How to (and how not to) talk about videogames online

[@noodlefunny]

u can get the ally rn at rog.gg/NoodleAllyX if u want....

[@specialtrees237]

and if I don't?

[@zandrew8648]

noogle hello

[@fishencasedinjelly3950]

dont cae

[@cobalttj6356]

no i poor spend money on sepcial edition frogger crocs

[@robodoesstuff948]

@@cobalttj6356 almost first

[@orrfrank2568]

step one, everyone else is wrong

[@jamma5185]

step two, my opinion is objectively correct

[@JunkNVamps]

Step three, spread my opinion around the internet as fact!

[@Borgerboi-fm8ij]

step four, slur.

[@dragon1130]

​​​@@JunkNVamps Step four: "I agree with everyone.

[@applesauce6606]

wow everyone in this comment section is wrong and step 1 is wrong and stupid and if you think im wrong your stupid

[@foetidum]

This was the WORST Scott the Woz video I've ever seen

[@swansonjoe7121]

Objectively

[@HobzVHS]

I know right he doesn’t even mention Nintendogs for DS once this video…

[@FacelessMage117]

The Woz has lost his Woz for sure

[@anyaguilar1595]

The scott lost scott

[@Kane0123]

It's my first

[@st2udent_650]

Noodle, in 10 years I will make a 30 minute video essay on how you're wrong.

[@coledatbom6749]

Do it

[@amacsizbirkisi]

@@coledatbom6749 he said ten years

[@coledatbom6749]

@@amacsizbirkisi Yeah do it in 10 years😆

[@AlkeralexExists]

Rise and shine, Mr freeman...

[@Two49]

I don't mind Arin calling me a moron because he's right.

[@WaterDrinker666]

He didn’t even make it 2 minutes without an Amen break. His condition is worsening.

[@liamjohnen8426]

rate of increase in breakcore content is proportional to rate of increase in quality

[@jimmyjenkins1907]

Its terminal 😢

[@Bittamin]

Love the Amen but I actually never use that break in my songs; think and hotpants are so sweet🎉❤

[@ayoutubeperson9840]

breakcore isn't a disease. It's a lifestyle.

[@A_Professional422]

​@@liamjohnen8426 you're wrong. Here's how I know, the quality was already off the charts, so you couldn't have possibly measured it

[@thehenryguy]

i saw the first 10 seconds and asked myself: "why the fuck is noodle now shaggy?"

[@bleepin]

He's been living on Scooby Snacks since he crashed his car into his house a few videos ago

[@childlikesaiyan]

Halloweennnn

[@JustinSmith-mh7mi]

Glad I'm not the only one

[@Tonnyboi]

Noddle

[@RealDavidx3D]

Now I can't unsee this

[@RedUmbre]

it's almost like he's some kinda grumpy gamer

[@daaaaa-hc2ep]

Say that again

[@leavemealone802]

Is almost like this is a 10 year old video

[@Fractals_]

Hey, i'm grump!

[@Blariblary]

@@Fractals_ I am not as grunp

[@ernestosouza3471]

​@@leavemealone802 yeah, people 10 years ago didn't know how to communicate neither make well-constructed arguments

[@armstrongturbo]

“Dear diary, today I saw a video that made me angy.”

[@OmegaMultiplayer]

As I always say, you have to ask yourself “Do you want to be right, or do you want to have a conversation?” Because those are two very different goals.

[@NixityNullt]

Insert reference to current Politics here

[@rattles2326]

What if I just want to argue, without any care to the point?

[@quarreneverett4767]

@@OmegaMultiplayer i agree i often come wanting a convo but get hit witha. Solid wall of wanting to be right then it ends up escalating and or i try to drop the subject

[@Oh_the_humanity]

​@@rattles2326 consider getting a job

[@Oh_the_humanity]

​@@rattles2326 consider getting a job

[@StupidEdits]

I think a lot of people forget that channels like AVGN were not actually reviewers, the Angry Video Game Nerd was a character for a comedy short. It's kind of crazy how HE became a new blueprint for two decades

[@rabidguineapig]

I remember people took those kinds of videos far more seriously than any sane person should. Many people would form their opinions solely on the AVGN's videos. I think now people are a little more capable of forming their own opinions these days.... right?

[@poleve5409]

​​@@rabidguineapigno, people are the same. Not worse, perhaps better, but mostly the same.

[@kogamustard7717]

​ Nowadays its "based gamers" channels vs "niche channels"

[@trappercap]

AVGN wasn’t the blueprint, SNL was

[@swansonjoe7121]

The domino effect of AVGN all the way to weirdos saying shit like “How (insert media) broke me”

[@Fredlyy]

I feel like Arin portrays his argument like that because it was a popular way of critiquing things at the time. Channels like Nostalgia Critic, Angry Joe, RedLetterMedia (specifically the Plinkett videos), and I Hate Everything were popping off at the time doing similar types of rant/angry videos. There was an understanding that the reviewer was being over the top for the entertainment of the video, not necessarily trying to avoid logical fallacies or alienating the audience

[@msebasg]

Same with the jokes, he's ignoring the context in which the video was released in. I'd say that's the entire reason why it was overall well received.

[@XanderVJ]

@@msebasg Nope. The video was horribly made ESPECIALLY taking into account the context it was made. One of the things that people tend to forget about the "angry nerd ranting on the internet" style of critique is that the reviewer makes fun of themselves almost as much, if not more than of the thing they are critiquing. Not to mention that usually they didn't make fun of the people who did like the piece in question, and even acknowledge its strong points. But Arin didn't do any of that. His yells may be over the top, but the things he's yelling about are 100% straight.

[@LunamrathP]

@@XanderVJ "Not to mention that usually they didn't make fun of the people who did like the piece in question" Neither did Arin. He made fun of the pre-emptive "didn't watch, still responded" style of argument, which I feel like people have gotten way better about not doing but I definitely saw plenty of at the time.

[@JVdragoon]

​@mastracu66207 I think compared to the other videos Arin made, the Zelda one really seem like it was him just having his personal gripes than it being a flaw of the game. Not to say there aren't some good points in it but I guess it didn't really seem as structured as the others and more off the cuff feelings.

[@theradionicrevival8068]

@@msebasgI mean??? Even noodle says it’s mostly funny and appeals to him, the video never offended him specifically because he already said he’s not the biggest OoT fan either. This was more about unpacking why it failed to resonate with so many people despite being so entertaining. He’s sings the videos praises multiple times. Arin was getting hate at the time for his critiques here back then, it was huge and it still echoes today. The reason why dudes like me and noodle (and a lot of you) likely didn’t care was a mix between not being enough of a fan or having thick enough skin to not be bothered if someone jabbed at media you liked, especially in an entertaining and funny way Which is great! But Arin himself made the video specifically NOT to reach people like us. He was making it for the people he WOULD be pissed at the notion that OoT may not be good. And noodle was judging it on how well it appeals to THEM and where that went wrong If you meant stuff like the slurs (which I doubt), uhhhh no? it was wrong then and it’s wrong now

[@NateDogg2888]

Yeah, Arin’s wrong a lot about OoT, but that video still fucks. I honestly appreciate the blunt opinions. Like hearing a local guy go off about the thing he’s on about that week, and everybody gives him a “fuck yourself, Johnny”, keeps arguing, and at the end it’s beers all around. Not every argument needs to be presented as a graduate level lecture. Sometimes the 2am back porch rants are enough.

[@iirsmv]

I think a big part of this video is just inspired by generational differences in expectations in internet etiquette. Because I’m almost exactly Arin’s age, I fucking love OOT with my entire soul, I watched his OOT vid when it first came out, and none of it registered with me as any more than the standard background reading of Internet Snark and condescension. That’s just how things were. Arin speaks like he’s writing an early 00s forum post, where a big unwritten rule is: even starting a new topic, you have to act like the conversation has been going on without you before you jump in, and so heading off would-be detractors and acknowledging-through-omission commonly held assumptions like how widely beloved and generally groundbreaking the game is, as not to be repetitive and thus boring, is generally considered good form. The internet used to be a lot more intimate and interconnected, so you had to take these kinds of actions and assumptions to contribute to the conversation, and that’s the cadence Arin is speaking in. He’s not (or was not) used to how it is today, where every post/video/whatever is made in a discreet space that might potentially be anyone’s first experience on the internet ever, algorithm willing, and has to build context as it goes to account for that.

[@klickonthat5244]

That is such a great thing to think about when considering the context of certain videos being made within a certain time. I think the time in which people make and upload videos should ALWAYS be considered when giving criticism.

[@TheShitSmith]

I think a lot of it was just that the done thing was a lot more confrontational. Look at Nostalgia Critic, AVGN, etc. They're loud, angry, and crass. They purposely antagonize the viewer, and the viewer knew not to take it too personally. I agree, a lot of this is just a cultural disconnect. There is an argument that the angry review shouldn't be the template for actual criticism, but I don't think that that's something that the collective Internet would really realize for at least a couple more years.

[@ピカリFritzyBeat]

Nail on the head right here.

[@teamsabre4]

Its just zoom zooms are their special snowflake syndrome where their feelings need to be placated before you present your arguement or else they get mad and wont listen to you hmmph!

[@billyworkmna]

​@@TheShitSmith I think a lot of those early game review channels were entertainment at the forefront, and actual criticism was more experiential with when they played the game. Arin spoke with passion and I guarantee still recognises the inherent importance of ocarina of time. It's a cultural milestone for videogames as an artform, and even with those sprinkled bits against his audience I feel they're more tounge in cheek.

[@rattles2326]

I feel like Noodle, through this video, has fully explored the feeling of "You might have some really good points, but you're pissing me off." more than any other youtuber I've seen.

[@WardenAzdron]

If someone has good points, they have good points. Stop making your emotions someone else's problem.. When did having your hand held and your tummy rubbed become a requirement for taking on new information? I hate this soft new world.

[@ironninja259]

@@WardenAzdron When did it become acceptable to be rude and insulting for no reason when you could have a calm, reasonable discussion without slapping someone in the face? The concept of courtesy is not new

[@tracyblanchard7663]

​@@WardenAzdron You don't hate anything new here, you hate etiquette. A millennia-old concept.

[@thatguythere6161]

@@WardenAzdron News flash. No one is more receptive to information after getting insulted. A great way to get people to ignore your points is to make them mad first.

[@igl0bruh693]

@@WardenAzdron "stop making your emotions someone else's problem" yeah, well, stop making your whiny feelings about "this world" everyone else's problem

[@KeithBallardA]

It used to feel like the world paused when a Sequelitis episode dropped lol, it was tragic to see it end so soon.

[@emPatheticShow]

Buddy, it's not that deep and noone ever felt Egoraptor was that important. Go outside. Like you want proof dude was always a major cunt, watch The Tester.

[@FlameHidden]

Hey! Its furry boy!

[@daeamiralis]

I was just watching your old morrowind vids wtf

[@tms4838]

Love you Noodle, but the title for this video is so misleading. Zooming in on one specific video and making it out to be the pinnacle and cause of toxic internet debate is obscuring a lot of context

[@TheGhostThatWas]

7:00 "Sun Tzu said that. And I think he knows a little bit more about how to talk about video games online than you do, pal, because he invented it."

