Should you play late 78s on early machines?

‪@Tmilitaria‬ asked why I have said it is not advisable to play later 78s on earlier machines. This is a video response which I hope will be helpful. Comments, suggestions and other opinions welcome. Thanks 😀👍
#gramophone
#78rpmshellac
#78rpm
#phonograph
#victrola

[@stereogramfan]

I’ve played late 78s on the 101 before. The latest one I played was from 1958, with a half tone needle. It did well. I only really use soft tone now for all my 78s. And Pye probably put some grit or whatever in the vinyl mixture so it wouldn’t get ruined on older equipment. I tried a poor copy of a Platters Pye vinyl 78 on the 101 once and it made it through.

[@mrrgstuff]

That's interesting to hear. The 101 will be significantly less damaging than a really early machine, though obviously not as gentle as a 1950s electric pickup. I didn't know that about PYE records either. Thanks 😀 👍

[@stereogramfan]

@@mrrgstuff I’m only guessing that about Pye vinyl 78s, because they are tough discs. The hard vinyl 78s they made, if in good condition, sound better than the competition, so I’ve been told. Thanks, Liam.

[@neilgoloy3582]

Truly interesting. The information you provided is most helpful. Many thanks.

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍

[@Cassidy1251]

Thanks for making this vid. I plan on purchasing an old columbia grafonola c2 from my local church thrift sale and I had the same question

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. Glad you found it useful 😀

[@neilc5192]

Hello Sir Some good updated information from Arizona. I make and sell gasket to a customer of mine in New York State. He is, I believe, a top expert in Orthophonic soundboxes. The information is: never again use solder to attach the needle bar to the spider. It important now to use “gelled super glue” . One drop is all it takes and done. Easy! I now know from experience that the way to do it. Hope this helps. Regards, Neil

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks. That's really interesting to hear. I have used liquid super glue for some of my own soundbox builds, but hadn't thought about the gel version to glue to aluminium diaphragms. Thanks again 😀 👍

[@NippersLounge]

Well done!

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍

[@NippersLounge]

@@mrrgstuff you’re welcome!

[@tarstarkusz]

Wind up gramophones were nearly unheard-of in the post war period in the US (other than old units). Electric pickups had come a long way and tonearms had become very light by like 1947 (Zenith made their snake head cartridge and stylus in 1947, I think). Then you have the 33 vs 45 (both vinyl microgroove) format war of the late 40s. Most 78s made in the US in the post war period were vinyl. In the US, anything recorded in about 1927 and forward were electrically recorded. Shortly after, electric reproducers were becoming common, though they were still pretty heavy with large horseshoe magnets. But even the mechanical reproducers were much better than the old ones. In the US, your best best is anything pressed before the war is reasonably safe with a wind up gramophone, but anything after the war is not.

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, that is all pretty much my understanding, too. Thanks for sharing, I didn't know all the details you mentioned. It seems shellac records stayed in production longer in the UK, and in places like India, actually went into the 1960s. I have heard that the very early Beatles records were pressed as 78s there, though not sure if shellac or vinyl. Thanks 😀 👍

[@tarstarkusz]

@@mrrgstuff I think they were still in use, but not especially mainstream.

[@nationstationmusic227]

Frank Sinatras 1940s Columbia year 78s would be a good example of this

[@Music_diplomat]

I love your videos😀

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. That is very kind of you to say! 😀

[@walkingtheboogie]

Interesting video. The Lonnie Donagon records had multiple orrssings with the same publication date, so you can find vinyl 78s of songs that initially came out on shellac.

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, that's a very good point. Thanks 😀 👍

[@digidoridvideos3672]

Im very late to this but you can play later record on acoustic phonograph. you need soft tone needles or small quilting needles.

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, indeed. Though as I try to show in this video there are other considerations like tracking and soundbox design. It's not a simple yes/no answer. Thanks 😀 👍

[@juslitor]

I played one late 50´s record on my HMS, even with a soft needle the volume was unpleasantly loud with weird resonances.

[@jeb419]

The later records were equalized for RIAA sound playback, so they won't sound proper on wind up gramophones.

[@juslitor]

@@jeb419 Do you have any links to articles proving riaa was used with 78 rpm records ? I know some record makers used their own equalization schemes, but i never heard of riaa being used for 78´s.

[@jeb419]

@@juslitor I have a book which breaks down the the equalization used for most record labels. Sun records 78 for instance used RIAA. I don’t have links because it’s a book.

