So my 240v 50amp NEMA 6-50 receptacle for my welder and kiln has to be GFCI protected?

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[@garageworker]

Wow, thank you for answering my question. Your channel is truly an asset to KZbin. Thanks again.

[@SparkyChannel]

I'm so glad you liked it. Answering questions is really a challenge sometimes but I learn a lot that way!

[@colorado-boycreations6011]

@@SparkyChannel great video, but that nema 6-50 has no place to land the grounded conductor. What do you do with the neutral?

[@snap-off5383]

@@colorado-boycreations6011 you connect the neutral pigtail of the GFCI to the neutral bus in the panel (to power the GFCI electronics) and leave the neutral output of the GFCI open. just connect the two hot leg output terminals to each hot leg. It will still trip if all the current leaving on one hot leg isn't returning on the other.

[@DuffyHomoHabilis]

Great discussion all around. But, there is another "solution" : put your welder's receptacle in a "habitable space." So build some walls around it, put in a light and a Barcolounger next to it, and now it's no longer "not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas..." The welder can be a side table! And all you need are REALLY long (and thick) welding cables. Ok, this is ridiculous sarcasm, and I know it opens up a can of worms to meet codes for "habitable space," not only for the NEC, but for all the other codes as well. Just thinking outside the box and having a little fun! 😁

[@jfbeam]

A(1) through A(11) is basically the entire house. As I said upon seeing the title... if it's in a garage, laundry room, or outside, "YES"... for a _residence_ -- luckily, my welder stays at an industrial location.

[@a..d5518]

😂

[@randydunbar1901]

Your Interpretaion is Spot On

[@TheModelmaker123]

I can't believe this clip got a (one) thumbs down! Geez, Do they have any idea the time and effort required to bring quality, free educational material? Thanks Sparky

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much!

[@IceBergGeo]

Even the good videos have 1-3% of thumbs down...

[@jackhembree2503]

Bill, thanks for the video!! Thanks to those commenting about hardwired disconnects. When I installed a 20 amp ,250 volt circuit, it was a no brainier to use a two pole gfci breaker. Many of my shop or garage tools could have been hard wired; most have very large guage cords included. Portability and being able to get the welder outside is nice. Once again thanks for the help. Jack

[@SparkyChannel]

My pleasure Jack!

[@mandomonica]

Thank you! I very much appreciate the way you use the code in your explanation.

[@Aepek]

Like that you do show the code, and code books for us to get if want to. Not easy to “interpret” codes sometimes, have always said.....it’s like they write them the way they do on purpose to confuse ppl😂; BUT, over the years they have gotten better with explaining and adding examples. Cheers✌🏻

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, I think that showing the code and discussing it is the only way to go. The reality is that different inspectors will interpret these codes in different ways sometimes and these discussions such as you see in these comment sections will prepare us for the same discussions we might have with inspectors. Thanks!

[@ajbrant3296]

I think they are written that way so that it looks good on legal paperwork. Just my opinion. Also remember that the NEC is the MINIMUM needed

[@monono954]

Thank you for your time and expertise, Bill.

[@SparkyChannel]

My pleasure, thanks!

[@mothman-jz8ug]

GFCI on a welder is a GREAT idea. This could generate a large chunk of revenue for equipment manufacturers. The companies should cough up the cash get AFCI's for welder receptacles in the next edition. THAT should be fun.

[@RaggedsEdge]

More and more it does seem like code is changing for the sake of the manufacturer over the safety of the end user.

[@SparkyChannel]

I do understand. Thanks! ⚡

[@greg778123]

Then comes the 3rd edition combo gfci/afci 😄

[@greg778123]

The best protection that would suit a welder receptacle would be a isolation transformer it would Isolate the AC system from the welding transformer another time but it would be pricey now days

[@benjaminkline4855]

Plot twist the fan on the welder is 120 volt which makes the neutral a conductor. A 4 prong plug with a separate ground must be used.

[@seephor]

I don't think a well designed welder will use the ground as a conductor in any circumstance. If it requires 120 as well as 240 then the required receptacle should be as such.

[@ericfraser7543]

@Fred Wills I also was scratching my head after watching this video... GFCI Breakers require a neutral wire, current never flows on the ground wire unless there is a short. Unless you have a welder with a four prong outlet, I don't believe you can GFCI protect it or for that matter even plug it into a GFCI protected outlet.

[@gsftom]

Learned what L6 and L14 are! Good stuff 🙂

[@Eddy63]

Good vid Wild Bill ... You sparked the interest of the commenters ... Very enjoyable reading ...

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Eddy! I'm learning things reading all the comments. Have a great day!

[@greg778123]

love last year’s price of that gfci breaker

[@89Ayten]

I have a 6-50 receptacle in my garage without a gfci breaker. Breakin' the law every day.

[@Juanalbertocruz1]

Love your approach. Thanks!!!!

[@oshtoolman]

Not being an electrician, I really appreciate the videos you do. I feel comfortable enough to do small things, like change out receptacles, install CGFI receptacles, wiring for lights etc. I can even wire in a new circuit from the box to a new area (like to my patio). But as soon as you start talking 240 volts, split phase etc etc., that's when I call my local licensed electrician. That stuff can kill you dead!!

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent! That's my advice as well. You're a wise man! :)

[@gravytraining4362]

I just got nabbed on this one a couple months ago. Plug in electric car charger. I didn't know but the inspector did! I paid $125 for that exact Siemens breaker from Viking Electric and it cost me about an hour of my time. Live and lean. I'm enjoying your videos. Thanks for the effort. 20+ year master

[@gravytraining4362]

Another work around would be to hardwire your stuff if that's an option.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks! Yes, those GFCI breakers aren't cheap!

[@SparkyChannel]

@@gravytraining4362 Excellent!

[@seanalexander2847]

How does arc fault and ground fault protection play in to a subpanel feeder lines (100 amp or more subpanel)? In other words, do the feeder lines need to be protected in the main or subpanel when all of the subpanel circuits will be appropriately protected?

[@cobbles62]

Hi sparky, I plug my RV into a 14-50R at home. That's a 6-50R with an added neutral. Following the code as you showed it should be ground fault protected. However... There seems to be an exception. I believe that since I basically make a connection to a sub-panel in the RV it does not need to be ground fault protected.

[@MLFranklin]

I think you would not need it if your RV were hardwired to your home. If there is a chance that anyone will unplug it and plug something else in, it still needs the GFCI protection.

[@KY4TRK]

Code Wise. If not new construction does this even apply ❓ If before code dating of said item in question ❓

[@TheDannytre]

Awesome introduction Bill, I love the whole GFCI/AFCI I breaker system. So if this outlet has to be GFCI protected then that means that the Oven and dryer plugs need to be GFCI protected as well or AFCI. I think at this point every last connection in the house is all going to be protected at the breaker system of some sort so that nothing gets overlooked and that is the best insurance policy that anybody can have.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Danny!

[@fredmauck6934]

The locations listed in article 208 did not include habitable spaces. The article said Bathrooms, Outdoors and garages.

[@garydudgeon]

Good explanation Sparky.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Gary!

