Sonic is Fundamentally Japanese

To be clear, I am not saying non-Japanese Sonic works are automatically bad. They can absolutely be good, great, or even better than the Japanese stuff. This is not a matter of being good or bad. This a matter of being true to Sonic.
There was a lot in this video I was considering cutting. But I decided to leave everything in for this one. Because this is a topic that can easily receive kneejerk, irrational responses, I figured it would be best to provide as much detail about my point as possible.
Apologies if my grasp of Shinto is off the mark. As I said, I've not researched it very extensively. As I say in the video, do your own research. I find Shinto promotes an interesting philosophy, regardless of the beliefs behind it.
Don't think too much about the thumbnail being different to my typical ones. It's simply that the ink style of the art does not lend to being on a black background, for obvious reasons. Though I have been kicking around the idea of white background thumbnails for a while. Maybe have them for a different kind of video? Let me know what you think.
Here's the links to my other videos you might want to watch first if you haven't.
• The Scrapped Stories, ...
• What is it about Sonic?
Here's Literature Devil's excellent video on Western and Eastern storytelling. Thanks to Solebinku for sending it my way. I've been watching a lot of Literature Devils' stuff lately. He makes great stuff.
• Western vs Eastern Sto...
You can support me here if you want. ko-fi.com/pariah695

[@thesoniczone11]

Sonic's free spirit could be interpreted as an idealized Japanese perspective of Western Culture. Like, similar to All Might in My Hero Academia being so heavily influenced and shaped by the United States and western superheroes in general, to the point of naming his attacks after the states.

[@chaplainnormie]

I think Terry Bogard is another great example of this.

[@sonicthehegheghog321]

I think that Sonic being blue with white and red and being all about freedom it's literally a personification of a concept that is, fundamentally, American.

[@phonesjuda7318]

​@@sonicthehegheghog321 a fundamentally american concept manifested in a fundamentally japanese manner

[@sonicthehegheghog321]

@@phonesjuda7318 I would say at this point that, before being fundamentally american or japanese, Sonic It's fundamentally globalized.

[@pheunithpsychic-watertype9881]

​@@phonesjuda7318 doesn't get much more American than being a melting pot

[@unnamed12346]

I'm surprised that it wasn't addressed that with Shadow's design, besides the Vegeta aspect, his design was intentially rooted to Japanese culture like the other characters, with his red stripes on his quills, eyes, and limbs being meant to be referential to the Japanese Kabuki masks (Even if people just want to dismiss it as "Haha edgy black and red") and how even though he starts out initially as a villain, it being red to begin with is referential to how red kumadori (The red striping that is used on faces like Samurai) represents youthfulness and bravery, but also represents justice and is traditionally worn by the hero of the story, something that Shadow shows since he acted initially on getting justice for the wrongs done to Maria, but then ends up enacting justice as he followed Maria's wishes. Then again, Shadow's design philosophy would be a whole other video that would likely be done by multiple SonicTubers, and the key point is mostly just Japanese roots to Sonic in general as opposed to just one at a time

[@Pariah6950]

I just forgot to mention that lol.

[@arjunmenon1796]

I think you could make entire videos about the designs of almost any sonic character

[@spaceaustrailia5895]

However, Iizuka stated that Sonic Team mostly watched American movies when looking to expand on Shadow's character for the game, "Shadow the Hedgehog."

[@mrbanks456]

@@spaceaustrailia5895 Yeah, I was thinking that Shadow's character becomes more westernized over time. The self-discovery angle is pretty Hollywood-esque.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

​@@mrbanks456 Sonic's attitude and personality is based off Bill Clinton according to Naoto Oshima

[@ChaosAngelZero]

It could be argued that, _aesthetically,_ the original Sonic Team designed and styled Sonic after Western influences in order to appeal to the West, while _narratively_ they stuck with what they personally liked, knew and felt most comfortable with.

