Understanding Simracing: YAW! Explained using Automobilista 2

[@SimracingPopometer]

Hope you like this style and can learn something from it. Let me know what else you'd love to learn. Editing this video took easily 12 hours plus recording. So I'd appreciate any contribution you can make, ideally by treating yourself as well!

[@danielfowler899]

Holly crap, 12 hours?!? Thanks for doing this. Is there anything that you would recommend to try and counter act this 'feature' of AMS2 within the car setup? Or is it just how it is... Thanks dude

[@Jurke92]

Great work!

[@SimracingPopometer]

i dont think there's anything you can do to the tire to reduce the allowed slip. You can pretend its not like that by making the car understeery, but its also not going to be very fast. Also im not saying its bad, its just different. It gives you a lot of control and choice, however there surely is this one fastest way like in any sim. I suggest to reduce the tire noise to almost 0. Cause that was really annoying as you're always so deep into the slip that the tire is permanently screaming. The tracking of and movement of the markers along the slip curve is a bit fiddly :D then matching everything with the voice over - standard stuff, but still needs a lot of tiny adjustments to be right.

[@Junker_1]

I like your channel very much and these explanations even more. I am looking forward to more stuff. It would be great if you are part of the Reiza beta team because you could be of real help to get them to be even better.

[@SimracingPopometer]

that is more a time limitation on my end ;)

[@psenodakh]

Thank you for the excellent video. I didn't know the "yaw" term. I used to just call it slip angle differences between the front and the rear, which determine if the car oversteers, understeers, or is neutral. You're the only person I've seen bringing this AMS2 thing up. Admittedly, I've been laconically critical of AMS2 on social media a few times for having this peculiar steering behaviour -- as a result of grip as a function of slip angle, and possibly of weight transfer -- which, IMHO, deviates from real-world physics too much in the forgiving direction. If I gradually open the throttle whilst turning -- in the general case, particularly with front-engine cars and with other sims, -- I should naturally experience some understeer. That was hardly the case when I first tried AMS2, I barely felt it (NOTE: a few years ago, before the updates). It felt like trail-throttling, quite unusual. It seems a bit arcadey to me and put me off. Perhaps it's been improved since then, though I can see that curve is still there. Knowing how slip-vs-grip curves visually look in performance racing books I've studied from, they have no such a large plateau.

[@SimracingPopometer]

can guarantee you the 1.6 patch will pretty much eradicate most of this slidey behavior.

[@illxet]

More than 1 AMS2 video from nils after a major update really says something that Reiza is on the right path. 😊

[@SimracingPopometer]

:copium:? ;)

[@cypcyphurra8755]

​@@SimracingPopometera lot of it 😂

[@illxet]

always lol@@SimracingPopometer

[@Puntatacosimuladores]

@@SimracingPopometerhopium

[@daifuco]

Nils in this video is basically saying that the cars don't behave very realistically. I enjoy the game a lot. Especially with old cars using manual shifters. But now at least we know why it feels like a "light weight" sim racer. Because it is!

[@Steelcast27]

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you for bringing these intricacies to light!. Additionally, the optimal pressure for the michelin tires centers around 1.98bar.and although the driving may seem more lenient at face value, as the pressures and tire temps evolve, the slip allowances for the front and rear do change as you continue through a race. So keeping the car as neutral as possible throughout a stint (for wear longevity) is crucial. Furthermore, abuse of oversteer via setup or driving style, as controllable as it may be, may lead to slower lap times as rear traction decreases, especially with low TC levels. But this is all the drivers choice. tldr: on a lap by lap comparison to other pacejka based sims, ams2 may seem more lenient, but as a stint/race evolves the difficulty/challenge his how the driver adapts to the car and conditions.

[@SimracingPopometer]

the races i did - agree short - i didnt see any noticable drop off or balance change. maybe something for another day :)

[@Steelcast27]

@@SimracingPopometer there may room for more refinement in this area. the GT3G2 tire is admittedly a very durable model considering it has to adapt to a very wide range of track conditions. For example, IMSA rarely sees track temps lower than 40c, whereas in AMS2 that can vary much more widely. So, adhering to a particular single tire rule set, for authenticity purposes, requires even more leniency. Furthermore, most races are run with default fuel (light) in a sprint race type format, where tire deg doesn't really become a factor, although it exists. It can be muted even further. Plus, you're an excellent driver and great drives can drive through these types of things with sheer experience and natural ability. Anecdotally, most drivers new to AMS2 fail to consider this factor altogether though, can't adapt quickly enough and in racing situations i.e. in traffic, driving off-line, asking the car to do more than solo lapping, (not to mention general mistakes) it can raise the difficulty factor. Going too far and having the tire fail more often can lead to more mistakes, and mistakes in a MP scenario tend to collect other innocent bystanders which isn't that fun for anyone. At the end of the day, your video is brilliant though. Every bit of data or observation is informative, especially from those with a well tuned eye for things. Thank you for that.

[@nicklibby3784]

​​@@SimracingPopometer I did a "full length f1 race" but with half the amount of laps and 2x accelerated tire wear & 2x accelerated fuel consumption. That way I could get the full F1 race experience in half the time just to test out how pit stops and tire wear and stuff worked in long distance races. And he is right, its a huge factor in your race outcime and massively effects car handling. I did a race with every 1991 F1 car, every 1988 F1 car and every 1986 F1 car. And if you don't manage your tires and really throw the car around - it will be faster at first - but very quickly you will start to lose LOTS of time, as so much grip will be lost. Not to mention it becomes much more difficult to handle. AMS 2 is pretty hardcore when it comes to tire wear. I feel like it happens quite a bit faster than AC. It really punishes you for oversteering and understeering, but if you drive well and avoid understeering and oversteering then your tire wear will be quite minimal and it can give you quite a big advantage against the other cars whos tires are worn later in the race. I feel like AMS 2 rewards you for managing the tires a bit more than other games, and also punishes you for abusing the tires a bit more than other games do. You should test it out on a long distance race, even if its just a half race with 2x tire wear acceleration & 2x fuel usage acceleration. You'll quickly realize this is NOT a sim where tire management is just a small after thought and not too big of a deal, like some other sims are. Whether you abuse those tires or nurse them like a baby it will make a massive difference to your speed and overall race. Sometimes, you might even have to do a whole extra pitstop if you go hard on the tires, although depending on the race and car type it might be faster to do the extra pitstop and go hard on your tires. It depends how fast and how well you can drive with worn tires, because it makes a massive difference in handling and becomes much more difficult to control the car. Its a high risk high reward thing. Although some cars you're better off just not pushing, especially the "backmarker" or "midfield" cars, they might be slow enough that you dont really have a chance at gaining a advantage when pushing really hard and doing a extra pitstop.

[@Leynad778]

"So keeping the car as neutral as possible throughout a stint (for wear longevity) is crucial." Sorry, but that's IMO not the case anymore and the reason why I rarely launch AMS2 these days. Tyre-wear and -heat has just ridiculous low impact on grip since a while now and the decreasing amount of fuel usually compensates it anyway to a point the fastest lap is often the last one in a race, no matter what the tyre-indicator shows. It was a bit exaggerated before , but even the new Forza Motorsport is way less forgiving when overdriving cars nowadays. I don't blame Reiza for going this simcade-direction and seems to work in terms of popularity, but as an experienced sim-racer the handling is just not delicate enough to please me.

[@Steelcast27]

@@Leynad778 sometimes its good to take a break and come back at a later time if you so choose. the dev lifecycle is far from over, and although certain changes may seem linear and permanent, they are not. in other words, appropriate long term developments may result in a side or backwards step in certain areas, but indeed are a better approach overall.

