War Within Melee Dps RANKED - Best Single Target & AoE, Best Hero Talents, Best Overall

[@SignsOfKelani]

Become a KZbin member here - kzbin.info/door/sxidPdmPXDlsS3rn7arJsAjoin Big crafting changes in The War Within - kzbin.info/www/bejne/m36Qln-EnLWSrs0 EVERYTHING coming in the war within prepatch - kzbin.info/www/bejne/il7IY6dth72YiNk Most important things to do before war within releases - kzbin.info/www/bejne/fH3alpqLp7Kbhdk War Within Prepatch Event preview - kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZKuaKmdbquAbac

[@bertjones3010]

can one assume that "S" means superior? I couldn't find where you actually discussed you ranking scale and it doesn't help when you time stamp it to cater to each class - another words skipping classes I don't play.

[@BlaisingSoul]

Taliesin and Evi made reference to you on their vid on melee for TWW this week 😊

[@DemonicInfinity]

"Playing around a static aoe can be pretty annoying" *Laughs in DK*

[@Kurnhelios]

Huffing hopium that they'll add a talent where death and decay follows you

[@MostlyFish21]

That's why I don't play DK. That, and they're way too slow for my liking. I don't like always overcapping on runic power but that's on me

[@-TyTy]

@@MostlyFish21 With the hero talent, ROTA, you're laughing in being faster

[@ninjaAMN]

Here's the breakdown of the tier list from the video: S Tier - Ret Paladin > Windwalker Monk A Tier - Unholy DK > Havoc DH > Survival Hunter > Frost DK > Fury Warrior B Tier - Feral Druid > Outlaw Rogue > Arms Warrior > Enhancement Shaman C Tier - Assassination Rogue > Subtlety Rogue

[@TheMiddleAgedKidVideos]

Why is it creators never like passive or background effects? Most specs have enough active abilities to juggle as it is.

[@pglove9554]

It's a non point. Generally opinion. Game has changed fk all since launch when you really think about it..

[@DemonicInfinity]

Because they are often just a number boost, so nothing that is new for a spec. Some people like that, but some people want the spec gameplay to actually change depending on your choice especially in talent and hero talent treee.

[@Soulessdeeds]

I would rather see more passives than see blizzard add more buttons. We aren't 2014 PvP gods with 80 macros and keybinds.

[@danielsmith2483]

​@@pglove9554bro never played vanilla wow lol

[@Daisudori]

A good design will allow u to take passives or actives and have similar output. Choose your difficulty. Ele Shaman tree kinda had this

[@TadSoft]

Rogue here crying for help.

[@NinjaKhaos74]

as a sub rogue i feel like i do 10x the work of say bm hunter but the same or less damage,shit is annoying

[@mladengochev6918]

atleast u are not a shaman :D

[@kunjunction1]

rogues are fine he doesnt know half the rotations since the updates. missing huge prio on the video XD thats why i take what he posts LATE with a grain of salt.

[@abnknyte]

Rogues will get overtuned like they always do. Don't worry!

[@leonardceres9061]

crying is useless the other five Rogues playing the game won’t be able to hear you…

[@bustrbsly82]

you might want to take a 2nd look at havoc. their talents haven't changed but losing their tier set combined with the hero talents has completely changed the class. it plays very differently now.

[@kunjunction1]

if you watch the video he doesnt even know the basic rotations or prio for specs. this video was rushed just to push shit out the door.

[@clauslarsen8971]

I fee like he just rated it on the fact that he generally likes DH in every expansion

[@monsterdragondeluxe]

This guy useally just reads wowhead patchnotes.. I guess this has 0 research and 0 effort for it. I honestly think he is not playing the beta that much.