[@LegoSkeleton]

FUN FACT i only learned recently: Sun Tzu did in fact say "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight". That line is actually in the Art of War. Solider TF2 wasn't lying.

[@CarrotConsumer]

Sun Tzu voiced Soldier in TF2.

[@666GodofDark]

"And then he perfected it so that no man could defeat him on a video response"

[@SaltpeterTaffy]

@@666GodofDark And that's why whenever you're on the verge of victory in a game, you father asks "are ya winnin, Sun?" Unless it's a farm simulator!

[@Emily12471]

​@@LegoSkeleton SOILDER CAN READ???

[@Jumungous]

Breaking down one decade-plus-old video feels like limiting the impact of this critique. A broader look at the era's culture of criticism, or reconnecting the context with how Arin engages in criticism today, would have made this stronger. This felt a bit incomplete, which is a rarity for this channel. Love what you do, Noodle, looking forward to the next one!

[@bobtheguyyyyy]

You’re not wrong, but this is a whole English teacher response which I find incredibly funny especially in this context

[@arronomus8026]

Moreover the whole thing was spurred on from a joke about people who immediately shoot an argument before watching the video. Which was common. Which is *still* common.

[@leovillant768]

The video would have been like 1h long

[@Softlol]

I agree. I thought it would be put in context.

[@Mrblackhawk709]

For me, yes, this does feel like a "late to the party" response to Arin's video. The person we were 10+ years ago can be, possibly, radically different compared to the person we would become today. I believe that applies here. I like how Noodle approaches Arin's content in thoughtful critique, but falls apart when bringing up the "straw-man fat guy" bit. Arin was addressing the people that just click on a video, not watch it, and to then just rip into it and say negative things to get a reaction; that's what that character was representing in my opinion. Not a fan of Ocarina of Time or a Nintendo fan, but a degenerative individual, who poses as a die-hard fan, that doesn't want to listen to begin with, and just loves to tell people their wrong to reaffirm their own beliefs, even if they know themselves their are wrong on certain points. However, if they were an Ocarina fan, they would've been more open to watch the whole video and then engage with Arin in calm thoughtful conversation to get a better understanding of specific points. Just plain arguing/yelling and throwing accusations out the gate gets you nowhere, which leaves room for you to fumble talking points. In the end, I agree "straw-manning" your audience can hurt your overall message and turn people away, but misunderstanding the intended purpose of that portion of it and missing the point of it doesn't help either. Again, that wasn't an Ocarina fan being kicked out the window, but a troll that enjoys pissing people off, laughing at those who get upset, and who is unwilling to listen to what the other person has to say on a particular topic. Arin knew he wasn't going to be able to reach those people; it's my strong belief why the character was made. But yeah, kicking the guy out the window was extreme and was done for "comedic effect". A better action would have been to just cut to gameplay and continue with the critique instead. I've kept up with Noodle and his videos for a long time; he makes great stuff! This video just hits differently in how something was mis-interpreted. Also yes, comparing how Arin engages in criticism today along with this episode of Sequelitis would have been a great thing to add to show how Arin has changed over the years.

[@camwing]

the biggest problem with the OoT Sequelitis is that it came out when I was an impressionable teenager who got all of his opinions from the internet, and it made me think the game I loved was actually bad

[@LoseMillion]

Hey cool to see you here

[@imjustken1]

I was a teenager and watched the sequelitis and didn’t think oot was bad?

[@camwing]

well clearly you weren't as impressionable as me

[@MarcTelang]

yeah I bet this will be one of the largest comments on this video

[@muffinmonk]

I was a teen and I just thought arin was an idiot who didn’t know how to read. It was apparent in his metal gear awesome videos lol. “WTF NO ONE TOLD ME THERE WOULD BE BOMBS THERE”

[@This-Was-Sparta]

Tbh, I remember it being a pretty cathartic video at the time. I could never bring myself to finish OoT for similar reasons like Arin described, but expressing that would be met with angry shit flinging. I never saw the humonculus in the beginning as being aimed at anyone who likes OoT, rather at those who just wouldn't accept criticism of it no matter how constructive. Having your favourites shittalked is never a great feeling, but losing your cool over it is also a choice.

[@swishfish8858]

This, 100%. It took me a while to understand why people would get so upset about that opening bit. Then I realized that it's mostly people with extremely low self-esteem seeing a caricature of somebody with one trait they share and immediately assuming it's of them. And frankly, if someone is going to react that strongly to some guy that makes the hahas on the internet, they need to disconnect and go work on themselves.

[@hoppareiter]

"Even though everyone hated it, engagement had doubled" - Sun Tzu

[@RashidMBey]

This is Sun Tzu after four hours on X/Twitter

[@realkingofantarctica]

_"The strength of a critic lies in the consistency of their voice."_ Despite coming from Dunkey of all people, this quote still lives in my mind, and for more than just criticism.

[@Quadrilli0n]

Wow that is actually pretty good

[@cinemachronic]

Yeah dunkey is a good critic

[@StupidEdits]

As Dunky once said "the strength of a critic lies in the consistency of their voice - Dunky" He said his own name Like a Pokémon

[@treefingers6572]

Dunkey is one of the most unpretentious and intelligent people on this platform, I have zero trouble believing it was him who said that.

[@angrybrony]

Fitting given his sonic frontiers is about on par with the video this video is about...in being assholeish fir no reason.

[@cookoo4lyf]

I feel like if I were to summarize this video into one sentence it would be : "You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole." -The dude -Wayne Gretzky -Michael Scott -Sun Tzu

[@GooberInternet]

- Duke Nukem - Scott Wozniak - PussySlammer9000 - Me, a fuckboy - You, a bitch - Dylan Guptill - Jeremy Elbertson

[@aa-tx7th]

being a loud @sshole is likely the ONLY way youll be heard. especially now with the internet being so crowded with users, ruzzian/chinese bot farms/trolls, and bots. also the guy in this vid is literally the biggest loudest @sshole in the room and he aint even right 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 he's OBJECTIVELY wrong and hes also a complete unaware hypocrite while doing it too

[@zacky7572]

I would summarize it as, “This very biased, paper-skinned guy got mad about a ten year old video about a flawed game, clearly because it struck a nerve that still bothers him, and took a decade to say that the video ‘failed’…even though it clearly started the discourse it was trying to spark, lol.” Also, fuck OoT puzzles. Great game overall, but shooting those little stone eyes WAS stupid.

[@nutbuster87]

sun tzu, he said his own name. like a pokémon

[@kolardgreene3096]

The argument assumes the point of the review is to win the Ocarina of Time lovers over instead of communicating Arin's experiences in hopes it resonates with someone. Tapping into other people's experiences in a game might make them less likely to rage, but it isn't the responsibility of the reviewer. Reviewers communicate their experiences, their perspective and do not need to assume the point of view of the greater audience to make their opinion valuable, especially in the context of such a widely beloved game. Your argument makes sense only if you view critique as a service to the audience rather than a contribution to the zeitgeist.

[@Worthsday]

It's funny how Arin's video still spurs arguments. So much so, that we have reached the point of meta analysis of why that is.

[@lakthederg]

meta analysis of meta analysis of games. the endless cycle.

[@GAHAHAHH]

And even the "meta analysis" is sparking it's own arguments, I have legitimately seen people in this comment section say "Arin did nothing wrong".

[@aa-tx7th]

probably cause its a good vid with some good points unlike most derivitave reactionary trash like the vid were commenting on now

[@lakthederg]

@@aa-tx7th you missed the whole point of the video. he’s using it as a way to understand what not to do in an argument-even if it’s an old example, the points he brings up are very good, and he even critiques himself at the end. old vids just aren’t that good sometimes.

[@cryfly1]

​@aa-tx7th you came out straight of 2012 huh? "Everything i dislike is trash, even if the video has actual calm good analysis on how to engage with something, I will hate on it because it's against what I agree, and I want to be allowed to hate on things without people hating on my hating, i am the only one allowed to say my opinions, if anyone disagrees, they are just snowflakes" you are immature

[@hunt2334entertainment]

I know that Egoraptors video was horribly worded for a regular online debate, I loved his passion. And I loved his conviction in the video. You don't see it anymore.

[@romankhamov6229]

Agreed. There is a strange dichotomy between "let's try to have a conversation and not alienate anybody" and "Here's the truth and if you think otherwise here's why you're wrong!" Both things are good. One is healthy and one is fun.... I think I just re-discovered why our nation is so divided.

[@anagonyaowusu3119]

@@romankhamov6229enlightened centrism makes me wet

[@winteriris13]

@@romankhamov6229 AMERICA 🦅🏈

[@swishfish8858]

I'll be honest - I still love the video. Just saw it again the other day. Sure its humor didn't age that well for me, but other than that I can't find myself disagreeing with basically any of his points. Especially as a game developer myself - so much of what OoT did was bad, and we've since corrected it. I'd argue the Fromsoft games are a great continuation of the OoT gameplay formula, for example. But to keep praising OoT as some abject masterpiece based mostly on nostalgia, I think that's dangerous, honestly!

[@toothlessbean]

I'd get much more offended when Arin would do a let's play of a game I loved, suck at it, blame it on the game, and be like "See! Look how dog shit this game is!" I realize now that he was probably just playing it up to be funny.

[@626lancer]

Yeah, he's stated many times that the Grump personality is just that, a personality. Game Grumps as a whole, he said, was a good way for him to get a lot of his anger out that he bottles up in his day to day life. He's not concerned about being right, he's concerned about being mad and funny. Some people think it's funny, some don't, but it is a character at the end of the day.

[@henrynelson9301]

This is really encapsulated perfectly in the ocarina of time playthrough, where Dan openly mocks Arin sucking at the game. Especially in the episode where Dan says “even I’m going to leave an angry comment on this video” and just commented “Arin sucks at video games” on the NSP account

[@ivanalmeida4555]

You see, that's EXACTLY what he does with every single Sonic game he plays He chooses the worst version available, plays like a toddler, and convinces everyone that its the game's fault

[@omnisel]

don't care if he was playing it up, fuck that shit, either actually play the game or don't and start a podcast or whatever. I fuckin hated watching game grumps cuz of that shit. why are you even playing a video game when that isn't even the focus 90% of the time, do literally anything else please!

[@swishfish8858]

​@@ivanalmeida4555If you're "convinced" that a game sucks because some screamy haha man on the internet said so, you deserve to feel sad about it tbh. Get your own damned opinions.

[@xephrou]

noodle adbreak is like the type of thing your remaining brain activity shows you in your last 7 minutes of life

[@venstoma]

Words cannot describe how much I LOVE these old TV-style intermissions. The very specific kind of humor in them tickle a few nondescript bones in my body which may or may not involve a rib, a finger and my whole hip

[@ccherry.berryy]

YEAH! It’s like a time capsule of a unspecified era. It adds a very unique flavour to his art and I think it’s delightful

[@Ohokok_channeledition]

It had me crying

[@tomb1686]

I literally watched almost the entire Ally-x commercial thinking "wow he really put a lot of effort into making this fake gaming device for this bit, that's hilarious" before I realized it was a real sponsor.

