Should We Remove The M+ Timer?? | New Blizzard Survey

[@Challotking]

A few ideas to balance the feelings "the clock is stressful" vs "no clock == no achievement": - Adopt a medal system (bronze, silver, gold, platinum) that's based on dungeon score (score is based on deaths and time, both weighted differently). -- Platinum requires minimal deaths and a fast time. Similar to 3 chest today -- Gold can be a little slower than platinum, or have some more deaths. Similar to 2 chest today -- Silver is slower or more deathy yet. Similar to one chest today -- Bronze is either slow and clean, or fast and dirty. Rewards normal loot but does not bump the key up a level. -- No medal is probably a trainwreck, minimal loot, drops the key down a level. And then as part of the above, or separately, make deaths do something different. Maybe deaths dont lower the timer... but lack of deaths simply increase your score. e.g. Less than 10 deaths? here's X more points. Look you got silver now instead of bronze! Also, instead of a clock ticking down, the clock ticks UP.

[@taylorwhite2751]

The main issue i have is the loot I litterally regularly go 5 dungeons without a single drop. There needs to be a major rework in that department. They need to intoduce a currency or something that allows you to save up and buy whatever piece you want. Its crazy the amount of time I have wasted just farming one piece of loot. I dont think the limited death is a good idea based on exactly what you said here. The damage coming out in these dungeons is just ridiculous. COT and stonevault are downright unenjoyable as a healer. They need to cut out about half of the curses,poisons ect.. idk the tank/healer roll this season just need some major help.

[@ZenGardenOzone]

I'm glad you brought up COT and Stonevault, those dungeons are actually insane right now as a healer.

[@stonedruid]

You don't need to remove the timer, just make crest reward more consistent (like they are doing) and remove forced depletion. Then you can run your slow "no timer" key as much as you want until you are ready to try to climb. The timer is already a death limit, even if you dont have a timer penalty, you lose time having to repull and run back to the point you run out of time.

[@clintonweaver79]

That's a good idea. It also gives you the opportunity to practice a key.

[@jpvert5511]

My opinion is timer should 1000% stay.

[@AnnaAiLisa]

Timer is fine just remove the randomness of your key and the key depletion

[@19omegawolf]

Yeah lets try out the death count and see what happens. Might be good. Might be bad. Worth a shot.

[@romanroro866]

And how many death u want per key 100?

[@19omegawolf]

@romanroro866 Id leave that to blizzard. Im just open to change.

[@FallOut3Guru123]

An 8 delve has what 8 lives and it doesn't scale to group size right?

[@VulkanLivesAgain]

I think it would be great to have both. Want to do a timer and get rating/climb the ladder? Go with timed instances. Want to have a chill M+ with no timer but you can ramp up the difficulty for better rewards? Go with the non timed versions, but you get no rating. Id def not do a death limit. It does not solve much.

[@Cybelenn]

what if they add ways to increase your timer in the dungeons. like killing a boss faster or doing a side challenge that could be easier with certain comps. it could help if you have early wipes or hold certain cds for that challegene.

[@mrNeo525]

I would like to see multiple M+ modes. Something like HS - Standard without timer and nice gear from high keys, Timed M+ and Wild mode with random dungeons every/every other month and OP gear from these dungeons usable only for this wild mode.

[@cagwilliams]

The main thing with potentially changing to a death limit instead of a timer, is that there also needs to be a fundamental change in the mechanics and set up of the dungeons. Blizzard has a history of making these changes on one side, and not complimenting them with changes to the dungeons and mechanics that we have to deal with. I'm all for change, but it has to be done properly imo otherwise it will simply fail from the start. This is also how we should be thinking about these changes. Instead of thinking that ppl will just wait for lust, supposed there was a lust limit ? brez limit ? loose timer along with the death limit ?

[@necatos9162]

Fully agree ! To add to that :Big problem with non degrading keys is if one dps or healer or tank fucks up the first boss people will just be well we kick him and go out look for another one and go in again because nothing happened. This will cultivate a world where people will be kicked by one little mistake or bad dps because they fucked one cooldown up early in the dungeon.

