Siim Land Podcast: Conquer Aging or Die Trying! (Michael Lustgarten, PhD)

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Timestamps:
00:54 Importance of Tracking Biomarkers
05:05 Michael's 15 Years of Biohacking
11:20 Can You Know When You're Going to Die
16:40 Adding Healthy Years to Your Life
18:24 Most Important for Slowing Speed of Aging
19:30 Calorie Restriction for Slowing Speed of Aging
26:40 How Much Exercise is Good for You
32:45 Heart Rate and HRV
37:20 Muscle Mass vs Strength for Longevity
42:40 Tips for Starting In Your 50s
46:00 How Michael Trains VO2 Max
49:55 Main Principles of Food for Longevity
59:02 Foods vs Calories
01:03:15 Cholesterol and Mortality
01:08:30 DHEA-S and Testosterone
01:12:00 Biomarkers Everyone Should Know
01:16:40 Bloodwork for Longevity
Siim Land's KZbin Channel: / @siimland

[@imtryinghere1]

I was just thinking the last month how strange it is that Peter Attia, Andrew Huberman, Rhonda Patrick, etc. never interview Michael Lustgarten about his N=1 experiments. It is something that one of them should have done by now to get some input as to how a person approaches personal experimentation and discussion of the literature in various subjects. Nice to see Siim identify this opportunity and put an interview together.

[@beepbeepnj2658]

Richard Arvin Overton was still driving his truck at age 109. He had a special meal plan called the Overton diet, and if you didn't take his advice he would say it's your own bad luck.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

No worries, even if none of those names engage, I'm happy to provide content solely to this channel. I'd rather have a dedicated group of Spartans than a wider casual audience...

[@imtryinghere1]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 The process for all these new age health podcasters is the same. They pick a subject (cardiovascular disease, ADHD, alzheimer's, longevity, women's hormones, etc.) and then they do a review of the literature (as they see it) or interview a subject matter expert. But inevitably in all these interviews, there is a final question like "OK guest subject matter expert, so what supplement/intervention are you taking? What are you doing?" or "What is Peter Attia doing/recommending about XYZ subject?" I just think it would be interesting to have a guest on who is only testing, exploring. And obviously not everything applies to everyone. My risk of most cancers is very low. But it's interesting and educational for people to see how one person evaluates a set of risk factors and makes choices. It's not that every viewer has to perfectly match Dr. Lustgarten's macro nutrient ratio profile. Good luck either way.

[@monnoo8221]

Attia and Huberman are not really relevant references. They engage in gossiping, never any precise information. Meanwhile I block almost every channel where they appear more than once

[@imtryinghere1]

@@monnoo8221 Huberman has over 100 peer reviewed credited papers to his name. IDK how many are first author, but he has a 41 h-index. The guy summarizes information in his podcasts, but he does a pretty good job, I think. I think they (incl. Attia) are both pretty rigorous, especially given today's media environment.

[@jben4807]

Dr. L, I can’t tell you how much I agree with you. We hear so much crap about high protein, big muscles, high Vo2 max, etc. yet no mention of bio markers or proof that these strategies are beneficial. In fact, if we look to the history of the longest living people, it suggests a much different approach to living a longer, healthier life.

[@beepbeepnj2658]

George Burns on his 100th birthday speech got up to the podium with his typical martini and cigar in hand and told the audience, "If I knew I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself."

[@jmc8076]

He was great and maybe had some genetic help. He just lived life vs hacking it. 😂 My role model is Dr Ellesworth Wareham.

[@beepbeepnj2658]

@@jmc8076 Actually George Burns ate a very good diet and always kept super fit and slim, his sense of humor is also a type of nutrition. He did smoke cigars but you don't inhale them and he used them mostly for a prop. He had 2-4 drinks a day but was never drunk. If your role model is Dr. Wareham he told a lot of lies. He would change is story with each interviewer, once he said he was a vegan for 50 years but it was found out he was a life long regular consumer of fish and his wife cooked with dairy and eggs. Another lie he told is if your total cholesterol is under 140 mg/dL you are heart attack proof but this is also 100% false.