[@somedude4487]

22:25 "singing the game off and sucking its praises" is such a good line

[@averysketchygamer3241]

Something I think that's kinda ignored in this is how OoT was essentially this "flawless game" during the time period, and the amount of slander that was thrown to people who even dared to say anything even slightly negative to OoT. He was arguing against a majority of people who were ready to alienate anybody who even acknowledged their subjective differences. Trust me, as someone who's been a part of the Zelda fandom for as long as I've had internet, I've seen the fanbase at their worst. They were incredibly vicious and would die on any hill, regardless of how delicately you would phrase your arguments. Arin made the guy at the beginning not to represent anybody who liked Ocarina of Time, but instead, to parody the types of people who would ignore rational discussion and choose to bully any opposition to an opinion founded entirely on nostalgia (aka, Keyboard warriors). I love Ocarina of Time, and I viewed his points as a criticism of his own exprience with the game, and his "slander" towards the aggressive vocal majority who were more than likely going to be writing up multiple essay-long and hate-filled comments. Even I was sick of the fanbase's blatant OoT favoritism, and it wasn't because I hated OoT, but because people were just so aggressive and hostile for no reason. The "I'm gonna get CRUCIFIED" line demonstrates this mentality going into the scripting process perfectly. Even still though, Arin admits that he wishes he could rewrite the video to not isolate the people he unintentionally targeted. He regrets the impact he left. Personally? I still stand by the video, even if I disagree with a lot of his opinions. His video singlehandedly changed the Zelda fanbase and allowed for a lot of people who were too scared to share an opinion, to actually have the courage to have a voice. Now there's a lot more diversity in the fandom, a lot of people who sent actual death threats to Ninendo due to games like Wind Waker having a different art style would mellow out, and there has been much more open discussion about Zelda's game quality as a whole. Without Arin's video, we'd probably never have gotten BotW. Games like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were created because people just wanted more Ocarina of Time. But the fanbase just criticized those games as well. Without the audience like Arin speaking against the formula, Zelda probably would have stagnated into obscurity. But instead we got a revolution in game design, and even though I still like the OoT formula more than BotW/TotK's, I'm glad Arin finally got the games that would speak to him. And that Zelda gets to live on because of his influence

[@ChristopherCraven]

Really well said.

[@leavemealone802]

Nicely put!

[@flandyc4513]

This needs to be at the forefront of peoples minds. I was there. And you hit the nail right on the head.

[@krayasou4630]

Good comment. I saw the guy at the beginning similar to the anti-vaxxers in hydrogenbomberman's vaccine video. A group of people that are not going to have their mind changed by the video. Not fans of OoT, that just like the game a lot. In Arin's case these hypothetical (but probably real) people already had their comments written before they watched the video. I do agree with Noodle that the ending bit, about how Arin didn't want to make anyone angry and how writing the comment after watching the video is fine, should have been at the beginning of the video.

[@alpacalorde]

agree with everything aside from Arin being the reason we have BotW (i know you don't mean it literally). At the time, even the fanbase was getting sick of the basic formula, hating Skyward Sword was not an unpopular opinion, and like Arin says in the video, LBW was nintendo opening up the fanbase to a shift in fomula and, eventually, another shift in soul. Nintendo had been slow cooking the idea of BotW for an amazingly large time to get it just right cause they knew that if they messed it up it could've been the biggest blemish on the series so far, if not the outright death.

[@Chozimba]

This a C- essay about a B+ essay and I feel less informed than ever

[@hunterh1175]

YO HE REUSED MY FAVORITE AD JOKE! The « he is the same » one

[@noodlefunny]

The original version of it is gone so I wanted to make sure people could still see it lol

[@bounceysteve]

@@noodlefunnywhat happens if this one becomes gone

[@entropias_gonos]

@@bounceysteve We celebrate cause Noodle finally saw the irony in making a video about alienating viewers but not pointing out his own colossal fuckup during the whole BG3 controversy?

[@DrFrankenMax]

​@@entropias_gonosobviously he didn't alienate ppl good enough cause you're still here

[@lakthederg]

@@entropias_gonos bro watches one video and lets the internet people formulate his own opinions!

[@minemoods]

IDK if I'm just stupid, but I feel like I just walked in on Noodle mid rant and missed the first 10% of context that would help me get why he is talking about this.

[@SmeggyDxD]

He went full tard cuz someone insulted his favorite game

[@SunriseGirl]

Eaxctly like why tf are we critqueing a 10 year old video everyone else has already argued about...

[@Cz4rBDV5e8w]

I thought that Noodle was going to draw a line between this video as a somewhat mild example to what video game discussions have become, which is to say much worse. Instead he just stayed really mad at this one video, judging it as immature, and making solid but abstract points about how to empathize and persuade.

[@Bubble-Foam]

@@Cz4rBDV5e8w Yeah, that’s what I was really hoping for. I almost wonder if he just doesn’t want to get harassed for talking about current KZbinrs cause of what happened with the baldurs gate video

[@sum_moss9092]

people have a hate boner for egoraptor, thats it really

[@iateyoface9d7]

I think the caricature of the fanboy doesn't hinder the video as much - because even though it's absurd and nobody would want to be portrayed as such, that's the point. That's what people who plug their ears and start typing stuff in the comments do. So Arin throws them out and says "Now that THAT guy's gone, let's critique what some people call the pinnacle of gaming (Insert spinning death puck OOPS!) ". Even brings him back in the credits and says "Now that you've watched the video, go ahead and say what you feel - you've listened to my piece." I will now make a two hour response video titled "Noodle, Egoraptor, and the Death of Media Literacy: an Analysis on Ludonarrative Dissonance". Edit: I think it should also be noted that the series is called "Sequelitis", and the notion that OoT's noteworthyness made a template that the franchise would follow (along with frustration towards that) was the basis for Arin's criticisms and vitriol towards the game. I think the fact that it took Nintendo almost two decades to shake up the formula that OoT established with BotW is a testament to why somebody like Arin would vent their frustrations about Zelda's (at the time) present day game design. Again, I think if you believe the commenter is a stand-in for an average fan of the game - you are missing the point of that joke.

[@PrincessFelicie]

Foreshadowing is a ludonarrative device

[@thanatoast]

I'm sorry, but it's still not very good at getting the point across. Arin spends a lot of the video bitching about stuff he doesn't like, which he's allowed to not like and it's valid and all, but he acts like everyone else in the world is equally as impatient when it comes to following a story along. A lot of his problems are very unique to his playing style, and he never acknowledges this or how much the series has indeed grown from OoT's problems.

[@quarreneverett4767]

Yeah good point. It was something meant to be fair not object hate or anything. I get that :)

[@AbigatorM]

@@thanatoast yea and no one argues that. his points are the problems WITH OoT not what it gave the games after. Also the fanboy skit was for people blindly without listening already saying "nuh huh". if you feel attacked by that, maybe you are part of it? cause i never felt like he ment me (a person who played it and loved) cause i am not like the person aron throws out the window.

[@SaintSkeleton]

I think some people forget that newgrounds exists and how wildly different the platform was from youtube back then, newgrounds is where a lot of my favorite people got their starts, but most of them arent really acceptable in most social circles these days

[@Maxcom12]

I think I'm too old for serious video game essay discourse I'm going to bed.

[@gabriellacet1172]

"you are nitpicky and biased, I win, bye bye"

[@EloahAloha]

Sigh.

[@frempy4426]

​@@EloahAloha It's a Dunkey reference

[@Mister_Don888]

I hate this meme

[@-moyo-]

17:09 i remember from one game grumps episode Arin said that’s one of the things he’d go back and change about the video, because you can just look left and right to see it

[@MatthewCobalt]

Even he admits that the point of the game was how you see things in a 3D space.

[@scenesav463]

Noodle I think you just have beef with a 10 year old egoraptor video

[@RashidMBey]

Noodle enjoyed the video, he just had thought about it and had empathy for the people who loathed it.

[@derp3044]

@@RashidMBey wish he said that then instead of isolating the fanbase that did enjoy the video

[@derp3044]

@MrDiana1706 the comments do have a small minority of people from that era that watched it then, and some did enjoy the video. Mind you, it IS a minority, but I did think it was a bit weird to go off on such a tangent about such an old video. Yes, there was lots to improve, but who knows about the guy now? If he said this stuff when the video came out, fair game, but to be so long after the fact? You can take any video from the start of peoples careers and belittle them...

[@EddyRatt]

I think we need to have a conversation about how Let's Players and similar creators experience games differently from players who aren't monetizing their play to an audience. Erin's complaints are complaints that I would make of a lot of games where I'm on stream and trying to balance talking to chat, with getting through as much of the game as possible by the end of stream. It's easy to have an experience that differs wildly from the audience who played your game at age 9 and spent months soaking in every last detail. I find Erin's complaints about time consumption, poor visibility, and missing puzzle pieces to be incredibly sound. Ocarina is simply not a game I would recommend to a young person today, or to anyone for a Let's Play of their first playthrough. I purposely play this kind of patient exploration game in private. A lot of what Erin said I relate to from my experience of streaming a marathon of 2D Sonic Games-None of which I had played before. It was unfortunate playing to an enthusiastic audience of 30-year strong Sonic fans who played the games daily as kids. I missed a lot of what they had gone through as patient and opened minded children. I found myself stuck and frustrated trying to force my way past mechanics that were either explained in a manual I didn't have time to read, or required failing over and over to hidden traps I had to memorize to avoid. Those games feel really unfair and cruel. Which they are, but they were also meant for kids to spend a year or two taking a deep dive into, not for a busy 30-something to use and throw away for content. It's a conversation I have with my community sometimes when I'm having a shit time with their favorite game. I probably would appreciate things a lot more if I was the target audience, and had the free time to eaze into a new world.

[@justcallmejudge]

scott the woz made a similar joke as well, where he depicts "square enix fans" as being shot. does that mean he wants me dead?

[@blais6905]

watch out he has the nuclear launch codes to your house

[@sidasterdisaster]

Scott the Woz does want you dead. That’s not why, though.

[@luckystarplays1837]

Idk man I’ve been dead for a while now. You might be next.

[@yoshimallow]

I always thought that was a weird metaphor to how the Pixel Remasters were being released on platforms that already had most of them. And how Squeenix were basically shooting their fans... again.

[@crackedemerald4930]

yes.

[@yolomolo2736]

Is he never gonna get a new house? He’s just live like a caveman until everything’s just dust

[@poleve5409]

it's got style it doesn't need a redo

[@lakthederg]

@@poleve5409 the feng shui is excellent.