[@Lordwolfie59]

They are so out of touch its actually insane lol. All we asked for was for challengers peril to be taken away make so its 5 second deaths again. Give us enough time that we can wipe on a key a few times and still make it out alive like DF season 3. I wish they would give us a season where key depletion didn't exist. Instead you just chose the level you wanted to do like a delve. Lets say you've done up to m+10 then let the people try m+11 and if they finish that then they can try M+12 etc.

[@Malavander]

No one waits for CDs in raids. I don't bother waiting in delves except for the last boss. You can reset bosses to get your CDs back. No reason it can't work the same way in hard dungeons. I just despise being rushed. M+ is like a 30 min boss fight where you can never pause or replace anyone. Speed running just doesn't feel very MMO. It will always favor classes with high burst, mobility, AOE stops and lust. Specs without these things get squeezed out of endgame.

[@yungelix]

My couple things are add a unranked version, so people can do keys at lighter levels to learn and only get vault out of it, And keep the unranked the same and remove the 15 sec timer or add 5 minutes to the timers or something like that to account for deaths u could have

[@dawittucker8749]

Just do lower keys the practice you can do this while farming crest.

[@mohamedalmuhairi324]

9:45 we try to run it normally, but we run out of time, M+ over +8 is very punishing, if you miss a kick you are dead :(

[@shafterbarkley7356]

This could just be a gearing situation.

[@mmdrahaman]

Yeah 8s might not be for you. Try doing lower keys until you guys get a better understanding of the dungeons.

[@ZenGardenOzone]

Get rid of Challengers peril, that affix is extremely stupid with how insane the damage is this season. Also, Tyrannical and fortified in the same week isn't actually fun but just make's the dungeons more stressful, bring back the fun affixes. Timer's are fine, balancing the dungeons/affixes, loot drops, and class diversity are why people are not having fun. Go back to BFA or Legion (the golden age of m+), those were the good days, and they had timers and the damage wasn't so incredibly bloated. They also need to get rid of degrading the keys, if you don't time a key it should just be the same rank but different dungeon. We need less punishment for playing M+ while also keeping true to it's nature, which blizzard has shown they can do time and time again.

[@entylsa]

"Toxicity from Accidental Deaths" for sure already exists, but primarily on higher key levels, this would introduce it to lower levels as well.

[@draconas86]

If they do the kill count they surely gonna kill m+, they have ti increase the drop of Gear, at least 3 drop for run, and increase the Gold gained in every run, 50 Gold are totaly useless when you spend 300/500 Gold on repair. And they have to add a vendor of the m+ Gear, or male possible to increase the Power of the Gear and higher Liv, tò transform a champion item in Hero and from Hero tò myth

[@ectogamut]

Kinda sounds like people want 5-player raiding. Give it to them. Make a separate mode with different rewards.

[@hiddenwanderer2872]

Timers are not the issue. Rewards and que times are the issue. How hard is it actually to do like 15 mounts or 15 skin variations of your gear dependent on your rating???? How hard is it to add something valuable at the end of a timed high key for every player??? The content and design is good, the rewards are bad. Content being hard is amaaaazing, Rewards for it are fucking shit. Spending time to reach more than 2.5k rate , or farming 10s for gear, has no fucking value. That is the main issue this content has.Not having rewards or incentives for anything above +10, is dauntless. So basically just to PUG from +11 to +12, for about 150 rating and 0 Rewards, an avg player pugging will spend about 20 hrs at LEAST to push for that. In those 20 hours all you get is numbers, nothing more. You get crests on gear you cant upgrade anymore, and a chance to get an upgrade for an item at your vault.....its fucking ridiculous really.

[@BeastMastery]

Yes remove them! Challenge is fun, stress is not. Timers can piss off.

