So uhh...why does EVERYONE love Shadowdark?

All right, all right… it's 2025 and so I figure it might finally be safe for me to make a video analyzing the ShadowDark "phenomenon." Now read that again - I'm actually not reviewing the game itself, but instead I'm offering some THEORIES as to why or how a single game swept not only four ENNIE awards (including best overall game), but also scored a hat trick of KZbin reviews, and broke $1 million in sales in one year. I mean… you gotta at least admit that that's kind of wild, right?
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/ @amanisalone
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[@TheArcaneLibrary]

Hey Man Alone! This was a very thoughtful and interesting video. I too will always wonder at what exactly made Shadowdark successful. I’m not sure even I know the answer, and I have the benefit of the most firsthand knowledge of all possible aspects. I do know there is a big and happy audience of people who genuinely love playing and creating for the game. I get to see them at cons, on Discord, on Reddit, in my inbox, on KZbin, etc. It’s hard to imagine they are in some way faking it, zombified by marketing, or utterly without agency in their own interests due to memetic desire. The reservation I have with memetic desire is that it seems like an unfalsifiable hypothesis. How could one demonstrate that an interest is *not* due to memetic desire? I think it’d be really difficult. Culture war is an interesting thing to assess. I myself am very removed from all of that and don’t talk about any of it or incorporate it into what I do. I think most of my audience appreciates that and feels the same way! -Kelsey

[@amanisalone]

Thank you Kelsey, what a kind and thoughtful response. Even if I did not quite hit the target in any of my hypotheses presented here, I hope that - at the very least - you can tell that I did my best to handle the consideration of this topic with care and at least some degree of intellectual rigor. I also hope that I was clear enough in my assertion that one can call Shadowdark many things, but you cannot call it a bad game, lest you wish to earn the label of punk and/or hater (and/or liar). I also hope you know that I very much meant it when I said I hope you continue to find success and joy in this creative endeavor of which you are so very talented talented. It's easy to make videos waxing philosophical, it's much harder to create a game that will be on bookshelves and tables for probably the rest of both of our lives at the very least. As far as the culture war stuff, I I wish to enthusiastically co-sign your sentiments. The world is confusing, I try to focus on lifting people up and keeping an open heart, and from everything I've seen from you I have a feeling you try to do the same. Thanks for stopping by, come back anytime. -Man Alone

[@TheArcaneLibrary]

@@amanisalone Absolutely! I’m serious when I say I appreciated your analysis and that you took Shadowdark seriously and treated it (and me) respectfully, even if it’s not the game for you at the end of the day. If most of the game’s critics were even half as thoughtful and well-considered (heck, even just considering several hypotheses as you have done instead of only one), I think we’d have a much more nuanced world of analysis out there! All angles of Shadowdark’s existence are worth scrutinizing, even if it’s just to find insights that can strengthen other indie creators as they release their own work. That’s the power of good faith discourse, and I’m very grateful you extended me that effort. I also cracked the heck up about the EZD6 razzing. Fantastic game, and Scotty is a gem. I hope everyone buys a copy of it and enjoys his brilliance!

[@captainnolan5062]

@@amanisaloneI think the timing of the game's release amid all of the D & D controversies was very important to this game's success, along with the fact that it is easy for 5e players to switch to it, along with the marketing hype, along with a number of other unique factors like who the creator is, a number of other KZbinrs helping promote the game, a well laid out and clean design, fantastic cover art, ease of play, not to mention the fact that Kelsey already had a following of fans (from her KZbin channel and users of the other content she had already created). It was kind of the perfect storm for the game. The torch mechanic in 0e D & D was built in to the game (this is not a new invention). The carousing mechanic is nothing new either, spending your gold (wasting it) to get XP is an old mechanic. The funnel mechanic was also a feature of 0e D & D. Characters died like flies in the old days (I was there, I know). Like Man Alone (and apparently Kelsey herself) figuring out why this game has taken off to this extent (even given my list of factors) is still a bit of a mystery.

[@MagnificentDevil]

Play Shadowdark with a group and you'll understand. IF you want to play a D&D style game, that accommodates old or new players, that puts pressure on the players and creates tension, that then leans into that by adding speedy play that flows quickly, it does a great job. It isn't any one mechanic, it is the combination of mechanics. The light mechanic eliminates time-wasting analysis paralysis and circular arguments. The magic mechanics makes every spell casting risky. The monsters attacking in the dark makes the light source a constant target of monsters who hate the light. Even carousing just perpetuates the cycle. Everything is under constant pressure, the tension almost never lets up when in the dungeon, and players stay riveted. No one wanders off or checks their phone or loses interest when it isn't their turn. It is a tight, efficient, accurate torture device for PCs. Its good.

[@MagnificentDevil]

I don't usually play D&D/OSR games (I play a lot of games, almost none of which use classes or levels) and if I were going to play one long term, it would be DCC, but if I wanted to play a short campaign or a one shot, I'd use Shadowdark.

[@Jeromy1986]

I like the notion of solo gaming because you can use it to learn the game without the needing to get it via purely a read-through. I do know there is Solo Dark, so it's not NOT an intended use of this game. 😅

[@Beholderguitars]

Yes, this. Same here. Shadowdark is an excellent game and very well balanced with lots of room to make it your own. I started with Moldvay basic in 1982 and the people I play with now are all covid-era 5th edition players. As the DM, I introduced Shadowdark a year ago and most of my players prefer it now. Light, tense, agile and fast. It's a beautiful balance. That's the strength of the game and Kelsey is a monster adventure designer with many years of experience making 5e adventures well before Shadowdark. People don't play Shadowdark for some EDI reason, people play it because Kelsey gets what we want and she delivered. And she deserves credit for that.

[@jcraigwilliams70]

The tomato soup made me laugh because every time someone says "What's so great about Shadowdark? There's nothing new in it," I use a cookie analogy. Basically, you can eat a cookie that is really good and better than other cookies, even though it's made of the same ingredients as every other cookie. The way the ingredients are mixed makes a difference.

[@MrDowntemp0]

1. Kelsey already had a following based on her career writing 5E adventures. That's part of what got her initial push into the algorithm. 2. You're comparing this to the whole breadth of TTRPGs (Which is more than fair). But if you compare it just to OSR, and DnD clones and editions, you might see why it stands out so much amongst THAT crowd. The writing is simple and efficient. Compared to other DnD games where when you want to remember a mechanic, you might need to go through a lot of page turning, and reading of multiple paragraphs. 3. The atmosphere is much closer to ODnD, but the mechanics closer to 5E. This isn't something most DnD clones attempt. They usually attempt to be really faithful to one edition or another. 4. It is very very DnD. But it has some unique stuff that is all really great. No single mechanic (like the torch timer) is in and of itself, groundbreaking. But the combination makes the experience more engaging. Spell failure, Non-Vancian magic, Random improvements every level. 5. The very curated list of spells covers pretty much all you need, without a bunch of frivolous stuff thats more fun to read than to play. Overall. I think Shadowdark fills a niche, and fills it well. But it just so happens that that niche is very very very big. Maybe in part because to a lot of people DnD is the only sort of TTRPG. For people who only have experience in that corner of the hobby , but are dissatisfied with the superhero feel instead of a dangerous feel, or with the tomes of mechanics and verbose reading required to get going. I think people who spend a LOT of time in that corner of the hobby will also recognize that Shadowdark takes the best bits of different DnD editions, mixed 'em, and trims all the fat. But its still a game suitable for big campaigns, not something that feels its more designed for one shots. Oh, and something that should also be pointed out, is that a lot of people stay in the OSR ecosystem, because they have so much material that's compatible with it. You can play your old DnD campaigns with shadowdark. It'd be a lot more difficult to adapt Keep on the Borderlands to an -entirely- different system. That's another reason why the audience for Shadowdark is bigger than if Kelsey came out with a dice pool system or some other major deviation form DnD norms.

