should we ban dockside? .... emmmm

[@ClubbingSealCub]

The D in cedh stands for Dockside

[@cedhtv]

YES! hahahaha! competitive elder dockside highlander

[@thedripkingofangmar6778]

Honestly can't wait on your take on recent bans

[@andytheindividual3862]

If we ban dockside, lets ban thassas

[@paulszki]

honest question, aren't there like a million cheap 2-card "i win combos" in magic? Why is thassa's oracle + demonic consultation considered the strongest and is it such an outlier that banning oracle would not just have people go the next best combo?

[@necrosisofphilosophy5247]

​@@paulszkiit is partially do to the colors they are in, blue is the strongest in cedh do to counter magic and card draw and black giving the best tutors in the game, combine both and you have an extremely efficient win combo for three mana they is protected by the counter magic and wins on the stack making it very hard to interact with. Pushing a turn 1 win with an island, mox diamond, chrome mox, and a mana crypt to activate the chrome mox.

[@necrosisofphilosophy5247]

I don't think they should be banned in cedh as like you said ppl would just move to the next "big win combo" in the format. And if ppl play well and don't waste counter magic on things that don't win the game you can use it against the win combo. Dockside gives so much mana to push for the win its the best ritual in the game and can get infinite mana easily but there are so many ways to make infinite mana that if we ban it ppl will just go to the next best thing

[@paulszki]

@@necrosisofphilosophy5247 thanks man! enlightening.

[@TheNeoDaedalus]

Pretty simple really: it's dificult to interact with. And that is on top of all the other ideal circumstances (like colors) but that is what sets it apart. Only counter magic or forced draw can stop it (and like one relevant stax piece), meaning that there will be a lot of oportunities where opponents just won't be able to interact with it.

[@jediabaja6602]

The budget cEDH w/ removing the banlist sounds really fun … Playing Yawgmoth’s Bargain and Griselbrand in mono black decks w/ Hullbreacher to counteract it or even Paradox Engine could really freshen up the meta. Old Prophet of Kruphix decks coming would be really fun to watch in cEDH

[@cedhtv]

Yeah. Those cards should be legal in my opinion.

[@shikaku_]

Gristlebrand is an amazing card I'd love to see it unbanned so I can use my krrik deck

[@jamesmiller5277]

A common statistics mistake made here, because dockside is so widespread in use, any deviation from normal is *deflated* due to most of its opponents being other decks with dockside. IE: a hypothetical card with **100%** win rate vs decks not running it at 60% usage including 16% draws would only have a 34% win rate due to so many mirror matches. I don't know how far off +1.49% is from other powerhouses, but you should be concerned long before the example +10%

[@jamesmiller5277]

Unfortunately trying to derive a relative win rate backwards from the 23.1 (27.47% if we ignore ties) is both contingent on a lot of variables that should not be assumed to be independent, and hidden variables. If we ignore all that and assume dockside vs non dockside win rates are independent variables, I get about a 59% vs 41% relative pairing on dockside vs non dockside, which imo indicates a problem at a 3:2 ratio off just one card in the 99 *But* that number is explicitly inaccurate, as for example we know 5c cedh decks are at an advantage and every optimized one is on dockside, so that alone raises docksides relative win rate. It also assumed ties were randomly distributed and not a variable dependent on the table distribution of dockside vs non-dockside.

[@markusaurelius83]

Yes, the stats don't make any sense. Dockside warps the game around it, this should be enough proof to know that Dockside is extremely powerful. It's one of those cards that can win from nowhere.

[@axismt]

Usage rate on decks would be a better data point than win rate

[@Chris-e1w6n]

I would like to see obm thoracle and dockside banned. Dark rit was the most busted mana accellerant in mtg and dockside is a dark rit on steroids. Bowmasters depowered green to comical levels. And if we get rid of thoracle then games will almost always go past turn 4. Which is more fair in any setting for the three players not going first.

[@Revival_JamZ]

Its too good tbh, is the main reason why clones are played in non red decks, and is so easy to go infinite with it. If dockside is banned for sure it will hurt red decks but those with blue will still exist only because breach is one of the most broken cards ever printed and one of the most reliable wincons.

[@Caliban_80]

Treasures are a design mistake in general but we are stuck with them forever.

[@JBeleren]

They have to come in to play tapped. I think that will fix it a bit

[@Caliban_80]

@@JBeleren Yeah or pay a life to use it or something. Almost any downside at all would be acceptable.

[@MasterDecoy1W]

Not enough people understand that this is the hidden truth of modern Magic.