[@browsing_just]

I have a thought that has been bouncing around my head, and after watching this video, I thought I'd throw it out there. One thing that has been accepted over the past decade is that driving a real car around a track is easier than taking the same car around it in iracing. I've been thinking that AMS2 is probably more of a sim than people give it credit for. I believe this is due to the grip curve explained on this video. When I race in AMS2, it's personally the closest to the real thing for me. I've been driving fast cars, had numerous Japanese sports bikes and have completed offensive fast driving courses in the military for the past 22 years. I run a fanatec dd. Now on the contrary, iRacing just kills me. I can not drive the cars there fast as much as I'd like to. I want to gain rank etc.. but driving in it is just so foreign to me. I understand that if I put the time in, I'd learn the limits and technique required to be fast in that sim but for the moment I can't gel with it. ACC is better for me than iRacing by a country mile. I'm not the fastest in that but when I study the replays, I can overtly see that it's my track knowledge and not my driving. RF2 is better again and I feel like the cars behave as I'd expect them to and the force feedback in RF2 is, imo the best around. And finally AMS2 and the point to my long-winded rant. I believe that little bit of forgiveness in the grip curve connects the missing feeling of actually being in the car. I think that matters a lot. I think that's why I'm sub par at iracing but can pull reasonable fast laps in other sims I feel more connected to. That ffb feeling in rf2 as you run a little hot into a corner under full brake is priceless. It completely fills the missing real life feeling in my head. I don't really know. I just feel as though the more strict a developer is with the real life physics, the worse the sim becomes past a point as there is no way to replicate the physical feeling of the car in order to mitigate some of the factors of driving at the limit. I've never tried a motion rig so that might work. Just my 2 cents. In all honesty, it's probably being shite at iracing that sent me down this path.

[@SimracingPopometer]

and yet the truth probably is stil somewhere in between. you're certainly not alone with your iracing perception ;)

[@dc-vw4qm]

AMS2 is hated because it is clearly going to be the best sim and others cant handle they didnt invest in it early and that it shows they never understood car physics to begin with

[@SimracingPopometer]

@@dc-vw4qm why are you so angry? :D the "issue" with ams2 is certainly not people being unable to jump over their shadow

[@simeonlinke3437]

@@dc-vw4qmAMS2 is far from the most hated Sim. Have you heard of Rennsport? Also why would someone who is trying to have a realistic sim (most regular simracers) hate on a good sim because its good? It doesnt make any sense. We are all looking for a great driving experience and if AMS2 would truly deliver that there would be no shortage of positive media. But in the current state its just not on the same level as Sims that are further in their development cycle. It has to be allowed to say that and critizise aspects of the Sim that are not up to the greatest standard currently.

[@toddwasson3355]

@Alfish83 I agree completely. Real tires are generally much more forgiving than sim racers (and many sim developers) think. Many tires don't have any drop off after the peak at all, and some even continue climbing in certain situations for awhile after the nominal peak. Some do have some drop off but it's generally pretty mild. iRacing definitely overdoes it on many of the cars, or at least did years ago when I last drove it and actually measured and plotted the curves via the telemetry system. In lateral force vs slip angle, some of their tires dropped off more in the dry than real tires do in the wet, which is why real drivers often complain that when sliding the car it handles like it's on a slick road. They're right. Everything these guys said was spot on: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWiUYYupnLiradk&ab_channel=ASJ There are some internal details of the iRacing model I know about but can't discuss (NDA). Suffice it to say that if sim racers knew certain details about how a couple of important areas of the model actually worked, they'd have to eat their words in a real hurry and would be embarrassed. Things are bound to improve with the hiring of Terrance Groening if David Kaemmer can humble himself long enough to let Terrance do his thing. Dave would have to admit that every thought that goes through his head isn't always correct, and judging from a four day long argument I had with him in his alpha forum about an aspect of his tire model (even with a NASCAR Goodyear tire engineer on my side), it's a real stretch. We'll see what happens though. Maybe he's getting close to wanting to retire and wouldn't mind handing over the reigns to others. They've been doing a lot of interesting hiring lately. So things may get a lot better with iRacing somewhere down the road. The folks who think iRacing is the best thing ever on the physics side are out of their minds though. I'd put it at the very bottom of the pile, not even near the middle, at least the versions I ran years ago.

[@TheCameltotem]

I love how in depth your videos are and how you cover stuff no one else does. Keep up the work!

[@pavelbratchenko3885]

Damn, i couldn't get my head around AMS 2 physics after getting used to ACC and this video explains it all. Thanks a lot! Hope I'll get better with this sim now :)

[@PeWersi]

This is probably the most important video for simracing games comparison nowadays. Helped me alot to understand things. Thank you Nils! 💯

[@perludierende_praesumtion]

The slip canvas diagram explains why the game is so much fun and people can drive it out of the box. It is too forgiving imo. This might be the reason why high downforce cars can be saved too easy as well. The GT3 times overall are just too fast. But the main reason I use iracing, rf2, ac and acc is the missing competition in ams. I think it could be my fav sim when they improve MP or LFM support it.

[@SimracingPopometer]

it feels rewarding to drive indeed, and also a tad too easy - agree! the saving of high df cars got better, there definitely is point where you've gone too far, but you need to force it I feel

[@hansolo631]

There's another part to it too, and it's how nice the road feels and the FFB in general in AMS2. I "main" iracing these days, but fuck I wish it felt like ams2

[@Nicolas_Cage_Bees]

I agree 100% the GT3 times are too fast. Me, a complete shitter with no real skill to speak of who plays on controller can dip into the 2:17s on AMS2 at Spa with the new GT3s and that's even taking into account the fact that time starts at the farther back line compared to ACC so the lap doesn't start at the same point in both games. Taking those same cars in ACC to Spa, I haven't managed to get out of the 2:20s yet since I've been going back and forth to compare though I did come close once but I lost it on the exit of the Bus Stop and ended up with like a 2:20.2 or something.

[@shaunsheppard3936]

If they could sort out a decent multi-player competition system, I think AMS2 would attract way more racers.

[@SimracingPopometer]

@@shaunsheppard3936 for sure, yeah. i think its undervalued how important MP is.

[@Kuolema1337]

Great topic ! I was just talking about this in the comments of another video. As long as games don't have a 100% realistic tyre model for all cars, they will have to chose a design philosophy a go with it. Personally I don't really like how iRacing feels because going over the peak is punished too heavily, which would be unrealistic on a lot of cars, and makes us think about every input instead of reacting to how the tyres behave. And as a rally and drift fan there is definitely zero fun to be found in that type of driving. I don't know why everyone takes iRacing as point of reference for ffb quality and physics. The FFB is basic and the physics are arbitrarily rigid. That's a choice, nothing more nothing less.

[@LithFox]

Because we know their methodology for how they've come to create it. David Tucker goes into massive detail not just about the testing methodology, the tools he uses (and creates) to find the various values for the wheels themselves (eg: A lot of wheels differ in how they provide FFB outside of what the sims themselves provide to the wheels) and the lack of centralized data around FFB in racing wheels caused by a lack of API for it that standardizes it. That's why. Like, the developer of iRacing's FFB spends a lot of time on the forums talking with the users and even accepts when someone can show where his data may be incorrect. Simple as that. As far as the physics being rigid, I find that hilarious considering how a majority of sims clamp their higher end of responses. Rather than allowing a physics bug to happen and then making microadjustments down the road (see: iRacing allowing cars to launch into space), they just clamp at a max speed and cause all physics responses to sit under that clamp, particularly in regards to collisions. not sure if you're just using outdated information but the cars are quite forgiving now on the NDM (which changes track collision with the tire a bit) and NTMv7+ (they stopped numbering them), unless you just setup your car for max speed and minimal stability....

[@Kuolema1337]

@@LithFox Of course iRacing's model is extremely realistic but as long as it's not 100% it will always come down to taste, and iRacing tends to be on the rigid side compared to other sims that are also extremely realistic in their own way.