[@juslitor]

@@jeb419 Good enough for me, thanks for the info.

[@mrrgstuff]

It's an interesting point about RIAA correction, though I not found too much of an issue in practice, certainly not with playing uncorrected records on equipment that then adds unnecessary RIAA correction (ie old records on new record players). It certainly could have a detrimental effect, though. Thanks 😀👍

[@tiga4180]

Have given this issue more thought as I've gained experience as a collector. Firstly, so many early machines seem to give little thought to tracking, important for efficient transfer of vibrations to the diaphragm. Often tone arms are short, to save materials perhaps? Soundbox weight is also an issue. For me, the main concern, re later 78's is compliance. Can a relatively stiff mechanics really follow those higher amplitude grooves. Less obvious may be the weight/inertia of the stylus bar mechanics. Can they really follow the higher frequencies found in later 78's? My view is, if you want to play later 78's acoustically, use an HMV Orthophonic 5A or 5B, with its lighter stylus bar, diapphragm, & high compliance. A soft tone needle will also improve sound & reduce wear.

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, all very good points. I have a few ideas for videos around this theme. Thanks for sharing 👍 😀

[@Timothycan]

Probably the late 40s and 1950s records were really intended to be only played with an electric pickup, although they would play on an acoustic machine. You can get away with it by using a soft tone (thin) needle, and if your gramophone has means of reducing volume (such as doors that close over the horn) then that helps. But in my experience, those 'modern' records will be damaged by an acoustic machine, particularly at the high-pitch frequencies. You will notice that when playing the record again later, with an electric pickup.

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, very good points. Thanks for sharing 👍 😀

[@andrefiset3569]

I tried a Erna Sack 78 on my Victor Exhibition and her C7 note turned the surface of the record from black to white.

[@mrrgstuff]

Doesn't sound good 😕. As I am sure you know, the grey grooves on records are caused by excess wear

[@walkingtheboogie]

@mrrgstuff I didn't know that, but I do now. Cheers.

[@amirsyazli1621]

I know Columbia records and some other record companies added a little something called “lam” I think but it for the record to not break quite easily as they added the lam in between two shellacs, but if it breaks, then it’s called a lam crack as the lam is exposed and it mostly happens when the record have a bad hairline crack or chipped of the record. There you can see the lam exposed. I do have some 78s made with vinyl but those are extremely rare but luckily my friend have a couple of them and he does not want them as he don’t exactly have a record player as he sold it away, so he gave them to me and I quite liked it, the sound is less surface noise than a shellac record! But there is some surface noise as it has seen better days. Those plastic 78s I got were all by RCA Victor and the artist for all the records is Tony Martin for some reason. These records are on the white label and it says not for sale, I have a feeling it’s a radio broadcast record meant for radio station back then. What do you think? Anyways in summary of ur video, just play your early 78s on a record player with special 3mil stylus and if you really want to play ur early 78s on ur gramophone, then find one worthless and somewhat you like on the machine, oh yeah and also play your extremely old 78s on a record player too as the gramophone needle might where off the groove easily due to their age. Anyways thanks!

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, I have seen Columbias too, which are a sort of laminate. There is shellac on the outside and some sort of white material which shows through on chips and cracks. Vinyl 78s are pretty uncommon here too, though I have 2 or 3. The white labels you mention might be tests pressings. Thanks for the very comprehensive comment 👍 😀

[@CoolDudeClem]

Kind of off topic, but how do you know when each record was made? Most of the 78's I have don't have a date printed on them anywhere.

[@mrrgstuff]

It's a good question. I'll try and do a video on it soon. Thanks 😀 👍

[@Kevin-yi8fd]

Thankyou for your video i haven't many 1950s 78s because i don't like the music on them best thing to play them on a modern record player that's what i do with mine.😊😊😊

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, indeed. Early machines are really not suitable for 1950s records. I don't have many, either! Thanks 😀 👍

[@AlbertBenajam-ww1db]

Thus us s GOOD discussion of/ 1...Tone Arms & tracking 2...Materials of records There are OTHER factors that I will cover. ONE Record volume and needle excursion The PRE.ELECTRIC that is Accoustc records have low intrinsic volume, but records made after introduction of electric recording have groves with greater Volume & excursion. The result that you are playing at higher volume than machine made for, causing distortion. Acoustic machines made after 1925, were made for electric records and so this is NOT a factor. These includs 1920s Victorr OTHOPHONIC Columbia VIBITONIAL Brunswick PanaTrobes

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍

[@philipsharples615]

I noticed on the video that the record from 1957 was on the PYE NIXA Label is vinyl. PYE also had the licence for MERCURY label releases from the USA . Playing vinyl 78s with a steel needle will destroy the record.

