Solar Lithium Batteries ARE CHEAPER than Lead Acid! Proof Included

[@WillProwse]

Reference List for Battery Study Articles and Data Sheets: Vmax cycle life: www.vmaxtanks.com/assets/images/technical%20info%20folder/Cycles%20VS%20Depth%20of%20Discharge.pdf UB121000 Data Sheet: manualzz.com/doc/8611385/ub121000_datasheet Simpliphi 10,000 charge cycle life: simpliphipower.com/documentation/phi-2-7/simpliphi-power-phi-2-7-warranty-phi-3-5-warranty.pdf $470 100ah lifepo4 cells: www.aliexpress.com/item/32881836960.html?spm=2114.search0604.3.43.1f3818dcja20fd Low temp performance: batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures Low temp for lithium and lead acid compared: batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_at_high_and_low_temperatures Battle born data: www.altestore.com/store/deep-cycle-batteries/lithium-batteries/battle-born-lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4-batteries-p40844/ What I recommend is on my website: www.mobile-solarpower.com/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Does off-grid solar confuse you? Check out my DIY friendly website for solar system packages and product recommendations, and so much more! www.mobile-solarpower.com Join our DIY solar community! #1 largest solar forum on the internet for beginners and professionals alike: www.diysolarforum.com Check out my best-selling, beginner-friendly 12V off-grid solar book (affiliate link): amzn.to/2Aj4dX4 If DIY is not for you, but you love solar and need an offgrid system, check out Tesla Solar. Low prices and great warranty, and they can take your entire house offgrid with their new Powerwalls: ts.la/william57509 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My solar equipment recommendations (Constantly updated! Check here first): 12V/48V Lithium Batteries: www.mobile-solarpower.com/solar-batteries.html Solar System Component Directory: www.mobile-solarpower.com/solarcomponents.html Plug-N-Play Systems: www.mobile-solarpower.com/full-size-systems.html Complete 48V System Kits: www.mobile-solarpower.com/complete-48v-solar-kits.html DIY Friendly Air Conditioner/ Heat Pumps: www.mobile-solarpower.com/solar-friendly-air-conditioners.html Complete 48V System Blueprint: www.mobile-solarpower.com/48v-complete-system-blueprint.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My Favorite Online Stores for DIY Solar and Coupon Codes: -Current Connected: SOK, Victron and High Quality Components. Best prices and warranty around: currentconnected.com/?ref=wp -Signature Solar: Cheap Server Rack Batteries and Large Solar Panels: www.signaturesolar.com/?ref=h-cvbzfahsek -Ecoflow Delta Official Site: My favorite plug-n-play solar generator: us.ecoflow.com/?aff=7 -AmpereTime: Cheapest 12V batteries around: amperetime.com/products/ampere-time-12v-100ah-lithium-lifepo4-battery?ref=h-cvbzfahsek -Rich Solar: Mega site and cheaper prices than renogy! Check them out: richsolar.com/?ref=h-cvbzfahsek -Shop Solar Kits: Huge site with every solar kit you can imagine! Check it out: shopsolarkits.com/?ref=will-p -Battery Hookup: Cheap cell deals bit.ly/2mIxSqt 10% off code: diysolar -Watts 24/7: Best deals on all-in-one solar power systems, with customer support and distribution here in the USA: watts247.com/?wpam_id=3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact Information: I am NOT available for personal solar system consult! If you wish to contact me, this is my direct email: [e-mail] Join the forum at diysolarforum.com/ if you wish to hang out with myself and others and talk about solar FTC Disclosure Statement and Disclaimers: Every video includes some form of paid promotion or sponsorship. Some links on this youtube channel may be affiliate links. We may get paid if you buy something or take an action after clicking one of these. My videos are for educational purposes only. Information is subject to change/update at any time. Electricity is DANGEROUS and can kill. Be smart and use common sense :) DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, An affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com

[@bernardthedisappointedowl6938]

Once you go Lithium, you never go Quadrivium? - Though to be fair, you would need a time machine to actually go Quadrivium, it being a medieval university of mathematical 'arts', ^oo^

[@woggs1]

I can't read all that, but I am sure it is a great cure for insomnia. I would rather watch KZbin videos.

[@charliebrownau]

Every considered most people dont want to order the lifepos build a case join it together or they can goto ebay in AU+UK+USA+CA+NZ and order an 200 dollar battery ready to go

[@raymondcastro8066]

Slow down ,!!!!😉

[@BikeHelmetMk2]

@@woggs1 I used to read about 400 pages of info per day due to work, and some personal goals to learn a few new skills. For a few weeks (almost a month) I Ctrl+P'd everything I read on the internet to see just how much I was reading through. Worked out to around 63000 printed pages per month. (Admittedly with a lot of border crap that websites come with.) Sometimes you've just gotta read to find things out. I have solved more than a few arcane and obscure computer glitches by reading through 20 page forum threads. I also helped my parents find some excellent mutual funds by reading through dozens of fund prospectuses. You need to read lots until reading lots doesn't bug you. If you start to find it relaxing, then suddenly the world's answers are at your fingertips.

[@avlisk]

I bought the LiFePo4 Battle Born because I didn't want to have to think about batteries or battery maintenance for the next 10 years. Set it and forget it!

[@avlisk]

@@renindy Only needed one because all I run are a Dometic fridge, a Fantastic fan, a second fan, a few lights, and several USB charging ports for my electronics. With a 100w panel on the van, it's been very satisfactory.

[@denisstanley6546]

Up front costs for bateries that in most boats sit idle 90 percent of time is expensive. A single solar panel or trickle charger is cheaper. 2 to 3 years from a 12 volt house and a 12 volt cranking lead acid battery is about ok. Treated well they may last a little longer. Lithium give great specs for number of charge times. Do they actually last that long. I have not seen the warranty thay give but i suspect its pro rata years. So if it 10yr warranty and dies after 5 years you may get 40 percent reduction on new batteries if that company is syill around. Importies are liable for warranties so if it comes from overseas you have to chase local importer. Is he still in business.

[@markrobertson5200]

Your enthusiasm is infectious Will. Keep cranking the content out

[@michaeldoherty2289]

You nailed it. The initial price tag is all people see and they ignorantly scoff at LiFePO4.. But it doesn't take much analysis to see through it. Just finishing my 12v 240ah aluminum case prismatic cell build. I stole this 240ah 4 cell build with a high quality 200a BMS for 897 dollars including shipping. Got it in 2 weeks directly from the factory in Shenzhen. By the time I added a silicone 20W heating pad with a heat sink, and TSC-1000 thermostat, and built an insulated box, I still spent less than a Battleborn 100ah and got a 240ah system that will last me for decades in my travel trailer with 400W of PV on the roof! Lithium all the way, and if you are willing to learn to build a battery, its even cheaper!!!!