[@dawittucker8749]

I don’t notice the timer tbh I play the game without it on my screen and I time nearly every key that’s an 11 and below

[@amsgame7148]

Timer's need to go. There should be NO reason why I can't step away for a minute if real life happens. Currenty, if you do that, you essentially waste time and potential keys for people who are relying on you. One alternative would be that the timer only goes WHILE you are fighting and pauses between mobs. Otherwise, the Delves seem to have it perfect. BUT to make it even better is YOU have your own death limit. Each player does. Die too many times, you don't get rewarded but so-and-so who did have extra lives left gets extra loot.

[@ChristophBrunner-d4n]

None of this solves the problem that there are 620 gearscore players that have been carried to a 2300 IO score that don't understand the mechanics. These people need to be weeded out EARLIER not later in the m+ rating. Giving people more crests and gear just pushes crappy players into higher keys which in turn creates lack of healers and tanks willing to pug keys. The problem is that Blizzard is trying to solve a problem that does not want to be solved. M+ is supposed to be the elite path for competitive and skilled players. Trying to build "paths" for poor talent to horizontally move from +12 delves into +8 keys is stupid. Imagine if Delves dropped pvp gear and those players all marched into rated pvp with great gear and no skill. they would get deleted.... and then they would complain about getting deleted.

[@nilohermes6447]

The timer should be an affix that kicks in much later, like on +10 or +12 for the sweatlords. Low keys should be much easier than they are atm because delves exist. To get the same reward as a +8 delve you have run a m+7 which ridiculous more challenging.

[@Demcn]

I think that they should remove the key item from the game, and keep the timer. That way we lose the "key depletion" aspect of the game and they should just make it a in game setting that you can run any dungeon you want at any difficulty, you can still make your group in lfg and invite people with the required io and ilvl. It can also help players farm an item they desire from a certain dungeon. This will also mitigate the damage from people leaving after wipes, since you can just start again with a new group and no big consequences other than some time lost. The difficulty with the dungeon and the timers will still remain so it will still be satisfactory to push keys.

[@EmoDragracer]

Haven’t watched the video yet (obviously 😅) but yea maybe something’s gotta change. I’ve been saying there should be an option when you put a key in. Time or not timed. If you choose not timed there’s no timer, you get two pieces of loot for the group and 15 crests. If you choose timed, it’s just like it is now and you maybe get an extra piece of loot and 20 crests. If you like being timed (like I do) you can. If you don’t, you don’t have to.

[@jani14jani]

How about 2 - 11 has a death counter and starting from 12 there is a timer? That way who play M+ more "casually" enjoy them more and get their vault. And those who play M+ more seriously for score can still compete for score.

[@1xxvipxx1]

1- They should Remove timers. 2- The dungeon gives the same reward regardless of death counts. (Just give an extra chest or the key upgrades at the end if you beat it without depleting the death count). 3- keep key level if deayh count depleted dont degrade it. 4- make us choose difficulty level up to the key level (so a level 8 key will make us set the dungeon from level 1 to 8 max) If that ks done people can farm what they want when they want stress free from ramdom bs.. you will be rewarded regardless no stress from tve gogogo crowed and the deaths are just there to enhance the reward you can have groups ignore them and be fine because the reward will still be appealing to finish.

[@vjr6939]

What is that movie “wag the dog”? Yea that, m+ does not have a timer problem but a stupid developer problem

[@ac230010]

How about cooldowns only count down while you are in combat? That fixes some of the valid issues you bring up. It's still open to abuse (keeping 1 mob in combat) but they could create counter measures against this abuse too. Another solution to a v alid issue you bring up is to link groups together like the old days so you cant just pull 3 mobs they are linked and all linked packs will agro.

[@ac230010]

There could also be no timer upto a +10 then there is a timer I feel like that could satisfy both groups.

[@ac230010]

Another idea: You decide at the start of the dungeon timer or no timer. You get +1 extra loot if you do timer and +2 loot if you ++.

[@Synthatic]

Make it a choice? When you set up a group, pick if it's a timer group or death limit group.

