WHY LMDh are the better GT3s in 2024 - iRacing vs. Automobilista 2

[@SuffyANX]

LMDh is much better in AMS2 than I expected, honestly. The typical slight slides and forgiving tires are there, but it does feel like it's possible to make them actually skid in some circumstances, as well as oversteer on braking here and there, even if it still takes way too much of a mistake to really do so. The braking definitely feels pretty unique and the way the downforce comes and goes as you increase and decrease speed reminds me a lot of the old group C and GTP cars, where the low speed stuff feels almost more like a GT or stiffer touring car than a prototype, but the fast sections are still breakneck and tempt you to trust the downforce and push the speed higher. A really fun dynamic, and I'm glad these cars are already so popular both in sims and IRL

[@tacticalnuclearpingutv290]

This really is a fantastic breakdown about the two sims and their differences and similarities without passing opinionated judgement. We need more content that is objective like this in the community to counteract the tabloid types. Excellent job!

[@cypcyphurra8755]

The LMDh rules sound really good - need to look up the detailed GT3 rules. Maybe they will adapt to it as well in future. Regarding the other classes in ACC getting abandoned quickly: agree with that but my feeling is also because of Kunos abandoning it. No BoP adjustments, basically one car rules them all - no Toyota Supra GT4. Personally I love GT4s and I love multi class

[@fs5490]

I don't know if that's true, but I read that kunos is tied to the bop of the sro. so irl bop. would be pointless but would explain a lot

[@kronos711]

Always looks forward to your AMS 2 videos. Always a great insight very fair

[@recarsion]

I really enjoy how you can set the ERS mode with the LMDh cars. It creates a nice build up in qualifying where you first have a warmup/charging lap before putting on the Rich fuel map and Qualify mode on the ERS and then go full send. As much as I love GT3, these cars are simply more interesting. Also, as a G29 owner I was really impressed with the FFB in AMS2 compared to ACC. It lets me feel the oversteer much better, so even though AMS2 has very slidey physics I can actually control it, and this goes also for GT3 and every other car I've tried, not just LMDh. In ACC it sort of just snaps and I don't feel it until it's too late (and yes I tried all sorts of FFB settings, nothing made a difference).

[@AmbientMike]

Always great to hear your thoughts. Ive been in love with the Cadillac in AMS2. Sooo good sounding.

[@DustySticks]

I still have my criticisms of the AI, but to be honest your argument that you passed too many AI at the start is a little misleading when at the very start of the race you dropped down on the apron and overtook a bunch before you even crossed the start finish line. I know you technically can do that, but its illegal in most series and I believe the AI at least try to not overtake until they cross that start finish line on a rolling start.

[@onionbagarch8243]

Yeah, my main criticism of AI is that it only trains you to be good against AI - there are things (legal or otherwise) that you just can’t do against real opponents.

[@arride4590]

@@onionbagarch8243 try to beat the Iracing AI at 100% (alien). Hahahaha

[@TobiwanKentobiSimracing]

What I also really like about LMDh, they have a strategic element with their Power-Unit, that is not working like DRS which needs to be manually activated, but more like TC and ABS being an element to be more efficient with fuel-usage and engine power and the possibility to be faster in corners... if you set the PU to "recharge" it produces less power but it generates more while decellarating, so the electric motor(s) help with braking a bit. And if you need to gain time, you can use the power on the longer straights or better overtake out of the slipstream. I think this is especially great for Endurance racing, because the gain margin per lap might not be huge, but if you use the PU strategically you can influence how much time your team can use in pit stops for repairs etc. And comparing LMDh in AMS2 vs. iRacing, I think or have the feeling, that in iRacing those cars are faster on accelerating, it is easier on multiclass to overtake slower classes on corner exits... but right after release Reiza deployed an hotfix, that improved on that. Was noticeable because I often didn't reach the 7th gear, even on the long straights of Le Mans. But in terms of downforce, FFB and responsiveness of the cars going through corners they are very very similar, AMS2 and iRacing... so maybe they nailed it. Love LMDh. Didn't so much when iRacing introduced the BMW, but I wrapped my head around that and when iRacing added more LMDh I got it and really enjoyed driving them. So the transition to this class in AMS2 was almost seamless for me. Great car class!