[@toddwasson3355]

@Xerxes1337 I agree completely. Years ago I spent a lot of time in the iRacing forums posting about their tires out of frustration. Their public version's telemetry didn't include slip angles, so I wrote some special functions that calculated them from yaw rate and so forth in Motec closely enough to make the point. So I was able to post slip angle vs lateral force curves that weren't entirely accurate, but close enough to make points and illustrate problems. I don't know how iRacing is today, this was many, many years ago, but I found and posted many of these tire graphs from many cars there that dropped off a ridiculous amount after the peak. A couple percent over a large range is fine, but 20% is absolutely not what a real tire does. Tires do actually drop off quite steeply like that in the wet though, which to me explains all the complaining even from pro racers about how many of the cars feel like they're driving in the wet when they're not. At one point I was doing similar testing in iRacing on the skidpad with the NASCAR vehicle in conjunction with telemetry. It was ridiculous. I'd go from softest possible rear springs and stiffest front, then reverse it, and would hardly even see a difference in steady state cornering slip angles or anything else either visually or in the telemetry. In my own sim work, changes that big would have absolutely transformed the vehicle handling from "pretty good" to "undrivable". In iRacing it hardly mattered. That was the last time I drove iRacing. I eventually tried AC and loved it. Had driven iRacing for years, but finally just let the sub lapse and never went back.

[@khalidadisa2786]

A lot of people that argue about "sims" dont even know the science of cars or even how to setup cars in the first place, and its something i have been seeing more and more of when people speak online

[@dinonuggies2276]

You dont need to in a lot of cases. You dont need to be an engineer to feel the diffrence between sims and wich ones are more or less realistic

[@khalidadisa2786]

@@dinonuggies2276 realistic compared to what? The cars we've never driven before?

[@toddwasson3355]

@@khalidadisa2786 Exactly. Hardly anybody knows really anything about this stuff. Ask a sim racer for ISO test plots for the real vehicle's understeer gradient curves and transient response or MMM diagrams compared to the sim, and they'll have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[@dinonuggies2276]

@@khalidadisa2786 how many cars do you need to drive to realize mariokart 8 deluxe drifting and hopping isnt what real cars do? If it was so hard to tell nobody would be selling their kidneys for iracing

[@Puntatacosimuladores]

@@dinonuggies2276you missed the point by several miles

[@Theoloop]

Great Analysis, I love to see an honest and in depth review for ams2 characteristics like this. I've been a big fan of the sim for a long while and its been my primary one. The playfulness on the edge of grip makes it special and fun which I enjoy. Personally the edginess of iRacing isn't fun for me as you have to concentrate more on driving under the limit vs at it, but they're improving as well with each update. AMS2 is more forgiving than the rest for sure, but to really extract the most pace out of cars it can be just as punishing as the rest for a variety of reasons and situations.

[@Sirius-qr4vu]

To add to this discussion: Joseph Newgarden, a real-life driver, especially dislikes the peaky slip curve of iRacing because it's unrealistic compared to the real world (his opinion). Here he explains it in a short video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6C7aoBortqBiqM&ab_channel=AustinOgonoski

[@SimracingPopometer]

yeah thanks! was indeed posted in another response already and didn't know he made those remarks. however watching the footage you can see that while the real car has more room to play, its still very snappy and crisp and if he wouldn't correct at light speed the car would still go. thats whats missing in the sims i feel: losing and regaining grip around the peak very suddenly in both directions. games either are too lenient around the peak like ams2 or too brittle like iracing

[@Jivesauce]

@@SimracingPopometer I know this is an old comment so hopefully it is ok if I reply, but it's worth pointing out that those comments were from before the most recent major tire model revision for iRacing that significantly improved it in this regard also.

[@MrEDET]

What a fantastic video. In discussions it's always so hard to describe what feels weird and completely off in AMS2, next time I'll link this video ;)

[@SlowBloke123]

Absolutely superb analysis and perfectly communicated. Im a big AMS2 fan (offline racer) and this explains exactly where my main issue is in the handling that I could never explain. Still a fan but do wish the window is smaller - I just dont like the rear stepping out so much on some cars - they made massive positive changes to that before with the physics corrections but I would still like more :). Thank you for this vid !

[@SuperAcaoGeek]

Great analysis Nils. Certainly helps a lot to understand why the cars behave the way they behave. It's also good, at least to me, that developers can fine tune some aspects of the simulation to get in line with their vision and experience with cars. And it also amazes me that, despite the fact that Sim players like and seek for different titles and experiences, the majority of them also want some level of familiarity between them specifically on the physics department. Anyways, good that we have people like you on the community, someone that don't try to fit things just as "good" or bad, but judge and analyze it by what they bring to the table and how it differ from the competition. Keep up the good work. Cheers!

[@gomezthechimp1116]

I read an interesting interview with Alex Hodgkinson who is responsible for car handling and ai in Raceroom, in which he explained the difference between 'physics', and 'handling', which are two connected but entirely different components of car design in sims. I believe he was saying that physics describes the way that suspension etc. works, which is largely down to mathematical equations, but handling is the way those physics translate to your driving experience through the tyre model, and that the tyre model is what makes one sim different to the next, if all other factors are roughly equal.

[@toddthezondalover645]

That's why RaceRoom is a banger. Great sounds too

[@lmelaci]

Great video, Nils! Commenting here for engagement purpose. This is a really fine explanation to why some people might feel AMS2 arcadey while others have much more fun. You really did a great work in this video!. Keep up the good work!

[@SimracingPopometer]

thank you for purposeful commenting - not all heroes wear capes :)

[@danielfowler899]

Ahhh, this explains why i dont find cars a challenge to drive in AMS2 (relative to other sims). Which is also why people might say that AMS2 is more arcadey than, say Iracjng, ACC, AC or rF2. The cars have got better over time, hopefully they can further improve the game.

[@MrBreakthompson]

It misses weight shift severly. That alone would make such a vital difference.

[@Glimiril]

Once again Nils, a fantastic video, making the complex more understandable. Thank you. I hope the community embrace such videos and sees them as positives even though pointing out some of the failings and why, but for the accomplishments that these games have achieved for such in-depth videos can be made about them. Here is a suggestion video for you, one that may cause a challenge both in diplomacy and how to go about doing it. Braking in different Sims how they vary, which implement ABS more accurately, how the application of pressure and results in feedback and results differ from sim to sim. It's a topic that I have not seen done without bias and I am not sure if it can be done at all, but if there is anyone that will lookup and ask questions to get to an answer I think it might be you. Anyway even if you cannot or see a way of doing it, I really do love these informative videos and seeing you embrace the inner teacher in yourself too.

[@Django45]

I have never heard this characteristic described as YAW before. I always hear the term "slip angle", meaning how much the car tyres slip compared to the direction of travel. Some slip brings more grip. too much makes you lose time and speed and the grip falls off.

[@toddwasson3355]

He's talking about the slip angle of the car rather than the tires. In vehicle dynamics lingo it's called "sideslip angle." Saying "yaw angle" is probably fine here because it's clear from the video context what he's talking about. In any regard, there's not really much you can glean from sideslip angle other than comparing it between two cars at the same speed and lateral acceleration to see which one probably has stiffer rear tires. It says nothing about understeer or oversteer at all so isn't terribly useful. At the tangent speed of a vehicle, the body slip angle is 0 anyway. Above that the car is nose in, below it it's nose out. So yes, it's better to talk about the tire slip angles than the body slip angle.

[@TheCameltotem]

You really hit the nail on this one. This is just the thing why people feel like you could just turn the wheel more and it never understeers, because its yawing all the time instead of understeering. I feel like its gotten better over the months but why dont you think they just reduce the slip angle? would that be a "easy" solution?