[@amanisalone]

Yes, thank you for these thoughts. I am familiar with these arguments and I don't disagree with any of them. At the same time, I must admit that I don't think any of them are overwhelmingly compelling in a way that fully explains the massive surge of popularity for this game. However, as I stated in the end of the video, I think that it is many small reasons that - when taken cumulatively - do much to explain why the game is as successful and declaimed as it is. So maybe I'm taking your comment wrong; maybe you're not trying to convince me of anything, just adding further explanation. But I must say that these sorts of responses (that I saw on almost every discussion of ShadowDark that was not overwhelmingly positive) and the frequency that comments of this nature show up on ShadowDark threads and videos are a bit vexing to me. They feel defensive in a way that I'm not sure I'll ever understand. I am wondering if the insinuation that this game is appreciated for reasons other than purely for its mechanics seems to activate something in many people, but especially people in the OSR Community. I don't know if you're able to take what I just said and metabolize it as something other than me being confrontational with you, but if you are then I was wondering if you could like… run a diagnostic check on yourself right now to see if you feel defensive about what I said in the video, and if so, what exactly is it? My suspicion, which I am fairly certain will be taken offensively, is that people who stick with the OSR systems identify very strongly as being individuals who assess a game purely on its mechanical merit. That is to say, if somebody suggests that a game that all OSR people like has to do with something more than just "mechanics-as-written", it feels like a personal attack. As if I am saying that you are just as suggestible as those who buy whatever WOTC tells you to buy. I also want to add that, compared to some such comments, there's nothing you said here that felt angry or bullying or anything like that to me. Just that there are few games that I think could provoke one to invest the amount of time it takes to write a comment like you just did. If I, for example, said that I did not like another popular game like Into The Odd, I am not sure if these types of comments would be deemed worthy enough to write.

[@MrDowntemp0]

@@amanisalone Nah, I didn't read or watch anything here that felt like an attack. I'm here early 'cuz I'm subbed, and I use my youtube sub page instead of its home page to choose what to watch. I'm also not primarily a shadowdark or OSR player, although I do enjoy shadowdark more than most games in that space. You just seemed truly confused about its enormous popularity, and I thought I might provide a perspective you maybe didn't consider, particularly that of the large population of players who want something in the OSR/DnD space, but aren't ready to try something truly different like Savage Worlds or whatever. I think there's vastly more people interested in DnD/OSR games than there are interested in the broader TTRPG world, and that's part of why SD looks so much more appreciated than something that isn't on those players' radars. You mentioned ProfessorDM. His channel, is a DnD channel. Yeah he talks about other games here and there, but his game is a hombrew DnD and thats the focus of most of his content. Same with Bob the Worldbuilder, and a lot of other bigger channels that raved about it. SD was able to break into the DnD/OSR communities easier than unrelated games. But also, even if it isn't groundbreaking, it is quite good.

[@KrisSwettKP]

It feels like 5e...but so much simpler.

[@twistedturns65]

That's what grabbed me. Loved her minimalist adventure design, and her horror adventures came in clutch on more than a couple occasions. Shadowdark also helped me prep my one of my groups, who are largely new to RPG's in general, for more complicated games. We're running with Savage Worlds now, but they got their start running through one of her zine hex crawls. This also got me into running more OSR style games, especially since I like the style, but often despise the old mechanics. Race/Class level limits, the messy multi-classing/dual-classing rules, when D&D shifted away from that to 3rd edition (not that THAT system isn't an unbalanced mess in and of itself), I just didn't look back.

[@jbrianbaxter]

When giving awards, people should be blind to the ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation of the creators. It just doesn't matter if a bunch of white guys win awards or a bunch of gay ladies. It's the content of the game that matters and why they win the awards.

[@jacobbrown7367]

Shadowdark came out when I started feeling like 5e was getting stale and then the OGL scandal broke, cementing my need to find something different to play. Interestingly, though, SD was not the first RPG I tried. First was 5 torches deep, then black hack, Old School Essentials, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Mörk Borg, and others. When I found whadowdark, I knew what it was that I wanted. I wanted something that felt high stakes, I wanted exploration, comparative simplicity, and adaptability. Once I saw the free quickstart I knew this hit everything I wanted out of an RPG. Having almost no DMing experience, I was able to take this game and an adventure not even explicitly written for SD and have had an amazing time running for a table of once strangers twice a week and they are also excited to play and play with me running it specifically.

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

It's popularity is relatively easy to explain. Kelsey has been in the industry for a long while, it presents an OSR feel with modern rules, it's a complete book presented in handy A5 size without any need for extra sourcebooks, it launched right in the midst of the OGL issue when 5E players started looking for something else, and big named KZbin channels gave it a voice On its own terms, nothing about it is extraordinarily game-changing. Anything ShadowDark does, anyone could have done 10 years ago with a copy of Basic Fantasy, some house rules, and an egg timer - but each of these little things made it a perfect storm.

[@colinhiggins4779]

I had never heard of her before the launch of the book. It is a basic retro-clone that got hyped by youtubbers and corporate advertisers. Thirsty gamers liked the idea of a game designed by a girl.

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

@colinhiggins4779 Just because you haven't doesn't mean she wasn't around. The Arcane Library have published adventures and all sorts for years. Blaming this on simping is a bad take, especially when she's very plain Jane.

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

There is some of that, particularly in terms of awards and promotion. However, that doesn't mean it's not a game deserving of praise. Noone streamlined 5E without making it into something different before Shadowdark.

[@DeepSpaceSolo]

I dont think Shadowdark is a culture war phenomenon. Not withstanding the great production values, this kickstarter launched literally at the height of the OGL crisis and so cemented itself as the hip DnD alternative for both grognards and dissolusioned 5e players.

[@siahfishin5295]

People love it because it’s an amazing , easy, streamlined game that feels like you can go from dnd 5e to it and not skip a beat but find a much easier game to play and run without all the bogged down crap from 5e. It’s a love letter to classic DnD but streamlined for 5e players of today, and that is the majority of ttrpg players.

[@lomerran94]

Shadowdark became my solo game to play because it just fits. Like with the "easyphone" anology, I would be a guy who didnt own a phone. But then lucky me, this came out just as I wanted to start doing solo rpgs with these models I've been painting. I did look at a couple of other systems but they just didn't fit as well as Shadowdark, either too simple, or uninspiring artwork and layout, or too much lore so I'm making my imagination fit to what the creater has made. Like I really wanted to love Dragonsbane, but the whimsical setting is what it is and not for me. But take away the duck people and it just wouldn't be right. I like the lack of lore so I make my own. There's just enough, and is a dark setting which works for me. The solo tables are good, simple and I use them. I don't do the real time torch thing but plan to one day with other people. Next halloween going to plan a spooky one shot game where they have like 3 hours worth of toches or something.

[@MagnificentDevil]

The Solodark rules include a solo rule for light sources to last 10 turns instead of 1 hour.

[@lomerran94]

@@MagnificentDevil Yeah I do that most of the time

[@talon12020]

I'd say a lot of the acclaim was due to being in the right place at the right time. WOTC sparked a rebellion with their OGL nonsense and Shadowdark was there as a new, appealing alternative. The creator also seems to be well regarded in the industry as someone who grew up in the hobby which also fed into the "little guy who's one of us" vs the "evil corporation trying to kill our hobby with their insatiable desire for profit."

[@justinhaskell5502]

I notice that a bunch of the popular ttrpg channels are also working on a game or have released their own game. I also notice that several of them hype up each other's games. Honestly, I support it. Indie or small creators should band together and combine their efforts to stand out against the popular background. But they all hyped Shadowdark and Kelsey and I think it is well deserved hype. The game is good in my opinion. The art is really cool. But the layout and the solo rules are what drew me in. The whole thing is well designed and as a person who is kind of new to the hobby I feel like it's really accessible.

[@justinhaskell5502]

I guess I should mention something for more context... I am firmly embedded in the social category of old white neckbeard with my Linux and my modular synthesizer.