[@Fyrespit]

I really love reading about how the MGU-K can/should be used, "if you need to gain time, you can use the power on the longer straights or better overtake out of the slipstream". Especially from iRacers that have no idea how wrong/poor their LMDh implementation is. Look at the graph at 4:28 - the powertrain cannot exceed this graph at ANY time, so tell me how you're using the MGU-K to gain time on straights or overtake? Because iRacing copy-pasted an irrelevant mechanic from the hybrid F1 cars, now over a year ago and still haven't corrected it. Where is the electric pit-lane start? Again over a year after release and LMDh still lacks this feature. Where is the limited energy per stint? Listen at 7:27 - over a year later on the premium motorsports simulator, no sign of it. Brake migration implemented such that operation is the reverse of wording in tooltips and manuals. Just to be clear I'm not trying to target your comment specifically, rather trying to expose iRacing on a half-baked product with multiple lacking or wrongly implemented features that remain unaltered over a year since release. Meanwhile charging premium prices for said half-baked content, on top of a subscription.

[@nuztuz903]

@@Fyrespit damn I thought Iracing had done it better than that. So does the hybrid kick in around 160 to 190 like irl or nah? i know the ams ones do not but Reiza have said that they have it being worked on and should come out soonish

[@Fyrespit]

@@nuztuz903 There's no minimum speed for the hybrid in LMDh. In LMH there are minimum speeds for the hybrid which are set by the BoP. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Mans_Hypercar#Powertrain

[@heelandtoeknee]

Super informative and I think I got it now. 😂 good introduction to rules and car id. Also the IRacing comparison was helpful as I’ve never driven it. Thanks Nils and frohes neues Jahr! 🎊

[@SimracingArnout]

I really like your video's Nils. you got so much inside info great!

[@peermancolin]

great video and in-depth analysis

[@Kuolema1337]

I am always so torn when it comes to chose a sim because as a rally and drift fan, the physics in iRacing are very frustrating, as you said you can't play on the limit of slip angle and grip which means you're bound to learn inputs by heart and repeat them ad nauseam instead of driving and feeling the car in real time. At least the online competition is there to spice things up. Assetto Corsa is far more rewarding in regards to physics and force feedback ; have you tried the LMDH in LFM? I had some fun on the MX-5 but it gets boring after a while.

[@SimracingPopometer]

i shall try AC based LMDhs. if you like rallycross i made a video about it in ams2. it is great. but i guess you want to drive against others and that might be more tricky

[@jelly.1899]

What is LFM?

[@SimracingPopometer]

@@jelly.1899 lowfuelmotorsport.com - they have busy scheduled races for acc and ac. ac has been super popular the last couple weeks

[@jelly.1899]

@@SimracingPopometer Danke! Mehr content zu ams2 weiterhin, bitte 😀

[@Emir_de_Passy]

As usual, excellent analysis. Thanks

[@Leynad778]

The AMS2-AI is usually better at 110 and I've noticed already that the LMDh-class was a bit too slow for me at Le Mans. I had some pretty good AI-races lately in other classes like latest Stockcars and Super V8 and got overtaken as well usually for doing little mistakes. Those two classes and others like F Retro are a bit more spicy on the limit and there is a too much which is close to the optimum. iRacing sucks on the limit and this on/off grip is not realistic. I can't imagine how driving in the rain is possible with this kind of physics.

[@kiekiek]

Would be nice if you can talk about some setups for the AMS2 LMDH cars. I lose the car often while braking a bit too aggressively and when I steer into the corner, like the slow chicane at Imola (you know, after the hill climb, at the end), other than that I quite enjoy the lmdh car for AMS2

[@SimracingPopometer]

so far seems like you can drive quite aggressive sets. so you probably want the front as low as it doesnt or barely bottoms out ~40mm, then at least 20mm rake or more, max wing on most tracks that arent daytona or le mans, monza really. stiffen rear, soften front. bump stop travel seems to work a bit different in ams2. keeping the rear up seems to keep the rear planted instead of making it very pointy. in imola maybe you need to lift up the entire car a bit for kerb clearance

[@kiekiek]

As it turned out to be. I had the dpi version of the cadillac selected, not the LMDH, the dpi drives terrible. Nevertheless I used your setup tips, I like them. @@SimracingPopometer

[@unotoli]

Looking forward to comparison with LeMans from Studio397

[@darrenalmodiel4291]

Never really considered lmdh until now. Great video. Followup question: what seat are you using? Is styrofoam material?