[@gottfriedschuss5999]

I'm late to the game, but... Another great video! I have a couple of comments about some comments for this video. For the sparkies who may read this, I apologize in advance for telling you things that you already know. To be precise, the North American residential electrical system is called '120/240 split phase', sometimes also known as an 'Edison three wire' system. By definition, it is single phase. There is an exception to "By definition..." and that is 3-phase high leg delta (AKA wild leg, orange leg, 120/240V 3-phase, etc. depending on the local vernacular); this is beyond the scope of this comment, and is _almost_ never found in a residence. Note, the voltages are _120_ and _240_ and not 125 not 115 not 110 nor 220 nor 230. 115 and 230 V are the correct ratings for loads, as there is a presumptive voltage drop between the source and the load. 125 and 250 volts is the correct _rating_ for devices (e.g., receptacles) for 120 volt and 240 volt branch circuits, respectively. Further, notice that 120/240 split phase does _not_ use the phrase, '2-phase'. Split phase is decidedly _not_ 2-phase! For the record, 2-phase systems do exist. I believe there are still some 2-phase systems in downtown Philadelphia (if you know for sure, please correct my geography). The two phases in a 2-phase system are 90º out of phase (to be more precise, one phase leads the other by 90º). The two legs of a split phase system are 180º apart. I don't believe any electricity providers still _generate_ 2-phase electricity (again, if you know for sure, please correct me). By generate, I mean with a prime mover turning a generator. Utilities do provide 2-phase power to existing customers. They do this through the use of a Scott-Tee transformer arrangement (or, rarely, with a motor generator); both cases start with 3-phase electricity. As to why North America doesn't use higher voltage and 3-phase for residential service, this is the result of a common situation. In the USA, Edison started his distribution as 120/240V _DC_ . AC won the current wars, because it could be 'shipped' further by stepping up the voltage with transformers, which couldn't be done with DC. The US stayed with the 120/240 systems, because it was more cost-effective to keep the existing infrastructure, and the momentum was in that direction. (This is a much abbreviated description, check the WWW for more details, in particular, check 'Kathy Loves Physics' on KZbin). When a country or region is the first to develop or deploy a new service, be it electricity, phone, internet, etc., it is often the case that other countries/regions will take advantage of lessons learned, new developments, etc. and may have a better version of that service. Too frequently, in the US, tax laws inhibit taking advantage of newer/better technologies. I offer the phone system in the USA as an example. For local service, it is decidedly a copper wire based system for local transport of terrestrial calls. Each of the local exchange companies, LECs, have tens of billions of dollars of sunk assets in this copper plant. US tax code prevents the LECs from taking a tax write off for this asset. Instead, they have to depreciate the copper plant over a long period of time. Thus, it is cost prohibitive, in many cases, for the LECs to abandon the copper plant and instead provide fiber to the home. Be well & Best regards, Gottfried

[@court2379]

I would guess any "2-phase" system would be 120 degrees apart, not 90. As they would be two legs of a three phase system. I don't know why they just wouldn't center tap the transformer though and get proper 180 deg two phase. I have to say the terminology on this is just idiotic. Redefine that old method of non 180deg phases and call the power used across the country what is actually is. 120V 2 phase. Instead we have to go around stating how many wires we are using. The behavior/terminology also tends to make people not understand what is really happening.

[@gottfriedschuss5999]

@@court2379 With respect, your guess is wrong. These old 2-phase systems that still operate in downtown Philadelphia, PA and, I believe, downtown Hartford, CT operate 90 degrees out of phase, not 120 degrees as you 'guess'. This is a fact and as such is not subject to guessing nor debate. See, for example, Wikipedia, "Two-Phase Electric Power". With a Scott Tee transformer, one can derive 2-phase electric power from 3-phase, that has a 90º phase separation, due to the clever vector addition imposed by this transformer arrangement. The idea behind polyphase electrical systems is to 'smooth out' the peaks and valleys of single phase electric power. As a result, a 2-phase system delivers sqrt(2) times as much power as the equivalent single-phase system. Similarly, a 3-phase system delivers sqrt(3) times as much power as the equivalent single-phase system. A 120/240 split-phase system is _not_ a polyphase system and as such does not have a multiplicative gain, because the two legs, the so-called hot legs (not phases), are 180º out of phase. Also, split-phase, in this context, means that a single phase is 'split' by the grounded center tap, which creates the neutral. The number of wires _is_ critically important. For example, I could have a 3-wire, corner-grounded, 240 volt, 3-phase service, which is decidedly different from a 4-wire, 120/240 volt, high-leg delta service, which is completely different from a 4-wire, 120/208 volt, wye service. I would argue that the nomenclature for North American electrical service is precisely clear: 1. Nearly all residences are served by 120/240 volt, split phase, _single-phase_ services. There are exceptions, but let's stay out of the weeds here. I repeat, 120/240 volt, split phase is not polyphase; it is single phase. 2. 3-phase services vary by voltage (e.g. 120/240, 240, 120/208, 240/480, 480, 277/480, 600, etc.) and configuration (star/wye or delta), grounding (corner, center tap, or star ground), and number of wires (three or four) 3. 2-phase systems are rare, but they do exist. These systems are decidedly in the weeds. I only bring them up to contrast with split-phase single phase, which is not 2-phase. Be well & Best regards, Gottfried

[@court2379]

I will have to look at where they are tapping that 90deg phase out. That is odd.

[@TheSidneySmith]

the biggest problem with all of these GFCI protected circuits is equipment that CAN NOT run on a GFCI circuit. One such example is a mini split AC unit. Many of these use an inverter and the moment the inverter kicks on, the GFCI trips. Found that out after setting one up for quick switching to generator on an inside/outside wall power set up.

[@jfbeam]

Hard wired connections don't have to be protected. Simple enough to fix. (or do you regularly intend to move that unit around?)

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks, great information!

[@TheSidneySmith]

@@jfbeam it has to be able to plug into house voltage and generator voltage independently. It's for hurricane back up in case of multiple days of power outage. Unit is hard mounted, power wire is a 120v plug in. There's also outlets inside to supply for plug in lights and extensions to refrigerators to keep foods safe within the power envelop of the generator.

[@jfbeam]

@@TheSidneySmith See also: protected load panel.

[@markc2643]

Another example is a 5W Fluorescent lamp with a series ballast in a microscope. I've seen several GFCI's in the same circuit pop when turning the power switch OFF. Why they put a GFCI outlet at each station in a branch, I have no idea.

[@dontbanmebrodontbanme5403]

So where I live, they're still using the 2017 code and I therefore don't need GFCI. I'm installing a NEMA 14-50 receptacle for my car. From what I've read, GFCI breakers seem to mess with cars charging and it keeps tripping the breaker. Finally, the EVSE equipment I've been looking at has GFCI protection built into it. Is this the reason why there are issues? GFCI breaker combined with EVSE that already has GFCI protection, causes tripping? I'm not sure. The most important thing is to find out what year's code your state is using to make sure you're up to code. It's easy enough to pop out a breaker and replace it with a GFCI version if your area updates its code.

[@javiergiraldez1647]

By 2020 code, yes if is in your garage, shed, or separated structure. Also Dryer and Range/Oven

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks!

[@thefritzy81]

Separated structure. No. That isn't a location in 210.8. Dryer. Yes. Laundry area listed in 210.8. Oven. Maybe. If the oven receptacle is within 6' of the sink. Yes. >6' no.

[@tommycho9068]

Good point and also good video. Thank you.

[@SparkyChannel]

My pleasure, thanks!

[@gilbertonino5703]

Sometimes there is a car crash outside in the street, often actually... How do I keep my apparatuses safe and keep them safe from the electric error?

[@HEmustincrease.Imustdecrease]

I haven’t read down further on the comments. So, this may have been mentioned. But, this GFCI protection is also required in A/C condensers and electric water heaters. These units don’t have a neutral to connect to in the units. However, the pigtail on the breaker still need to land on the neutral bar. This is so that the mechanism inside the breaker will still trip with an imbalance.

[@MikeSully01]

I don't have a code book in front of me, but I thought this only applied to receptacles, not hardwired equipment.

[@JoseGarcia-hq2ef]

A/C condensers and water heaters are hard wired not cord and plug connected so GFCI is not applicable in these circumstances

[@thefritzy81]

@@JoseGarcia-hq2efall outdoor outlets are required to be gfci not just receptacles. A/C requires gfci protection.

[@JoseGarcia-hq2ef]

@@thefritzy81 send me the NEC code article on GFCI for central air units

[@thefritzy81]

@@JoseGarcia-hq2ef 210.8(f)

[@petestetson7477]

I noticed on the video that the breaker has the white coil wire, but the welder outlet had 2 hots and a ground. Do you still take the white coil wire to the neutral bus or where does it terminate?

[@sapreaper]

Yes, always terminate the white to neutral buss.

[@johndespard3477]

What size wire for a kiln that draws 48 amps? An old kiln site said to use a 60A breaker, and #6 wire. But an electrical engineer said that I should use a larger wire and maybe even a breaker?

[@ttrbykir]

60a breaker #4 gauge wire. Im not a professional in any way lol. You want the amps to be 80% of the rating of the circuit breaker. 48/60= .8 . Or you can calculate the rating needed by (Amps required)x 1.25=amps rating of circuit breaker. So for you 48x1.25=60.