[@ross8093]

And the solo rules as I understande are still being developed the current iteration is just the first stage of it if plans haven't changed. I'm excited to see what'll be added. I'm imagining it'll just be more solo focused generation tables similar to the variety in Ironsworn but not actually adding complexity to the oracle and things

[@eatcomics]

Exactly. It's just overall solid. A great way to get into OSR in a single book. I don't own it, but I've watched enough of it that I respect it

[@knightcaelum968]

I don’t understand why people conflate good with unique. As if something is only good if it brings something never seen before to the table. For me, a lot of osr systems I bounced off for the simple fact that I don’t particularly find person with weapon and HP interesting to play. Ignoring characterization and backstory, things that ANY character can and should have, if I’m playing say OSE Advanced Fantasy and I have a party of a fighter, thief, bard, cleric, and magic user. They all feel like fighters gameplay wise at level 1. Thief skills suck, magic users get 1 spell default, cleric don’t get any. Everyone is a HP guy with weapon gameplay wise. Shadowdark goes a good job of distilling a fantasy d20 game with characters that are more in line with BX over 5e and classes that feel distinct to play. It’s solid, it’s good.

[@twistedturns65]

You know, I've heard everyone save for the people marketing Shadowdark try and say Shadowdark claims to be innovative, I've heard them claim it's good, but I don't remember anyone tied to the project trying to say it's amazingly innovative. Like torch mechanic and no dark vision is neat, nothing super new, but damn it plays well. So yeah, it's good, not unique, and I love it for that.

[@SerifSansSerif]

But it's not BX, it's 5e.

[@merethif]

Cleric gets Turn Undead - it is game changer! I agree with Thief though :-D

[@adub_from_253]

Another reason why you should always watch Man Alone videos, you receive gems like this, “…a slap in the face, bok choy and a Dixie cup of toilet water”. 🤣🤣 did anyone else have a Dixie cup dispenser next to their sink growing up? We were pretty poor, and now I’m convinced it’s because we spent our fortune on those disposable cups.

[@twistedturns65]

Definitely, in our 'manufactured home' Dad built on to look like a proper house.

[@AceneDean]

Congratulations on getting a sponsor, Malone! Also, Noble Knight Games is a unionized shop. 🎉

[@amanisalone]

It's so hard to convince people that you actually like your sponsor but I just need everyone to understand that if Noble Knight Games asked me to move into their showroom, I would do it. I would do it tomorrow.

[@vintoks]

You could just do an hour of ads and promos and I'd dig it. Your rabbit hole stories are the best.

[@Akeche]

Kelsey actually understands the concept of marketing, rather than relying on "vibes" and "word of mouth". Beyond that? I'd say it's because she hasn't chosen to make one half of her targeted customer base an enemy. And I'm being deliberately non-specific there, because we all know it gets done both ways. Simply having a creator want you to play their game, and they don't evangelize to you in the text. They don't make you feel like an "other" with their choice of words. And most importantly, they don't hate you for things not under your control. These are big reasons why the game spread so far and wide.

[@jonchappellnow]

For me, what Shadowdark does better than any system is that it re-creates the actual feeling that many of us had back in the 1980s when we first discovered playing Dungeons and Dragons. It is nostalgia stripped down to its core essence. In actual play at the table, with the limited action economy and with "always-on initiative," the play moves fast and furious around the table. This has the effect of increasing the player engagement and dramatic tension. Most 5E games that I play in, people are on their phones waiting for their turn to come back around. Lastly, and you mentioned this, the rules are a joy to read because it takes much more work to strip something down into a state of accessible brevity than to blather on in bloated paragraph after paragraph. Kelsey did the work so that we don't have to as readers. And the stuff that isn't explicitly spelled out? She gives the reader enough trust and credit that they can figure something out for themself. In other words, she doesn't patronize the reader by having a rule for every possible scenario or situation.

[@MagnificentDevil]

Shadowdark keeps the pressure on and the tensions high while in the dungeon, players can't waste time arguing about what to do, everyone is on alert and players remain engaged. And when back in town, carousing gives the release valve for all that tension, and creates a need for more adventuring. I think a lot of Shadowdark critics haven't actually played it.

[@shirleynace1314]

This is exactly why I love Shadowdark too - old school excitement with the best of modern rules.

[@reelneim]

When I watch your videos, I often feel as if you have stood by the water cooler while I'm doing one of my TED talks to someone else. Thanks!

[@amanisalone]

TED Talks, but Man Alone LISTENS

[@jakecrowe3797]

Been wanting to get to Noble Knight games so bad. It’s only like two hours away!

[@Deshitana]

Sir your timing with the video was scary. It was literally there a few hrs after speaking about it 2 days ago. Though than for this. Now i understand what the fuss is about a bit better.

[@CScott-wh5yk]

It’s the same reason people love Dyson vacuum cleaners. It perfected something that already existed forever, and added a dash of style.

[@darkienescariot9361]

I was agonizing between Basic Fantasy/White Box for my crawling needs when i learned about Shadowdark and never looked back. The torch mechanic alone was just brilliant for time management.

[@beardyben7848]

Point of order, Mr. Man Alone. You said Kelsey Dionne comes up every time the game is mentioned, but I heard about EZD6 by DM Scotty, as EZD6 by DM Scotty, and every time I hear anyone mention EZD6, they say DM Scotty. :P

[@amanisalone]

@@beardyben7848 true but COUNTERPOINT:

[@amanisalone]

Hang on let me come up with a counterpoint

[@myeartrumpet]

5:12 Shipping costs to Australia are also horrific usually too.

[@amanisalone]

We have to figure out like a shipping chain among the channel members to figure out how we can do this for cheaper it's getting absurd

[@captainnolan5062]

I enjoyed you spending time doing an "in-depth ponder" of this question. Regarding your conclusion at the end: I am not sure that a creator can control the circumstances that made Shadowdark such a phenomenon (Kelsey herself says below that she doesn't know why it worked to the extent that it did). Why did the 'pet rock' or 'beanie babies' take off in the 60's and 70's? Theory 5 - This game was in the right place at the right time. This situation (the amazing success of one product over another for no apparent reason) reminds me of the book trade. There are millions of books published every year. Only a very few make the mega-bestseller list, and sometimes the ones that make it are not the best written books, they are books that strike a some kind of nerve with the reading public for some reason that is hard to put into words (Fifty Shades of Gray is universally panned in terms of the authors inability to write well, but it sold a ton of copies). Being "in the right place at the right time" is a key to success that is hard to duplicate.

[@joshs_boxes]

I think one point that Shadowdark has in its favor is accessibility. I got into D&D because of 5e so I don’t have any nostalgia for the old school game style, but the old style does intrigue me because of channels like DungeonCraft and I think Shadowdark is the easiest way to give that OSR style a try. It comes in one convenient book and only one book, unlike OSE which has like 5 different ways you can buy the same book. It doesn’t use weird dice like DCC. It has tons of monsters and magic items that are premade, unlike Knave or Cairn which have a few but you mostly have to make your own. The QuickStart is free but comprehensive, including an entire adventure. The game system is mechanically solid and the book layout makes it easy to digest. Arcane Library also seeks premade adventures and campaign settings if I don’t want to make them myself. I own those other games like DCC and Knave, I like them and want to try them. I recognize that they also do the things that shadowdark does well, but Shadowdark is the path of least resistance when it comes to dipping my toes into the OSR. It includes all the stuff I want out of an OSR game and nothing that could potentially turn me off of it. Is that the reason it got so huge? Probably not, but it’s what appeals to me the most.

[@yagsipcc287]

Shadowdark is simple enough and complex enough to grab everyone, its fun, its easy takes inspiration from different places. Also if you have lots of OSR, B/X or AD&D modules you can very easily use them with little to no effort at all so if you have a big collection you wont feel like you have to start from the group up if thsts the type of thing you like. I have many different books for shadowdark now its my favourite system atm.

[@captainnolan5062]

I think the timing of the game's release amid all of the D & D controversies was very important to this game's success, along with the fact that it is easy for 5e players to switch to it, along with the marketing hype, along with a number of other unique factors like who the creator is, a number of other KZbinrs helping promote the game, a well laid out and clean design, fantastic cover art, ease of play, not to mention the fact that Kelsey already had a following of fans (from her KZbin channel and users of the other content she had already created). It was kind of the perfect storm for the game. The torch mechanic in 0e D & D was built in to the game (this is not a new invention). The carousing mechanic is nothing new either, spending your gold (wasting it) to get XP is an old mechanic. The funnel mechanic was also a feature of 0e D & D. Characters died like flies in the old days (I was there, I know). Like Man Alone (and apparently Kelsey herself) figuring out why this game has taken off to this extent (even given my list of factors) is still a bit of a mystery.