[@SHMITEY1]

It could be worse. It could all just be gold tokens

[@MasterDecoy1W]

Dockside is a pungent urine stain on the carpet of EDH. When such a thing happens, do you simply walk around it until you're used to the stench and it embeds itself in your rug? No. You clean it up and you punish the dog who made it. In fact, in this analogy, the carpet is becoming majority urine stains because we let the dog get away with whatever it wants. (I say we, but the players are really the children in this metaphor, who just suffer living in a piss-stained house. The "parents" would be the RC, who should be managing the "house"/format to keep it a good environment.)

[@BudgetPubStomper-lr7nh]

I think people would be very surprised at how powerful even the $100 budget cedh meta is. I’ve got lots of deck techs on various $100 builds and the faster, proactive strategies can consistently threaten wins on turn 4 and sometimes turn 3. It’s a lot of fun. Mons NAILED the analogy to Canadian Highlander. Adding a strict budget forces you away from 5 color “good stuff” and toward synergistic 1-3 color builds mostly. Net decking is pretty tough too… you’re gonna have to brew👍 I highly highly recommend the $100 budget cedh sub format. The games are virtually guaranteed to go passed turn 2 but no one can sit behind rystics, one rings, and piles of free interaction… the games don’t end before they begin.. but they do end. Not the 90 minute slogs you’re seeing in cEdh. Try it 🤘😖🤘 It rocks

[@thomasantoine6194]

thats not cedh then its just what everybody does in casual edh, brewing the best deck they can for 100$

[@shikaku_]

The issue with having a price limit like that is that prices vary. The $100 marwyn deck that I built is almost $200 a year later. Also having a format specific to building with cards $1 or less could drive prices up as well.

[@SylveonSimp]

Dockside is good for policing all those mana rocks. if you spam them be ready to face a strong dockside.

[@FlyboyEz3]

It definitely shores up the difference if your opponents explode on their turns 1-2 with mana rocks. Magic has a great tracklist of naturally balancing most things out, whether given existing cards, or at some point in the future. Give it time, and they will print a good counter or two for whatever card you hate.

[@TheBlackJello]

I think the main issue with dockside is the issue in commander where every fast mana rock has to be an auto include in majority of decks

[@goldenchild6159]

I would ban thassa before I banned dockside. Dockside leads to a potential win vs thassa actually winning the game for nothing. If the dockside isnt fed how is it going to be relevant. Thassa doesnt rely on your opponents to feed it, it just wins if it resolves.

[@alanoftheinfinite]

We'll eventually get another powerhouse card in other colors in the next few years to compete with Dockside. Then we'll say something like, "Dockside just isn't good enough anymore..."

[@nikola25spasic]

It would just destroy so many decks and limit the meta. The variety of cedh is so nice. I disagree on the remora ban but am pro rhystic study ban. Remora is quite a bit easier to play around.

[@khub5660]

L take. Rhystic punishes people who want to sling spells without consequence

[@KrayZieTyler]

@@khub5660 there are many other cards that punish spellslinger decks that could replace Rhystic Study.

[@khub5660]

@@KrayZieTyler except not all of them rely on noncreature spells. Would you perform a Breach or Dockside loop in the face of 3 rhystics? Probably not right?

[@Savage_Mr_Bean14]

I agree variety is nice, itd be interesting to see the stats on Rhystic study itself, if its inclusion creates a skewed winrate.

[@Savage_Mr_Bean14]

​@@khub5660I think the issue is Rhystic Study *generally* does more to punish the players who are not taking any actions yet rather than the player dumping rocks into it

[@henkdachief]

no question about it, the only argument to keep it is for esoteric reasons and dockside just isnt old enough yet, but also the banlist isnt really made for cedh either

[@certanmike]

In EDH you get the same amount of mana from a Jessica will

[@10Pugz]

I think a bigger problem is Thassa's Oracle.

[@MRAIClassroom]

I run into more people winning with dockside loops more than thoracle for sure! If they ban thoracle… it would just make Jace and lab man take over that spot.

[@KrayZieTyler]

Nah, the value of Dockside compared to Thoracle is insane. Thoracle does one thing, and one thing only. Win. Dockside wins and creates value even if you don't win with it immediately. Thoracle does nothing until you can win, and I don't see anybody doing Thoracle loops or recurring Thoracle from their graveyard to win.

[@loemirherick4658]

Considering that both are being made for their respective decks, do you prefer advantages at the table or winning the game? that's my thought

[@jormungardwe]

​@@MRAIClassroom jace and lab maniac are slower and easier to deal with

[@Alikaakui808]

Moving away from statistic videos and moving more towards opinion based videos such as the recent RC video. I like it. People should be able to have opinions and discuss them!

[@cedhtv]

well. It is a topic I like but there is no data that can be used for this topic.This is how I used to do my older videos. But there will still be data focused Videos aswell.