[@626lancer]

So, I think this is kind of a miss by noodle imo. First, and what bothered me the most, was saying that Arin completely isolated the intended audience with the strawman in the beginning (which I will agree, it totally was.). That wasn't OoT fans, that was specifically those who defend it without choosing to take a deeper look, the type who would just write out a massive comment before watching the video. It was meant to poke fun at best, or antagonize at worst, the type of fan who is unable or unwilling to look deeper at a piece of media they loved. Second, the lack of context. Arin's video game out 10 years ago. Internet arguments, and the zelda fandom in general, were VERY different 10 years ago. This is most apparent with the comparison to the Red Dead 2 review. Comparing a review from 10 years ago to a review from 5 years ago feels disigenuous. Sequilitis came out when youtube was still kinda the wild west, where you said what you wanted, how you wanted. NakeyJakey's video came out when youtube was getting more stable, when reviewers knew that unabashed opinions were very much not a good idea. And as for the Zelda fandom, the video came out when OoT was the golden child of the gaming world. Critiquing it was not something you could do lightly, any admittance of, "Well, these aspects were good, lets talk about them." was taken as a reason to ignore and of the bad things, and you were seen as a Hypocrite. Third, this is a smaller complaint but I definitely think it's worth bringing up. The lack of mention at how this video is a decade old, and the internet was very different back then. You stated in the beginning that he is controversial, but then accidentally add onto that controversial nature by bringing up things like Slurs without even a sidenote of that the video is 10 years old. You cannot claim to not want to discuss him as a person and then ad to the fire that makes him controversial. Fourth, failure to bring up that even he has stated that he regrets making the video. An extension of the third point in a way, you speak as though the Arin Hanson that made Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time in 2014 is the same Arin Hanson on Game Grumps in 2024. You brought up that your Extrapolation video and how you regret aspects of it, and think it could've been done better. Arin has said the exact same thing, and it would've been nice if you had brought that up at all, it may have even added to your point a lot. "Even Arin Hanson HIMSELF said that this video could have been made better." Overall, I think this video just misses too much context and adds to the fire of Arin Hanson hate that has spread around the internet ever since that video came out. It comes off as trying to look at the video itself, but struggles to seperate that video from Arin himself, and then fails to ever mention that it's struggling to do so.

[@BlooJay.mp4]

You (and noodle) should watch ArchWizardCJ's "noodle lied & why triple AAA games suck" video

[@kimi7396]

This perfectly encapsulates my issues with this video - Noodle does the very thing he decries here. Arin has grown, and to essentially shovel up ten-year content and present it as his current thoughts is disingenuous at best. If you want a conversation about talking fairly, you actually need to talk fairly.

[@alextifa2695]

@@kimi7396eh idk bout grown but he moved on

[@klausbaudelaire5754]

Excellent comment. Those are also the thoughts I was having while watching the video - the lack of context, the characterization of those commenting before watching, talking about Arin the person anyway, and especially the fact that the video was made 10 years ago by a very different person than Arin is today - and you put them well. The premise of critiquing and analyzing a video made 10 years ago is… odd to me? Even though it was largely well-done, aside from these criticisms, I'm not sure how much this positively added to a conversation that needed to be had.

[@BlooJay.mp4]

@@klausbaudelaire5754 its a new take on a strawman argument just to shill for the ROG ad placement. almost all this guy's videos now feature ads. Nobody brings up the CJ video where someone pointed this out a while ago. its not the first time he's done this, this is just his laziest attempt is all.

[@brovid-19]

The homonculus wasn't _all_ fans, but those folks who like to leave comments about the video before they actually watch it. There's no need to change the "you" to "I" because it's a hypothetical or general statement about puzzles in games, not necessarily OoT Say what you want about the man but he knows game design.

[@oVerdrive-pt5uk]

"Why minecraft peaceful mode is terrifying" "why mario is actually about deep philosophical topics and how mario odyssey is related to Crimes and punishment" "why the Y is the most unique game about X" and all of them are like 2 hours long

[@poleve5409]

Peak

[@PosterityIslesNews]

spongebob rollercoaster gif

[@greatsaiyaguy8868]

there are black holes

[@IGoByLotsOfNames]

And each video starts with a casette tape insert sound effect

[@JoeJoseph-zb1zo]

minecraft peaceful mode is shit. i wonder how a hardcore or speedrun of peaceful mode would look like

[@micahbewley3670]

I feel like Arin's bit about the "homunculus" at the beginning isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. I don't think it was a jab at all OoT fans, but a plea to the sub-set of blindly loyal fans that would criticize him before even hearing him out. It feels like the only people that would be offended by that are those who were already feeling defensive that someone was criticizing their "favorite" game. (other than that I think you had a lot of great points!)

[@OkkonWorks]

I was gonna comment this! The "strawman" isn't really a strawman, it's pointing to the type of viewer who doesn't watch the video before commenting The ending portion for the homunculus is perfect!

[@courier11sec]

It would have felt less insulting if he had asked me before using my image.

[@aa-tx7th]

yeah this id!ot wants to lecture us on "discourse" and "nuance" and is not only a RAGING hypocrite but also doesnt even have the balls to respond to ANY legit criticism of himself either. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 this guy's a total @sshole. but unlike most @ssholes he thinks he's above other @ssholes and that he has the right to wag his finger at the rest of us.

[@flyntrontompkins9381]

While I agree that the homunculus bit probably wasn’t *as* hurtful as the video made it seem, I also think that a large percentage of viewers did lean toward the “already feeling defensive” camp. I think that was more of the point Noodle was trying to make- since a large portion of the audience is going to get at least a little defensive, starting out by spitting on a hyperbolized version of them probably didn’t do Arin many favors. (I respect your opinion and also liked the video a lot)

[@Cruxin]

@@flyntrontompkins9381 this, its not that the one bit was absoultey unforgivable it's that he starts ridiculously uncharitably and never changes that

[@LordBroccoli32]

I don’t wanna be that guy, but at one point I started to realize that the construction of this video’s more humorous and/or heated moments shared a lot of similarities to the video criticized. Not saying that’s a bad thing; in fact, I think a point you were trying to make was that his video could be good if framed differently. But it’s still pretty ironic

[@metronicmagician1816]

I wouldn’t be surprised if this was intentional, but I’m pretty sure it’s not. The key thing is Sequalitis is very much the modern day video essay. Just in general it does a lot of things that we now see as standard for videos like the one noodle made here. It’s definitely ironic this sequalitis video is as bad as it is since it actively shaped the KZbin landscape.

[@FatAlbert1020]

My very first impression of Noodle’s videos was literally “holy fuck he should ask Erin if its ok to take on Sequilitis”. His content scratched that Egoraptor itch thats been missing since Erin went full time on Game Grumps

[@Cruxin]

Yeah, the format definitely isn't what's being addressed here, it's not really surprising his format is similar he likes the format

[@breakoutthecrxwn5525]

The humor is not being criticized, the presentation of the argument is. He even complimented the "rant" feeling of the video.

[@Blitzbogen]

Not the first time he did that... Something something Baldurs gate 3...

[@shaydeflame000]

About Noodles Video: I honestly thought this was going to be a video about all of video game commentary's. Arin's video isn't alienating anyone or any audience, it's purely for comedic purposes. Compared to other KZbinrs who have tried rage bating, or using the "Woke and its broke" mindset, or make videos just for shock value. I think those are perfect examples towards your argument. Arin's video is literally a pond of criticism compared to the vast ocean of shit take trends. About Arin: I'm not as big of a fan of his as I was before GG, not to mention that social media now a days is more tame than it was during the 2000's and 2010's. But everyone was praising Ocarina of Time, all reception was just positive because we thrived on the nostalgia of a game that we held near and dear to us as children. Even a hint of criticism, and if you've been around at that time, trolls were on a different level of toxicity, you would not hear the end of it. Arin brought a new perspective to the table, where we begin to acknowledge a game differently as we grew up. Not to mention the dude loves breath of the wild. My personal opinion: This video missed the mark and only feels like its missing many key points about how videogames should be looked at. Especially a video that was made during a different era of KZbin and gaming media as a whole. It feels incomplete, but I'm looking forward to the next video

[@onionrings5362]

25:19 Says breath of the wild, Shows 3 clips from tears of the kingdom, what did he mean by this

[@ADFloyd]

That we are "Disgusting, deviant troll monsters".

[@onionrings5362]

@@ADFloyd what

[@donnycorn3086]

​​@@onionrings5362as a long-time noodle fan, yea, that's been the tone of his videos recently. It's been much more noticeable since :Why games are getting bigger." Edit: to make matters worse, IDK if those are mistakes or actual intentions, because both of these videos do cut to something else to steer the narrative.

[@concept8192]

It's cause they're the same game 😊 /j

[@Neph1944]

Bro forgor

[@firewolf1992]

I'll start by saying this is in my opinion, though for future notice to anyone reading a KZbin comment, you should generally view anything someone is saying in a KZbin comment as an opinion since it's likely about something subjective. This video is so weird because you constantly display the ability to understand that Arin is clearly just making a very opinionated video but refuse to accept the capacity that he might know that. I don't think he thought when making the video he was some game design guidebook; I think he just has strong opinions and a capacity to articulate them well, and ever since the Megaman sequelitis videos non-stop appraisal people have interpreted every sequelitis videos like they were education tools more than for entertainment opinion pieces. The tone is supposed to feel conversational, and the reason the video keeps you entertained is because he's not constantly backstepping, as he assumes you're starting off on normal human ground and not assuming the worst. He outright makes a character of someone assuming the worst at the start of the video knowing how people can get about a game that's such a corner stone of history. I don't think he was "wojacking" the Ocararina of time fans. I think the point was just to say, "Don't jump the gun on what I'm about to say." Not every video is designed to appeal to the largest group of people possible, nor is every video meant to make every person who watches it happy. A part of having a strong opinion is that the more you isolate your ground, the more you will attract people to be angry at you. But your opinion simultaneously gains more value the less it bends in order to be more appealing. While this isn't always true, it certainly is for something as mundane as video game analysis. Your video comes off as really self righteous and borderline arrogant at times. For example you do this bit where you essentially say "Which opinion are you more likely to listen to" to "guide" Arin through essay writing 101. Not only does it come off as strangely condescending but simultaneously you really overshoot your "wojacking" of him. *You* instead of letting the video which has plenty of moments of ranting that could of supported your point instead make a version of "what he's doing" that is 10 times more annoying on purpose to support your argument. But it doesn't support your argument because you aren't speaking broadly; you're speaking about a specific person's videos. Broadifying the language he uses develops a significantly more identifiable strawman that makes your side of the argument feel weaker. Also the use of an hbomber guy video as an example for not being inflammatory or at the very least knowing the audience your speaking to is bizarre because you chose the video where he talks about vaccines. The reason he doesn't have to respect the potential opinion of anti-vaxxers is because vaccines are medicine. They are guarded by facts; an opinion about a game from ten years ago isn't. Games are a subjective medium privy to subjective opinions. It should practically be innate to understand any opinion piece about a game or movie or TV show or any form of art is subjective. Our opinions on art can only be defined by our experiences with the art. For example, I loved Undertale, but many of my friends don't. The reasoning why is they were so exposed to the fandom or peoples hype about the game or the extreme praise it was given before they actually played it. Is their opinion less valid because their experience with the form of media isn't pure enough? Who cares, their just my friends chatting. In the same connotation I believe that Arin's video is not trying to be a huge video essay where you're supposed to "come to his side". You even point out in Arins video random meandering rants about stuff like the blue bayou restaurant. Those rants fit into a friendly conversational flow. Their attempt to add to the art is to illustrate that what you are watching is not a Khan Academy video on game design, but a person "calling it as they see it" so to speak. Or putting something people have found hard to articulate into words. By no means do I think the video is perfect; I'm not here to argue on the basis that it's even good. I just think this video is incredibly poor faith, and I don't like when videos in such poor faith have no one expressing anything but agreement with the person they already liked. I don't dislike you personally or your channel, and I don't love Arin Hanson. I say this preemptively because I don't want to be boxed into some catagory. I just really thought this was a bad video. That's all it is. If anyone reads this in the aether and has something to say to modify maybe my understanding of this video I'm fine to read it; I'm not bothered by being challenged on this thought. I just felt like for a video expressing an opinion on a video it would be fair to express an opinion on a video.