[@jonathana6298]

I confess… the only thing I knew about Shadowdark was that it had overwhelmingly positive reviews, made a lot of money, had a real-time torch mechanic, and the presentation was nice.

[@DJLMOON]

I'd been looking for "DND but simple and straightforward" for a while before I tried Shadowdark. I've tried EZD6, ICRPG, Mork Borg, and they are all great games but there really is something special about Shadowdark. From it's game play to it's layout, it's everything you need while still giving you plenty of room for your own creativity. The other very important thing it has going for it is that it's the easiest for 5e players to switch over to. (they have a big sunk cost of mental energy into that system) It's not hugely ground breaking in it's mechanics, but it's a fantastic the distillation of everything I'd been on the hunt for for literal years.

[@EnrahimRPG]

Taking the phone analogy: It is the change from dial up to broadband. A web page loading in 1 second rather than 2 minutes. Shadowdark is solving the slownes problem of 5ed alongside the antics of OSE while keeping unparalelled level of compatibility with *D&D family* adventures. Before shadowdark I checked out dozens of D&D "family" games. This is the only one I have found to be significantly better than OSE and 5ed. That is why D&D is always mentioned in reviews. Without D&D compatability it is as you say just another good game in the crowd. So if you do not come from a D&D vackground like you, it is indeed no major selling point, just as for a phone, full compatibility with the apple ecosystem likely wouldnt be a big selling point if you have managed to avoid being sucked into it. While for someone invested in the ecosystem, this would be *the* selling point. After all, you pointed out black void having 200 pages of great lore. How many thousands of pages of great lore do shadowdark have when you realize almost all lore made for the D&D ecosystem is effectively up for grabs?

[@Wugglesworth]

I am in the same camp in the sense that I don’t have any overtly negative things to say about Shadowdark but for the life of me I do not understand the abundant praise that gets lavished on this game. I played around with the quickstart materials + the solo supplement and came away with the conclusion “that was fine and I would be happy to play it again sometime” but I was not blown away by the mechanics or the overall feel. The problem for those of us in that camp is that it can lead to a feeling of cognitive dissonance when we see everyone else gushing over an experience that we ourselves did not have. This is possibly what contributes to the “this game sucks” reaction from some as that dissonance morphs into defensiveness. There is an implication that *you* as the naysayer are at fault for not seeing what is clearly obvious to everyone else and to protect the ego some overcompensate and go on the offensive. I think a lot of needless vitriol and misunderstanding could be avoided if, instead of dogmatically categorizing entertainment as objectively “good” or “bad”, we could just say “it’s not to my taste” and then choose not die on these hills trying to invalidate other people’s experiences. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@crimsonhead100]

Shadow Dark feels like im playing a survival horror rpg. Unlike 5e, every spell, weapon and item are important.

[@MambaJamba]

steadily growing my guy keep succeeding

[@BillWiltfong]

Now that you mention it, a dot matrix printout of rules on continual green bar paper would hit a real nostalgic sweet spot for me. Tables, ASCII art, stapled together... delicious.

[@CarrollLiddell]

I'm so glad it's not just me who doesn't understand the fanfare over Shadowdark.... Its a perfectly fine game but, i think what it did really well was timing, it came out right during rhr open license scandal. Also speaking of Runehammer games, Crown and Skull, feels criminally undermentioned in the TTRPG world.

[@jcraigwilliams70]

I liked Crown and Skull well enough, but in some ways (particularly magic) it felt like a step backwards from ICRPG.

[@keithmathews4605]

@@jcraigwilliams70 ICRPG's magic system is... odd. I can't quite put my finger on it as to why or how it is odd, not a bad kinda odd, just... odd. Regardless, I have not looked into Crown and Skull, so can you shed some light on the magic system that it has and how you feel it takes a step backwards?

[@jcraigwilliams70]

@@keithmathews4605 I don't *love* ICRPG's magic system. For example, I don't really get how spells are stored in inventory. That makes no sense to me. I can rationalize it away as the inventory slot being used for spell components, but it's still weird. Despite that, I prefer it to C&S. In C&C, you don't just play "a magic user." There are different types. You can be a Sorceror (using magic intuitively but with the most limitations), a Mage (the more traditional magic user who pores over magical tomes to increase their knowledge), and Wizards (Gandalf-life beings who are universally Ancient, appearing old and wizened). Wizards are further divided into 3 types: Starfallen (as the name implies, they fall from the stars), Ancient Ones (who have studied magic for centuries), and Demonologists (who draw power from the infernal). Wizards get the most extensive write-up, probably because they have the 3 types. As with ICRPG, spells may be part of your inventory, though not necessarily. It depends on your character. Spells can be any of the existing spells included in the book, or you can create your own custom spells using the guidelines provided. That's one of the key elements of C&S-- you can build whatever you want, whether it be spells, equipment, even allies-- by spending points to do so. overall, that's great. I like that level of flexibility. But the thing that turned me off is that spells have one "cast" by default. This makes it similar to D&D's Vancian magic, where you study a spell to learn it, then forget it upon casting and have to study it again to relearn it. That is probably not a major thing for most people, but I always hated it. That was one of the things that I disliked most in D&D, so seeing here was really disappointing. It would be like telling your archer character that once they shoot one arrow, they forget how to use their bow and have to wait until the next day to learn how to use it again. I would have to re-read the magic section to refresh my memory, because it's been several months since I looked at it, but that is what stands out. I don't hate C&S magic by any means. I appreciate the ability to create your own spells. But I remember reading it and thinking that going from using spell points (or roll-to-cast in some games) to forgetting spells if we cast them seemed like a step backwards.

[@keithmathews4605]

@@jcraigwilliams70 Thank you for the info. Like you, the spells taking up "inventory" slots in ICRPG got under my skin. Some other games (Knave immediately comes to mind) made each spell into a single book. No thanks. I mean, I get where the creators of the games were going with the inventory slot systems. But for casters? Nope... it felt weird.

[@jcraigwilliams70]

@@keithmathews4605 well, at least in ICRPG, there are many different types of "containers" that you can use to carry your spells. But yeah, it's a bit odd. But I would (and do) just ignore them being part of inventory.

[@TroyBanks]

Sometimes, a game hits at the right time. Are there games that are great but don't get the love? Of course. We put way too much energy into the why and not the just because.

[@twistedturns65]

Heh, so, back when I was a wee gamer, I went all in on Forgotten Realms. Fell in love with the setting, collected the books (thanks to my sixth grade reading teacher who would give me her books when she was done with them), and of course I wanted more. Unfortunately a friend of mine stuck up their nose and said "Forgotten Realms sucks, Dragonlance is soooo much better." Guess what D&D setting I hated for ages without ever really giving it a shot? Thing is, I probably would have liked it fine had he said "If you like Forgotten Realms, you should check out Dragon Lance." My long winded way of saying that if someone loves a system that doesn't get as much attention, they might do better focusing their energies on uplifting that system, rather than being one of those people who bash the games that get that attention thanks to fickle forces few can control.

[@AceneDean]

I initially took an embarrassingly negative stance towards Shadowdark. I was entirely put off by the real-time torch mechanic. To me, it felt like a slap in the face to solo players, since 1 hour is longer than a lot of my solo sessions. It made the game waaaaaaaay to easy. But eventually I realized I was being a butthurt simpleton and decided to give it a real shot. Also, Kelce released a solo module that was pretty dang good. And i landed about where you seem to have: it is a pretty good game. I enjoy it from time to time if im looking for that specific feel. I think the massive popularity of it comes from 5e players finally discovering there are other games. 🤣

[@TheLahama]

Yeah - SoloDark uses a few modified rules, such as light sources only lasting 10 rounds each instead of 1 hour of real time 😉 love this game

[@PatriceBoivin]

They could try real Dungeons & Dragons... but they rarely do.

[@AceneDean]

@@PatriceBoivin what do you mean by your gatekeeping phrase? What is "real D&D" to you?