[@PaDutchRunner]

Where did you get the heating pad, heat sink and thermostat?

[@michaeldoherty2289]

All ebay items. @@PaDutchRunner iexcell Silver Tone Aluminium Heat Diffuser Heatsink LYSB01B6DLG3O-ELECTR, Temperature Controller STC-1000 Digital Multifunction Thermostat 12/24V 100X80Mm 12V 20W Heated Bed Heater Pad Silicone Heating Mat For 3D Printer . All are available from sellers in the US. I you want to save a few bucks and have time you can also get them directly from China in 2-3 weeks time. Make sure you get 12V temp controller if your system is 12V! Good luck.

[@PaDutchRunner]

Michael Doherty thx!!!!

[@bensonsspeedshop1191]

Awesome, Just Awesome!

[@michaeldoherty2289]

@@bensonsspeedshop1191 Just got back from camping with it for a few weeks and its even more awesome than I thought! The performance is simply incredible. SLA batteries are in the rear view mirror now. Will never use them again.

[@Kosmonooit]

its the upfront costs that put people off Lithium

[@AndreasEUR]

And the fact that it's not always cheaper.

[@GeorgeOu]

You can buy half the capacity in Lithium Ion and have the same effective usable capacity. That alone eliminates the price difference.

[@larryjanson4011]

not so much “put off”. more like “locked out”. i now run 4 6V in my rv. very heavy. i wish i could afford 4 battle born. might try building my own.

[@GeorgeOu]

@@larryjanson4011 Just go with DIY Solar's recommended cheap lithium cells or cheap fully built systems. They're a fraction of the cost of battle born.

[@Michael-zp9kl]

I've never heard someone talk about batteries so enthusiastically. Great channel!

[@Back2SquareOne]

Thanks for this video. I just want to point out that even if Lithium were more expensive, ( which it is not), I would still choose it. I don't go RVing so I can spend my time daily monitoring and nursing my batteries so I can avoid damaging them. I don't need another hobby. I want to think about my power system as little as possible. I don't want a system that is so fragile that if I don't constantly keep it topped off, it starts to permanently degrade. Lithium's advantages in this respect make it FAR more desirable to me. Who needs the time sink, unreliability, and headaches of dealing with lead acid?

[@WillProwse]

Exactly!! I totally agree. Lead acids take work. Even adding a trickle charger when not in use is a pain. Not fun at all! You get it

[@xraykadiddlehopper8067]

I agree 100% BUT, The up front costs to buy lithium are the biggest roadblocks for most. $600-$1000 is a lot of money for most. Plus a lithium capable charge controller is nessasary.

[@WillProwse]

But with usable capacity, you still spend same amount. That is covered halfway through the video. Practically the same cost! Raw cell system for lithium is actually way cheaper than AGM!! Brand new!

[@AaronGeller]

Can you save up or use a 0% interest payment plan through Amazon?

[@Zeppelinlv2007]

Even if you borrow money at a low interest rate from those credit card deals to purchase the lifepo4 upfront, it's still comparatively cheaper in the long run. Example: I always get those credit card checks in the mail 12 months @ 0% (+4% transaction fee). $950 100ah BattleBorn + 4% transaction fee = $988. Pay $82.34 a month for a 12 months. Paying for one year to have a 10 year warranty and super cool lifepo4 batteries is worth it over lead acid batteries.

[@WillProwse]

@BDM victron is great for lithium. My favorite combo. So easy to program.

[@LambySRI]

I currently use epever mppt to charge 4s 18650. I have equalisation, boost, and float all set to the same voltage. Has been working well for a few months now. Charge to 3.95v per group, and cut off at 3.25v

[@deenibeeniable]

"...in my dad's shop when I was younger." Ahhh. Now I get it.

[@AQUATICSLIVE]

Good comparison the only reason I skip Lithium is the temperature issues. You made that temperature point; I switched back Odyssey Extreme for my area they are rated to -40 which I need. Lithium just don't work at all in the cold I had to run a heater for the battery and still lost allot of capacity it only lasted two years so not for my area in Iowa.

[@Zeppelinlv2007]

Sounds rough. Maybe building an insulation box for the batteries would help from reaching such extreme cold temperatures.

[@stevek6486]

As will stated, no battery works well at those temps. Not sure of your situation but in an rv or home you can safely move the batteries into conditioned space as they do not off-gas like lead acid. The one situation that I haven’t been able to come up with a reasonable solution away from lead acid is remote solar electric fencing - the added solar needed to heat the batteries would be way out of line vs replacing the battery regularly - ive had situations where I just bring in/swap a battery every few days and charge it from ac when I couldn’t rely on solar especially when it is so freaking cold out! I’ve lived in Iowa my whole life, glad to see other “locals” on here.

[@PaDutchRunner]

Get a propex heater and set the thermostat to like 40 degrees when you’re not in the vehicle. They’ll be fine.

[@richardhobbs9038]

I bought a 24kw lithium battery a couple years ago for $9k . It included wheels and it's own propulsion system, air conditioning, GPS navigation, stereo, etc. . . . . you get the idea ! The illustrious state of California (sarcasm?) has given me $700. off my electric bill through SDG&E ($200. first year then $500. last year & waiting to find out how much this year !) for having made this purchase. I am very happy with my lithium battery ! ! !

[@paulcowan9427]

Will.... I get a huge kick out of your channel. You’re very good at dumbing this down so the rest of us can understand it. Well maybe just so I can understand it. Thanks for doing the math and keep up the great work ......it’s not only very informative it’s extremely entertaining. Paul

[@jamestrombley386]

I dry camp in the deserts of Arizona. I've killed three sets of lead acid batteries not having enough solar power to charge them. 120 watt go power portable solar panel might have been enough on lithium. I've since added a 200 watt panel and new charge controller. I was going back and forth on buying lithium vs. AGM. Your video is help me make the right choice lithium all the way when I can scare up the Megabucks. I do realize that the lithium is a better value but that upfront cost hurts. Thank you so much for this video and the other ones I've watched. It did help take the sting out of the cost of lithium.

