SM64 - Wiggler's Red Coins - 2x A Presses

[@jetx_47]

You really wouldn't expect there to still be A presses her to be saved in this course. But there's TWO of them.

[@Fritzafella]

This has got to be the single most frustrating Star in a 120 Star game. Everything in TTC is obnoxious because the level is unusually vertical, but you have so much stuff to play with and so many bizzarre tricks. But these damn coins are just on normal ledges, ledges you have an obscene number of ways to overcome elsewhere, that just don't apply here. *And there are fricken two of em*

[@scantyer]

so true

[@ianmathwiz7]

There's also the chest star from JRB.

[@eboone]

@@ianmathwiz7 no longer

[@PlushSM64]

My first ABC improvement was done on this star 3 years ago :'') so much time has passed

[@TylerKehne]

Wow, what was the improvement?

[@PlushSM64]

Tyler Kehne The ZB strat from 7th to 8th red coin =)

[@notchmath9642]

Plush That was insane.

[@notchmath9642]

Tyler Kehne Could your wiggler speed thing help get you forced at a diagonal and through the floor onto the 7th coin, thhus being able to save at least one A press?

[@PlushSM64]

TheLoneWolf We thought of that. However, it seems that you end up always bonking on the wall because of too much speed. I'm happy that somebody suggested this tricky idea =)

[@NCXDKG]

these are the 2 a presses i'm most hopeful for to find a workaround.

[@ccgarciab]

Why?

[@redonaldchannel]

(clueless)

[@waffledoctor87]

Mario's long jump and dive moves travel at about 33.5 miles per hour.

[@trentthen642]

That frustrating feeling when a star actually makes you use Mario’s jumping ability

[@jongyon7192p]

Someone probably already thought of star dance clipping here. (Dupe enough coins from pihranas EDIT: to overflow the coin value, then make star in whatever limited place you could.) Doesn't look like there's a good coin position close enough to a ledge. And even less likely, duping the blue press or blue coin. But there are no grabbables, so nvm that 2nd thought.

[@owenfrazier5209]

Yes, and that person was Pannenkoek2012.

[@jongyon7192p]

Owen Frazier No, excluding him. Of course he thought of everything, that's a given.

[@PerfectPotion]

It amazes me to think that it's easy to write a program that tries to do the A button challenge or tool-assisted speedruns. Take the ROM as input and output the movie file as a series of button/stick inputs and timings. However, without good AI, the program would suffer from combinatorial explosion and wouldn't finish within the Earth's life time.

[@Bobstew68]

Maybe someone could put a proper deep learning AI on this task in the future, yeah.

[@Rotem_S]

the problem is that deep learning is based on there being a smooth solution up to a very high degree, and here it's the exact opposite: glitches, warps, discrete numbers.... you can try to make an AI that tries to find glitches or something, but AI isn't the solution for every problem (until we have something far superior to deep dream, in which point it'll just be a really smart human with unlimited resources)

[@ericpeterson6520]

Would it be possible to use a hangable ceiling upwarp to save an A press here? You'd still need to jump to initiate the glitch (probably), but maybe if you landed on the 1up platform you could use it to get to both of the higher coins without jumping again?

[@DebugCat]

i'm going to test it

[@eddiemate]

Just looking at the video, I don’t think this technique will save A presses.

[@ikercalderon163]

No way, you still need the second A press (or if you hang till there you will need another A press to get to the 1up platform)

[@crinklefry6083]

That room just makes me sad. That's all that really is for me to say about this.

[@好吧-h6k]

I think this is probably going to be the next a press save

[@ikercalderon163]

I don't think so 😅 there isn't almost anything to work with. They weren't very far to save the A press in fire sea in N64 😅 probably that would come first than this 2

[@gobbleguk]

@@ikercalderon163 SotT 0xA and even BitFS 0xA look more promising than this

[@ikercalderon163]

@@gobbleguk yeah, for sure. There are some ideas, in BitFS something similar like the 0xA on LLL on the volcano star (I can't remember the name of the star 😅)

[@a.d.t.mapping]

@@gobbleguk for SotT 0x it's mostly done, what's left is just tasing. And BitFS 0x (on N64) is definitely on the horizon somewhere

[@gobbleguk]

@@a.d.t.mapping Yea I could see that based on the vids posted last week lol

[@clarise-lyrasmith3]

Now there's hope. I'm hoping really hard.

[@waterwraith3334]

Has anyone tried to get pushed underneath the floor during the wiggler boss fight? If you can do that in the right spot that should save at least 1 of these A presses.

[@KingMetalMario]

They have, and currently there is no known way to do that

[@Merluch]

If we get a fire clone in position we could use that and a star dance clip to save the first A-press, but idk about the second

[@Sypaka]

I wonder if you can pre-place HOLP inside that room and replace it with wiggler, to save those 2 A's.