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

​@@AceneDean He's talking about the theatre kiddies who have sought to ruin the hobby these past 10 years

[@AceneDean]

@@InhabitantOfOddworld That is not a thing that has happened. There are old grognards who are upset at the social changes in society and think that they are victims of it. But they are not. They are just failing to adapt and perceiving victimization where there is none.

[@BillyTrengove]

Personally shadowdark was like a springboard, I saw it as something new and unique so I backed it. I later realized it’s not unique at all but it opened the way for me to try all these other games I had no idea existed. Also as a beginner solo player, the tables are top tier.

[@CScott-wh5yk]

Plain and simple: it’s my favorite ruleset

[@jcraigwilliams70]

I have both Shadowdark and EZD6. I enjoy both, but I lean toward Shadowdark. Both have a lot to recommend them but I do have some minor issues with EZD6. For one thing, I like to differentiate characters more. In Shadowdark, both Fighters and Clerics are melee combatants, but the Fighter will be better, and among Fighters, one might have a higher Strength, making him more effective. In EZD6, everyone who is trained to fight rolls 2 dice, whether they are a Warrior, or a Conjurer with the Fighter inclination. The description for Wardens reads "Few can escape your... deadeye shots," implying that they are excellent archers, but literally anyone who knows how to use a bow is just as good. I like characters to have variable levels of skill, rather than just Poor/ Unskilled/ Master. I also find EZD6 a bit too easy. With a standard difficulty of 3, a character taking an action has a 66% chance of success, even if they are untrained. If they do have training, their chance of success is 89%. Add in Karma, and failure is practically impossible. I think at the very least, I would raise the standard difficulty to 4. But I do still like EZD6. I just think it needs a bit of tweaking to match my preferences.

[@OrkKnuckles]

DM Scotty is one of those guys that reminds me that this hobby is fun. Fun. Just a genuinely fun channel that gets it done. Fun being the “it” being done.

[@amanisalone]

I agree, it's hard to think of a more likable person.

[@OldDesertGal]

I am not a founding member, but I predicted your sky-rocket ride to infamy. I want my waffle mug.

[@amanisalone]

Sorry we don't have any waffle mugs left, can I interest you in an umbrella or -since you are a founding member -would you like to try our brand new waffle insurance plan?

[@OldDesertGal]

@amanisalone get thee some merch, my friend.

[@Jeromy1986]

Noble Knight is totally just gonna tell you that you are honorarily one of them.

[@brady9592]

So this is the channel all the seals have been talking about.

[@lukeenyart1073]

It’s ok to say you don’t like that ShadowDark is so popular. At least I feel like you feel that way,

[@amanisalone]

No I don't feel that way. I am ambivalent about its popularity, I just think it's worth considering why it got so popular so fast. Lots of great discussion, glad that I posted the video

[@Avenger222]

I love shadowdark. It's just so simple and easy to get into. I don't even like the live timer thingy. The layout and aesthetic makes it really easy to get into. It's one of my go-tos.

[@rentsy3444]

You didn't mention the OGL crisis. Plus one other factor - Shadowdark is actually a working game system. VERY FEW GAMES are working game systems. This one actually works within the levels it supports.

[@ScottBaker_]

The one thing I didnt hear is that all of your discussion applies to every game that anyone feels is "good." (Full disclosure: I do like SD. And there are lots of games I have no interest in, but I don't feel that makes them bad or detracts from any other game.)

[@Ze0nite]

I guess in the end it comes down to what we’re looking in these games. You’re right in that as a solo player we’re scanning the game for the experiences it will provide us with. Sure Shadowdark provides a streamlined experience, and for players that are looking to streamline that “Old-School Experience” they’re going to have a blast with it. Dolmenwood is one game I’d recommend to anyone who’s looking for elegant, cohesive and well-edited Old-School content which is also unbelievably easy to solo in.

[@Jeromy1986]

I'm so dumb 😂 I didn't realize I also got a PDF of Black Void. I'll need to take a look at it. It looks very aesthetic.

[@Whichendup]

t=10:20 or so to get past the plugs and sponsorships.

[@mick19]

🙄

[@swordsnstones]

games such as shadwodark, knave, ICRPG, etc. are the inspirations for me to create my own version of the OG, for myself. Simple, fast, deadly, and for us, fun :) cool vid. ty Keep 'em Rollin'

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

If you are familiar with video games, Shadowdark is like the Outer Worlds by Obsidian. It was developed by the studio that made the fan-favorite Fallout New Vegas and it came out at the same time as the much derided Fallout 76 made by Bethesda. People hated the corporate junk that was Fallout 76, and praised The Outer Worlds as being a game in the same mold done right. The Outer Worlds was promoted to high heaven and got gushing reviews as the Fallout 76-killer. Less than a year later, The Outer Worlds was barely mentioned. In fact, there were new reviews pointing out flaws and concluding that it's okay but nothing special. Meanwhile, people kept playing Fallout 76. The Outer Worlds is good game, but it's not a standout game in any way. However, it launched into a perfect storm of dissatisfaction with a similar product. It claimed (or people blindly assumed) that it was a better version of the thing people were displeased with. The reaction of the rpg-video game market was akin to mass hysteria. I feel Shadowdark was so successful for similar reasons.

[@captainnolan5062]

The last Top Gun movie was Star Wars (A New Hope) remade (i.e. evading the laser cannons and dropping the bomb into the tunnel to blow up the death star). Watch the two briefing scenes describing how they (the pilots) have to destroy the enemy instillation in both movies).

[@rentsy3444]

50 minutes in you BURIED THE LEDE but I WENT ALL THE WAY like a GOLD MINER DIGGING FOR GOLD Girard Mimetic desire 49:00

[@RafaelLVx]

I remember the day I wondered about the same thing you wondered that sparked this video. Back when Shadowdark was not yet released (I think it was crowd funding), all of a sudden three of my favorite D&D tubers posted videos at the same time saying this game I never heard of was the game that kinda fixed D&D and singlehandedly replaced all existing OSR. At first I honestly thought it was all sponsored, and then all claimed no money was paid, which to me made it all even weirder. That said, I do like Shadowdark objectively for what is. I don't think it's perfect, but there is talent in its design, there's definitely skill in its layout, and a lot of passion from Kelsey, who I think claims she spent years honing the final version. Does it deserve to be crowned best of 24? I mean, it's a subjective crown, so why not? It was definitely a highlight of the year.

[@drewenders150]

Props for the explanation of Girardian Mimesis lol. Keep up the good work!

[@Jerthanis]

The thing I didn't get is that all the unique selling point ideas that it has are really, really exportable to any other game you're playing. Dropping darkvision from PCs and requiring torches? That can be in your 5e game next week with zero extra work involved. Real time is in-game time? You can start that this second for your 20 year ongoing 3.5 campaign, if you want to. I haven't had a chance to read it yet myself, and I'm not trying to denegrate it at all, but just from the many review videos I've seen, I just wonder why everyone who likes it isn't just like, "Steal these 4 ideas I like that are very stealable, even if you don't buy the game." I think my theory #5? that I would append to the end of your theories is that D&D 5e was a big and dominant system because it had pretty universal buy-in, it has elements meant to attract OSR crowds (remember, OSR started under 4e, and 5e slowed the bleeding) and modern dramatic play and casual beer and pretzel gamers, and tactical wargamey types. It grew the hobby by about 5-10x what it was previously by being a safe and agreeable system. It became obvious that having ONE system we can all agree on is just plain good for the hobby. Then it became clear WotC and Hasbro are evil megacorporations who want to harvest our bodies for parts, and as a community we knew we needed to move on. PF2e, the largest rival, could not be that safe port of call though, because it has nothing whatsoever for the OSR, even less somehow for the casual, and a little for the dramatic play in order to put all its platters of feasting before the tactical wargamer. So a replacement had to be chosen. Something we can all agree on to be what 5e was, and also still have us all keep both our kidneys. I think Shadowdark was arrived at as the only product that could be that thing. The fact that it has nothing that cannot easily be stolen becomes a boon then. It's just a 5e, but not owned by the corporation that is currently issuing bonds speculating over the value of your gold crowns, once they get legal access to them.

