Should the Jedi have trusted the Clone Army?

[@Sousabird]

I liked in Force Unleashed that Rahm Kita survived not by being some ultra badass or some daring escape, he just thought, "wow, these clones are weird, not trusting them", and survived over a decade or so longer because of it.

[@emberfist8347]

No he believed the Clones couldn’t think creatively despite it being a selling point of them over droids.

[@kingorange7739]

@@emberfist8347 Over droids, very much true.

[@emberfist8347]

@@kingorange7739 No the franchise shows the Clones are far superior and more creative than droids.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

​@@emberfist8347To battle droids, yes.

[@emberfist8347]

@@vetarlittorf1807 To any droid. Only Class Three Droids can hold legimiate conversations that don't devolve into a bad AI chatbot and they tend to limited by their programming.

[@dereklopez9060]

The Clone Army was pretty much a Trojan Horse that the Jedi didn't see the betrayal coming.

[@alexdeghost2729]

Now THIS is more like it. More of these video, please.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

Many Jedi didn't (in Legends at least). Including Rahm Kota, Quinlan Vos and Depa Billaba. Kota even refused to use clones altogether, instead he created his own militia whose veterans went on to join the Rebel Alliance.

[@emberfist8347]

Except you should note 2 out of three of them fell to the Dark Side and the one that didn’t just didn’t think Clones could be creative enough on the battlefield.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

@emberfist8347 Depa never fell, she just didn't like clones, and it's debatable if Vos truly fell due to his complexity.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

@emberfist8347 Wait, ignore the Depa Billaba comment. I just rememered she fell.

[@darkheartlost5826]

They didn’t have a choice They were trapped from the beginning. There was a threat emerging against the republic, which the Jedi have tied themselves to, the last thousand years. And they were out-manned, out-gunned, and strategically caught off guard. They had no choice but to trust the very army that was made to help them

[@JoRoq1]

Fully this. One thing that tends to get lost in the discussion is that the Republic didn’t have a standing army (just nominal police and guard forces, very different operations). Individual systems (and perhaps some united sectors) had their own militaries at various levels of strength and ability, and they were unwilling to let anyone else take command of their forces. (In the real world, this is an issue that NATO was structured to address. Everyone joining the treaty agreed that all joint efforts and actions would be under the top command of a designated US general, regardless of the nation the military force and resources came from.) The clone army was immediately available, and was not affiliated with any individual system. It was the first military force to be under the jurisdiction of the Republic government. Similarly, the Jedi became the generals and commanders over the army precisely because they were (at least nominally) independent of the member systems. There would be no outcry or recriminations over one race/system being given top control or too much control over the army, as the same jealousies that prevented mutual military cooperation would pit the Senators against each other in a power struggle for military control and dominance. Should the Jedi have been more wary of the clone army? Sure. But in the needs and chaos of war, things often have to be taken at face value because there isn’t time or resources available to both fully investigate and fully support the war effort. It can be argued that the Jedi prioritized the wrong thing (and that argument would be well-founded), but it was a decision between suspicions and the existence of the Republic. And the Jedi had already attached themselves to the Republic Senate as enforcers, so the choice to favor the existence of the Republic was a foregone conclusion.

[@petersanzen4106]

They could have used it without trusting them. They could have helped planetary defence forces etc, help trained militias etc.

[@neodigremo]

And by the time they have proof something dodgy is going on they have years of experiences with the clones, living sentient people, as trusted friends and allies. Even if the circumstances of the creation of the clone army were suspicious (and the fact they were investigating Palpatine by ROTS suggest they thought something was up) the clones themselves had done nothing wrong. And nothing to suggest they would be brainwashed into a mass murder of the Jedi. The Jedi were trying to protect the clones as much as the republic when they kept the news of their origins quiet.

[@AgeOfRamp]

They simply could of raised an army using planet defense forces and new recruits over using a clone army based on the genetics of a mercenary who tried to assassinate a Senator lmaoooo

[@neodigremo]

@@AgeOfRamp Again the issue is that it was not the Jedi's choice to do this. The army belonged to the Republic, who chose to use them. We sometime forget because they are on screen a lot but the Jedi are not autonomous. They work with and for the Republic and do have to listen to them, to the point that the Chancellor can force an appointment to the council on them. And it's not like anti-republic sentiment is genetic, so why not use the army of trained clones who seem totally loyal to the republic and are happy and eager to serve? At least that would be the logic used by Palpatine to sell it to the senate (assuming he doesn't override them with his emergency powers).

[@ciderdonuts]

Oh man!!!! A REAL Thor video!!!!! I have missed these greatly. Great video and great points made! Glad you’re back!

[@onliwankannoli]

Obviously in hindsight we know how that worked out for them. The genius of Palps’ plan was that they didn’t have a lot of choice.

[@Solo13508]

He basically put the Jedi in a no-win scenario If they do fight in the war: Well obviously that's how he killed them all and after the fact he was able to use their involvement to convince the galaxy of their plans to overthrow him. If the Jedi don't fight: Then they look absolutely terrible for not protecting the Republic and Palpatine can use that to turn the people against them.

[@macwelch8599]

Just because something is necessary, doesn’t make it trustworthy

[@oliveragag8576]

Fighting and dying alongside each other for years is what made them trustworthy.

[@Deuteromis]

Well of course they needed to be wary of the clones, but this was a galactic war they just entered. As stated at the beginning of Ep2 they were limited in numbers so how were the Jedi and even the Republic going to fend off the Separatists without them?

[@Schmidty1701]

It wasn't really up to the Jedi. The Senate (both Senate's 😉) would have demanded the use of the clones regardless of what the Jedi said.

[@liljenborg2517]

You also have to remember the timeline - any mistrust the Jedi might have had about the clones when the war started gets mollified by FIVE YEARS of fighting alongside one another in the war. They were comrades in arms who had one another’s backs - who had saved one another’s lives again and again. This is why Order 66 is such an emotional betrayal. Sideous had brilliantly manipulated the Jedi into a war, and the had to go to war with the soldiers they had instead of the ones they wanted. After five years, the Jedi fully trusted the clone troopers they fought side by side with. And then, because of deep programming the clone troopers weren’t even aware of, they murdered the Jedi they RESPECTED.

[@mandalorethemaximum1408]

7:03 To be fair, Jango is a bounty hunter. He doesn't care about the bureaucracy of the Senate, the Seperatist cause, the Jedi's role as guardians of the Republic, or the Sith grand plan to conquer the galaxy, all he wants is his pay check.

[@JoRoq1]

One thing that tends to get lost in the discussion is that the Republic didn’t have a standing army (just nominal police and guard forces, very different operations). Individual systems (and perhaps some united sectors) had their own militaries at various levels of strength and ability, and they were unwilling to let anyone else take command of their forces. (In the real world, this is an issue that NATO was structured to address. Everyone joining the treaty agreed that all joint efforts and actions would be under the top command of a designated US general, regardless of the nation the military force and resources came from.) The clone army was immediately available, and was not affiliated with any individual system. It was the first military force to be under the direct and sole jurisdiction of the Republic government. Similarly, the Jedi became the generals and commanders over the army precisely because they were (at least nominally) independent of the member systems. There would be no outcry or recriminations over one race/system being given top control or too much control over the army, as the same jealousies that prevented mutual military cooperation would pit the Senators against each other in a power struggle for military control and dominance. Should the Jedi have been more wary of the clone army? Sure. But in the needs and chaos of war, things often have to be taken at face value because there isn’t time or resources available to both fully investigate and fully support the war effort. It can be argued that the Jedi prioritized the wrong thing (and that argument would be well-founded), but it was a decision between suspicions and the existence of the Republic. And the Jedi had already attached themselves to the Republic Senate as enforcers, so the choice to favor the existence of the Republic was a foregone conclusion.