[@unnamed12346]

Meanwhile with Sonic Boom designs: "We're making the designs more Western focused" (Though that implies to me that even though they made Sonic with some Western draw, it's a similar case to Jak from Jak and Daxter where Jak was Western but the original design was meant to appeal to all regions without change)

[@OhKayEl]

And yet Sega of America still felt the need to westernify Sonic even more by completely redrawing the cover arts of the classic games and recomposing the soundtrack for Sonic CD.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

​@@OhKayEl Because Sega is running a business. Which requires marketing. By the way, Sonic complete flopped and flops in Japan. So much so that the entire Sonic Team moved to America 1992-2006. With Sonic Colors and Sonic Frontiers: the original script was written in the West. Japan has an entirely different script to fit Japanese tastes

[@sumnahlennon5449]

​@@OhKayEl Its Kishimoto (Japanese, Sonic Frontiers lead) that suggests that Japan and the West need 2 different versions of Sonic. He said that about Frontiers. What now, Weeb?

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Sega is a business. Their market is in the USA, or West. Hence, the Sonic Adventure games took place in a USA type setting

[@hammerkirby5243]

About the Rouge thing, I think American kids media around the time did that quite commonly. Look at Tawna in Crash Bandicoot or Lola Bunny. The "sexy" anthro character was quite common in the 90s and early 2000s for some reason lmao

[@fazzeai]

Because that is the joke. Tawna, or for example, Jessica Rabbit are joke characters, they are pretty unusual for the western stuff. While in japanese stuff, those characters are not for jokes, they are... they just are, yeah. In Dragon Quest you have some sus stuff about puff puff, you have rabbit suits, for example.

[@ViltrumiteIsRite99]

Tsk tsk Rouge started many furries in their childhoods. 😢

[@hammerkirby5243]

@@fazzeai I do think the cultural context is a bit different I do agree. But it is often played for jokes in japanese stuff as well. Like in Dragon Quest which you mentioned. The puff puff is actually just slimes in DQ8 lol.

[@knuxuki1013]

Yeah, especially in the nineties lol

[@Stuffies2022]

This is a Berri from Conker’s Bad Fur Day moment

[@mBluett]

I think your point about "the scripts have so many details that could not possibly translate into English" is true of just about anything from Japan, but it speaks more to the poor quality of the localization. Espio totally could have given off a more formal manner of speech that an American associates with a ninja, Shadow could have had his speech modified to come off more boyish and naive. Something would always be lost in translation but most localizations these days do a better job of getting the intention across with a bit of creative interpretation.

[@fazzeai]

But that's the thing, all of that is lost, and those results we see today at the end to the day, like it or not, form american Sonic and japanese Sonic as a different things. And, even more so, if you have to interpret something, it already means that Sonic is not american, so it still works for the point.

[@inendlesspain4724]

@@fazzeai No one's arguing about Sonic being american here, but they could still do a better job at translating and localizing the games; even besides getting over the original intentions of some especifically japanese things, there is still some stuff like "we're on our way to the ARK, so I guess that means we're going too!" that is beyond ridiculous.

[@fazzeai]

@@inendlesspain4724 have you checked the video? The whole topic is American and Japanese Sonic.

[@inendlesspain4724]

@@fazzeai By "here" I meant the topic of the quality of localization in some older Sonic games that OP brought up. My point was that losing some elements in translation or even changing the identity of the series in localization was the least of their problems when they struggled to just get the basic information across in an understandable and sensical form, the bare minimum.

[@Lunchbillion]

While Pariah makes a lot of great points about how a lot of the cultural aspects of Sonic's conception are difficult or impossible to localise and get unfortunately lost in the process, I definitely think you're right about this one. These dialogue examples are totally localisable imo

[@KStarPR]

My personal favorite characterization of "American" Sonic is how he's written in the SA2-Black Knight sort of era. He maintains his kind heart and strength of character, making him a respectable and noble person, but also has his American edge of being a bit impatient and snarky. At his heart, he's a free spirit (a spirit of the wind, aka a kami) who'll go to any lengths to defend the peace and freedom of others (something rooted both in Japanese and American concepts). On the surface though, he's a fun-loving teen who wants to live life to the fullest, playfully poking fun at others (particularly those that oppose him and his ideals). Sonic will explore to his heart's content, lounge about when he's bored or tired, and smirk in the face of anyone willing to go against his idea of justice. As you and others have said, he's very much a shounen protagonist, he just has an extra bit of American sports and pop culture added in for flavor.

