Solving the Problem with Soulslike Games

[@DrewSunn]

What's your favorite "Soulslike" game? Bonus points if you can tell me why!

[@DrewSunnPlays]

Hollow Knight is my favorite game period, but Elden Ring is pretty up there too. The original Dark Souls will always have a special place in my heart though, the game practically raised me, as well as Dark Souls 3 for how it wrapped up the story of the series.

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

I mean aside Hollow Knight just having a special place. I really liked Lies of P. I enjoyed the story, especially the moments that were heartbreaking (Grandma), and choosing if you were going to stay in your box of how your were made or to break out of those chains that were keeping you. It had great dramatics (bonding with characters, learning their backstories, betrayal!) Also the music? MWAH. The game was beautiful visually, some things being actually pretty but others in a grungy sort of way (look I went to Hot Topic when I was a teen, that ain't ever going away at this point). I also just really liked the concept of making something human. Does always telling truth or lie make you a doll or human, or does showing heart, even if if you're lying sometimes but other times being truthful do that, as you're following a voice inside of you? You started as a doll, given a mind, possibly grow a heart, advance and change, and it's beautiful. You become human (subjectively as it's based on the player's choices, but you get it). All it all, I think it's just a beautiful game. We're gonna play the DLC right? Right? (also apparently there's a sequel in the works?)

[@DrewSunn]

@@Narutosonicrule1245 I will be, yes, loved Lies of P

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

@@DrewSunn Yay! Hooray!

[@robotikwolf7951]

armored core, big mech/robot make brain go brrr

[@Zerco526]

Just stumbled on your channel. Took until after watching the vid to realize that you weren't a long established high sub count channel. Props my dude. Production value is good, and I've always liked the topical "video essay" style vids. Subbed and can't wait to see what else you got.

[@DrewSunn]

Aw, thank you! Glad you liked the video, hope you like future ones too!

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

@@Zerco526 he also got streams if you're interested

[@cbeedoodles]

Calling all dark souls games the "Git Gud" genre just to counteract all your explaining in this video. 👍 But fr incredible video Drew!!

[@DrewSunn]

DAMN IT NOW I GOTTA REMAKE THE WHOLE THING FOR THE GIT GUD GENRE 😫 But fr incredible thumbnail Cbee!!!

[@davidnewhart2533]

I mean, Ninja Gaiden is more GIT GUD than Dark Souls.

[@ughitsbellarose]

never been much of a video essay girlie but rule number one: NEVER skip a Drew Sunn video. i know how long this took you and the hard work and effort and editing in here doesnt go unnoticed and truly i learn so much from you with every upload

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you I hope you enjoyed it even though this isn't the usual content you consume.

[@thetitanking9999]

my jaw actaully dropped when i saw you had 1k subs that shits fucked up free my boy drew get this man to a million

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you! Glad you're enjoying the CAHNTENT! One subscriber at a time, we'll get there!

[@Dasqal]

Screw you Drew! You really soured my mood by only having a thousand subs, someone push this bro into the algorithm and make him grossly incandescent!

[@DrewSunn]

Please algorithm 🤕 Throw me a bone... THANK YOU FOR WATCHING GLAD YOU ENJOYED!!!

[@chaicatte]

Drew is CRACKED with his amazing editing and pure genius in his topics!! Congrats on the 1k subs king ❤

[@DrewSunn]

THANK YOU! You're pretty genius yourself bucko 😎

[@oneeyegamr]

Found my new fav channel

[@DrewSunn]

Aw, thank you!

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

@@oneeyegamr fun fact, your new favorite channel also streams

[@drawingdumpling]

I missed drewssays !! So happy to have some quality content back again

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you!!!

[@micshazam842]

If you remove corpse runs from Dark Souls, it still retains it's essence so I don't even think corpse runs are important. It makes more sense to simply view soulslikes as a composite genre. No one thing defines it. It's a combination of things, several of which can be changed without it necessarily feeling like a different kind of thing. This is why people can never agree on a definition. There kind of can't be one. You can't draw a line and place everything decisively on either side.

[@DrewSunn]

I mean I think you certainly can draw a line and place everything on either side, we do that for the majority of genres. Composite genre is often (not always) how these things start, as in when we start to call a collection of genres its own genre, but as time goes they get separated and defined further, this is the "clone" stage, this is me pushing that next step where we leave that stage. I debated Remnant's inclusion for the exact thing you said, it doesn't have corpse run but has the same vibe as Dark Souls, but just because a game has the same vibe as Dark Souls doesn't mean it has to be a part of the Recursive genre, because without the inclusion of Corpse Run I could argue the original Metroid from 1986 is a "Soulslike," even if we brought the story outside of gameplay I could still argue it, even more-so for the Prime games. A game can be inspired by a different game without being in the same genre as that game. This is why I specifically chose optional obstacle respawns (obstacle so games that aren't action can be included) and corpse run as the two pillars. All that being said, I definitely see where you're coming from and understand, I'm just stinky and don't like it and want my goofy little Recursive games to be properly labeled so I know what I'm buying, and what I'm buying isn't getting compared to Dark Souls all the time simply because of its primary genre's name.

[@micshazam842]

@@DrewSunn I do think that some genres are a lot more fuzzy than others. Action adventures for example. So like Tomb Raider? Except a lot of them are not much like Tomb Raider at all. I tried making an "action-adventure" folder on my PS5 and gave up on sorting my games into it because too many games made me question what an action adventure even is. My Soulslike folder totally works though... even if there might be a couple controversial inclusions and exclusions haha Actually, I would like these "souls likes" to be a lot less like Dark Souls and a lot more their own thing. I play most of them, but I find myself gravitating towards the ones that deviate more from the games that kicked this whole thing off. So maybe a term that "sets them free" can be useful. Either way, it's a really good and thoughtful video.

[@DrewSunn]

Action-Adventure means nothing now-a-days it's ridiculous. I agree. Thank you so much for watching!

[@MA-go7ee]

You can remove corpse runs from a game and it can still be a souls like but they're absolutely important. The system is one of the strongest features of the genre. It's what gives these games a lot of their tension and raises the stakes during game play.

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

@@micshazam842 This is part of why I like the Recursive name, because it gives a feeling of "setting them free" as whenever I read "soulslike" I instantly think about it being compared to Dark Souls!

[@smokingbobs1344]

Hello new video essay channel. Curious to see what you'll do in the future! There's some good stuff here, and you clearly put a lot of heart into it. I will be following you :]

[@DrewSunn]

Thanks for watching! Hope you enjoy the future videos too! 👀

[@swordierre9341]

‘Recursive’ is a good term for describing the main system, but it excludes an equally important aspect to the souls-like identity (imo) which is the emphasis on dodge/deflect/parry. I’ll settle for something like “Recursive dodge-parry” or if “parry” feels too specific, and we want to be more general, maybe ‘Recursive dodge-counter’

[@DrewSunn]

You're not wrong. Maybe when they make a Sekiro 2 I'll think more on this and it'll be a video, we'll see.

[@vagelispitsikalis287]

just realised you only have 1000 subs,this is nice work,you deserve more recognition

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you! I agree 😔 One sub at a time. Glad you enjoyed the video!

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

@@vagelispitsikalis287 he does deserve it, especially on his streams too

[@avi_rivera]

Awesome stuff! I remember listening to that Escapist podcast episode and really liking that term, recursive.

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you! I need to watch more of Escapist's stuff, this is not at all the first time I've appreciated one of Yahtzee's takes, I'm sure if I went down their catalogue I'd find a lot more I vibe with.

[@potatoglizzy3212]

I am currently working on my first ever video essay (not on this account) and I’m basing it on my experience playing enotria I will not refer to it as a soulslike but a recursive arpg and link this video as an explanation so people don’t think I’m pretending to be clever ❤ thank you for the endless research that must have gone into this video.

[@DrewSunn]

THANK YOU! Excited to see the video when it's done! 👀

[@spatnaspolecnost]

Checkpoints huh? Novelty

[@DrewSunn]

Well it's what the checkpoint do beyond the standard. These checkpoints are different, quirky, not like the other checkpoints. Thank you for watching!

[@spatnaspolecnost]

@@DrewSunn I’m just messing around :p yeah it’s combination of things to go with that. One thing I remembered when you talked about bonfires was benches in dead space, I always thought they were safe until they were not :D

[@DrewSunn]

Perhaps it's time I replay Dead Space 🤔 I wonder if they're going to remake the second or third game. The third's co-op has so much potential if the game surrounding it was better. Maybe I should do a co-op video. 🤔 We'll see.