[@n1k1george]

I was so close to converting my camper van into dual 6v battery system just because that's we did in the old days to increase ah capacity. Videos like this really educated me to the advantages of the new LifePo technology and what good sense it made to choose lithium despite the initial cost. Now I have a 100ah Battle Born Lithium in my van to provide worry free juice on campouts - and hauling around 115lbs less weight in the process!

[@Nodularguy1]

I've been in the battery business for almost 20 years selling everything you can think of from Lithium to Giant forklift batteries. Everything this guy says is basically true. You can buy better quality leadacid and take very good care of them to get some longer life, but it won't have the cycles of Lithium.

[@chrisschuck2974]

I feel like you should start recommending and reviewing some of the smaller LifePO4 batteries. A 40AH or 50AH lithium battery would probably suffice for a lot of your viewers' needs, and they'd have a bit less sticker shock. Great video!

[@WillProwse]

hey that's a really good idea. I did not think of that. I'm going to get my hands on some and do a capacity test and make a tiny system. Thanks for the great idea

[@CamboLivin]

@@WillProwse , that is correct. A lot of us have been living comfortably in our small RV with 100amp AGM's...so we really only need a 50amp lithium.

[@Zeppelinlv2007]

I agree with that too. Plus, chances are some people could even downsize their battery bank to a point to save upfront cost because of the efficiency of lifepo4 over lead acid.

[@6thinningsports223]

Another well done presentation Will! Your enthusiasm is infectious! What is even better, is that if you DIY a battery set up, you not only can bring the price for LFP down below lead acid, but you learn the in's and out's of your batteries to better manage them! You are certainly and inspiration, now.... back to my battery building! :)

[@GoRed624]

Hi Will ... I love your videos (I get sooo much out of them) and I love love love your book!!! I think listening to your videos really saturated my brain with the solar tech language so now when I'm reading your book it really makes sense!! A real confidence builder!! Thank you so much for all of the work you put in to all of these videos ... you are a great teacher!! I'm still working on my magic recipe to cover all of my bases for an off grid van build and I'm sure it's a combination of your enthusiasm plus the confidence I've gained, but it has been quite a little while since I've been this psyched about something/anything that was barely even on my radar a short while ago. Please keep'em coming!! 🌝

[@esasaarinen2423]

From my experience typical life expectancy for agm, flooded lead acid, lithium is about the same which is about 6-10 years . lithium batteries have great cycling expectancy but the flooded type tubular-plated, lead acid have a design life of over 20 years at 20ºC.

[@shawnd567]

Lead acid/AGM are like 25-50% capacity at 6 years.

[@davidadams421]

Awesome video. Your knowledge/experience is outstanding and your desire to share this with randoms is just inspirational. You are clearly a strong advocate for lithium chemistries but I like how you are always balanced in your content e.g. there still are scenarios when VRLA batteries are the better option. Keep up the good work, Will. I don't think there is a better channel on KZbin discussing this topic.

[@mckenziekeith7434]

Great video. Two things you didn't mention. For stationary standby/backup power, where the batteries are not cycled much, lead acid is not so bad. Lead acid batteries can survive for a long time connected to a battery tender or multi-stage charger. But, in warm/hot environments lead acid will always fail prematurely. In places like Hawaii, lead acid (all varieties) is almost a non-starter. No matter whether you discharge it or not, it will be dead in 1 to 3 years just because of the heat. The LiFePO4 batteries hold up much better in the heat.

[@Cryo837]

Been waiting for a video comparing the two battery technologies. Thanks!!!

[@Mathijs303]

Awesome indeed, technology shift!

[@JasonCarmichael]

The phrase you are looking for is, "Total Cost of Ownership".

[@WillProwse]

That is better term, thank you

[@ecostudio1044]

or "life cycle cost" Rich

[@ryanjames7115]

Wow. That was eye opening. Thank you. I got those cheap agm's one year ago and they are already basically trash, wish I would have invested in lithium.

[@silenttraveler2710]

Your videos are getting better and better William Prowse The Prince of Solar...

[@silenttraveler2710]

zheneggmobile Can you do better ??? You Trolls are always so negative “You must be a Democrat “ *loser*

[@mattgreen9323]

Great videos bud I always watch the whole video to the end

[@jws3925]

I hear you and agree to a certain extent. Our system is a remote cabin that is left empty for most of the year including the winter months Dec. thru March. Since the cabin is in the Northeast, winter temps are well below freezing. Since most lithium batteries don't tolerate extreme cold well, we have gone with AGM's. Would like to go the lithium route.

[@tantryl]

I am 100% in the Lithium camp but I understand the appeal of a cheaper AGM setup, especially if your needs are small. Say you only *need* ~30Ah on an average day but every now and then you want to pull ~70Ah. If you get a Battle Born 50Ah for $575 you're fine most days but you lose that ability to pull a big draw on occasion. If you get a VMax AGM 125Ah for $280 you're fine every day. Since you're only going to 25% DOD on the AGM most days it'll still have a good 1,600 cycles, let's say the occasional bigger draw reduces that to 1,500 cycles. Assuming you discharge and charge it every single day that's a tad over 4 years. At that point your battery will only have 60% of it's capacity which is still 75Ah and enough to handle your regular ~30Ah days but not your big days. You would probably get 6 years of every single day usage on your ~30Ah usage. On the Battle Born 50Ah your DoD is going to be 60% on the average day. I'm having trouble finding a good data sheet for the BB5012 but let's say that gives you 4,000 cycles. You're already at 11 years and since your daily is only 30Ah it'll probably be able to provide that for around 15 years. So the Lithium can't provide what you want for a big day but it does last a lot longer. That's the big trade off there. That and it's double the cost. Plus there are other costs with Lithium. Say I want a simplified system with minimal wiring that can charge through my solar panel(s) and my car's alternator. If you want a single device to do that the cost for one that supports Lithium is currently about 150% the price (in Australia, C-Tek D250SA ~$300, Enerdrive DC2DC+ ~$450). This is true for a lot of things - a lot more devices, especially cheaper ones for smaller setups, don't support Lithium. And here's the rub: 4 years is a pretty long time. It's hard to know what your needs are going to be in 4 years time. It's hard to know what other battery products you might want are going to be on the market then. Resale value on batteries isn't great, even on a good one like a Battle Born. If you're spending double on the initial setup and not knowing if you're actually going to be using the battery for more than 4 years then the cheaper option makes sense. Again, I'm lithium all the way. But I understand going with AGM.

[@WillProwse]

Great comment!!! Well stated. Totally agree. Awesome examples

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

This!