[@pierredupont1096]

I play Leyline of Singularity (non-cEDH obviously) and it takes care of the treasure silliness. About Dockside Extortionist itself, this was a mistake; Red should not be getting permanent mana sources, its job is quick mana and quick impulsive draw and actions. Likewise. Smothering Tithe is a mistake in that White ramps off disadvantage, Tithe and Dockside seem like EDH additions but...no one asked for them. Our group has house-banned all those cards (Smothering Tithe, Mystic Remora, Rhystic Tudy, Dockside Extortionist) and we're having fun. I think cEDH as is won't change much unless one of ore more newer cards (That Squirrel Druid maybe?) makes treasures a little more hesitant or they make new win-cons that push those previous ones. Your videos are very well-done and interlligently presented, so thank you. There won't be bans, I don't think, as the Rules Committee simply is on hiatus indefinitely. They haven't made any decisions affecting the game since...Worldfire unban? So keep brewing and keep winning!

[@zeroisnine]

At this point, I feel its iconic for CEDH. It would be like banning Black Lotus in Vintage.

[@crazykhespar8487]

Just dont kill my dragon dad Korvold :(

[@wizardsmix7961]

Emmmm what the sigma?

[@cedhtv]

sigma?

[@Rafesco]

Honestly Dockside and Bridge are the reasons why Red is played on CEDH and why Tymna and Kraum are played instead of Tymna and Thrasios. Yes I know there's strong commanders like Magda and Godo, but they're wincons on the command zone and Magda is also the engine of the deck.

[@john_wick272]

Ban dockside, orcish bowmasters, and either rhystic study or thassa's oracle. Those cards warp the game so much that it limits brewing potential. Why wouldn't I play the single card that increases my chance of winning by +1%, while that doesn't sound like much it... 1 card in the 99 is responsible for putting a deck close to over the expected 25% win rate.

[@TheMattmatic]

The thing is, it's very difficult to brew in competitive formats with a large card pool. Not impossible, but difficult. I would prefer EDH without a lot of cards, but most likely the cEDH meta will settle after any bans and it would not make THAT big of a difference in how much brewing is possible, I think.

[@john_wick272]

​@@TheMattmatic Dockside plus 3-4 clone effects and the 1-2 bounce spells for him in addition to bowmasters and rhystic being gone allow for almost 10% of a deck being freed up for actual brewing

[@TheMattmatic]

@@john_wick272 The thing is, you're looking at it like the meta would be exactly the same except for the cards that are banned. That isn't the case - it's never the case. It might be a better format, but it's hard to know for sure. It might just be that all you play against is Nadu and Kinnan and then you have to warp your deck to deal with those decks, etc

[@goncalocatalao9112]

Banning dockside on its own big no for me. Banning dockside but also banning OBM, could be a big buff to dorks, improving the value of green overall

[@cedhtv]

Short input. Green wasent that OP or overpowerd before when we didn't have dockside or OBM or underworld breach. Green has never really been OP in this format.

[@goncalocatalao9112]

@@cedhtv its one thing to say that green wouldn't be op, but another to say it wouldn't increase its value. Do you think it would improve greens value to ban dockside and OBM or it would make no difference at all?

[@W4llh4k]

​@cedhtv since the release of dockside many green decks have appeared that seem like they could do well in a non dockside meta. But would like to see the dsta about that to actually know if the difference is significant. It's like this video everyone would say dockside increases WR by 10-12%.

[@shikaku_]

Korvald has left the chat

[@nelsonchandra6193]

Oh shit. Someone acknowledged conquest.

[@cedhtv]

I think conquest is great!

[@pnwprospecting]

I almost guarantee you that every person who does not like dockside does not like proxies

[@markusaurelius83]

If they ban Dockside I'll play cEDH again.

[@cedhtv]

I hope to have you back!

[@voluntarism335]

It makes cards like blood moon absolutelyfucking worthless

[@cedhtv]

YES! Blood moon is a card you should not PLAY right now.

[@voluntarism335]

@@cedhtv Have you considered that dockside enables 5 color blue soup while at the same time making it impossible to punish 5 color blue soup and also punishing people who run land hate like blood moon? For those reasons the card must be banned, it makes 5 color blue soups far better than the mono red decks it makes better, infact it makes those decks worse because blood moon is no longer a good card to even run like you said. Please reconsider how dockside is even healthy for the game. It is very normal for most players to at least have 2 artifacts/enchantments on their field collectively so dockside easily makes 6 treasures netting 4+ mana, most likely they'll have more than 2 lands by that time anyways and can just combo kill the pod, it's really unfair to say that you were being "greedy" by having 2 artifacts/enchantments out so you deserve to instantly lose if you don't have an immediate answer to dockside. Dockside is never bad during the game expect for literally the very first turn and only if you're going first, dockside gets exponentially more powerful as the game goes on, it's never a bad draw as it also serves as a combo piece. The card does far too much. The data I don't care about but I can tell you that land hate is not run purely because of Dockside Extortionist.