[@johndespard3477]

@@ttrbykir hey, thanks for the reply! Somehow I misread the plate on the kiln. It's actually draws 38A not 48. I called the manufacturer who couldn't tell me what awg to use, but did say that a 50a breaker is what the kiln was designed for. I ended up buying a 6/2 romex style cable. I think because the sub panel will be in a detached garage, I need gfci protection. So I was going to buy a gfci 50a breaker. I am a bit concerned about a Voltage drop, as the best place for the kiln is 50 feet (of wire) away from the panel. But I guess worse case scenario, I'll just have trouble getting up to higher temperatures.

[@marcw1867]

If there is no neutral it is a 240 volt circuit. If it is for a welder then it is not a personnel device like a grinder or drill. Also the outlet might be on a safety switch and for a dedicated purpose on a single circuit.

[@FixthisCD]

well neutral and ground are the same potential, so there is 120v difference there. Either way I am never gfci protecting a welder ;)

[@benchociej2435]

the purpose of the receptacle doesn't matter for 210.8

[@tedmcdonald3377]

I think your interpretation is spot on and I like the fact that if we're not sure which way to interpret it, just go with the safest way. May be more costly, but only want to do it once!

[@SparkyChannel]

That's my philosophy. Realistically, the thing to do is pass your inspection and get on to the next job. :)

[@elc2k385]

Thank you, sir.

[@SparkyChannel]

My pleasure, thanks!

[@isettech]

Is there an exception for motorhome outlets? Most motorhome electrical panels have neutral and ground bonded, as normal for a dwelling service panel. As such, plugging these into a GFCI on a house will trip the breaker as the return current is now shared by the Ground and Neutral, tripping the GFCI in the home.

[@JR-yl8qi]

It shouldn't bonded in the coach, the bonding is supposed further back towards the meter or main breaker. The RV breaker is treated as a sub panel. Now your generator (if you have one) would be bonded. Just because most have them bonded doesn't mean it's right... I know of someone who had an electrical fire due to the bonding and an unbalanced load. Totally destroyed the coach and nearly burn down his and and neighbor's house.

[@isettech]

@@JR-yl8qi For me the solution is an Isolation Transformer. Generator and the coach panal are neutral bonded along with the generator. Shore power is similar to the star delta configuration of pole or pad utility transformers. Most RV's are bonded at the panel. This is very common.

[@jasoncanmore5838]

Hey Bill, any info about 2020 code requirements for outdoor main disconnects ( Fireman's Switch)?

[@sylvesterstewart868]

You've tripped the diversity breaker with the term "fireman" ( 112 different "genders" as of 2020.)

[@jamess1787]

@@sylvesterstewart868 what about 2021?

[@sylvesterstewart868]

@@jamess1787 Probably 200 by now they need their own code book.

[@willschultz5452]

The one place I was working on they required GFCI and arc fault breakers. I put them in and after inspection the customer got all standard breakers and took the others back and got a refund. He said I'm not spending a $1000 on circuit breakers!🙄

[@KevinCoop1]

Sparky, It would have been nice if you had explained that this new 2020 NEC requirement is not for existing installations that were inspected and approved prior to the adoption by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

[@SparkyChannel]

Correct, thanks!

[@normferguson2769]

Sometimes that means that if you installed it with a permit and got inspected you would be grandfathered. If you installed it 2 months ago with no inspection sticker then the inspector could make you install the GFCI.

[@KevinCoop1]

@@normferguson2769 Correct. But the 2020 NEC would have to be accepted and adopted by the AHJ. You would also see if they made an ordinance to exempt that rule. Generally they do not. It could be your state, county, or city based on where you live.

[@ajbrant3296]

Also the municipality where you are working MAY have other rules in place that are more stringent than the NEC. And yes the NEW CODE is not automatically adopted. I have worked in areas where the code being worked to is a few code cycles older

[@collkell]

Not adopted in Oregon. Only applies to 15 or 20amp receptacle. The amendment didn't remove the less than 50amp verbage, which makes it a little confusing, however, that still applies because the receptacle is less than 50. Let me know if your interpretation of the Oregon amendment matches mine.

[@gbinman]

there are various jurisdictions that do not require the GFCI as described above. In most cases, there's no requirement to retrofit existing installations. However, whether enforced or not, the NEC does set the safety standards for the nation. Jurisdictions can add even stricter codes. In my garage the ceiling outlet is not GFCI protected as that wasn't required in 1991. It is now, but there's no requirement to retrofit.

hey, I have a different question, if I have a Europian 240V device, and i brought a regular EU extension cord, cut the plug, and replaced it with a NEMA 6-50P plug would my EU devices work?

[@SparkyChannel]

I really don't know. Perhaps another viewer can answer that.

[@mikeclarke952]

EU works at 50Hz, so an EU motor runs a bit faster at 60Hz here and will draw a little less current then normal (EU) so will have a little less torque here, but it will work. If it has electronics in it, then it has rectified DC power supply and they are rated for 50-60Hz, so you're good there too.

[@johncreevy8966]

What is the impact to installing said breaker for an outlet used for MIG, TIG and stick welders and a plasma cutter? Will the use of those machines by their nature of how they work trip the breaker and make the outlet useless?

[@jacobbotden5641]

Yes in many cases it will, large heaters like Kilms can have large leakage currents to ground and trip the breaker repeatedly. I see a good market for borrowed breakers that get changed out once the inspector leaves.

[@southtowntn]

A GFCI trips when current goes "missing" from the circuit. In the case with a 240v circuit, L1 and L2 current is unbalanced (not equal). With welders, the GFCI is on the primary side of the transformer in a welder and the arc is on the secondary side of the transformer. Only the primary side of the circuit is fault protected.

[@benchociej2435]

@@jacobbotden5641 If your welder is leaking to ground it's broken

[@pattognozzi]

Hi Bill, I’ve got a code question. I’ve found conflicting information which has me confused so I wanted to ask you. Regarding a 240 circuit- can a second receptacle be added to an existing 240 circuit? Example- a 30 amp circuit supplies an electric dryer in a laundry room. Can an additional 30 amp receptacle be added to the garage using that dryer circuit?

[@AsHellBored]

Laundry room circuits can branch but can't leave the laundry room. So, in directly, no is the answer.

[@pattognozzi]

@@AsHellBored Thanks!

[@cmh2111]

@@AsHellBored Sounds like somebody want to add a second 30 amp receptacle down stream so they can back feed a generator.

[@markchidester6239]

How about something that is hard wired in a garage? An example is a heater mounted up high on a wall having a dedicated circuit and wired directly to the heater with no receptical.

[@SparkyChannel]

The code is only for receptacles in this case.

[@HBSuccess]

Nope don’t need GFCI (yet...lol give it time)

[@farmerjim-fat-man-do]

Haven’t seen the 2020 code book yet but I heard there have been some stupid changes that sounds like is being driven by equipment manufacturers instead of safety and common sense. I would think there has to be exceptions for garage receptacles for dedicated equipment. A welder is going to trip a GFCI especially an archaic stick welder. A large air compressor will likely trip a GFCI, I know my 30 year 50 amp old compressor would.

[@KevinCoop1]

Unfortunately there were no exceptions that apply to them.

[@tikigodsrule2317]

Yep there fix is well go out and buy new appliances.

[@benchociej2435]

By definition that means your appliance is dangerous

[@rogerf3622]

I’m all for safety but consider that not all local codes follow everything in the national code. Check your local code.

[@SparkyChannel]

True, thanks!

[@machintelligence]

GFCI breakers come in all voltages and sizes. I encountered a 480 volt 600 amp three phase GFCI at a U-Haul center/storage facility. It tripped out when there was a ground fault in a 5 horse power air compressor motor located in the service bay. When a breaker that size trips it sounds like a shot. I couldn't at first see why a 30 amp fused load would cause the main breaker for the whole facility to trip until I read the rating plate and realized it was a GFCI.

[@IceBergGeo]

A lot of MCBs are ground fault protected. They aren't your typical 6mA though... They test for amps (between 10 and 100, and often more.)

[@jamisongillespie3524]

This has a lot of implications for EVSE, which already have internal GFCI protection or at least are supposed to

[@SparkyChannel]

For other viewers EVSE stands for Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment, commonly called a charging station or charging dock. I know that Tesla's wall and mobile connectors both have internal GFCI.