[@Monalemonly]

i hope this actually succeeds, i am saying souls-like a lot and would love to have a better name for the genre especially for new people to also be less afraid of it

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you for watching! We gotta band together to push it into the main stream, monkey together strong. 🐒

[@NasuPrime]

Soulslike is when game hard. Reddit said so

[@DrewSunn]

NUH UH!!! Hit KZbinr (and a listed source for this video (and the reason it's titled this way (and my new bestie 🙂 ))) Nasu said that a Soulslike is uh... **checks notes** abusive parenting???

[@bell5082]

I like it truthfully. I will do my best to do it!

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you truthfully! I'm glad you enjoyed the video!

[@Gundam5388]

This is video was super informative and entertaining, another great video, Drew. Also, you might be a massive nerd on the internet, but you're OUR massive nerd on the internet. 10/10.

[@DrewSunn]

LOL Thank you for watching!

[@Whyiseveryhandletaken6942]

“He’s right behind me, isn’t he.”

[@DrewSunn]

DON'T LOOK!!!!!11

[@chadyways8750]

okay but what about assassin's creed and uncovering the map, the only real difference is that Elden Ring does it semi-linearly actually and usually gates areas through their difficulty, which also became apart of later AC games with the RPG era

[@DrewSunn]

In Assassin's Creed you see the full size of the map right off the rip (mostly, sometimes there's multiple separate areas with their own maps). In Elden Ring the full size of the map is hidden until you journey outside of your charted territory, making you believe the experience is smaller than it is every step of the way. This is a topic for a different video down the line, can't tackle everything in one video, this one's goal was to present the Recursive genre and explain why I'm presenting it. Hope you enjoyed the video, thank you for watching!

[@triplecheeseburgerbod]

Id say dark souls is a 3rd person real time resource management strategy game set in a pseudo linear map

[@DrewSunn]

Dark Souls 3 has been a 4X game all this time.

[@MrNUKECOW]

Can't believe you don't have more subscribers. The amount of effort and polish this video has is insane, really enjoyed this :)

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed! One subscriber at a time.

[@undefinedvariable8085]

There are 3 fundamental design aspects of a soulslike broadly speaking; 1) combat mechanics, 2) environmental design, and 3) the levelling system. Crucial elements to the combat mechanics are high commitment actions, opportunity trade-offs (e.g. speed over power, attack or evade or defend, etc.), punishable/vulnerable (health) recoveries, and stamina management. - Stamina and hp management is a big part of this. - You don't need to get into weeds about technicalities like frames, priority, and input buffering, or gameplay concepts like "inertia action", hyper armour, or poise. These are all implementation details and side-effects or functions of other characteristics like build variety and how you balance and tune around these scopes. Characteristic level design features are hazardous environmental elements (i.e. traps, lots of booby traps) and ambushes, secrets and discovery, and some sort of sequential progression (usually linear) identified by checkpoint mechanics like bonfires, which also tend to reset the environment/world state. - This covers your "Recursive" genre, describes the "checkpoint" system. - The "map style" (i.e.: open-world, linear, interconnected, etc.) doesn't have to have anything to do with it, you just need to nail the environmental design. Key aspects of the levelling system should include some sort of currency, risk of losing that currency (typically on death after failing to retrieve it), and attributes or characteristics to improve (i.e. level up) which this currency gives you purchasing power to do. - This covers the "corpse-running" characteristic mentioned in this video but also, crucially, ties it into the dependent levelling system. - Again, you don't need to get into the weeds of how this levelling system is supposed to work, e.g.: levelling attributes, skill trees or upgrades. This is to say nothing of build varieties or multiplayer mechanics, like bloodstains, co-op and pvp. That doesn't need to be an essential part of a soulslike although I do think it completes it. Just get those fundamentals down, and you can iterate on the rest in interesting ways to leverage creativity and explore fresh ideas.

[@DrewSunn]

Although I don't agree with everything you said, very well worded and well thought out take, thank you for that... AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING I HOPE YOU ENJOYED THE VIDEO!!!

[@killscreen7519]

Every artist is stealing from every other artist. Tell me how you feel about AI😅 Also King's Field was a PSX (PS1 to the kids) launch game. How does Majora's Mask fit into Recursive gaming? When you return to the first day that can be considered death but it's also the checkpoint that saves and respawns enemies, even bosses and quests. You drop your stuff but not key items or masks just consumables.

[@DrewSunn]

AI is definitely a useful tool in a lot of fields, including art, but using it to completely replace humans rather than assist humans is just generally bad for all parties involved nine times out of ten. An AI that draws the tween frames for example would be revolutionary, and kind of semi-exists already. More than anything we just need laws and regulations for it, especially in-relation to theft, but the world-governments are much too slow to act on most issues, this one included. I know you were goofing but here's a serious answer! 😅 My "Best Year in Gaming" is about AI, and despite being based around 2023 is still super relevant, just labeled that video poorly tbh. Lessons learned. Did I fail to say that? My bad if I did. A flub I make very often is saying PS2 despite fully knowing that I meant PS1. Working on it. Have you ever played King's Field? I think Time Loop games are something else honestly, 'cause while there certainly is a recursive nature there, and I see what you mean, they're less about bashing your head repeatedly into a problem and instead about making the most of your limited time. I love Majora's Mask, and Outer Wilds even more-so, this is definitely a topic we will tackle at some point. I already have a different video in-mind for Outer Wilds though, but it won't be next. Thank you for watching!

[@killscreen7519]

I have not played King's Field and tbh never played a Soul's, ahem, Recursive 😅 game. Although I'm very interested in the genre there's something about how the difficulty of the genre has been built up by gamers as being almost Mythical, that has kept me feeling humbled from even making an attempt. Although I had Elden Ring in my Steam cart during the summer sale, I chickened out. I will definitely check out your AI video. Glad I found your channel and thanks for responding.

[@DrewSunn]

In Dark Souls death is just a mechanic to teach you how to succeed, the only way to truly fail is to quit. I'd recommend you give them a shot, however I'd recommend the original Dark Souls long before Elden Ring but that's controversial.

[@cbeedoodles]

bro hated all the AI generated thumbnails out there that he got me to make a BANGER unique thumbnail. Drew is always for original creators and knows that everything is inspired by something. 2 things can be true c:

[@DrewSunn]

This is true. There's another KZbinr who made a Dark Souls focused video but used AI to make the thumbnail. It was honestly a fantastic video and the views reflected that, millions... which means they're making enough ad revenue to pay an artist instead of using AI art to steal from them. I looked at their thumbnail as a challenge and decided to have Cbee here make me a thumbnail instead of a robot that copies other people's homework. Glad I did, I think the thumbnail is amazing and the views are reflecting that, not millions but more than usual for me and that's all I can truly hope for.

[@raduungureanu6543]

you will blow up dude i love your content

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you!!!

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

He also streams :)

[@DrewSunn]

I do I do

[@daanie1998]

This is such a fantastic video! Keep up the amazing work!

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you!

[@PiethagorasTearem]

I think exploration can define a soulslike. Exploration in soulslikes are very different from most adventure games. Its a specific kind of exploration.

[@whyudoit4009]

(Usually)its defined with main linear path, and the many branching paths that branch into others

[@DrewSunn]

It's a metroidvania's style of exploration, just mostly with keys and levers rather than a double jump. 🤷‍♂️ Either way already exists. Map design on the other hand, as I said, has potential but that's a video for a different day. THANKS FOR WATCHING!

[@PiethagorasTearem]

@@DrewSunn but arent Metroid and castlevania 2D games? You could argue ds1 is the game that brought it these aspects to 3D and thus defined the genre for 3D games.

[@DrewSunn]

Idk what the first 3D MetroidVania is but Metroid Prime was 3D and launched in 2002. 🤷‍♂️ It's also a pretty great game do recommend, good time to give it a shot too since Prime 4 is on the horizon.

[@gardian06_85]

also remember that Metroid-Vania was specifically coined by a salty Nintendo to be derisive at Castle-Vania imitating Metroid, and it became "you have locked doors, and need to get some missle shaped key to open" (on some level Nintendo didn't go far enough if the intention was to be derisive at Konomi and just said 'Konomi is starting to make Metroid-Like games'. Still better then what they started as "search Action Game" (I hate it)

[@darianlp]

Instead of inventing Inertia Action, how about keeping Action and just including Momentum Based? It's already an established genre, mainly for platformers, but I think it fits very well and gives the same type of feeling, which is every action has a momentum which must be followed through until interrupted by some other action. It's the same type of feeling you get when you play SM64 but with combat instead of platforming.