[@Drew71707]

insultingly bad take on havoc yeah, oh I like how they play and they got no changes except hero talents gut the playstyles

[@ShadowMk3]

Linked your video in the forum rogue feedback thread, we are desperate for eyes to be on the issues we are facing, so I appreciate the video even more, and I hope it will bring more attention to it

[@Zerstoror]

Wish you put chapters in

[@Skrittlez]

Yesss

[@TopicxWoW]

Mained Rogue all of DF, I am re-rolling. Its the worst state the class has been in in all of M+ it’s so punishing if you mess up one RTB or accidentally drop stealth and lose buffs, if you die it’s terrible for the next 2 minutes. It suffers from RP and flying cause you have to break stealth, it has no utility at all, can’t dispel, heal, hard CC, Rez. It’s just terrible RN.

[@FlunkyKong]

There are now chapters

[@Skrittlez]

Wow nice they listened lol

[@zeraora807]

I love the thumbnail "Why are you yelling!? Lol

[@buddyjarjoura5166]

Great video. Exactly the kind of overview I was looking for! Hope ranged/caster is up next!

[@LordGodfrey]

So glad I main a DK, but I’m also excited MoP Remix let me get a ton of alts leveled!

[@OkayJay444]

Love the fantasy of Fatebound Outlaw. But like you said, not much to get excited about visually. I feel like it could be one of the coolest.

[@WolfsOcean]

Good thing im switching to Holy Pally from Ret. The fact Ret is getting so much highlighting in all WW has my Nerf Senses tingling

[@keithnowicki8241]

people will cry and they will get nerfed!

[@FritzSchober]

Less buttons is good, not bad!

[@Manylimes]

Completely agree

[@AmaSeeker]

Thank you~😄

[@yeye1600]

Putting Havoc with it's huge problems currently in A tier is crazy to me. One hero talent tree does 1/3 of the other, adds nothing visually even though that's supposedly a big part of it. The other (aldrachi reaver) just adds more buffs/ debuffs and even soul fragment micro management to a already insanely min-max micromanage spec. It's way too much. Feels like both trees were designed to go with vengeance and fuck havoc as always.

[@user-tw1dt4no7f]

90% of everyones issue with the hero talents for DH is visuals. it still plays and does as much if not more than most classes. The only issue i see with the hero talents is havoc and souls.

[@yeye1600]

@@user-tw1dt4no7f my main issue was concerning the design of the hero talents and the philosophy behind their design. To me it shows that they either don't care enough or actively ignore feedback about havoc, seeing as they added even more micromanagement

[@matthewfincham243]

Love your vids mate

[@nawdog187]

I think your pretty accurate on this list considering I play em all lol, nice work , we appreciate very much for all you do .!!!!!

[@lukasgaming82]

Hey Kelani!

[@gregoryshinn9805]

Thanks for the video

[@spamstabber]

Making ret even better is pretty wild

[@user-zr2el2uv7v]

Is this a tier list for m+ or overall because I saw u put ret p in S but on the logs from raid they are doing just ok

[@Baloshz]

thx for making this great video

[@Ignan-Randel]

Stuck between elemental, survival and windwalker, my 3 mains.

[@Uncle19]

With the changes to alts, I feel like my main isn’t massively important. Which is a good thing.

[@Metaphix]

hopefully they change the colossus arms warrior ability to not lock you in place, maybe just lower movement speed by like 70%

[@mmonkeybone]

feral has always been my comfy class even when its bad its the slower comfy version of a rouge i do wish it had more going for it but i always keep coming back.

[@wooptidoo3525]

I'm considering returning for this expansion launch but i am worried about balance. Have they done anything to nerf augmentation and its toxic meta? I'm not gonna bother if I feel like i'm an idiot for not playing around that spec.

[@kalamari8243]

as someone who has every spec besides healers on both sides (alliance and horde), I am extremely excited for hero talents. now I can mix up my gamestyles and being (a little bit) more "unique" with each char and not having e.g. 2 completely identical WW monks on each side!

[@InfestationPony]

God I wish Rider of the Apocalypse can be as good as it sounds, so far all I'm seeing are randomness slapped upon randomness, looks like Sanlayn for me. Plus those extra haste buff can be quite useful at the start of this expansion.

[@Davew5183]

Glad I can continue playing my main (Paladin)2005-now and still going

[@Jagr00nage]

I've mained WW since Legion and that doesn't look like it's changing at all but I'm super excited to play mountain thane because it just looks cool.