[@gamethingstuff]

THIS, this so much.

[@D31taF0rc3]

I wouldnt listen to the example better argument because I hate when people are disingenuous to their opinion on an opinion piece. While he was talking all I could think was "shut the fuck up and get to the point, stop sucking its dick". Hbomberguy is also a funny comparison considering his fallout 3 video is an hour long version of the sequelitis OoT video

[@amysel]

Damn, thats a lot of words, too bad I ain't reading em

[@gamethingstuff]

@@amysel it's okay, I'm sure one day you'll learn how to read.

[@jungeezy]

I agree with everything you said, down to the very last paragraph. I like Noodle, but this kinda felt like a bad faith video and I’m not sure I see the end goal.

[@pluckylump]

I have a hard time being mad about it. Why isn't this video made for me, a person who is not mad about it? Now I'm mad! That's it! I'm making a video essay!

[@pluckylump]

wait... video essays are hard work. I don't like it! You win this round.

[@swordofmybone]

Arin does not criticize all ocarina fans. he criticizes all ocarina fans who were ready to *preemptively rip on him* without even knowing what argument they were disagreeing with. These people in fact do deserve to be depicted as what would later be known as the "soy wojak".

[@mrj1897]

Yes that’s true. But is that worth enabling when you could simply attempt to convince the few wojaks that are listening that there is a chance that he has a point?

[@BackroundNoise-li4gl]

My take is people find that so upsetting, because it accurately describes most "gamers". Not people who play video games but "gamers"

[@aaaa69696-]

Idk your point just boils down to "he was too mean when he talked even if his points were valid" Like sure man super deep analysis. It's entertainment sometimes being rude is entertaining, simple as

[@Cruxin]

Except Arin himself wasn't framing it as just entertaining. He was the one acting trying to create a honest conversation and convince people. But he did it terribly, to the point that people like you in these comments didn't even get that lmao

[@emulatorisland7417]

@@Cruxin Working overtime?

[@Cruxin]

@@emulatorisland7417 what

[@trentnope2419]

@@Cruxin Lol no rewatch egoraptors video and read his title of his series. He is comparing what the previous series have done and how its changed. Don't believe that he was trying to convince die hard fans of OOT to now hate the game.

[@neonfatum]

Don't you love watching a +30 minute video about another +30 minute videogame critique from ten years ago, in which someone was slightly rude to a videogame's ardent fanbase for comedic effect, which may have undermined their arguments to that part of their audience? It's just mindblowing stuff isn't it?

[@jd-ro2lc]

I love OoT and i love the Zelda sequelitis. Everyone I know who likes OoT, ALSO likes the Zelda sequelitis. Where are all these supposed people who are upset at a comedy internet video?? I don't understand why we're treating it like academia. It's from the pov of a raging gamer living in a world where people are showering one game with unending praise, and he wants to tear it down. The Zelda vid is funny, it's entertaining, and this whole thing is just not that serious

[@XanderVJ]

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you and your friends have been in a echo chamber all this time. The Zelda sequilitis video was a controversial one from day one, and it's infamous inside game critique circles. Why people treat it like academia, you ask? Because his previous sequilitis videos were academia-like. Sure, there was over the top humor, but his points were 100% serious. You can't do that, then do what he did in the Zelda sequilitis video, and defend yourself with "hey, it's all a joke!" defense. Because if we are not supposed to take you seriously now, then it means we weren't supposed to take you seriously with your "Castlevania" and "Mega Man" videos either. Your can't have it both ways.

[@jd-ro2lc]

@@XanderVJ "You...have been in a echo chamber" Next sentence: "it's infamous inside game critique circles" Literally describing your own echo chamber. "His points were 100% serious" That's just not true. They were mixed with exaggeration and hyperbole for comedy, just like the Zelda one. "It means we weren't supposed to take you seriously with your "Castlevania" and "Mega Man" videos either" It's as serious as you perceive it, clearly. I disagree with your subjective assessment that the past videos were "academia-like." They were comedic entertainment that also contained critique. Just like how Daily Show is a comedy show that contains news. Does that make Daily Show a news show? I'd call it comedy before I called it news. maybe you disagree "Your can't have it both ways" I can, in fact, have it both ways. It's comedy & critique. It's not contraction. It's not hypocrisy. It is, in fact, both

[@jerrodshack7610]

​@@jd-ro2lc I noticed the hypocrisy you immediately pointed out too lol

[@alexpskywalker]

While I agree with your point about alienating your audience, I also sympathize with Aaron. That video came out when everyone was sucking off Ocarina, and I remember finding the video cathartic. Maybe the video was more meant for people like me who didn't like the game, but couldn't articulate why

[@SmittyWerbenjagorman]

To me the troll guy at the beginning of the video is not necessarily an OoT fan but is more primarily a person closed off to any outside view. Those who act on instinct towards any perceived threat against the thing they hold dear. I think Arin just wants to call people to have an open mind and hear him out before writing a counter. If one encounters someone who holds preemptive hostility towards oneself, as is commonplace amidst the anonymity wasteland of the internet, I'd say it's only fair and natural to distance oneself from that person. Avoiding being represented in a video as a troll freak is as easy as choosing to not reply preemptively.

[@Laura-zc6rm]

I disagree, if the video was structured to be more friendly then i would understand, but the video being so mean spitired makes it really hard to find the "decent middleground" that he begs you to understand, and if you disagree heavily then that would make you the caricature at the start.

[@aolson1111]

@@Laura-zc6rm It seems you have trouble understanding basic facts.

[@Laura-zc6rm]

@@aolson1111 i dont really see how being purposefully inflamatory in a series thats expected to be a more nuanced views on games, turning it into a nearly rant, makes for fair discussion. If he wanted to create never ending discourse, a move that even egoraptor himself admits wasnt great, then he did a good job

[@ohno5559]

Part of me agrees that the response was predictable and avoidable but the rest of me is saying that just because you can predict people on the internet getting incredibly angry and defensive when someone criticizes something they like doesn't mean that they're in the right. Just because a reaction is predictable doesn't make it reasonable. Like sure he could have avoided a lot of conflict and made his video more palatable to internet comment section whiners but why compromise his voice to do that. What obligation does he have to avoid conflict.

[@Part.No.1xbil.Prod.Tp.MXMVIII]

Ocarina of time is one of my favorite games ever and the opening theme almost makes me cry a bit every time I hear it. Despite this, I loved Erin's sequelitis video on the game and have watched it numerous times despite my disagreements because he's just some dude on the internet and his opinions about things I like don't have anything to do with me. Cope. Seethe. Etc.

[@matthewv9169]

Him deviating from or giving caveats to the points he's very passionate/angry about is part of what he claims he's trying to do in the video. He's choosing to frame it as a persuasive essay and not just expression, and part of any persuasive essay is changing your presentation depending on the audience.

[@TeleportRush]

the argument was less about 'avoid conflict' and more 'if you make a persuasive video targeted at an audience, you shouldn't prime that audience to reject the video.'

[@kryst4line]

Last week I had to deal with a furious mob in a silly, viralised vid where I put shit on NFSU1. I really love and cherish my memories with that game, but some stuff has aged like milk and I was just ranting about that. And I just don't care about their rage at me, it was what I wanted to say and don't really care that they can't even think about their childhood game not being perfect.

[@Beakerbite]

@@TeleportRush Precisely. He even mentions this when explaining how the Vaccines: A Measured Response video doesn't position itself gently towards anti-vaxxers because he knows they'll never watch the video.

[@wadewilson6509]

This video feels weird... I started the video believing that it would be about videograme criticism and how to do it. But after 10-15 min, it really feels like a long rant about a 10 year old video like it's the source of all videogame discource that came afterwards. It maybe wasn't the attention, but it looks like at times that you are doing what you're criticizing, which is not being objective. I may have missed something, but again, I can't shake that bitter after taste...

[@theoldworldwarrior451]

I love game grumps, I have for years, but I love it as a podcast not a gaming channel. Watching Arin fumble through a video game is frustrating at best but the chemistry of him and Dan, especially when they have a guest, is golden to me

[@artemisiakyrell7727]

Oh yeah, I don't think anyone's there for the gameplay lmao

[@sopas5791]

To be completely fair, he had no obligation to "meet the fans halfway." Everyone at the time was wearing Ocarina's brown starfish like a hockey mask, and no one ever dared to look at the game critically or perhaps think about it carefully and say, "Hey, maybe there's something wrong here!"

[@JobsSharp]

I don't think Noodle is arguing for an obligation to "meet the fans halfway." It was more of just about phrasing and framing. The "good" example that Noodle gives about Skyrim doesn't meet the fans halfway at all, but it also isn't directly antagonistic. Noodle seems to just dislike how Arin chose to handle criticizing something that he knew a lot of people like, and how that choice led to an unnecessarily polarized discussion rather than the critical one that Arin seemed to be aiming for.

[@Zelvorphis]

When he makes the homunculus at the beginning, I think that was aimed at people who wanted to reject the video without watching not everyone who disagrees or his audience in general. That seemed pretty clear immediately to me, and a clear retort to that kind of closed-mindedness Arin focused on how Oot was different than a open exploration with no linearity and just implies that everyone wants that type of zelda game. But there are plenty of people who enjoy the linear story telling, myself included. I also think that his critique was focused on a modern perspective to point out that it's not a perfect game through all forms of measurement. I think he failed to acknowledge that perspective, that the times have changed since Oot's release, and he failed to acknowledge that some people prefer different forms of story telling and pacing. For these reasons, it's not a good review like Noodle says. However, someone has to point out where the kid who is playing Oot for the first time in the modern era is going to be disappointed. Otherwise they will just hear all the great things about the perfect game that doesn't meet every modern expectation. In that avenue I think Arin's video is valuable. I don't think Arin's video is a great review video with a balanced perspective, but it does provide a genuine contrarian opinion that will resonate with plenty of people who grew up in a different era of video games.

[@marcynarcy]

This

[@artemisiakyrell7727]

Totally, I've watched his content on Game Grumps before I watched that review & I think that gave me some more perspective on where he was coming from, basically, I know the kind of games & game design he likes & can pretty accurately form an expectation of a game based off his reactions. Also it helps that both of us have adhd & thus have similar levels of patience with things haha (albeit my attention span isn't quite as bad as his.)

[@henrynelson9301]

Running Shine’s OoT review also ends with a great section on how hyping it up as the greatest game of all time creates false expectations

[@sirdiesalot2975]

How anyone looks at the homunculus as "every Zelda fan" is beyond me (unless it's basically a self-report), and I'd never even seen or heard of the original video before now. Arin even says it in the clips shown in this video. Actually insane.

[@narutrixil]

Can't wait for 10 years from now for another KZbinr to analyze this video.