[@DrewSunn]

That is very interesting. Inertia action definitely needs more time to cook. Thank you for watching!

[@courier6640]

Damn, Hyde All Kojingles really got robbed of his game genre by Hide Your Tacos Michael Zaki 11 years before Hidudu Kijuju made one? That's professionally petty.

[@DrewSunn]

Eh, it happens a lot. Blah blah blah innovation you get it. Thank you for watching!

[@WarrenValion]

I feel like having the experience points that accrue simultaneously be the currency of the world which is then lost upon death is the soul of what makes a soulslike

[@DrewSunn]

Let me make sure I understand you. You think the currency and the XP being the same stat is a requirement? Is that what you're saying?

[@johncrondis4563]

Super refreshing video, I giggled a good amount and appreciate your presentation. Good breakdown too. I love seeing how different people interpret genres like Soulslike or Roguelite, and seeing what people get from games. For me the Action Priority is a mix of why I like the combat and why I don't like it. I want my singular button presses to be singular swings for the most part, and my movement to be me on the analog stick or pressing jump, dash. I like feeling like I am behind the movement. However, that goes both ways into wanting to correct my mistake mid press and cancel my moves, and to combo into more moves at will. I want the singular responses, but I also want to shift my responses even in the middle of an animation, except maybe for big giant weapons or the very center of a dodge roll where it may not make physical sense. I also like the level up system being very rewarding and significant. Each stat does something quite helpful to face the challenges, and every enemy makes way for that reward via souls/runes. I also like the build variety, to choose how to tackle challenges, and I think they can improve on this even more so, so that a player can switch builds easier. I guess the things I feel are soulslike, at least why I enjoy souls games: Action priority, I-frames for evade/defensive option, mutual openings (which are created by both parties having action priority, but also stamina, posture, stagger, flinch, recovery, etc.), high-damage+low-HP even for giant bosses, variety of gameplay choices (weapons, armor, stats, direction of exploration), rpg progression that is significant, death mechanic, and animations being just damn good (the weight, the motion, the sound effects, the positioning of the feet and torso and arms, etc.). These are all the things I like about the souls games that I feel other games don't always do. Other games have dodge, but no s, other games have level ups but they don't feel as impactful, other games have big bosses but they are spongey, other games may have many soulslike elements but then so little choice in build variety or exploration, other games just have bad clippy animations and things dont feels right, other games like Remnant 2 have no risk when dying... For me a soulslike, and a good one, hits all those boxes I mentioned, and hopefully will improve upon them as time goes on.

[@DrewSunn]

"However, that goes both ways into wanting to correct my mistake mid press and cancel my moves" Maybe this is why a lot of people prefer the bigger weapons, the slower attack definitely allows you to reposition a bit, at least with the Zweihander in DS1, that's the only one I remember being able to move where the heavy attacks land mid attack. Could be remembering wrong though it has admittedly been a few years. "For me a soulslike, and a good one, hits all those boxes I mentioned, and hopefully will improve upon them as time goes on." For me those aren't soulslike things specifically, that's any video game. Those are just good rules to run by. Like for example: Odds are if I'm playing a game on hard, which I usually am now-a-days, and a standard enemy takes 20 years to kill I'm gonna either stop playing or lower the difficulty. Games not hitting the things you list (assuming it has the features to even qualify (not every game needs a dodge roll for example (animal crossing with a dodge roll would be very funny though))) are issues I have for said game that deducts it points in my mind. Thank you for watching!!! I'm so glad you enjoyed the video!

[@johncrondis4563]

@@DrewSunn I agree that many things I mentioned are just good rules of thumb for any combat based game. It just feels like Fromsoftware did a number of them quite well when maybe other studios wouldn't hit as many of those boxes. I feel this is what, for me, gives me the feeling of a soulslike game, satisfying enough of these good design decisions (or decisions I happen to like). I also think it is why we see so many different titles being called soulslikes and why we get arguments online about what that means, because the things that make souls games "souls" games are not exclusive to them, they maybe just did a slick combination that other studios didn't in the past. Yes, I really like that the youtube algorithm knows me so well. Your comedy, tone, and reasoning were all very nice, keep up the great work!

[@DrewSunn]

I feel as though, and I'm not trying to say that you're wrong at all your opinion is your opinion, that this reply really makes me feel validated with my final "Recursive" take. "It just feels like Fromsoftware did a number of them quite well when maybe other studios wouldn't hit as many of those boxes. I feel this is what, for me, gives me the feeling of a soulslike game," I agree with this whole heartedly, and I think it's the exact reason why the genre needs to be, at the very least, renamed to be something else (even if that something else isn't Recursive). Because at the end of the day ignoring all the innovation or inspirations within Dark Souls and the following From games, they're just really fuckin' good ass games that feel really great to play and even beyond that it feels great to be a part of the community surrounding them. Comparing any game to Dark Souls immediately does that game a massive disservice. Even the popularly considered worst game of the franchise, Dark Souls 2, is A LOT to stack up against. So not only thank you for watching, not only thank you for voicing your opinion of both the genre and the video, but thank you for making me feel validated for making the video in the first place.

[@johncrondis4563]

@@DrewSunn Thanks for your replies man. Recursive is also such a dope sounding word imo, has an edge to it that sounds cool. And it kind of rings true. I am currently playing Remnant 2 with my buds and the lack of any consequence and the ability to re-roll an entire campaign without much risk feels so jarring when expecting a "soulslike" game. My friends and I quickly readjusted our outlook and don't really see it as a soulslike, and it most likely is because it lacks that Recursive nature a bit.

[@adeerworld]

I understand you want the genre tag to be more descriptive or exactly fit the features you define these games with. But, I feel you have gone too far beyond usefulness by making the tag both poorly encompassing what makes a lot of people enjoy these games and opening the tag to a whole new range of games not traditionally associated with the games in focus. I think you have just made a new unrelated tag instead. I think if you want to make a tag that helps players of these games to find related games they would like, I'm not sure this tag will help

[@DrewSunn]

I don't agree. It is a tag that is additive on-top of other genres that helps describe the systems present and in turn the experience you'd have. Precision platformer is a good example of this that we already use. I agree that it doesn't describe the entirety of Dark Souls but I don't think we need a singular genre to do that, a lot of the systems present in Dark Souls already exist prior and have genres tied to them, video games are art and art is derivative, the systems I propose in this video do not... Well they do individually, they're the terms I used in the video, but not a combined term when they're working together as they do in Dark Souls, AKA a genre.

[@adeerworld]

@DrewSunn i hear your argument that the checkpoints in the Fromsoft games are not generally derivative and therefore your focus when defining the genre tag. but consider defining these games by what you can not remove. For example i would argue that bonfires could be swapped for a generic videogame checkpoint in the souls trilogy and still be just as soulsly as ever. The same could be said for the "animation first" feature. consider instead how does that game reward the player? in most fromsoft games the player is in general given two base rewards; currency for character customization and non currency artifacts for character customization (souls and items in short). This is the bottom of the pyramid and is the system all players must interact with. With the currency and the artifacts players can access the next level of rewards. Progression and "play style options" (items and magic enabling the payer to create the character they wish). and lastly the top of the rewards pyramid not all player will access; "Emotional investment" (or "Emotional immersion" if you like), derived from the feeling of accomplishment from overcoming great difficulty, and the "deep lore" helping the world feel believable, further strengthening the illusion of the value of the players accomplishments (i mean, it is hard to take a world serious, that does not return the effort). currency & items -> progression & player customization -> emotional investment so what here in this rewards stepladder is different to most other games, i would say play customization? ??but, what makes this different than to Skyrim?? well i think it come down to all the features and options Fromsoft have developed for the player to choose from and interact with. for example Skyrim has a lot of weapons, but FromSofts game's many weapons feels immensely varied to use. I think it is this type of comparison that can be done for nearly all customization features of most other similar games where Soulsly games mainly offers more. so to summarize; i would argue that if we needed a new genre tag it should describe the very high player freedom to customize the play experience, as i think its the only thing that cant be removed, while still having the game feels soulsly.