[@attinger117]

WW has had massive changes to the talent tree…. And they have two distinct hero talent playstyles.

[@Jagr00nage]

@@attinger117 Yea finally its gotten a bit stale but still a fun spec. Excited to try out different variations.

[@Lrn2hmp]

What is that damage text?

[@caemalin]

Time markers needed in your vids man 🙌

[@Soldruid]

There are time stamps

[@caemalin]

Not when I wrote this comment, thanks though.

[@Mickemera]

Holy Shit, Ret Paladin on top? Cant wait for a patch that tune that to about middle or lower just before release.

[@Defocus_]

put survival at S tier, looks about right after that

[@KuhntaSmash]

Yeah, after his description of his understanding of Pack Leader, it was obvious he didn't understand the new survival mechanics.

[@nerdrooted]

I've been mulling over a change from BM hunter for TWW, and my two choices I'd arrived at were either Ret Paladin or WW Monk 😂 WW Monk looks like (atm anyway) like it'll do more damage, but Ret does have more defensives, and will likely be a better pick for progression raiding due to that. I'm waiting for pre-patch to see how the changes play out for my actual live characters, even if we won't have access to hero talents just yet.

[@guilleherreros3518]

Who cares about damage are you a profesional player?

[@nerdrooted]

@@guilleherreros3518 I'm a Cutting Edge mythic raider who would like to guarantee their raid spot as much as possible, so yes, damage matters.

[@jamessun6207]

Rogues are in a sad spot

[@RNvidcast]

They are just so ridiculously complicated to play with so many finishers and cooldowns to manage.

[@magdabrownis265]

@@RNvidcast nah they’re not bad

[@user-il3wd2oz2s]

Good

[@richiepipes8960]

​@@magdabrownis265yea they are. Zero reason to play one over monk, pally, fury warr, or surv hunter.

[@metalmach1ne748]

Assa feels good and has strongest st

[@avstzn]

every hero talent tree should provide visual changes to some degree, it’s ridiculous that some specs like voidweaver shadow priest get so much stuff meanwhile fate bound rogues get to flip a coin ….

[@xanscobe]

As warrior main for years. This was the not a good introduction for casuals - yes they retuned rage and the waiting for auto attacks aka smoother gameplay but i rather had worded that just as "smoother gameplay" or similar. In my opinion the big change was that cleave replaces Whirlwind! This and the changes to talents + cleave cooldown + rage costs massively alters the aoe / cleave rotation esp with sweeping strikes on top. this feels way different than in DF: esp with -1 button (WW) and Storm of Swords redesign and removal of Hurricane - in the old AoE giga combo.

[@xanscobe]

For all 3 hero talents and fury I can agree and the ratings and input you gave. maybe mentioning removal of Annihilator+Slam+Storm of Swords build for fury. and sadly warrior is still lacking 1 real utility Button for M+.

[@boxicool]

so on arms there will be now shity whirlwind and cleave is in basic or talent choice? i hvnt played for long time

[@xanscobe]

@@boxicool whelp read the talents. Cleave replaces ww

[@dualSpec1]

I was thinking about ret our ww monk was hard to pick but when playing delves on beta it was allot easier wirh a ret. And since delves will be important ret to go and ww monk for alt for the first season

[@zuralani1]

Havoc in A tier? Most DHs that have played it hate aldrachi reaver's playstyle immensly. Because of the difference in damage profiles of the two hero trees, it is unlikely fel-scarred will ever be tuned to compete with aldrachi in raid without talent design changes.

[@Avo7977]

How are they in PvP, though

[@alexvarai424]

@@Avo7977 nobody cares or plays pvp in wow anymore lol

[@richiepipes8960]

Dude idk how he gave Havoc an A....its awful to play rn.

[@pawned4617]

@@Avo7977 Even in PvP, fel-scarred is garbage, aldrachi reaver out performs in Raid, M+ and PvP. DH really needs some major reworking before live

[@Primal_Echo]

​@@alexvarai424I almost exclusively play PvP...