[@rickyida971]

Appreciate for your personal experiment....more realistic than animal test or other tests

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @rickyida971!

[@SchaferBob1]

What a great interview, Michael! You showed your impressive depth of knowledge that you have on the anti-aging and aging biomarker topic. Your Spartan team will keep supporting you. We have to find you a ghost writer to work with you on a book as you definitely blow away Attia, Huberman, and the rest of the doctors. Siim was nice to interview you as he works really hard like you do. Keep up the fantastic work, doctor!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @SchaferBob1!

[@williamhenry3337]

Jack LaLane lived to be 96 years old. He did his daily 2 hour excercise routine up until the day before he died. He ate 2 meals a day and was mostly plant based but NOT a vegan.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Yes, true, but 96 is too young for me. I'm aiming for 123y+

[@williamhenry3337]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 LaLanne often said, “I can never die; that would ruin my image!” The fitness guru passed away, of respiratory failure due to pneumonia, at his home on January 23, 2011. He was 96. According to his family, he had been sick for a week but refused to see a doctor. They added that he had been performing his daily workout routine the day before his death. He did not have the formal education you have and the scientific tools. Plus "if " he had gone to the doctors he might have gone longer. YES, you can do 123 plus. The last time I was at a doctors office was in 1969.

[@debstayblessed9549]

He appears to not only to have lost weight but also looks younger. 👏👏 Great video.

[@Elaba_]

Others should do similar experiments to get more data.

[@TheReminderChannnel]

Heard this on Siims KZbin channel earlier this morning, so very beneficial to see a different side to you, thank you Michael 💪 👌

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @TheReminderChannnel. Ha, or to see me at all! Usually I'm behind the data, lol

[@TheReminderChannnel]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 haha yes exactly! 👌 🙏

[@wesselendtz6707]

Thanks Michael, you have helped me take this serious at a young age (21)! Love the data driven approach, I think personal experiment like you are doing takes the complexity of a specific person into account when making changes and thus I think this will be the future of health and longevity science!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Cool, I agree, and thanks @wesselendtz6707! if I can offer advice, I'd collect as much data as you can at your age...You'll then know what youth looks like on the inside, and can optimize all years going forward against that.

[@wesselendtz6707]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Thanks a lot! I am working on it, doing good on the wearable biomarkers. But the blood data is a little harder budget wise, but I am working to be able to afford it. Your suggestion on which blood tests to start with helps a lot. Hope to implement that soon.

[@wesselendtz6707]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 just wanted to ask if you have some sort of discord group or something else where some of you followers can gather and share their hypothesis / data? If not, I would highly recommend it (maybe even add it to a patreon tier)

[@Nando_lifts2021]

Great podcast a great reminder to track strength and diet and stay a little hungry. Im a shift worker and sleep is not awesome. But hopefully tracking everything else will help.

[@abdelilahbenahmed4350]

Great interview, prof. LUSTGARTEN. You provided a lot of excellent and unique information. Actually it was a kind of masterclass.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @abdelilahbenahmed4350!

[@riaon]

yes my two favorite youtubers. thank you for this

[@joannawilliams1763]

Thanks for such a great interview! Is there a link for the 18 biomarker test you sometimes use, i think you called it aging dotti I, but not sure a heard this correctly?!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @joannawilliams1763. I don't have a link, but it's a CBC + standard chem panel, which is what's offered at a yearly physical in the US. Aging.ai for biological age estimation with the test data

[@SilverFan21k]

Longevity ❤

[@peterz53]

Great discussion. Thanks. Optimizing each key organ system makes sense. If you ever gain insight into dealing with slack skin (or collage/elastin health) issue please share. Thought autophagy (increased by occasional longer fast) might help, but really don't know.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @peterz53. Unfortunately, outside of surgery, I think the best bet is to get lean and stay lean from youth. If someone gains 20 lbs during the course of their lifetime, even if most of it is muscle, if there's an age-related reduction for muscle mass, the skin will appear loose and stretched. With that in mind, my focus is to add more muscle while not adding body fat, which is easier said than done.