[@charletonzimmerman4205]

A way around this is put a ""NON-FUSED" Disconnect, With-in sight, of Welder, & "HARD WIRE" with a Piece, of "Greenfield flex-able " metal conduit", "Reverse engineering as a "PLUG & RECPT" serves as a "DISCONNECT".

[@donruggles8937]

You are absolutely correct the only trouble is in our area they are making us use strain relief which isn't a bad idea but if the unit came with a cord and plug you are now changing the UL listing on it and some inspectors are balking at that.

[@charletonzimmerman4205]

@@donruggles8937 Yes I can see there point, "COLLEGE BOYZ" But as a Master electrician, I've seen, Welder plugs burn -up, "OVERHEAT" As, cord is # 8, copper, & welder during duty cycle, over draws. I had a 70 amp, single phase welder, used a 100 amp disconnect. My point, most welders don't have "WHEELS" so that makes them "FIXED" in place. NOT PORTABLE.

[@richardschneider9837]

Thanks Bill...so that is for dwelling units...is the code different for industrial buildings or is the GFCI on these higher voltage circuits in those facilities now the same as for the dwelling units?

[@thefritzy81]

210.8(b)(8) would require gfci in your situation if the area is a garage.

[@KevinCoop1]

Commercial garages require them too.

[@ibrahimddh93]

Bob can you please help....I have an AC mini split for my attached garage. It says 15amp. The AC disconnect will be on the backside (outside) brick wall. Can I use 30amp double breaker, 10ga romex? Do I have to use pipe through the brick (2ft through the wall)? I see everyone on KZbin using 30amp for mini splits. My county uses 2014 code.

[@chanceltw]

Your mini-split compressor should have two amp ratings - MCA and MOP. Minimum Circuit Ampacity will determine the gauge of wire you use, and Maximum Overcurrent Protection will determine the breaker rating. There are exceptions in the code for HVAC equipment that allow you to size the breaker to the equipment and not the wire.

[@ibrahimddh93]

@@chanceltw the MCA is 15.0A and the Max Fuse says 15.0A. I'm not seeing MOP on the lable.

[@ibrahimddh93]

@@chanceltw do I use 15amp two pole and 14ga wire? Just seems small

[@Nidkidful]

@@ibrahimddh93 use the bigger wire, but put a 15a breaker on it. And do put conduit through the wall. That way, if you have a larger load later, such as a larger unit, you don't have to repull the wire.

[@ibrahimddh93]

@@Nidkidful ok thanks. I orginally purchased 10/3 wire for it.

[@brentoconnor6127]

The code you showed specifically says garages that have a floor at or below grade level. Therefore, the grade level near the garage matters.

[@SparkyChannel]

You're not the only one that feels that way. You might check out my video: Does a Garage Need GFCI if the Floor is Above Grade?: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hX-cfaCPerSBfMU

[@snap-off5383]

No, it specifically said "garages AND ALSO accessory buildings with floors at or below grade" That's grouped like this: [garages] AND ALSO [accessory buildings with floors at or below grade] not like this: [garages & accessory buildings with floors at or below grade]

[@brentoconnor6127]

@@snap-off5383 That's not how English works. The code is worded very poorly if that is what they meant.

[@brentoconnor6127]

@@snap-off5383 if they intended garages in all grade configurations to be included, then garages would be a separate line instead of being included with accessory bldgs in line B of the paragraph.

[@snap-off5383]

@@brentoconnor6127 "If my aunt had nads, she'd be my uncle." "Garages and also" is crystal clear.

[@SassafrasSapling]

I see at 4:48 that you have a chart of the different types of the daul phase outlets.

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, I like to do things like that. Then if anyone wants to look at it they can just pause the video and check it out. I also like to show more of the code articles than I'm going to read in case a viewer would like to pause the vid and read on.

[@KevinCoop1]

They are 2 pole, not dual phase. They are all single phase.

[@CC-jv3wm]

We can still hardly get single pole gf/af breakers let alone a 50 amp two pole gf.... What am I supposed to do? Not hook anything up? People still gotta get shit done. Were gonna have so much breaker replacement work I might throw up.

[@SparkyChannel]

I understand.

[@Jeff-Lawrence]

Hi Bill from Sparky Channel Fantastic Topic Never considered the 240 volt gfci requirements. I have a couple of 240v receptacles in the basement, I’ll have to read that code to see what the requirements are... Every one of your videos gets me thinking. Side note, one of your past videos explained receptacle sizing on circuits according to amps. Wondering, can you use 12 gage wire on a 15 amp circuit as long as the breaker and outlet are sized properly? Or mix wire sizes such as 15 amp circuit breaker, 15 amp receptacle and light with 14 gage from breaker to receptacle but 12 gage to light as an example. Perhaps a video on conductor sizing? Always wondering here. In any case, fantastic video once again and so happy it was on more code. You’re a great teacher And oddly enough, we got sunshine today 🌞

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Jeff! I wrote that down on my list of videos to make. I did get flunked by an inspector once for adding onto a 15A circuit with 12/2 cable. He made me use 14/2 but that really doesn't he was correct. Interesting question, thanks! 🌞

[@amealnet2495]

I have a 10guage 12’ car jumper cables I want to use with two single pole 30amp breakers (one each side of box) to get 240volt will this work?

[@mrosenblatt]

Will it work? Yes. Will it be a hazard for a multitude of reasons? Also yes. Do not do this, please.

[@Krankie_V]

@@mrosenblatt the comment above can't be anything other than a joke I sure hope

[@ZiggyTheHamster]

There are some exceptions, mostly following the rule of thumb of if the appliance is expected to be unplugged more than a few times. EVSEs typically do not require GFCIs (they also are themselves GFCIs), and seems like some types of garage heaters don't require it. I'd guess a kiln or welder would require it since they're likely not nearly permanently plugged in. I think if you hard-wired them that you wouldn't need to GFCI protect them. Though I don't think either appliance would have issues if GFCI protected. An EVSE might, since it's also a GFCI, but if you're using a quality modern GFCI breaker, I don't think you'll get nuisance trips like you might with GFCIs from the 80s.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Keith!

[@robertcapetola3986]

Bill, in a previous channel you made mention of a plastic tool invented by Warren Tarbell that was used to dress wires in the box. Can you tell me where to purchase this tool?

[@SparkyChannel]

VOLTCLAW-12 Nonconductive Electrical Wire Pliers: Amazon: amzn.to/3oaMNEp

[@ronh9384]

@@SparkyChannel Bill do you have the link to the video that used this tool? Thanks for your time. 😊 Ron

[@scott_meyer]

Should one check screw tightness on outlets on a regular basis? A few weeks ago I replaced a broken weather cover on an outside outlet. I checked the screws while I had the circuit deenergized. Each screw took about 1/8 th of a turn to snug up. So I decided to check all of the outlets in the garage GFI chain. GFI outlet was tight, 2nd one was ok, 3rd one was loose on the neutral side. I wonder how many other outlets in the house are that way? House was built in 2005.

[@kenbrown2808]

hard to say whether they loosened due to expansion and contraction of the conductor, or if they just weren't set properly. I've seen 50 year old connections still as tight as they day they were made up, and I've seen much younger connections that could be snugged up.

[@scott_meyer]

@@kenbrown2808 It's all copper. My assumption is they weren't fully tight at installation.

[@kenbrown2808]

@@scott_meyer copper is still ductile. it's nowhere near as bad as small gauge aluminum, but it can still compress in connectors.

[@rupe53]

@@kenbrown2808 ... I'm going with "not set properly" and I will tell you how I came to this conclusion. In my job as a generator tech one of my duties is to double check everything when starting a new unit. After almost 25 years I have gotten to know my electrical subcontractors and I also know who works alone versus who works as a team. 9 times out of 10 the wires are tight on one end but not the other, which tells me different guys have a different feel for what's tight, or it's in an odd corner and the guy used his left hand so not snug to the same level. IOW, same material, bought at the same time, installed at the same time, and used under the same conditions, what's left? Yeah, must be "limp wrist Larry" the electrician on a Friday afternoon.

[@wim0104]

12AWG is hard to screw down. we once found a whole neutral bar heated up because of somebodies badly trained apprentice. it did work good enough for 2 years, until the new dryer showed up. I'm in favor of torque drivers & heatmapping.