[@davidmount2483]

And no they shouldn't have trusted the clone army or at least they should have looked into more of where the clone really came from

[@alexdeghost2729]

They did tho in CW

[@finrodbrs]

Well, why did the Jedi trust the Clones by the end of the war? Because the had fought and died side by side for three years.

[@muskatDR]

They probably didnt, but had no choice "I dont trust these clones! Send them away" "Okay!" *1 hour and 2 rogers later* "The seperatist army is here" "...darn"

[@davidmount2483]

Also big fan of the clone wars era of star wars

[@djashovel]

Imagine If we got a what if series on the yuuzhan vong Starting Their invasion on The last year of the clone wars Imagine it being animated and rated MA

[@keegobricks9734]

I never liked the idea that Count Doku was in on the whole plan of palpatine's. I had thought during the first two movies that he legitimately believed in the separatist movement being the way to achieve control of the galaxy.

[@Insider887]

The whole situation was like giving a gun that shots backwards to a person desperate to defend themselves against an agressor who has a knife. Honestly the reason things happened the way they did wasn’t really because the Jedi were doing something wrong but because the Sith had rigged the game long before anyone started playing. It is easy to judge in hindsight without taking the facts of the situation att the moment into account. Because even if the origins of the clone army seemed strange, they didn’t really have the luxury to be picky. The facts were: war had started and they needed an army, a really big, well armed and well trained army and they needed it quickly. It was the duty of the Jedi Order to protect the people of the galaxy, the army was under the jurisdiction of the Galactic Senate and they were going to use it whether the Jedi liked it or not. It’s not like they could go to the Sith Lord and his council of business tycoons saying "hey could you guys please stop attacking until we are ready?" With a galactic war to deal with the best of the Jedi had to focus on saving lives and preventing the fall of democracy, further more in the clone wars we see that they tried to investigate some of the suspicions that they had but again like I said before the Sith had already rigged the game long before anyone ever started playing.

[@kingorange7739]

That would be an understandable sentiment early on, however as the war continued and the Republic found its footing other options would have existed for them and the Jedi. More importantly that logic wouldn’t hold up once the Jedi discovered the Sith created the army.

[@Insider887]

@@kingorange7739 There was no other options unless the Separatists were willing to sit down and patiently wait for the Republic to raise and reorganise an entire new army. Quit making excuses to justify nonsense argument.

[@kingorange7739]

@@Insider887 As mentioned, that is understandable early on. But it is laughable if you think the Republic could not or would not begin works to build an army composed of civilian recruits. And that could be done while the clones are fighting during the earlier years. Hell, even disregarding the ethical concerns the clone troopers present (IE Slavery), this is something the Republic should be doing anyways, as not only was the clone army severely outnumbered by the droids, but on top of that, should Kamino fall, their entire military output would be compromised.

[@Tomtit_Andy]

I thought a lot after watching the video. And want to add, that in my opinion - Yoda and Windu are responsible. Especially Windu is responsible for war to start at the first place. Jedi have infiltrated Geonosis three times, plus full scale invasion by the end of the movie. 1. Obi-Wan was first. But he had an excuse of leading an investigation. Bad, but not that critical - he didn't kill anybody, just sneaked around. 2. Anakin was second. He could be excused to a degree - young and hot headed. But Padme - she was a senator and had to understand the consequences of them infiltrating Geonosis. Their execution was their own fault. 3. But Windu... What he even was thinking?1 He brought an army of Jedi and literally threaten locals with a lethal force. No diplomacy, no negation - nothing. Just street forward lightsaber to the throat. I can understand him: Windu probably was planning to scare out neimoidians. But he knew that Dooku was there. Windu had to know, that he cannot scare Dooku. So the whole Windu move was stupid. Extremely stupid. Heroic - yes. But stupid. And Yoda... To me he had no choice at that point. He had either to let his Jedi to be executed or to grab an army and hope he can capture Dooku and separatist all tougher at once. At that point Yoda was choosing between arey of bad options. But Yoda had to understand that in case of unsuccess, way more people will die. And Yoda had to be suspicious about clone army and "convenient" timing of that army appearance. While I am extremely pro-Jedi, it was their fault war has started - they were active aggressors by the end of second movie.

[@GGBlaster]

The Jedi did investigate. They even tried to in AotC, but the Senate moved early to recruit the Clone Army, and the Jedi were forced to fight, despite their protests (in AotC no less) that they weren’t supposed to be fighting in a war. And even afterward, the Jedi did investigate, and found that Dooku was directly involved with the Clone Army’s creation. They knew the Sith were up to something, but they couldn’t figure out exactly when and how their plan would unfold. However, the Jedi would have been wise to start discreetly transporting some of their order to off-world safe havens, as a safeguard against the worst case scenario.

[@kingorange7739]

I mean the Jedi weren't really forced to fight.

[@GGBlaster]

@ they were. The Jedi knew the Sith were leading the CIS, and if the Jedi refused to fight, the Sith would simply sweep the galaxy and destroy the Jedi. And that’s exactly what Palpatine would’ve done; that’s what’s so masterful about his plan. The Jedi were gonna be destroyed regardless of whether they fought or not.

[@kingorange7739]

@@GGBlaster I mean not really. The Sith weren't in the position to do so. It would also go against Palpatine's agenda. Since Palpatine never intended for the CIS to win the war.

[@GGBlaster]

@@kingorange7739 The Sith absolutely could have - the CIS had trillions, perhaps even quadrillions of droids. Wouldn’t have been Sidious’ original plan, but that’s why it would’ve been plan B. But that aside, had the Jedi not fought in the war, public perception would’ve soured towards the Jedi, who had the power to protect the civilians being slaughtered in the conflict. They would’ve been branded as traitors and driven off of Coruscant, if not destroyed. Palpatine had control of both Republic and CIS governments, armies, and propaganda machines. It didn’t matter what the Jedi did - they lost as soon as Palpatine was elected Chancellor. He could’ve done whatever he wanted, and the Jedi were doomed.

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

I'm not a hater of the channel or fans. I need to say the illogical choices or jumping to correct conclusions comes from the fact that the prequels were poorly written. The themes are great, the characterization (mostly) intentional, but lets be real, the prequels are riddled with strange or weak cause and effect. "When the facts are obscure, it is better to express doubt than argue an bullshit case." ~ Augustine of Hippo, 426 A.D.