[@voluntarism335]

@@cedhtv Also think about how meta warping that card is, people literally play with copy creature cards purely because of dockside. Dockside is not healthy for the game.

[@Chukoko]

update: it's banned

[@cedhtv]

Yeah. hahah just made a video for that.

[@BAdCommander]

This is my new fave series of videos!

[@Exodus1501]

I would much rather have Rhystic banned. Not only what you said about it, but for me it make obnoxious game states with the stack and slows gameplay down and robs players of turns in timed tournaments. My casual argument would be that people just wildly don't pay for it even when they can and king make. lolol

[@JerBroChill]

Just pay for rhystic, fish is by far stronger especially in cedh. If your pod isn't paying for rhystic that's something you gotta talk them into doing

[@al8188]

Second this. This is a card that creates a fucking reality distortion field around it. People regularly play into it without paying at every level. It is very easy to convince oneself that what you're doing outpaces the card. People also really misapprehend what beat them - they see the loop and identify that as the problem and not the 6 cards someone drew over the course of a fight on the stack. On power level alone Rhystic and Fish are insane outliers. I'd argue fish is, like, a better play experience because either everyone agrees to not feed it or the game is at a state where you know no one is paying for it, and it eventually goes away and the game moves on. Rhystic is just annoying the whole time. I genuinely would love to see an analysis of the two to assess whether they are as large of issues as they subjectively feel like at the table.

[@worstcaseofcrabsever5510]

Any player can just kill the rhystic the turn it comes out as a 1 for one.

[@pierrebuthaud7640]

Well that was fast ! I didn't know I had such power ^^ Gotta think about a lot of other videos I'd like to see from you if that's that easy. Just kidding. Let's watch this !

[@pierrebuthaud7640]

And my opinion on the matter since I litteraly asked for this video. I don't mind the goblin on a power level scale. The data you showed is evidence enough but even before. It's strong, of course, but there are a lot of strong cards in the format. I don't mind him either for the Fish/Study aspect of it. (Side note, I actually like those cards and the politics aspect of them. I think they part of what makes the format fun and if someone accuse you of kingmaking because of them, they're crazy. You're responsible for assessing the risk/reward of what you play. If you lose a game because you fed someone too much, you will learn. But if you think squeezing a little is giving you the highest chance of winning even if it makes someone draw, you should) I even like how it accelerate the format. The main reason why I got into it was I got tired of 4 hour games of stacked board state with 15/15 that can't attack because the first to open up looses. My main problem with him is more about diversity. I think this 4 player, 100 different cards per deck format resolves a bit too much around him. I don't think I would ban it over just that but I somewhat found it sad that, when Mockingbird was spoiled in bloomburrow, the overview was like "it's a good clone for dockside in cedh". In general I don't find very healthy the fact that some blue decks run 1 to sometimes 3 or 4 clones, the sole purpose of them being cloning dockside. I don't think any format in magic history was shaped by a card so badly that running clones to get access to him was what gave you the best % of winning. Still it's iconic, a very fun and thrilling card to play and the very best in the only format where it can be good. So it would be extremely sad to ban it. Maybe a new versatile stack piece that hit him hard would tone him down a bit and make people think twice about playing him. Like a Notion thief for treasures or something in those lines. My dream scenario for the format is some form of cycle where dockside is everywhere, so an according stax has to be played also everywhere, meaning less people play dockside, so less people play the staxy piece, so dockside make a comeback... Ok it's my dream scenario but my greater point is, I also feel there's not much (enough) risk playing a dockside right now. In fact the card that counters dockside the most is... another dockside Which is an issue when you think about it.

[@cedhtv]

I did think of you when I made this video. " Well he did ask for it... so lets do that today :P" And it is also true that dockside feeds dockside.

[@lapsehc]

dockside is worse than primeval titan, that's for sure. it just becomes who casts it first or can copy it after its casts. its annoying, warps the format and makes a bunch a decks sole purpose to tutor and cast dockside which is just boring and removes creativity. with more and more commanders constantly being introduced it makes sense to ban it as it should not be something that every single red deck latches onto as their win con. just think, if it was a blue card it would probably be banned already...

[@tovarvonbrandt7157]

It is up to people to decide how busted they wanted the format to be. If you ban dockside you need to ban other colours good stuff too otherwise it warps the format even further. For example, what is the point of playing red if you can't play dockside, or blue if you can't play fish or rhystic and so on. People would probably approach deck building differently if it happened and imo definitely would slow the format down.