[@off-meta9962]

Make IT Like Monster Hunter. Give a graicouse timer (live timers +10/15 minutes) AND a death limit

[@vincejellison3139]

I think it should stay. It's a huge part on what star rating you get. Limited deaths would be silly.

[@Marc-le9vq]

Don't remove the timer, remove depletion and crest penalty. It's really that easy.

[@АртурБреус-т3н]

Leave a timer for high pushers so they can feel how good they are. For the rest, they can have all the time in the world if they wish. Just an idea to their idea

[@ugladden]

All that will do is give us bathroom breaks.. wont fix any core issue lol

[@christmasham4312]

lets get real here blizzard knows this downtimer thing they would figure something out

[@filumpie]

keep the timer, indeed afraid to get in a slow, less exiting envirement.

[@domino-1993]

blizz could make two keys stones one for timer and one for death run soo when u post it every one would join for that type of key run

[@necatos9162]

Dividing m+ community could lead to a big problem when you try to get in a key

[@heh701]

The first listed reason against removing the timer is "People may choose to wait for cooldowns and then they might get bored waiting for cooldowns". The 2nd reason against: "If we leave the timers in, there's more risk of bricking your key, which is bad for some reason". The 3rd reason against: "Bad players who brick a key because of dying might not have bricked the same key if it was timed! Because let's assume these same bads would have done extra damage after a wipe to make up, and the 15 second death penalties and time spent running back wouldn't matter."

[@That_kind_of_orc]

IMO timer should stay but the 15sec challengers peril sucks, 5sec punishment is fine like in DF. The kick only counting as interrupting also sucks so the stun is basically useless. I think what we should have is m+ like it was in DF but on top of that some improvements

[@Na0uta]

People are missing the forest for the trees man. We can have the timer. Just make it not matter to score or rewards. People can still play like they wanna get a super good time and others can ignore it. Or just make the timer only apply to things above the max reward. Like if loot item level caps out at 12, then timers only apply at +13 or above. Now people who want to push score still have their space to do it. I mean who is really out here acting like the +9 they 3 chested was something important?

[@CrazeyHaze]

So currently, you say a good tank waits for his CDs, then pulls big, then pulls smaller on next pack until your CDs are back up, rinse and repeat? And without the timer, people won't play like that?

[@sergiobaudino6749]

4 tanks and a healer, gg, top rank, time does not matter and we never die

[@gerlachwitz123]

what i really want is a "personal penalty system". instead of punishing the whole group for a stupid mistake like a DD standing in a easy dodgeable circle or sth. make it moreo f a personal penalty. blizz should track the avoidable dmg and for a certain HP reached, u lose 1 crest reward at the end.

[@hiddenwanderer2872]

Ye never gonna happen bro. There is no metrics that would be fair to actually calculate that.

[@gerlachwitz123]

@@hiddenwanderer2872 but one can dream :(

[@Duck4Evers]

In a world of infinite possibilities why couldn't you do both and just give higher rewards for a timer.

[@smallmach]

So I am mostly through your video here I have stopped at the 9:54 mark to write this so I haven't heard your last point of the people in favor of it Zuco and I think for me personally I hate the timer, you say that for you and those you play with you get this sense of satisfaction out of completing the dungeon is the time limit, and that removing that somehow diminishes that no it doesn't not for everyone. However where I have to disagree with you personally is how you are trying to break down that second point with you talking about how people don't need to do those skips that they see the high level keystone players do, they can do it normally but you than undermine your own argument by saying exactly what my argument is and that is that this higher end gameplay trickles down and I have been in plenty of groups who require you to know the skips, to do them, to know xyz and all that, I am sorry but I get no pleasure out of that, none, zero, zilch. The timer for me has just become stress inducing and while i haven't heard your last point that is on the side for those advocating getting rid of the timer I hate, HATE how bias people are for some specs and not inviting them because they are not meta at the moment, removing the death timer might open that up more for a more diverse roster. I only have one real criticism on this video though and that was how you used the extreme example of people doing 1 or two pulls than waiting for cooldowns than resting to get them back before another pull, that is a huge extreme for your to use as your example for keeping the clock and listen I am not saying it is wrong but your usually more balanced with the opinion on things that felt like the cheap road to use that and make it seem like that is what most groups would default to.