[@mrrgstuff]

Indeed. I didn't know the detail behind the NIXA label. Thanks for that. I did select that record for the video, partly as it is one of the very latest I have, but also as it wasn't shellac. Thanks 😀 👍

[@philipsharples615]

@mrrgstuff Hello again. PYE NIXA lost the license for press American MERCURY LABEL releases late 1957 . EMI Pressed for the MERCURY label in the UK in 1958 but they were on shellac. At this point the label colour changed from light blue to black . I don't know if you are a collector or not, but I hope you find this of interest.

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. I'm a bit of a label collector, though really only pre WW2 and what I am really looking for is pre WW1 stuff. Found some interesting records today which will hopefully be in a video soon 🙂

[@0michelleki020]

How do you identify what year a record is made? i have tried to look it up but only got confused.

[@mrrgstuff]

It's a good question. I'll try and do a video on it soon. Thanks 😀 👍

[@Thefastestclassintf2]

hm know i dont know if my turntable machine is alright but for some reason it can play all records even the very old ones and new ones to every single one am not sure if this is alright 🤔

[@mrrgstuff]

If it is a modern electric one, then it won't damage records like very old gramophones. The size of the stylus is different for 78rpm records and 45/33rpm vinyl records so it is quite common for machines to have 'flip' cartridges to cope with both: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q2XIl4p-jaiZf6ssi=WITPqKVie582ujOk Thanks 😀 👍

[@Thefastestclassintf2]

oh okay thanks for the info mrgstuff! 😄

[@2philips1955]

78s from 1900 to 1930s are sounding very well on my HMV 101 or my other one from the 1920s. 1940s 78s are different - some do - some do not. But 78s from the late 50s or early 60s are almost like vinyl (and some a r e vinyl). They are not made for mechanic reproduction. It sounds much too loud and destroys the records. I play every record on a record player of the same decade, 78 or vinyl. My oldest wind up portable is from 1925 and my latest turntable is from 1990s

[@mrrgstuff]

Yes, that's similar to my experiences too. Thanks for sharing 👍 😀

[@oldradiosnphonographs]

Nah. I only play late 78s on my 1940s and 50s turntables.

[@mrrgstuff]

@@oldradiosnphonographs Fair, enough 😀👍

[@FSCforal]

Have you heard of streaming ? 😂

[@theweirdospfan.28]

Most of this stuff isn’t available on streaming. Plus records have a better sound

[@AlbertBenajam-ww1db]

2 and machines like 40s/60 kids phonos or portable mafe up to 6ps for 78s only with ackustic soundboxes. Another is hidden thing called EQUILIZATION or TECORDING CUTVES. The first of these was called, FFRR, others apprared over the first decade after WW2. Since 1954, records sold in USA have RIAA EQILIZATION. 2hat thismeans is PistWar tecords are 'docotkred" in certain eays. Latter even accoustic machines were made for these. But PreWar machine includung of course cant compensate for "doctoring" that didn't exist when they weere made. The upshot of this i 1950 records sound worse on old machinrs, and early 20s s9und worse on say a 1958 Voice 0f Music portable than on a Victrolà the uear it was made.

[@mrrgstuff]

Thanks 😀 👍. Yes, equalisation curves are certainly a factor. Although, in theory I could correct for these when editing the video, I haven't tried that yet.

[@AlbertBenajam-ww1db]

At the end of your video you show a postwar HMV soundbox, at that time all contemporary records were electric and HMV did make portables into the 60s. Children's spring wound phonographs were made in USA into the 50s. The selling points on the package stressed no electricity dangers, safe for children. Children's 6 and 7 inch records were 78 speed into early 70, when kids record market became 45. At a toy store around 1970, I saw a 7inch spring wound ACCOUSTIC kids player on sale with both 45 and 78 speeds but don't know if it was old stock or something currently made.

[@AlbertBenajam-ww1db]

Kids 78 7inch records were still made also in late 60s with the current Kate 60s copyright dates. I think the persistence of 78speed was also due to old record players given to kids.

[@BOYKISSER.225]

Could you help me m'y gramophone won't spin and i dont know how to fixe it could you do a vidéo of this problem please