Something Sinister is Happening in the Labour Party | Aaron Bastani meets Len McCluskey | Downstream

Known for his steadfast support of Jeremy Corbyn whilst heading up the biggest private sector union in the country, today's guest has a uniquely intimate knowledge of both Labour Party politics and the organised labour movement. Aaron Bastani speaks to Len McCluskey.
Buy Len's new book 'Always Red' here:
orbooks.com/catalog/always-red/
Contents:
00:00 - Intro
01:25 - Political Beginnings
04:54 - Thatcher and the 80s
13:00 - Neil Kinnock
14:48 - New Labour & Tony Blair
19:48 - Best and Worst Labour MPs
21:09 - Mainstream Media
25:42 - Ed Milliband's Failures
30.35 - Falling out with Tom Watson
36:19 - Why Corbynism Failed
56:32 - Starmer's War on the Left
01:07:55 - Future Labour Leaders
01:11:54 - The State of Trade Unions
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[@annikagarratt4208]

I joined the Labour Party because of Corbyn and I left because of Starmer.

[@smithersjones7541]

Ditto. There are many more of us.

[@jsbart96]

Same Starmers labour revolts me

[@jacig2083]

I did the same. I think Keir Starmer is too far right and does not represent true Labour. If Jeremy Corbyn had been Prime Minister we the people would be far better off. I have much respect for Jeremy Corbyn an honest gentleman.

[@smithersjones7541]

@@jacig2083 totally agree. Internal sabotage and a hostile media deprived us of genuine and real change. Shame on them all.

[@fmj9346]

Same here.

[@kennethmarshall306]

It was very predictable that the BBC would treat Corbyn the way they did. I remember the way they treated Tony Benn

[@Linz0440]

I remember the way they treated the whole of Scotland in the run up to the indy ref. I also remember Tony Benn's view on Scottish indy - grab the oil and gaslight the people.

[@AreMullets4AustraliansOnly]

Tony Benn, another of the greatest politicians to come out of UK politics.

[@Linz0440]

@@AreMullets4AustraliansOnly He was particularly great when he sat on the McCrone report and punched down on Scotland, right?

[@richybatty234]

Tony Benn was human . You can't please all the people all of the time . He was still the best leader that Labour never had ...

[@Linz0440]

@@richybatty234 I was a huge fan until I discovered the truth. We're talking about gaslighting a whole nation here, not just not pleasing all the people all the time. He was the biggest disappointment in all of British politics.

[@XYZ-qu4yq]

I only voted for Starmer because he had committed himself to upholding 10 pledges and Jeremy Corbyn's legacy. After he won the contest, he backstabbed Corbyn. I'm feeling deceived, duped and betrayed. Starmer attempted to reduce democratic rights of LP members before the Conference. Under his leadesrship I left the Labour party like 200,000 other members.

[@jgmediting7770]

The labour right wanted you to leave. It only really works if unions leave too.

[@XYZ-qu4yq]

@@jgmediting7770 I know. I couldn't stay, anyway.

[@sailyousuf]

I understand why people are leaving I too contemplating to leave because I find Starmer just as a big liar as Boris he duped people with his lies to vote for him . Only reason I haven't left because I want to support a leftist candidate if Starmer is challenged at some point.

[@GodfreyMidgley]

@@sailyousuf me too. I actually did leave, briefly, but rejoined for that reason: to support the left-wing within the party

[@Dylanesque]

Starmer doesn't believe Israel practices apartheid. Fk him. That's him finished in my estimation.

[@photon-9551]

Starmer lied to a lot of labour members too.

[@Nick7901962]

No he didn’t

[@independentandfree6466]

​@@Nick7901962 Why do you ignore the evidence? Plenty out there.

[@Nick7901962]

@@independentandfree6466 cite 1

[@JimRitchieBhoy]

He did Nick he promised he would stand by his 10 pledges and has dumped every one. I’d call that lying myself .

[@Nick7901962]

@@JimRitchieBhoy when did he dump them? citations please

[@MahlerHolic1860]

That 75 minutes has confirmed my decision to never vote for the Labour right. What they have done to Jeremy Corbyn, Ken Loach etc is unforgivable.

[@SteveDorrans]

The alternative is eternal Tory government. How is that better? If your only choices are bad and worse, unfortunately you have to choose bad to prevent things being worse.

[@MarkHutchinson33]

@@SteveDorrans such a BS no substance argument. You do let others do themselves. Now jog on

[@MahlerHolic1860]

@@SteveDorrans Is a Party that is not there for the vulnerable better? Is a Party that wanted to go harder on welfare reform better? Is a Party that says everything about supporting hardworking families and nothing about the vulnerable better? I put all these issues to my Labour MP and got no response. Better? I'll pass.

[@SteveDorrans]

@@MarkHutchinson33 It has been proven time and again mate. Look at the past if you want to learn and enjoy your Tory dominated future if you don't. I'm a Green Party member but right now would advocate tactical voting for whoever can beat the current bunch of criminald and cultural vandals. This is first past the post we're talking about, not PR. In most constituencies there's usually not more than 2 possible winners. If we don't vote to defeat the tories they will be screwing us over forever.