[@autobotproductions1244]

that's what drew me to Sonic in the first place. A cocky thrill seeker with a heart of gold. A guy who mouths off to the evil of the world and stands up for those who can't fight for themselves.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

SA2-Black Knight is written by Shiro Maekawa who said he was rewriting Sonic because he originally wasn't a Sonic fan before 2001. He disliked it. So, Japanese writers dont care for all previously established continuity😊

[@unkownuser3851]

​@@sumnahlennon5449 Talk about spreading misinformation. Shiro maekawa's answer wasn't really clear, he didn't like the megadrive era of sonic. But never stated why, it could be either his character (Which is clearly not the case since he wrote sonic the best, never changing the fundamentals of the character, he just built upon them.) Or gameplay (Which I think is the most likely case, because shiro used s3k as the basis for most of his stories.) and even if he does hate the character, he clearly didn't apply a "Rewrite" of sorts to sonic, it was probably applied to Shadow. Which makes me respect shiro even more as a writer.

[@galten7361]

@sumnahlennon5449 Lay off the twitter takes.

[@iamdonifightbengaltigers]

I think having different cultures telling the same story is cool tbh. The mixture of eastern and western culture throughout the series is one of the most endearing things about it to me, just makes the series feel super unique. Everything in the video was super cool and interesting, but in my personal opinion, writing off the american side of things just cause it’s not fundamentally japanese is missing out on a lot of great aspects of the series. Surge, her design, and her whole story arc in IDW feels VERY much like a modern-American type of thing, and she’s pretty much become my favorite character in the series since Blaze the Cat, even beating out Sage. but, again, this is just my differing opinion.

[@sonicthehegheghog321]

On my opinion, a what point we can say that Sonic it's "fundamentally" Japanese when the dude it's all red / blue and white an all about freedom and individualism (something that contrast a lot with the more reserve, stick to the rules culture of Japan)? I would say that Sonic it's "fundamentally" a product of globalization, rather than just "Japanese" or "American".

[@mrbanks456]

@@sonicthehegheghog321 Now that the world is more connected than ever and art from all over the world can be seen by everyone, you could call anything a product of globalization. There are many Japanese properties influenced by other things, but I'd never not call them Japanese and neither would the creators.

[@sonicthehegheghog321]

@@mrbanks456 True

[@LoliconSamalik]

@@sonicthehegheghog321 What you're pointing out was all over shounen jump at the time too. It's not distinctively american, but rather, its because japanese culture was really like that at the time that those stories became popular to tell.

[@sleepshouter6569]

​@@LoliconSamalik No. The original artist of Sonic, Naoto Oshima said that Sonic's colors are based off the American flag

[@loucapit]

Surprised you didnt bring up Shadow's Kabuki mask-inspired red markings! Either way, I really liked the trivia about Knuckles's crescent

[@silveramyknux241]

13:26 I also like to see his extra tail as a representation that he is still young, but is still a lot smarter and sometimes even more powerful if he puts his mind and bravery to it, than a lot of other characters.

[@ChaosAngelZero]

I see it less as Sonic representing nature and Eggman representing technology and more like nature representing nature, Eggman representing the egotistical, selfish side of technological development, and Sonic being the balance between the two. Not just based on the bad future/good future dynamic of Sonic CD, but also on the way that Sonic interacts with technology, gimmicks and all things that don't exist in nature, such as rings, item boxes, and even his very own biplane.

[@Angie2343]

Stop calling him Eggman. It's Robotnik!

[@lpfan4491]

@@Angie2343 Stop being obnoxious. His family name is Robotnik, but Eggman has always been his nickname from even before said family name was made canon.

[@Angie2343]

@@lpfan4491 Ah.

[@Wiki1184]

@@Angie2343 Pretty sure the Eggman name came first.

[@Angie2343]

@@Wiki1184 True. But I prefer Robotnik more because it makes more sense.

[@fanix9989]

Sonic X gives strong "japanese-storytelling" vibes too. Not only because it was made in Japan and was very faithful to the Japanese conception of Sonic. It has a strong Japanese symbolism (leaves falling from the trees, Cosmo becoming a cherry tree as a symbol of death)

[@panthekirb7561]

And it was infinitely superior than the western cartoons that came before.

[@fanix9989]

@@panthekirb7561 I've only watched SatAM aside from Sonic X, but I agree. I like X much more

[@megasonic0442]

Nope Chris ruins the fucking show.