[@jben4807]

Yes, I’m 48 trying to add muscle is hard, ESP without adding fat.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@jben4807 Definitely. I think most people try to lose weight too fast-conversely, some also try to gain muscle too fast, resulting in a fat gain, too.

[@jmc8076]

It’s not just length of life it’s quality of health.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Definitely

[@justsaying7065]

Hi Mike, Great interview! How much do you spend on testing every year?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @justsaying7065. About $250/month on average. At the base level with only the CBC, chem panel, and hsCRP, it would be a lot less, $40/month.

[@dvansoye]

Great interview. Looking forward to the book or books. Seems that you could be doing more personal consulting or perhaps classes with a cohort to supplement your income further. There are those people out there that would pay dearly for help with this. I know that you're doing this now. Perhaps you just need to raise your rates or get someone to help you to expand this part of your business. Let's chat offline if you are interested in brainstorming this further. Again, great interview. You are definitely onto something unique here, Michael.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @dvansoye, I do work with clients, i.e. personal consulting, and also for businesses. The book is a tricky option-do I quit my day job and do this full time? Will getting a book deal and book sales generate enough revenue to pay the bills? I'm not sure about that, yet...

[@SchaferBob1]

Hey Michael@@conqueragingordietrying123. I would keep your day job while trying these new business ideas on the side. I don't think most full-time You Tubers make much money especially since KZbin cut back on commissions. There is no money in self-publishing so you will need a publisher. Michael Greger is coming out with a huge anti-aging book in December. This book apparently has over 10K references although he doesn't use your personal biomarker approach. As you know as an experimenter, it is best to try things incrementally and go slow. Michael G has a nice salary from his non-profit and Bryan is a self-made multi-millionaire. I created my own nutrition product and the business did okay locally, but I couldn't get the national chains to buy it so decided to close it as it just wasn't worth the time and small return. I am glad I kept my day job and continue to play with dreams and hobbies on the side. Good luck and thanks for the channel!

[@chuclkles58]

Siim Drinking Game: Skol a shot of Aquavit every time " You Kno" is muttered 😅

[@neilquinn]

54:00 I feel like Doc Lustgarten was thinking of my comment from the last video on homocysteine :). One thing I need to figure out is how long in between trying new foods/diets I should test. Like is 30d typically enough?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Some biomarkers may change more slowly (epigenetic changes) than others (metabolites), so I don't focus on how short or long that they can be impacted, but multiple tests over time, which can help account for that variability.

[@jackbuaer3828]

Hi Michael: Do you feel that there is anything in your personal optimization diet that is inconsistent or antithetical to the majority of the scientific literature? It seems to me that your diet and results are consistent with findings in epidemiological data ( That is to say, the epidemiological data, like your personal data, seems to suggest that a high plant based diet with fish and yogurt, is beneficial for you personally). It would seem that perhaps your exercise program / results may be inconsistent with the epidemiological data, as the epidemiological data seems to recommend high volume, low intensity exercise daily.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hi Jack, even though epi studies are a nice guide, I let the biomarkers guide me. In terms of my exercise program, it's 2 moderate-high vigorous workouts/week (~170 minutes total), in combination with walking on the other days.Tthe epi studies on moderate-vigorous PA and ACM, risk show a plateau at 150 minutes, but I didn't choose workout duration based on that, instead focusing on HRV and RHR, which are now close to youthful.

[@jackbuaer3828]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 This study presented by Siim seems to suggest greater than 900 minutes of light intensity exercise per week as being ideal for longevity from an epidemiological standpoint. I did not read the study. I don't come close to that and would not enjoy that. I get in more than 150 minutes of moderate vigorous though. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rHelZqdrrbmlaMU

[@olyav5819]

When you can, update on DHEA-S. Wonder if anything can bring it up. When do you think you might know?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

I'm blood testing next Monday, so a couple of weeks after that, at the latest. Upcoming videos are ahead of DHEAS in the queue including epigenetic and telomere results due this weekend, a potential impact for fish oil FAs on NAD, and metabolomic kidney function markers.