[@povved161]

SV is my Main alt for years. Might as well make him to my Main in TWW 😍

[@Wolfemother3441]

DK POWER!

[@leaflotus6726]

Survival hero choice is AOE/wildfire? Sentinal. Singletarget/mongoose? Pack leader. Pack leader is really cool and its singlw target is insane on single target (and chakrams are back) :D

[@Denstoremonkey]

POG

[@DeezyDuo7]

Ret pally feels sooooo gooood 🤤🤤

[@Arkael1110]

I'm a bit confused about the death knight section. You said nothing but good things about frost death knight ended by saying it's some of the best hero talents in the game and then placed it in the middle of a tier......

[@Cyl444444]

The current unholy is was more simple than it's past versions thankfully . No where as simple as frost you just press obliterate and frost strike 90% of the time ; but once you understand the opening rotation and how your talents play off of it , it becomes very satisfying to play both in dungeons and raiding . Few different builds as well to tinker with compared to some specs really only having a single cookie cutter build .

[@fishtacos007]

I main shaman but haven't played since SL. IDK what to play

[@fishraposo7192]

This video got me to become a member, can't wait for the tier list of the other roles!

[@Jo-Jo8vs]

If Blood DK becomes the new meta tank in m+, I would rate DH also as S-Tier, just for the dmg buff.

[@thekajunpredator]

As a huge enhancement fan. I'm glad we aren't using ice strike/eleblast/frost shock/primordial wave😁

[@Tylas100]

Nice unholy is save 😂😘

[@Daisudori]

Can someone recommend me some low APM specs for War Within? Still Destro and MM for that?

[@bobstoner415]

Sounds about right. Both are very fun to play because they are simple but powerful so you can focus more on the game. I recommend both.

[@BeastMastery]

Havoc, Fury and all rogue specs. Trust me. Don't trust me!

[@rick5787]

Dev evoker is the lowest APM in the game. But its because you have 'charged' abilities.

[@Daisudori]

@@BeastMastery Assa used to be the low APM melee. But its not very enjoyable spec. Same for Arms war, altho imo thats abit better to play, I keep using it for alt. Am, bored on hunter so will try the Warlock and Evoker out I guess.

[@sleeper789]

Devastation Evoker is the lowest APM in the game at around 35 in single target. Not surprising since it revolves around a 3 second channel ability. It's still really fun and I mained it for most of DF. All three Warlock specs and MM are around 45-50.

[@pmdinaz]

Looks like I'll stick with Arms on my warrior (never liked fury) and Assassination on my rogue. I'm not chasing dps for frustration.

[@AStreakingHoBo]

For shamans this needs to be updated

[@littlebill872]

is this tier list just melee classes ranked on doing normal/heroic dungeons? because ret ain't definitely S rank. spec got neutered and brought down a few notches.

[@lovelylych7643]

Now please do ranged classes :)

[@mikebroessler6]

Please pick what you like dont go by these. BEST OVERALL is what you make it. All dps healers and tanks are viable even at the highest end. PLEASEEEEEEE pick what you find the most fun

[@navistormrage5057]

Is there rdps t list

[@afau1non]

unholy and probably frost aswell have the same problem pallys had before rework forced to play in consecration, bad game design if you want the game to be dynamic and very rng in pugs

[@Ak3R0]

Looks like that owl poops on enemies from above...

[@thatonedudea]

What does blizzard have against assassination rogues?!

[@Parawietje]

They hate assa im sure.

[@joshuagarner1654]

Ret paladin, always ret paladin

[@ConeyIslandKing]

ranged version?

[@ShadowsOfThePast]

Judging by this video it seems that there are many specs that suffer from the excessive amounts of procs/buffs/short CD's that you need to track to be optimal.. I think they should make those specs a bit more simple.. NOT braindead but slightly less stuff so that you don't need to mash the keyboard like your life depends on it.

[@prismoo9769]

Rogue here when you said mash your keyboard i feel that

[@kevinwilson9589]

Why the constant changes to specs? It's almost like Bliz dosen't want a person to learn how to play their character well, because if you put in the time to learn, it gets changed.