[@merethif]

I think all of your hypothesis have some truth in them - some more, some less. In my case, there's zero nostalgia factor involved. In the early nineties, when I have started to play RPG I've started with Warhammer Fantasy 1e. D&D was non-existent in my country, none of my friends played, or even knew, D&D 1e, 2e, B/X or BECMI. I have played D&D a bit during 3e era, but first edition I've really got into was 5e (I've run, and played in, two 2+ years campaigns, plus a few shorter ones). Yet now I'm playing OSE (+Dolmenwood) and Shadowdark. I just find them genuinely better. I like and play various games: from Pirate Borg to Tales from the Loop and Brindlewood Bay. But when I'm looking for D&D experience I'm choosing ether Shadowadrk or OSE (and usually end up running some sort of hybrid of the two). I don't think SD is like the best thing ever and it's the end of RPG history. I still run OSE (especially with all the improvements Gavin introduced in Dolmenwood). But SD is great nonetheless and I will be enjoying it in 2025, like in did in '24 and '23. In my case, there was also no mimetic desire factor. I had backed it very early on during KS, before all youtubers have posted their videos. And I haven't know Arcane Library stuff prior to that. It just looked like something up my alley. I've run my first SD campaign almost immediately after I've received my pdf, so before all youtube reviews, and long before ENNIES awards. And we were having a blast. There's one factor you didn't mention, that may had some influence in my opinion. Kelsey don't hate her customers. It might sound like a weird take, but nowadays I see lots of companies and authors actively despise their audience (I don't get it but that's my observation). Like that WotC guy who said that old white guys couldn't leave RPG hobby soon enough. I mean seriously? It's a horrible PR move in case of a hobby dominated by white guys (actually it horrible PR move even if white guys were minority in a given hobby). And SD is absolutely welcoming game, and Arcane library managed to maintain relatively welcoming community (which is very difficult nowadays). It's like not taking part in cultural war and other similar bull...t turned out to be good for business and the product? Wow, who would have though ;-D

[@graynanuuq]

Don't forget a "hidden" element that the various algorithms which decide what to present to people -- YT of course being the prime, but not only, example -- promote hyperbole. SD has become my system of choice for fantasy gaming and I think Kelsey deserves all the praise she's gotten, but if there is a sense of a "church of Shadowdark", I think I big part of that is the requirement for reviewers on any platform to phrase to the extreme.

[@srpyle]

This month I will be finishing up my monthly, two year Shadowdark campaign. It's been great, and so I would say the reason SD has had its success is reason 1 among the ones you listed. SD is just a good game. That's Occam's Razor working in my mind. It's good at what it does and people talk about that, and others want to try and experience that as well. I suppose only the years will tell if it enjoys sustained success.

[@brandoncox7672]

Great timing in the video, I just started my first solo campaign with Shadowdark using Cursed Scroll 1. I’m still learning and some things are rough around the edges but it’s been really fun. You should look into Index Card RPG. I’d be curious to see if you think it’d be a good solo system. Thanks for another awesome video!

[@TortugaDMStudios]

You like it because other people like it... AKA the Cyber Truck.

[@Jeromy1986]

57:12 So.... it's like the old Apple Jacks commercials 🍎

[@jeremytitus9519]

I don’t love Shadowdark, I love my mum.

[@FixDnD]

Good take! Thanks for summarising

[@FixDnD]

I started playing DnD 5e three years ago and got hooked by the ability to dive into fantasy stories through roleplaying. So I also discovered roleplaying for me. And I like to understand games to use the full potential of choices. DnD made me a nerd and I ate every DnD rulebook I could get my hands on and listened to as many podcasts discussing DMing and playing DnD “right”. Last year I discovered, that there are more games besides DnD with which one can roleplay… so I dived into Dieseldrachen, Tiny Dungeon, DC20, Cairn, Vagabond and suddenly many KZbinrs started to talk about Shadowdark. In the last years I started DMing 4 campaigns and only one campaign is still running. Why? Firstly it’s scheduling but secondly many of my friends said to me: “Yes I’d like to play DnD, but I don’t want to spend as much time, getting the rules right as you as a DM have to. It’s to much time I have to spend in advance to have fun for some hours.” And the campaign ebbed out. To find someone to play DC20 (still in beta) is even harder and I love the game but in my opinion it’s even harder getting the rules in my head than DnD 2024. So yesterday my copy of Shadowdark arrived and I was blower away by one fact: character pre-stories and the survival of a PC doesn’t matter as much as in DnD - it’s the game, that matters. I still use DnD5e to tell epic stories for years with my friends and family, but just for play without having to prep for the next session as a player I’m going to GM Shadowdark in the future! Because the players will engage with the story and their characters naturally and I as a DM do not have to force them “do your remember this NPC from your backstory that was mentioned last month in our game? Yeah, that’s your former mentor…” or anything like that. Shadowdark does one thing and that thing it does really good: dungeon crawling. Of course it is able to use it for fantastic hero-arcs, but not as well as DnD, DC20, PF2 or similar TTRPGs In June I even started on writing my own version of DnD that uses a success-table and a D12-system that fits on 2 pages to get some of my friends playing DnD without having to STUDY that much rules… Shadowdark makes DMing easier and also playing easier so it is more likely that game nights will actually take place - because it takes less afford from the players side. At least that is my theory on this topic and I still prefer DnD24 😅 because it’s THE TTRPG like English is THE language to write lyrics so most people will understand the message of a song

[@FixDnD]

And I like the smaller format of the book 😂

[@FixDnD]

For me DnD5e is 3D movies and Shadowdark like Charlie Chaplin

[@twutter4565]

while you hit many good points, I think you missed, as the real estate agents say, three core reasons of the "why shadowdark?" : timing timing timing. The game came out at the right time of the post-covid "lets back to a joint normality"; it came out in the "hype train" of TTRPG kickstarters becoming "actual players" in the game space with big kickstarter after big kickstarter; and mostly it came in the right timing of the wake of the OGL debacle when everyone wanted to kick WOTC in the balls and Shadowdark is/was a great way to do that.

[@MeekMithril]

Fast forward to 42 minutes in to get to him getting to answering his own question

[@DeirdreCeridwen]

(in re to "heartbreak" game) "ok, so, now I'll just buy it and cry" LOL yep!

[@captainnolan5062]

Regarding your theories: Theory 1) The game is good - Response: But there are a lot of good games out there (and some better games) that did not take off like Shadowdark. This theory falls short in explaining the phenomenal success of Shadowdark. Theory 2) The game is astroturfed - Response: This theory does not explain why it would (or how it did) get so much more attention almost any other indie RPG released recently; most indie RPG's, when released, get almost no attention. Theory 3) Memetic Desire - Response - This could have some effect on the game's success (perhaps Shadowdark is the current version of 'bell bottoms'). At the time the game was released, a lot of D & D players were looking for a game to play instead of 5e (due to the OGL controversy and then the other ways Hasbro was dissing their customers). That is, there was a vast consumer base looking for the "next Thing" and for some reason (see my other comment with a list of possibilities) settled on Shadowdark, which was talked about being an easier version of 5e. Theory 4) Shadowdark Shot the Moon - This theory has some good points, however, many other games are already available for Grognards to play (including 0e D & D and other retro clones). I am not sure how much you know about the OSR (old school renaissance), but they are likely still playing games they already own, or some of the more recently released games like Old School Essential, which is another cleanly designed game with good a good layout design, and good art. See my other comment below regarding factors that may have contributed to the game's success. As you point out, GM Scotty is also nice, but his game did not take off like Shadowdark.

[@SAMathlete]

I'm a huge fan of shadowdark and I am happy for its success. There are "outside" explanations for its success that you didn't emphasize: 1) It came at the right time. It kickstarted during the OGL crisis and Kelsey could become the David to WOTC's Goliath in people's imaginations. Kelsey added a very generous license to her game that could never be revoked. Power to the people. 2) The popular Dungeontube creators tend to be friends with each other and with Kelsey. They go to the same conventions, talk to each other, game with each other, and tend to align on many ideas around what makes good game design. I'm not saying that they are reviewing it well as a favor for Kelsey, but rather that they have already talked a lot about what they like and what they don't like in their games. Kelsey has had a chance to explain her values about game design, convince her community on some points, get constructive feedback on other points, and find the sweet spot in a lot of design decisions from lengthy playtesting and revisions. Being in an extended dialogue with your critics and your community is a huge benefit--but it's not some shadowy conspiracy. 3) Similar to the second point, she has already built up a community of like-minded people before the release of shadowdark. The Arcane Library wrote some very well-received D&D modules. She proved herself as a creator and built a community of GMs who valued elegance, simplicity, good pacing, and creativity in these products. Shadowdark's success is mostly due to its own merits. It's a compelling product on its own. But its runaway success is also a product of these last three points.