[@nichlaschristensson1055]

This is something that pops up when I see the prequels as well. Didn't reakt to it thee first time, was more hyped for new Star Wars. But it has been a question in my mind ever time I see the prequels. They never investigated who was behind it all who payed etc. Great question and answer. For me it is more a small issue that I can ignore when I watch those great movies

[@neilcharran5314]

Thor is right, you have to make assumptions. It adds to the fun of Star Wars but also the frustration. As we are all well aware George much prefers to show rather than tell and that for George dialogue needs to be in a certain rhythm within the movie and within in a scene regardless if it’s clunky. If it fits a motif it doesn’t matter what was said just the cadence. For example, Senator Amidala saying she thinks it’s Count Dooku was to get to the dialogue about him being a Jedi and not about what makes her think that. From Attack of the Clones movie and no other source the assumptions we have are: 1) The Jedi are well funded and have an abundance of resources. Just the scene in the library itself is enough to confirm that. 2) The clones were ordered and already funded under the auspices of a Jedi. Regardless of Sifo Dyas’ actual authority he did it over ten years ago bought and paid for in full. Further, the Clone Army was only supposed to be released to the Jedi Order. 3) A former well-respected Jedi, defended pretty much until the end of the movie, Count Dooku is leading the opposition separatist army. By these three points alone the Jedi were involved whether they wanted to be or not. I get it, the use of a bounty hunter as the source of the clones is super sus but even Obi Wan at the very end said the Jedi were lucky to have the clones to fight the separatists army. I still love AOTC if anything for seeing Yoda be badass for two spectacular minutes. My audience cheered like I haven’t seen in movies in a long time when Yoda walked in and when he dropped his cane and Force pulled his lightsaber barrel-chested we went absolutely nuts! 😆 Great memories. May the Force be with you all, always.

[@jdstudios1912]

The jedi order didn't really have much choice. The clones arrived just in time to save the jedi on geonosis. Then immediately after that a full blown galactic war raged across the galaxy. The republic called on the order and, bound to the senate as they were they had no choice but to answer. Not only that but to the orders knowledge the clone army was created by a jedi so they had little to no time to question it in-between battles and war strategy.

[@kingorange7739]

Maybe not immediately, however the war went on for quite some time and the Jedi were given plenty of chance to investigate the matter during it.

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

I swear I'm not trying to be hateful by saying this, i need to say that the illogical choices or jumping to correct conclusions come from the fact that the prequels were poorly written. The themes may have been good, and the characterization intentional, and the intent may have been to put the jedi in a difficult situation, but lets be real, the prequels are riddled with strange cause and effect. "When the facts are obscure, it is better to express doubt than argue an bullshit case." ~ Augustine of Hippo, 426 A.D.

[@GrievousReborn]

Hey Thor what is your opinion on why despite the fact that the night sisters use the dark side of the force the Jedi didn't do anything about them? I personally think it's because they kept themselves and didn't bother anybody else but I would love to know why you think they didn't.

[@emberfist8347]

The lore already answered this. There was multiple clans of lightside Witches which lived on Dathomir and per an agreement by the Jedi, Dathomir is their jurisdiction and they are the ones who handle the Nightsisters.

[@ThanksHermione]

​@@emberfist8347 You'd think that the jedi would at least keep an eye on them or have those who were under there jurisdiction give them status updates.

[@StarWarsOpinions-z1g]

A passive Jedi order feels at odds with how it's described in A New Hope. To quote Obi-Wan, "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."

[@BelieveOntheLordJesusChrist836]

When given the choice to either stand with what is convenient or “necessary” and your convictions, to choose to stand on your convictions and morals can definitely be difficult. The Jedi seemed to have failed in this sense, I hope to learn from that error and stand on my convictions and morals given the opportunity.

[@daruekeller]

tyrannis was buddies with syfo, they ordered the clones together, after syfo got shunted aside and disposed of, Tyrannis planned to use the clones as part of his forces when killing palpy. but palpy found out and somehow got the implants added to the design. so originally the order66 program was for palpy to take over Tyrannis's clones, he was the only primary target, but just specified as 'jedi' - once the republic took over the clones, and shouldn't dookoo be a little surprised when HIS clones attack him and are working for the jedi? anyway order 66 eventually finds "broader application" but likely had to be implemented not too long after the death of dookoo. and so palpy in the form of the chancellor may well have leaned hard on the Jedi to accept the use of the clones and even to make more. dookoo always planned to betray Palpy and use the dark side for "good" but yeah, plans like that is how ya get corrupted

[@atlasdesnyder4747]

I think that the Jedi could have -- should have, even -- been more proactive in investigating the origins and intent behind the Clone army, especially since they had a couple incidents that pretty much demanded deeper probing (the Sifo Dyas crash discovery and the bizarre behavior modification chips scandal) before shrugging their shoulders and letting the force take the wheel. Even with a war on, the Jedi should be able to muster the resources at any point to pursue these issues, whether at the start of the war or at any other given point, which they should realize could pose a direct material and existential threat to the Republic itself. However, I think their unwillingness to do so is an indicator of how clouded their judgment is and how warped their priorities are. There are lots of things the Jedi could have or should have done, whether they would have been fruitful or not in the end, but didn't because they became so totally focused on the war, on the overt threat of Count Dooku and the Separatists, and neglecting their underlying duties to the force and their own order, even. So the idea that they didn't do these things, that they were fools to ignore these problems, even when the story itself doesn't quite make total sense or flow well in all its aspects, does work and make sense for the larger story arc and it's themes. There is also the reality that a lot of this perception is likely the result of some poor writing and execution, even if we like and respect the products we got (the movies and the Clone Wars show) quite a bit. Padme, for example, might have been better served as a character, and the plot made more sensible, if she was a proponent of the Military Creation Act, having seen the malevolent, out-of-control militant factions in the Outer and Mid rim personally and up close, and therefore wanting the Republic to be able to take action to stop these sorts of forces where they couldn't really in her case before. This would have made the Count Dooku accusation more reasonable and highlighted the Jedi lack of insight and preparedness in, regard to their unwillingness to see what Dooku is capable of, much better, without compromising the plot and perhaps improving it. Padme could have then come to regret her support of the act over the course of the war, driving a political wedge between her and Anakin and having her sow the seeds of rebellion through her growing disillusionment with the senate and the overly empowered executive. I suspect Lucas wanted to have Padme as the contrasting political ideal to Palpatine, a decisive and strong-willed advocate of all things good and kind; a staunch believer in democracy, proponent of peace, and anti-militarist, even if that latter position or others she takes conflicts with her character and experiences up to that point, and screws up the plot a bit. So, the wants and ideals of the writers can easily distort the story and character development in ways that make them seem idiotic or simply contrived in various ways.

[@JaalKiriam]

Hey Thor. I've wondered this one since 2002 and your video reminded me of it. Did the Kaminoans design and build the fleets and ground vehicles for the G.A.R.? Maybe the Prequels should have included Raith Seinar or some other industrialist to provide the materiel for the Republic's side of the war, in addition to being yet another party to have their own stake in the Clone Wars. Any thoughts?

[@Warrior-Of-Virtue]

One way I think this could have worked better would be to have it that the Clone Army was actually created decades or even centuries ago as a contingency plan and has been kept in stasis ever since and the debate in the Senate is over whether or not it should be activated. This way it wouldn't come out of nowhere and would thus seem far less suspicious.

