Sian Sutherland: "Innovating the Business of Plastics" | The Great Simplification #89

[@peterclark2374]

Another interesting conversation. Thanks Nate and Sian.

[@solennemarie5705]

NATE YOU KEEP SMASHING IT WITH THESE GUESTS !!! AMAZING! Thank you for diversity of knowledge and solutions you bring! Thank you Sian for your life's work! 🌍 ♻️ 🙏🏼

[@cdineaglecollapsecenter4672]

When I was young, you would buy a sturdy case of bottled beer & pay a deposit on the case. Then when you needed another case, the liquor store would switch it out & send the original bottles back to the brewery to be refilled. Totally inconceivable now.

[@Lanthanideification]

These still exist in New Zealand, called swappa crates. Not nearly as popular as it used to be, but still going!

[@jacquelinepeeters7421]

Still the case in Canada for alcohol

[@cameronveale7768]

Another great conversation Nate. Chemicals and plastics scare me. Perhaps because there are so many unknowns from the 'new car smell' to moving into a new build home with all the off gassing, let alone plastic everywhere one looks. Growing up in the 1960's in Canada plastics were just starting to take over much packaging etc. I can still remember seeing the end of real wood siding on cars, glass milk bottles etc. Shopping with my parents at the market was seasonal meat sold in butcher paper, veggies in some kind of paper wrap. Much of that world is long gone. And what chemicals have now exited into the bio sphere and causing who knows what side effects. Always reminded of Gregory Benford's Timescapefroim 1980 on algal blooms and diatoms creating almost a canfield ocean from all the chemical pesticidies creating an ecological disaster in the oceans. Still time and hope to make changes but the clock ticks. thanks Nate

[@dbadagna]

A 2020 study from Italy found microplastics in fruits and vegetables (especially apples and carrots, whose roots are more porous) ranging between between 52,050 and 233,000 particles per gram (gram!) of fruits or vegetable.

[@Withnail1969]

Like many people you're scared of the wrong things. You should be scared of having no food, heating or electricity. Imagine what that's going to be like.

[@Ascending4111]

As a retired builder I have learned to use more wood surfaces rather than sheetrock and toxic latex paint.

[@liamtaylor4955]

There are so many threatening problems it's overwhelming. I'm done. I'm just going to stop reading and start travelling again, I have the time and money, why should I give it up when the game is lost anyway? I've wasted two years of my life being a biosphere "good boy" while so few others are doing the same. I'll spread the message about human over-consumption and environmental degradation, and seeking solutions, while I'm flying and while I'm touring-that will make it better, at least.

[@cdineaglecollapsecenter4672]

"It's governments' job to mandate that industry do that faster (reduce plastics)". I agree with that, but I also think that individual consumers should avoid plastics as much as possible. The most annoying is the plastic encasing foods. I can avoid buying clothes but I can't avoid buying food. Great guest, Nate, thank you.

[@antonyjh1234]

I would say the issue then would be why one market and not another? Why allow car races still if some light wrapping is banned?

[@robinschaufler444]

Gotta start somewhere. @@antonyjh1234

[@antonyjh1234]

We already have with plastic straws, hows that changed oil consumption? Probably not changed it at all because that oil would have just got used elsewhere. There is 10.6kw of energy in every litre of diesel, why not ban the most polluting thing 1st, instead of transferring plastic straw pollution. Saying you have to start somewhere but never thinking about the goal needing accomplished doesn't mean much. @@robinschaufler444

[@stephenboyington630]

John Stewart had a great observation on recycling: he knew recycling was a bit of a racket when they made the bins out of plastic.

[@life42theuniverse]

In the heart of the earth, a treasure sleeps, Fossil fuels, like secrets, buried deep. Once abundant, now they wane, Their scarcity, humanity's bane. Silent whispers of ancient days, Burned for light, heat, and the engine's blaze. But now the wells grow dry and tired, While the world's demand has not retired. The sun and wind, we harness true, Yet their power seems but a meager due. The rivers run, the turbines turn, But the energy gap continues to yearn. Beneath our feet, the coal beds thin, Oil wells echo, an empty din. Gas fields falter, their bounty spent, Leaving us in energy lament. Renewables rise, with promise bright, Yet struggle to match the fossil's might. For the populations ever swell, In energy needs, we're caught in a spell. As the sun sets on the fossil age, We face a turning, unwritten page. Can we adapt, will we find a way, To power the world by the break of day? A question hangs in the smoky air, A challenge for all, to do their share. To innovate, conserve, and care, For the energy future we all share. GPT4 - "The dimming of the fossil flame"

[@derekteetv]

Glad to hear someone focusing on the must-solve problem of plastic, which gets ignored as people argue over electric cars. Fantastic ideas.