[@StanNotSoSaint]

It's readable.

[@PrehistoricVendingMachine]

I think the primary reason is that shadow dark is a good game. Secondary reason, is the WOTC OGL fiasco, Kelsey released shadow dark at almost the perfect time, & road the wave. I suspect if we could see the numbers of TTRPG kickstarters we would see a bump in sales each time WOTC fumbled that year. Also remember, a lot of people said they were switched to POE2. I personally believe a lot of people that play DND 5E want a ‘light’ version of the game, which shadowdark looked like; However, shadowdark is a blend of OSR, which isn’t the same style of play as DND 5E thus is probably why you don’t see a lot of shadowdark sessions today.

[@amanisalone]

Yeah, it's pretty undeniable that that played a part in it as well as a part in a lot of broad changes in the hobby. I think a problem met a lot of people who are fans of DND struggle with is that they desperately want to not play it but they can't find a game that they like that is better than it or that they are able to enjoy as much, and so because shadow dark was so good, I think that people were very happy to have found a new Game that was not DND and was also when they wanted to play and enjoyed playing

[@RPGDAD1980]

Not hating on shadowdark. I think it’s a great addition to the hobby. It’s hard for me to invest into another game based in the realm of D&D. I have ones like Basic Fantasy, White Box, Olde Swords Reign, Castles and Crusades and yes 5e. I would buy Shadowdark just for the all the extra stuff in the book.

[@amanisalone]

I agree!

[@alejotm000]

I personally think it brings nothing new to the table, so I'm really surprised at veteran players talking about it as the second coming of Gygax. It's a stripped down DCC with added 5e elements... I think the author is an absolute master at marketing, though, more than game design, as she really managed to capture lighting in a bottle there. It's incredible the support this game has, kudos to her for playing her cards so well.

[@jcraigwilliams70]

@@alejotm000 I see a lot of people complain about Shadowdark, saying "there's nothing new." I can understand that. But I look at it this way: sometimes you might eat a cookie and think "This is really good!" It's made of flour, sugar, eggs, etc, just like every other cookie, but the mix of ingredients just clicks to make it better than others you have eaten.

[@alejotm000]

@@jcraigwilliams70 definitely, I'm glad people are enjoying the game, I was just personally surprised because I really thought it wasn't worth my time when I read it, and thought it would only be interesting to new folks, not people who have been playing D&D for decades.

[@mrguy3678]

Also, contrary to what every OSR content creator wants you to believe, the TTRPG market IS a zero-sum game. TTRPGs aren't Ice-cream flavors or music records where "variety is the spice of life". Most people barely have the time to play ONE game and we have to find enough OTHER players interested in playing the SAME game as us. For most people that's Dnd 5th edition, but there is just enough interest in OSR style gaming to support ONE more game on a broad commercial level. For whatever reason that game happens to be Shadowdark. It doesn't matter how beutifull your new RPG is, or how innovative its mechanics are, if the basic fact is its one in a million games like it and I cant find anyone to play it with me. Frankly, the OSR scene is WAY OVERSATURATED and I'm saying this just based on the fact I see new RPG reviews in my KZbin feed everyday but is anyone actually PLAYING these games? Most of these OSR channels just flip through games they haven't even played! And you want me to pay MONEY in the HOPE that I can find people to play the game with? Shadowdark is free. Yes you can buy the rulebook but that's just decoration for your shelf or coffee table. The core rules you need to play are online for FREE and Shadowdarklings lets you generate characters instantly. Also free adventures abound online as well as custom classes as the core engine makes homebrew really easy. Most importantly, there is an active COMMUNITY that means you actually get to PLAY THE GAME.

[@Deztical]

Everything you said and also a real business plan and marketing budget.

[@hotemet]

Come for the gaming content and stay for the social commentary! 🙂 Well done!

[@nickc2837]

It's the "Kewl OSR" game that seems familiar enough to 5e fans. Great looking product, not not for me. I think we have eough fantasy dungeon crawlers.

[@beyondfaking]

In terms of the 'mimetic theory,' wouldn't that mean everything we have ever wanted fits that theory? So, nothing has intrinsic value; we want it because other people want it, and the more popular and praised something is, the more people have bought into that perception. This, then, would apply to every product ever and should just be interpreted as a 'given' state of the world and, consequently, not something particular to Shadowdark or any other TTRPG and providing no valuable distinction.

[@keithmathews4605]

I backed the game. After reading through the material, honestly, I just can not figure out why people are so "in love" with it. There is nothing in it that has not been done with other systems in some way that is either very similar, or actually done much better. Personally, if someone likes a product that is just not my jam, I am happy they enjoy it... because at the end of the day... their table, their game, their experience. But, for me, Shadowdark is just not as "unique" as so many people seem to think.

[@Sanguivore]

What also has stood out to me as quite odd from fairly early on, is that much of the "defense" of the game is the *exact* same points-often word-for-word-just slightly rearranged in their order, like bots or some sort of pre-written marketing spiel. (I say "defense" in quotation marks, because much of the online discourse I've seen surrounding the game involves any questions being asked about what makes the game so special or successful often being perceived as an attack on the game, its enjoyers, and its creator, which to me is perceiving those questions in bad faith.) I've been in the OSR space (and RPG design circles) for over a decade, and I've never seen the response this game has nor the rabid fanbase, despite the fact that, like you and many others have pointed out, it doesn't really bring anything new to the table. I'm not accusing the game or its creator of anything, but it certainly is odd and stands out to me for that alone.

[@merethif]

@@Sanguivore What has stood out to me as quite odd, is that many people, when describing water, uses the exact same words, like wet or fluid, or transparent - just slightly rearranged in their order, like bots or some sort of pre-written marketing spiel. When many people use the same points to describe a thing, very often it's because those points actually apply to the thing. But of course conspiracy is equally possible [sarcasm].

[@Sanguivore]

@@merethif What a thoughtful and insightful reply. [sarcasm] You either deliberately misinterpreted my comment, or you can't read. I'm not saying they're just using a few of the same descriptive words, I'm saying they're using the *exact* same talking points, often in the *exact* same order, often using the *exact* same series of words. If you think that's equivalent to using one or two of the same adjectives to describe something objective like the liquidity of water, God help you. (And to add, you just proved my point. You got defensive and perceived my words as an attack and had to result to a bad faith reply instead of actual engagement.)

[@merethif]

@@Sanguivore water was a hyperbole. But you can say the same exact thing about any other game, or hobby, or music genre, or music band, or other activities, brands or products. If you ask several Alien RPG enthusiasts what's so fun about this game, from each of them you will hear about its interesting stress mechanic, while not a single one will mention its magic system. Weird. When asking about SD you will not hear about its streamlined and engaging sea battle mechanic - because there's none. On the other hand streamlined and engaging sea battle mechanic is a talking point in almost every Pirate Borg review. Weird. If you tell hundred of hiking enthusiasts that you find hiking boring and ask why do they like hiking, you will also hear very similar talking points. And most likely in similar order. Weird. And I don't get defensive. I just find your conspiracy theories a funny.

[@Sanguivore]

@@merethif You're still missing my point, but I'm not going to bother explaining it again. Have a good one.

[@tevkaber4604]

Like you mentioned, for me, the big “wow” with Shadowdark is the efficiency, the design constraint of fitting things on a 2-page spread. To be fair, I was also wowed by Old School Essentials for the same reason. It’s not that Shadowdark was revolutionary, but it’s just really well-crafted. Shadowdark also takes a lot of elements from games I like, and combines it in a clean, tight package. Maybe it’s just my age, but a lot of games have just too much text and a lot of fluff, Shadowdark feels like it was boiled down to be concentrated GAME with the fluff evaporated away and the flavor left behind. I’m a bit sick of massive tomes, these days I give bonus points to an RPG with a digest/A5 format and clean delivery. Probably Mothership will be the next RPG I pick up, if that says anything about my tastes.