[@SteveDorrans]

@@MahlerHolic1860 I would repeat they are bad but the Tories are worse. If your local lib dem or Green has a chance if winning try them instead but the tories will always be the worst option for working people. Do anything you can to stop them.

[@Loner-Wolf]

As hard as it is for me to say but I just cannot vote for Labour while Starmer is leader. He has shown that he is more interested in fighting the Left of the party rather than seriously take on the Tories. Labour under Starmer has become more authoritarian under Starmer than any other time in its history. Even the most reasonable criticism of say Israel is deemed as antisemitism with the result being expelled from the party.

[@SteveDorrans]

I don't want to either but we have to or else it is Tory government forever. Unless you are in a constituency where the lib dems or preferably the greens are the main opposition to the tories each vote not cast for Labour is unfortunately a vote cast for the robber barons currently crushing our country.

[@Kerys23a]

I'm voting labour but only because I'm in england if I was in Cymru then I would vote Plaid Cymru.

[@buckiegb]

Then it is you will continue to have a right wing government that will continually destroy workers rights and the very foundations of democracy. Wise the fuck up, cause you can change nothing if you are not in government, simples!

[@SteveDorrans]

@Israel Hands Yeah, that was done by the wealthy and powerful. Probably Rees-Mogg. Great analysis bro 👏

[@Kerys23a]

@@sootica-sidhe the only viable opposition in my town is labour

[@acafellapoet5620]

The media made this guy out to be a brash, aggressive, bully but he’s passionate, gentle, and straightforward. The power they have to shape opinion is insane.

[@xHaniffax]

So just like what they did to Corbyn...

[@englishsteve1465]

@@xHaniffax The smear jobs were worse with Corbyn. Although he did walk into a lot of them and made it worse for himself with a complete lack of cunning and stategy I hadn't expected tbh.

[@Romulus980]

Same was perceived about Jeremy Corbyn yet he split opinion among people who worked with him...

[@BoomBraids]

Seems to me the 'Left', need to use some of the 'tools' that rabid right wingers use, to be effective. Lovely man, low energy!

[@jamesjohnson2394]

Capitalist state propaganda. The "free press" is just ruling class media

[@bandolero5068]

Keith’s lack of morals is matched only by his lack of spine.

[@kr050]

I completely disagree. It is matched by his lack of policies on anything.

[@blue47er]

@@kr050 Cab we all agree about Starmer's spineless vacuiity?

[@andym6256]

Who is Keith?

[@bradbell4022]

@@andym6256 He's a lot like Kier, but not a socialist. And he can't even play guitar

[@lamueldagon7618]

@@Crashawsome Stop being silly, you understand what he means

[@eleanorland3176]

Excellent interview. I agree with Len, there is something sinister about the Starmer project, he isn't a member of the Trilateral Commision for nothing

[@wobblyjack7527]

Eleanor, spot on.

[@rubylescott8772]

The word sinister resonated with me. I'm sure he's right.

[@GlasgowGallus]

Len McLuskey, an absolute legend, even among the rapidly diminishing numbers of us Glasgow lefties. His honesty and utter commitment to the working masses puts modern politicians, and many from his own generation, to shame... A disappearing breed. 👍🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@julianshepherd2038]

There's lefties in Glasgow but Labour isn't trusted nor see as capable.

[@lyndonbrown6999]

And how many times have the working masses had meals out at The IVY in London? How many have house worth hundreds of thousands of pounds. He is what he is A TORY in lefty clothing!!

[@GlasgowGallus]

@@lyndonbrown6999 Easy chief, a wee posting of my, and others, experience of him. Not worth getting yer tights in a twist. Be well man... 👍🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@Berry-fr5wj]

Why is Labour dead in Scotland , because , they are the tory b team

[@GlasgowGallus]

@@Berry-fr5wj They're dead everywhere chief, for the reason you say: Tories 2.0. Any true Labour adherents are the exception rather than the rule. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿👍

[@foppo100]

The way Jeremy Corbyn was treated did it for me.Labour is just an second class Tory party no backbone.Tony Benn was one of my favorite genuine politician Britain ever had.He should have been the leader.John Smith the same mould he died unfortunately.I grew up in the sixties came to this country from the Netherlands when I was 18.Iam 72 now.I never understood the British logic of having right wing parties running the show.Tony Blair was a good Tory example.Working class people voting for people who don't care for them.A terrible biased press mainstream media .

[@peterh1353]

Tony Benn the biggest political cult this country has ever had. Wet dream was everything state controlled - which I never thought even Benn really wanted other than it would be Benn doing the controlling! Party of one - and that is what most people like about him.

[@nat75kemp]

Another hidden reply🤔

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

Corbyn is no John Smith.

[@patcampton9799]

Excellent interview. Nice to hear Len without media hysteria. I too have stopped reading the Guardian after doing so since the 70s. The Corbyn coverage finished it for me.