[@voluntarism335]

Dockside doesn't give people a reason to run red it gives them a reason to run 4-5 color blue soup decks that are unable to be punished with the likes of blood moon because it gets around land hate. It promotes blue soup decks more than anything else.

[@beckhamjenkins4798]

10:09 I know this might be unpopular but ban all the cards on that page

[@cedhtv]

hahaha. No some poeople atully want that.

[@subscriptions7155]

Ban it or unban Primeval Titan. (For consistency)

[@khub5660]

That's a crazy false equivalency

[@jormungardwe]

I don't think sylvan primordial, primeval titan or sundering titan would even be playable, maybe in more casual games and they would still be niche.

[@subscriptions7155]

​@@khub5660 true, dockside is way stronger. You can't even go infinite with primeval titan.

[@khub5660]

@@subscriptions7155 combo potential and being relevant in every single game that it's played in are two different things. Prime Time is a scourge from casual to high power tables, while Dockside is quite the opposite. The more casual the table is, the less relevant Dockside becomes.

[@TheMattmatic]

This would make sense if EDH was a format where bans are based on power level, but alas, it is not.

[@MageSkeleton]

While i feel WotC could do a very similar effect but on a four or five CMC creature giving us a second effective Dockside Extortionist, of all the cards i would personally want to see banned this is not one of them. Dockside Extortionist is balanced in that the ETB has to resolve, and it's only really good in the commander format where you have multiple opponents. And then it's only creating treasure tokens for you (which an effect an opponent controls could cause to enter tapped) based on ONLY what enchantments and artifacts your opponents have in play. This can cause opponents to [Tap] sacrifice as many of those as possible while Dockside Extortionist ETB is on the stack giving you that many less treasure tokens. Dockside Extortionist is completely balanced, and i hope to see more mono red creatures with this type of effect. Maybe a slight increase in CMC maybe requiring the spell to be successfully cast. Hoard Hauler is the only other card that does something similar, but it has to be crewed, deal combat damage, and then it's based on only that players number of artifacts in play.

[@TheMattmatic]

I think Dockside can stay, but it's pretty clearly the best red card in the format (along with Underworld Breach and maybe Jeska's will). The second best "Dockside" is probably something like Facebreaker, which is good but not on the same planet as Dockside, so calling it "completely balanced" is a stretch I'd say :D

[@voluntarism335]

dockside is not balanced, it's a game executing card for two mana

[@lomalindasmogcheck1]

No ban; because it IS too good which makes it bannable. 'Flash' remembers

[@spenserroxsox]

If we ban dockside then i feel it only makes sense we ban thoracle

[@MasterDecoy1W]

Don't threaten me with a good time.

[@moralessanchezoscarelias6412]

Great points!

[@pill0w1]

How do you extract card average winrates from cedh tournaments?

[@cedhtv]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKGwdqump9V2hLs This video might answer your questions.

[@Hapkins-le6xf]

Dockside is another card that would be a lot more acceptable if only mono red or red/x decks played it, but in 3+ color decks gets super obnoxious.

[@murdermastodon7469]

I’d rather ban breach than dockside personally. Dockside enables and pushes many decks into the format that would otherwise be non CEDH viable.

[@TheHorriblificDR]

Agreed

[@RibusPQR]

What is the green slice in simic and bant? Are they running Dockside somehow?

[@cedhtv]

no they cant do that they don't have red as color identity.

[@andresenriquezgomez6910]

IMHO dockside extortionist should never be banned since it helps with one of the format's main problems. It's best when you are fourth in turn order, helping reduce the gap in win percentage between first and last in turn order. Without it the already huge difference between them would only get bigger.

[@pierredupont1096]

I agree on the turn order but...the great thing is WIzards can just solve this on its own: "If you started the game third or fourth, you may X then Y" is a design space that needs to happen. Just giving mad mana earlier than necessary doesn't help those lagging behind already.

[@voluntarism335]

no it does not

[@voluntarism335]

Blue soup decks cannot be punished thanks to the existence of dockside that makes playing cards like blood moon pointless, the treasures make any colored mana. It is unhealthy for the game

[@TheNeoDaedalus]

The data isn't really relevant imo. Since red (and that means dockside) is so prevalent, most of those statistics will be dockside decks going against other dockside decks. Real proof would be dockside decks only going against non dockside decks. But that's almost impossible to do.

[@voluntarism335]

Yes it should, it's f****** boring seeing that card win games, it makes the games more boring

[@ryanlink8699]

No ban ever. Cy rift and other spells exist that can get rid of everything. It’s a 1 time effect unless countered. There’s plenty other cards just as strong, let’s not empower blue more.