[@ZucoWoW]

Speaking to the point about higher end dungeons requiring skips, etc... My larger point there is that I've completed +12's now on every key and for every one of those dungeons except Necrotic Wake, we didn't need to use any fancy skips. The only difference was the way the tank pulled and how efficient they were being with those pulls compared to lower level keys. Are insane skips required at the very high end of keys, (like 15+)? Yes they are... Is that bad for the game. Again, I'd say no. I think it's okay that at the very high end, players are required to come up with creative strategies in order to time the key. But for the average player, these strategies are not required for any of the key levels they will be doing. As for my "extreme" example of players doing very small pulls if there was no timer on the dungeon, it wasn't even my example to begin with. I read that straight from the Wowhead article. That article had gathered opinions of many different players answers to the Blizz survey. It's really not that extreme. That's exactly what would happen. In fact, it would be silly not to dramatically slow down the pace of each dungeon. Taking any risks at all would be really dumb because the only way you can fail is if someone dies. And I think that would be really bad for M+ in general.

[@entylsa]

Every listed contra point alone is sufficient reason not to do it and every pro reason is easy to conter.

[@joveonlightbringer9684]

Meta with no timer would become 5x Prot Pally

[@EdwinHeida]

Timer is totally fine. That is not the issue. Depletion is the issue. Or rather the downgrading of the key. You achieved a +10? Then just keep that +10 permanently. And only allow folks in who also achieved that +10. this also gets rid of getting people in who never did a M+.

[@cindywagner49]

Sure as soon as they put more crest in level 8 delves gilded...and more ruined for 7 delves down ..also if you have more then 5 deaths in a key no rewards.

[@kittykatstealer]

I want a timer, cause I don't wanna spend an hour + for a dungeon

[@adamadamadam83]

I disagree what with you said at 11:30 Getting rid of the timer won't let non-meta classes have an easier time finding groups. it will just create a new meta. Probably one of classes with really good, but longs cooldowns or a meta of 5 tanks.

[@DanH465]

Aug will become even more mandatory.

[@Silentfeety]

Ni timer is fine, but penalty is bad. Crest buffs are good way forward . Just make less punishing for depleted keys.

[@Vaffel91]

Instead of changing m+, they should just add a different dungeon/raid mode. Call it MythicX, where they can experiment with different ideas. For example 10 player dungeons or something like that. I understand why blizz wants to cater to all types of players, but they need to give us more options than m+ and raiding. Keep m+ and raids like they are, they are perfect. Personally i dont like the competative aspect of m+, its just not my thing. I rather do something chill and relaxing like raids and megadungeons.

[@clockwork9011]

This is a bad idea! The timer is fine and no need to remove it!

[@shafterbarkley7356]

Nope. I like keys due to how fast they go by. And it'll crucify anyone who's super squishy.

[@agronas9565]

The answer is let the group decide whether THEY want a timer or a death limit... this is not hard, let players decide what they want as part of the dungeon M+ Death or Timer Limit.

[@Utheriss]

remove timer? no... wtf... defeats the whole purpose. its meant to be competitive. people need to get better, stop crying and actually fix themselves. its shown things can be done by the average person. get better

[@necatos9162]

Thank you this is so true if you want dungeons with no timer instead deaths than go do delves wtf

[@romanroro866]

Best comment u are Right Most people just suck and dont even know how to interrupt or use a def cd But if u leave now maybe u get banned so u waste 58mim in a gb+8 …

[@DSR93]

Kill depletion, leave the timer

[@jgro9]

yeah thats gonna be a no from me. no timer then youre just removing a massive part of the challenge. plus kids are going to legitimately pull around bloodlust and cds, they'll complete the key and have some false sense of satisfaction. never been a fan of participation trophies...then again i was born in the 90s.