[@darkmagician8179]

It's so good to hear these villainous figures within the Labour Party being exposed. Can't wait to see the Forde Report too.

[@danteshydratshirt2360]

now in Sept 2022 it has happened and left centrist (Starmer supporting) youtubers ignored it burying their heads in the sand and it was overshadowed by Johnsons resignation

[@MomMom-cq3ih]

There is much in The Forde Report Smarmer wants to keep hidden. Remember how he dragged his feet. The truth was that AS WAS weaponised for political reasons. Brexit was also Smarmers door into the Leadership. This is where Jeremy made a fatal mistake!!!!!!!

[@scogginsscoggins]

A very clear and articulate interview which is rare these days unfortunately. Len McLuskey is an inspirational character and is amazingly humble and calm when answering the questions. Bravo.

[@johnpeelfanclub3494]

That's because he has nothing to hide - it shows, doesn't it - when compared to any stripe of politician these days.

[@xvsupremacy7190]

Because he is wholesome and was never mixed up in Labour PIE 🥧, Starmer must never be PM .

[@Berry-fr5wj]

McCluskey wittered on about establishment and his book, the paradox is, he too is the establishment

[@pamplemouse5]

@@Berry-fr5wj by your rationale, you're the establishment too, because you've written something public. Anyway, ever heard of critiquing something you know a lot about? What a comment.

[@Berry-fr5wj]

@@pamplemouse5 opinions are like r soles , everyone has one a bit like your pompus one

[@lycantropist]

Corbyn is worth 100 keith's

[@Cyclone718]

Unfair to Corbyn as imo Starmer is worthless, whereas Corbyn is priceless.

[@danemunro2753]

And the rest. Starmer isn't even a human being compared to JC. His initials say everything.

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

@@Cyclone718Shouldn’t that be the other way round?

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

@@danemunro2753Sir Keir Starmer is decisive for taking action on anti-Semitism, Corbyn was spineless.

[@Cyclone718]

@@stevenpaulgoulding nope

[@nigelbaker2717]

Excellent interview! Stand as candidate for parliament Len, would make a much better leader of the Labour Party than Kier.

[@jimviv6030]

what a joke!

[@maxonion7604]

We need a new party as a nation

[@mrsjudetheobscure]

@@jimviv6030 explain?

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

@nigelbaker2717: Do you really want the Tories to stay in power for decades?

[@mrcaramelman4508]

Mr McLuskey is jut the sort of person who should be in government. Someone with experiance, who knows hardship and therefore knows freedom.

[@michaelfeeney1821]

Brilliant man we need more men and women like him in the trade union movement and in the Labour Party all the best len

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

We need more men and women like Jack Jones in the trade union movement instead of the likes of McClusky.

[@tomg268]

Len is so right - I was one of those Labour members who was a Corbynite and also pro remain, but at the time I was unsure about the peoples vote - I supported it as I wanted to remain, but if Labour had taken a soft leave approach without a peoples vote then I’d have gone along with that, because nationalising utilities, abolishing tuition fees, and green industrial Revolution were much more important to me than Brexit. Now I’m not a Labour member anymore, and not sure if I’ll even vote for them…

[@douglasmacari8707]

I agree. The same for me - a Remainer, of course, but willing to accept the result and see a Corbyn-led labour bring a soft Brexit for the sake of democracy. Now also no longer a Labour member (having been for most of my life) but clear that I can never vote labour again unless and until the treachery and corruption now at the heart of the party is acknowledged, those responsible purged and party democracy restored.

[@duckweedy]

Yes I wanted Remain but by the time of election it was too far down the road to stick with Remain. I would have settled for a soft slow brexit.

[@carolwilcox7816]

I voted Leave twice but even I was convinced that the mood in the country had changed and a 2nd ref would be popular. What a fool. Shame Private Eye didn't expose who was funding and by how much the People's Vote campaign until after it was all over. Len's right, it was the Brexit Party that won it for the tories. It was clear from the start that they would only stand candidates in Labour seats.

[@tomg268]

@@Jeannelawes obviously it’s up to your own conscience- personally I’m planning on waiting to see if my local Labour candidate is a leftie- if they are, I’ll vote for them, if they’re a blairite, I’ll vote Green.

[@seanbirkett4951]

Snap!

[@muireann9763]

Fascinating interview - absolutely by far the best most insightful discussion on the Labour Party thus far, moreover as Len Mc Cluskey is key to what has happened within the Political landscape of this country since the demise of the Miners Strike, more like these please

[@ChristisLord7777]

There should be trigger warnings on this video. 2017 and 2019 were the worst moments ever when we were undermined by the right of the party. The party is fighting for breath. Thank God for people like Len. Our movement still has life.

[@barryk00da]

Save the trigger warnings for abuse victims and PTSD sufferers.

[@TheDandonian]

@@barryk00da Those of us who were passionate about Corbyn and the fact that we finally had a politician who stood for decency and the many, it was incredibly depressing to see that beaten by the scumbags who rule this country.