[@henrirotthier5710]

You are so right. I just swapped my 3 AGM 150Ah batteries in my sailboat for one 400Ah LiFePO4. So happy with this. I have much more capacity and saved 90 kg !!!!!!!! in weight. I bought 8 prismatic 200Ah batteries and installed à 123SmartBMS on it. Easy to do. I now even installed a temperature controlled ventillation on the MOSFETs (that equalize the batteries) so they don't warm to much when balancing. For the people that still hesitate (like me a couple of months ago). DON'T !

[@jacklabloom635]

Good video. You convinced me that lithium is way cheaper than lead acid for all high-duty-cycle solar applications.

[@steve-o6413]

🌤Hi Sunshine, great point, it's not like the alternator charging your car's battery everytime you use it...

[@loveourplanetadventures7306]

Great info Will. I am buying another lithium to go parallel. Also, replaced 1000 watt inverter with a 1500 watt. If you are running a 1500 watt inverter & run a kettle for heating water or small induction oven you should be in good shape fitted with 250-170 amp circuit breaker. Really, the battery comes down to storage for boondocking. The sun isnt always available & didnt want invest in dc/DC charger. Battery storage us more important. With 360 watts of solar & 200 ah I should be good.

[@84Prerunner]

Great video! I agree lithium is the way to go for offgrid people, but they may not be for everyone. I am one of those people that has AGMs that are 8yrs old and still going. They have lost some capacity, but they still work. This is because its in a camper that is only used for recreational use. It gets taken out on about 6 trips a year, totaling about 20-25days/nights. The rest of the time it sits with solar keeping them topped off day after day. lithium is a hard pill for someone like me to swallow when i likely wont own this thing in 10 more years and the AGMs have been problem free.

[@AaronGeller]

84Prerunner the age of the AGMs isn’t the problem. It’s how far they’re discharged on a regular basis.

[@HappyHarryHardon]

I’m using three UB1210000000000 for my first solar system in my RV, I was happy with them because my electric bill went to zero but now, a year and half later, they are dead. My 2 100ah lithium sweeties are going to be here tomorrow. Thank you Will!

[@WillProwse]

Sure :)

[@sdpelly]

My motorhome uses four very cheap rv/marine batteries - led lights, fridge circuit board and overnight furnace - which never gets them anywhere near this full discharge you are talking about. My real world usage allows this sub $400 battery pack to give me 6 years of life. I understand lithium might last two to three times as long, but at 5 to 10 times the cost. Your study keeps showing full cycle down to low voltages that I never experience in my twenty years in this 31 foot motorhome camping in mostly winter (below freezing) conditions. I understand I am lucky to be camping in usually well sunlit areas and my solar easily keeps my batteries working well for extended trips.

[@ProlificInvention]

*DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse* Curious to hear your opinion on Ni/Fe ---Nickel/Iron batteries (AKA Edison batteries) I'd love to see a video comparison of a high quality Ni/Fe for solar applications Vs Lead acid and/or lithium. Love how you do advantages and specifications in such an in depth manner, you are a bright young man.

[@Hemifan4266]

Can i store a lithium battery in a garage during the winter in the temp never drops below 35 degrees?

[@mikestone9129]

Only you could get so excited over talking solar and batteries. Love your videos.

[@ericholman6116]

If I put a lithium battery in my cabin system what happens when I show up in the winter once a week? Will the battery not be charged because of the cold? I heat with a wood stove only when I am there.

[@AaronGeller]

The batteries can be kept warm with a heating pad. But maybe you have very small loads that don't need much power.

[@HomesteadEngineering]

Lithium batteries are better but they are not cheaper yet. The mistake people make when comparing them is that they use a 50% DOD for the FLA. If you use a 20% DOD with the FLA Trojan L16RE-B's they will last 4,600 cycles (13 years). Maintenance is 10 min/month.

[@WillProwse]

You didn't watch the video

[@Sharpe084]

I have been looking at alll these battery videos to find a reliable battery for my cpap machine. Your videos are by far the best with way more details than I need but I love to know. Keep it up!!!

[@jamest.5001]

The batteries may be cheaper, but the cash to power ratio is much better with lithium!!

[@georgekane1985]

Well, I have to say you really know your stuff. I almost didn't want to hear what you were saying because I have an RV with two AGM batteries. The performance is mediocre to say the least, and is......well I don't even know what the weight is but it's too much. I have two electric bikes that use lithium iron phosphate batteries, so I'm familiar with their performance to weight ratio. I don't bicycle enough miles to come anywhere close to the life cycle rate of the batteries. I'm also aware of the fact that electric bikes are practical because of the advances in electric car technology.

[@MrInnovativeEnergy]

As a solar installer myself I also see lead acid falter badly in cold weather. If my customers don't keep their lead acids warm, they can easily lose 50 percent capacity overnight! I now tell them to keep them over 50F at all times.

[@thesurvivalist.]

You get the benefit of more Capacity is useable, lower price, less weight, it charges faster, and longer life cycle!

[@posteroonie]

The weight difference is a big deal for mobile van-life/RV applications. Knocking 100, 200, or more pounds off of the weight of the rig saves money with every mile.

[@michaeldoherty2289]

Space difference too. Who has too much space in an RV? Space is limited and can be repurposed to better use when opened up with less battery volume!!

[@stattytravels4638]

Hey Will, love your videos, the only problem here is you said several times using that battery for starting a car. That is the wrong battery for solar, starting a car you need CCA "cold cranking amps" car batteries typically will have higher cold cranking amps and lower amp hour ratings. While the battery design for solar typically is just the opposite, it's not a good battery to be used in a car the drawers too hard and too fast. Batteries that we use for solar or just the opposite little to no cold cranking amps in a higher amount of amp hours. Again love your videos!!! I just don't want people to think that you can take the battery out of your car or truck and use it efficiently on solar.

[@redsquirrelftw]

Yeah that's a good point for solar you want deep cycle. Those are not that great for starting cars but are better for discharge applications. Still don't want to go below 50% though. You CAN but it just reduces the life if you do it too much. For a 12v battery I would never go lower than 11 volts and that's even pushing it. In telecom with 48v systems they float at 54 and when power goes out we start to worry once they hit 47v and dispatch a generator. Though they will go down to like 44 and the equipment still runs, but it's hard on the batteries.

[@freddiemortos8519]

Thanks for the insight.. I am about to replace my Lead Acid Battery because it doesn't hold a charge anymore after 3 years of usage. Now i'm searching for a better battery replacement and reviews,and luckily i saw your video.. Thanks, I made my decision now.