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

"as people argue over electric cars" ....and heat pumps.

[@carolspencer6915]

Micro and Macro indeed. Tears and smiles all at once really! Scary, shocking and wonderful shared candid conversation. Most Grateful Nate and Sian for the work you do. 💜

[@greg7404]

And yet another educational and enlightening discussion - THANK YOU Nate! - We love what you're doing here!

[@AntonOfTheWoods]

In mainland China and Hong Hong the plastic use is absolutely insane. Individual biscuits (cookies) get wrapped in plastic, then put in thick plastic packets and put in plastic shopping bags. People look at you like there's something wrong with you when you say you don't need a shopping bag. The key is that they just aren't thinking about it at all. In Europe maybe 30-40% are reasonably annoyed about the situation but here it's maybe 2%. I'm not optimistic...

[@reuireuiop0]

Your 2,4% still is quite optimistic. I think it s lot less than 1 in 50

[@brushstroke3733]

Consumerism is driven by status seeking. The Chinese are as susceptible as everyone else to wanting to show their social status and rank through conspicuous consumption. Most people are so ignorant and zombie-like that there may be no hope of waking them up to their foolish behaviors.

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

i heard, that in the Philippines it's common that every item you buy is put in a small plastic bag and these are all then put in a big plastic bag... just to be thorough..

[@AntonOfTheWoods]

@@reuireuiop0 I would say I know about 50 people reasonably well here (enough to know such preferences anyway), and exactly one of them cares. Not particularly scientific, true!

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

Would be good to discuss the crazy growth in plastics production and reasons why.. I believe fracked oil and gas, and conventional gas have high fractions of lighter fractions, ethane etc that really only have one pathway for use now, that is plastics , in large part these underpin, as an example, the 391 million tons of plastics produced in 2021. That's a cube with 700m sides...

[@robinschaufler444]

I'm totally on board with what A Plastic Planet is doing. Now retired from software development, I make clothes, starting with fleece shorn off the sheep, in the hopes of turning it into a craft business. I can't even scale it to a point where I can have a table in craft shows. I focus on wool and other long-lasting, highly functional, bio-degradable materials from animals and plants. May I make two suggestions to A Plastic Planet? 1. Please invest in flax to linen industry. Flax uses far less water than cotton, and is less susceptible to pests. The price difference between conventional and organic cotton is huge, probably because of the crop loss without pesticides. Organic linen is cheaper than organic cotton and can be substituted for most cotton or cotton/poly fiber, or even silk and rayon. It makes great thread. In my household, we iron after the first couple of washings, and after that, hang linen laundry to dry, weighted by clothespins. No more ironing needed, ever. 2. Not only does the fashion industry need to be disincentivized somehow from pushing ever changing fashion for profit, it needs to be incentivized to raise prices across the board, and make longer-lasting clothes using equitable labor practices. Rather than high price being an indicator of luxury, it needs to become an indicator of quality, and seen as an investment rather than a discardable consumable. If the middle classes saw a $300 100% merino sweater, coming with a moth-repelling cedar block, a sample packet of wool wash, and care instructions that, if followed, will make it last a lifetime, the new business model could be sustainable for the planet and for clothing businesses alike.

[@Withnail1969]

Do you think we can clothe more than 8 billion humans with such methods?

[@57stapler]

Perhaps silly, and trivial? Grocery store chain ALDI recently stopped making ANY disposable plastic bags available for purchases. This came after a while of charging customers like 13 cents per bag. I do go in ALDI a good bit, and notice people still using "disposable" ALDI bags that have not been available for almost a year now. In addition to keeping empty bags in my car specifically for the purpose, I also occasionally dump my own "bag of bags" from other stores at ALDI -rather than the alternatives of passing them off on the dog family next door, or just finally throwing them all out. Also interesting is where ALDI makes cardboard boxes from items they've stocked available for customers to put their purchases into. Residents of former Soviet countries had a culture of carrying a small net bag at all times in the event that something rare may spontaneously come available in a store. I do not know the word for it, but I think it translated to a "maybe bag". A few points of specific relevance from the ALDI reference are that lots of folks made/make a substantial effort to avoid paying 13 cents for a bag, one NEVER sees ALDI bags littered about/stuck in trees etc., and to my knowledge -ALDI has not closed any stores.