[@Thagias]

Enhancement might be removed or rebranded to tank spec at this point...

[@Miavydrina]

Been playing Unholy DK for 16 years. LET'S FUCKIN GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[@T.R.75]

why dont i feel like a Hero with the majority of these Hero Talents? good vid though, good info.

[@prismoo9769]

Is already hard for me as a assasination Rogue to do a good amount of dmg and now you are telling me they are going to Nerf my kings bane

[@dariuswhitefang2993]

as a legion havoc enjoyer DF saison 3+ was awesome. But the new hero talent ruins almost everything. It works great if you can keep it up but you almost everytime trying to do so. so the potentical highest dps dosent feel well at all at the moment. depending on the needs of my group i would consider frost DK if melees are needed.

[@zeveroarerules]

Druid main, forever. Since vanilla.

[@Ciansatlas]

God dang now the frost dk moved on the list for TWW

[@cooller8888]

I haven't played since mid-showlands and as a Rogue main who enjoys assa and sub I'm disappointed and I think I'm gonna wait till season 2 at least if I come back, which is unlikely.

[@Graavigala85]

just as always: which class has the best gear wins and plate wearers seem to have the best looking world loot sets so its easy to pick

[@markuslc1888]

currently the dps difference between the weakest and strongest specs are 800k dps, so ranking such a tuning mess is kinda pointless

[@fredspekvet5875]

No its not. we're not looking just at dps or how it performs, we're looking at all the factors. does it play well. does the rotation feel good. are the new talent trees any good.. etc etc. there is more in the world than just dps, you know.

[@markuslc1888]

@@fredspekvet5875 dude if a spec does tank dmg it's not relevant, if it plays well or not, because you won't be able to raid or do m+, that's how WoW is, if the tuning is somewhat right than the playstyle comes into consideration etc. if a dps spec does 0 dmg it's moreless dead, you know?

[@keithb6344]

@@markuslc1888balance tuning hasn’t happened yet. So how much damage a class does right now doesn’t matter.

[@fredspekvet5875]

@@markuslc1888 No. because not everyone does instances. or does pvp. there's loads of people where pure dps doesnt mean a damned thing

[@markuslc1888]

@@keithb6344 true it's just curious how off it is

[@Ethan_Coble]

As a WW main, I honestly am super grateful that they decided to rework one of the less popular specs and they really listened to the WW community about what changes they wanted to see. Feels good to finally get some love and common sense changes that were desperately needed for the last few expansions. Blizz really knocked it outa the park with the class and spec tree!

[@Svanir.80]

Seeing Havoc, Frost DK, and Survival in the A tier warms my heart. Been my favorite characters to play for ages now

[@coroflame8098]

Havoc shouldn't be in A tier tho. The tuning and damage profiles of the hero talents mean that aldrachi reaver is miles ahead of fel scarred and everyone hates how it play. Kelani gave it an A because he liked it in dragonflight but in the state its in it will feel god awful to play

[@Nightmase]

Im kinda disappointed in the enhancer :( and were still waiting for shamans / paladins to be released for every race ....

[@AustinMumford]

Shamans and paladins released for every race? What? How does that fit in lore?

[@Nightmase]

@@AustinMumford so you want to argue with lore but got tauren rouge ? Weird :D and btw there are already undead priests aswell as crusaders who use the light

[@Zerashadow]

i would lowkey love to play Void Elf or Lightforged Shaman, but regular space-smurf will have to do for now.

[@EternalAngel333]

Wont bother with tierlists as expansion isnt fully out specs are getting changes left right and center making tierlists like this before its even out is kinda eh and should not really be looked at.

[@JazzyGaming]

They changed Skyfury for Shaman. It wouldve been a nice change but now its just kinda meh

[@Kronosbattlemaps]

Generally any class with a spec overhaul will be good if not broken and op. It's literally happened every single time.