[@mh-472]

Hey Thor, this last video got me wondering if perhaps parts of Clone Wars Season Six may have been a mistake. I am of course referring to the first arc where the inhibitor chips are discovered and the episode where the Jedi investigate the death of Sifo Dias. In the former case the Jedi learn that all the clones have these inhibitor chips but ultimately end up accepting Palpatine's bogus story as to their function. In the latter the Jedi learn that Lord Tyranus and Count Dooku are one in the same, which thereby proves that the Sith are in fact playing both sides in the Clone Wars. In my view these revelations took things a bit too far. They make the Jedi look bad for knowing all this and still getting outdone in the end regardless. And they make the Sith look bad for allowing their grand plan to come so close to being unraveled. Would you agree that Season Six maybe took things too far with its revelations or do you think they were a good idea after all?

[@cklambo]

Question: Why did the republic not have an army already? Seems a big oversight for a galactic government.

[@JoRoq1]

Military forces and technologies were owned and controlled by the individual systems, and perhaps some unified sectors. The systems were very jealous of their militaries, and refused to relinquish any control to anyone else. The Republic government was more of a confederacy or parliamentary style structure, not a top-down control structure. (That was the Empire.) The Republic could only do what the member systems allowed it to do, via the Senate votes. The Trade Federation’s independent blockade of Naboo is the perfect example of this. The Republic had no direct jurisdiction over the Federation’s military decisions, hence why any action taken by the Republic had to be determined through the Senate. The main problem with establishing a Republic military is who would be in control of it. Whoever was selected to be the commander of the military would be seen as a representative of his home system or race, making it a political fight in the Senate over who would have that influence and be able to exploit it as those same inter-system jealousies (or agreements) kicked in. Experience and merit of a commander candidate would be secondary considerations, at best.

[@albertanmotorcyclist6419]

The detailed explanation above me is great. For a modern equivalent think of the EU as being analogous to the republic. The EU itself doesn’t have a ton of power, which is mostly concentrated in the national governments of member countries. While these member countries have militaries, there is no EU military at the disposal of the EU leadership to deal with a crisis. Additionally, we know from the opening crawl that the republic was in a century of peace, there was no need for a standing army to guard against threats

[@theaterlightman89]

Just started watching the original trilogy, it hits different now that there has been some space between me watching the Disney trilogy, ot is the best, the prequels are gems, disney tried to fax a color photo and couldn't figure out why it turned flat

[@CloneScavengerVulpin8389]

Some members of the republic and jedi order probably thought jango was playing both sides for more profit.

[@darrengaroutte7744]

I always thought it would make more sense for the republic to be using the droids as they are something that could be constructed quickly whereas the separatists have had time to gather forces and why wouldn't they want a bunch of Mandalorian clones as the Mandalorians were historically able to defeat the republic and the jedi.

[@starwarsnewsandmemes8289]

Hey Thor, This video got me to think of something: It's known that Palpatine as the leader of both sides (ruling the Separatists as Sidious.) If this is the case, why not, as Palpatine, have the Republic (without clones) openly become toleration, then as Sidious, declare that the Republic, and by extension, the "evil chancellor Palpatine" be defeated? This would have eliminated the need for a clone army, gotten the job done earlier, easier and cheaper, while also appearing possibly even more like a moral saviour. Hell, instead of having to get rid of the droids, like was needed with the clones, they could simply be reprogrammed to act, effectively as slaves. Its well known that the average citizen doesn't really know or care about the differences between jedi and sith, so why not rule openly as the "Benevolent Darth Sidious who saved the galaxy from the evil Chancellor Sheev Palpatine"?

[@TheManFromWaco]

#HeyThor Is there an in-universe explanation for why the Sith give themselves obviously evil-sounding names like Sidious, Tyrannus, Bane, and Maul? Yes, these guys are indisputably the villains, but even Satan tries to pass himself off as an angel. My personal theory is that such names are taken from the ancient language of the Sith species, and thus might not have the same connotations as they would have in Galactic Basic, but I wanted to know if this bit of lore has ever been addressed. Thanks!

[@eds1942]

Palpatine: “I will not have this Republic which has stood for a thousand years (sic) be divided!” Mace Windu: “The Jedi are keepers of the peace, not warriors.” P: “Master Yoda, what does the Force tell you? Will it come to war?” Yoda: “Hmm. The Darkside clouds everything.” MW: “Well, we are going to need an army.” P: “Great I’ll a motion forward in the Senate to collect emergency funds to build an army immediately.” -- Obi-Wan: (Paraphrasing his reports) “I have traced the lead on that bounty hunter behind the assassination attempt to a planet called Kamino, where they are building an army of clones based on him for the Republic, authorized by Master Sifo-Dyas 10 years ago. A Sith Lord by the name Tyranus was also apparently attached to the program whom I have tracked to a planet outside of Republic space called Geonosis where they are also building an army of droids in secret for the Separatists.” Padme & Anakin: (Text to the Jedi) Master Obi-Wan has been captured and being held on Geonosis, by Count Dooku. -- Mace and Yoda: “Hey let’s go and try out our new totally not suspect army by launching an attack on a separatists aligned world outside of the Republic’s jurisdiction which is almost guaranteed to start a civil war if not a galactic war. We can use as a cover story that we were there to rescue Obi-Wan, Anakin and Senator Amidala.” “ ohh! Like fun that sounds! Begun the Clone Wars has!” --- Obi-Wan: “So, While I was being held captive by Dooku, he confessed to me that he is Darth Tyranus and that another Sith Lord controls the Senate. We should maybe write all of this down so we don’t forget. Just saying,..” Yoda: “Already forgot, I have. Drag this plotline out, with a TV show, we should as if Dooku never revealed this.”

[@andrewhaddad6376]

Im curious if theres any source material about Yoda's trip to Kamino. Im sure thatd be a neat interaction

[@joyoustye2326]

Kinda random but I always wondered how the clones thought of Jango being their enemy. What would've happened if the clones landed in the arena while Jango was still alive?

[@vetarlittorf1807]

Jango wouldn't have intervened. In fact, had he survived, he probably would've sought sanctuary in Hutt space since he was a wanted man.

[@mikechris6208]

I think it makes sense why Padme believes Dooku is behind her assasination. Padmé being the Republic leader to the opposition to militarization and her push for diplomacy make her a direct threat to Dooku’s goal of deepening the Republic-Separatist divide and Dooku’s desire to solidify his control over the sepratists. At this point, the Separatists haven’t formally aligned with the Trade Federation or the Commerce Guild to build a military, so there’s still a chance they could rejoin the Republic through diplomacy. As Padmé later states, she believes that if the Separatists feel threatened-such as by the Republic creating a military-they’re less likely to return. Therefore Padme rightfully deduces that count Dooku wants the sepratists to feel threatened so they are less likely to rejoin the republic. Therefore he must be behind her assasination.