[@alexmotlyakh5922]

12V Lithium batteries are ~ 70% capacity of nominal, not 100%. They are supposed to be used in 20-90% range, not charging over 90 and not discharging below 20. Unless you want to replace it every couple of years. For RV users the biggest benefit of Lithium is lower weight per capacity, also they can be charged only partially - there is no requirement to charge it 100% every time like led acid batts.

[@WillProwse]

That is absolutely false. Misinformation that you just posted is why I created this channel. LiFePO4 can charge and discharge 3000 or more times with a cycling bandwidth of 0-100%, and the capacity degradation will be 80%. And you can still use it after that point. It's not like lead acid where you cannot use it anymore because the internal resistance increases substantially or a cell shorts. The reason we use lifepo4 is because we can use it for 10-20 years.

[@alexmotlyakh5922]

@@WillProwse relax. Even manufacturers are now cautiously advising that charging LiFePO4 all the way to 95% is not a good idea (provided there is no balancing issue), and telling that a shallower DoD would increase the lifespan. Some even post the graphs, i.e. how much you gain with a shallower cycle. It looks like you are quoting Battleborn numbers - I recall they wrote about shallow discharge too, claiming a significant increase with 50% DoD. I would not count the life of Li batts (or any other batts) in years, but rather - in cycles. There is aging of battery materials, they are eating itself from inside since the day one, whether you're using them or not.

[@solarvanlife8177]

I'm using a cheap 200ah Chinese battery i bought off alibaba about a year ago from Kingsing Energy for $830 + 330 shipping. That's $580 per 100ah. I see some even cheaper now. The only problem was the shipping took about 3 weeks. They were excellent at answering my questions and keeping me updated in their comical broken english. It weighs in at 78 pounds. A comparable lead acid would weigh close to 200 pounds. The bms seems good. I've tested the low voltage cutout a couple times and it has a built in voltage, percentage and temp meter. It's running my laptop and router all day, apicool fridge 24/7. I run nearly everything converted to 12v except a toaster in the morning and a microwave once or twice a day. And of course 12v LED lights in the evening. I've got no problems running my power tools off the inverter when the sun's shining. It hardly touches the battery. It sucks down a charge fast at 14.4v with 600w of panels on the van roof and is usually topped back up within a couple hours. Solar is the future and just keeps getting cheaper and better every day. Thanks for the great vids and all you do Will. You've helped me immensely with my setup. Did i mention it also has a 10 year warranty?

[@AaronGeller]

Solar Van Life a warranty is only as good as long as the company is in existence. Hopefully they’ll be around for many years

[@solarvanlife8177]

@@AaronGeller That's very true. That's why i researched the company. They're a massive factory (over 300,000 square feet and 10 assembly lines) that also deals in power walls and have a very good reputation and positive reviews on alibaba. They have a wide variety of batteries that are aged and tested before they leave the factory. There's also many protections when buying through alibaba if an order goes south. I wouldn't have made this post if I wasn't confident with my experience and happy with the product.

[@stanleyayochok]

@solar van life, care to share the link to Alibaba?

[@solarvanlife8177]

@@stanleyayochok Hi Stanley I would, but i don't think it's proper to post links here on Will's channel.

[@chrismiles4401]

In colder climates I see people still using lead acid as they aren't as sensitive to the freezing temp. How do you put lithium batteries in a car?

[@g.elliott4789]

Question: 20 yr old coach. swapping Lead to LI. What else do I need to modify? charger, auto source switches, etc.?

[@nicolasbarroso]

Will please do a liquid marine batteries. They are cheap and it seams you can discharge them up to 80%. What do you think about it?

[@AaronGeller]

You can discharge many batteries to 80%, the problem is maximizing lifecycles. There are some AGMs that can achieve 400-500 cycles at 80% DoD

[@firie01]

Here in Oz we have a lithium battery that doesn’t require a charger. Have you made a video on that type of battery. The company is called itechworld,Australia. Cheers

[@thegrave2000]

Checked them out. Not that I believe any battery manufacturer when it comes to warranties but 3 years with the charge cycles they claim seems more than suspicious to me.

[@apmaman123]

Can these be replaced for use in a car? instead of the normal 12v acid battery

[@dr.winner2516]

12v lead acid is better for starting engines

[@clericoftruth8880]

15:45 That's what she said. Watched many of your vids many times. Keep up the good work!

[@dash8brj]

My lead acids (VRLA)'s have around 1500 cycles on them now, and they are starting to show a diminished capacity. They'll be getting on by the time I have all my LifePO4 cells in house ready to connect up. And I've babied my leads, they have never been below 40% DOD. If I flogged them they would have lasted less than a year. They are now 4 and a half years old. They have performed well, but the time I had to move the bank was the time I decided to go lithium. Man they are back breakers! I picked up my first 12V worth of lithiums and thought "does this box have batteries in it?!" so you'll save fuel in an RV by not having to haul a heap of lead around! I'm not in an RV setting but still, shifting a massive bank of lead from one end of the loungeroom to the other deserves a few beers once your done! Its true, the up front cost of li is more than la, but the savings in the long run far outweigh the initial outlay.

[@alukic1]

so would you recommend lithium for petrol engine vehicles ?

[@videobob6789]

Will, excellent video, Again! Need a video about protecting battery bank and or power wall housing against the cold or sub zero climates. thanks

[@lightning4871]

After watching your videos for a while now I want to tell you I’m very impressed. You are smart and articulate. The only thing is a lot of what you say is way above my head. Some times you just get too technical.

[@ScottyDMcom]

Fun lead-acid story: My sister-in-law was having problems with the starter battery in her car. She went back to Walmart to complain, but after testing it the tech said the battery was fine, so she drove home. Her sister (my wife) and I were helping her with her yard work and were out in her front yard working. As she pulled up to her driveway there was a loud BANG! Followed by hissing as the sulfuric acid ate away at the pavement. My guess was one cell was intermittently shorted about mid-cell height. When shorted it'd boil out the electrolyte. No problem until the electrolyte level got below the short. Then the spark jumped the gap and ignited the hydrogen-oxygen atmosphere in the upper half of the cell. We hosed everything down, sprinkled baking soda around the engine compartment and hosed it down again, then put all the battery bits into a box and I drove her back to Walmart. They gave her a new battery.