[@CantKillMe]

there no way a welder can run on one of them I have tryed it and it pops them all the time

[@philiphorner31]

So no more welding. We don't work in Josef Stolin's America.

[@wim0104]

@@philiphorner31 ffs. just by a modern welder.

[@CantKillMe]

@@wim0104 I am a fab welder I run welders all the time and like my pops said if it not brock dont replace them they cost to much to thaw them out the door and get new ones

[@WOLF-tw7nx]

Lwrongo been doing it for decades

[@rogerhodges7656]

Does this mean that chargers for Electric Vehicles need ground failt protection?

[@bmoulas]

I installed all of my EVSE's with direct wiring to avoid figuring this out. I have 3, one is a Chargepoint Home 50 and it's supplied by a 70A breaker, I wanted to future proof as much as I could. A also have an Emporia and a JuiceBox 40. The Emporia and JuiceBox are with 50A breakers, but again all 3 are direct wired, no NEMA outlets.

[@WahooNo2]

I put mine on a 60 amp GFCI spa box and I use the outlet to charge my car and also split the power to two 20 amp outlets for power tools etc.

[@jamminwrenches860]

I really hate the high failure rates of GFCI breakers. Seems like some last a few months, others a few years but way sooner than they should they go bad and trip the fault protection even with nothing attached. 15 bucks for a regular breaker and almost 200 for GFCI that only lasts a year or two at most. I have had a few still going fine but the majority fail.

[@court2379]

And what you find is the GFCI goes in for the inspection, and comes out for the real world. Or so I hear...

[@willschultz5452]

@@court2379 Yes, Exactly what happens. My customers want that done all the time they buy the GFCI's and arc fault breakers and after the inspection they go back to the store 😂. They say I'm not spending thousands of dollars on breakers when I can spend $100

[@zandemen]

Can you please describe any steps I need to take to make a circuit safe, as described; 50A breaker with 8/3AWG to 14-50 outlet with extension cord to outbuilding. Outbuilding has a 14-50 inlet wired to distribution panel. Do I need a GFCI breaker for this circuit in my main distribution panel, and do I need to ground the sub panel? Should I also have a disconnect in the subpanel even if it's protected and possible to disconnect from the main distribution panel?

[@Sparkchaser1]

Anyone that tells you how to make it “safe” is not an electrician.

[@kh8655]

Yes subpanels need to be grounded, and it needs to be grounded to the main distribution panel's ground/neutral bar. (Make sure grounds and neutrals in the subpanel are on their own separate bars. They are only together in the main distribution panel) I'm assuming the outbuilding is a type of garage which are required to have GFCI, so yes if you can get GFCI do it Any subpanel, that holds more than 6 circuits, and is not in the same building requires a main disconnect Hope this helps a bit

[@Sparkchaser1]

@@kh8655 did you catch the extension cord reference?

[@cdw143]

8/3 is only rated 40 Amps, you need 6/3 with ground for that circuit

[@kh8655]

@@Sparkchaser1 yeah I can read... It's not like I can see exactly what he's doing, so I just gave a general idea of what's right that would hopefully help

[@spelunkerd]

Noobie here. If the welder uses an arm of the input to run some of their electronics for 120V use, there must be an imbalance of current between the two input arms. Some of the neutral current will cancel because it is opposite phase, so it won't be as simple as comparing input to neutral wire output like a normal GFCI. Is the GFCI at the breaker smart enough to recognize that and not cause nuisance tripping?

[@albeit65]

DISCLAIMER- ONLY FOR DISCUSSION. So, if a separate part of the device required another leg, I think you would have to run a 120/240 circuit such as in a dryer or range.

[@jack_brooks]

I wondered the same thing, so I looked up the Siemen's GFCI (SIE_SS_GFCI.pdf) wiring diagram and it states "NOTE: Load neutral does not have to be connected.". It shows in the diagram that it doesn't connect anything in the breaker. The breaker only appears to look at the two hot lines which would make sense, because otherwise you would have the problem you were describing.

[@MY-bw2nb]

You don't need to worry about that or try to overthink it. Your welder does not need any additional wiring you just plug in your 240v 50 a plug into outlet the machine is already wired to get 120 volts off 1 leg the electronics power draw is negligible and will not cause an imbalance. That would mean you couldn't make coffee and use your stove at the same time because you might upset the balance stove are pretty much the same as welders still a double pole 240 volt breaker they just have a neutral along with ground but they still get the power from the same 2 legs . 240 volt appliances or equipment balance loads better than 120 volt appliances or equipment because there is potential to a bunch of appliances plugged in to same leg of panel even if they are on separate breakers if you look at a breaker panel if you were too only need 120 volts for every thing you own the panels are designed in a way the legs are staggered if you have a row of 120 volt breakers breakers 13579 is on one leg breakers 2468 is on other leg so now if you were to say run breaker 13579 all in the kitchen and breakers 2468 in the bedroom this would cause an unbalanced load because all the kitchen appliances have high demand whereas the bedroom would use low demand like tv bedside lights alarm clock this is why breakers are organized by load demand and 240 volt breakers use 2 breaker slots 1 for each leg so no don't worry about imbalance in your welder.

[@MY-bw2nb]

Go back and watch this guy's vid at 4.25 it states that gfci is only required in garage that the floor is at or below grade which means damp location like bathroom and outdoor outlets if your garage floor is above grade gfci breakers not required because this is considered a dry location

[@spelunkerd]

@@jb9072 Excellent response, thank you.

[@awesomestorage451]

i have a table saw with a 6 15 R plug and receptacle but i just moved to a new place and was wondering if i switch the plug end on the saw can use my saw with a already installed NEMA 6-50 receptacle? So basically can I use a 9 amp 220 v saw with 50 amp 220 v outlet

[@Sparkeycarp]

You need to protect your saw with a circuit breaker of the correct size. Being 15 amps.

[@funnlivinit]

@@Sparkeycarp Circuit breakers are designed to protect the wiring between the panel and the receptacle. Not the device that is plugged into it. The saw should have it's own breaker built into the motor to protect that. However, that leaves the wires in the cord and leading to the motor susceptible to overcurrent in the event of a short circuit within the machine. It is legal to use a circuit that is rated higher, but not always wise.

[@andrewt9204]

Like the other guys have said, it would be wise to put in a 15a breaker somewhere on that saw. It's likely that a dead short in the motor would trip the 50 amp breaker, but that's not something I would count on. However... plugging in your 20 watt cell phone charger into a regular wall outlet is analogous to this case. If something starts shorting inside the phone charger, it's probably going to start on fire before tripping the breaker.

[@mojunk19]

And make sure that you get the right GFCI breaker. There’s a 120 - 240 2 pole breaker and there’s a 240 2 pole breaker. The difference is that one has neutral capability and the other is for 240 only. Sounds confusing but it the difference in if you’re going to need a neutral or not.

[@1768ify]

I don’t think that there is a neutral for NEMA 6, only for NEMA 14. Correct me if I am wrong, and thank you for pointing out the difference.

[@mojunk19]

@@1768ify it’s not a code issue. But if you are going to need a neutral for your equipment like if it has a lite or pump or any accessories that uses 120 volts the 240 volt breaker is not what I would buy. If you take a meter on a 240 gfic breaker from one leg to ground it will trip that breaker.

[@SparkyChannel]

@@1768ify Mike, you're correct.

[@FlyGuy2000]

The code only applies to a garage with a floor "at or below grade level". If the garage is on a slab two inches higher than the surrounding driveway, is it considered to be above grade level and exempt from the GFCI requirement?

[@danrich6448]

No. #2 says Garages (period) and also accessory buildings with floors at or blah blah blah.... It's 2 separate situations.

[@dontbanmebrodontbanme5403]

Dan already answered your question, so I'll just add one more thing. Check your state to determine which year's code they follow. For example, where I live, we follow 2017's code, which doesn't require GFCI protection. In my case, I'm installing a NEMA 14-50 outlet for my car. From what I've read, EVSE equipment seems to have issues with GFCI breakers and lands up tripping it way too often. Just an fyi.