[@captaindc3889]

This makes me want to ask something interesting: Is it possible to rewrite the prequels, but only to iron out its flaws? (Mostly keep ROTS the same)

[@qwefg3]

For me I say it is messy. The moment the clones were found they had two choices... Leave them in the dark and never use them which may leave Count Duko to go back and pick up a SECOND army to invade you with. The clone wars were rough with both sides having an army. If the Separatists had simply used both armies they would have won. As for the Jedi using the army... It is messy because they hoped to end the war before it started by taking out the Count and capturing the higher ups... Which failed. After that you would have to convince the Republic why this army you suddenly have can't be used for this war that is now at your doorstep. Leaving the Jedi to work with the Republic... Or to not join the war effort. Not joining is messy. The amount of clones on the field means that at least 19/20 Jedi are stuck dealing with clones. Not joining the war at all leaves a lot of angry senators questioning why the Jedi helped start a war without offering to help end it. That first conflict with finding the clones is where the major action would shape the galaxy in using them or not using them. With the bitter knowledge that if you do not use them... Someone else will.

[@thomasb.anderson8113]

its the difference between seeing every Clone individually and a collective force of war

[@daruekeller]

well, I've long thought it STRANGE that the Jedi were supportive in any way of this perversion of Life, I think their "use" of the clones was a major issue for The Force. granted it's on the record that they kinda tried to treat them with reasonable decency and promoted their person good, but still... making more batches would be a step too far. that said, yeah it's a stretch. presumably off camera there was a lot of checking on the clones, but just never detected the implants

[@theimperialist2686]

Rahm Kota definitely didn't trust the clones.

[@emberfist8347]

He just believed they couldn’t think creatively. In other words he was a bigoted Jedi who saw them as living droids.

[@kingorange7739]

@@emberfist8347 In many ways he turned out to be right. Also Kota had every right not to trust them.

[@theimperialist2686]

@emberfist8347 Not really, a massive army that conveniently pops out for you should have been ringing alarm bells.

[@emberfist8347]

@@theimperialist2686 The Army was ordered by one of their own.

[@theimperialist2686]

@@emberfist8347 One of their own, who was ordered by the new master he turned to. At least get all the details in if you're going to do this.

[@emberfist8347]

Yes they should. The in-universe sources don’t blame the Jedi for Order 66 just Palpatine. The Essential Guide to Warfare for example has Palpatine’s rise to power written about by Kol Skywalker who doesn’t blame the Jedi for anything except for pushing Anakin to Palpatine.

[@kingorange7739]

The Jedi shouldn't had. First of all, the notion of just a convenient army coming from virtually out of nowhere would already raise red flags. Combine that with the fact they later learn in TCW season 6 that the clone army was orchestrated by the sith (Dooku specifically) and it would become apparent that the clones were going to be used against the Jedi in one form or another.

[@emberfist8347]

@@kingorange7739 They didn't know it was the Sith yet. They didn't know Dooku was called Darth Tyrannus or the timeline of when he became a Sith after leaving the Jedi Order.

[@kingorange7739]

@ they did know by season 6 of TCW.

[@emberfist8347]

@@kingorange7739 No they just knew Tyrannus was an alias Dooku used not that it was Darth Tyrannus.

[@kingorange7739]

@ and they know Dooku is a sith. So again, by Season 6, they know that the sith directly orchestrated the creation of the clone army.

[@istari0]

It's unfortunate that Lucas didn't do a better job of addressing many of these questions in the PT itself. We are just left to speculate on possible explanations on these matters. My view is that the Republic and the Jedi were caught completely off-guard and unprepared for the outbreak of war and the realization that the Separatists had a formidable military of their own already. There was no choice but to use the Clone Army and even if the Jedi had balked at it for some reason, the Republic wouldn't have. And my belief is that without the Jedi, the Republic would have still lost the war even with the Clone Army.

[@JoRoq1]

The Separatist Alliance was structured around a mutual aid treaty. This allowed (and required) them to collaborate using the individual member system militaries for mutual effort and defense during hostilities. The systems remaining in the Republic did not have a mutual aid treaty. They were highly jealous and protective of their individual militaries, and unwilling to relinquish control to anyone else. The Republic had no direct authority over the system militaries, which is why the Trade Federation was able to independently set a blockade on Naboo without immediate consequence. The clone army was the first military force under the direct and sole authority of the Republic government. The Jedi were chosen as the generals and commanders because they were (at least nominally) independent from the member systems and thus facially neutral.

[@djashovel]

If republic didn't use the clone Trippers Having Trillions of people Of the republic as your Army

[@emberfist8347]

Except that would require conscription which wouldn’t look good. Even the Empire never conscripted people until after Endor when they were stuck with no other choices.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

Clone Trippers? Is that a new unit of clones I don't know about?

[@skepticalsmurf]

hmmm,that’s a DAMN good question,on how the Clone Army came into being prior to the conflict with the Separatists,when you think about it,it makes no sense 🤔

[@emberfist8347]

Not really the lore makes it clear Sifo-Dyas who ordered the Clone Army was particularly skilled at seeing into the future even compared to other Jedi.

[@skepticalsmurf]

@ many thanks for the 411,it’s been ages since I watched any of the prequels 😉

[@ThanksHermione]

Hey Thor, why do you think that during the prequels that the jedi took so long to be suspicious of Palpatine? Couldn't they pick up on his affinity with the darkside? Sometimes force users can even sense the emotions of others.

[@A21-EDITS21]

I really don't understand why some people dont like the control chips. Like, it makes the clones hard to resist Order 66 even if they tried. In legends they just chose not to do it if they didn't want too nthe chips are a way that the jedi will actually die and be off guard. Like its dumb they knew about order 66 in legends to be honest and it didnt make sense.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

I don't think you understand the complexity of Order 66 in Legends. The reason people hate the chips is because they remove the verisimilitude of the event for the sake of cheaply victimizing the clones because TCW chickened out of expanding on clones like Slick.

[@colinbielat8558]

The clone wars was cold unfeeling machine verse cold unfeeling machine. The clones and droids were the same, both made in factories and programed with complete obedience and deference to authority. The chips take away from the theme of the conflict, that both sides make use of massed produced armies of slaves, and make the whole point of order 66 the equivalent of a switch being flicked. The beauty of order 66 without the chips is that there was no malice, no hatred, nothing the jedi could pick up on, they were breed and trained to such an extent that when the order was made they reacted without a second thought because that is what they were made to do. There is sense of the classical Greek tragedy that way as the betrayal is never expected and comes swiftly and totally. But with the chips the professionalism of the clones and their deference to authority is removed because they have to make the clones into the reluctant sympathetic pawns, even though they were always pawns. It cheapens the story and it's all because they had to humanize the clones, which in the long run damaged the prequel era.

[@IHateHoldo]

Hey Thor, how do you think the Kaminoans would've reacted if the jedi refused to use their clones to fight the war?

[@Ptaaruonn]

Rahm Kota knew the risks.

[@kingorange7739]

Yes and no.