[@brushstroke3733]

It drives me nuts how the plastic industry games the system every where and every time someone tries to limit their production. They created the recycling movement in the 90's to sell more plastics, knowing that plastics were basically not recyclable. And then they banned single use plastic bags, only to make bags three times as thick knowing that most consumers are too lazy or vain to actually reuse any of them. In effect, the bag ban resulted in consumers using more plastic, not less. Personally, I very rarely purchase new bags as I almost always bring one or two with me everywhere I go and limit my purchases to what I can carry in my hands. Consumerism and corporate control of government are a two-headed dragon (super organism) that is going to be very hard for us to kill. Chop one head off and it seems to just grow two more.

[@RichRich1955]

Then municipalities make residents buy plastic trash bags for trash pickup

[@mpetry912]

golly she is so right ! everything in the grocery store has plastic packaging. great topic Nate !

[@FREEAGAIN432]

wow. Really enjoyed this talk. Thank you Nate and Sian. There were many inspiring pieces of information and recommendations for practical solutions. I really hope we are moving away from mindless consumerism and towards conscious interactions with all the resources we use and consume. Minimalism can really help lead the way. THE GREAT SIMPLIFICATION, as Nate says.

[@Ascending4111]

We dig up ancient artifacts everyday around the world. When they dig up our products 1000 yrs from now the conclusion will be that we are the insane consuming humans that we are today. I always had a problem with waste from an early age. We now live simply and stay home on our pesticide, herbicide free farm. We produce most of what we need on the farm and dispose of about one 50-gallon waste bin every 3 months. Most of which is construction waste as we maintain our farm. We went from being worth millions as builder developers to this life of freedom. Never felt wealthier or healthier.

[@rolfvanharen]

Nate thank you again for this slam dunk episode... Thank you Sian..

[@anewagora]

We have to start with our own lifestyles and make whatever improvements we can. Because most people still treat the ecological and economic crisis as an abstract massive beast and they lay down to do nothing. Every time we get a habit out of mass produced industrial systems, we learn an insane amount of information and even CREATE local chains of production that didn't exist before. Everything scales up from meaningful, respectful relationships. I'm not interested in more people rambling about govt bans while we sit here subjected to toxic, miserable jobs and systems. I'll be making a vermicompost bin with my friend out of wood and metal we found, free of plastics. I'll be using that bin for as many years as it lasts. The learning and relationships that come out of that project are irreplaceable.

[@everythingmatters6308]

I recommend "The Humanure Handbook" by Joe Jenkins.

[@robinschaufler444]

Improving our own personal sustainability footprint helps in that we act as guinea pigs - a trial run for what we wish for society. We notice when we encounter something difficult to impossible. Then we have to ask what about the "system", the human superorganism, makes it so hard. I have to shower daily, or my friends will shun me. But if hot water were a rare luxury, everyone would shower less, and my reduction in showers would not make me a pariah. Like pre-industrial times. I examine each and every facet of my daily routine, and there are dozens if not hundreds of things like that.

[@Withnail1969]

@@robinschaufler444 Why live like a monk if you don't have to? Others will just use the resources that you abstain from. It makes no difference at all.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

I appreciate this episode very much. Thank you.

[@jtetteroo2919]

Nate, it was quite the pleasant surprise to see you in the VPRO backlight documentary in my country. Good stuff. The more people become aware, the better.

[@cmw3737]

Food packaging that needs to last a few weeks but actually last decades is the biggest mismatch in requirements in the world. Seaweed based film should be the standard and there's no excuse to continue to use plastic to wrap food. Tax all single use plastic and tax it even more if it's mixed with another material that make is harder to recycle, whether that's another plastic or paper or metal.

[@jonathantrautman]

I was hanging on super well until we described King Charles as the epitome of what we're supposed to be doing that's....too much way toooo rich lol but this is all great stuff!!!

[@electrosyzygy]

hit pause and came reading the comments for this. It was a bit of a wtf moment tbh. A poor choice of example.

[@Lanthanideification]

Things are made in large factories for economies of scale and then shipped around the world because transportation is relatively cheap. Moving to local economies by definition will be more expensive (because transportation becomes expensive enough that only necessities are shipped long distances). That means the average consumer can buy fewer things with their money, which generally is perceived as a lower standard of living. People will not voluntarily choose a lower standard of living. If you think the world wide inflation of the last couple of years has been bad, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

Right, we can only buy what is offered on the markets. Thank you.