[@DrewSunn]

That's an RPG. See this is where the problem comes in when you boil it down like that. People THINK this game is different from others and needs to be categorized separate from them, so we have to look at it as "Okay so why is this different"? Currency & items are just in every video game, can't categorize capitalism that's already Tycoons Progression & player customization are just what "RPG" means, be that simple like a skill tree or more complex like, as you said, Skyrim Emotional investment is story and music, which isn't gameplay so can't define the genre. So when you remove all of those things, what's left? What's in the gameplay that's different and new and is the reason people think this needs to be a different genre? Difficulty Action Action already exists, so maybe it's a different type of action = Inertia-Action Difficulty is subjective and has been a thing in games since Pong, maybe it's something to do with how the game balances difficulty = Dropped currency/xp to make failure hurt less & enemies don't respawn unless you want them to = Recursive I definitely see where you're coming from, but I do think the Recursive nature of Dark Souls does change the game significantly, it can very suddenly change the gameplay loop from "I wanna progress" to "I NEED MAH MONEY"

[@adeerworld]

​@@DrewSunnthen let's put it like this; what would be more of a souls game: 1) Skyrim with a soulsly run back mechanic 2)Skyrim with the deep character customization and weapons/magic system like souls games

[@DrewSunn]

The first one. The second is an RPG, which Skyrim already is, the only difference is the Inertia-Action stuff which I addressed but Recursive is what I'm trying to push 'cause Inertia needs more cookin'.

[@Flitter9]

Ah, yes. Another spectacular specimen from the genre of KZbin channels "White Guy in Front of Green Screen Talks about Video Games", or WGFGSTVG. Subbed.

[@DrewSunn]

LOL ah I see we watch similar people! Thank you for watching, I'm glad you enjoyed.

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

FINALLY some good fucking food. My long awaited gay soulslike/recursive video is here. Jokes aside though, you make fantastic points. Games were definitely called soulslike just because it reminded people of Dark Souls, but with it ever growing, Recursive would be a better name for the genre. That would allow for more games to fit in the genre when they can while at the same time, removing games from the tag that really /don't/ need to be there. Also Recursive sounds like a better name for it too because "soulslike" is just meaning "like dark souls" which just makes someone think so Soulsborne games, and can lead to disappointment if they stray too far, or make people wonder how it's a "soulslike". So honestly, yea this push for Recursive as a name will be better, and I know you've been calling it that for a while. We can finally, drop the term "soulslike" and call them for what they are, slamming your face against the wall, Recursive. Now to slam other people into the wall, and it'll dawn on them.

[@DrewSunn]

Comparison is the death of joy.

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

@@DrewSunn It is! It is! Which is why Recursive will be better, it frees them from the never ending comparison!

[@PanaTheKid]

Its really not that hard a SOULSLIKE is a game where you have Checkpoints where you spawn back at every time you die, where you loose your in game currency after diying and only have one chance to get it back, with a high difficult and standard animations for the combat, BLACK MYTH WUKONG IS NOT A SOULSLIKE, lies of p is

[@DrewSunn]

That is pretty much what I said yes. I haven't played Wukong so I can't speak on that though. Thank you for watching!

[@BlackJar72]

RPG means your engaged in cooperative emergent storytelling with your friends, most often with dice around a table top -- unless its a videogame, in which case its either a hollow marketing label if you're a corporation, or something that reminds you another game you called an RPG if you're the player. Not much besides leveling and quests ties Bethesda and Larian games into a genera, and that disappears as soon as you add table-top and include Gurps or Call of Cthulu. "Soulslike" is much easier to define -- its basically a concrete list of common mechanics; yes, I'd call the bonfire the most central.

[@DrewSunn]

I love D&D and Pathfinder, I'm a bug role playing nerd. 🙂 You are totally right, it's become an empty marketing term that just means there is a skill tree in some way and that's kinda dumb. Thank you for watching!

[@Dimitar_Tsanev]

I think that what defines a soulslike isn't any element that you can name. It's more of the feeling while playing. And by 'feeling' I meen the physical/tactile feeling in the hands. To me that's entirely based on the control scheme (which is absolutely essential, I can't call any game where you attack with the face buttons a soulslike) and the way that the animations are calibrated. The weight of movement and the visuals of hits connecting (and maybe estus flask derivatives but that's debatable). Fromsoft and very few others have managed to create a type of game that feels absolutely unique even when compared to other games within the same genre. I think everything else like the checkpoints, RPG elements, difficulty, exploration, level design and atmosphere is available in many other genres.

[@DrewSunn]

This is kind of what I was aiming for with "Inertia-Action," but as I said in the video I think it needs more time to cook. I couldn't fully focus on it without pushing Recursive to the side, it would've made this video twice as long and it was already supposed to be released months before it did so I just couldn't validate that. In the future I will make an Inertia-Action video, it might not be called that by then but it will be about it all the same, and maybe then I'll tackle what you feel is missing in this video. I definitely don't disagree with you though, I dislike most non-from Recursive games because they lack the 'feeling' that From's games present.

[@Dimitar_Tsanev]

@@DrewSunn Oh, I definitely don't feel like anything was missing. If anything the video was way more in-depth than I expected and I learned new things so it's cool. I don't mind another one though :D

[@DrewSunn]

@Dimitar_Tsanev Aw, cool then! Thank you! Glad you enjoyed!

[@0phreak]

gotta say man, solid af first steam purchase

[@DrewSunn]

Anor Londo ran at like 10 fps LOL THANK YOU FOR WATCHING!!!

[@Martin_McFryy]

Bro. This Video has to be seen by the world of gaming. These 2 genres, could put everything in place, in this giant pile of soulslike and soulslite games. You could also call the "innertia" genre "fatal" because the action you take can not be undone, unless stopped by an outside force In that sense, dark souls could be defined a "Fatal recursive action adventure" Monster hunter: Fatal action adventure Hollow knight: Fatal recursive metroidvania and so on and so forth

[@DrewSunn]

That's not a horrible idea. I'll put more thought into it whenever I make the inertia-action video, like I said that part of this video needs more time to cook. Prolly won't be next though. Thank you for watching!

[@dondante23]

I just inertia-action'd the subscribe button. Great video! - Love, First Time Viewer

[@DrewSunn]

THANK YOU! Glad you enjoyed the video!

[@WarrenValion]

14:39 Where is this from? I need to find this.

[@DrewSunn]

The 2006 Spike TV game Awards. Real footage of the Game Awards that later turned into The Game Awards hosted by Geoff Keighley, he wasn't on the planning team until like 2009 or something though.

[@danieladamczyk4024]

There is thrird "genre" souls "birthed". Character making game. Paths to win in souls are two. Skill good or prep good. First focus on dexterity of the player Second on knowledge and cunning of the player. Both ways are valid but "git gud" hate when others use prep good to play. So Dark souls is real time tactical rpg. Like neverwinter nights.

[@DrewSunn]

Well that kind of already exists, that's what an RPG is. Overused term now-a-days for sure, but that's what the term means in video games. Skill trees, stat levels and such. Dark Souls is also an RPG.

[@icyice1902]

I forgot the name of the song that plays at 16:33.

[@DrewSunn]

"One Who Craves Souls" from Demon's Souls

[@angie69p]

7:38 hehe but hole 👉

[@DrewSunn]

🍑

[@12DAMDO]

the best way to define Soulslike in my opinion is by treating Dark Souls as a Metroidvania rather than as an RPG.. not only will it make you better at the game, by finally understanding its design, but you will also finally understand its design.. after that, just look at every element that every Soulsborne has in common: bonfires/lanterns/graces/etc, souls/echoes/ruins/etc, Metroidvania exploration design, ""hard""" bosses with patterns and/or puzzlelike ways to figure out how to do the bosses, stats.. that to me defines a Soulslike.. i cannot define a gameplay genre by aesthetic (Wikipedia be like "Soulslike is when game has dark aesthetic" like, no there's already a word for that: grimm or gothcore or whatever, and i feel like you can easily make a Soulslike that isn't grimm or goth) and i most certainly CANNOT and WILL NOT define a genre by a variable as subjective as difficulty.. Skill Issue is not a genre.. game journalists also don't help, because they invented the phrase "this game is the Dark Souls of [insert genre here]" which some people who never played Dark Souls somehow interpreted as the definition of Soulslike (i seen a game on Steam that was literally just a standard platformer.. Steam tags are not a reliable source to identify a genre) I Wanna Be The Guy (the "Dark Souls of Platformers") is in no way a Soulslike.. it's more a Precision Platformer with Troll Levels.. and Cuphead is more of an Action Platformer.. when we ignore every subjective and/or superficial/artificial variable, and when we finally agree that Dark Souls is a Metroidvania, only then can we define the genre, by identifying what makes the game stand out from its genre.. my final note to indie developers is to not classify the genre of your game until after your game is done.. that way you don't have to complain about "fences" and "gatekeeping", because genres are nothing more than labels that describe your game, rather than a checkbox.. if you desperately wanted to make a game within a genre, and it ended up not being anything like that genre: don't be mad at people saying it's not a part of the genre, take pride in the fact that you invented something new.. VaporFunk is a term coined AFTER Saint Pepsi released Hit Vibes, not a goal he was striving towards.. be like VaporFunk!