[@Eh_D-Man]

To steel man the Jedi here, the separatists were going to invade planets and go on the offensive. The Republic had no chance of getting a comparable army trained and prepared to combat the blitz that the CIS was about to unleash on the galaxy. The CIS had cheap vast numbers that required no training who don’t need to sleep or eat, making them ready at the drop of the hat. The Republic would’ve had to mobilize, likely with a very unpopular draft, and frantically try to train people as the CIS descended upon planets in the outer rim making their way inward. The Republic, and by extension the Jedi, then had little choice but to accept the extremely suspicious army that had been thrown in their lap because to not do so would be at the least political suicide for the senate, and likely result in the loss of hundreds of Republic worlds to CIS control if not a total collapse of the republic as Grievous sweeps across the Galaxy. As far as Jedi involvement they likely saw it as an attempt to try to understand and wrangle this now massive and suspicious army from within and also they had been peacekeepers for centuries so they likely saw this as an extension of their duty. Finally, as it relates to the security problems apart from starting with it, the revelations in season 6 of CW happen too late in the war. By that point it’s too late for them to do anything as they are already in the throes of the Outer Rim Sieges which were attritional campaigns. If they pull out there the war likely ends in a separatist victory as they take over the outer rim. There are real life conspiracies that in our own wars that if the information was 100% confirmed it would’ve broken morale and led to chaos. It’s the equivalent of Pearl Harbor being allowed to happen or 9/11 being an inside job coming out as 100% confirmed correct. Honestly I think that’s why I love the prequels more and more as time goes on because as convoluted as they can be they get convoluted geopolitics right.

[@kingorange7739]

I mean the thing is, allowing the Separatists control of the Outer Rim is a preferable option for literally allowing a Republic betrayal to slap them from behind.

[@miragewizard]

The Clones were a very expensive gift that "somehow" fell into the Jedi's hands. At the time, the Clone army seemed to solve an immediate problem and thus, were used from that point forward. But you are correct - it shouldn't take a Jedi to wonder how they were funded, who was really behind requesting their creation and for what purpose they were being made. Of course, George could have used the Jedi's inaction as a political allusion to what could happen to Democracy.

[@marknovak6498]

Yeah, we have an army of clones, we don't know where they come from but let's use them. head-scratcher. I kept thinking this is the most cartoonish part of the prequels, well at least one of them.

[@fezenclop]

The problem with the Jedi was that they were right there in the center of the Republic government. If they had been somewhere else, where the whims of the government weren’t always whispering in their ear, they probably wouldn’t have been dragged in to lead the army. And the young Jedi would have been a lot safer.

[@DallasHuybregts]

Hey Thor, is the technological stagnation issue ever explored in Star Wars? It seems like there's not much difference in the basic fundamental Star Wars technologies like hyper-drive or droid intelligence from era to era...even separated by hundreds or thousands of years.

[@Steel-101]

Yeah I still find it bizarre how the Jedi Council didn’t have ANY backup plans when it comes to the clone army. I’m not saying they should be cruel to the Clones but still you have all of these fantastic Jedi Republic resources. Use them!! Lol 😂

[@emberfist8347]

What back up plan would be needed?

[@ledanoir1239]

Wasnt It Gunray instead of dooku the one who actually wanted Padmé dead?

[@emeldy2687]

The Jedi were simply backed into a corner. They were outplayed. If the Jedi did nothing, Sith influence would have spread throughout the galaxy unchecked. The only choice was to use the clones while attempting to uncover the conspiracy in such a way that they would be able to convince the galactic senate of the truth, but in the end they were just too late.

[@Apollo1989V]

They should have been more wary of the clones after the truth about Dooku was revealed to them.

[@oriongear2499]

If I were a Jedi Knight or Master, I'd just stay at the Jedi Temple and not sign on with the GAR.

[@kingorange7739]

Agreed. At the very least I would take the Kota route and take a civilian army instead.

[@marsy24-o6b]

hey Thor, I've been dying to know your take on what (at least I understand) to be the jedi using their padawans as child soldiers. Through Ashoka's story in all the media she's been in, this is made pretty damn clear. Not only is using child soldiers a literal war crime, I honestly can't see myself defending the jedi's use of them and the clone army from a purely moral perspective. Thousands of human beings with their own hearts and minds LITERALLY being manufactured to fight and die just does not align with the values of the jedi. It's always confused me, especially as a fellow jedi defender. Would love to know your take on all this.

[@emberfist8347]

War crimes? You want to talk about Padawans being a war crime when the CIS is using every WMD in the book, killing civilians by the planet-load and generally using tactics even the Nazis would balk at?

[@marsy24-o6b]

@@emberfist8347 just cuz i'm criticizing one side doesn't mean I'm pardoning the other :)

[@emberfist8347]

@@marsy24-o6b It kinda does because the laws of war only apply when both sides agree to it. The moment the CIS started committing war crimes, they were open to reprisals.

[@alicjacaban2226]

Flaws od lightside are naivety and stagnation i guess.also Yoda was terrible leader.

[@BRONZALiVE]

On top of everything said, In the clone wars animated show, the Jedi actually discover the inhibitor chips and that one malfunctioned and a clone killed a Jedi as a result, also in the films they discovered that a mysterious Sith Lord is in charge of the republic and that the clone army was made right under the jedis noses…. Soo all this info and in the show and the films they just sweep it under the rug making them look like even bigger idiots then they ever did in the movies thanks to the show.

[@neodigremo]

There is something of a fundamental misunderstanding here. The Jedi are not using the clone army. The republic is doing so. The Jedi were drafted in to be generals and whilst they certainly could have said no the decided, in the moment, it was the best thing to do. The Jedi may have been running things in the field but they were never in charge of things. Not in an ultimate sense. Palpatine was. So the Jedi couldn’t refuse to use the clones, recruit droids or anything else any more than the general in the field and say “I’m gonna use these conscripts and not the army my government sends me.”

[@oscarb4822]

Wow it's a perfect solution to our current problem that has appeared out of nowhere. We can put it right here next to the giant wooden horse the Greeks gifted us.

[@morgansheppy1584]

This is where the prequels fall apart for me. “I followed the assassin to this spooky storm planet where some weird ass aliens gave me an army of clones??? - of the aforementioned assassin? lol” - Obiwan

[@jlassijlali290]

Honest i think the jedi simple couldn't say no to the wars or will simple blow to their face too much for peace keeper when wars start and they bale on it LOL

[@TaraCicora]

The simple answer is 'no'. The more nuanced answer, they never totally did, and considering the situation they didn't have a good choice one way or the other. However, their response (as an Order) is the picture of complacency. Because while each individual had valid concerns, as an Order, however, if it's for "The Republic," they figured it was ok. Just like how they went from truly providing and protecting the individuals in the galaxy to deciding that being glorified bodyguards and supporting the Senate and then later being generals for the Republic is better for the good 'of all'. Mace in particular is guilty of this. The ROTS novelization talks about how he tells younger Jedi that they shouldn't fight for 'peace' but for the Republic/civiliation. This is why he follows a literal Sith lord into battle for years before truly becoming suspicious. Yoda is even worse, he finds the easiest way to handle this is to simply win the war, and then figure out the Sith. Yoda is the one who tells them to stay the course. He asks fewer questions than Mace does and even shuts down Obi-Wan at the end of AOTC. While I don't believe that the Jedi should have abandoned their war efforts, they should have been asking internally more questions. By the time the Jedi discover the truth about the Army, they should have understood how sunk their boat was and begun contingency plans. Especially after Yoda has his walkabout, though that would also include him having to level with the council instead of making the decisions for them. The Republic and Order were both sunk, but they could have saved more people but understanding it, instead of reacting to everything that the Sith gave to them.