[@zippymufo9765]

@@TheDandonian You beat yourselves. The right doesn't have to lift a finger when the left is so dysfunctional and inbred and incapable of understanding how non-aligned voters see them. Same shit show over and over.

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

@@TheDandonianCorbyn was beaten because he was unelectable.

[@lotustree8210]

What a gem of an interview. Bleak though some of the history might be, what shines through are immortal principles , values that are are a guiding light, illuminating the way regardless of where we find ourselves. . People like Len remind me of the inexhaustible nourishment within when we tap into the source. Something that keeps us going regardless... What a good interviewer Aaron is. I felt nourished and affirmed by this interview. The resonance of clarity is deeply felt. Thank you for this interview Novara. 👏🏾👏🏾

[@Sotangy247]

Love this interview!!! So insightful

[@spoonfulofdreams]

He lost me when he made apologies for Angela Raynor and then talked about the left like our destiny is inextricably linked with the Labour Party. Unfortunately many of us who campaigned in 2017 have no intention of ever working with Labour again. We've learned from history.

[@peterh1353]

If the Labour Party isn't for you by all means leave. But we need an elected left wing government and they are the only game in town. Why not join the Greens - you can pretend they are anything you want. They will help you with this delusion.

[@spoonfulofdreams]

@@peterh1353 Labour will give us a centrist government. There isn't a credible left party in the UK. I don't know where it's going to come from but our only hope is for ordinary people to refuse to put up with the political establishment which destroyed our democracy. Where is the evidence that the Labour Party will do anything other than maintain the status quo?

[@brianparrish8011]

Been a labour voter all my live. But i cannot vote for the back stabbing party.still a union member

[@silondon9010]

Many British Working class people don't trust labour with immigration, if were honest

[@peterh1353]

Another fossil who doesn't want Labour anywhere near power because it won't be perfect!

[@dwc1964]

I was introduced to left-wing activism via the anti-apartheid movement in the San Francisco Bay Area, which was kicked off in 1984 when the ILWU did a hot-cargo action against South African cargo for 11 days until forced by a judge to stop the action. That led to lots of other things, including at UC Berkeley which I walked through on my way between my apartment and the BART (Tube) station to my job. I ended up getting involved in that stuff - and in 1986 we got a tip-off about a ship coming in with South African cargo and set up our own picket line to stop it. The courts had an injunction against the union but they couldn't stop _us_ and we gave the union an excuse not to unload the ship. It worked for 2 days - the second day we were cleared out - but that was enough. That was the last time South African cargo was sent to the Bay Area until apartheid fell. It's easy to feel like nothing you do really makes a difference, but when Nelson Mandela came to the Oakland Coliseum to thank us, those feelings disappeared. The tactic of setting up a community picket in support of a longshore boycott, where the union itself would be legally enjoined from doing so themselves, has been one of my favorites ever since. Including - and this is where it's relevant here - when we blocked the *_Neptune Jade_* in solidarity with the Liverpool dockers, as part of an international effort that sent it across the Pacific before it was unloaded.

[@Peter-cz8hx]

Longshormen in Canada and America were predominately run by Hells Angles, or Mafia types, so no arguing too much with these people.

[@dwc1964]

@@Peter-cz8hx the mafia ran the East Coast ports; on the West Coast (at least in the San Francisco Bay Area) they were run by leftists (including communists) - the bosses much preferred the former as they were easier to "make a deal" with and far less likely to mobilize (such as in 1934)

[@BunyanaRed1958]

Great interview that. Very well conducted by Aaron. He let Len speak. I enjoyed it.

[@philh2631]

What annoys me about Brexit is Starmer is now able to say 'oh well, it's done now and we must move on" where is the people vote now? So frustrating that it affected Corbyns leadership so much

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

More and more people now want Britain to return to the EU.

[@manwithnoname408]

Great interview. To my fellow viewers in the nation when someone tries to take control of what belongs to us the genuine caring people we shouldn’t become disheartened and let go …….so that they can achieve their sinister agendas. Unfortunately the main stream media & majority of the politicians are using the cloak of democracy to keep us in a state of subjugation with basic manipulating benefits to keep us divided .

[@James-mb3je]

Try to take solace in the fact that politics moves inexorably left over time. The left won an end to child labour, a 40hr work week, weekends off, paid leave, the NHS and more besides. These are now accepted positions on the right. Now for depression: the current climate crisis is so desperate that the rate of change means billions of deaths. Geography is our friend here, we in the UK might get off lightly here 🤞

[@ellastarrr1st149]

We are told by Mps we are living in democracy and people believe it.

[@fuckbankers]

The Guardian also known as the Guardian of the status quo.

[@barni42]

In my mind 2017 election was won by labour, the establishment couldn’t let them have it. Corbyn was the only leader who was not controlled and therefore was doomed to fail. Many of he manifesto ideas for 2019 were radical and would have finally given the people the power over their lives and this couldn’t happen.

[@colourguru]

Learn to count. Corbyn did not win enough seats against a PM with zero campaign skills.