[@SimracingPopometer]

because the graph like i showed it doesn't exist like that as a source in the game. its only a result of a lot of calculations. so you'd have to change coefficients here and there, but it all has ramifications in other areas - and in the end they'd need to be unhappy with the tire to begin with

[@TheCameltotem]

@@SimracingPopometer Right! Probably quite hard to get to that point but like I said I feel like they are making step towards that since it has gotten better over the months/years. Anyways, cant thank you enough for showcasing this in a easy way and I'm happy to have it explained what ive been feeling for a long time.

[@browsing_just]

Thanks for the informative video mate

[@SimracingPopometer]

appreciated mate!

[@nukedogger86]

Can we just take a moment and appreciate how beautiful this game is, and how sinister that 911 looks with the red headlights?

[@pamo5900]

Got recomended this by YT, love technical stuff about the yaw, gonna watch more vids. IRacing driver here :)

[@SimracingPopometer]

welcome aboard! :)

[@pamo5900]

@@SimracingPopometer ty, also get a better mic :) , this one has a bad resolution on highs

[@pamo5900]

or maybe tweak some settings

[@SimracingPopometer]

@@pamo5900 charming.

[@pamo5900]

@@SimracingPopometer my eng not the best, not wanted to be rude. Its just hard to keep the focus listening a long video with that sound.(i got studio speakers)

[@NielsHeusinkveld]

Hmm I disagree a bit with the way most people look at slip curves. The slip curve does not exist! It changes shape and size all the time. Sure it is easy to visualize it the way you show it, but when you're cornering and accelerating, you're asking grip in two directions from the rear tires. Even with a 100% flat slip curve, you can still get an iRacing type spin if the acceleration grip takes too much cornering grip away. I tried to explain this here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hXusp5p8pLudpbs Acceleration grip will not only take some cornering grip away, it will also move the peak slip angle to a larger value.

[@SimracingPopometer]

No doubt this isn't correct, it's just a representation how the driving feels in an attempt to make it relatable. So for more detail everyone, watch the more in depth Niels - he also has a letter more :)

[@fastforward7670]

Guys, join forces and do a podcast about this topic. I‘m sure the community will love it! Include Aris as well 😊

[@Leynad778]

The question is: How much is accurate of this acceleration grip-loss. AMS IMO always felt way too unforgiving in this regard not accounting for the tyres to flex and increasing the tyre-contact-patch due to weight-transfer and torque which is the reason why Dragsters can accelerate properly without just spinning tyres at the start. AMS2 is too forgiving I guess because the tyres flex too much and you can't even provoke the typical wheel-spin when accelerating out of the pitbox. In earlier versions (prior 1.3 or 1.2, can't remember) the tyres were very temperature sensitive and underdriving the car the trick to survive more than a couple of laps. I won quite a few online-races by just waiting till the guys in front failed because their hotlap-technique only worked for 3-4 laps. The heat-sensitivity was too much to be accurate, but Reiza went into the opposite direction and even excessive tyre-heat and -wear doesn't slow you down these days, but is a benefit regarding laptimes.

[@myweirdtaste8090]

Great vid! Best source for substantial insights - again! I just hope Reiza fine tunes it a bit into a less forgiving direction. Then it would be gold.

[@heelandtoeknee]

And another one that made me, not wiser. but more aware of things! 💪 also being full aware of my place in the „food chain“, I can use that newly gained knowledge to make my skill set grow. Thanks Nils, have a great weekend. 👋

[@Ben_LaBroca]

Really fascinating Nils - bringing technical understanding to clarify why we feel what we feel in AMS 2 is super helpful and interesting. Thanks! Is it your understanding that this a feature of the sim that can be changed and improved?

[@SimracingPopometer]

pretty sure everything can be improved if they find this to be an area that needs improving. it has already improved with the last couple patches. i cant judge if its right or wrong, certainly on the far end of the spectrum in terms of leniency.

[@Ben_LaBroca]

@@SimracingPopometer yeah I’ve enjoyed and been encouraged by the recent updates too - thanks again for the video!

[@mikecroshaw9233]

@@Ben_LaBroca I think it will probably get a bit less lenient in 1.6. But it's not that Reiza are unhappy with it now, they seem to like that it's a little more lenient. Probably the GT3s are on the more extreme end of that, some of the other cars are a lot less forgiving. TBH I'd rather they focussed their attention on the MP now rather than more physics revisions.

[@vrj0]

Excellent Nils, thanks for this really helpful explanation. AMS2 is worth the attention.

[@ScholliUlz]

Meanwhile, I think, that every sim on the market has its pros and cons. I'm sim racer since a couple of years now. But only one sim costs as much as a real (used) car if you want to buy every piece of content. And the funniest thing: If you stop paying, you're not even allowed to use these cars anymore. 😅

[@CHAMPIONJOE]

Awesome Video Nils! It's explaining what I'm also experiencing but just could but into words, because of lack of knowledge! Thanks for that!

[@SimracingPopometer]

if only i had your editing skills 😅

[@CHAMPIONJOE]

@@SimracingPopometer Haha 😅 I think the editing was alright! Definitely got the point across and kept people watching! Maybe just don't swap shirts mid-way trough next time xD

[@SimracingPopometer]

then i'd be wearing the same 2 days in a row ;)

[@WarmRed77]

@@SimracingPopometer Ich glaube damit können wir leben....😉

[@captainaustria95]

Really well made video and insightfull explanations. I was really curious about your laptime though for comparisons sake ❤

[@SimracingPopometer]

1:43.6 in porsche 1:43.8 in BMW i think both with 30l - choose whatever rubber, they didnt make a difference to me for whatever reason

[@akuzin13]

Hi Nils! Thank you for this video, very well explained.

[@blankfiile]

The thing is though, it is faster on ams2 to have a little slip angle for 1 lap yes. but dont do that in a endurance race, your tires will be mush as you can already see the tire going down on your clips.

[@SimracingPopometer]

will test that, but so far havent had any issues with tire wear/drop off in all my driving

[@Theoloop]

The V8 Supercar could be good to test with that, or Group C, simply cause their tires are soft so you can see the results of over driving easier. The new gt3 and lmdh cars seem to have fairly hard compounds and wear is minimal. Tire temps also take a huge tole, abuse the rear and if you cant manage the temps the cars are much less forgiving. @@SimracingPopometer

[@Vindisify]

Another great video, I love topics like this when it's backed up by facts. All the guesswork and opinions I read/watch everywhere else can be tiresome. Thanks Nils

[@tarushdei]

This explains what I felt when giving the 992 a shot in AMS2. It felt a lot different from other 992 GT3 R's in other games. I'm still a M4 GT3 main (and still fastest in AMS2 as well) but I really like how the 992 feels in the game.

[@FG_SIMRACING]

Daniel Morad is a real GT3 driver and he is also busy with simracing and he has said couples points regarding realism and which sim is currently the “best” etc…

[@SimracingPopometer]

Well aware. Though, it's a trap listening to single sample real drivers, because you have as many different opinions from real drivers as you get from simracers. There is a large skill spread among real drivers, too. Not every real driver qualifier to answer. Don't glorify real drivers - many can only afford it and that's the only thing that sets them apart from a lot of other, more talented people (not saying morad falls in this category). Real life situations also have a much larger bandwidth of situations, grip levels, tires - there are a lot more influential parameters. Drive the car on one day and then the other, you can have two different behaviors, just because something changed. All sims work with data sets: the problem is all data sets differ so also the result in the sim differs. There isn't that single one behavior across the board everything has to mimic. There's variety and thats why its also so hard to assess and replicate.

[@simeonlinke3437]

Unfortunately Morad talks a bit too much for the amount of knowledge he actually has about simracing. Its usually better to take what he says with a grain of salt.