[@c.s.102]

Yes, that documentary The Minimalist got me going. I have done last two years 'a 1000 things'. This will be my 3th year and I noticed well maybe I don't make it a thousend pieces this year. So set a new goal for upcoming year 500 pieces to donate, sell or trash. Plastic out of my house is unfortunately not doable but I got rid of every piece of plastic that I am now aware off. I think I am buying myself a fountan pen with refills. I love to write. In one month I have allready 300 pieces, clothes, books, cd's, art supllies 😮 the awarenes is still growing. The consumption mind is deeply bedded in my consciousness. And I am not a big spender at all.

[@jjuniper274]

Industry and regulatory bodies are not idle. Every 6 months the EU adds more substances to the REACH-SVHC list. It's currently up to 235. RoHS is another one that's been around for decades. California Prop 65 has well over 1100 substances with zero di minimus. PFAS had at least 4500 substances and is growing, PFAS can really be an endless list, the studies that were performed to my knowledge were on low molecular weight per and polyfluouroalkys. The other 4500+ have not been studied for toxicity. Each country and often, each State in the US has its own regulations. SARA 313, TSCA, CFR, the list is quite endless.

[@DavidJones-gr1fb]

I don't really disagree with what Sian is saying but what she proposes goes way deeper into our way of life in the modern world. Talking about packaging is the simple topic. The average household in the UK and US has at least 3000 objects derived from oil and gas, most of them being plastics. The room she is in doesn't look like it was constructed out of wood or timber does it. She has a token metallic looking microphone but the cable to it is plastic sheaved. Nate's microphones and head phones are practically made out of plastic.

[@robinschaufler444]

Gotta start somewhere. But timber and metal aren't sustainable either. The industrial revolution was initiated by England switching from firewood to coal for cooking and heating. Why did England switch? It was deforested. Well, deforestation around the world has gotten worse, not better. THERE IS NOT A SUSTAINABLE BUILDING MATERIAL ON THE PLANET. Not for 8B humans, anyway.

[@Withnail1969]

It's just feel good nonsense. She has no clue what the actual problem is which is depletion of the resources needed to keep us alive.

[@dbadagna]

@@Withnail1969 She said in the interview that we're using two earths worth of resources per year.

[@Withnail1969]

@@dbadagna Yes we are. If we stop doing that we die.

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

The dumbest thing I have seen made out of plastic was this green plastic garnish for sushi, sort of ersatz seaweed, I asked the person serving me why they use it and they looked at me perplexed, like I had two heads.. I struggle with optimism..

[@logantauson789]

And that right there is your matriarch embodied. What a wonderful conversation that was does broad and detailed. Could not agree more. We need to put down all of the animosity and greed that has been bred throughout generations, fire own doing, which is a huge ask. But if we don’t, and if we don’t start focusing on solutions, we are going to run out that patch. This is not a movie And we are responsible for an ending. Thank you, Both

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

When Sian said that she became aware of the problem before most people did, and suggested that few people knew before David Attenborough's Blue Planet episode 2017, where an albatros was seen stuffing waste plastic down the throat of its chick because it was unable to find enough fish, I thought how I had been aware at some point in the seventies, and had spoken to others of my concerns and found many that felt the same, that we would have an ever increasing amount of packaging littering our towns and countryside - we could see it then beginning to happen. But then when she went on to decribe the situation in the Atacama desert and in Ghana, I realised she had leap frogged ahead of me with her knowledge of what was happening, and I knew that once again Nate had found a guest who could bring new knowledge and thinking to my attention. So, with today Rishi Sunak back-pedalling on climate change action, would it be reasonable to suggest that we might think about 'plastic capture and storage' as an interim measure just as carbon capture and storage is seen as a strong contender to have a role in how we deal with CO2. PCS would just be another form of CCS and somewhat easier to do, I would think. I very much doubt that we will find a 'permanent solution'. Sian's idea of re-using bottles sounds great but how will the energy use compare with today's madness?

[@robinschaufler444]

Plastic Capture & Storage may work for bottles and other packaging, but not for laundry, which Sian blamed for the lion's share of plastic in the ocean.

[@AlanDavidDoane]

"Business is the tool of change." Definitely. Look what it's changed our planet into in the past 300 years. Business is the problem, not the solution. I appreciate the effort to have many voices heard, Nate, but come on. You know better than this. As well-intentioned as she may be, this is not the way to a great simplification. It'll just break the planet even more.