[@bilbobaggins7095]

Then you have a meta of 3 tanks and 2 healers

[@perkulant4629]

Keep timer but remove the 15seconds penalty

[@thelastspectre8141]

Yeah....how did you complete your +50? Well you see I brought 1 class of each cc and just had someone banish this mob, sheep this mob, sap this mob, repentance that Mob, then pull the 1 mob at a time it took 7 hours and 3 hours of kiting each mob back to the beginning of the dungeon carefully making sure the tank didn't lose aggro with tricks and misdirects...and welp world first +50....yeah I don't want to see a mdi where pulls are 1 mob at a time to push the highest keys only to end up with 5 death deplete the key after 3 hours then people leave....it needs timers just doesn't need depletions

[@FallOut3Guru123]

How did u kill the boss tho

[@popojaga7312]

Break the meta is absolute dumb take from squishei, like ofc classes that have best defensives would be meta

[@FallOut3Guru123]

All of your tank points make no sense you pill 20 packs and as a bear at least the only extra button ur pressing is incarn I lunar beam and barkskin every single pack regardless

[@FallOut3Guru123]

And with a death cap guess what it doesn't stop people from speed running look at classic people speed run raids for godsake. This allows both communities to live in the same space most of the people I talk to that don't like keys are just stressed over the timer. And people tht speed run get more currency so it still incentiveses people to speed run like ur on a timer.

[@georgecatalin7150]

GET RID OF THE TIMER PLS !!!!!

[@motpoggie]

just have both

[@dmoneciro]

I like the concept

[@cs.esmaeili]

just remove key depletion

[@georgecatalin7150]

Dude, srry...M+ is not only abt MDI...wake up!

[@mnn1265]

The timer is dumb, it creates incredible toxicity in the game. No wonder so few people even play Mythic plus anymore.

[@Scott_72]

Idk why everyone gets so riled up about people who want to wait for cool downs and take it slow. You may find it boring, I would find it boring, but if people want to play that way why do you care? It doesn't take away from your ability to clear the dungeon in 10 minutes just cuz they took 4 hours by waiting for cooldowns. Just another elitist take IMO.

[@FallOut3Guru123]

Exactly anyone who disagrees with this point is unhinged and should seek help

[@domino-1993]

the issue is the tuning not the timer most tanks cant pull big and survive most players loved big pulls before in dragonflight cause the tuning was better for the most part was not perfect of course but still . when blizz made these dungeons hard it incentivized tanks too pull smaller soo if they did do a death limit yhea more people would pull smaller again witch most tanks do in 4s too 7 keys the 1% of tanks in 12s will still pull big because that's how the brain functions not saying all will do that but the majority willl why do u think that when u invite that high io tank with a low io healer in a 7 key in a pug that the tank still pulls big and the healer cant handle that pull the majority of the time if they made the tuning like dragonflight again or close too it people would be able too push better and the 1% will still do high keys nothing changes for them really as a example I've seen soo many vids of high end players saying how bad darkflame cleft would be if the tuning is not done right and if the tuning is the same next season as it is this season its just gonna be bad for 75% of the player base the reason its soo hard too get into 12s and 13s is because not enough people have hit that threshold of skill i have a lot of friends that in dragonflight that could do 12s in season 4 but now cant even get past a 8 or 9 because blizz forced a skill push back of what people could do way more people could push in dragonflight all im saying they went too far with the dungeon changes .even soo they could just increase timers cause they reduced those too witch is another issue on top of tuning but this is my opinion on this topic :)

[@jakeknoll9799]

No

[@XAn0nymousX0]

Yeah just get rid of timers, affixes, difficulty. Just get rid of mythic+ at this point. The people currently playing it clearly don't like m+ at all. Which begs the question, why are you playing? The current group of players are the most entitled group of players I've ever seen. They want max gear rewards for 0 effort. Just want to "big blast huge aoe, big numbers no mechanics" and get free loot. Why are you playing this game? Go play diablo bro. You can spam aoe for free loot all day there.