[@zippymufo9765]

You lost. Voters got over their Corbyn honeymoon once they saw he was a empty suit propped up by sycophants like Milne. I know it has to be humiliating for the left to get so much support in 2017 and then lose it in 2019.

[@philoktoday]

Listening to this is a breath of fresh air - great interview. Len says it how it is and was - agreed with everything he said - astute, honest, intelligent. The BBC should be ashamed of itself on the handling of J.C. - disgusting to watch time and time again the constant put downs and the lack of shutting up the numerous right wing guests spurting out their blatant lies. The Andrew Marr's and Laura Keunssberg's of this world - urghhhhh!!!!!

[@helenspedding-lowe5469]

I've always loved Len McCluskey, but after this interview I love him even more. He totally encapsulates my kind of left wing ( Scouse!) Socialism. Thank you for this very interesting and very honest interview!

[@carolwilcox7816]

Ditto

[@peterh1353]

Does that include the Militant Tendency wrecking ball that he was a big cheerleader of?

[@TheLastSongbird124]

I was born on the Liverpool docklands in 1951 and by 1975 you could see the unions slowly being strangled. Politics was determined to decimate unions and globalism was beginning and showing itself to be no friend of sovereign nations and their working classes. My solution was a selfish one, went to Australia and never returned!

[@annesaunders3851]

And now live under a right wing Prime Minister. Neoliberalism is the problem worldwide.

[@TheLastSongbird124]

@Kate Brown it seemed much better in 1977 when I arrived... don't know about now been living in Europe (not UK) since 2006.

[@helenspedding-lowe5469]

I was born in 1950 and my dad was a Liverpool docker too. He was in TGWU . The dockers were treated very badly, and the TGWU didn't fight very hard, however I am in Unite, as I am a retired lipreading teacher, and they are an excellent union. Hope Australia is treating you well, hugs xxx

[@TheLastSongbird124]

@@helenspedding-lowe5469 had an amazing 40 years in Aus, live in EU now. Hope your retirement is treating you well:)

[@peterh1353]

Hope you have a better life there - invite the other dreamers to join you.

[@billywoodward584]

I can't think of a single good thing to say about New Labour and Tony Blair, even if you consider New Labour replaced the Conservative Government, my friends and colleagues looked forward to a time without Thatcherism and a Conservative Government, but we soon realised we couldn't trust Tony Blair when he invited Margaret Thatcher as his guest to number 10, the man who Margaret Thatcher once said was her greatest political achievement.

[@danteshydratshirt2360]

a few god laws were introduced - minimum wage and respecting the ECHR bit other than that Blairs "reign" was just a continuation of Tory policies

[@ahmd-mi9964]

Kier Starmer is a masterclass backstabber

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

Sir Keir Starmer expelled Corbyn for refusing to apologise for allowing anti-Semitism into the Labour Party and doing nothing to stamp it out.

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

Sir Keir Starmer expelled Jeremy Corbyn for allowing anti-Semitism into the Labour Party and refusing to apologise for doing nothing to stop it.

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

Jeremy Corbyn allowed anti-Semitism in Labour and did nothing to stamp it out. Sir Keir Starmer admirably called out anti-Semitism in Labour and took action.

[@ahmd-mi9964]

@@stevenpaulgoulding that's the biggest lie smear campaign in Labour history

[@ACHUNDOI]

Aaron as usual allows the guests to open up and reveal their true feelings in a relaxed manner. Allowing their true self too shine. Thanks Aaron you are a very skilled interviewer.

[@berny2120]

Excellent interview Aaron! Great insider insights into the past and the current political landscape! I totally agree with Len that the next couple of years are going to be crucial, both for the direction of the LP and the left in general! I believe KS is on a self destruct path and what emerges, is up for grabs!

[@lkm3s]

Thank you! Such a great episode!

[@cptgone]

Starmer strikes me as a hard, cynical man - only in it for himself. I gave him credit for years, but he keeps doing things that deeply disgust me. On the topic of modeling Labour after the US Dems: at least they try to end the war on people who enjoy/need cannabis. Socialism must be inclusive if it wants to survive (scapegoating common people works only for right wing parties).

[@stevesincock941]

Absolutely excellent interview. Many thanks. Best thing I have seen on this subject for a while.

[@hazelwray4184]

January 2018, in The New European, Alastair Campbell declared Macron: 'The Real Heir of Blair'. He claimed that Macron had the power to be the most impressive and impactful "progressive" leader in the world. Instead he's empowered the far-right amid a worsening malaise.

[@rubylescott8772]

I think we're going the way of the French. The two big parties have disappeared, and I think ours will too, after the next election.

[@maureennewman905]

@@rubylescott8772 Macron and Blair keep popping up though ,

[@artcenterjo]

Thank you for this great interview.

[@marthaglows1]

excellent and fascinating interview. thanks len and novara 👍

[@Nubianicia]

Brilliant man! Thank you.

[@MichaelFalveyTywardreath]

Excellent reporting, proper journalism, displaying the possibilities of the medium. Thank you and well done. There was however a ghost in the room that was not confronted particularly on the allegiances of various factions over Brexit,...the sylph of Nationalism. Kept me up well past my bedtime...Len speaks with mesmerizing clarity.