[@Joeyjojoshabbadoo]

I gotta say the degree to which she implored the peasant masses to take it easy on the wealthy industrialists, and maybe try to help and inspire our socioeconomic betters to clean up their act, but surely don't blame them or castigate them, as that accomplishes nothing and we're all just human beings in the end.... And rather we need to champion them if ever they make the slightest gesture, which really isn't happening at all as far as I can see.... Good lord. This is two guests in a row that are not exactly inspiring.

[@guapochino140]

Imagine a future where battery-powered, silent vehicles come and deliver fresh milk and juice in glass bottles to your doorstep every morning while you are sleeping and collect the previous day's empties for cleaning and re-use. Seems like some impossible utopia.

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

I think the weather would have to be colder, otherwise the clink of the bottles wouldn't sound quite right.

[@jjuniper274]

I like that she doesn't want to shame, but work with industry.

[@AnniesEggs]

If anything it is more difficult for me to avoid plastic for food and household goods (detergent, soap, cleaner, washing-up liquid) because local refill businesses are going out of business left, right and centre. I'm aware of three in the last year in my local area. So, I want to reduce my plastic use but the options are not there unless I stop bathing, cleaning and eating soft fruit.

[@chookbuffy]

My wife has some refill stations in her very small organic/local shop. They are definitely not there for margin. Still if every supermarket was obligated to provide such services that could force people to acknowledge their role in minimizing waste

[@kirstinstrand6292]

​@@chookbuffyA few years ago, some grocery stores had a receptacle for plastic bags. No longer in my area of the US. I think the EU is more concerned. 🤔

[@kirstinstrand6292]

I wish there were a test to determine the amount of plastics in our blood.

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

I've always preferred clothes made made from natural fibres, particularly cotton, but this is said to be a problem too with respect to water. What should we do?

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

We must all return to live in Africa and enjoy wearing nothing more than a loincloth. This would release more space here (UK) for Africans to be welcomed with open arms. Actually Spain would probably be far enough south with GW.

[@zpettigrew]

The things you own - end up owning you. Being in the Military and College at the same time - I had to minimize and streamline my life. I was able to reduce my cost of living by 50-54%. Only used glass or metal containers for food/water (they last longer). Everything I owned - I could fit in back seat of my car. My quality of life and health increased massively. I see how others live - it makes no sense to me. Conspicuous consumption is a never ending treadmill. Get off it. Seems the more "stuff" other people have and 'want' - only makes them increasingly miserable and distracted. When I come home from the farmers markets now with sacks of food? Or when I hunt deer/boar, catch fresh fish out the Atlantic? THAT is when I truly feel "RICH". Not when the imaginary fiat, digital numbers in my bank account go up. I suggest everyone fish if they can. If not - learn how to hunt and garden. It's fun and liberating. Useful. I'm actually fishing on the beach right now. Still haven't caught anything though. Still seen bald eagles fish and sea turtles copulate (have sex) in groups today. Good enough.

[@SarahHarrhyDaly]

If we all (8+ billion) hunt wild animals won't they will go extinct even faster than they are already?

[@jjuniper274]

Not criticizing, playing Devil's Advocate. Natural fibers require land to plant the crops, and for the sheep to graze. If we went to wool and cotton, what's the tradeoff? In my lifetime, and the early days of Rubbermaid(TM) and Tupperware(TM), they touted their products as onetime buy for all households. They made the products for storage of foods you'd find at the farm, in your own garden or at the market, i.e., cheese container for bulk cheese at the deli or farm, bulk sugar or salt dispensors, drinking cups that would not break. As my parents told me, and I vaguely remember this in my own life, for decades milk was delivered to the house and placed in a glass jar in the icebox/fridge. What happened was industry swooping in and saying, hey Mr. Farmer, we can take your goods and package them to sell to a wider clientel. It started with butcher shops, and paper wrapping, but when big business swooped in, plastic became introduced along with Styrofoam. With the advent of deep chest freezers, more people could buy bulk and plastic is exceptionally cheaper and more durable than paper, pottery or metal containers.

[@discusab]

When reaching the age of 18 individuals are given, say, 10 plastic bottles or containers. They chose how they fill (what product) and use them and are responsible for their cleaning, security and upkeep. Conditional to this is that no single use packaging products exists. Unrealistic? Well, start with one bottle and product .. ? Shampoo for example? and work out from there. Just a thought::!

[@carly09et]

This is backwards, plastic is NOT the problem it is a solution, BUT this is a politicly and practical palatable solution.

[@AlanDavidDoane]

I believe any real toxic waste solution will cost money and will absolutely not be possible as a for-profit endeavor. But that's just because I have a rudimentary understanding of the laws of thermodynamics. Only once we realize we will ALL have to pay for what humans have done to this planet and not try to benefit from cleaning it up will it be possible to actually start doing it.