[@Sypaka]

Game Buster mh, crap.. so those 2 A's remain as they are

[@Sypaka]

Game Buster This sub-area is very sterile, as I remember. Too bad there is no arbitrary code execution we can apply here, either to swap stars or set "collect_red_coin_bitmask = 0xFF" so the star appears instantly upon entering this sub-area. :/

[@connfdm]

+Game Buster, not very important but D) might also be invalidated as well if someone finds a way to set the camera

[@connfdm]

Game Buster I'm aware, thats why I mentioned the fact that it _might_ be invalidated later on; though for now it's still one of the problems of course.

[@marctreal]

"A) There's nothing to grab in THI" There's chuckya that could be grabbed (3:47) although I don't know if that would work or not.

[@JoshuaJustice]

With all the goombas in this level isn't there a way you can set the HOLP in there from another map and clone up a goomba bridge?

[@HeirTransparent7]

+Joshua Justice he doesn't have access to any objects that can be used to clone.

[@turkeycooktime458]

@@HeirTransparent7 He could use the Chuckya, but it gives you such a high VS# that it may not be possible to clone anything in THI

[@mathphysicsnerd]

Clones don't survive map transitions. This is one of the reasons BitS is possible 0xA without crashing from too many clones

[@MysteryGamingYoutube]

Would it be possible to use VSC into a ceiling to glitch into grabbing the hangable ceiling? You could use half an A press to maneuver on the ceiling to gain height and save one of the A presses.

[@BrettMKW]

So if I understand the last paragraph correctly, killing the piranha plant on the same frame will always make the coin move at the same speed and angle?

[@pannenkoek2012]

It depends what the RNG is on that frame. Depending on what happened prior to that moment, there might be a different RNG value on that frame.

[@EP1CxEMAN08]

pannenkoek2012 So could you use a TAS from the moment the game starts to get the same RNG every time the TAS happens?, if the TAS requires RNG?

[@Bobstew68]

Yes, the game pulls no values from outside the game (such as PC games might do with the system clock), thus the RNG is consistent in a TAS.

[@acblook]

Honestly I dont get why this is still impossible to at least do in 1.5x a. He's shown that you can upwarp to the ceiling from the entrance in his bitfs 0xa ideas video. And even if you couldn't, it seems like there should be some way to store enough downwards vertical movement to pass through the floor in a quarter step, then release it from the wiggler boss room

[@DreamerTheWolfFox]

see i just thought of something like that too. im thinking why cant we somehow clip through the floor so we can get one of the red coins 0x

[@fuby6065]

@@DreamerTheWolfFox they've tried, there is no way to clip through because downwards momentum is capped at far too small of a number, and there is basically no way to generate it, and clipping through with horizontal speed is difficult because the floor is such a shallow slope, you need to be basically in the middle of it with a great amount of speed, and there's no way to get enough speed, and get to the middle

[@jetx_47]

I think you need to be in the jump state to grab onto hangable ceiling. Holding and doing DRs wouldn't cut it

[@olipolygon]

@@fuby6065 well, you can generate speed, quite a bit in fact (Tyler Kehne has a video on it--wiggler hyperspeed), but there doesn't seem to be a good way to exit with that speed, and it's forward speed which means you'd need some way to convert it to negative speed if you wanted to do something like a negative jump (which requires an A press, but enough speed and a negative jump could save one of two a presses)

[@colmenasio5542]

2?????????

[@slowfreq]

Is there any hope for this one?

[@Benjamslikestrains]

perhaps, there is always a presses to be saved. some people thought that certain A presses were impossible (like the cannon one in JRB) and they got saved, so there's always a possibility that others we think are impossible now can be saved as well.

[@pedlar6839]

Doesn’t seem like it

[@ChillyOn]

no more works around this really ?

[@NoNameAtAll2]

9 years of stability... sad

[@notchmath9642]

Could Tylers speed thing help with this?

[@pannenkoek2012]

we'll have to ask Tyler Kehne on that one

[@notchmath9642]

Also, could you potentially clone something loaded all the time by holding, say, loaded spot 9 and then that spot unloads while you are using it somehow? And maybe his speed thing could bounce off of a diagonal and hit and go through the floor at the 7th red coin...

[@TylerKehne]

It would let us go through the mesh, but we can't land quick enough to avoid hitting the wall first.

[@notchmath9642]

So you hit the wall and end up landing on the 7th coin platform. Wouldn't that still save an a press?

[@notchmath9642]

Tyler Kehne Just commented, figured I would let you know.

[@justsomeguy5628]

This observation is from @acblock, 2 years before posting this, but why can't you use the upwarp shown in the BitFS 0xA Ideas video to get to the higher one and potentially save an a press (assuming you can get to the lower one from the higher one)? Is it just that there is no known way to get from the higher to lower coin?

[@hollower8912]

In order to do the upwarp, you need to hit a ceiling that's under a hangable ceiling. Since the only ceiling in the cave is the hangable ceiling, it won't work

[@tastebuds.9269]

​@@hollower8912This is false. You can do the upwarp, it just doesn't save any A presses. Pannen shows the Wiggler cave upwarp in his TTC upwarp bounty video

[@adealmusic]

Can you conserve secret speed through loading zones ?

[@Quintratix]

No.