[@steveh4264]

Great video, much appreciated. I tend to stay well clear of online sim racing arguments...tiring and repetitive come to mind. I'm no professional racing driver, but I do have HPDE and track day experience and have pushed cars to their limit (and a couple times beyond). What I look for in a game/sim is less about matching up everything to reality and more about, do I get that seat-of-your-pants feeling when trying to hustle around a track. rF2 has satisfied this desire best for me for a number of years now, but AMS2 is getting real close these days. Regardless of the endless "discussions" about realism, AMS2 delivers on the adrenaline factor very well. Part of that priority on my end is that I have yet to put time in a sim that captured the real thing even remotely close to real life. How could you? So much of driving is done through sensations, forces and feelings which are absent from sim racing...even with motion simulation, VR, seatbelt tensioning and every other awesome gadget you can integrate into your sim racing experience these days. The same logic can be applied to FFB as far as I'm concerned. Realistic feedback is great, but great FFB (subjectively speaking) transmits additional information that would normally be absent or at least muted with a real steering wheel in your hands. It's helping to fill the aforementioned void of sensory information about what the car and your body are doing. End of the day, folks should enjoy what's enjoyable to them and get off the "stop liking what I don't like" train.

[@simon_s2318]

Danke Nils, mal wieder ein sehr informatives Video!

[@truderides2243]

Ams2 is fun and to me thats whats i like I drive rf2 aswell and can feel the difference in the way the cars handle between the sims but honestly both sim are great fun to race in i used to drive acc but after playing rf2 and ams2 i cant go back. The following is an extract from the developer on the reiza forum, " What I find a bit frustrating with this ongoing complaint is that people making it seem to miss the fact this is (IMO) a minor downside to what is otherwise the most organic & engaging tire model of all sim racing with the possible exception of a really good rF2 tire. Reality just isn´t a peaky / front-limited tire model ACC style even if that is what many sim racers have become convinced it to be - opinions may and do vary but I´d rather drive a AMS2 tire from two years ago than to be always just having to slow down the car until the frontend responds on corner entry and then just mind the throttle application on exit so it doesn´t snap away with little to no warning - that isn´t just unrealistic, it´s plain boring. If that is your expectation of what AMS2 physics should eventually evolve to I can already spare you the waiting - it won´t happen because we don´t believe that is accurate. The options here are either to adapt so you can enjoy it as it is, or move on to the sims that more accurately match your expectation, because insisting on the argument won´t win it. Everyone is welcome to share this nugget of physics development feedback wherever you feel may be of merit BTW - just because the physics don´t satisfy everyone´s perception of reality it doesn´t mean the physics are necessarily off, and it´s only fair that users know this is how we feel about AMS2 physics as they are now so they don´t waste their time expecting a change that won´t come."

[@F2020uk]

Awesome video and brilliantly explained

[@augustodufloth1578]

Just a correction. Yaw angle is NOT sideslip angle. The sideslip angle a tire “sees” needs to be corrected by the yaw velocity (rad/s) and the lever arm w.r.t. the cg position (and steering if steered). Very rarely the cg sits perfectly in the centroid of the four tires. One simply cannot input the same yaw angle in the slip curve for all tires at the same time. Not even per axle. Each tire has its own slip angles which are NOT the yaw angle. Just a technicality. Apart from that, excellent video

[@SimracingPopometer]

yeah I didn't claim otherwise. educational videos - especially when aiming at perception - need to break away from numbers. what you said is probably true, but out of the 16000 people watching it 5 will understand (or care), especially when using abbreviations. You need to speak the language of the audience, not that of the professor. I try to make things approachable, I try to translate and give new perspectives to something that's otherwise inaccessible.

[@polqqqz1098]

To be honest, since I started riding about 4m ago :) my first title was ACC, I don't like the subscription system in iracing, but I love LFM. I bought AMS2 because everyone praised the graphics and also Lemans dlc :) since I jumped into AMS2 I can't play ACC, of ​​course I think that ACC has a better reflection of tire wear and grip, but I have more pleasure as a casual player in Ams2 if If only there was LFM in ams2, I wouldn't play other titles :)

[@SimracingPopometer]

lfm was investigating this already, but so far it's not stable enough in AMS2 because the MP is not yet developed far enough

[@Endemiq2]

loved the video and the editing was great too. one question I have left does it impact tires longevity

[@SimracingPopometer]

if you go too far, yes. but not the way i was driving fast. you can see that front and rear wear are pretty similar on these laps, even if its lap 4-5 already on the run

[@roccothamanoidis]

Indicated tire wear changed dramatically in 1.5.3 (few month ago), where lockups now really degrade your tyre indication in the HUD. However what you feel may differ highly from car to car, as different cars use different shapes, sizes and also - which is crazy - different tyre models. So a half worn tyre on a GroupC will feel different from a half worn GT4 tyre. I love those details.

[@kevanhandley7521]

Hi Nils great vid although bordering on a little too technical for me😮 but much appreciated. Do you find you need to make much adjustments to the set ups? Also have you done anything with the FFB settings as I believe there is quite a big topic on the AMS 2 forum about it?

[@SimracingPopometer]

i think the FFB topic with ams2 comes from most people driving with low end wheels. on a Direct Ddrive there really is no issue whatsoever. I just use default+ with effects on 30 or so.

[@kevanhandley7521]

@@SimracingPopometer I have a Simucube Pro, so will try it on the default +, thanks

[@darkojovanoski9751]

at the end of the day, most important thing is how we feel behind the wheel in our limited time to spare. this is where Ams2 lack the feeling of security about what car is doing. for me ultimate test of how physics work is first corner of Brands Hatch. Ams2 falls here on the test. that feeling after entering the corner is weird. don't want to compare other simulators but on rFactor 2 or Raceroom I know exactly what the car is doing becouse is logical and predictable. in one occasion during driving and exiting from corner I spinned becouse I changed to upper gear in Ams2 which is maybe setup issue but cannot happen in real life, that can happen if I change to lower gear and revs go wild but here that is unacceptable. Ams2 has everything on paper but on reality that falls apart when playing it. I am afraid some stuff simply can't work on Madness engine, I never doubt in Reiza but after 4 years of development and having the sim in this state it seems that some stuff can only be polished but not changed.

[@wiegraf9009]

Driving the 992 I felt like the tyres never gripped up, but the truth is that the front and back are both at max grip on the plateau moving around there but communicating very little compared to ACC because they aren't moving on and off a peak! Very interesting!

[@kenhiew2900]

Im a new sub to your channel and i specifically subbed because i like your inde depth videos. Good job and keep it up

[@SimracingPopometer]

hard earned sub man :D

[@kenhiew2900]

:D 👍👏👏👏. LOL

[@charliebeckey6269]

Shout out to Nils for making this! For anyone wanting more detail, this is a great reference on concepts of vehicle control. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJfcqZ-sederaa8si=8ktXWWmL39F1p4UE. Really helped me to understand what's happening at the limit

[@lugs118]

What I want to know is have they chosen to model it that way or is there a technical limitation? It feels unlike any other sim except for the Project cars series.

[@SimracingPopometer]

best to read the long development updates on the forum for that.

[@pizzipaul1]

What an awesome video... totally explains the most criticized aspect of AMS2. From top to bottom, between the cars, the graphics, the VR performance, it is my favorite sim. But im new to sim racing and the last thing I want is any "assisted" driving. So ive been driving a lot in AC and iracing just for the realism. Does anyone else think that if Reiza can sharpen this yaw curve, it could become the best sim out there? Are there any plans to do that? I played with a GT3 car in iracing and the FFB felt like nothing to me. ACC feels terrible to me and is worthless in VR. AC is awesome but does not look quite as good in VR. RF2 feels great if you want lame graphics. But the fact is, there are so many people NOT using AMS2 because of exactly what you have explained here....includes me to some extent. Is Reiza going to address this?