[@aa-tx7th]

why? this vid is one of HUNDREDS of vids talking about sequelitis and it says NOTHING original, thoughtful, or novel. just the same old self indulgent arrogant hypocracy he's complaining about.... just like almost every other vid about sequelitis. but maybe itll be an example of a guy publicly smelling his own farts while trying to spray the rest of us with fart-scented deoderant. 🙄🙄🙄

[@benanderson89]

I like all your videos but this ain't it, chief. Other videographers at the time (Such as Zero Punctuation and Jello) all made the same observations: OoT was seen as "perfect" by fans and could not be criticised in any form or bested by any newer titles. That's why egoraptor is vitriolic and why he had the troll character in the yellow shirt at the beginning. He's speaking directly to those people as a bit, the late 00s presentation aside. He is 100% thinking about the audience and knows who the audience is. Context matters but it seems to have gone right over your head this time around. You focussed so much on that one character at the start that it's coloured your perception of the rest of the video.

[@Offline219]

The only people he was making fun of at the beginning of the video are the people who would type out a counter argument without hearing him out first. You clearly watched his video before hand so it's not pointed at people like you. I honestly didn't realize this would be a common misunderstanding.

[@dsdstudios386]

You told me to comment below if the little gamer within is mad. That's my secret. The little gamer within is ALWAYS mad.

[@Crandlefist]

Don't sacrifice your specific voice in the name of following standard advice for rhetorical persuasion.

[@SomeBsMovie]

I'm sure the gaming community will be calm and collected about this video

[@zacky7572]

The video itself isn’t calm and collected

[@ChristopherCraven]

I saw some pretty level headed responses disagreeing with noodle. I kinda disagree with a few things too, but he's not wrong about how to change people's minds, or how some of the nitpicks about his subjective experience with certain puzzles/frustrations weren't universal. Some one else has said it better than I ever could, but at the time it was speaking in response to how hard it was to say anything negative about the game, so many people would really rile up, even if you started warmly with your criticism.

[@JacF6734]

"Let people enjoy things" ass take

[@onoise1262]

l grew up with oot and I watched that video a few years after it came out. It worked really well for me because I didn't feel alienated by the beginning. I took the joke to be directed at people who criticise stuff prematurely and not all fans of the game. And I do disagree with some points he makes but in the end it felt eye opening to me in certain aspects. I was of course influenced by already liking Arin before watching the video

[@TylarwithanA]

So my interpretation of this video - a video about your interpretation of Arin's video - is "Arin has good points but I don't like his delivery/dated humor so that makes it nitpicking and biased. I win. Bye-bye." You make a point to call out how he shows OoT players (which wasn't a generalization of all OoT fans, just the toxic ones who can't handle criticism) to be obnoxious only to be obnoxious himself. While you aren't wrong about your points in a vacuum, this is Arin's comedy style. Yeah it's cringey 2000s newgrounds humor, but that's how he got started and what his fans have come to expect. It seems to me (and I'm probably misinterpreting here) that you have a lot of respect for Arin's views on the subject, but bc he presented it a way you feel is inadequate you feel that it is bad and made a ~30 minute essay video to share it. People are allowed to have bad takes or disagreeing opinions, and we should address/call out incorrect or problematic ones. But I don't think that Arin's video qualifies for that based on what you present here

[@Vge21x]

The reason this one didn't work became clear with the Skyrim example. A is borderline patronizing. Like you feel the need to apologize and cushion the blow in advance. Arin is aware of what Zelda fanboys are like. You can't reason with them, they will stab you in the street because you said Ocarina bad. We've been making fun of them for years. Just keep going and instead appeal to people who might even like Ocarina, but are reasonable enough to also find joy in mocking its most annoying fans. It's coming from a place of passionate hatred, with enough substance to justify it. As a sidenote, I was always taught to completely avoid saying 'I think' or 'In my opinion' in any piece of journalism. Why would anyone bother engaging with something you're presenting with a 'just saying :)' note attached? DIfferent schools, but it's interesting you're placing so much importance on stated subjectivity, when the general rule, at least in legacy media, is to discard it.

[@LunamrathP]

I'm glad someone else thought that. Example A for the Skyrim critique was absolutely dreadful. I'm an adult, I don't need to be coddled before being presented an opinion.

[@zedoctor3724]

I KINDA agree with the central thesis of the video which is "don't be overly inflammatory to a disagreeing side if you want them to be receptive to your position..." but using the OOT Sequelitus video as an example is just weird lol. Like, at worst the jokes in that video are child's play compared to a lot of the pure vitriol coming out of gaming discussions nowadays. The joke in that video in particular where Ego throws an OOT fanboy out of a window is so over the top that I can see it either loosening people up out of the sheer ridiculousness of it, or angering the type of fanboy that never would have been receptive to the video in the first place. If you've watched any of his previous Sequelitus videos, you'd know coming into the OOT video that he has a track record of doing stuff like this. It's why the spiel you go on at 20:46 is so fucking weird lol. Anybody with even a smidgeon of familiarity with Egoraptor knows he's not doing that kinda stuff out of malice. Then you said that OOT is one of the most beloved games of all time and critiquing it is an upward battle, and then you show the like/dislike ratio being far more on the favorable end which sorta shows that his approach loosened up a lot of people to hear him out lol. And again, I think there is a HUGE problem in gaming discourse with this type of shit. But using that OOT video just ain't it. Hell, I'd even argue that people like Egoraptor understood something back then that a lot of people now don't think about often: "If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you."

[@Mr_Mimestamp]

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head here, I feel a similar way. It’s good, when making a review, to acknowledge that your opinion isn’t fact! But I can’t help but feel it’s a bit odd to use an example of someone who looks like they’re playing an eccentric character.

[@Bubble-Foam]

I feel like he’s avoiding talking about people in the modern sphere of gaming “discourse” because of how much he got harassed/brigaded by that one dude for his baldurs gate video. And that was without even attacking that guy specifically.

[@iheartblock3792]

I mean, he’s kinda just leapfrogging off of it for a discussion of his own opinion. The video isn’t really *about* the sequelitis vid.

[@alextifa2695]

isn’t the homunculus guy the person that wants to stick to their biases no matter what the critique is?

[@MBulteau]

Your Skyrim example illustrated something to me that may run counter to your suggestion that the people should be "given something." At least to me, "B" sounds like an earnest and genuine response erupting from you. "A" sounds like a layer of secondary processing that curtails the essence of what you feel in an attempt at diplomacy. "B" compelled me, while "A" remained tame, and easy to disconnect from. "A" didn't help me relate or understand your point of view any more than "B" did. Everything one says is always one's point of view, even if they express it as if it were objective. I think it is on the viewer to understand this. "B" immediately slams your feelings onto the table, revealing to me an intensity that *has* to come from an earnest point of view, and compelling me to listen because I now need to understand why this reaction exists. The way I see it, your "B" is his Waiting Rant. It bursts down the door and breaks everything. It's fantastic. I also very much like the time Ocarina of Time takes with things. I called it "the slow Zelda" as a kid, especially after I got Majora's Mask later. I should be able to allow my point of view to coexist with yours, no matter how contradictory, with absolutely no further requirement from your part, because this is your video. It is of no importance to me whether you understand my point of view, I've come here to listen to yours. But the homunculus isn't. The homunculus seems to me to represent a very real type of viewer who comes in immediately on the defensive, already conjuring arguments without listening. If a viewer who disagrees with the speaker on any level assumes themselves to be the homunculus depicted, that is 100% on said viewer. They have filled themselves with straw and stood in the corn field of their own volition. They have decided that they won't be convinced, and no amount of diplomacy will solve that. It ultimately doesn't matter what depicting the homunculus comes across. You may ask "Why immediately antagonize them?" Well, why not? Any intelligent viewer wouldn't stop at the "lizard brain," right? So why coddle the audience? Why preface an opinion with conciliatory caveats? What is the video about? What the viewers think, or what the speaker thinks? Also, the "olive branch" you talk about isn't an olive branch, it's a carrot on a stick. The music, the atmosphere, the art direction, none of that has anything to do with the topic of the video, because none of it leads to the conclusion. All of those things would have been hollow enticement, and frankly a bit condescending. The optics of said "olive branch" would come across to me as detrimental to the point, not conciliatory. Regardless, these are styles. Your style now, and his style then. I like both, but I especially like when you do not sugarcoat what you believe. "Fuck it, we ball" is great. Speak your mind and nothing more. The people spoil easy on niceties.

[@theunlawfullpenguin6855]

I feel both videos, Arin and Noodles, are products of their time. Great comment!

[@Aer0Alex]

Dude, very well put. I couldn't really put into words why I disagreed with Noodle on this one, but you did it very well. KZbin isn't a place for thoughtful discourse, especially 10 years ago. It is a place for entertainment and emotion. Watching a video about a guy tactfully trying to navigate all sides of the argument doesn't sound nearly as entertaining as a guy passionately ripping this beloved game to shreds. Perhaps I'm biased because I agree with Arin about OoT. But I feel like that if I did like OoT, I would be mature enough to still enjoy Arin's entertaining video. I wouldn't have seen myself as the homunculus, and therefore wouldn't have felt antagonized or insulted. No one should have to waste time in an attempt to appease the homunculus. They're the third party in every argument that contributes nothing.

[@NerdyKirikai]

I disagree, I understand what you mean by speaking your feelings, but I don’t think showing common decency and respect to your audience is coddling them. It’s just being a human being. Me personally, I can’t really relate to example B because I find the attitude to be very obnoxious and overly negative. I don’t take anything away from it in terms of unique perspective I could learn from, not really. The only thing it tells me is that this person is not very pleasant and I wouldn’t want to talk to them for very long. Example A I can relate to a lot more because this person is just being honest, even if I may not agree with them. But maybe this is just a case of how not everybody’s going to see eye to eye and how some people will react differently to how you talk to them. I don’t think someone being uncomfortable with being antagonized is wrong. The same way I don’t think it’s wrong that people relate to that kind of blunt wording. I am not one of those people sadly. There might’ve been a point in time where I was, but as I’ve gotten older, I’ve grown to cringe the overly negative and cynical mindset a lot of people have when reviewing media and I just want to hear someone speak honestly without being a dick about it.

[@Monomiknose]

This feels like a massive misread of the beginning joke. It clearly wasn't about OoT fans, it was directed towards people who heard him say he'll be critical of OoT and immediately decided they hate the whole video within the first like 30 seconds. Honestly it seems like you just have an aversion to mean spiritedness, and that's fine but I don't feel like that's universal criticism. I mean I wasn't a huge fan of your soft touch this whole video, it felt condescending to me, but that's just the vibe I got from a style someone else might read as more comfortable or personable. Every video will turn off someone, this just turned off you.

[@dires]

Yeah, for real. The whole spring board of this video is just a blatant misunderstanding or purposeful wrong reading

[@johannesviljoen9656]

a common misunderstanding must be accounted for, this is why people will put some text on screen or an interjection to clarify whats obvious to some is invisible to others

[@heymemesaucevichaelhere9595]

I feel like the biggest reason Sequelitis is still talked about today is very simple actually, people got to actually see videos of Arin actually playing video games and learned the man refuses to read any basic tutorial, or even a lot of story dialogue

[@muffinmonk]

In metal gear awesome snake dies to easily preventable deaths that were explained beforehand, even though he animates them after. Bro just doesn’t pay attention.