[@carolynhastie4857]

Mind blowing 🤯

[@rozalinapiano]

Government has to be giving financial incentives for designing new materials with no fossil fuel

[@Ascending4111]

Our bodies need to be grounded. Fleece is plastic and we cannot ground properly wearing plastic. Clean cotton, hemp and wool will allow grounding. Most glass containers are from recycled glass and is much cleaner than plastic. Buy products in glass and promote glass recyling.

[@BobQuigley]

IMO it's difficult for the human mind to grasp what 8 billion precious humans require every day of their estimated 30,000 days of life. Not to mention what adding 80 million net new humans annually requires in new infrastructure. By 2035 we will be 9 billion precious humans. Next to the green farming revolution the entire chemical industry including plastics are largely responsible for our current situation. Yet find article after article screaming we're losing population! It's a catastrophe!! Remarkably blissfully willfully unwilling to open their minds to the scope of our global shared downward spiral. IMO the answers are staring at us. Open borders. New institutions focused on pulling us together. Abandonment of national militarism replaced with international law enforcement. Recognize that we're not only related to each other but to the entire biosphere, source of all life. Thanks for great interview

[@guapochino140]

But then you need to factor in Sapolsky's comments on stress and decision making in humans from the previous episode.

[@c.oreilly1387]

So the invisible hand of the market will solve the problem it caused?

[@kirstinstrand6292]

Only world 🌎 policy makers will allow this planet to turn a corner. 😮

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

"We buy what we are told to buy". Goes hand in hand with the last guest.

[@narcissusecho7469]

We need to mandate all single use plastics and packaging are thermoplastic which can be granulated, melted and reused. Cellophane made from wood cellulose would be a good alternative to food packaging.

[@guapochino140]

There was a young person in New York a few years back who got some press for claiming her month's plastic waste could fit in a jam jar and she carried it around to show how great she was. The supply chain that got all the stuff to NYC was of course not included. This it how big city dwellers imagine you can change the world.

[@mr.makeit4037]

My hope is that gen z carries us thru what lies ahead. My kids just dont have that need for the accumulation of plastic goods like what baby boomers have and had. This is a promising sign that i have observed. They are introverted, but do lean more towards having experiences over things. Time will tell whether a lessening of petrochemical demand will transpire.

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

"My hope is that gen z carries us thru what lies ahead." I think their taxes are what pays my pension.

[@Orielzolrak]

Hi Nate. I like you see this article: The Permian Basin Is Depleting Faster Than We Thought 06/ 30/ 2023 of Goehring & Rozencwajg Associates Best for you

[@JMW-ci2pq]

Some plastic wastes can be used as things such as insulation. Plastics return to their crude state under the pressure forces of where they came from.

[@tomatao.]

I can't get behind the idea that physical limitations are more flexible than psychological limitations... We can change our minds but we can't change the how nature works. We are children of nature, not the other way around

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

Well I don't know exactly what she meant by that but I think most people are very resistant to changing their minds. Examples abound: There are still quite a few people who think recycling is a chore and prefer to chuck everything in the rubbish bin. And people will not give up driving their own private vehicle. That's why governments feel forced to create windmills and electric cars - with all their complex environmental problems - because people WILL NOT give up their daily commute and take less money to work nearer home; insisting that they couldn't possibly do such a thing - that's usually a mental block, not a physical one. Hell, they won't even give up washing their precious chariots; even though they're "dirty" (= not to my eyes) again within a week.

[@aliendroneservices6621]

19:41 "Most plastics are made from petrochemicals, meaning that fossil feedstocks are used in their production. *_However, only 4% of the world's fossil resources are used in plastics production."_* May 21, 2019

[@torsteinholen14]

4% here, 2%there, it adds up. But yeah....

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

But what would they do with that fraction if they didn't use it? That's a rhetorical question - they would have to pump it back down into an empty well and seal it up when full. They energy to do that would mean extracting even more oil. Just as much oil will be pumped out as long as we continue to fail to make renewables work reliably.

[@aliendroneservices6621]

@@user-yq2wk6yg8s Plastics are made from natural gas. It's not a special fraction with no other use. Wind and solar are infinitely-expensive, on a sustained basis. They cannot be "made to work".

[@danielbtwd]

How about the military?

[@TennesseeJed]

I have noticed that all the fruit and vegetables that I buy has a plastic layered sticker on it!

[@propellerscience]

Only the over priced vegetables have that. Don't buy those.