[@carso1500]

I mean, Sonic X is a straight up anime so it makes sence

[@runtuntbadunt96]

Great video, but I have to disagree with the notion that sonic can only "be" one thing. I'd never considered just how Japanese inspired sonic is (outside of obvious comparisons like dragon ball), which gave me a new perspective on the character and the franchise itself. That said, I don't think the takeaway should be that sonic is better off as one thing over the other, but instead that sonic is unique in that its appeal spans different cultures so well BECAUSE it is a great fusion of Japanese and Western ideals. To say sonic can only be properly written one way can be easily disproven by looking at all the different ways fans have interpreted his character over time; while some like the game's interpretation of sonic (like you and me), others like the more emotionally driven narrative of his character from the shows and comics, with a proper dose of 90s 'tude, of course . While these two interpretations of sonic are very different in many ways, I would argue they, and many more, still (for the most part) hold the major tenets that make sonic so appealing intact. At least for me, sonic doesn't feel like a different character in these other forms of media (again, usually), but instead he and the world around him function in a fundamentally different way that result in different forms of storytelling. As a side note, the only thing I will agree does not feel "sonic" at all was the eventual focus on romance in the comics- I understand that aspect is a big thing for a lot of fans, but like you I simply don't relate that kind of storytelling to sonic at all personally (but hey, if that's your favorite thing about sonic then you do you). I guess my main point in this long-winded response is that sonic itself is such a malleable franchise that it can seemingly appeal to anyone due to how universally likeable sonic's character and world is. I think what made sonic so likeable in the first place was the aforementioned fusion of western and eastern ideals, culminating in a mascot that millions of people can enjoy and rally behind, despite their background and personal interests. While you and I may have our own preferences and interpretations of sonic and how he should be represented in media, what makes sonic so unique as a franchise is that it can appeal to basically anyone simply by how universally likable sonic's fundamental personality is. If you took the time to read all this btw, thanks

[@autobotproductions1244]

well said

[@ElliottWilbur]

Agreed

[@ChaosAngelZero]

Don't forget about -Knuckles- _Sir Gawain_ willing to take his own life after being defeated by Sonic in order to escape the shame. That feels less like medieval chivalry and more like the Bushido.

[@lpfan4491]

I still wonder if it was intentional that Gawain is appearently from the east or if it was a legitimate mistake.

[@carso1500]

​@@lpfan4491it was a mistake, the writers just confused chivalry with bushido because they are soo similar (and to be perfectly fair a lot of western writers do confuse bushido with chivalry too, both are somewhat similar but very diferent)

[@lpfan4491]

@@carso1500 I see, that makes sense. It's imo still cool to at least headcanon it as an "ascended glitch" interms of narrative writing.

[@smflash]

The big difference between the interpretations of Sonic for me when I was a kid was that while Sonic is meant to be an individualistic person, the American version of that decided to make him more sassy and rude to make that clear to the audience while the Japanese version (while he does often address people informally) is mostly polite and amiable to others unless they give him a reason to disrespect them. I guess the Japanese version of Sonic comes off as a gentle person who is willing to do anything to protect people who can't protect themselves. While Sonic in American media like the Archie comics, SatAM, Underground, and AOSTH is also willing to do whatever it takes to protect people that need it, he outwardly acts like a brash individual that would make a meek person that doesn't know him well stay clear of him.

[@Angie2343]

Hence why I like the American Sonic more.

[@akdreamer6497]

IDW Sonic is much more in line with the Japanese version, if you haven't read it yet, I'd recommend it.

[@sugamamaproud9810]

Sonic underground French cartoon not American cartoon.

[@Angie2343]

@@sugamamaproud9810 I know, but it had American actors first.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

​@@akdreamer6497 There is no "Japanese Sonic." Some of the writers of 2000s Sonic games admitted to not even researching Sonic when writing the games. SA1, SA2, Heroes, Unleashed, has entirely different portrayals of Sonic despite being Japanese written.

[@carterh914]

Sonic is a strange ip. It means many different things to people. Its like a shattered mirror. You try to make sense out of what you are looking at but will never get what it all means.