[@MT_LeagueGaming7896]

If Flash can be banned bc of cedh, then dockside can be banned for casual

[@cedhtv]

True!

[@rubensmith776]

I strongly believe that banning Dockside will result in a less diverse format but perhaps a less homogenised card pool.

[@friedchickkn1131]

I think the win rate for decks with sol ring is more indicative of need for change (This is satire)

[@TheMattmatic]

If cards were banned based on power level, Sol Ring would have been banned a long time ago.

[@RoninWeeb_187]

Personally in my honest opinion, Smothering Tithe and Rhystic Study are more obnoxious than Dockside Extortionist and should be banned. Smothering Tithe and Rhystic Study can win people games since majority of the time many don't pay for them and also those two enchantments generate value at absurd rates when combined with certain commanders. And not only that Smothering Tithe and Rhystic Study can be slotted into any deck that has white or blue mana in it due to those enchantments not being restricted by color pips in their CMC. Reason why most defend those two enchantments is due to Magic having many instances of power creep lol.

[@certanmike]

Thing with all of them is it's to even out the power of green ramp

[@oldbordergeek]

yea its a big bom and a staple in all red stuff. like, all

[@damonicruz2408]

short answer no long answer maybe

[@worstcaseofcrabsever5510]

My top 3 ban cards. #1 Thassa's Oracle #2 Basalt Monolith #3 Ad Nauseum

[@shikaku_]

Why basalt? Kinnan is kinda dead

[@FrancisSalois]

Yes

[@jaydonthewarrior636]

To add to this, I find Dockside quite fun. Regardless of how good it is, it's just enables alot of cool combos and fun game plans.

[@renato_n.n]

TLDR: We don't ban anything. The rules committee ban cards based on casual criteria. If cEDH community had its own banlist I wouldn't ban Dockside first because it is carrying the color red. We don't want to have irrelevant colors in the format like green or white. Blue should have to be nerfed first and then we can start thinking on banning Dockside.

[@MT_LeagueGaming7896]

Yes ban it... just ban it, no questions asked- it literally warps the game around the mana treasures produce- if treasures didnt produce mana then dockside would not be played hardly as much... who would care about artifacts w no use besides revel in riches win con or artifact synergies... name another card that warps the game around it once 1 is cast...

[@wergiliusz369]

I hope i'm first, dockside is baned

[@cedhtv]

Yes you are.

[@brentondebusschere8082]

Rather see stuff get unbanned than anything be banned

[@arielarvelo8190]

Doesn’t both me

[@Binbomegami_Dorada]

Ban thassa's oracle

[@sir_quirkus7206]

nah just ban thassa

[@JerBroChill]

Make sure to tap your treasures in response to dockside hitting the stack and be careful with your rock drops and you'll be fine against dockside

[@AlCapone-uo9mi]

Na ban breach

[@iMammals]

No

[@whysospicy6750]

It balances itself out. Dockside is busted in CEDH but doesn't do much in casual.

[@cedhtv]

correct. This is way I like budget cEDH. It balance everything out kinda.

[@reuvan16]

This is not really true either. You just have less people trying to combo off of dockside in casual, but it still gives a boost in mana out of nowhere

[@khub5660]

​@reuvan16 if you're loading your decks with enchantments and artifacts in casual, you deserve to get hit with a Dockside. All things considered, just play Dauntless Dismantler. Or even Manglehorn. There's a plethora of options that blank Dockside's text. You're complaining about your own deckbuilding decisions when you complain about Dockside

[@reuvan16]

@@khub5660 sure, if you say so dear

[@Rafesco]

False, you saw less Dockside in casual because it costs $90 USD.

[@Ki-qr5vo]

Dockside should never be banned As the format need something to give people some means of risk for playing all their rocks in a brainless manner

[@AUGOM0919]

Free Hullbreacher it is all I ask to the rules committee Mans.. Free Hullbreacher.. he did nothing wrong..

[@cedhtv]

I agree!

[@nealcrabtree3647]

Leave my boy alone!!

[@crazykhespar8487]

Nope.

[@Kirkland_Signature]

I don’t play a ton of casual EDH anymore but I’ve never seen Dockside in a single casual game and I’ve been playing for years. I think the price of it at this point turns most casual players off from it as well as it just not doing as much outside of competitive play where there are typically much fewer artifacts/enchantments in play. In cEDH it’s a format-defining card, competitive play would be a lot more boring without it.

[@Rafesco]

It doesn't seem play because it's a $90 USD card and it was only avalaible on a precon that was heavily bought in multiples by some players, Dockside is even MORE powerful than a banned card Primeval Titan. The only reason is not banned it's because much like Mana crypt. Their price limits the use of the card.