[@WrethaOffGrid]

Question, the Battle Born battery, I thought the BMS in it would stop the charging if the temp fell too low? I heard you say on this video that we would need a Victron device to stop the charging at the lower temps. We are upgrading our small off grid solar system (11 years old now), I have gone through 4 separate sets of deep cycle batteries over the years, now I have this Battle Born battery, we are in the process of putting together a new system with it, I'll get another battery soon to go with it. Your videos have been a huge help for us, thanks so much!

[@WrethaOffGrid]

I did confirm the Battle Born batteries BMS will stop charging if the temp goes too low.

[@motion1100]

What do you suggest I order for my golf cart ?

[@JohninTucson]

You are doing an awesome job educating the public at large Will - Go, man - GO!!! I'm so happy to see your channel blossoming and your content has become top notch. I'm proud of you my friend. An excellent comparison of these two battery chemistries and the true price difference between them. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are an enormous game changer for the Solar industry and all of the benefits now of having the Lifepo4 batteries on board your RV or in off-grid use like I will be doing. It is a NO BRAINER folks, if you are going with solar/battery installations, go with the Battleborn batteries (or equivalent LifePo4). I will be purchasing 12-16 of them myself for my off-grid property along with 16k watts of Solar. It's exciting and I can't wait for it all to happen.

[@DesertStarSystems]

One useful metric is considering lifecycle energy storage cost expressed in $/kWh. For example, Renogy AGM200 Lead Acid: 12V/200Ah with 700 charge cycles at 50% DOD and cost of $372 works out to $372 / (12V x 200 Ah / 1000 * 50% * 700) = $0.44 / kWh. Compared to Renogy Lithium Iron Phosphate LFP100S 12V/100Ah with 4000 charge cycles at 80% DOD and cost of $899 works out to $899 / ( 12V x 100 Ah / 1000 * 80% * 4000) = $0.23 / kWh. But the picture can change based on use profile. Consider you are building a grid tied but grid independent solar power system. You can generate electricity at under $0.05 / kWh, and store it in the grid for later use in a day or month for very little, with PG&E a minimum $12 monthly service charge. So, the battery is used only when there is a power outage, or PG&E cuts you off for not paying your bill or whatever. But generally you store in the grid. Lets say you want to have a 20 kWh reserve, enough to get a small house through a day with electric heating for a few hours each day. Your AGM200 battery acquisition cost is 20 KWh / ( 12V * 200 Ah / 1000) * $372 = $3100. And your LFP100S is 20 kWh / (12V * 100 Ah / 1000) * $899 = $14983. It's not quite clear what the life of either battery is when not used much, but a ten year lifetime seems to be a rule of thumb for both AGM and Lithium. So, if hardly used, the cost of ownership per year is $1489 for LFP100S system and $310 per year for AGM200 system. As Will pointed out there are other factors including charge and discharge rate dependent efficiency and capacity. But in general terms, for a heavy use scenario, Lithium seems to be only about half the price per kWh, but AGM can have a much lower ownership cost per year if you are using it mostly as a backup.

[@motog6436]

Thank you for this comment. You did the math on my suspicion that AGM is a cheaper option for "UPS" use-cases, if you can find one with a decent lifespan at low use.

[@sdbpost]

You mentioned lithium is better for 12v appliances because the voltage stays higher longer during the discharge curve. In the recent power station comparison you said one of the drawbacks to all of them except the Jackery was the voltage dropping because they weren't regulated. I think you showed some of them going below 10 volts. Where were they on the discharge curve at that point? Down to 10%-20%? Is voltage really going to be a problem with them even though they are lithium?

[@michaeldoherty2289]

The BMS will shut them down before problem low voltage is reached. All the quality drops ins like Battleborn and Relion have this low voltage protection and most of the cheaper ones do too.

[@sdbpost]

@@michaeldoherty2289 That's good for drop in battery systems, but I'm looking at ExpertPower or Jackery power stations. Do the batteries in those boxes have the same protection? I don't see that detail in the specs I've looked at.

[@michaeldoherty2289]

@@sdbpost Battleborn and Relion have very high levels of protection. Others may have only some of the protections needed. Research is key and buyer beware because there are some batteries out there that don't meet the high standards of protection necessary for the battery chemistry or the requirements of specific applications like charging in cold temperatures.

[@stevevelobahn1814]

It is as I predicted from your previous information. I'm glad I waited... Batteries are the last piece of the solar system puzzle.

[@mr.timjohnston546]

going to live FULL TIME in a truck camper and will have a sm energy star freezer and sm fridge. Those are the big items. Not worrying about anything else. I have 500 watts of panels. How many Lithium should I have.? great vid... thx

[@tonycardall7334]

I think most people know lithium is a better option but the deciding factor is the initial cost. I got 3 120ah batteries for £300 uk. Lithium lifepo4 100ah is £699.

[@gabelacross]

What about utilizing the Costco return policy? 2 6V golf cart batteries and return them every year?

[@RicochetJP]

How much solar would someone need to keep a 100ah Battle Born happy? 200W or 300W or more?

[@AaronGeller]

Ricochet_JP how often are you using it?

[@AaronGeller]

If it’s in a mobile application, you want enough solar to offset your load during the day so you have enough capacity to get you through the night (night can be as long as 14 hours in the winter in some places at its peak). If you planned your system correctly, it will not be depleted. Say you need to put 600 watts in your system by sun rise to have enough to get through the night. Then you need to have enough solar to offset your morning loads and at the same time, have a net gain. Let’s say you have 0 loads then if your battery is at half or 600 watts remaining, if you have 200 watts of solar then you’ll be getting about 150 watts or so watts which is 12.5 amps. So as long as you don’t use any loads, it’ll take 4 hours to recharge with sun. Of course that’s not practical so unless you have some large induction loads, you should be able to make do with 200 watts and 300 watts for sure. Of course it depends on your location and the time of year. But going back to the 14 hours of dark, that’s 10 hours of light. During the summer, shouldn’t be an issue.

[@RicochetJP]

@@AaronGeller Note sure yet, I'm planning to use one with a RV trailer in the near future. I'm thinking 200W to start with and then test it out for awhile and then see if I need to add more solar panels. I'm going to bite the bullet and spring for a 12V Battle Born Lithium Iron or similar.

[@redsquirrelftw]

Depends on load. I have 400w on my shed and it will keep my 80ah battery charged up all winter but that's with no load. I turn off the inverter. With panels covered in snow I get around 5-10w. I have to snow shoe to the back yard every day to take snow off but sometimes I neglect.