[@SimracingPopometer]

its a RCC seat, and we ordered a few of them to sell in germany (and around if needed). If you need one message me on discord :) They are made with 2 shells and are very rigid - very useful for strong loadcells. But I'm not aware of the actual material used.

[@lukebraddford3287]

Great breakdown and informative video, thank you so much!

[@rynosraceroom66]

Where can I find more info on #AC2 ? TFTC

[@SimracingPopometer]

you can't

[@davidcastineirasgarcia7751]

I haven't tried Iracing, I don't know which of the two is more realistic, I would have to ask a real driver in that category, but the LMDH of AMS2 are so enjoyable that it makes you want to do about 24 hours, plus graphically it is a real spectacle. ..thanks for the video...

[@Pandomar1]

All in all Le Mans ultimate will propably nail the physics, but how it will perform otherwise and will people buy it after ams pack

[@SimracingPopometer]

we shall find out, i would think that rf2 takes it a bit further than just adding the cars and tracks. focussing on a series allows to go deep at least.

[@31chh0rn]

did you by any chance mix up the cars in the chapter descriptions? Was not aware of iracings credible ai bit the sibscription model still puts me off a bit. have you tried rf2 recently? they have some lmp and old lmh cars afaik but nothing current and since lmu is a thing i do not expect them to change that. Would you say the lmp classes are equally interesting or os it only lmdh that caight your attention?

[@SimracingPopometer]

I did, changed the descirption :D haven't tried rf2 with the lmdh cause LMU basically is rf2, so im hoping they have put their effort on that and we'll see a potentially even better interpreration there. 2 months wait and we'll know :) LMP1: It was ditched eventually because too costly and also because the cars were again getting more edgy and thus only to be handled by pros. I believe thats where LMDh took a different turn almost ruling out difficult cars so that a wider range of drivers can pilot them.

[@marccollins1445]

Based on your description of how one can drive in each of the two titles, one is a sim and the other is a classic "video game." That's an oversimplification, but the inability to actually drive a race car as you would in real life reminds me why I let my iRacing subscription lapse. It has so many impressive features, but the basic physics are at least a decade behind others.

[@WarmRed77]

The AI calibration in AMS2 still needs to be adjusted on many tracks, as AMS2 has quite a few of them, it may take some time until they are all done.

[@Endemiq2]

Great video. Regarding ams2 slidy behavior I finally got a handle on it. Those are not slides actually it's a body roll induced diff. The weird thing about it body roll and diff are almost perfectly balanced so they form a self correcting loop preventing progressing towards the grip limit. More body roll = more diff = less body roll and vice versa. On practice it feels like you have perfect amount of diff engagement in every corner. With that knowledge I was able to break that self correcting loop and replicate all my acc setups almost perfectly. Doing that felt like I'm breaking a perfectly balanced setup just to feel familiar pain tho :D which is both 'realistic' and 'wrong' for different reasons.

[@kronos711]

It always seems to me that in AMS 2 the body of the car is pointing way deeper into the corner in comparison to the tires which makes it seem as if the car is sliding all the time even when it may not be. Also the ever present exit oversteer.

[@SuffyANX]

So what is the actual solution, then? Just stiffening ARBs into orbit to reduce body roll, or fiddling with diff settings? If this actually works like you say I'm very curious to try it, because I've never found anything that really fixes that weird lateral sliding feeling in AMS2

[@SimracingPopometer]

Thats a lot of things thrown together. While the roll in general will have its impact on load of the inside rear tire and its capability to put power into the ground, a GTP should not lean like a stadium super truck. Especially with several hundred kilos of downforce pressing the rear into the ground you should not see a strong roll/differential relationship on power. From my testing in ams2 you have two options: A very open diff on power allowing blunt throttle inputs and that power evaporating through the inside wheel while the outside wheel stays largely planted at the cost of basically all acceleration. Or you go for a quickly locking diff on power which lets you play with the rear end along the entire throttle pedal, which will again put you in the perpetual exit sliding but also good acceleration as both rear wheels are propelling the car forward. Either way race cars will usually ALWAYS have a locked diff on power. There was even a paper investigating that question.