[@DrewSunn]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, which is what led me to the Recursive genre that I pitch in this video. It highlights the unique features that Dark Souls (and From's others) founded while still allowing other genres to shine brighter than it. It's one feature in a mixing pot others that makes up fun experience. That was a good read dawg, thanks for that. And THANK YOU FOR WATCHING!

[@12DAMDO]

btw i disagree with "Roguelike *_JUST_* means perma-death", because literally the one thing the original Rogue was known for was its use of RNG.. and yes, most games these days have RNG, but it's still an important factor.. even then, if perma-death and RNG are its only variables then Nokia Snake is the best Roguelike (a phrase everyone will disagree with, because it's not a Roguelike), so rather than just RNG, we have to also look at _how_ RNG was implemented: the answer is dungeon generation (so, Minecraft Hardcore Mode is the best Roguelike? no, that doesn't sound right either.. see, it's really complicated to define a whole genre.. online discussions like these are important, if genre is a thing you care about.. most "normal" devs do not care about genre tho.. they care about which gameplay mechanics they like..) to make a long story short: genres are for consoomers

[@DrewSunn]

I agree with that, good on you for calling me on my bullshit LOL I would say procedural generation rather than RNG purely 'cause RNG implies different things, both technically correct just a semantics thing, and I would say that hardcore minecraft would transform that game into a roguelike, same for Nuzlocke Pokemon (but obvi that has more rules on the top) but that's not the game the developers made that's a fan-made challenge. Genres are for the consumers yis yis yis marketing marketing blah blah blah

[@Nekrxsis]

You earned a sub off this one. This guy is going places!

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you!!! I hope you enjoy my future stuff too!

[@derpander2133]

DS2 is not that bad. It's just the least loved in the dark souls trilogy and is stil a good ,worth playing game. If you love dark souls 1 and 3 there is no way that DS 2 is not woth playing. Aside of Lies of P and hollow knight I think DS 2 is still a better soulslike that any non Fromsoftware soulslike gamae (imo). Good video though

[@DrewSunn]

nah it stinks lol (i respect your opinion even though i disagree) THANK YOU FOR WATCHING I'M GLAD YOU ENJOYED!!!

[@lumendrake2265]

Good video, but Dark Souls 2 is far from unfair... Its encounter design is actually extremely well thought out. You just need to learn how to approach it

[@DrewSunn]

uh huh uh huh copium uh huh uh huh (joke)

[@andyb.4698]

Really good video Essay, i subbed

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed!

[@tylercafe1260]

Dark Souls is an Action-RPG and that origin stems from Castlevania. As it was platformer that added RPG elements as the series progressed such as spells, elements, summons, damage types, attack animation difference, stat augmentation, level ups, and hidden items/bosses. How does one define an "Action-RPG" and what does "RPG" mean in that context? Customization of your character and how you play the game in a dynamic setting. RPGs by their very nature are all about you controlling your character's identity and growth. 'Action" is about dynamic differences that can happen within gameplay. Devil May Cry has a Level Up system in 3 but it's not an RPG. That's due to the very linear nature of Dantes progression. It's very much on a set path. You get the Fist weapons when the game says so. You'll be forced to use it to progress in order to get past the combo statue blocking the critical path. Notice RPGs more than often offer multiple paths to the same area or give freedom to leave the environments at any time. You're truly in the world and experience basically every interaction the characters have gone through. Which is why games like Kingdom Hearts and the relationship with the Ansem Reports is so greatly misunderstood because the "RPG element" was that you the player are supposed to parce the mystery and contradictions within the text. KH1 had so much to offer in player involvement you can deduce Ansem had a Keyblade himself before he opened the door in Hollow Bastion. "All doors need a key. Much like the door I have opened". A sense of mystery and sleuthing to understand the questions you have. In other words it's how much story engagement you as the player also experience as you play the game. Having to start out with just a Toy Sword was just enough to help convey how much he is growing in the story which you the player are experiencing. Some games like Devil May Cry have a story but many of it's design choices were just for gameplay most of the time especially when you look at the mobs and bosses. The story was neat but the player didn't really have a "mystery". There was no secret boss or secret report. You just had the game surprise you rather than you surprise yourself. Like playing FF8 for the first time and booting up the student desks all your own to have a lot of hidden information be more at the forefront of your mind. I'd argue that RPGs are actually just "Fantasy-Mystery". It's all about you exploring this imaginative world and tinkering with its pieces and thinking about the story and themes as the game progresses. "Inertia Action" can be traced to Kingdom Hearts 1. One of the first major "3D" Action-RPGs. There's many interviews talking about how they made delay inputs intentional and have attack animations be so committal. I can go on and on how games like Devil May Cry, Kingdom Hearts, and Monster influence each other. Matter of fact the first game Dark Souls compared itself to was Monster Hunter. A very grounded action-rpg where you had to choose your decisions wisely. Which came out two years after Kingdom Hearts defined the Action-RPG genre and 3D action games for years and years to come. To give a comparison Devil May Cry was still only a fixed camera angle game until DMC4. But that's only because DMC4 copied a lot of KH2 design philosophy especially with its Map. A more "Classic Map" would be Final Fantasy or Elden Ring.

[@DrewSunn]

Seems like you need to make your own video essay LOL I'm not a Kingdom Hearts fan, I'm not gonna get into it beyond just saying: games beyond KH2 too many too much. That's probably why I didn't bring it up, I am however a Monster Hunter fan. Like I said at the end of the video I very much think the Inertia-Action part of this video needs a lot longer to cook, I really wanted this video to focus on "Recursive" so that I could push that, to some degree, into the main stream. If I were to fully dive into Inertia-Action this video would've been double the length and take double the work and it was already supposed to be released MONTHS before it was so there was just no way to validate the extra time sink, instead we will save that conversation for a different video down the line. Thank you so much for watching, I hope you enjoyed it!

[@neyouno]

Much like that dashing moustache this video is quite grand. I commend the depths you went through in your research here and it has certainly paid off. Aside from a few cringe jokes the video is basically a perfect essay/research paper on this topic. I do completely agree that naming the genre recursive as it seems to be the main thing that ties all of the games seems more than apt and is a place where Fromsoftware truly innovated on the systems of corpse running and checkpoints as well as their unique take on healing and multiplayer. While all of these things existed before the way they were introduced here and innovated upon is truly the core of what made dark souls a unique genre, while probably not being the thing that made the game itself as great as it is which is why a lot of devs try to copy a lot more from fromsoftware and than just this recursive world design (Would you call it a part of world design or something else here?). However i don't think "inertia action" is something i would label as a unique genre they created. Input queuing has existed before Fromsoftware as has stamina management and there wasn't a real innovation on their part in this specific thing, while this could be coined as a genre much like turn based action or real time action is i don't think it's necessary in describing the game so it feels like a less valuable thing especially as it would require another term for a game where animation cancelling exists rather than input queuing. Either way i think you completely hit the nail on the head with this one and it definitely helps in understanding why certain games are labelled as souls-likes when i don't see it at all. As for your question (don't feel like making another comment) My favourite soulslike (and one i would argue is the best in the genre) is Nioh 2, the main reason why is the fact it has the deepest and most complex combat system out of anything i've really played in the genre or around it, while also having a ton of build variety, amazing enemies that could be bosses in lesser titles (im looking at you Ds3) a great set of bosses themselves and overall the game is just a complete package, the only place where it lacks (but i personally don't care for it much) is the fact it's linear and mission based rather than an open world structure. A close second would be Remnant 2 and mainly because it's so fucking cool, that's just about it for that one, i got guns they sound and feel good to use and i get to shoot cool creatures in amazing looking areas that are randomly generated (funnily enough i did hear an interesting argument that a thing that makes a soulslike is the groundedness of the world and how it connects back to gameplay and storytelling and that was the argument as to why remnant 2 isn't one due to it's randomly generated world). Either way this was a great video and i've done the good ol sub and ringed the bell cause i am eagerly awaiting new stuff from ya Mr. Drew!