[@FBH991]

The problem with labour members on remain I think was how it was sold. Like, the case put for avoiding it by Len and Aaron here is far stronger than anything I recall from the time.

[@TheGameKat]

Great interview. Thanks for this.

[@hilaryporter7841]

This interview is dynamite. Len McCluskey has explained how the Labour Party has been captured by the corporate interests, so in effect apart from superficial features, there is little difference between Labour and the Tories. Socialism is being squeezed out and the interests of corporations come first. The First Past the Post system of voting renders the votes of millions of people as effectively not counted. The majority of the population is getting poorer and the minority rich running the show and farming the human resources, getting exponentially richer, leaving the bulk of the population up an ever more inpoverished cul-de-sac. I've been awed at how succinctly Len McCluskey has spelt out the history of what has happened within Labour and now ordinary people are feeling the results of all of this. They know they are being given the truth by Len McCluskey.

[@hilaryporter7841]

@chris kingsland No way, Tories are criminals pushing their criminality into the faces of the poor and the bereaved. I would like Starmer to explain how the 10 pledges became 10 porkies, I've always thought if I could hear some pretty good explanations from him, they would have to be very good, then a lot more people would give him a chance so that we could get these Tory criminals out.

[@theunknown1426]

100% on point mate......(starmer chasing after corporate donors like gold digger)

[@mariintheuk3131]

how can you trust Rayner after standing with Starmer?

[@grahamjohn678]

Good interview Novara. Spot on.

[@kennethmarshall306]

Excellent analysis

[@sheryla54]

I love his insight ❤️

[@carolwilcox7816]

Agree with Len about Chris Leslie (nastiest MP I ever encountered) and Rachel Reeves.

[@chrisrobinson860]

Brilliant, brilliant debate. Well done Aaron for making it a debate.👍

[@wildandbarefoot]

On MY labour membership card it says DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST PARTY . That is labour. Under starter it is neither socialist or democratic. A Barrister, starmer is ESTABLISHMENT. Somany have left the party in disappointed dismay. We Need them Back

[@danteshydratshirt2360]

is it even democratic or socialist any more?

[@SuckMyCurry]

This is a great interview.

[@taranehahmadi-parker1412]

Great stream 👍👍👍✊✊✊🌹

[@peterjones596]

Len is a living legend, his political astuteness is much missed and sorely needed. I'm politically fussy, and the only thing I disagree with him on is his Brexit stance. Yup, the EU is a bosses' club, make no mistake about that, but it's a bosses' club from countries like France, Germany and Spain where Unions have far more power and neoliberalism doesn't have such a strong hold, as it currently has in the UK. On a side note, I've found it really funny on several marches when I've heard Holly Johnson (singer of Frankie Goes To Hollywood) giving political speeches of a decidedly radical Left nature and thought "Blimey, go Holly", then later on seen it was Len! I swear, the two of them share the same spoken voice. Have they ever been seen in the same room together?

[@peterjones596]

@Ben Avery Can you tell me why? 😉 I've never heard Jimmy's spoken voice, but he always reminded me of a real-life Tintin.

[@matthewstone1362]

There's nothing that the EU gave us that we couldn't have ourselves, with the political and social will, of course.

[@peterjones596]

@@matthewstone1362 Ah, but under Tory rule, many of the things the EU gave us wouldn't have happened.. Eg, the funding and investment in both Irelands.. Also, how would we have got a trading deal with the largest bloc in the world and all the regulatory and other benefits that come with that..? How's Liz Truss' chasing around the world getting trading deals working out?

[@maryhuckaby2239]

The U.S. sanction war on Russia - which the neolibs in Europe and the U.K. are enthusiastically supporting - is going to destroy the labor unions in France, Germany and Spain, and deal a final blow to workers in the U.K. - along with massive loss of jobs, loss of manufacturing itself, loss of social welfare programs and loss of a decent standard of living. But it occurs to me what appears to be insane European/U.K. policy on this - cutting off their own much-needed gas and oil imports with Russia and other trade - is deliberate. It will break Europe as the standard by which others measure decent social and economic policy. For instance, Americans won't be able to cite Europe (& can't really cite the U.K. any more) as an example of successful social policy and, say, decry the abominable lack of medical care in the U.S. - millions suffering medical bankruptcy. Could this be one of the main purposes of the U.S. sanction war on Russia, to once and for all end true liberalism (of the Wilson and FDR kind)?

[@peterjones596]

@@maryhuckaby2239 Wow! You make a whole load of unconnected assumptions. Are you Q? From that drivel-pile, you must be. Let's get this straight, Putin is the ultimate Neoliberal, he 'offers' freedom and the vision of a 'new glorified Russia', much like Trump's MAGA campaign, but when you look closer, it's more of the same old story of rich getting richer, poor getting poorer and laws getting more oppressive. Hadn't you noticed?