[@datguyuno98]

To be fair, most of the early years was just Arin and Dan (and Jon earlier) hanging out and playing games in the background to whatever they happen to be talking about

[@Rusty_Spy]

@@muffinmonkArin: how the hell was I supposed to figure that out?! Friend: Colonel tells you

[@charlieterry8506]

@@Rusty_Spy Literally its been there all along

[@marianav6213]

Right but playing for the show and playing in his free time may be different

[@felippesponton]

As someone who tried really hard to like Ocarina of Time but was never able to due to the game being fucking boring, I don't see the flawd narrative that Arin "disregards" his public in the first two minutes. He's talking specifically with haters that don't wanna hear anyone critique they favorite game and were already hating on the comments before the video even started. So I see fit, I laugh and I endorse.

[@Archbane493]

Don't make any one thing you enjoy your entire personality and you won't fall apart when that one thing is criticized.

[@ChromaLock]

i think arin just wanted to make a funny rant video about a game

[@VraccasVII]

Gotta be honest, this feels like it should have been a third of its length. The intro felt weird, and to borrow your words, quite meandering, but not in a way I enjoyed. I never felt like I had my time wasted by one of your videos before, but this one frequently had bits that made me think about why they were even in the video.

[@williamgreen2796]

I said it on someone else’s but this whole video is just “if you were nicer, people would be more receptive to your ideas and video”. But it’s done in this subtly angry way that makes noodle seem weird and off.

[@kyuubimadara]

I'm gonna be honest. Arin's video wasn't even that bad. I think you just took things way too personally. He was really not as condescending as you make him out to be. Ironic since you recommend Hbomberguy who is much more smug and condescending especially in his video against Matthewmatosis's DS2 critique.

[@Bowser27]

13:25 "I want you to imagine" I did. I was that person. I loved that game. I watched his video. And I am a million times a better person for doing so. With that video, I learned to approach things I love and care about with an air of criticism and questioning. To not just love something and idolize something unquestionably. And when I started doing that I realized some of the things I found "good" just weren't. Ocarina is still good, in my opinion, but I can now understand and pick out things that aren't well designed in it. Sure most of the things wrong with it are a product of the time it was made. But the fact is it cemented a trend and formula in Zelda that needed to change. Even the developers thought so after a while. Even with poorly aged jokes and venomous portrayal of critics to the video, it is an undeniably useful tool to help people learn how to add perspective to things and come at them with critical minds. It may be harsh and pointed at times, but it has a job to do and a point to make and does it well.

[@quarreneverett4767]

Yeah it was nice to get some pov instead of blind praise. In a way he was proven right. Look at what happened with windwaker and twilight princess

[@NotTommyDingus]

Completely agree with you. True fans can see the green fart plume omitting from their favorite media, but still enjoy it regardless of its stench

[@bensonprice4027]

I wish this comment was higher. Taking a critical look at the things you like/dislike helps you see things from a new perspective and learn something.

[@Elonyx.studios]

I think something noodle didn't bring up was how Erin's video single handedly changed the discourse around ocarina (arguably for the better) Before, the game was blindly and unquestionably lauded as a flawless masterpiece, and anyone that tried to even talk about flaws was chased off or disregarded as an idiot. After Seualitis,people started to actually acknowledge the imperfections of the game and have a more balanced discussion about it.

[@loutabu6161]

you can criticize oot without making a ridiculous strawman out of its fans which is mostly what the video takes issue with.

[@ZeeDDD65]

I think it's an adult skill to remember that when people speak it's just coming from their point of view, and exaggeration or hyperbole used for comedic or punchy effect is simply way more entertaining than plodding through "I think" and "I feel" tags stuck on every statement in a video. I get what Noodle is saying about being considerate of others, but I have no idea how egoraptor's video calls for this extensive of an essay over one strawman point that just made for silly entertainment for most viewers. It seems offensive to only those who lack the self-awareness to how toxic and annoying superfans can be as soon as their ADHD rejection dysphoria kicks in when someone isn't crazy about their favorite media or hyperfixation. I had to deal with it from most of my friends in middle and high school and it got super uncomfortable to voice my disinterest with things they would not shut up about.

[@JustSquigglez]

Ironically, Noodle ended up becoming that caricature in Arin's video. Like, dude why are you making a 30 minute video dissecting a 10 year old video that everyone on the Internet, including Arin, has moved on from? Arin himself has acknowledged NUMEROUS times over the years that he regrets how he presented his thoughts in that video. Seems kinda petty, ngl

[@rowanoak433]

You raise a fair point, but I think a part of this video is talking about broader media discussion as a whole. Yes, he tears into a ten-year-old video that was tailored to a certain audience, and maybe he's tearing a little too hard, but it applies to much more current discussions as well. There are a hundred discussions turning rancid via flame wars on the daily, but this is the strongest non-callout example available because people are familiar with it and there's very little that's coming to light about it. The point isn't "Arin did a bad ten years ago," it's "Maybe sound like you're actually considering other people when you're trying to start a thoughtful or critical conversation about things"

[@connorgibes709]

I wish I could like your comment more than once

[@ZeeDDD65]

@@rowanoak433 the point about being considerate of people who disagree is important. And I agree. But why it had to be egoraptor's video over basically the one strawman joke over and over is what felt overdone. The more Noodle emphasized how "bad" egoraptor's point was, the less I cared about it and I even began to see Noodle as the person who is so aggressively butthurt over the joke that I started to doubt their sense of perspective as to how ugly it is to try to share honest commentary on things with such rabid fanbases ready to decimate you for not voicing their opinion instead.

[@WokioWolfy]

​@rowanoak433 no... no he doesn't... its just Sequelitis. He never pointed at anything other than that video or explained it in general. He just went straight to one video as reference to his whole argument...

[@cameronpolite2199]

You said something at the end of this video that i think shows you missed the point of Arin makiung the joke at the begining of his video. When talking about other video essays you mention, they didnt need to try to reach out to a certain population of the audience. The people who arent likely to listen or change their mind. Which i think is exactly what Arin was doing. He wasnt making fun of all fans of OoT. But those who wouldn't watch the video and just post a hate comment.

[@Lute01]

Appreciate the effort for the video! I'm not really a huge fan of Arin or anything but I think the main thing you're missing about all this stuff is that being inflammatory is just fun/funny sometimes. A lot of the negativity in that sequelitus video is clearly meant to be comedic. I don't think it's that deep, basically. I'm not really sure what the thesis of this video is supposed to be other than "rude humor is bad and being nice is good", which I don't really disagree with really, but humor is all subjective, right? It's funny, when you were talking about the two examples of people talking about Skyrim, I found the second character to be much, much more interesting because they're clearly speaking from the heart and not pulling any punches. Again, nice video, not trying to be a shithead or anything, I like your stuff lol I just think people should make videos driven by whatever force they wanna be driven by, there is a place for the overly negative jester on the internet, they're usually more compelling and entertaining than people that are trying REALLY hard to not piss anyone off ever

[@emanuelemanuel7038]

Its his unique brand of humor and they do it nearly every episode. Yeah they poke jabs at us as a fan base but as a fanbase who is familiar with their work they know that is all satire and hyperbole for the sake of the bit. They are ALL about the BIT. We as a fanbase can relate and laugh at ourselves when he makes fun of certain behaviors we all exibit and we can all laugh about it together.

[@gabrielkimmel8358]

Couldn’t agree more 👍

[@MDragon141]

And its not like noodle is nice in many of his criticism videos. He legit does the same type of opening in the BG3 video, yet somehow misses what Arin was doing with his intro.

[@untitleduntitled6257]

I can see where you’re coming from, but there’s a big emphasis on intentions and results that don’t work if “nice things are nice” was the entire thesis. It’s tailored made to Arins Oot sequlitis where the intention was pretty clearly to be funny and discuss Oot’s flaws, not spark a discourse devoid of constructive criticism. Which is what happened. Arin went into the video with a goal that wasn’t met because of execution. Noodle gives criticism on his execution and why he didn’t succeed, and in this video it was because he was “too rude” - unintentionally rebuffing the people he was trying to reach. The point of the video isn’t “be less inflammatory” it’s “what are you trying to do and is what you just made actually doing it?”

[@tomdrawsstuffs6092]

holy shit Lute appearance

[@Aly_Cute]

It's insane watching a video about someone doing all of the same things that he's criticizing another video for, you need to consider the difference between "having x opinion = you are a disgusting creature" vs "pre-emptive arguing for an opinion without having an open mind = you are a disgusting creature" there was nothing ever saying that liking the game is bad or makes you a bad person, only being closed minded to the idea of critically analyzing it.

[@ParadoxicalThird]

Given how insanely toxic noodle has become on social media I would honestly expect this type of content to slowly become his main content/bread and butter. It seems pretty clear to me that at some point he swapped to seeing his channel as a way he could work out the bugbears in his brain and yell at people he doesn't like, and that's become more and more common in the last 2ish years.

[@emanuelemanuel7038]

Its been so long now and he has mentioned that he would absolutely have done things differently. I think this was just before everyone was familiar with Arins unique brand of humor. He employs hyperbole and humor that feels directed but unless you are familiar with their work, you should know he only does that as fact a form of self deprecating humor. He insults people who act outrageous with their opinions online because he is doing exactly that, and knows that would be him if he were on the other side. He is aware of his position, aware that there is a toxic portion of the fanbase, and aware that like himself they are passionate about something so much that a heated argument is likley to happen. Been a fan of them for years and this is just their style and humor. I agree it doesnt land with most but i doubt they were trying to cater to a broad audience back then because they have yet to now. They do trends like years late and never cave to public opinion on their show because they, like the rest of the fanbase know everything is satire FULL of hyperbole(insert subway bit here). They know their fan base and do the things they do and make the jokes they make because they know THEIR audience will get the irony and not take things litteraly or to heart. Watching this now just feels like an early less developed form of the humor we enjoy on the channel today!

[@camurai_00]

You make a lot of solid points. But the bit about the start of the OoT vid, kindof only warranted if you're ready to take it personally...

[@hizakikentai]

All respect here, I think this kind of tone policing really ignores the responsibility that people have to properly digest videos that are critical of things they like. If I were an ocarina fan I might be offended by this video more than Arin’s simply because you’re consistently implying that fans of it aren’t able to rationalize in their head that this wasn’t a critique on them individually. I mean I could be wrong but the whole fat guy at the beginning always represented real closed minded people and not just the regular fans of the game, it’s like “Yeah! If they’re not willing to hear you out they shouldn’t even be here!” At least in my head. Saying that any critique on a thing becomes a black and white battle of guy who don’t like and guy who do like is in itself kinda reductive.