[@ThatOldMan2112]

@@danrich6448 That's not how language works for codes and legal writings. The period you refer to is not there. Nor is a comma, which is what would usually separate individual items or phrases. They did mess the wording up a little by adding "also" in there. But because "garages" and "accessory buildings" are included in the same clause all wording in that clause applies to both. Had they worded it "...garages (,) and accessory buildings that have a floor..." then the garage would be separated from the wording about the floor level - but they did not, so it is not. However, I am doubting any inspector is going to consider a 4" slab which is laying on the ground but sticking 2" above it to actually be "above grade level", since it also sticks 2" below grade.

[@matheaujulien1400]

Thank you so much for your very well-explained videos! I do have a question. I recently bought a house in WA state, and was excited to learn that the previous owners had installed a 240V receptacle for their EV. In preparation for purchasing an EV charger, I examined the installation and learned that it is a NEMA 6-50 receptacle and that it is on a dedicated 30 amp circuit. I am wondering if this conforms to code, since theoretically, the EV charger can try to pull 50 amps, which would trip the circuit. I figure that my options are to have the electrician switch out the receptacle to a 6-30 or make sure that the EV charger is set to only pull a maximum of 24 amps. Thank you!

[@snap-off5383]

Check the gauge of the wires INSIDE the receptacle (turn the breaker off first) It may have conductors a size already rated for more amps. The nema 6-50 receptacle is rated for 50 amps, if the wires feeding the plug from the panel are big enough to handle 50 amps already, you'd just need to change the breaker out for a bigger 50 amp breaker. I think you need 8 AWG gauge wire or bigger (which would be awg 6 or awg 4 not awg 10 or awg 12, the bigger they are the smaller the wire guage.)

[@Martinko_Pcik]

I think it is ok to have the 6-50 overated receptacle since it is actually safer if it is designed to handle more power than the breaker and the wiring. I see no problem with programming the charger with 25 A limit to avoid tripping your breaker while still allowing safe charging of your car.

[@bryankrall8302]

They word it like that because people forget about 277V, 277 is above 250 volts phase to ground. Also, the only time you should need bo ding bushing as well is for 277V. Thanks again Sparky!

[@RB-xv4si]

That’s only when entering a cabinet with concentric or eccentric KOs and you’re not using the largest KO.

[@bryankrall8302]

@@RB-xv4si agreed

[@rupe53]

Bryan ... 277 is also part of 3 phase so another section in the code book.

[@jfbeam]

Show me a residential drop that's not 240 split phase. (In the US) I can get whatever I want in commercial and industrial sites, but only 240 for residential.

[@rupe53]

@@jfbeam ... oh, there's still a few 30 amp 110 volt (only) homes around, but they are dropping like dead flies these days.

[@robertwikeljr-1522]

Ground fault no problem . What I don't understand is ground (or neutral) wire location is at top of "6-50" receptacle (or even 120 v outlets) if plug pulls away from outlet any contact hits ground before hot - WHY is plug cord always coming off side of neutral (ground 120 v) so cord must loop UP before going down to appliances. No one has been able to explain that to me, instructor just shrugged and said that is how they are made .

[@jgoddard0757]

The interpretation that matters is your AHJ. After all, by code, that’s part of their job.

[@SparkyChannel]

You're 100% correct. But if it's important it's good to have a code book handy.

[@jgoddard0757]

Agreed. If I have any questions or code isn’t crystal clear I’ll talk with my AHJ and get his input beforehand. BTW I very much like this channel. Thanks for putting the time & effort to make it really good. :)

[@SparkyChannel]

@@jgoddard0757 Thanks Jim!

[@SparkyChannel]

The reality is that different inspectors and AHJ's will interpret these codes in different ways sometimes and these discussions such as you see in these comment sections will prepare us for the same discussions we might have with inspectors and AHJ's. (authority having jurisdiction)

[@farmerjim-fat-man-do]

Some AHJ have interesting interpretations of the code. Varies between inspectors in the same jurisdiction. Best to know who is coming for inspection and make it the way they like it.

[@richardcranium5839]

i think nec didnt consider a 240 2 wire +ground as compared to a 240 3 wire +ground. since the 3 wire used on some dryers and ranges internally split the legs into unbalanced circuits where as 2 wire circuits are almost aways balanced now days.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Richard!

[@jkbrown5496]

The 240v 3 wire + Ground GFCI would have to sense current between the two hots as well as current on the neutral then sum them to see if there was an imbalance. Probably why it costs $80. I suppose you could wrap all three around the sense toroid and only generate a trip if there's an imbalance. I certainly wouldn't want to put an AFCI on an arc welder. I doubt their sensing algorithms are that good.

[@timothydillon6421]

@@jkbrown5496 what about a dryer that uses 240 heating element but 120 fan and 120 tumbler motor?

[@spencerjoplin2885]

Where can I buy a 251V receptacle?

[@Nick-bh1fy]

Home Depot or any home improvement store

[@jfbeam]

Not in-stock, btw. (NEMA 7's) I can _order_ them from anywhere.

[@HBSuccess]

😂 good one.

[@playnationtoday]

Also remember, If the load (welder, kiln) is “hardwired” (if that’s allowed by the manufacturer) it doesn’t need to be GFCI protected, based on 2020.

[@playnationtoday]

The GFCI requirements in 210.8A are for receptacles only!

[@billywhitener6202]

So does it need to be (4) wire or or how does it work with out a neutral to connect to the breaker

[@l.george7517]

Billy, Neutral not needed, but available if appliance needs it.

[@billywhitener6202]

@@l.george7517 the 240 welder receptacle requires only (3)3 wires So the GFCI breaker requires a neutral/ for it to be correct or not ?

[@thefritzy81]

@@billywhitener6202 a gfci does not need a neutral load to provide protection.

[@GuyFromJupiter]

Would a welder not cause a ton of nuisance trips on a GFCI breaker? It only takes a 5mA current differential to trip a GFCI circuit, so running up to 50A through a circuit that is likely to have a direct connection to the ground seems like a bad use case for GFCI protection.

[@andrewt9204]

It didn't for me, although mine is only 120v, but I assume that doesn't matter. It did however keep tripping an AFCI breaker that I had to use one time. I'm guessing the inverter or the huge amount of electrical noise tripped arc detection. If your welder's ground electrode has a better connection to the work piece than the ground, it shouldn't be an issue for GFCI. Which is a good thing, bad grounding on your workpiece will make for bad or inconsistent welds.

[@SixTwoHemi]

Exactly

[@saulgoodman2018]

When in doubt, just use a GFCI. It won't hurt.

[@SparkyChannel]

Sounds good!

[@DeltaCo7175]

so without a neutral i assume you attach the ground wire from the cord to the neutral on the breaker ?

[@bryankrall8302]

You don’t need to hook a neutral to the breaker because there is not neutral so the phase conductors should only be carrying the current. but I’m pretty sure the breaker neutral will need connected so it functions.

[@jrmcferren]

You leave the neutral open in this case. The Hot wires provide the entire circuit in this case. The ground is there for it's safety purposes, however with a GFCI a minor fault that may not pass enough current to trip the breaker will now be enough to trip the GFCI section.

[@FKNSENDIT]

In understandable terms. In a house to get 220 volts there's 3 wires 2 of them are hot an usually the bare copper goes to ground on water heater, welder , air conditioner unit. A oven will sometimes have 4 wires /3 wires , dryer should have 4 wires red,black,(white nutural ) an ground. But keep in mind a wire knows no color so a tester is where an electrician comes in handy ,this is all most comin but not 100% best to hire an experienced person. I've been in houses where electricians understand electricity too much an they ll pull nuturals from anywhere in the house to get the device working so tracing the wires with continuity is a good idea an yes it can get very time consuming hope this helps u .

[@kenbrown2808]

no. you never connect an equipment grounding conductor to the neutral terminal on the breaker. that defeats the function of the breaker. without a neutral, you don't connect the absent neutral.

[@Press_start544]

hi bill can you reopload the video on how to wire a doorbell

[@SparkyChannel]

I don't have that one anymore, sorry.

[@jkbrown5496]

@@SparkyChannel With so many starting to wire up LED light strips and such, a video on the low voltage NEC requirements might be useful. I see so many people looking to use far in excess of the 5 amp limit on 12v DC self-limiting supply wiring without considering the need for the DC circuit protection requirements when you exceed the limit.