[@MasterDecoy1W]

@@Rafesco It also has high reprint equity for EDH-targeted sets like Masters or Secret Lairs. I'm sure WotC wouldn't appreciate their revenue streams being threatened like that.

[@Rizso1]

dockside is a big pillar of the format so wouldnt ban it.

[@crovax1375]

I'm going to say no Dockside doesn't need to be banned. At casual play levels most players simply don't play enough fast artifacts for Dockside to have the same early game impact as in cedh or high power games. And having high-impact early plays is something I expect to see at cedh and high power games. Also skilled players will take into account the impact of Dockside and change their play pattern accordingly

[@Rafesco]

I disagree. Artifact decks are the most popular edh archetype and Dockside not only feeds on artifacts but also enchantments. The only reason don't see play on casual it's because of his price tag of $90 USD.

[@crovax1375]

@@Rafesco I did say fast artifacts and was talking about early game impact. At a casual table the likelihood of a turn 3 or earlier Dockside of making a game winning number treasure is low, but I'm fine if a turn 10 Dockside can finish the game.

[@jbs6614]

Dockside is okay. OBM is worse.

[@arenfuentes2591]

I think the main problem is that people doesnt understand what CEDH is.. what people dont understand is having a 0 rocks or dockside or rhystic doesnt determine if your deck is CEDH or not..

[@Nachtjagerz]

I completely understand your approach with data, but when you sit down to watch games or research cEDH decks, it's easy to see how the game revolves around this card. The number of copy and flicker effects included because of Dockside is quite significant. Just by watching games, you can see how many of them revolve around Dockside creating an insane amount of tokens, leading to a victory literally out of nowhere. And it being a creature makes it even harder to counter or play around. It's a super strong card, a must include if you play red, and if not included into your deck you will always actively try to copy it. I'm totally opposed to banning cards, but one cannot overlook who strong this card is. But again, so it's mystic remora and rhystic study, and you cannot ban everything. At the end, it is what it is

[@aR0ttenBANANA]

No, the end. There's way more toxic shit out there like OBM making any dork-based deck genuinely unplayable and yet it's not looking at a ban either.

[@georgesingletary2380]

Took apart my budget edric deck because of that card

[@georgesingletary2380]

Sucks man

[@georgesingletary2380]

Took my edric deck apart due to this card

[@FlyboyEz3]

How is this still in conversation. They literally printed a hard counter for Dockside in Bloomburrow... Love the channel just annoyed by this one ban suggestion; especially years later.

[@oripaper7727]

Mr. D doesnt do anything wrong, blame the one who likes to copy Mr. D instead LOL 😂 also we got new squirel that will spook Mr. D from sacing treasure with toxic mechanic, this is what make me curious on how the meta will do

[@letsmakeit110]

why even bother cedh decks are all 90% the same anyway. you gonna ban rhystic, mystic, mox amber/diamond, mana crypt, sol ring, thassa, voidwalker, bowmasters, esper sentinel, opposition agent, force of will, force of negation, jeska's will, ad nauseum, demonic tutor, offer you cant refuse, dark ritual, vampiric/mystical/enlightened tutor, chrome mox, jeweled lotus, led, mana crypt, lotus petal, underworld breach, the one ring, and smothering tithe too?

[@coolColombianguy]

It's called competitive for a reason. Maximize your resources in conjunction with your piloting skillz to win. Casual is to have fun. Nothing wrong with either one. Just don't mess with each one

[@Brandon-zq3wh]

No definitely not it's one of the few cards that let's red be some what on par with blue and green

[@munchinkin]

YOUR MATH IS WRONG ... 21.6% winrate for all decks ... 23.4% for deck playing it ... but the deck NOT playing it sits at 19.26 to bring the group down to 21.6 ... so those NOT playing it have a 4.2 % less winrate which is huge for ONE card in a singleton format EDIT: cedhtv told me the correct number not showing in video

[@cedhtv]

No not playing it is at 19,26% winrate. 23,41 with it and 19,26% without it.

[@W4llh4k]

​@@cedhtv so the discrepancy is about 4%. Which is a 20% gap from the decks not playing it. Also how did the global average not come down to 25%, it seems kinda odd.

[@certanmike]

​@W4llh4k decks with red have less than a 25% win rate and is part of why I say red is a weak color in EDH

[@munchinkin]

@@cedhtv ok so rounded up its 4.2% more winrate for ONE card in a singleton format ... its still huge for a 1/99 card

[@W4llh4k]

@@certanmike ok, I knew I was missing data. Tnx

[@KressalakTheWolf]

I don't believe it should be banned. Yeah its strong but if you don't like it, talk to the other players before the game and see about not playing it.

[@cedhtv]

I agree. Rule zero is good.