[@shaunsheppard3936]

I guess the question is, is it really assisted driving? or are other SIMS simply implementing a different take on the driving experience. I don't know the answer sadly. My feeling is, if they can narrow and sharpen it up a little bit, and then sort out multi-player, then AMS2 will take off and put itself up there with iRacing and ACC. If you've got limited time and can only commit to a single SIM, and you want to complete online, AMS2 isn't really even an option at the minute.

[@pizzipaul1]

@shaunsheppard3936 since watching this video I've gotten back in AMS2 some and it's really fun. I would just like to think my reflexes being tested as would be in a real car....or another sim. Another thing about AMS2 that bothers me is how the grass is like ice. It's like if you go off track the race is over and it's so annoying trying to get back on track. I can't believe that would be a hard fix.

I guess you tried CM CSP Pure in AC VR right? Im sentive to lower fps, so AC is the only game i can barely play on rtx3080 on reverb g2. It looks pretty good. I tried AMS2 only shortly and while i agree it looks better, its not that much better than tuned AC. Im planning to try AMS2 and ACC with rtx4080super. I really hope that i can run 90fps.

[@Daz5Daz]

I imagine in a long distant future we will end in a position when all sims feel the same - I'll be long dead by then........🤣

[@daifuco]

I would love a video like this analysing Forza Motorsport 23. Because to me it feels like they have toned up the car physics from earlier games. I wonder where it stands in the sim racing spectre.

[@SimracingPopometer]

doubt it stacks up. its already a simcade at best by design. wont invest time in that unfortunately

[@hubblesphere]

At the end of the day these tire characteristics can and do exist. If someone wanted a ton of slip in a race tire they could develop it and it would be really fun to drive! So people should stop worrying so much about realism. Real race tires sometimes suck and have to be managed from lap 1. Sim racers wouldn’t enjoy that “realism” very much.

[@wiegraf9009]

There used to be a ton of slip in race tyres before radials were introduced. However in our current time everyone runs radial tyres so it's a strange way for the cars to behave.

[@stefanschuchardt5734]

AMS dont need to be a perfect simulation. We have enough options for exactly that. Most of us simrace just for fun. If AMS becomes the bridge between Gran Turismo/Forza and iRacing/ACC, I'm in! I am one of the many people who have ALOT of fun with AMS2! I'm liking very much what Reiza is producing. It looks gorgeous. Runs well. VR support.

[@SimracingPopometer]

i didnt criticize it :) I really am just explaining where the feeling stems from

[@stefanschuchardt5734]

I'm talking to all the people who can't decide if need AMS to be a perfect simulation of driving cars. Sorry to hijack your video 😂 Quality content 👌

[@viunetwork5142]

tell me why I should buy the dlc when a gt3 Porsche is included? is there a difference regarding the actual "theme" or did I just watch an ad for the new dlc?

[@SimracingPopometer]

I don't really follow the question I think? An ad? anyway. physics changes are global and affect all cars. you don't necessarily need the latest Gen GT3. however they are simply more evolved cars and different from those of 2018. a 992 GT3 is more mid engine than the 991 GT3. the M4 is an entirely different car to the M6. aero maps have gotten a lot better and less sensitive (though I'm not sure if the game really reflects that)

[@joda1302]

Wieder ein super Video Nils.Dankeschön^^Mega wie du das erklärst und mit Grafiken untermauerst.Fast wie ein Herr Oberlehrer^^Gerne mehr davon Ja AMS 2 ist schon ne tolle und spassige Sim und entwickelt sich stetig weiter.Es sieht klasse aus (Ein ACC mit solchen Lichtstimmungen und dieser technischen Performance wär ein Traum)und der Sound ist mega-allerdings nur von außen wie ich finde.Onboard hört es sich so dumpf und unspektakulär an vor allem der M4.Irgendwie fast schon bissl langweilig.Vielleicht soll es aber auch so sein und das Gefühl vermitteln das man einen Rennhelm auf hat.Und das Problemkind Multiplayer halt noch.Wenn es ums reine GT Racing geht hat für mich immer noch ACC die Nase vorn. Aber man kann die beiden Sims gut nebeneinander existieren lassen und in beiden viel Spaß haben

[@forever211325]

Hi Nils, this is great explanation. Any chance bringing Ams2 to Popometer? Ams2 do not have a telemetry comparing tool. I would like to compare my laps aganist fast guys.

[@SimracingPopometer]

too small player base still to make the effort for us currently and without organized mp there's also little incentive for people to become very competitive to even consider going down that aisle

[@captainaustria95]

There is second monitor which doesnt offer 100% of popometer. features but enables telemetry in terms of comparing speed of other cars in different areas of the lap etc.

[@MegaCm123456]

Thanks for the informative video.

[@perludierende_praesumtion]

Is there a difference between „slip angle“ and the „yaw angle“ you discribed?

[@SimracingPopometer]

yes, slip angle is tire related, yaw angle is car orientation related

[@tkzii6207]

@@SimracingPopometer but worth noting it's the same angle, just not the same referential

[@perludierende_praesumtion]

@@tkzii6207 when you take the rear tyres indeed

[@Drum_x_Life]

​​​@@tkzii6207not the same angle !! Slip angle Is the angle between tyre point and where they " goes " Beta slip angle or angular velocity slip angle that changes with the inertia Moment It' s the angle between where the car pointing and where She effectively goes🫡 Thanks🫶

[@sven.krause75]

Schöne Erklärung! Danke dafür. Frage, fährst Du da bei dem Porsche tatsächlich ca. 100 Grad Reifentemperatur?

[@SimracingPopometer]

habe mich nicht weiter drum gekümmert - gib ihm ;) ist ja bekannt, dass porsches, gerade bei so high speed strecken, hinten evtl ein problem bekommen. da ist aber auch noch luft bei der bremskühlung. das ist alles standard bisher

[@sven.krause75]

@@SimracingPopometer OK, ich war nur erstaunt. Wenn ich den mit AMS2 Standard Setup fahre, dann liegt die Temperatur nach 4-5 Runden bei max. 60 Grad.... Dann mit etwas mehr Bar und Bremsenkühlung zu bin ich auf wenigstens 75-80 Grad gekommen.... Irgendwas mach ich falsch! ;-)

[@SimracingPopometer]

zu langsam würde ich behaupten, und ggf zu untersteuernd ;)

[@eKlasik]

Great explanation. It feels really unnatural in some corners, but the trade off is a car you can really hustle. Pro's and Con's to each sim but I'm bullish on AMS2 👍

[@Mark_R_]

Professor N1lyn delivers again. Thanks mate!

[@strikkflypilot927]

Nice. Have You shown this to Reiza?

[@SimracingPopometer]

I'm sure they know their game a lot better than me

[@strikkflypilot927]

Maybe, but they have worked very hard to find out why their sim model is so "slidey", I dont think this would be out of place.@@SimracingPopometer

[@SimracingPopometer]

@@strikkflypilot927 my video isn't really the "why" on the fundamental level as to why its slidey in the first place. my video answers the question why the driving feels vague at times: slideyness :) I believe my videos are recognized and valued there, no worries. for any change to the general feel of the sim you'd need a good foundation in data to justify making that attempt. Reiza will have their (good) reasons why it is like it is.

[@strikkflypilot927]

@@SimracingPopometer Yes, I thought this video was very clear and didactic so Kudos for this. You have a new subscriber.

[@Mike-xe8dn]

Hello Nils first of all happy new year and best wishes for 2024! Thank you very much for this video, this explains a lot about AMS2. Whould it be possible for you to explain the tire temperature in AMS 2? I mean its very simple and good explained in Assetto Corsa, but i never understood how it really works in Automobilista 2. Is there a way to change the car behaviour you described by changing the tire temperature? When i drive Automobilista 2, i am never sure about the Tire Temperature and how to find the right temperature window during a race, somehow it works. Thank you very much and best regards.