[@tevkaber4604]

And also, it didn’t replace 5e for my group, DCC did, for a year or so, now we’re playing a AD&D (1e) campaign.

[@raymondpaulgomez]

The design efficiency and perfection as a tight package was enough to be the deciding factor in SD being my personal 'default' rules base for any solo campaign I start. Are there better games? Probably. Are they as easy to use and reference? Highly unlikely. Bonus mention, it's really simple to tack on homebrew compared to other systems.

[@Sacred_Art_of_Gaming]

Well now I have to get Shadowdark because ManAlone has it… There have been a slew of games that just kind of speak to me. It’s hard to say why or how but I can say that many of them seem to be tied to Runehammer in some way. Also…are those Runequest dice multiplying?!?!

[@whangbar]

Your dice spiel was amusing. It's true. I'm not breaking enough dice on the table.

[@andrzejzielinski9213]

Nah. Shadowdark is cool and all. Great for introducing rpgs to kids. Great for solo play. But man, it's been done so many times. It's not unique. You should look up Blades in the Dark, that's a genius-slash-unique game.

[@mrguy3678]

haven't watched yet but here's my experience. I got interested in osr games from youtube but didn't have friends interested. looked on discord for active communities to try and play a game or two. Found Arcane Library and lucked into my current weekly long term campaign with excellent dm. I remember trying a few other games and not finding any active communities on discord. So network effect made a big difference is what I'm saying basically

[@mrguy3678]

Also for anyone interested, here are the tweaks I would reccomend and implement if I was running the game (from my limited experience): 1. Buff thieves slightly. Thieves are very fragile in combat which is fine except the tradeoff of damage and utility they get for that weakness isn't enough imo. Compared to spellcasters, thieves get backstab (which is their one trick in combat and difficult to pull off, while only being comparable to the fighter's damage output in the best case scenario) as well as a vague collection of out-of-combat skills with no defined mechanic which threatens to step on the toes of other classes or be stepped on in turn depending on how the dm rules it. I would simply give the thief a d6 hit die to make back stabbing in melee a viable if risky strategy instead of pure suicide. I would also give them a limited use ability to automatically know if there are traps and/or hidden doors in their vicinity, which gives them a way to save the party resources (time) while still allowing non-thieves to search for and disable traps using player creativity and intelligence. 2. Use luck tokens sparringly (if at all). This is the most common issue I have seen every dm (including me the one time I ran a session) make in this game which throws off the balance of the classes and encounters. Do not give characters a free luck token every session or (heaven forbid) every in-game day! Do not allow characters to freely share luck tokens and use them on other players' rolls. Do not use the "luck battery" supplemental classes like bard and seer or incorporate luck tokens into your own class design. The class that is buffed the most by abusing luck tokens is the Wizard, which is what I play, and probably my favorite class in Shadowdark despite not usually liking casters in DnD. Wizards are given the most tools out of any class to solve any given problem, with the tradeoff being high risk of failure. Chances are, if I'm a wizard who has been collecting scrolls and learning spells I have a "magic bullet" solution to triviallize an encounter or at least greatly enhance our odds if used correctly and creatively. The tradeoff to that high reward is supposed to be the chance of failing to cast that spell, and then having to make do with my other spells. Luck token abuse all but guaruntees that I learn every spell and succeed on every cast, which hurts what is otherwise my favorite class.

[@rogerc4196]

Looking forward to your sophomore album, "Patterns of Memetic Desire"

[@amanisalone]

I prefer my desire to be of the machinic variety

[@gedece]

The Arcane library was the first person I knew that made D&D adventures that managed to get each encounter or scene in 1 page of the total. Such attention to detail is all over Shadowdark, and that's why we love it.

[@steved1135]

Thanks for this. As an old (54) D&D gamer I have to admit I've long been intrigued by Shadowdark. My only impediment has been that it's nigh impossible to get. It's been on backorder now for over 3 months... ugh

[@lukeenyart1073]

My copy just shipped out of NJ yesterday. Maybe more copies finally are available earlier than expected. Last I heard most expected them in February.

[@torq21]

As newcomer to ttrpgs I don't have much to say about Shadowdark as an RPG system. However, as a solo RPG gamer that has looked at a lot of RPG systems, I canI can say that the solodark rules are pretty much a joke. A simple yes no oracle don't make your game good for solo roleplay.

[@raymondpaulgomez]

I played Shadowdark for dozens of hours before learning who Kelsey was, or any of the controversy or social phenomena aspects of the game. I saw it recommended, it checked some boxes I liked, and I tried it. I like it, but ultimately the only reason I play it over something like Dragonbane or Old School Essentials is just that it's easy to run and reference. I essentially memorized the entire system in just a few sessions. It's a good game. It's even a great game IF you're in the target audience. But the only real standout here apart from the minor mechanical things you mentioned is the presentation of information. It's a system that get's out of the way of play (the spell descriptions are a good window into this but you can only really "get" what I mean by this through play I think). In my opinion it's bar none the most solo-compatible OSR - adjacent game for a multitude of reasons. Was it astroturfed? Yes. Aggressively. For both noble and ignoble reasons. It's fairly transparent if you really look at it. It's kinda gross but I suspect that most people's motives leaned toward trying to create a zeitgeist around a particular D&D alternative during the OGL scandal. That's my take based on what I've been able to piece together - I was under a rock for a year or two while this all played out and had to play catch up after the fact. Is it a good enough game that it's going to hook someone who isn't into this subgenre? Nope. Because it is what it is. If you weren't enthralled by OSE or the like, this one won't be the one that will change your mind. Sounds like this is the camp you fall into; and that's alright.

[@AmazingAaxor]

Way too much in my head to be able to write in a comment, but overall I enjoyed this social take on the Shadowdark phenomenon. As a fan of the system, I have to concede that mimetic desire is indeed rampant within the hobby of gaming. It is a rare thing to truly discover your own desire without the side of others first impressions. Thanks for this conversation.

[@philipvanover35]

I almost backed Shadow dark.. until I found Knave 2e. Have you tried it?

[@MagnificentDevil]

I have both, and I like Shadowdark better.

[@tidfisk]

I have a mimetic desire to buy Black Void now...

[@JustinGrant-c2c]

imo it is just 5e streamlined and with better GM support, which is super refreshing.. but its just 5e with a lot of its flaws and drawbacks like bounded accuracy etc, the tables are so nice and there is nothing stopping people from using those system agnostic, I use sandbox rpg, pathfinder for stat blocks, and shadowdark tables, solo tables (gm autopilot) and my players really only see the fact that the scaling mechanics are pf2e

[@TheZabbiemaster]

Man I knew you were going to do that in the beginning you sly rogue haha.

[@lilcwa]

SD is a fine game, in very large part because it cribs virtually all of its best-loved signature mechanics from other sources (some from sources very close to KD, as far as I can tell from cursory research). Is it a “perfect” collection of these features? Clearly, for some people it is. Does this merit its accolades and awards? Maybe? Is its level of innovation significantly overblown? Maybe. Having played it a couple of times and run it once, I can say as an old grognard that, while elements of SD spark some nostalgia for 40+ years ago, it holds little allure for me, especially because there are modernized rules-light systems (including DM Scotty’s aforementioned EZD6 as well as Runehammer’s Index Card RPG) that are much more versatile for different game styles and genres and easier to use when onboarding new players. Whatever you think of SD at the gaming table, I think SD’s real contribution to the hobby is as an unparalleled textbook example for the potential indie RPGs have in today’s hobby marketplace when marketed with ruthless aggression. SD’s $1.3M Kickstarter campaign in the context of its pre- and post-campaign buzz will be an example MBAs will study and cite in business schools for decades to come. Thank you for this brave analysis video.

[@bradhenry832]

Shipping to Australia is insane price. i will go take a look.

[@keithmcgrath687]

Theory 3 made me get a tin foil hat.

[@Dystopiapathy]

I love Venn diagrams. Can you do a review of Venn diagrams?