Signal known to have failed. SPAD.

SPAD. Passing signal at danger.

[@WilliamSmith-mx6ze]

"Attention. This train is about to move slowly forwards and then stop suddenly. Please use any seats available or, if standing, hold on tight. Following this routine safety procedure, we will continue moving at reduced speed."

[@AdderFTW888]

i mean, it was spot on with what happened XD

[@peterc.1618]

I can't hear that in the video.

[@steeviebops]

@@peterc.1618 1:46 onwards, it's very low volume.

[@ShadowriverUB]

Because most rail signal systems have extra safety triggering emergency breaks (you can see box triggering it need the rail on left), they can't disable it (since signal is broken) and they need to go thru it to continue and trigger it and then unlock breaks, so they need to warn passengers about it.

[@ssingfo]

Yeh but most other systems have a way to prevent the emergeny brake application from happening when passing a stop signal (aka danger) that the driver is authorized to pass. So it is quite interesting to see that the london underground doesn't have an override at all and will just go through with the emergency brake application.

[@zombard1966]

Just beautiful to see the rules being applied and the safety systems kicking in. Passengers may complain about the inconvenience but I'd rather this than... well, all safety rules are written in blood...

[@johnspurgeon9083]

Yes, only yesterday I saw a cab ride involving an authorised SPAD (not the purpose of the video), and witnessed one perfectly done on the IOW Steam Rly. It is so comforting that such rules are kept to the letter even if seemingly pedantic when the route looks clear ahead.

[@sfb1964]

Always interesting to see the procedures that are followed, right down to the special passenger announcement. Good to see a safe system in action.

[@kristinajendesen7111]

Bit of a pain not having an override button in the cab like we do on the mainline so the brakes don't apply. Just have to remember to use it though...like I forgot one day 😳

[@markdavies5662]

Same here. Just don't tell anyone😁

[@deathbyteacup]

I imagine it is because on the underground, the SPAD protection is physically induced by the trip cock and not something that you can override digitally?

[@allangibson8494]

The Underground has a nasty crash history of trains passing signals at danger…

[@thomashenden71]

There should of course be a "Don ‘t push this button!" sign… 😂

[@LegendLength]

@@allangibson8494 It still seems a bit too formal for something that is commonplace. They need to shorten the exchange, basically invent a better protocol it's not hard.

[@davidchilds9590]

Excellent radio discipline - you make most aviators sound very lax!

[@MrSimpleone]

That’s because most aviators don’t get examined on their radio procedure like railway personnel.

[@caitthenerd7470]

@@MrSimpleone They do in this country. Ever heard of the Flight Radio-Telephony Operator's Licence?

[@alcatel4539]

Nice to see that Procede on Sight Authority is still a thing on London Underground. I assume it is the tripcock system that stops the train after the authority is given.

[@piccadillyline9765]

Yes then time delay for 3 mins in slow speed.

[@suchcone]

I heard this announcement once! And now I know what happened!

[@TheTraindriver85]

Once again I’ll reiterate, there are different categories for SPADS, it is technically a SPAD, though here it’s called Applying the Rule at a signal remaining at danger. He has passed a signal at danger.

[@mikekirwan5326]

It’s a SPAR, not a SPAD

[@abloogywoogywoo]

@@mikekirwan5326 Or technically, SPAD with authority. SPAR is when the signal suddenly changes to red in front of the driver, due to emergency or signal failure, and it's impossible to stop in time.

[@markdavies5662]

​@@abloogywoogywoo category B spad

[@mikekirwan5326]

@@markdavies5662 It’s not a category B SPAD

[@mikekirwan5326]

@@abloogywoogywoo It can’t be a SPAD with authority, because a SPAD by its nature is passing a danger signal without authority. There are 4 categories of SPAD, none of which include passing a signal at danger with authority.

[@CitytransportInfoplus]

Interesting to note the very precise wording which includes both the train and signal numbers and although not said I would expect the conversation to be recorded too.