[@JelliThePilot]

not everyone is gonna be smart enough or emotionally mature enough to realize that strawman =/= literal representation of themselves though, especially not like, a decade ago or whenever tf that vid dropped. what you're saying just feels like the whole "grrr why cant anyone take a wildly offensive and unfounded JOKE these days" wrapped up in more emotionally intelligent language

[@Bashfluff]

​@@JelliThePilot You can't just say that every time someone gets offended, it's justified. That's dumb. Hell, I can just say, "Your comment offended me! You're equating me to a bunch of edgy comedians selling transphobia under the guise of jokes!" and suddenly you're the bad guy, here. Communication isn't just on the speaker. If the speaker is careless, he can be misinterpreted, but that doesn't mean every misinterpretation is the speaker's fault. Sometimes the listener is to blame for not trying to interpret the speaker accurately. There is no non-transphobic explanation for the edgy jokes comedians make. That's what they are. But people should never be blamed for an audience's wrong interpretation, if a statement is communicated well. And it was. Your argument was just, "Well, people are too dumb to understand that, and that's Egoraptor's fault. He should have known people are stupid and catered to the stupids."

[@JelliThePilot]

@Bashfluff i mean, yeah, that's true. i just feel that starting an argument or conversation off with "yo fuck you and listen up" would naturally lead to some receivers hearing that and reacting impulsively; even if the points made are valid. the responsibility is still on the viewer to not get offended, but its the organization of the argument thats the real killer in this specific instance (in my opinion; but i'm open to new ideas)

[@hizakikentai]

@@JelliThePilot I mean sure in a vacuum that makes sense but when that’s not what he literally said if you interpret it like that, that’s still on you

[@omnisel]

But it did cause a huge negative reaction. That already happened and is self-evident. Your argument falls apart when compared to actual reality, where your argument has already been proven wrong. Those people have, do, and will always exist. The point of the video is how to handle topics that a lot of people have charged emotional feelings over and how to talk about it maturely and diplomatically. You might not have strong feelings about OoT, but I'm sure there's some topic you have strong feelings over, that if somebody ranted about in a way you saw as unhinged and unjustified, you too would reject it - maybe you wouldn't make a fuss in the comment section, but they would have alienated you and you would have rejected their arguments. Everyone loves logos, but ethos and pathos are just as important in argumentation.

[@cobalttj6356]

There is literally no way that KZbin comments are restrained enough to not talk shit about Arin. But I will say this, from 10 years of following his stuff, he has really grown as a person and sequelitis isn't a good representation of him as a person anymore. He's done some amazing things, making his friends dreams come true and helping others get off the ground. He is a genuine person that just happens to have some strong opinions about things, mostly video games, but he's honestly one of the best content creators to grace the internet.

[@TheGhostThatWas]

Yeah in the modern age him saying Arin was controversial really confused me since I had no idea what he was talking about. just know he's the game grumps guy

[@apollofell3925]

I've seen plenty of people take shots at his onscreen persona or his handling of some drama from years back, but never anything to make me think he's unethical or abusive. I really do not understand the hate.

[@DestroyIhosh]

@@apollofell3925 I was actually going to ask why the hate? Cause I´ve seen people who hate his guts and I actually thought it was for something serious but no, is just stupid internet stuff. He is actually a good person, and not a pedo, racist or some shit like a lot of other youtubers :S

[@tylociraptor8131]

@@DestroyIhosh There was a situation between him and an old colleague, Oney of Oneyplays (Chris O'Neill)... Arin had basically said that a video about 'storytime' animators was hurtful and in bad taste, and Oney talked shit over it, due to Arin's previous 'edgy' personality. The guy definitely had his edgy teen years, but he's grown out of it, unlike Oney... and that's me saying as a person who enjoys Oney's humour as well!

[@aidanfriedfeld8889]

@@TheGhostThatWasyou’d be surprised. I’ve been following him since his early days of animation. The controversy mostly stems from the people that don’t like that he chose to better himself as a person overtime. Genuinely most of the complaints I see about arin aren’t from edgy things he may have said 15 years ago and more so come from the fact that he doesn’t say that edgy stuff anymore. Basically people don’t like that arin matured as a person overtime, started focusing on things like game grumps and making more IRL style content with Dan and so on. I really enjoyed sequelitis, I loved his old egoraptor animations, I really enjoyed both the jontron era, early dan era with Barry and Ross, and the current era with the 10MPH and such. It’s been really cool to see arin become a more positive person and I think it’s wild that that’s the controversy. He became more positive and people don’t like it.

[@Vanity0666]

The key problem that I am seeing that isn't being mentioned is that people are using consumer products as an anchor point for their personality and development of identity instead of developing that from within, leading to situations where criticism of a product is equivalent to a personal attack. Being a "die hard fan of Ocarina of Time" should not be a defining aspect of your character as a human being. The emotional state of other people is not the responsibility of the critic to control. The critics responsibility is to deliver criticism, and the viewers responsibility is to determine whether or not that criticism is valid or invalid, on a personal level, based on personal experience and taste. It is not the responsibility of the viewer to publicly defend the product being critiqued as if they were personally being put on trial. It's the most pure example of virtue signalling in the most negative possible sense. Using consumer products as a means to extol personal virtue is proof of the sheer level of exploitability and lack of critical faculties present in a given individual. Acknowledging an opposing viewpoint as valid is a necessary component of persuasion, but if the goal of the critique is not persuasion rather than simply stating personal opinion and philosophy on design (which is literally what Sequelitis as a series was) then it is not a necessary or desirable aspect to contain in an otherwise objective critique. If your argument is that alienating a segment of your audience that you actively dislike and want to be rid of is a negative thing, I really couldn't disagree more. By making those people immediately fuck off you save yourself the trouble of having to determine whether their arguments are being made in good faith rather than simply running defense for a bruised ego. If anything, it is a preemptive act of self-care rather than fostering a community which exists only to piss you off. Telling these people that they are not welcome in the conversation is a completely valid way of handling what will otherwise become a veritable pit of snakes at the exact second they are given anything that they personally disagree with. KZbin as a platform was a completely different place when these videos were shown and applying the modern algorithmically generated feeds that exist to a time in which they did not exist is not a strong argument to make. Back then, any video that was getting viewed was shotgunned into the top spot of the feed for every single person who was using the platform, whether they personally wanted to see it or not. It's not a matter of Arin attempting to specifically target his own cultivated and personalized audience based on a statistical viewership ratio that was delivered to him, it was his response to the millions upon millions of people who were delivered the content based on his channel's popularity rating rather than the data driven statistical niches and interest groups that exist today.

[@RePorpoised]

The thing is, I don’t think I’ve ever seen that really work effectively. You can’t consistently shunt off an entire sector of the viewerbase, especially in a algorithmical recommendation-based system like youtube’s that will kill your recommendations if you do so. Being negative to your opponents, all it does is plug up the comment section with disagreements. I’ve seen it constantly in youtube videos all across different interests. The point noodle is making feels quite pointed towards towards essays that have taken to doing this from emulating other’s styles, without deeply considering how it impacts the clarity of the message they’re trying to convey.

[@InsertFunnyThingHere]

I think it's worth noting that a decent amount of the time (specially on the internet) harsh criticisms of a piece of media very often end up implicitly or straight up explicitly being also partially insults to the people that enjoy it, so while the people that take it as an insult when a piece of media they like is criticized should probably just get used to it and grow thicker skin I can't really blame them for being a bit on the defensive or trying to give counterpoints to opinions they disagree with (specially on the internet since opinions spread like wildfire the second one person with a big and respected enough platform shares it).

[@iheartblock3792]

Honestly this is by far the best criticism of his point, even if I (partially) disagree.

[@thenerdlet3171]

aw i love this video, noodle. there's a lot of analysis online about situations that invoke these unspoken rules of morality and good vs evil, narrative constructs etc etc. Videos analyzing the rules themselves are so important and less common than they should be. i did learn something, thank you.

[@everest5718]

You made me realize I was kind of doing this on Reddit, being too inflammatory to my opposition, because people on there tend to be hostile so I started also being a little hostile when discussing things. Thanks for the unintentional reality check 👍 I’ll try to stop that.

[@jimmyjenkins1907]

Its too late to change, spiral into criminality.

[@angelreader4564]

This has been repeated to me almost verbatim from other reddit users. After the latest reddit controversy, an online nerd group I’m a part of suddenly became flooded with former reddit users. They started out being super hostile when talking about our silly nerd stuff before eventually realizing they didn’t have to be. I actually got a sincere apology from a guy when I’m called him out on this. I think feeding off hostility legitimately affects how people view others.

[@Bucket-of-Bees]

Best advice ..get off reddit

[@zerentheunskilled]

@@Bucket-of-Bees Deleting my account there was one of the healthiest things I've ever done for myself.

[@aeroracer4875]

@@Bucket-of-BeesFor real. I barely use that to discuss anything.

[@pentbot]

I am reminded of a segment that takes place in MandaloreGaming's video on Star Citizen (starting at [21:05 of that video]) which highlights the difference between how a Star Citizen backer/player complains about about a gun's balance, vs a fan of /any other game/ doing the same, and how for the former, there is this whole song and dance that has to be done to ingratiate yourself as *one of the group* before you are able to critique a thing. "Yeah Arin, you made some really good points about this Zelda entry, but I need you to temper your "grumpy" persona for a bit so that you can get the nostalgic fans of this game on your side - to give them the equipment needed to be able to /handle/ this truth." I imagine this was Arin's way to either cut through the uncritical tongue-bathing that OoT gets from people who haven't gone back and played it for decades, to give more contrast to the occasions in the video where he is more earnest, or to make the video more engaging. He doesn't want to be entertaining critique from people that didn't watch the video, so yeah, piss those people off - made it to the end, let me have it. Why am I writing this and why do I feel like I've missed the point? Is missing the point meant to be the purpose of *this* video?

[@elijahcarson89]

This doesn’t really feel like that big of a deal, I mean it doesn’t seem like he meant for it to be aggressive? Seems more like a joke about how some people comment super aggressively. Idk it was also 10 years ago, maybe his opinion is different now?

[@theisaackielofproject3973]

The absolute excitement I get when ever you drop a video is beyond measure.

[@Dat_Guys_Wise]

Man I love every video you post. Why did you spend so much time and energy…on this?

[@SunriseGirl]

Litterally...

[@RenzoMorini_857]

yes, the video is a weird fixation on something long past, it could have been a community post

[@embr54]

Hard disagree on a lot of stuff in this but I respect your opinions and the effort that went into the video.

[@aa-tx7th]

nah hes just plain wrong on almost everything lol you dont HAVE to respect people's dogwater opinions either. thats how you get psychos like trump, putin and netanyahu elected to power and how you get vulnerable groups of people hurt nutcases and @ssholes like this noodle guy (hes just an @sshole btw not a nutcase im using nutcase for the trumps and netanyahus of the world) dont deserve respect, they deserve ostracization and to be constantly challenged and banned from having access to the public ear and eye.

[@Namisar]

I am so glad you made this video - not complaining about it at all - but I find it incredibly funny that we are STILL ARGUING ABOUT SEQUELITIS! That shit came out the same year The Lego Movie did. If it were a child it would be starting the 5th grade.

[@MarcosGame-f6m]

where are y'all arguing about this video? I literally had never heard of it! also holy shit the lego movie was 10 years ago

[@coopertaunt]

...The LEGO Movie is how old?😶😦😧😫

[@mrjack3855]

Its been 10 years ☹️

[@brisco1997]

I feel like using examples of people succeeding long after Erin failed is a false equivalent. It's cliché but I feel like it was somewhat of a different time back then he didn't have any good examples.