[@amandajones6660]

Great Interview. Thanks

[@chrisbinch800]

Brilliant interview.

[@thefilthykevin4282]

Cannot wait for this!

[@akoustixx]

You know i was really enjoying this interview until 2/3 the way through, then i realised that i wasn't part of your discussion as i'm from Scotland, the brief comment *in Scotland it is a bit different* was very revealing. Is it because Scotland has pretty much cleansed itself of labour? that in itself should have been one of the biggest parts of this interview/discussion. Its as if you're ignoring the biggest elephant in labours problems. I'm an avid viewer of this channel and will continue to be as it's very informative,, but it;s starting to feel like i'm watching another countries politics. Would James Keir Hardie (That Scottish guy) be turning in his grave right now at how labour is treating his home country?

[@davidhull9510]

Wonderful

[@edgeland-7876]

Excellent

[@lkm3s]

YES! Sinister indeed! I thought the same thing of Tom. It doesn't smell right.

[@michelcharron4633]

The correct position for Socialists still in the Labour Party is to leave, and form a new Socialist Party that can give the working class a Socialist alternative, and voice. The period that we are in demands this, Socialism has disappeared from the Labour Party, doesn't even get a mention in their election literature or election broadcasts. Starmer's threat to expel anyone who claimed 'false equivalence' over the Ukraine, and to throw his weight behind the ruling class position, should signal the end.

[@sibutterworth6542]

Join the workers party. The new home of grass roots labour.

[@peterh1353]

The SWP have been around forever and getting the same amount of support forever. Go join them.

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

@@sibutterworth6542 A vote for the Workers Party will be a vote for the Tory Party.

[@sibutterworth6542]

@@stevenpaulgoulding not in Rochdale it wont

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

@@sibutterworth6542 A vote for the Workers Party will split the Labour vote in favour of the Tories.

[@Breadalbaneman]

Tremendous interview. Refreshing honesty. Not convinced he's right about Rayner and Burnham though?

[@stormytempest6521]

Not what he's made out to be.... you know man of the people! they never are.

[@kellymaguire7912]

great stuff.

[@Sanjaygupta01]

I'm a lefty but i can only think of one labour leader from the right of the party who was admired and loved by people like Tony Benn and Dennis skinner and that was John Smith

[@fordism.01]

good old Len

[@didyeaye2481]

Brilliant.

[@timbob1627]

How does a political nobody become labour leader and prime minister in seven years, he was chosen and is owned 100,%😮😮😮

[@fuckbankers]

Tony Benn was my hero too.

[@TheVanguardFighter]

please make more content about the labor movement in the UK and internationally!

[@maiqueashworth]

Very important to understand that narcissists and sociopaths are often extremely likeable and charming. It's not then ever an issue that people respond to charisma. It's only recently I've realised just how bad Tony Blair was. And as I understand it John Major initiated the gif Friday agreement.

[@DavidMorris1984]

I like these Downstream interviews and I hope there's a lot more of them. I've not always agreed with Len McCluskey and, at times, I thought he was a bit of a dinosaur. I heard what he had to say post 2019 and he just didn't seem to think that Corbyn was a factor. This irritated me. After this interview, it's shown a different side of him and I can see he admitted to being disappointed in the direction of the latter part of Corbyn's leadership. I can also totally appreciate that he felt lied to by Sir Keir - a big mistake that hasn't helped with Labour's funding issues and union support now. This interview was incredibly worthwhile.

[@coyharlingen]

Heartbreaking and terrifying

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

If McClusky kept getting his way.

[@dalianhaynes6402]

I'm a few mins behind but its the mandlesons and the blairs, it's a sick party atm

[@jhart976]

good stuff

[@gregmcgregor3829]

Len has exceptional insight. An astonishing intellect.

[@JimRitchieBhoy]

I was on strike as a young steelworker in 1980. We were out for 13 weeks, much longer than the government expected. I remember, for example, the attempt to have a general strike in support in Wales, undermined by the TUC and yes we were sold out by Bill Sirs, our General Secretary who ran away from the threat of imprisonment.

[@ArntsonVision]

An excellent interview and conversation with one glaring topic undiscussed. Not touching the use of "anti-Semitism" as a political weapon against Corbyn, leaves an "elephant in the room" feel. Given Aaron's past statements, I cannot help but feel that Aaron avoided it strategically. A shame.

[@paulharris8983]

Great interview. The missed opportunity of the Corbyn years still hurts.

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

The missed opportunity for another generation of Tory misrule.

[@all4one1forall36]

Len and Mick Lynch are true labour , and give working class a genuine voice. Starmer , stand aside and give us chance of challenging the Tories .

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

Mick Lynch is but McClusky isn’t.

[@patcampton9799]

Things are bad for many young people these days especially in London , but looking back even in the 60s and 70s, many of us rented or lived at home with parents until we married. Most property needed two people to buy a house when I married in 1974.

[@carolwilcox7816]

Me too (1973) but we didn't have people starving themselves to feed their kids, people sleeping on the streets, pensioners and the disabled frightened to turn on the heating - in the world's 5th richest country.