[@avoinc7707]

i understand the need for gfis near a water source. don’t see the need for 60 amp garage receptacles to need it. i’ve seen many gfis nearly burn down structures. forcing them onto high amperage equipment is scary to me.

[@KevinCoop1]

The reason is because in garages and shops they have concrete or dirt floors. Both of which are grounded surfaces. So you are standing or kneeling on a grounded surface and being shocked possibility is very high.

[@peltiereric6497]

That GFCI stuff in the garage makes sense for the average home but it is extremely problematic for for certain types of machines that a lot of people have in their garage now. Over the last 10 years the amount of people who do metalworking and have machines like 2x72” grinders or milling machines that use VFD’s can’t have a GFCI anywhere in that circuit because the VFD will create feedback that will trip another GFCI outlet elsewhere in that Breakers Circuit even if the machine is plugged into a standard non GFCI outlet

[@schlomoshekelstein908]

good to know. so eschew the GFCI i guess

[@mikekiser7799]

Some vfds have a setting for use with gfis. I’m currently running three KB vfds on gfci circuits with no problem. A bit more noise is the downside.

[@randallcalhoun6604]

Could you use 12/2 with ground wire to a 240v 20 amp receptacle and protect with gfci 2 pole breaker? Or does that require 12/3 wg?

[@sapreaper]

Only 12/2 if the receptacle is 3 wire. If 4 wire, you need 12/3

[@wim0104]

what catches me out is the "single phase". that does include 250V 2-legged (aka split phase). so I think the code says: do it!

[@derekparent752]

In other countries and on some machinery 1 phase is 220, which leads you to 440 volts between phases. It’s best to interpret Single phase as 120 Volts or 347 volts. I never agreed with the common saying of 240 single phase in North America, as it really is 240 two or double phase. Confuses a lot of apprentices.

[@wim0104]

@@derekparent752 ii's not just a common saying, or sloppiness: it is 240v split phase, it is not 2 phases. physically, it is a single phase system. practically, it's everything like a 2 phase system, but with a weird phase shift (aka, not the regular 120degree).

[@wim0104]

if you look at the transformer, it is literally one phase, split in half. the neutral comes from the middle of the secondary winding. seriously Tesla weird.

[@derekparent752]

@@wim0104 yes, I know that, and I never call it or teach it as 2 phase, but for simple understanding to a person wiring a stove or dryer they have a hard tme understanding 240 “single phase” I personally would prefer we call it split phase as this is a definite deference between 120 single phase and 240 single phase. So from now on I think if someone asks about the subject I’ll use Split phase, and then spend 10 minutes explaining it. 🤷‍♂️

[@wim0104]

@@derekparent752 yep, been there many times, both receiving & dishing out: "practically speaking, it is a 2 phase system" and "they're called legs, they're not phases".

[@Progrocker70]

$80 not cheap for a GFCI breaker. Perhaps the kiln manufacturers could just put the GFCI in the plug like they do with hair dryers and room air conditioners now.

[@thomasmarable6818]

They can put a gfci in the plug but still have to have gfci on the outlet per code. The code does not cover whats being plugged in. I hard wired my welder into a disconnect, no gfci required

[@Adam-bz3ts]

Is there a power strip or PDU that I can plug into this outlet (NEMA 6-50)? I would like to connect multiple computer devices to this outlet

[@Sparkeycarp]

No, you need a neutral. The obvious thing to do is convert the 50 amp outlet to a 20 amp GFCI outlet and move one leg to the neutral buss in the main panel. Then you can plug in your power strip. Alternatively you can replace the NEMA 6-50 with a small sub panel and bring a neutral to it.

[@Adam-bz3ts]

@@Sparkeycarp thank you so much for your reply. what I need to do is get a 30 Amp circuit with an L6-30P plug. Not sure if I have to run a whole new line for this though

[@v137832258974]

Most larger PDUs are on the locking 6-30 plug, like you mentioned. Unfortunately I haven't seen a single PDU that uses 6-50 connection, and I've been looking at a lot lately from APC, Tripp Lite, and others... What you need then is an ultra short professionaly-factory-produced converter "extension cord" that's only ~a foot long, that drops from a 6-50 plug end to a locking 6-30 (newly provided) recep end. I've seen a lot of these ~1ft converter cords on extremely large guage wire, often at heavy equipment specialty stores (like welders), generator stores, or in the RV industry; think about other domains that may be similar and maybe you can find just the right one (they're rare). While well-intentioned, unfortunately GW's comment is entirely wrong: You do not need a neutral wire for 240v PDUs from APC, TL, and on... the 6-20 and 6-30 plugs/sockets have 2 hots and a ground; they don't use neutral... (perhaps he was thinking about 4-prong items, or doesn't know about 240v datacenter PDUs....) These PDUs targeting 240-only PSUs -- for increased DC conversion efficiency (which you should be aiming for) -- usually only run on 3prong 240-only power; so no 4 prong and no neutral, as a result. The "obvious thing to do" is to professionally convert the 50amp outlet into a locking L6-30R (~$30 @HD or Lowes), using the existing wire and breaker infrasturcture w/o modification (wire spec'd for 50A outlet is properly protected by the 50A breaker, the new plug won't be tho, but your PDU will have an array of staged breakers @

[@StewCal65]

So this is new for 2020?

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, the shaded areas at 2:47 are new for 2020.

[@blake4844]

A welder doesn't use a reference to neutral. So that expensive breaker isn't protecting personnel from anything beyond a standard breaker would IMO

[@qball3835]

Sure it protects personnel. 240 doesn't use neutral in normal usage, its not just a welder thing. The breaker is still going to detect an imbalance between the split phase and will trip if it out of balance between 4-6 mA.

[@blake4844]

@@qball3835thanks, i wasn't thinking about imbalance.

[@jfbeam]

Sure it will. "What goes out must come back" is the same for hot-hot as a hot-neutral. My only question is why that breaker appears to have a neutral leg. (I assume that's for some oddball case, like a system with dual 120v power supplies???)

[@qball3835]

@@jfbeam No, as of the 2020 NEC it will be the norm for most all breakers now. It is an AFCI breaker. While I don't believe in normal usage the pigtail would be used, I could see maybe some scenarios that if there is a fault (GFI or Arc) current may need to flow back through the panel neutral.

[@kc9scott]

@@jfbeam For the breaker pictured, my guess is the 3 output screws include a neutral so that, if needed, you could wire it to a receptacle that has a neutral.

[@jack_brooks]

So this would mean that you would have to run your welder in your living room if you wanted to avoid paying 4x as much for a breaker. I'm going to have to move my couch.

[@SparkyChannel]

LOL! Good one!

[@MindKontrolleAmerica]

I love a good bonfire 🔥

[@boriskarloff598]

The wife's gonna be pissed when I get grinding dust all over the white rug.

[@KevinCoop1]

That would work but, the smoke detectors will get very annoying!

[@JimSpence]

So basically to use my parents welding outlet, nema 6-30R to charge my Tesla using the power adapter with its 14-50P is not possible, even with an adapter/“dog bone” etc? Sorry if this has been covered in the almost 400 comments

[@AsHellBored]

Possible, but if and when your Tesla draws more than 30A, the breaker will pop. And swapping the breaker is a fire Hazzard

[@Sparkeycarp]

@@AsHellBored You can set the Tesla to not over draw the breaker.

[@Sparkeycarp]

I am an electrician certified by Tesla. I install Tesla chargers all the time. They do not have a terminal for a neutral wire.

[@a..d5518]

@@Sparkeycarp And don't the Tesla chargers have a built-in GFCI?

[@snap-off5383]

you need to pull or open the breaker, then open the outlet/receptacle and look at the gauge of the conductors, to see if they're capable of more amps if so you can change the breaker and outlet to a 14-50 The breaker, conductors, and outlet must be rated at the higher amp capacity, and will work together at that higher power level. If the wires are already maxed out at 30 amps, then you're relegated to replacing them or limiting the charger's draw.

[@pointedspider]

I love the break downs! Otherwise it would be like this!!! Tonight on Dateline: a young woman, murdered inside her own house.... Was it her boyfriend..... Yes it was!!!

[@SparkyChannel]

LOL! Good one! I know exactly what you mean. I love that these videos cause discussion. I don't even mind people saying I'm wrong as long as they give a good argument. :)

[@rrknl5187]

@@SparkyChannel That's how we learn!!