[@kay1229]

It's great to see how TfL does this from the other side of the world, Somehow this came onto my recommended but in NYCT we have a different system and we are Barred from going through any Red, Point blank Period. If there's a Signal Malfunction, You have to wait for somebody to come and repair it. If you go through, It'll just activate the Emergency Breaks so not only do those have to be reset, Sometimes you even face Disciplinary. I've always appreciated differences like that from countries

[@RaceBanner_]

“TFL reminds all passengers & viewers who are seeking love & companionship to refrain from discussing ‘SPADS’ whilst engaging in courtship activities, for the sanity of your partner. Cheers.”

[@IstasPumaNevada]

"Why do we have to do all this pointless, tedious, time-consuming rigmarole?" Because of about twenty different deadly accidents that cost hundreds of lives since these measures weren't in place.

[@chrisbowser]

Experienced this once of twice on the met line. It is reassuring to know the train does what it’s told, the trip cocks fire and after a reset you proceed slowly

[@RODALCO2007]

Great to see correct radio procedures and safety systems in operation.

[@ShadowriverUB]

In Poland rail signals have emergency substitution signal state, that can manually triggered from traffic control center in case automatic systems fail and overriding safty systems so it does not trigger breaks, exactly for this kind of situations. ofcorse train still need to go in reduced speed until valid green signal

[@piccadillyline9765]

This system forces you in to a slow speed for a set time. The trains are manually driven nothing like ETMS.

[@irishsixtysixfanGbrf66739]

In Ireland they hold the train behind in the block signal section at danger as the track section is occupied by your train if the signal has failed and you have contacted the signalling centre controller they usually have you wait a minute or two before giving authorisation to proceed as this gives the train ahead time to get away from the platform and out of the block section that you need to proceed into once the train ahead has cleared the signalling centre will tell you the next block section is clear and you have authoriy to proceed passed the signal at danger at cautionary speed of this 20mph until station stop and normal line speed on departure running under signals to destination

[@Thomas1980]

H__E__L__L__O___Super fantastic Video! Thumbs Up!

[@ruditrollip4834]

Awesome this is how things supposed to be happening

[@thomashenden71]

This is not Boeing, you know… 😄

[@piccadillyline9765]

@@thomashenden71 www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ltmuseum.co.uk%2Fcollections%2Fcollections-online%2Fposters%2Fitem%2F2003-9663&psig=AOvVaw0qcXuXTJx5r4_kzf1ir2jn&ust=1717197606468000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCLCx8tvBtoYDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAG

[@ChesterWolf]

Oh you can actually see the emergency brake trip lever the Market Frankford line in Philadelphia has those as well

[@MuckyD.]

lol all the people telling the driver he is wrong.

[@piccadillyline9765]

I know its gave me a laugh. My job and a rule book and terminology not used on my railway.

[@darth_yoda]

It is so sad to think about the state of the British rail system now a days given how pieenerring it was back in the days and now it's one of the most mistreated and underfunded system in europa.

[@johnlandymore7308]

10 out of 10 drive

[@S1deep160]

I see this has happened a month ago as well.What is the maximum speed you go when signal fails?

[@piccadillyline9765]

As per rule book a speed you can stop at any obstruction. Around 5 mph.

[@LeeSmith-cf1vo]

It looked like the train was going faster after passing the signal but before the trip cock activated, compared to after the activation. Does the activation force the train into a limited speed? If yes, what then clears that? (or did I just imagine the initial higher speed?)

[@john1703]

I thought the trip cock had to be manually re-set on the line side, before the train could move.

[@abloogywoogywoo]

I thought the trip cock automatically shuts down the engine.

[@Boxersteavee]

No, they are just limited to "a speed that can stop at any danger", around 5mph (by the rule book). The driver knew they were going to hit the trip cock and probably just wanted to get there and get it over with.

[@Boxersteavee]

​@@abloogywoogywooit does not, it just forces the brakes to turn on, and activates an alarm.

[@piccadillyline9765]

@@Boxersteavee if you do it to slow you have a chance of the trip arm resting on the train stop so you can not reset. Power off get down on track cut out the TCIS back on train get power turned on move train get power off reset TCIS back on train get power on again so as you see we give it a little bit of speed when doing this.