[@jormungardwe]

No, dockside is reactive card that punishes greedness for mana baning it would be no diferente than those casual players crying for years that rhystic studies is oppressive.

[@voluntarism335]

explain to me how only having 2 artifacts/enchantments on your field is greedy? If the 2 other players have 2 artifacts/enchantments on their board as well, very common. How is that greedy? Why should people instantly lose the game because of that? Dockside is the greedy thing to do why? It enables 5 color blue soup decks with no way to punish them, cards like blood moon no longer see any play thanks purely to the existence of Dockside, dockside does not promote mono red decks it promotes 5 color blue soups that splash red, while it does make red decks stronger it makes 5 color blue soups vastly stronger. So please explain to me how a card that enables blue soup is healthy for the game while at the same time making the cards that make blue soup bad unplayable, go ask anyone who used to play with blood moon they'll tell you that dockside is the reason why they no longer bother. So again please explain how enabling blue soup decks and giving them no downside is good for cEDH? The downside in the past was getting your lands screwed with.

[@charlesmaillho367]

This isn't even close to ban worthy. While it sees a lot of play, this card needs your opponents to play artifacts and enchantments for you to benefit from it. This spell can be countered, the ETB trigger can be countered/negated, and the treasures can even come in tapped so there are numerous ways to easily shut it down. Currently, there aren't any ban worthy cards in the edh or cedh. There are a few headache cards but none of them are strong and oppressive enough to warrant bans. I'd argue cards like Golos and Paradox Engine should be unbanned purely because those cards are banned because of casual players.

[@voluntarism335]

ok nice to know you have brain damage

[@dystopianaverice1981]

Run a little more spot removal no need to ban

[@cedhtv]

But spot removal dosen't do anything. Infact is is good for the dockside player to have dockside in grave. Then they can reanime it.

[@voluntarism335]

it's an etb trigger you dumbf***

[@khub5660]

For the people who want Dockside banned, you're bitching about your own deckbuilding choices. There are a plethora of options to shut down treasures and quite a few ways to turn off ETBs. People want to play all the fast mana they can, but don't want there to be any real counterplay to it? Gtfoh. I play T&T and absolutely thrash any deck that relies on Dockside loops. Why? Because I revisited my deck and changed my choices. Rhystic Study is a necessary evil for the format. It punishes those who want to sling spells willy nilly without worrying about any consequences. It's a better deterrent than Rule of Law effects. Using kingmaking as a reason to ban Rhystic Study is as you said, a slippery slope. That sets a precedence that opens the door to banning anything due to the potential of kingmaking.

[@Savage_Mr_Bean14]

What are your deckbuilding decisions against Dockside that you think are effective? And how has OBM affected TnT?

[@khub5660]

@Savage_Mr_Bean14 Dauntless Dismantler, Manglehorn, Stony Silence, and Collector Ouphe. The only artifact I play is The One Ring, so playing around my own hate is pretty easy. Bowmasters hasn't really affected my specific build of T&T too much because I'm not leaning into the mana dorks that Bowmasters loves to pick off. Furthermore, most of the creatures in my deck are 2 to 3 toughness with the exception of BoP, OBM, Avacyn's Pilgrim, and Elvish Mystic. T&T has a lot of resources at its disposal, which gives birth to a lot of variety. I play a more anti-meta build, opting for pieces like what I mentioned above but also cards like RiP and Planar Void to deny the graveyard axis. If you're interested, I'll throw the list into Arkidekt and post the link.

[@Savage_Mr_Bean14]

@@khub5660 OrcishBowMaster

[@pierredupont1096]

No. I play casually, and I have like...a Sol Ring, Soldevi Digger and Sapphire Medallion or something out then my opponent casts Dockside gets like 6-7 treasures then loops it. I mean, Oops I didn't have Force of Will for Dockside? I want to be able to play the game and have my friends play too, not just one person doing the game actions, which is why we house-banned it.

[@khub5660]

@pierredupont1096 This channel and comment thread is dedicated to cEDH. I am glad to see that your pod can engage in Rule 0 conversation. That being said, I will respectfully inform you that cEDH is an entirely different ballgame where Dockside is one of the best things to play in our subformat. I will reiterate my point once more in a less abrasive manner. A good player can pilot their deck well. A great player can make good judgment calls on the meta and adjust accordingly. When people complain about things like Dockside, it's because of that skill gap that they haven't closed yet.

[@RafaelAAMerlo]

We would have more competitive diversity right now from unbanning things, not banning more 🤌 Great analysis, mons ❤

[@jeffscalise5927]

Yes

[@cedhtv]

I love comments like this. Clean simple. I know what you mean!

[@andyontaneda996]

No

[@reuvan16]

Yes