[@DrewSunn]

BOY DO I AGREE ON THE CRINGE JOKES LOL they can't all hit! I tried to cut a couple of them but they were too integral. Load-bearing goofs. 😅 Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed the video and thank you for the sub! I hope you enjoy my future stuff just as much. I agree that Inertia Action isn't enough to declare a new thing, like I said at the end I very much feel like that idea needs longer to cook, it's a good seed but I couldn't make it flourish without pushing Recursive to the side which was the primary goal, and I didn't want to make this an hour long video. Down the line I plan to return to it and flesh it out into something more that hopefully doesn't clash with games that focus on input buffer and queuing like primarily fighting games. We'll see, I haven't done my research into it yet, prolly won't be the next video. I could never get into Nioh or it's sequel, but maybe I'll give it another try down the line. As for Remnant 2 I actually just finished playing that a few weeks ago! Still haven't done the DLCs but I thought it was great! Good takes homie, and good comment, KZbin needs more people like you keep it up!

[@neyouno]

@@DrewSunn Thank you so much for the kind reply! That also sounds like an incredible idea and i would love to see your take on that concept as well. And please keep all of the cringe jokes they add a lot of flavour

[@zBegg]

The problem is that it doesnt have any problems for me.

[@DrewSunn]

Well I hope you enjoyed the video anyways! 😅

[@nonuvya]

Commenting for the dancing Michael

[@DrewSunn]

'Tis the season~

[@noahdavidson1343]

I disagree that corpse running is fundemental to the souls experience. Honestly I think sekiro is closer to dark souls than Elden Ring is in terms of the gameplay loop, because the open world changes the dynamic so much in Elden Ring. If we look at hollow knight, which you called recursive metroidvania. What really changes if you don't lose your souls? Nothing in my opinion. It's just a mechanic to encourage you to keep trying instead of closing the game and adds tension to the gameplay as you get back to the souls. The souls are just a currency and don't really matter. Elden Ring was so easy to run past enemies in that I almost never lost any souls. Corpse running kind of disappeared as a tangible part of the game in my opinion. I think bonfire games is a suitable substitute to souls like. Having checkpoints that respawn enemies is basically the fundemental innovation of dark souls. It makes the state of the world in the control of the player amrather than something like resident evil where sometimes new enemies are around but often the areas stay cleared. This is the mechanic that most I pacts the gameplay loop and what it basically means to play a souls game. It does exclude similar games like demons souls and sifu though.

[@DrewSunn]

I don't know dawg, I lost over 10,000 Geo once and it HURT. "It's just a mechanic to encourage you to keep trying instead of closing the game and adds tension to the gameplay as you get back to the souls." This exact thing is what CHANGES the gameplay loop surrounding your dropped currency/XP. If you're a good gamer, meaning you beat everything in one go or just run past everything, then yeah sure it's not that impactful of a gameplay element, but that's why difficulty is a side effect.

[@Infinitelightspeed]

Good Video

[@DrewSunn]

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@TheArcticFloof]

how dare you steal this content and do it better

[@DrewSunn]

I'm ready for prison time.

[@Lordementor96]

I LOVE RECURSIVE GAMES

[@DrewSunn]

ME TOO I DO TOO THANK YOU FOR WATCHING

[@clearlyazul]

Drew be looking like a Charles but my name is Austin. I dont always understand these games tbh :/

[@DrewSunn]

I feel like that was the beginning of a rap. Got a rhythm to it. Drew be looking like a Charles but my name is Austin Gah dayum. Anyways. What don't you understand? Just not for you? What's up?

[@VaasMontenegro12]

I have a big problem with this video, and it's that you didn't really solve the problem of defining the Soulslike genre, you just picked some (admittedly highly important) elements of souls games and made up a new genre around that. That's why you HAD to rename it. The problem is people don't want to create and rename a new genre, they want Soulslike to be properly defined. You could create a game with a bunch of the elements of the games made by FromSoft in the last decade and a half but none of the recursive ones and people would call it a Soulslike, and if it's a good game, they would recommend it to their friends as a good Soulslike. For example imagine a game with a dark fantasy setting, third person action-adventure. Asynchronous multiplayer, stamina, magic, dodging blocking parrying and riposting. Environmental storytelling, an interconnected linear open world, a level up system with different attributes, lots of different equipment that you can upgrade through different paths. And also backstabs. But it has the save and reload after death system of Skyrim, as well as the XP and currency system of Skyrim (XP and currency being separated and both going into your inventory and not being lost upon death to be retrieved) Would gamers that like Soulslike games call this hypothetical game a Soulslike? And if they enjoyed it, would they recommend it to their friends as a good Soulslike to try out? If the answer is yes then you have failed to define Soulslike. And it's kind of not possible because Soulslike is a genre made up of a ton of different mechanics at the same time. The best definition I can come up with would be "It has at least 3 of the elements that were popularized by Demon's Souls or Dark Souls." So a dark fantasy first-person shooter with a level up system with different attributes and asynchronous multiplayer would count as a Soulslike. Perhaps 3 is too low a number, maybe 5 or 6 is better. And anything less than that has just taken some inspiration but isn't a true Soulslike. We can argue about what the number should be, but I think that's how we have to define the genre.

[@DrewSunn]

Fixing Soulslike includes renaming it, it isn't a new genre it's a replacement which has happened many times in the gaming industry before and can happen again if we band together, ape together strong. I don't agree that people wouldn't conform because they 'want soulslike to be defined,' to be honest I think 90% of gamers wouldn't care. I definitely get where you're coming from though, but I disagree that this video didn't solve the problem simply because I offered a different name to call it, even if we were still calling it "Soulslike" I still think the traits that I tied to Recursive should be the traits that are required of these video games to be included.

[@VaasMontenegro12]

@@DrewSunn I mean you can think whatever you want, but I'm pretty sure that if you showed a game to someone that had 90% of the mechanics found in FromSoft's recent titles except the recursive ones, they would think it's a Soulslike. That's why if you define it only around the recursive mechanics you have to rename it too, otherwise it creates confusion.

[@DrewSunn]

It's possible for a game to have the vibes of, or even be inspired by, another game while not being the same genre. Having watched all the videos I did to prep for this a lot of people ignore the mechanics and just see a dark fantasy game and immediately jump to Dark Souls. I don't think we need to combine other parts of what Dark Souls is and rename to make another genre, I think those being separate are fine and are already defined individually. It's not that Dark Souls is Recursive and NOT the other stuff, it's that it's Recursive AND the other stuff. It's additive and an adjective. Hollow Knight is a good example of this 'cause it's so different from Dark Souls and yet is often called a "Soulslike," it's primarily a 2D MetroidVania, it shares very little traits with any other genre, BUT IT'S ALSO a Recursive game due to the respawn mechanic and the corpse-run. It's possible for a Recursive game to not even have enemies but instead just be a platformer, this is why I said "Obstacle" instead of "Enemy," but as I said in the video difficulty is a side effect of this genre so it would probably be a "Precision Platformer" but that's beside the point and I'm rambling. I definitely see where you're coming from and appreciate your critical response, this is what is needed to iron out the details of what the genre becomes and if this video pops off a lot more people will be doing the same elsewhere. Complete side note: I hope that you enjoyed the video despite disagreeing with some of it, your enjoyment is much more important to me than the points I make. Thank you for watching!

[@VaasMontenegro12]

@@DrewSunn I did enjoy the video, it was quite well made, funny and informative. But I still disagree. I guess the way I see it, it's more like you are championing a change in the way we talk about this subject and how we define it, rather than how it's actually being talked about currently, because as I said, you could make a new game that looks and plays and feels 95% like Dark Souls or Bloodborne or Elden Ring, but not have the recursive mechanics and people when they try it, it would feel like a Soulslike to them, and that's what they would consider it to be. And vice-versa I think that if you made a game that had only the bonfire-like checkpoint system and the corpse-run mechanic, but bared no other resemblance to other Soulslikes, there is a chance people wouldn't consider it a Soulslike, but merely a game that borrowed a couple mechanics inspired from the Souls series.