[@Endemiq2]

@@SuffyANX Nils pointed out how to tame the diff in the prev ams2 video. Set clutches to 2 and go up in preload if you need to. Antirollbars need to go softer, as soft as you can tolerate. Add 1 to rear downforce and shift brake bias to the rear. That will fix rear stepping out for you. If you want the car to stop straightening out on the throttle drop rear toe to 0 too. (edit: this is for gt3)

[@Endemiq2]

@@SimracingPopometer sorry I failed to mention I was talking about gt3's. Yeah testing body roll with the GTPs would be a challenge for sure

[@bintang7560]

There's another element regarding the discussion of whether LMD-H might take over from GT3 that wasn't mentioned, and that's looks. The road going versions of GT3 cars have been specifically styled to look as cool as possible, are very distinctive and there's probably some subconscious thing going that your average sim-racer desires to be driving the road variants of them for the status/ sex appeal etc, can't afford it, so the next best option is to drive them in the virtual world. I do think this is a major reason GT3's have been so popular, and unfortunately the LMD-H models look very samey, and there's none of the relatability of the GT3's, so my guess is that they might do well for a period, but won't overtake GT3's as the new most popular simracing class. Hope I'm wrong, cos I'm very burnt out with GT3.

[@art_connor_74]

LMDh actually has 2 different sub classes within it, GTP & LMh. GTP is the "IMSA" category, LMh is the "WEC" specific category. But both classes can race in both WEC & IMSA because they technically are the same cars with differences... They both follow the same aero rules and most of what you said here... but it's actually only GTP that need to use a LMP2 chassis. LMh are full prototype built by the manufacturer (Toyota, Ferrari, Peugeot...) And where supposed to be based in a road going supercar... But that got scrapped 😂 The other big difference is that GTP are entirely driven by the rear wheels. With much less dependents on hybrid power and can use the hybrid all the time. LMh on the other hand makes around 1/3rd of their power from the hybrid systems and the battery drives the front axles while the ICE drives the rear axle. And are NOT allowed to use hybrid power below 150kph (not 100% sure it's 150kph but it's something around there) The reason for that is so that the RWD GTP cars can actually keep up out of a turn 😂 LMh cars as a result of this have a much more powerful ICE that uses more power below 150kph and then cuts power to not exceed the 500kW power limit so yeah thanks FIA & ACO for a complicated mess of a category but LMh is just faster by default of the rule set 😂 Oh & LMh cars can also be non hybrid 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@blankfiile]

GTP and Hypercar are the same class where lmdh and lmh cars can both compete, just none do in gtp at the moment. when the aston comes they said they target IMSA too. there was never a road car homologation needed for the lmh regs, it was never in any rulebook. in the beginning there was only the prototype side of the ruleset, since aston lobbied there has been a secondary ruleset to allow road going hypercars with some extra freedoms into the lmh class. The manufacturers choosing to make a road going version of their car is just that, choice.

[@itshammertimeF1]

A bit of a miss for you not to test the RSS BMW as well since it will be used in the upcoming LFM season

[@mrspangles932]

And it's very good

[@SimracingPopometer]

i have it, but when judging games it's about officially licensed content

[@alessimunic]

Also the Glickenhaus in AC from URD, which is officially licensed, is amazing. One of best mods of the year IMO.

[@itshammertimeF1]

@@alessimunic Yeah, the Glickenhaus is amazing!

[@SimracingPopometer]

testing that now

[@axelode45]

Won't Le Mans Ultimate prevent AC2 from getting the license to these cars? That would be such a detriment to the appeal of AC2 :/

[@AyyLmaoZedong]

Kunos can license the cars like iRacing and AMS2 are doing, but they can't get the WEC license. So a fully fletched 24h LeMans event, be it singleplayer or multiplayer, is probably not possible. Of course, it depends on the specific agreement between WEC and Motorsport Games what other games can and can't do. But AFAIK, car brands are free to license their individual cars to other games

[@axelode45]

@@AyyLmaoZedong Oh yeah, that makes sense. Thanks! Hopefully Kunos will get access to adequate data from the teams and permission to scan most of the wec circuits too, as with ACC, even if they don't have the license.