[@russiandrivers9986]

Is there no train stop override on underground trains?

[@Boxersteavee]

It's mechanical, where the track has a bit that sticks up when the signal shows danger, and physically moves the airbrake valve to apply the brakes. This means after passing it you have to then undo it.

[@piccadillyline9765]

No

[@JohnHawkins-nw4wi]

Must be very annoying when this happens!

[@piccadillyline9765]

Yes and no. Distrupton to the customers but a chance to put the rule book into practice.

[@abloogywoogywoo]

Better safe than sorry!

[@DanCojocaru2000]

How interesting that there isn't an override for the emergency brake!

[@theVtuberCh]

I think that is the point. To make overriding the emergency break a difficult thing.

[@S1deep160]

are there any updates on the new stock coming for test?

[@piccadillyline9765]

We have been told the first one should be with us in August.

[@S1deep160]

@piccadillyline9765 Nice.Is it the TOP that tests it or io?

[@piccadillyline9765]

@@S1deep160 TTO's (Test Train Operators) we will not get out hands on it till the back end of 2025. But will try!

[@Sunset4Semaphores]

Why are there 4 rails? Are there two different track guages in use that could not use 3 rails?

[@piccadillyline9765]

4 rails, Electric train. Outer + rail then running rail then -rail then running rail.

[@dopiaza2006]

Wouldn't it be lovely with this new layout youtube have forced on us, if we could scroll the comments while keeping the video on the screen. If only the technology existed to allow this to happen....

[@ianbower7756]

You can, well I can. As I write this the video is playing.

[@dopiaza2006]

@@ianbower7756 But can you scroll down the comments without losing the video?

[@TheRedFloofball_Foxy]

yeah

[@julianguffogg]

Yes on ipad

[@ianbower7756]

@@dopiaza2006 Yes.

[@bgbstrm2352]

At the Centre can't they see every train? So why do you have to go at a low speed?

[@piccadillyline9765]

the 5 basic reasons for a signal remaining at danger

[@ZugnachPankow]

You cant tell me that there is no button that let the train ignore the emergency breaking

[@piccadillyline9765]

No button thats the way reacts

[@dogmannz]

ffs they radio traffic is pretty much unintelligible. That can't be very safe if you can't understand 80% of what's being said.

[@lewisthomas7099]

Why was it not mentioned that the previous signal was also possibly faulty and did not display a caution aspect?

[@straightpipediesel]

Because it can't. LU is 2 aspect signaling.

[@piccadillyline9765]

It can not display caution. The previous signal is telling me the section is clear to signal WR36.

[@lewisthomas7099]

@@piccadillyline9765 Oh? So theres no caution aspects on the line? Just green > red?

[@piccadillyline9765]

@@lewisthomas7099 As has been said we use 2 aspect signaling red/green for autos and semi-autos. We have repeaters yellow and green, fog repeaters normally just over a trains length from the signal it is repeating shunt signals disc or fibre optic and draw up signals 3 aspect red yellow and green. These are to protect a compromised overlap on a converging junction normaly at platforms or on the approach where a train from another line can be signaled in front of you or reverse from your line to another.

[@kansascityshuffle8526]

That can be all done by radio and not written permission. Interesting

[@piccadillyline9765]

Yes. Its done on what we call secure radio. Its like talking to someone on a mobile phone. No one else can hear the call. I instinated the call so the only person who can answer is the signaller. Then radio protocol to identify the person I am speaking to.

[@kansascityshuffle8526]

@@piccadillyline9765 we kinda have the same communication system but in my realm to go past a bad light it would be written instructions transmitted by radio. I like the less steps part.

[@George-jz9fk]

Who heard that on board announcement 👇

[@piccadillyline9765]

DVA

[@thomashenden71]

Would it be SPAF, then? Signal passing at fail? 🙂

[@piccadillyline9765]

No our rule book it is a SPAD. Just not Cat A1

[@tonyhowell9203]

obey the rule

[@cloverisfan818]

We getting demoted to TD with this one (if you know the reference you know)

[@keitheglon]

Failed to sound the horn when passing at Danger. Fingers rapped there!