[@DrewSunn]

I think what decides the latter half of what you said is if this term, Recursive, hits the main stream or not. Looking outward at the general gaming populace which isn't the bulk of the people watching this video (most of us are probably more in-tune with the gaming industry, the news, and the movements of it since you're all consuming a video about "Soulslikes" rather than booting up NBA 2K2x and turning your brain off) most people, when they think of Dark Souls, just think of it as a hard game. They think of the difficulty before anything else nine times out of ten, and it most likely is the reason they're avoiding the game. The problem is that we can't define a game based on it's difficulty because that's subjective, different people have different skills. Even if a game is designed with the intention to be fair but challenging, like what was Miyazaki's goal, it might not be that way for certain players. Even ignore that, like yeah you're right a lot of people talk about other things rather than the checkpoint system and consider a lot of different things to be more defining than it, but all of those things already exist elsewhere and weren't innovated on to create Dark Souls, but the checkpoint system was. Inertia-Action is the other thing but like I said needs more cookin' to be good lookin'. All this being said the two things most people mentioned in their videos and articles were the checkpoints, including Miyazaki's love for them, and the difficulty which I addressed. I think we're at a point where we're both right to certain degrees, depends on who we're talking about and on what the future holds.

[@zarreyex]

Dark Souls 2 is good 😤

[@DrewSunn]

I'm so sorry (that you had to play that game). 🙂

[@filmkid8221]

Yo I’m the 1k view

[@DrewSunn]

NICE Thank you for watching! Hope you enjoyed it!

[@socialkidmusic]

Why did we need this video, a souls like is a game like dark souls. Done.

[@DrewSunn]

I say very specifically why that is not the solution in the video. 🤷‍♂️ Feels like to me you commented before watching but hey you do you dawg.

[@socialkidmusic]

@@DrewSunn You have a good video, but its not for me, I dont like long winded stuff. I also dont like it when 2D metroid vanias are called dark souls. Its fine, I'm just not your target demo, Ill give you a like for alogrithm, then I'm off.

[@DrewSunn]

Okay that's fair thank you for the like, hope you find some videos that are more for you!

[@n1lknarf]

There's many innovations you attributed to fromsoft and demons souls that existed many years before in other games. For example, the corpse run is from Diablo: you would lose your gold, but also your entire inventory; you'd be completely naked without weapons having to retrieve your corpse. You struggle to make sense of things because you don't research, you just sit down and think in a vacuum. Fromsoft and Miyazaki only steal from others, they are incapable of producing original gameplay. Nioh released with its own unique combat system, based on weapon stances. Wolong released with its own unique combat system, based on "tug of war" mechanic. Rise of ronin is a mix of both. Almost every game made by other studios is more innovative than fromsoft's ninja gaiden clones. Fromsoft released the last armored core using dark souls gameplay, and elden ring using dark souls gameplay, and sekiro using dark souls gameplay, and bloodborne using dark souls gameplay, and dark souls using clunky ninja gaiden gameplay. Hopefully one day people will realize fromsoft and miyazaki are just modders. /// Soulslikes are Realtime-Turnbased Pilgrimages. Konami created the genre with Castlevania; Team Ninja revolutionized the genre with the Ninja Gaiden trilogy; fromsoft then created the clones. Windups and cooldowns 🤦 Startups and Recoveries. RPG players trying to define fight games' mechanics is the reason why we have the name "soulslike" instead of Realtime-Turnbased. The problem is soulslikes are arena fight games with stat progression where you can walk around, but the rpg players don't play fight games, and fighting players don't play rpgs: rpg players will find them difficult so they'll grind stats to balance their skill issue, while fighting players will breeze thru the game because pressing 1 input to react to a fixed combo is way simpler than figuring out which input to press based on the current action. This genre is an abomination no one really enjoys: people only enjoy finishing them so they can move on. It's like smoking: people think it's cool to smoke but what they enjoy is releasing the toxins after inhaling them. /// The genre RPG is also wrong because you cannot truly role play if the roles are predefined: to role play every choice has to be viable; enforcing a choice removes the capacity to role play. Fromsoft doesn't make rpgs, diablo is not an rpg, wow is not an rpg; almost all rpgs are simply adventure games with stats as a form of progression, not customization. The difference between progression and customization is in whether all players end up with the same stats or if all players have a unique character. There's always limitations, but in the so called rpgs everyone has the same stats for health and stamina, and the same stats for the same types of builds: this is the opposite of role playing; all builds play the same regardless of player choice. The roles are not predefined in a True-RPG. In a True-RPG players would be whoever they want, however they want, and the game would account for all possible choices to allow progression rather than enforce progression. Current RPG genre should be called "Grinders", and you know I'm right.

[@DrewSunn]

I appreciate your input, but let's keep the conversation respectful. There is a right and wrong way to criticise, this was the wrong way. You are treating me, through my video, as though I am uneducated. This entire comment was filled with disrespect towards me, other gamers in this comment section and even the developers of the games. This is not okay behaviour and doesn't help anyone, all it does is make you look bad. Especially this line: "You struggle to make sense of things because you don't research, you just sit down and think in a vacuum. Fromsoft and Miyazaki only steal from others, they are incapable of producing original gameplay." Again, none of it is straight-up mean like other commenters often are, the ones who give us all a bad reputation, just incredibly disrespectful. You don't know me, you don't know my history, you don't even know the types of games I play. Even more than that, I doubt you looked into the primary sources I used to research this topic and build this video. I'm going to ignore this behaviour for the rest of this reply because, despite being insulted by you, it's clear that you are very passionate about this subject and I appreciate that immensely, so rather than come back at you with aggression I'm going to attempt to be constructive. If you reply with aggression again though: Our conversation ends. I apologise for upsetting you with my video, but I hope you found some enjoyment in it at the end of the day. I'm going to tackle this systematically and reply to each thing individually rather than all the things all at once, so this message appears a lot longer than it is simply because it's written like an interview. - "There's many innovations you attributed to fromsoft and demons souls that existed many years before in other games. For example, the corpse run is from Diablo: you would lose your gold, but also your entire inventory; you'd be completely naked without weapons having to retrieve your corpse." Invention and innovation are different things. I never meant to imply that FromSoft invented Corpse-Running, in fact, I even mentioned other games that did it before, and because of this it doesn't matter who did it first, it instead matters how it's featured in the game I'm speaking on. FromSoftware innovated on the concept of Corpse-Running by tying it to the bonfire system, or as I wrote in the video "Optional Obstacle Respawns." Even beyond that we're talking about the formation of a genre, before this video the "Soulslike" and after the "Recursive" game, not how Corpse Run has grown and changed with the years, so how it's changed in the game doesn't really matter but instead it matters how it's copied and used in other developer's games. I even gave an example of this exact thing in the video with Kojima's Death Stranding and the "Strand" genre. One concept is a feature, many combined is a genre, and now-a-days many genres are a game (a game can be one genre (ex. space invaders is just action (debatably horror too but that's for a different video)) but that just isn't done much now-a-days, everything is either composite or a stew. to dive deeper into this would require a novel and Pat Holleman already has that covered). - "Nioh released with its own unique combat system, based on weapon stances. Wolong released with its own unique combat system, based on "tug of war" mechanic. Rise of ronin is a mix of both. Almost every game made by other studios is more innovative than fromsoft's ninja gaiden clones." Could argue that Nioh took that from For Honor. Could argue For Honor took that from Jedi Academy. The list goes all the way back to historical stances that monkey used when holding stick. Art is derivative everything comes from something, Nioh's mechanics don't undermine Dark Souls'. Comparison is the thief of joy. - "Fromsoft released the last armored core using dark souls gameplay, and elden ring using dark souls gameplay, and sekiro using dark souls gameplay, and bloodborne using dark souls gameplay, and dark souls using clunky ninja gaiden gameplay." Armored Core 6 plays nothing like Dark Souls beyond having a dodge and even that is very different from Dark Souls. Elden Ring innovated on the mechanics present in all of From's games post-Demon's, so you're right there. Sekiro plays nothing like Dark Souls beyond having similar vibes and any Soulsborne fan that played it on release would tell you that 'cause we all had to re-learn how to play video games to play it. Excluding Dark Souls 2 which was a different team, Bloodborne was their third game so yes it uses a lot of the same architecture but it also innovates on it to feature a much more fast-paced style. I would not say Dark Souls is using Ninja Gaiden gameplay but I can definitely see where you're coming from, but honestly it doesn't matter. I state again that comparison is the thief of joy and innovation is vastly different from invention. You seem to be stuck on this, the need for things to be completely new, most things aren't. - "Hopefully one day people will realize fromsoft and miyazaki are just modders." That is every single video game. They create/use an engine and then "mod" it to fit their needs. Modding is game development. - "Windups and cooldowns 🤦 Startups and Recoveries. RPG players trying to define fight games' mechanics is the reason why we have the name "soulslike" instead of Realtime-Turnbased. The problem is soulslikes are arena fight games with stat progression where you can walk around, but the rpg players don't play fight games, and fighting players don't play rpgs: rpg players will find them difficult so they'll grind stats to balance their skill issue, while fighting players will breeze thru the game because pressing 1 input to react to a fixed combo is way simpler than figuring out which input to press based on the current action." This video's target audience is primarily video game players, "Soulslike" players, not video game makers, so I simplify terms to make them easy to understand. There are a lot more players than there are makers. Just because I used different words doesn't lessen what I'm saying. Just because the feature exists outside of its origin doesn't lessen what it is, especially when it is changed from its origin. It's more than just input buffers and queuing. This is, again, something I will have to tackle in another video one day. This being said RPG players aren't lesser than fighting game players or vice-versa, these are video games intended for enjoyment, whether that enjoyment is sourced from the joy of competition or the joy of a narrative doesn't matter, let's not attack others for enjoying different things. Different strokes for different fokes. I think it's amazing that we can all be "gamers" and yet enjoy such different things, I love that it's as nuanced as it is. For example, I'm also a massive Grand Strategy/4X fan, that's very different than Dark Souls. - "This genre is an abomination no one really enjoys: people only enjoy finishing them so they can move on. It's like smoking: people think it's cool to smoke but what they enjoy is releasing the toxins after inhaling them." I can't speak for others but personally, my favourite part of a FromSoft game is the story, I love uncovering it slowly as I go and trying to piece together the history of the world and the characters within it. I love the music and how it frames a fight, completely changing a fun cinematic fight into a sad one. I love the exploration, discoveries around every corner which circles back to my love of story. Gameplay-wise specifically though, it's just simply how the weapons feel like they have WEIGHT that is seemingly very hard to mimic by other games, which led to my "Inertia-Action" pitch that I, again, need to cook longer on before I can confidently present that as something we should push. - "The genre RPG is also wrong because you cannot truly role play if the roles are predefined: to role play every choice has to be viable; enforcing a choice removes the capacity to role play." This and the whole paragraph that follows you are 100% right about. "RPG" now-a-days just means there's a skill tree of some kind which causes SO MANY games to be categorized as an "RPG." This is also going to be a video some day, probably something along the lines of exploding the genre into many sub-genres. We'll see. I restate: THANK YOU FOR WATCHING!!! I hope you enjoyed the video despite disagreeing with most of it.