[@timhardman4764]

Excellent Video Will. I couldn't agree more. I'm guessing you don't have too many followers running lead acid. If you're ever at a loss for new video content I'd love an in-depth explanation of the pros and cons of using your vehicle alternator to charge Lithium batteries. I already know you don't think it is a good idea in general but since you really UNDERSTAND this stuff, what setup would be the lesser of two evils if you needed to recharge and or run an inverter directly from your battery/alternator. The application I'm thinking of is the RV'er going on the road to TOUR for a few years so they are planning to be moving almost every day. Although most vehicles have only one battery and one small alternator, please also include the scenario where the Van/Rv has two chassis batteries and two 250 amp alternators...the second one specifically for up-fit options. (some of the new vans like the Transit have this as an option and some Vans from earlier model years can get after market kits to add a second alternator but it's really expensive to do the aftermarket method). Thanks in advance for considering a video on this topic.

[@WillProwse]

Thanks! And great question. Dc to DC charger is what you need: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5S5m4OXpZ6Xobs That is the proper way to do it. Will keep vehicle charging system healthy 👍

[@mikekennemer7737]

Where do you buy your batteries from

[@BarkyWalrus]

I have a Onan gq 2500 LP generator. I can start it with my single Battle Born. Pulls 90-125 amps to start so as long as you don’t crank it for longer than 30 seconds it’s within spec of the Battle Born.

[@MrsBee-uo2lc]

Do the Lithium batteries off gas?

[@WillProwse]

Impossible. Unless you blow it up haha then gas substances will form

[@Rudykanal]

Will, I lover your videos and I’m learning from them all day. Seeing you in a RV I assume we are making systems for RV? I have an RV too. I’m in Norway and there are an awful lot of smaller RV’s around here. You are stating the LiFePo4 is so much cheaper than lead acid, hands down. This is true if you are deep cycling the batteries. If you don’t, you are not using your battery and could go with a smaller battery, right? Sort of, but not quite. A couple of times a year I need more capacity. Typical load a rainy day is 2-10A. A 50Ah lithium is empty at 50Ah. My 100Ah lead battery can easily deliver 90 Ah at the loads I’m using. I don’t run my 1000W blower for hours. A good lead acid battery will last 8 years + in this application. So stating that a 100AH lithium is equal to 200Ah lead comes with some conditions that isn’t necessarily always the case. I think too many forget to mention this. Rudy

[@rockymonge4979]

Rudy Steen Johansen. Yes if you are going deep depth of charge only a couple times a year and normally only go 20ish% depth of charge then yes on lead acid will work for a long time. Really I guess the question is,”How inconvenient is it to be out of power those few times a year?” Is it critical loads? A refrigerator without power for a few hours usually isn’t critical. And are there options at that point? A small generator(Honda 800 watts?) stowed away for those times. Plus you could take it away from the RV when needed. Might be near enough to run an extension cord to an outlet. Run the engine for alternator power. Like you said, it’s only a couple times a year, so leaving the engine idle a few hours to just get through it short term is a solution too. Just some thoughts.

[@scottrossgirvan8009]

I am about to buy our first full time off grid solar system. I was planning AGM. Was.

[@leexgx]

Yep once you lithium you don't go back (be it used tesla to Nissan leaf or straight new battery's) they are more or less plug in and forget just make sure you get branded controllable bms boards with logging capabilities, don't buy balancers that have no way to control them (I don't really call them Bms boards as they are not smart at all and could potentially destroy the battery's and can't warn you when you have a bad cell)

[@scottrossgirvan8009]

@@leexgx thanks. I'm going with bobolink solar out of Ontario. He builds systems with Volt cells and makes the harness and Bms.

[@leexgx]

@@scottrossgirvan8009 also aim for 48 to 60v (5x12v or what ever battery's you get as you can get smaller ones witch give your more options on peak voltage target) as most 64v inverters can handle that range, a system 12v is very limiting on amps and can have issues pulling high Watts and need vastly thicker cables (depends what your doing really) you can actually get battery's that have built in Bluetooth with built in self bms right into the battery (but they are not cheap) Did sound like on this video trying to charge from 12v solar panels to a 12v battery system not best way to do it (solar panels should be higher then battery so charger controller drop it to what battery's need and have a mppt so can get most optimal power from solar)

[@leexgx]

@@scottrossgirvan8009 also aim for 48 to 60v (5x12v or what ever battery's you get as you can get smaller ones witch give your more options on peak voltage target) as most 64v inverters can handle that range, a system 12v is very limiting on amps and can have issues pulling high Watts and need vastly thicker cables (depends what your doing really) you can actually get battery's that have built in Bluetooth with built in self bms right into the battery (but they are not cheap) Did sound like on this video trying to charge from 12v solar panels to a 12v battery system not best way to do it (solar panels should be higher then battery so charger controller drop it to what battery's need and have a mppt so can get most optimal power from solar)

[@leexgx]

@@scottrossgirvan8009 they look OK (bobolink) one thing I have noticed they are selling is the "RedWing Lithium BMS" this is the type of unmanged/unmonitored battery balancer I wouldn't recommend as it has no logging/remote logging or control features you just plug it in and gets all battery's within 0.03v of each other even if there is a bad cell (meaning you have to check the battery's your self every so often to make sure all battery's are good still) On the other hand the BlueBIRD BMS (not heard of it before) is an active and controllable bms with power cut out option you can see actively what each battery is doing on the screen (I assume it has controlleable settings)

[@xramoj]

11:35 so why then Lion requires controller IC, and L-A in the car charges from generator with a diode bridge?

[@raymondcastro8066]

Ok....so what kind of charge controller is needed for lithium batteries ?????

[@AaronGeller]

Any that has a lithium setting or manually programmable

[@jimmac521]

The laws of thermodynamics... they’re not just a good idea. ;-)

[@johnwren3976]

The biggest determinant is the amount of cash in the buyer's pocket. 2 6V 230Ah NAPA batteries at $134ea 2 year warranty. Keep them topped off with continuous duty solenoid while driving or a WFCO converter while plugged in. Sophisticated, no. Effective, works for me.

[@jamest.5001]

I have heard of ppl using forklift batteries for offgrid, and lasting for 30 years, plus, I don't know about the cycling, but the batteries are made for abuse, and solar isn't going to abuse it, if it has enough charging, capabilities, at 1,000, 2k, maybe even 4,000 ah plus, and 2,000lbs plus they are huge!! And massive weight wise, lithium would be ALOT smaller, but I need to use wind turbines!! With lithium!!

[@rudzon]

What is the cost of recycling a lithium battery?