[@darthcaedus9130]

Rohm Kota sure didnt

[@davidmount2483]

Which makes him one of the smartest Jedi lol

[@emberfist8347]

He just didn’t believe they would be creative thinkers as advertised.

[@Ravenfanatic5]

It worked out for him

[@TheRandomViewer-zv4bv]

Short answer, No. Long answer; still no, as they really should have focused on finding out why Sifo-Dyas ordered the army to be created, and who Tyranus was. And should have looked beyond the war, knowing that there was still a Second Sith Lord out there. But they did not have a choice. They were forced to work with them politically. The Jedi became de facto generals for the Clones, and with the Republic under attack by the Seprstists the Jedi had no choice. And by the time they realised Tyranus was Count Dooku, and therefore the Sith creates the Clones, it was too late to turn back. They couldn't just tell the public the truth as it would cause panic. In the end they had to play the game. But even they could not have predicted the Clones turning on them, as the Clones were never hostile to the Jedi. And any hint to what was to come was covered up well by Sidious. The clones followed them, they genuinely respected them. And this is what made Order 66 so effective. The Clones were authentic to the Jedi, never hiding any ill intentions because they had none. Not until they were forced to turn, right at the last second.

[@kingorange7739]

Except for the time a clone literally went mad and killed a Jedi general, or the fact that Fives was also going mad and making a case about the inhibitor chips being sketchy as all hell. Truth be told, by the time of Dooku's reveal of Tyranus, the Jedi should had known that the clone army was going to be used against them and should had began works to either withdraw from the war or at least develop contingency plans to protect themselves.

[@ИванСнежков-з9й]

In all fairness, this is exactly what I didn't like in the second film. This was way too convoluted and absurd. It simply made no sense. Now I would say that it is a classing trope of "Idiot plot".

[@chrisperlaky8715]

The Jedi were galactically stupid, beyond Special Edition Han Solo waiting for Greedo to shoot first stupid. No matter how one slices the arm from a Wampa the Republic started the war. Despite leading the CIS, Dooku was first and foremost the apprentice of Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sidious, making him a double agent for the Republic who co-opted the Separatists out of the gate. Secondly, putting aside the factional manipulation orchestrated by Palpatine and Dooku, the Republic again started the war through proxy, specifically the Jedi. Obi-Wan, acting as a sanctioned spy for the Jedi Council, aggressed against the Sovereign State of Geonosis, which was an independent world outside of the Republic's borders. The Geonosians were within their legal rights to sentence Obi-Wan to death for espionage. Adding insult to injury, Yoda fired the first shot of the Clone Wars by doubling down and invading Geonosis with a newly discovered, highly dubious, and barely legalized Clone Army, the creation of which was just approved as opposed to a proper declaration of war authorizing its use outside of Republic Space. Never underestimate a government to approve war ex post facto and never underestimate George Lucas' ability to mischaracterize and butcher a paragon archetype like Yoda. The invasion of Geonosis was the real moment the Empire was created. Palpatine's declaration is Episode 3 was mere formality.

[@kingorange7739]

CIS you mean

[@andrewbirkett698]

Obviously fooking not

[@Americancupcake]

Mensa member

[@petersanzen4106]

The jedi trusting the clones makes no sense what so ever! Its one of my biggest complains of the prequels because it so obvious and affects so much.

[@emberfist8347]

It makes sense the clones prove themselves as loyal to the Jedi.

[@petersanzen4106]

@@emberfist8347 Not to me, beacuse the clones are still just clones, they are "programmed" to be soldiers. Everything about them came from their "programming", their loyalty, their combat ability etc. They have no choice if they wish to be in the war or not. I know Rex says they are diffrent from droids because they are not programmed but he is kidding himself there. There are exceptions, one clone that is a traitor and one that actually quite fighting but it is just blamed on their creation. The jedi know this but it feels like they pretend as if its not true.

[@petersanzen4106]

@@emberfist8347 ​ The problem is that everyone thinks about the clones as "people" they are not. Every good thing about them, their loyalty, their comraderie their willingnes to fight is just programmed into them. They are not individuals that choose to fight, they have no choice anout what they wanna do, they are essentially brainwashed soldiers. Even the few exceptions that come up, one that stopped fighting, one traitor, Bad Batch, are explained by faults in their creations, they are anamolies, nothing more.

[@emberfist8347]

@@petersanzen4106 No the clones are individuals. This is made clear. The one who chose not to fight weren't faultly they just used their creative thinking as that is what separates them from droids. They can think for themselves and therefore are individuals.

[@petersanzen4106]

@@emberfist8347 they have individuality but always within their own programing. They never have any wants, dreams or desires outside of the war which they are programmed, or if you wanna use another perhaps more appropriate word, conditioned to participate in. Ultimately they have no choice but to partake in the war, that is their sole purpose, they have no other purpose.

[@fredlusyk6741]

~if you ask the question: ..."are the Jedi idiots for using the Clones...?" ~then aren't you also asking the question: ...are George Lucas & Jonathan Hales idiots for writing the story...? 👽 🖖 🤖

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

The Jedi are actually brain-dead in this film, and while I genuinely love this movie, it's absolutely and easily the weakest of the six films, Yes, Phantom Menace is a better written movie.

[@McDicker96]

The Jedi were legit evil for agreeing to using a giant slave army to fight their wars for them. There's a reason why in the original EU the clones were just assumed to be on the "bad" side attacking the Republic, because who the hell besides a villain would ever use clones? The prequels make the Jedi unambiguously evil.

[@Insider887]

The Jedi were literally putting their lives on the line to protect the people of the galaxy. Also the clone were not slaves legally speaking they were drafted since Kamino became part of the Republic att the start of the war.

[@kingorange7739]

@@Insider887except they literally were slaves in the most textbook sense. They were regarded as property first to the Kaminoins and then to the Republic. They had no say, couldn’t vote, had no ability to object, and the GAR were literally purchasing them. To say they weren’t slaves would be to play meaningless government semantics.

[@Insider887]

@kingorange7739 It has nothing to do with semantics, it’s about what is and isn’t true. Sure the kaminoins may have seen them as property but that was not an universal thing in the Republic. The majority of the Jedi treated them with respect and the legends audiobooks even mention activist groups who championed the rights of the clones. The rules that they followed weren’t all that different from the rules that regular drafted soldiers follow as for voting it is the senators elected by their people are the ones who votes on the Galactic Senate further more due to the emergency powers granted to Palpatine he was taking most of the legal decisions. Also the Republic never payed for the army it was already payed for when it was handed over to them.

[@McDicker96]

@@Insider887 they Clones were grown from vats to be soldiers, they had no choice but to obey. They were slaves and/or child soldiers. The Jedi and the Republic were morally evil monsters to use them in combat. I can't think of much that's more immoral than forcibly breeding and programming living beings to be slave soldiers. They even pretend to be wise and moral people too. Disgusting.