[@patcampton9799]

@@carolwilcox7816 I agree. It was a very different time .

[@patcampton9799]

@Kate Brown I agree also.

[@jaysomastandup]

agree with Len, the get a deal and campaign against it was ludicrous

[@yester9037]

Why dont people like kier and tony blair join the tories and let the labour party be a true left wing alternative.

[@PosterPeteTheBish]

Good idea, then Labour would never be in power again

[@huldaburgh]

Labour have never been in "Power" only ever in office - the ones always in power are billionaires one per cent rulers!@@PosterPeteTheBish

[@GlennLeinster]

Great show Aaron Len McClusky Brilliant

[@itsalwaystwentyfivetosixo.3805]

Such an exciting situation coming, the promise of a soft left in 2 years. OUR WORLD IS IN FIRE It's game over

[@shaneselfe6506]

this is really interesting, gonna have to keep this to watch again, the area i live is always either Lib-Dems or Tories but i think it will be going back to Lib-Dems next time i know i wont be voting Starmer i would rather see the Greens get in a pity Rebecca Long-Baily never won the leadership race because i would vote for her

[@miatrue98]

I so agree with you spot on 👍

[@shaneselfe6506]

@@miatrue98 1 thing i could never get my head around is why don't more people vote Green especially with the way its going these people who hold the power really need to be put out cant trust starmer and would the Lib-Dems prop up the Tories again, they will say no but then they would say when its here is we have to to keep the Tories in check, thats the sort of thing we should get to vote on again as well because a lot of voters might not want that to happen

[@miatrue98]

@@shaneselfe6506 LibDems are the second choice in many counties and after the last tory +LibDem coalition catastrophe the LibDems remember quite well how the tories blamed their bad policies and failures on the LibDems so I don't think that LibDem s will get in bed with the tories again. Greens are good but a third choice. And apparently Corbyn considers to establish his own party which will divide the Labour Party votes and still keep the tories in power unless if he considers to not put candidates for voting in the borderline constituencies so that they vote Labour (similar to what the brexit party did in 2019 they did not put their own candidates in some constituencies to strenghten the tory vote so that the electorate votes tory instead).

[@HarrysBar]

@@shaneselfe6506 It's because the Greens don't have anything to say about class.

[@peterh1353]

Greens - everything to everybody. One issue protest group who have no place in politics where heavy industry has to exist to make trains and cars.

[@OnlineEnglish-wl5rp]

Scargill was to blame and if the public sector unions had listened to Callaghan and not gone out on strike in the Winter of Discontent, Thatcher would never have won

[@facelessvaper]

insightful, sometimes we forgot history.

[@MrHousey36]

Great analysis here - it's good to remember that it wasn't all 'MSM killed Corbyn', that in fact there was a degree of indecision and a lack of good advice in the Corbyn camp over Brexit that allowed the right back in, the party split, and the political Hara-kiri that followed.

[@richarddyasonihc]

Probably the best & most in depth discussion I have yet seen regarding UK politics &. The Labour Party. Like Jeremy, Corbin, I3 have been a suspended for expressing unpopular opinions (and stupidly putting them in an em), like Jeremy, I have been de-selected from sitting as a candidate, and I am evidently far too left wing for a party which I joined fifty years ago, because I felt that a party with a track record of reform & having a positive influence & policy of greater equality in our society.. I am no longer a member- I don’t take kindly to being stabbed in back!what Len said about Angela Raynor is true - she would make a good leader, I voted for her at the last leadership election.

[@stechriswillgil3686]

His Wikipedia profile has him down as a grammar school boy who left school with 3 A levels in History, Economics and Politics. His time at Mersey Docks and Harbor Board was spent in the offices as a trainee Ships Planner. This wasn't ' On the Docks ' in the traditional manual work capacity at all. It's a big difference today; back in the 60s it would have been a massive difference!

[@danteshydratshirt2360]

wow he had A levels and worked in the sector such a Tory!

[@stevenpaulgoulding]

Thanks for that, he is a right socialist that makes him a hypocrite.

[@rossgarner58]

What a legend where are the McCluskeys today.Nowhere to be seen in the labour party.

[@henryjohnfacey8213]

Len McLuskey a great man. Greetings from Yorkshire.

[@timbob1627]

Starmer , will bring AIPAC equivalent to UK, see how many of his ministers are American and Harvard graduates😢😢😢

[@musiqtee]

EU as instrument for liberal finance and collector of national debt, sure, that’s what wrecks us. But Europe united in some way (a reformed EU) is imperative for us to actually rebuild welfare, mutual trust and egalitarian values. Not as a fix, that never works. But, as a constant dynamic adaptation to the ideas of taking care of ourselves in a non-greenwashed effort of sustainable existence. Pointing to enemies is one thing, but building for solutions to our actual challenges is more important.

[@cliffharker2600]

Thatcher always wanted an American model, two parties basically pulling in the same direction. She also said Blair was her greatest achievement because she believed he would deliver it. There is no doubt, riding Labour of the left is the main objective.