[@bobeyes3284]

Companies only care about money. You grease the right palms, anything is possible. Shareholders don't give a single flying F about realism. They only care about money.

[@axelode45]

@@enricoazzoni2371 I mean if it's not just an Rfactor 2 reskin and has good quality cars and tracks, perhaps with an F1/wrc- style career mode, I think it could see some success. But yeah my expectation aren't very high either. It is motorsport games we're talking about here

[@SimracingPopometer]

Were they win is in bunching potentially a lot of players into the same classes and races. So even if there are only 500 people playing this regularly, you have full grids. If its functioning well and delivers a good experience without too much of a learning curve needed, it might be successful. I think the potential is there, but ultimately it depends on whether they deliver a good game, not just a good sim.

[@mh7711]

without watching the video, who wins? ams2 or iRacing?

[@SimracingPopometer]

depends what you want :P

[@ViktorJaneba]

Great video. Really liked it (I already cannot stand these stereotypical textbook confirmation bias AMS2 videos). I would recommend Stormgang Simulation Hypercars pack for rF2 too.

[@SimracingPopometer]

I'm just staying away from mods because it's a can of worms. too many mods, too much variety in quality. gotta stay with official content for now

[@qbertrtrtg]

AMS2: Slide to win iRacing: spin to win

[@youngyingyang]

If you feel AMS2 cars are too "planted" it's because you are using the "heavy rubbered" track setting. Just change that setting.

[@SimracingPopometer]

unfortunately they are still too slide tolerant. you can throw and wrestle them about without issues at any speed, grip level and aero setting. no matter the drift angle (almost) they always step back in line when they should crash.

[@BigDuke6ixx]

iRacing, imo, isn't progressive enough when it comes to losing grip. Some of the pro GT drivers have said this. Grand Prix Legends was the same and it seems to a hang over from that. Think about real GT3 which is a lot about pro-am and driveability at the expence of speed with TC and ABS but in iRacing you can't dial down the twichiness around the limit.

[@charliebeckey6269]

If you're a lord of the rings fan... The age of gt3 is over, the age of the lmdh has come 😁

[@bernardoberner4]

Why is it a good class? Cus prototypes are the best race cars ever

[@SimracingPopometer]

there are also prototypes that won't make for a good class

[@Sadokist]

Lmp2

[@SimracingPopometer]

matt :D people want to drive a ferrari. no matter if it sounds looks or behaves like one :D

[@Sadokist]

@@SimracingPopometer lmp2

[@SimracingPopometer]

@@Sadokist I don't even know if that's supposed to be derogatory to lmdhs or lmp2 or a praise :D

[@nuztuz903]

the vanwall isn't featured in this video tho

[@steelin666]

From my impression, iRacing AI past first lap seemed like a convoy driving around the track for player to practice on, not a real racing experience. No fights between AIs for player to try to take advantage of, nobody sniffing around, showing up in opponent's mirrors, acting like a real driver would, just a very sterile experience with AI competently reacting to the player and doing nothing else beyond that. Good to practice overtakes and defending with, but not to replicate the experience of an actual race, where you're not the main character and you never know what's going to happen.

[@SimracingPopometer]

its certainly not a full replacement for other humans, but are there any better AIs in other games?

[@steelin666]

@@SimracingPopometer I guess it's like with racing sims in general - each has their strenghts. AMS2 AI may not drive against the player as well, but it does produce better impression of a racing event, because it actually does stuff on their own, with varying results. There are fights for position, incidents, mechanical failures and so on. You can get a safety car that can make you think on your feet and adjust. So depending if you're looking for a demanding sparring partner or an authentic race experience, you will choose one or the other.

[@markc3456]

Also keep in mind that "iRacing AI" is not a static thing but is under constant development. In early 2023 they were quite race-y but rather mistake prone ("Oops! I forgot to brake!"). Then they really cleaned up their driving but they got a little boring. With the latest update, they became much more race-y again,with a reasonable number of believable mistakes, at least for most car classes (there are a few exceptions). So,if you haven't tried them since the Q1 update,give it another shot!

[@steelin666]

@@markc3456 I would guess it is being developed. Just like AI in AMS2, Raceroom and rFactor 2.