[@Mike-xe8dn]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand i forgot to ask to explain the tire Pressure in AMS2, my fault sorry for this😄 have a nice evening!

[@SimracingPopometer]

i haven't really tucked my head into the temperature stuff. with only the hud to look at we're flying pretty blind and would thus need a lot of testing. though i dont think neither high or low temperatures were a problem on these runs, so it should also not be the root of any behavior.

[@SimracingPopometer]

and likewise: haven't dived into that, so cant really tell. literally havent touched them in the game :D

[@blankfiile]

just like in acc you want to aim for tire pressure for the most part. 1,8 bar hot pressure is a good point for most gt3's etc. temperature impacts your tire pressure and if you see your temp is going high and the pressure follows you will start sliding more and more

[@Mike-xe8dn]

@SimracingPopometer no Problem and i understand, but if i change the tire pressure in ACC i can directly feel an impact to the behaviour of the the car, in AMS 2 not. Maybe its related to the plateau of grip you explained in your video. I know there is a basic video from @steelcast how to set up the pressure and temperature, but somehow i can not really feel a difference if i change the pressure at AMS2. Anyhow, thank you very much for your reply and looking forward for your next Video!

[@AllardWolff]

Cheeky shirt switch 4:38

[@black7rc720]

What is it about all Nils'/Niels' in the world 😉 that make physics discussions enjoyable ? 👍

[@Michele_pioli]

Driving tbe same car (McLaren 720S GT3) almost same settings, same track (Monza) on both ACC and AMS2 I've got 8" hotlap time gap between the 2 sims. Is that normal? I'm rated S1470 in AMS2 and 9509 in ACC.

[@SimracingPopometer]

I'm unaware what the rating really means. assuming you are quicker in AMS2, I guess that's kinda the point: ams2 is much more forgiving. Fastest acc times are 1:45 I believe

[@Michele_pioli]

Yes, you are right: I'm much faster on AMS2 than ACC (any car, any track). but I guess that ACC is much closer to the reality (on car handling and physics) than AMS2. I've never driven a real GT3 car so that's just my thought. ACC seems to be a more realistic simulator but... I enjoy more to play AMS2 (also much better in VR) 🙂. Thanks for your answer.@@SimracingPopometer

[@stevenmelling6068]

Played plenty of ams2 But never in a GT3 car there are to many of them in racing games (1000s of hours on ACC has burned my passion for them ) But love lots of different options in AMS2 and using a Scandinavian flick to set up my slip angle entry and throttle control exit over steer lots of fun and feels real enough for me . Try some old school open wheelers especially ones with a much smaller foot print on the front and Gt3 driving technic won't work. Imo

[@SimracingPopometer]

yeah indycars are a bit sharper, too. also the lmdh's cant really be driven like that. they have the yaw, but they dont have the option to push as much over the front into the corner

[@stevenmelling6068]

Wow can't believe you replied lol what I meant to say was amazing video explaining things that so many overlook and to have the ability to communicate to the fellow SIM racer in a way that we can all understand. You are appreciated by many Cheers

[@dealscale]

In your opinion (if you must choose one), do you like the physics better in ams2 or acc?

[@SimracingPopometer]

general driving feels more nuanced in acc. theres more fidelity in the feedback of the car, more variation between cars. but of course i'd like to see a cleaner acting suspension like ams2 has it - or any sim really.

[@Blue_Monkey]

@@SimracingPopometer In your opinion is this an issue with FFB or physics?

[@SimracingPopometer]

@@Blue_Monkey ffb is only a result of physics. so everything you feel is because of what the physics provide. issue? I don't know. different? for sure.

[@jopereirapt]

@@SimracingPopometerI've developed a custom FFB file (FullFFB available on Reiza forum) because I felt a discrepancy between visuals and FFB in AMS2. Of course, all I use is physics based, variables from physics engine, like YAW variable to transmit lateral g-force and lost of grip on the rear axle. I go even further - just like on Hollywood blockbusters, I don't care how they fake reality as long as it feels real.

[@SimracingPopometer]

@@jopereirapt i dont see any problem with ffb. its all there, i have all information needed and can do whatever i want with the car.

[@viktorianas]

It is nice and dandy, but there should be REAL WORLD data to compare which sim is THE CLOSEST to the real thing, I personally get the most natural feel from RF2.

[@SimracingPopometer]

yeah, rf2 can be very crisp and natural to drive. agree. especially the formula cars. though its sometimes a bit hit and miss. one might be great, another might be shocking :D the problem with real life data is that its hard to get, sometimes even measure. theres a reason some f1 teams have great sim -> track correlation, while others have worse sim -> track correlation. apparently it's difficult operating at the edge of knowledge / available data

[@viktorianas]

@@SimracingPopometer I know it's marketing but still, RF2 works very close with GoodYear and has plenty of data. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l3rMkmOhps2Vg7c

[@marccollins1445]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6C7aoBortqBiqM This is good context for whether slip angles are as peaky as most sims or whether AMS 2 might be closer to reality than most.

[@SimracingPopometer]

I didn't know newgarden shared a few words on that, thanks! The main thing I see in these IndyCar Clips is that while the car moves on the tire without just outright spinning, the corrections and the loss and regain of grip all are very crisp and snappy, it's not stuck in a permanent steady yaw, but all the time goes back and forth, nose in, nose out. One day we'll be there.

[@marccollins1445]

@@SimracingPopometer Sure, and for the cars that already behave that way in AMS 2 I hear criticism that they are on rails or unrealistically too easy to drive, etc. I don't think the physics are very far off in AMS 2, but I do think various FFB and screen motion settings can exaggerate the feeling/sensation of yaw...because they are supposed to do that! We need some exaggeration to compensate for sitting in static chairs looking at flat screens (IMO).

[@hefewe1zen940]

the best simracing video I've watched recently, explains a lot. most youtubers were like '"it's hypercars!!44!! brrrrrr!" about the new AMS2 content. this theory makes sense I wonder what sims get it right, I guess it's mostly RF2

[@SimracingPopometer]

i wouldnt say its wrong, im just describing. different tire manufacturers, different compounds, different track states. you quickly have a pretty different feel when just one factor changes. but yes, i'd say rf2 can feel very crisp, while staying in charge of the tire and slip as well, without going extreme. but thats only true for some cars

[@WarmRed77]

Erster haha, im ernst deine Beiträge sind immer seht informativ und ich sehe sie mir immer gerne an.

[@jpex9]

Assets Corsa the best ?

[@SimracingPopometer]

its not that simple unfortunately. all games have better and worse areas. depends what you prefer. AC surely is a bit dated, but a successor is on the horizon this year, the first actual new game in years in simracing.

[@jpex9]

@@SimracingPopometer the tire model seems bang on with AC I also like BeamNG for the weight transfer and yaw is the best. Can’t wait for AC2 though

[@FG_SIMRACING]

@@SimracingPopometerHope AC2 performs well from day 1 with my prehistoric PC 😅

[@Spinelli__]

The only sims that, by far, have realistic, "organic", natural vehicle behaviour in terms of oversteer - especially how the vehicle's rear rotates relative to the vehicle's overall direction of travel - are Live For Speed, Netkar Pro and, usually (but not as good as LFS & NKP), Assetto Corsa. The rest of PC racing sims all have screwed up, unnatural behaviour during oversteer. All sorts of broken underlying vehicle behaviour.

[@phenrysmueller3597]

just reduce the layer of the clutch from 6 to 2 and the rotation is gone...