[@wesleyvl8572]

Dk paldin monk are the best

[@GdzieJestNemo]

i'm so split between Shaman and DK right now

[@snhazzy3325]

Go shaman

[@Zerashadow]

my 2 options were Enh shaman or Affli lock, was locked in on shaman but it seems lock will be great as well, but shaman is so enjoyable to play

[@rathburn42]

From what ive seen don't play enh shammy. I haven't heard many good things about it at all.

[@GdzieJestNemo]

@@rathburn42 people say it plays pretty much the same as in df - which means awesome. Changing it would suck

[@rathburn42]

@@GdzieJestNemo i mean its not used for anything in DF my man the class is in an awful place. Thats why its one of the least played specs in the game. You like what you like thought glade you enjoy it.

[@einjhell]

i guess pally will have nerf again S class before launch haha

[@arzos2603]

RIP Unholy DK after todays nerf

[@Andy07777]

Every class segment starts with "the spec has not changed much". I am not very confident about the expansion and if its even worth playing.

[@michaelkennielsen1422]

TLDR: When he says "Fluid" he means easy. And the ranks are based on how easy specs are to play

[@elliotsimpson3591]

TWW is still 2 months away, that's a LONG time for Blizzard to make changes and shake up whatever the meta of this video is!

[@petfish7385]

SV or mage....

[@theR1ch]

Outlaw AoE frustrates me, so it's Assassination for me.

[@Coboltjet]

so wheres the DPS comparisons? theres no indication on how each class is doing compared to another, but it seems like ur just going by how u FEEL about the classes. Otherwise nice video on the feel of the class.

[@Xatox262]

Thats because number tuning is still going, which could make the whole ranking irrelevant in a few weeks

[@Coboltjet]

@@Xatox262 i guessed that, but we are 3 weeks from pre-patch, and 7 weeks from launch the majority if not all of the drastic changes are done by now.

[@keithb6344]

@@Coboltjet not for balance. There is almost always a massive balance patch after the game launches and before mythic raid starts.

[@zuralani1]

@@Coboltjet that's not true at all. They literally only started to try tuning some things this week

[@frankcastle9691]

The horde win.

[@Fillster]

I'm having a hard time deciding to play fury warrior or frost dk. Can anyone help me decide? :D

[@richiepipes8960]

Same. Frost seems boring after a while.

[@rokogrga43]

Fury is the best spec in the game, with fire mage being a second. Frost dk doesnt come close. Its badass to have two two handed weapons

[@BeastMastery]

Frost still play around that horrible breath long cd hard to time build...

[@Fillster]

I trust yalls opinion and go warrior. I was kinda secretly hoping for this anwser, but I wanted to make sure

[@vondry87]

@@rokogrga43 But it´s also very expensive. By the time everyone else has already crafted their two 1-h weapons or one 2-h weapons and they are good to go, you only have one 2h weapon and need one more. Not to mention that the other classes can usually tank with their dps weapons as well while warrior needs to grab another weapon and shield so in total you need 3 x more sparks than other classes. I mained warrior in DF but will be switching to another class in TWW (not yet decided which one).

[@ChemiiOneLegacy]

Stuff like this is entertaining but that's really all anyone should take from it. Every single person told and video told me hunters would be bad in Dragonflight but because I liked playing Marksman especially I just went with it. Nearly all the predictions were incorrect and the first season of M+ I absolutely carried. Play what you enjoy first, the numbers will always be in flux.

[@killerbam1234]

do casters pls

[@sermerlin1]

I just wish WoW focused less on hack n slash and more on single target control/DPS. I just find it ridiculous how every class is equiped with almost AOE only abilities and setup to destroy pull of 10-15 enemies per pull (dungeons, raids etc). I'm probably if not definitely a minority here but I enjoyed so much more when instead of just pulling couple groups at once and slapping them all to death we CCed and focused target or 2 per pull of a group... and avoided smartly what we could. I just feel like now I'm playing diablo game (literally as I need to zoom all the way out and watch isometrically in order to see enemy AOEs and wtf is going on) in a WoW skin since we're just hacking and slashing. But I guess that's just me.

[@dgoodwin1122]

Where are all my Feral friends at? 😁