[@SparkyChannel]

@@rrknl5187 Exactly!

[@JohnSmith-lw2bm]

If everything needs a arc fault or gfci on it, why do we even have regular breakers still??? I am surprised big government hasn’t mandated them away like the incandescent 60w light bulb.

[@wim0104]

give it 10 years? all breakers in western europe have an extra gfci-like device on them. but on the other hand it took 'em 50 years to mandate metal breaker panels...

[@wim0104]

we're still RMA'ing older AFCI's by the dozen...

[@philiphorner31]

Trump got rid of the 60w light bulb ban

[@SuperVstech]

Cause, if there is no PLUG/SOCKET, the GFCI is not required...

[@Yarba]

The National Electrical Code is created by and for insurance companies to mitigate loss, that's why everything has an Underwriters laboratories sticker or it isn't code legal. The only input big government has is to slow down the rate of progress.

[@dukeraul624]

I’ll be hardwiring my electric dryers and ovens

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent.

[@MY-bw2nb]

Read the whole thing section 2 says if your floor is at grade or below grade for garages which have potential for flooding if your floor is above grade it is NOT necessary. Which means at or below grade is considered a damp location which is same rule for bathroom and outdoor outlets. You even showed the code and the paragraphs below but you did not read the entirety of paragraphs before interpreting the code ⚠️⚠️⚠️⚠️‼

[@JNaimoli]

The text relating to “below grade level” applies to accessory buildings. Read 210.8(A)(1) again. it says Garages And not Garages Or.... which means garages are required.

[@brentoconnor6127]

@Comrade Vlad exactly. A and B that have the expressed condition. They expressed condition applies to both subjects of the sentence. Unfortunately, building inspectors don’t seem to be English majors, and don’t read the code that way.

[@benchociej2435]

@Comrade Vlad gfcis won't trip on the primary side of a transformer if the secondary side leaks

[@benchociej2435]

@@brentoconnor6127 it's vague, is the problem. they should have put "garages" on their own line for clarity if that's what they meant

[@ggrogit]

A 240v, 50A kiln that is hard wired requires no gfci protection? No receptacle...right?

[@HBSuccess]

Correct

[@Genesislights]

these receptacles has no neutral wire, so no neutral goes in the GFCI breaker then, only 2 hots.

[@rogerf3622]

Many devices that may be plugged into that outlet (car chargers, pressure washers, etc) already have GFCI built into them. Plugging a GFCI protected device into a GFCI receptacle will cause false triggering. That would be a nightmare for a car charger. Also note the subjective term “easily accessible”. If the plug can’t be easily reached like behind a dryer or high on a wall, GFCI is not required. Also note that local codes can vary greatly. You may find in your location that GFCI is not required.

[@Krankie_V]

It says the GFCI reset has to be accessible. In the case of a 240v circuit that's in the breaker panel not on the device itself.

[@ewicky]

"Plugging a GFCI protected device into a GFCI receptacle will cause false triggering" No, it won't. Literally millions of GFCI-protected hair dryers are plugged into already-GFCI protected bathroom receptacles every day with zero false tripping.

[@rogerf3622]

Probably a poor choice of words on my part. I should have said “connecting”. You are right @Erik Wickstrom, the mere act of plugging a 120v GFCI device into a GFCI protected device usually won’t cause a trigger. BUT having a GFCI connected to another GFCI will cause false triggering at some time. This is exactly why the instructions, for example on the Tesla wall connector, say explicitly don’t do it. Also NEC says don’t do it. The wall connector (what some call a charger) provides the GFCI protection by itself and you won’t waste $100+ on a GFCI breaker that is not needed and will cause you suffering in the future. @Krankie V I think this is what your are saying. A car connector (charger) has built-in GFCI and will either be auto-reset or reset by turning power off then on at the breaker. Some may have a side button to press.

[@anthonyelectric6045]

Good explanation Bill. Man electric work is getting expensive with all this protection etc. But it’s a good thing overall.

[@SparkyChannel]

Hi! Yes, some of the 240v GFCI breakers are well over $100. But yes, it is a good thing overall!

[@crazypete3759]

At or below grade garage... Ok, my next shop is going to be elevated so no need for GFCI breakers!

[@Fix_It_Again_Tony]

Seems more cost effective to get a GFCI breaker, but it's your money.

[@a..d5518]

@CrazyPete I suspect you are being a bit sarcastic, after all an elevated garage would be quite expensive, but if your shop is not in your garage, then you'd need to check the code requirements for said 50A receptacle in a "shop".

[@av1204]

@@a..d5518 i disagree... grade is not the height of garages.... most structures are above grade. Maybe only a few inches but they are above grade. Look at architectural plans and they will show a dotted grade line below garage level

[@snap-off5383]

That's not what it says at all. It says "garages AND accessory buildings with below grade floors." The below grade floor part is in ADDITION to garages.

[@Krankie_V]

But it says "with a floor located at or below grade level" which to me indicates it's really only needed in locations which can become wet, unless there's another stipulation in that section. It sure sounds like if the floor is above the ground level, the GFCI protection isn't required.

[@snap-off5383]

There was a big AND before that, "Garages AND accessory buildings with floors located. . ."

[@Krankie_V]

@@snap-off5383 so? It still says with a floor located below grade. The type of building isn't what I'm talking about and doesn't make a difference.... Like yeah, most garages are gonna have a floor at grade level, but if the building had a raised floor for whatever reason, then that requirement wouldn't apply.

[@snap-off5383]

@@Krankie_V Yeah when I say bring your books *and also* your crayons that are green, that doesn't mean only books that are green. Its plain English. If its a garage, the floor level doesn't matter. It could be on the 40th floor.

[@Krankie_V]

@@snap-off5383 nah, if it meant all garages regardless, there would be a semicolon or a comma, or the specific word "any" or "all". Without those identifiers, it is grouping garages and accessory buildings together and the qualifier is the FLOOR. That is how this official stuff is always written.

[@snap-off5383]

@@Krankie_V Yeah if "also" didn't mean what it means, then sure. Except it does have meaning. A specific one. Maybe grab a dictionary. "If" my aunt had nads she'd be my uncle. It says what it says, and logically parses as all garages.

[@sonofthunder.]

guess i better find a 50 square d gfci breaker for my back patio,welder receptacle ,i had a double 50a regular breaker

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, especially for a patio location.

[@sonofthunder.]

@@SparkyChannel its covered patio w roof,now im wondering which breaker square d will fit,and price

[@sonofthunder.]

i see some w white curly nuetral wire,about 60-100bucks,...

[@vicktorpatriot1430]

@@SparkyChannel why if his outlet on the patio was installed prior to NEC requirements of it to be GFCI protected?

[@Noah-qt3rq]

@@vicktorpatriot1430 receptacles outside are also required to be GFCI protected

[@jamesyoung4633]

So what your saying is every outlet in a residential home needs a gfi or arcf in a because most everything is 115v to ground.

[@andrewt9204]

Yeah pretty much every receptacle & lighting circuit needs one or the other or both for 2020 code. Combo GFI/AFCI breakers are becoming more common because of it. Luckily the prices on those are roughly the same as single mode breakers. For siemens, the combo ones are actually $5 cheaper than AFCI only ones. At least at home depot they were.

[@micw8422]

The part "and supplied with single phase, 150v or less". doesn't that imply even though you have a nema 14-50R, if you have a 50amp 240v breaker, it would not apply. What am I reading wrong here? Because of the GFCI requirement, I'm going to go with a Tesla direct connect wall charger to a regular eaton br240 circuit breaker. Thanks Sparky, each video is very informative.

[@MikesDIY]

You’re leaving out the critical part. It says “150 volts or less to ground.” Both legs of your 240v breaker will have 120v to ground. You will only get 240v from one hot leg to the other. That’s how I read it anyway.

[@AnthonyBrusca]

The Tesla charger has GFCI built into it, so you're GFCI protected hard wire anyway.

[@mtm2906]

From what I understand that resident home have 240V single phase and center tap with neutral wire to get 110V. I think you are correct that 240v does not require GFCI.

[@snap-off5383]

@@mtm2906 neutral is bonded to ground, so 240 produces +120 _to ground_ and -120 _to ground_. The _to ground_ part of that means it does apply to 240V receptacles.