[@danagillam]

What about using for emergency backup, where the batteries essentially stay fully charged always. Maybe drained to 50%, a couple times a year. I have heard that lithium go bad (like in laptop computers) whether you use them or not.

[@WillProwse]

Not with current chemistries. There are a lot to choose from. Most like to be at 50%

[@jimsjacob]

I’ll be frank... Your information is huge and you put it out at a very fast rate. Hard for me to keep up. I can see the benefit of LiFePo batteries, but lead acid/AGM has been running RV’s for decades and my current AGM is going on year 7 now. Works just fine. Can you slow down and explain a little better? For instance, “cold” charging?? Define “cold”. I’ve been hooked up to power and my AGM is getting charged and it’s in the mid 30’s outside last June @ the Grand Tetons. Was that too cold? I subscribed and I’ll keep watching and hope it sticks. Plus, it’s not just batteries you’d have to buy. Sounds like I’d have to change my converter plus add other items to maintain LiFePo batteries, so there are more expenses. Thanks for your videos and I look forward to learning more.

[@JasonRasmussen]

Can a SLA battery charger charge a Lipo4 battery? Can I swap SLA batteries with Lipo4 batteries in UPS units, mowers, etc?

[@sadiarehman9175]

Hi !!! This has been bothering me a lot . Charging and Discharging completely upto the DOD (i.e 80% ) daily ( when obviously the load isn't constant every other day ) ??? Secondly, PSoC can only be avoided through GRID-Tied Systems ( not through PVs alone ).

[@AndreasEUR]

I don't understand your question about charging and discharging. If the load isn't constant, then I guess the DoD isn't either.

[@redsquirrelftw]

Part of the issue is lithium is harder to get, and most charge controllers are also setup for lead acid. I can just go into Canadian Tire and pickup flooded lead acid batteries but for lithium based tech you pretty much have to go with Ebay/Amazon/Aliexpress and you don't know what you're getting. Also don't you have to balance charge lithium batteries at a specific constant current curve? You can't just float them at a constant voltage like you can with lead acid and can't just stick all the cells in series each cell bank has to be balanced. That's why RC car chargers etc have multiple charge leads for each cell. This can get complicated as you need to measure the current going into each cell to keep the charge rate proper, but also account for load. Things like electric cars don't have to worry about this as you are either charging it or discharging it, but in solar you're doing both. With the proper electronics, and a good reliable source of lithium cells, lithium *IS* better though, it's just that it's much more involved because of how they need to be charged and just the fact of actually obtaining them. Basically: Lead acid = beginner friendly, lithium = more advanced but better long term.

[@electric8668]

Have a system to augment home power grid. 4 100 watt Renogy mono panels with EPEVER Tracer MTTP Solar Charge Controller with a MT50 display and Kisae 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter using 4 6volt 105amp flooded Golf cart batteries. System always drained at night and now it's time to replace batteries. I need suggestions for replacing to continue running a 12 volt system.

[@Salsacola1]

Outstanding battery comparison, the safety section is on point.

[@MRxr400]

I live off grid. I have a 1600ah 24V led acid bank that has lasted 15 years and is due to be replaced soon. so over 5000 cycles. the biggest issue I have is I need storage for say 3-5 days of bad weather, then generator to pump up. so the equivalent of this size bank in lithium would need to be around 800Ah. the other thing I like is the 30% charge rate and the charging doesn't slow down like lead acid as it gets closer to full. my question is I have always understood the best way to create a bank is to have cells wired in series, is lithium fine to run parallel?

[@jasonhospedales3893]

Hi is there any lithium battery you can recommend to go in the engine bay of your vehicle?

[@ibid49]

Comparing the cheapest LiFePo to the most expensive lead acid is not apples to apples, though. Sam's club has a 215 Ah 6v battery for under $100. Get two of them for 12v and you're at like $190 including core charge. Compare that to $1000 for that Battle Born on Amazon, and suddenly it's not quite so drastic. LiFePo may still be cheaper in the long run, but for 5x the startup cost...sometimes you just gotta get what fits in your budget.

[@Zeppelinlv2007]

Apples to apples because he's using Battleborn lifepo4 (top brand) vs vmax agm lead acid battery (top brand). The $100 batteries from Sam's club/Costco are flooded lead acid. Efficiency ~ @80%. The Interstate 6v batteries are similar (210ah). $200 6v (210ah)x 2 = 12v @ 210ah. DoD of 50% for FLA -~10%- when you discharge quickly due to heat. You're looking at somewhere closer to ~88ah. Then, you'd be lucky to get 2 years out of it out of normal use. These are one year warranty. It will die slightly out of warranty. That's what mine did, but cycles count more not age. Let's give the lead acid an extra few months out of warranty: BattleBorn $950 (free shipping + no tax out of Nevada) = 8 year warranty + 2 year 30% discount prorate warranty = 10 year. These can make it to 10 years+. Interstate FLA: 96 months. 96/~15 month life = 6.4. $200 x 6.4 = $1,280 $330 difference between lifepo4 and FLA.

[@Zeppelinlv2007]

I agree on one thing, the title should be "True Total Cost of...". Budget and cheaper is too vague and relative. It's no different than cars. Just like owning a Lexus is costly upfront, but true cost to own is lower than any Chrysler or Dodge product.

[@cosmindudu6411]

What are NCA battery?

[@joyceyoungblood7927]

Where do we buy the battle born lithium batteries?

[@edwardgilmour9013]

on the freezing temperature issue: freeze a PbSO4 battery if it is discharged and that is the end of it!

[@redeemedheathen]

Good points, well taken. I scored 700ah of new AGM lead acid for $500 total, getting deals from people who didn't finish building their kits. Sure, its about 500lbs of battery and im only factoring about 350ah of usable, but if they can last me at minimum 3 years then I'm happy. For my next battery solution i'm already obviously interested in going lithium for the many good points you mentioned. I wish there was a standard way of comparing battery technology in general, like dollars per amp hour with longevity factored in, so the buyer can easily compare. Maybe there is, but its not readily apparent.

[@imark7777777]

Upfront cost! I have a SLA car battery that I've been using as a battery pack that just went internal resistance bad. I can replace it for about $100 or to replace it with lithium $500.

[@citic101]

hi what batteries could i use for a small electruc truck ? 12 VOLT ? i no NOTHING about baterries thanks from france

[@twong689]

The notion of usable capacity is new to me. I would like to caution everyone there are three types of lithium batteries, namely, the lithium ion, lithium polymer, LiFePo4. The first type is hazardous in high temperature and may cause fire.