[@Олександр-ь7з6с]

12:54 one line that completely characterizes a person we are listening to

[@DrewSunn]

Yeah, as a really cool guy. 🤙 *kickflips*

[@Narutosonicrule1245]

He's a very good bean

[@ericdelossantos1]

Cmon drew. We love you but you gotta step it up. ❤

[@DrewSunn]

Step it up how? Huh? This comment confused me so much. Thank you though???

[@javierdejesusbonilla4407]

You can't just take away the name of the first game. It's like not saying doom clones to games inspired by doom

[@DrewSunn]

We don't say Doom Clones anymore

[@bepkororoti8019]

Grumpy "I want to sleep" comment ahead, nothing to see here. Most annoying voice I could've expected for a soulslike "time to sleep" vid...

[@DrewSunn]

Most annoying comment I could've expected for a useless "KZbin" comment... Just press the dislike button and leave, there's plenty of content out in the sea, no need to be rude about it.

[@bepkororoti8019]

@@DrewSunn that's exactly what I didn't want to do, just because it's not what I expected right at that moment doesn't mean it's bad content, at least wanted to drive some engagement through a comment. But agreed, unnecessary grumpy comment, sorry for that

[@DrewSunn]

@bepkororoti8019 I accept your apology, thank you, hope you enjoy the content when not attempting sleep.

[@obba40]

There is no problem

[@DrewSunn]

You're right 'cause I solved it 😌

[@t6y6fihu8hy9jjuhi]

Idk why all the fuzzy, is so simple. Souls games = Demon's Souls and its successors. Yes, Demon's Souls, NOT King's Field, Demon's >SOULSLIKE< are just the imitators, the games that were inspired by the OG Souls games in any way, AND made by other companies. The same way Metroidvanias are inspired by Castlevania SOTN and Metroid. Mostly by Castlevania SOTN because the term was originally created to mock it. Anyone that say the OG Souls games are "Soulslikes" is wrong, simple as that, it was a misconception spreaded by noob players that are not well acquainted with the Souls series. Most of these players are those noob new players that just jumped on the bandwagon after the series hit the mainstream, after the success of DS1 and DS2 and the surge of the Soulslikes on the market. Any OG player knows the difference and why the term Souls was born, there was also a time where some people would call the serie a "Soulsborne", just to included the new, at the time, Bloodborne, but this is a mistake because new games would spawn with new titles, so this approach is flawed since it started. So the correct is Souls games for the OG Souls, incluing Dark Souls, Bloodborne and Elden Ring, the medieval action RPGs created by Michael Zaki and his team, and Soulslike for the ones that are inspired by it, made by other companies. This confusion of saying the OG are soulslike is a misinformations, like most misinformations, spreaded, but it is wrong and will always be wrong, is in the name: Souls-""LIKE"". Calling the OG a SoulsLIKE is stupid, is like calling a new Metroid a Metroidlike or a Metroidvania, or a new Mario a Mariolike...

[@DrewSunn]

Is fuzzy a new term that people are using? You're the second person to say it. I'm old. I feel like you didn't watch the video 'cause I talk about exactly this thing. "Soulslike" and "Soulslite" aren't good names for the genre because of two primary reasons. 1. The name inherently calls back to the Dark Souls franchise, which are games that are popularly regarded as amazing games with an overall feel that is both hard to mimic and beat. 2. The name makes it so every game in the genre has to tie itself to every genre within Dark Souls, many of which are already genres formed by other games that Dark Souls just uses to form the experience like MetroidVania or RPG, by calling it Soulslike/lite you're implying that the game has to mimic these as well which narrows what these games can be. Eight years ago you would be right and I'd agree with you, the bulk of the games releasing as "Soulslike" were simply copying Dark Souls and using all of the same systems, but that is not at all the case anymore and we, as-in the gaming industry, needs to adapt to allow these new games to flourish and be properly categorized for us to be able to make educated purchases. I talk about these reasons and many others in the video, I don't want to re-type my entire script in the comments. Lastly, most people definitely use the term MetroidVania to describe CastleVania and Metroid nowadays, so saying we can't use a genre name to describe the game that founded the genre is not true. Is it a little like using the word you're defining in the definition? Sure. But you can still do it if everyone involved knows what the genre is.

[@phorphable8193]

video title: "solving the problem with soulslike games" > talks about genre and how supposedly its a problem i disagree with this video quite a bit and taking 20 mins to come to the conclusion that souls likes arent a genre, but instead a collection of certain genres feels like a huge waste of time

[@DrewSunn]

Well I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the video dawg, can't please everyone. 🤷‍♂️ Hope you find some CAHNTENT that's more your speed.

[@phorphable8193]

@@DrewSunn no idea what you mean by cahntent lol but well, its true that its impossible to please everyone. i just expected something different which would talk in depth about the games or something

[@DrewSunn]

I'd recommend a KZbinr named DondonRV, very good deep dives into the development of these games. Very long winded slow videos, but bangers all the same. Another good one is The Gemsbok, they did a long philosophical analysis of Dark Souls, very great background noise and very educational. Both are inside of the Sources sheet linked in this video's description.

[@capnphuktard5445]

Nioh 2 is better than all of them put together.. Problem solved

[@DrewSunn]

Comparison is the death of joy.

[@SilverHawk0987]

Mustache=low views kek💀

[@DrewSunn]

Are you trying to say my "low views" are caused directly by my moustache?

[@PhalisoBringerOfDoom]

I genuinely hate the genre names roguelike roguelite and soulslike

[@DrewSunn]

Me too dawg, Roguelike/lite is on my hit list.

[@DooDoo-f4v]

Simple have them all play like Sekiro. Oh wait judging by retention rates with trophies that's too much. Even these games are overhyped trash that offer no real difficulty. They peaked with Sekiro. Nice attempt to monetize yapping.

[@DrewSunn]

Worst take challenge accomplished.