[@SimracingPopometer]

yeah, because you are smoking the inside wheel, which is not what a race car is supposed to do - also that is ONLY on power and has no effect on the 'slideyness' of the front axle and you'd get even more rotation off throttle with a nervous rear on the brakes. the differential is not a solution to the slip/grip relationship. the only thing you are doing is make lap times slower with that, because you are wasting energy on the inside wheel producing heat. its hard to understand for me, how someone can be so confident in an obvious non-solution

[@WhippyWhip2]

gt3 cars are a bit crap in ams2 in my opinion, feel way too slidey, TC is bad in ams 2 also, it acts like stability control instead

[@nickyjj5459]

Just played stock car and it feels your driving a rally car. Bit too much side ways action

[@SimracingPopometer]

try less throttle :) they are powerful without downforce though I havent driven them at all - so i ultimately am guessing ;)

[@Itzz_PinkyMoon]

wenn nur mal einer auf deutsch so ein Video machen würde, mein englisch ist zu schlecht -.-

[@WarmRed77]

Das wäre natürlich eine tolle Sache, mein englisch ist auch „not the yellow of the egg“!

[@Drum_x_Life]

In automobilista 2 the coefficient og grip N/Load on tyre never change U are no right nils 👍👍

[@LaJiahao]

Yo yo negud

[@Raceathome]

Why do people still bother with static rigs? Everything is guesswork if you can't feel anything.

[@SimracingPopometer]

mh no. there are visual, acoustic and haptic (ffb) feedback mechanisms that hold all information in all games. it's unique to ams2 and other isi based sims to remain a certain vagueness on tire level

[@daifuco]

But... Is this car behaviour intended? Because it sounds like a simplification in the physics that leads to uncertainity, which is not very sim-like. And Reiza sells the game as a pure sim racer

[@SimracingPopometer]

pretty certain they will at least have good reasons (data) to go down that path or end up where they are. unlikely to be a "let's maybe this easier"-choice

[@mikecroshaw9233]

It's a choice. Renato did a long post on this the other day. The physics model in AMS2 is not simple at all ( none of them are tbh ). Reiza like that AMS2 is more approachable than most. Don't forget Nils is an extremely skilled sim racer. Most people don't find it as easy as him. At the high end, the really fast guys have learnt to manage the slip angle really well, but it doesn't work this well on all cars. Renato said there will be more refinement in 1.6 but it will still likely be more forgiving than say iRacing, and for now they feel they are happy with where it is. I don't worry about it being 100% realistic, as none of them are. It's for me a great blend of fun and serious sim which is perfect. I also play iRacing, AC, RF2 etc and AMS2 always hits the spot. But everyone is different, if you prefer a more punishing model go play iRacing. Just don't spend you time attacking AMS2 like so many others. Reiza are happy with it, and hopefully focussing on MP more for now, and most of the people playing it are enjoying it so I don't see the problem. If all the sims were the same it would be pretty boring tbh.

[@daifuco]

@@mikecroshaw9233 thanks a lot for you reply. I enjoy the game a lot. I couldn't stop playing yesterday. I especially play H shifter cars. My mind is so busy learning to use clutch pedals, blipping and shifting that I don't have time to focus on "secondary things" like grip 😂. There's a lot of snobbery in the sim racing world.

[@mikecroshaw5754]

@@daifucoyep I’m in the same spot got my h pattern shifted recently ! I think ams2 is a good place to learn this stuff as long as you understand where it is lenient and what you need to change for other sims . I’m playing some ac as well which is also fun .

[@TheCameltotem]

@@mikecroshaw9233 Not played Iracing and heard its very little slip angle, but I have played AC and I feel like that is less forgiving than AMS 2 so I would like something inbetween AMS2 and Iracing.

[@dc-vw4qm]

>no mention of how human perception muddies the entire argument to begin with Opinion discarded. I cant be the obly one with an iQ over 90

[@SimracingPopometer]

how exactly does your perception differ?

[@abuelb]

AMS2 is the worst in physics department.

[@SimracingPopometer]

probably not

[@aderpontes2909]

😂

[@dealscale]

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[@HDRGamingHub]

AMS2 is still trash and it will be trash. It will never be a proper sim like AC or Iracing.

[@SimracingPopometer]

a bit of a undifferentiated, no?

[@sneakygloworm]

@ACFUN34 But how do you know? You'd need 400+ hours in an actual GT3 car and then the same amount in the sim. Back and forth. It's okay saying a sim is trash but you have zero frame of reference and thus your statement is pointless. How do you know that AC and Ice Racing are proper sims? Coz the internet tells you it's so? They could be (and probably are) completely inaccurate. It's not about accuracy, its mostly what info you get solely through the wheel and visually on the monitor. Nothing like actually driving at all.

[@HDRGamingHub]

@@sneakygloworm Stop pretending .....

[@sneakygloworm]

@@HDRGamingHub Stop being a drama queen.....

[@D3D3]

hi and thanks for the good explanation 💪👌, yfi the link "🎮 Simracing Hardware Guide ✅:" dosn't work

[@SimracingPopometer]

oh indeed, we moved that to the other website: popometer.io/p/hardware-guide

[@toddwasson3355]

You've got the right basic idea, but the body slip angle doesn't say anything about understeer/oversteer. Google "vehicle dynamics tangent speed" for more info. The tire force curves in that second chart are ridiculous looking at high slip. Surely that's not what AMS2 is really using?

[@SimracingPopometer]

sims are not "using" a certain slip/grip graph. its merely a result of their framework. if you look closely it says "exaggerated" on top and i mentioned that this is to highlight the topic, not an accurate picture of whatever the graph is. however, no matter the actual shape, that the tendency will be true compared to other sims. theres a lot of slip possible without losing speed and theres a lot of room to play around and set the car at whatever yaw angle you want and still drive round the corner.

[@toddwasson3355]

@@SimracingPopometerYeah, I know how it works. I wrote the tire models for KartKraft, VRC, and VRC Pro and did some updates to tire models in other sims over my 24+ year career writing and working on various sim engines, including a couple years with Studio 397 modifying the rFactor engine for two games which were using it. When I said "using," what I meant was "if you ran the tire model in such a way as to produce lateral force vs slip angle curves, what would they look like?" Functionally it's identical to "using those curves" because the tire model would reproduce those. There's no difference really. I missed the "exaggerated" text. Saw it on my phone where it's too small to see. I must have spaced out when you mentioned it or skipped over that part. Anyway, my point was the yaw angle (in vehicle dynamics engineering lingo it's called "sideslip angle") doesn't tell you anything about understeer/oversteer. At the tangent speed of the vehicle, the sideslip angle is 0. Below that speed it's in a nose out attitude. Above that speed it's nose in. In either case it could be understeer or oversteer. The general idea you might have been trying to convey that different cars on different tires with different cornering stiffnesses (peaks at higher or lower slip angles) will have different sideslip angles is correct, it just doesn't tell you very much other than how stiff the tires are. On power coming out of turns the picture completely changes though. Those slip angle vs lateral force curves look completely different under combined grip, not to mention effects on yaw moment from longitudinal force split between the left/right rear tires. aka, effects from the differential. All sim racers ever talk about is lateral force, but that's only part of the story. More on tangent speed @19:00 : kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnTRe6WanZZsjc0&ab_channel=DrEstes

[@jopereirapt]

Thanks for the technical explanation of what's happening, that's for sure what I feel. Although AMS2 is my main sim right now (rF2 before), I really wish it could have a more pointy grip transfer curve. Really hope Reiza could give us that extra option, keeping current tyre model for those loving it was it is. Why don't sims offer that, pleasing a greater audience? Just like they do offer driving lines, stability control and ABS and TC for cars that don't have them in real life?

[@SimracingPopometer]

something like the tire model is probably a bit too deep rooted to have (AND MAINTAIN) various of them with limited budgets and dev time

[@toddwasson3355]

Nah, it's just some parameter tuning by a vehicle dynamics dude. It doesn't generally involve programmers. Every sim I ever worked on only had one tire model for the player. There's not a different one for each car. The parameters (inputs) are different for different tires, but the model/code is exactly the same.