[@JyriMasta]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 DHEAS is made from cholesterol. If your cholesterol is low, your DHEAS will be low-ish. Total cholesterol by the way does not seem to correlate well with heart problems, it is more of Lp(a) and ApoB, which you have covered. Great interview, indeed :) I would be curious to see your daily menu :)

[@jackbuaer3828]

@@JyriMasta I don't think it's that simple. My cholesterol is very low. I don't think my DHEA is extremely low, though it's not high either. For example, in July my Total Cholesterol was 134 mg/dl and my DHEA was 2.26 ng/ml, age -mid 50s.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@JyriMasta While mechanistically that can be true, in my case it isn't-my cholesterol levels ~15y ago, when DHEAS was 300, are similar to today.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@JyriMasta Daily diet data is posted on Patreon

[@Sam-gs7yb]

Great podcast very informative. Question was is your opinion on TRT for lifespan/healthspan in general. In your opinion do the cons outweigh the pros or vice versa

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Before using TRT, I think the best bet is to blood test often in conjunction with diet, fitness, sleep, etc tracking to see if lifestyle improvements can improve it. Then, after much trial and error and no success, potentially TRT.

[@olyav5819]

You refer Dunedin pace and the body fat, are these two correlate? How do you know that? I've also heard that too low body fat can be not good.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

DunedinPACE was the only epigenetic test amongst the gold standard tests (Horvath, GrimAge, etc) to identify an epigenetic age reduction in a 2-yr RCT for CR in people, so it's likely that the reduction in body weight (and fat mass) on CR is what it's (at least) good at detecting. Yep, too low can also be bad, I've got an eye out for that!.

[@olyav5819]

Good conversation! I am not sure what study do you refer for cholesterol. But I've heard from the cardiologists that they can, with help of the pills , reduce LDL # to close to 0 to prevent heart attacks and it will not affect the life span. The cholesterol might be lower due to some other health issues, but not because you decrease it.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks Olya. I'm not sure about low TC preventing heart attacks, but there's plenty of data that lowering TC in CVD patients improves survival. Low LDL is associated with an increased all-cause mortality risk in this paper, even at younger ages (18-44y): pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35218344/ Note that LDL is low in youth, which raises the question, how would you know if your LDL is youthful, or suggestive of an increased all-cause mortality risk? I think within the context of other youthful biomarkers is the best bet.

[@ADorschner]

Thanks!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks for your support @ADorschner!

[@happytrader4828]

Possible that immune system and lymphocytes etc are not the target for allergies and histamine optimisation is the true target so vitamin C, stinging nettle ect...

[@Nando_lifts2021]

So how are you adding strength and battling sarcopenia ?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Strength training has been a regular part of my approach for 35+ years For ex., from a couple of weeks ago: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ena2hnqCgp6Ciac

[@MrGiooshow]

Hello there! I'm 25 years old and I'm really interested in taking care of my fitness and cardio health. Could you please advise me on what type of fitness routine or cardio exercises would be best for someone my age? Additionally, I'd appreciate some guidance on what medical tests I should consider getting to check my overall health. Since I'm on a budget, I'm wondering which tests are more affordable yet still provide important insights. I'm based in Europe, so some of the options you might mention might be more US-specific. Looking forward to your suggestions and advice!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hi @MrGiooshow, I'd recommend a fitness tracker that can provide HRV, RHR, the average daily HR, and sleep respiratory rate, which provide a lot of info. In terms of blood tests, the basics are relatively cheap, including a standard chemistry panel and complete blood count + hsCRP, which in total is $80 USD.

[@MrGiooshow]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Thank you so much for your response! Your recommendations are really helpful. I'm interested in getting a complete blood count and hsCRP test done. Could you please let me know where in Europe I can typically go to get these tests? Also, I'm intrigued by the idea of using a fitness tracker to monitor my HRV, RHR, average daily HR, and sleep respiratory rate. While you didn't mention a specific brand or model, could you share what fitness tracker you personally use or any brands you would recommend for these features? Your insights are greatly appreciated!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@MrGiooshow Your local physician can order the tests. I use WHOOP, both other fitness trackers should be close to equivalent for measuring CV metrics.