[@piccadillyline9765]

2m2sec. Dont have to sound whistle while passing signal. Just before movement to pass then reset again before movement then every 60 seconds.

[@keitheglon]

They should if they follow the rule book correctly, I was a signalman many tears ago

[@piccadillyline9765]

@@keitheglon sorry mate but on what railway NR or LUL?

[@aBigCountry]

That rule disappeared years ago. No requirement to sound the horn any more.

[@Sam_Green____4114]

It's not a SPAD though ! A SPAD is when the train passes the signal at danger without authority from the controlling signalling person !

[@TheTraindriver85]

I’m a driver, it is a SPAD( Signal Passed At Danger) it’s not the same category, in this case, as equipment failure, than a driver failing to stop at it, weather not pending.

[@Sam_Green____4114]

@@TheTraindriver85 It hasn't been passed at danger though has it ? The signal has been cleared verbally by the person controlling it ! A SPAD is done in error !

[@htmlland]

I believe a red signal is known as "Danger" , so yes it is passing a Danger signal

[@Cyborgdelta1]

@@Sam_Green____4114 If it is a fault or not it is still indicating danger the fact the signal is not working is the danger

[@airspeed_alive]

The signal is red, red equals danger 😂 he passed the signal at danger, spad, idk how it can be any simpler

[@123penfold]

A SPAD is an unauthorised passing of a signal at danger . This is an authorised passing of a signal at danger. Note the train operator having to repeat back everything said to him. This will be recorded at the signalling Centre in the event of any incident if one did happen.

[@piccadillyline9765]

This is LUL not NR. Since the press got the acronym after SN109. All radio and phone calls are recorded. Show me where it states "A SPAD is an unauthorised passing of a signal at danger" in my rule book.

[@ChannelReuploads9451]

Spad is a Spad mate, Unauthorized, or Authorized. (Signal)(Passed)(At)(Danger). Under ordinary rules, Red means stop, unless Authorized by controlling Signaler. Even on Main line, Red means stop, UNLESS Authorized movement is given, by Signaler. However a SPAD without authorization, can, and DOES mean a lot of questions and paperwork. Spads are recorded on the trains Black box which are downloaded on a REGULAR basis.

[@kevingraham2733]

Good video but this is not a SPAD

[@simonneep8413]

Was the signal not at danger when passed?

[@flightsimmer9809]

Yes it is classed as a SPAD on LUL there are 4 categorys of SPAD this would be classed as a Technical SPAD

[@markdavies5662]

Excellent voice comms. Can you override the tripstop before passing the signal at danger?

[@tcpnetworks]

I would have thought that disabling a trip-stop would be a horrible idea. It's a better plan to ensure ANY SPAD involves a trip, and the trip is reported up. Disabling a safety system always ends up biting you in the arse somewhere else. Allowing the trip, and dealing with the SPAD process is much safer and idiot proof.

[@markdavies5662]

​​@@tcpnetworks ​I agree to some extent. Safety is paramount. Out on the main line, we are authorised to temporary isolate the TPWS and ATP (in my case) to pass a defective signal at danger where the Rule Book states. All safety systems are immediately reinstated thereafter as per rule book instructions. My query to the poster was asking if he had the same 'temp isolation' capabilities on Underground rolling stock as on 'main line' traction units.

[@piccadillyline9765]

@@markdavies5662 We can cut the trip out and select slow speed but for the process of doing this it takes longer . Juice off cut it out juice back on pass signal juice off reinstate the tcis reset the trip (have to elect slow speed or no movement for 3 mins) then 3 to 5 mph for two consecutive stop signals showing a proceed aspect with associated train stop. Pass trip reset its quicker. All my isolations for the trip are outside. No comfort of staying in the cab till the new stock.

[@markdavies5662]

@piccadillyline9765 thanks mate 👍