[@kingorange7739]

@ and it is true that they are slaves. Well treated slaves are still slaves none the less. They were sold as property and forced to do tasks they had no say in. Clones were hunted and assassinated just for wanting to leave the GAR. Also the Republic did pay for clones, that is what the entire Padme arc in season 3 was over. Yes the initial batch was already covered, but most of the army wasn’t.

[@TheKeyser94]

Wait, wait, wait. You are a fan of the Prequels now? I have been watching your channels for a few years now, since Force Awakens come out, and back in the day, you shared the same opinion than the OT fans, you have disdain for the Prequels, saying how "flawed" they were, and now you say that you love them, you either are joking or you are an outright liar, not that I not see this happen before, some OT fans have that suddenly flip their opinions, because they are concerned against the wall and what give them popularity in the past, and be part fan club, bashing the Prequels non stop, is no longer popular, the Fandom had move on from that and consider the OT fans toxic. So. What you would say now? That weren't part of the mob that harassed the rest of the Fandom? Like Red Letter Media, Chris Stuckman, etc. At least give an apology, like Jeremy Jahns and no play this charade.

[@davidmount2483]

First!!!!!

[@timcuedesignz2798]

Thor i like your videos but can we stop with the prequels era jedi bashing or pointing out every mistake they did. The separatist were a brutal military front relentlessly attacking worlds and or laying siege to worlds, not to mention in some cases committing genocide..and many other horrible things for 10 years!! But we focus on how the jedi didn't listen to the will of the force or should of known Palpatine was a sith. For a thousand years there was no sith known to the jedi, and no war on a galactic scale. The jedi were peacekeepers and in episode 2 when the war started the jedi responded by becoming miltaristic to defend the republic! They adapted, as heroes should do!

[@thorskywalker]

@@timcuedesignz2798 Jedi bashing? You must be new here if you think I'm always Jedi bashing. I literally open my thoughts by saying how often I defend them... which I do.

[@timcuedesignz2798]

@thorskywalker ok, maybe jedi bashing is too strong of a term, and yes, you do defend prequel jedi, but why continue the narrative that the prequel jedi were... not doing the best they could given their circumstances. No, the jedi are not perfect, but how would one deal with an evil cult with massive political and miltiristic power and influence, especially when you have not seen anything like it in 1000 years! I do love your content and have been watching for a couple years,

[@kingorange7739]

@@timcuedesignz2798Just because the Jedi were trying doesn’t mean they couldn’t had done things differently, nor did it mean they shouldn’t had kept themselves more vigilant. This is especially the case here since the Jedi by this point already know the sith are back.

[@cj3xps]

No! The whole "how the clones were created" plot makes no sense but you have to just ignore it because AotC, RotS, and The Clone Wars relies so heavily on them. It's a big part of what makes AotC one of the worst SW movies.

[@Deuteromis]

So how were they going to fight the Separatists?

[@emberfist8347]

It isn't one of the worst by a long shot. It also does make sense. Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi ordered them shortly before he died in seemingly unrelated circumstances.

[@cj3xps]

@@Deuteromis In a galaxy of trillions, manpower is not your problem.

[@Deuteromis]

@cj3xps Except for the fact that you would need time to recruit and train those citizens, along with having money and resources to back them up. Somethings the Republic couldn't afford to do since the Separatists already amassed an army. By the time the Republic did all that it would have been too late.

[@emberfist8347]

@@cj3xps You talking about conscription? Yeah that will go over well /s.

[@TheManFromWaco]

Order 66 is fascinating for me because it is simultaneously the most iconic movie moment of my childhood, and one that simply falls apart the more you think about it logically.

[@apstrike]

This question is a huge smoking hole in the logical consistency of the prequel trilogy. It's never made a lick of sense that the Jedi would commission a huge army while the Republic was at peace and there's not a word in the film about how any of this is paid for. I don't care if this was later explained in books I haven't read. A work of art needs to stand on its own.

[@adearadean72]

It was designed to be a convenient army for the Republic by Sidious.Clone wars series touched into that... Padme although a "good guy" she was clever, wasn't always completely innocent, and could be manipulative. By 14 years old she ran her planet Naboo albeit with help from other people and after then became the Naboo senator. In Attack of the Clones Padme wore a revealing little black dress when suggesting they maybe break up and Anakin then suggested they get married secretly...Also, in one point in Clone Wars Padme almost stopped the Clone Wars when she secretly visited her turned separatist mentor Bonterri and suggests peace.

[@GrievousReborn]

This is one of those cases where George Lucas could have used somebody else to help him with this movie they probably could have come up with a better fleshed out reason

[@braxxian]

The mere fact that the Jedi are happy for an army of sentient slaves to fight their war for them makes their downfall inevitable. They deserved it be wiped out as they had clearly lost their way.

[@Insider887]

First of all the Jedi never lost their way, they were literally putting their lives on the line to defend innocents and protect the base of democracy in the galaxy. It is what they have done for several millennia since the founding of the Galactic Republic. When it comes to the clone army they had literally no other choice, war had started and it was their duty to protect the galaxy, they needed an army and it’s not like they could ask the Separatists to sit down and wait. Neither the High Council nor the Galactic Senate asked for the clone army it was simply handed to them in a time of crises where they had no other means to fight back. Second the clones were not slaves, legally speaking they were conscripted into the army until the war was over. That is pretty standard for governments to do in times of crisis.

[@kingorange7739]

@@Insider887problem is the clones were slaves. Regardless of legal semantics (which is rather meaningless considering governments have a long history in lying), the clones were regarded as property to the Republic, had no ability to object to the war without being killed, and had no citizen rights.

[@Insider887]

No clones were ever killed for speaking against the war that was never a thing. When you are a soldier fighting in an ongoing conflict it’s just not popular, but they weren’t going to be executed if they said something against it. Also while off duty the clones could enjoy many of the same things that Republic Citizens could, strictly speaking if the army wasn’t made of clones the rules wouldn’t be all that different. We don’t really see them vote but the reason for that is because Palpatine had emergency power during the conflict further more it is the senators elected by the people of their planets who votes in the galactic senate.

[@kingorange7739]

@@Insider887 "The Covert Ops clone troopers were elite clone troopers serving with the Grand Army of the Republic during the Clone Wars. These troopers were mainly assigned to perform "dirty work" that most clones would find questionable and unethical, mainly finding and eliminating clone troopers who've deserted the army."

[@Insider887]

@@kingorange7739 That has nothing to do with them being clones it is about them being deserters.

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

The illogical choices or illogical correct conclusions come from the fact that the prequels were poorly written. The intent may have been to put the jedi in a difficult situation, but lets be real, the prequels are riddled with strange or weak cause and effect. Edit: It did have great themes that are still relevant, but nostalgia aside, themes, VFX, settings, and strong cast were the only good parts of those films.

[@alexdeghost2729]

I think ur just not smart

[@Deuteromis]

Poorly written, translation: I just didn't pay attention to the films.

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

@@Deuteromis Cope. the more you pay attention the less sense it makes

[@ThreadBareHope1234]

@@alexdeghost2729 Cope

[@Deuteromis]

@ThreadBareHope1234 Spoken like someone who didn't pay attention.

[@revantobias8567]

Aw, comment got deleted. KZbin cant handle the truth abouth the clones paying the price for the republics indolence. And the Jedi's....