[@gregsLyrics]

I lost count of how many adds that kept interrupting this important health vid. So frustrating that I could not focus on the importance of the lecture. Very unfortunate when a channel decides to monetize with a hundred adds.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

I'm thinking about offering videos on Patreon, ad-free, maybe that will be of interest.

[@stronggrom68]

Greg get KZbin premium or deal with the ads , sad when someone getting free information decides to complain about a minor inconvenience.

[@0626love]

@ Michael Lustgarten what do you think of the theory that calculated correlation between lower mortality with higher cholesterol in elderly is related to big cancer rates in elderly - hear me out; cancer is known to use cholesterol and so - cholesterol drops in cancer patients a lot - so this gives lower cholesterol in elderly a bad rep because there is this reverse causation - people dying (a lot from cancer actually) have lower cholesterol because they have a disease that kills them and eats cholesterol so-to-speak, and not the other way around (cholesterol shortening the life span)? I've seen this analyzed and it makes sense. JUst look for papers that explain cancer cholesterol requirements.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Yep, reverse causation in advanced age, whether from cancer or something else is possible. The issue is the increased all-cause mortality risk for low LDL at young ages (18-44y). For example, pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35218344/.

[@0626love]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Oh wow somehow I missed that in the video and haven't seen the study - now will have to think about it, thanks a ton for the link!

[@0626love]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Okay, after taking a look at it, I think its the same for younger people :) reverse causation by many conditions also in young, many common fatal conditions decrease cholesterol. So. ;) Anyway, makes sense scientifically

[@Nando_lifts2021]

Have you tried an ice bath ?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Not yet

[@furiousdoe7779]

Bedankt

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks for your support @furiousdoe7779!

[@immortalityIMT]

Time for stem cells?

[@jimdres7000]

Wow ..Great podcast. Michael appears to have lost some weight .

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks @jimdres7000. Yes on weight loss, detailed here kzbin.info/www/bejne/a2LWhIirZbWUmLc. No strength loss-see the recent pull-up video, overhead press video coming soon.

[@jimdres7000]

You can definitely tell ..Well done on 9 lbs weight loss whilst preserving and building body strength and maintaining healthy lean muscle mass.

[@tedschwartz2142]

where in euROPE HE IS GOING I WOULD LIKE TO MEET HIM IF HE IS IN CENTRAL EUROPE ...

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

I may go to Greece next spring/summer

[@tedschwartz2142]

oh not to central europe ..

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Not yet, no plans@@tedschwartz2142

[@tedschwartz2142]

ok

[@saiforos7928]

It's not my place to tell you how to live your life. But if you're thinking about maybe quitting your scientific day job to focus on this because of the funding carousel, maybe turn it around. Science is no longer necessary for your sustenance, so you can take more risks in pursuit of the exact projects you want. Apply for your dream grant. And if you can't get a grant, there's a perfect alternative. You're considering quitting anyway, it's not even an alternative, it's your future unless you get that moonshot grant. So maybe you can see it as allowing you to take that risk precisely because you have other opportunities. Of course I say that behind the brave safety of my keyboard.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

It's more than the funding carousel, academia is slow, recruiting people into studies is a challenge, and other stuff. Science will always be a part of my life, in academia or not. I wouldn't look it as quitting, but doing stuff that will more directly benefit people, and more quickly. I haven't made that decision yet either way, stay tuned...

[@monnoo8221]

Michael, that was a good one, learnt so,e interesting things again ... about you. (and me) ... In the (not so) distant future you will be referenced as metabolic human #0. :))) It is long accepted in management, that without measurement there is no management, and without experimentation there is no optimization. Thank you so much . Yet, I would like to add a remark: Mr. Land has to update his knowledge about cholesterol and fat intake. He is trying several times in this interview to corroborate an ancient perspective (eg @1h01), which is a complete myth, deliberately put into the world by ansel keys, the AHA and the seed oil lobby. I suggest you listen to the podcasts of Levels with Dr. Lustig, or the channel "low carb downunder", or Dr.Sten Ekberg