[@TennesseeJed]

We had returnable bottles for soft drinks when I was a kid. We would beg the neighborhood houses for them and go collect our cash!

[@AlanDavidDoane]

Stop buying them! There are alternatives.

[@AlanDavidDoane]

We still have them. Every month we haul five trash bags full of them to the redemption center and then they throw then into the landfill.

[@johnbanach3875]

@@AlanDavidDoane I think he may have been talking about glass, but that was like in the 50's and maybe early 60's.

[@graemetunbridge1738]

Glass is pretty recyclable.

[@graemetunbridge1738]

Tax polluters ( industry ) not the workers. ie provide cost incentives to shift industry practice.

[@icRegions]

Where does plastic production originate and end up as waste? It is not in a natural sphere, but the built-environment Technosphere. It requires management. When will that be considered? Many solutions are in the past, efficient ways of doing things abandoned. Degrow plastic.

[@chrisfrench8961]

Horrified to see plastic docks throughout “Cottage country” in Ontario Canada.

[@rdnzl401]

Let's stop repeating the myth that we consume a credit card's volume of plastic every week. The problem of microplastics is very real, but it would take something like 40,000 years for the microcopic traces in our food to add up to a credit card.

[@andywilliams7989]

Big business is like having a tree that only has one leaf.

[@SarahHarrhyDaly]

I would have liked more plastic science - what is it , how is it made, why it isn't recyclable - my local council seems to believe it is recyclable and collects mountains every week. Where it goes, nobody knows. I heard a plastic scientist simply say, when asked about what to do with the waste, "Burn it". If burnt as fossil fuel for energy is there any chance of CO2 + noxious fumes capture or is that a fantasy too ?

[@guapochino140]

To the majority of the world's population, plastic means progress, even luxury.

[@AlanDavidDoane]

Yes. And overdosing on heroin feels awesome. At least until you're dead.

[@guapochino140]

@@leonsappl To many people around the world plastic does also mean progress and the aspiration of being part of the first world. Where I live people are hooked on styrofoam for food containers. It's maddening. They have no idea some elite minority love the idea of paper grocery bags and compostable drinking straws.

[@solartime8983]

Excellent guest🌻 Lady Sutherland is so intelligent, well spoken & practical!🤩 The World needs this critical issue to our Health & Quality of Human Life to be Required 'listening' (with comprehension ) as a requirement to citizenship in every country🗽But, To get changed, it must be incentivised!! 💳💸Like your suggestion to personally replacing plastic water bottles with lifetime refillable aluminum + glass ... I've had my thermos for 35 years!!🤓

[@kestreljc1559]

I find your discussions very informative and thoughtful, which makes your belief in "climate change" all the more befuddling. As to plastics, it's a matter of utility; until another material is invented/discovered that has more utility than petroleum-based plastics, they will continue to be used. Plastic is like other petroleum distillates; cheap and abundant. Maybe the solution will be forced on us with decreasing supply of petroleum.

[@notafantbh]

???

[@anewagora]

A growing population of people are replacing plastics with other materials and lifestyle changes because of the devastating damage to human health and because they're developing fully cyclical lifestyles built into nature again. They don't want to drownd in a fake junk world swarmed with trash and poor quality products that can't be repaired, with no local production of materials and basic resources. Being consumed by faceless massive corporations and govts controlling everything with no local community and real human tribe is the consequence of accepting convenience. And we want to do something that actually empowers us.

[@cfitzstrum]

So you’re saying ‘climate change’ isn’t real?

[@propellerscience]

Now would be a good time to watch Nate's Great Simplification video.

[@electrosyzygy]

Belief has nothing to do with it. He understands it. Perhaps the source of your befuddlement is cognitive dissonance?

[@macgp44]

Ya gotta look on the bright side: all that plastic will occupy the place of the decreasing volume of insects, amirite? Problem solved.

[@AlanDavidDoane]

Every returnable plastic bottle should be returned by law and the buyer of that bottle should have to pay an ecologically realistic fee to return it. Paying people to do the right thing hasn't worked, so we need to punish them for doing the wrong thing, which is buying the plastic bottles in the first place.

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

"we need to punish them for doing the wrong thing" How will that work in a democracy?

[@AlanDavidDoane]

@@user-yq2wk6yg8s "Every returnable plastic bottle should be returned by law and the buyer of that bottle should have to pay an ecologically realistic fee to return it." Your reading comprehension needs work.

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

@@AlanDavidDoane Laws have to be enforced to be of any use. We already have tons of laws here in UK which are ineffective because we cannot find the money to pay for the recruitment of people to enforce them. Perhaps it might get easier as AI immediately gets the name and address of every person who dares to buy a returnable plastic bottle by some means such as facial recognition. Would seem a bit like an Orwellian nightmare though.

[@AlanDavidDoane]

@@user-yq2wk6yg8s The future is going to be a nightmare for virtually every living human by the end of this century, and AI won't even exist by then because we won't have access to the energy needed to make it work.

[@KeoneStevans]

unfortunately plastics are part of the end result of the refinement process of crude oil, which include gasoline (something i learned from this channel!) you can’t get one without getting the others, it’s baked into the cake so to speak.

[@TroyH.]

I think a plastic tax would be much more effective than a carbon tax

[@jjuniper274]

There is, it's on recycled, in the form of higher price for repro as opposed to prime, but there you bump into the medical industry. You cannot use wide spec or repro for materials that have gone through biocompatibilty testing. Verboten. It has to be nuanced. I don't want recycled plastic to be used in my IV catheter, know what I mean? It's too impure.

[@liamhickey359]

People shouldn't be allowed to throw their waste away. They should be forced to hoard it somewhere inconvenient like inside their houses. Then they might start questioning their consumption habits, they might even start asking questions about the corporations who ultimately produce it.

[@liamhickey359]

They would be asking questions within a month.

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

@@liamhickey359 There'd be a lot of dustmen on the dole. But not for long. Edit: dustmen = waste collection operative. I think.

[@antonyjh1234]

Haaa ha hang on we have a free market is why private companies can produce goods based purely off whether another person will buy it, that's capitalism, if those companies receive enough money and want to bypass trickle down economics and go straight to the source, them not having to pay tax on that sounds fair. "Yeah mate, if you want to pick through the skip for the iron filings, be my guest" Are people really going to find greater success for their waste at work than what is already in place? Couldn't imagine somebody going into work saying we have to recycle more.

[@Dampflanze]

may i suggest to shut off 6 light sources while there is a window that gives me the impressions it is in the middle of the day. Remember that sugar water commercial: image is nothing thirst is everything obey your thirst / your programming and downfall

[@AlanDavidDoane]

But we gotta look good for the KZbin! 🙄

[@Dampflanze]

​@@AlanDavidDoane Are you saying there are another 2-3 light sources in front ?

[@user-yq2wk6yg8s]

Yes, still more she can do on the decluttering.

[@propellerscience]

I'm not feeling simplification here. I'm feeling hopium from an apocaloptimist.

[@pacificatoris9307]

With all due with respect, the math doesn't seem to add up, nor EROI. Plastics is just another name for hydrocarbons, with some additional steps.

[@snorttroll4379]

Let the market decide.

[@AlanDavidDoane]

It decided the fate of the planet 300 years ago, and here we are.

[@carly09et]

Coal is 'plastic' - thats a fact - the only carbon sink is plastic.

[@myopianpebbles7418]

Playing devils advocate though, plastic packaging on food does keep it fresh longer.

[@cs3818919]

While she does a good job of laying out the problem she like many of the guests has no realistic or feasible solution.

[@jmm8291]

This chat makes me think “we are doomed” I know you don’t think so from your guests but I love your guests but I think we are headed for something terrible. These denial guests are challenging

[@seankelly8817]

Tax fossil fuels and animal agriculture

[@guapochino140]

"Creative" as a category is a self-invented term to describe people who make nothing of long-term value. They would have no jobs in a circular or sustainable economy.

[@AlanDavidDoane]

Circular economies are a myth. Sorry, but the laws of thermodynamics demand only a spiraling economy and inevitably decays and dies, like every dissipative structure.

[@TheUAoB]

​@@AlanDavidDoaneEntropy can be offset by the application of energy, which is of course what we're doing with Fossil Fuels right now to keep all the plates spinning. The Earth isn't a closed system, but it does have a budget. As long as the economy operates within the available input energy budget it could be sustainable, but growth isn't an option. The problem is; we grew the economy to many times that, thanks to the one time ff bonanza, and then kept growing even beyond that. So from here on out I'd judge you to be correct.

[@guapochino140]

@@AlanDavidDoane I agree. Let's assume something sustainable to the degree that it could last more than a few hundred years with the aim of being regenerative to some degree. My point is that these people would not exist in such a world and they had better learn to pull up their sleeves and dig potatoes instead of making 6 figure salaries thinking up new ways to sell products for multinationals because that it was 90% of them do.