[@overlandlord5965]

The word in Naoto's tweet that was translated into "fairy" was "yosei", literally "bewitching spirit". It is often translated into "fairy" as it is mostly synonymous with the European conception.

[@dandyspacedandy]

40:05 I not only disagree with this point, I actually find it very close minded. back in the 90's~2000's, there was less interest in preserving the original intent of a Japanese story when translating to English. And while we'll never be able to fully bridge the gap, localizations have been making the effort to be a lot more faithful to the original source material from what i can tell, especially in regards to anime. I say all that to preface that I'm aware a lot of story and character elements are lost in translation, and I think that's a shame. I find it illuminating to learn things about the characters that were lost from their original Japanese context, I'm all about understanding authorial intent in the media i consume. But I feel like Sonic has grown too large to only consider the Japanese side of things to be the "True Sonic". There's just too much cultural crossover in my opinion, with people from many different walks of life working on the franchise, from Mania to Sonic 2. Obviously different interpretations like the Archie comics and Sonic SatAM arent compatible with the "main canon" of the games, but even if thats the case, I feel its narrow to ignore the impact they've left and write them off as not the "True Sonic" Those parts of the franchise left an impact on a huge part of the fan base that can still be felt today. To many people, even if those iterations of Sonic are divorced from Sonic's original Japanese context, that one's the "True Sonic" to them. I don't even particularly like those iterations of Sonic, but they played a huge role for Sonic's image in our cultural conscious. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I dont think there _is_ a "True Sonic". Not anymore at least, not when its expanded so far and so many different iterations had been given the Sega stamp of approval. The idea of Sonic has conceptually mutated over the ages. And you know what, maybe there's something to be said about whether it was ever _okay_ for the concept of Sonic to be twisted so much like this. Regardless of the answer to that, this is currently the timeline we live in, with Sega struggling maintain consistency for their own characters, and giving the wheel to different people, giving us gifts like Sonic Mania and the IDW Comics. We're in a timeline where Sonic's fanbase is perceived as intensely dedicated to creating their own fanworks and interpretations of Sonic. These are things that make me believe there is no longer a point to trying to pin Sonic down to the interpretations of one nationality. Yes, when discussing the literal canon of a Sonic game, I would want to refer to the Japanese dialogue because it was made and written by Japanese people. But I don't think that means people of other nationalities are incapable of writing for Sonic's world, or have to follow Japanese story structures, or have to adhere to Japanese character design when adding to Sonic's world. Again, it feels like Sonic has gotten too big for such a limiting point of view, both in official and unofficial works. I do want to end this with saying, it is perfectly understandable to have preferences in the way you'd like to see Sonic handled narratively. But I find it very puritan to suggest the only valid version of Sonic, is a Japanese made Sonic.

[@Pariah6950]

I've gotten a number of comments saying similar things. And I've had some good conversations about this whole thing that has brought me to a new understanding about this topic. So I'm going to be making a follow-up video.

[@DrMecha]

At this point, it's an argument in favor of "The Death of the Author".

[@dandyspacedandy]

​@@DrMecha i wanted to argue that as well, but felt my comment was getting too long

[@akdreamer6497]

@@Pariah6950 Thank fuck cuz that single take at the 40 minute mark completely invalidated literally everything you'd said in the video prior. The whole video was like riding a train and that take was malfunctioning controls and a closely approaching solid lead wall. Trainwreck.

[@benmalsky9834]

I DO like those iterations of Sonic. I like ALL iterations of Sonic.

[@nnightmareg]

Big is such a different character in Japan its crazy, and the fact hes hated so much in english is such a shame He's such a unique character and i find his speech patterns very interesting I love team rose in japanese in general, they just make more sense in dynamics

[@lpfan4491]

It took a lot of time to appreciate, but people recently startd liking the character more.

[@LoliconSamalik]

Let me guess, he speaks lots of osaka-ben

[@EvelineDaw]

I've always had a soft spot for the gentle giant, but his memefication has elevated him to a new level for me xD

[@Darkparadox64]

​@@LoliconSamalik stop guessing u don't know Japanese

[@carso1500]

As far as i know the hatred for Big was more about his gameplay rather than his personality

[@thomased22legoyodagaming]

You know what I think most things in this video, I can totally see where you're coming from. It makes sense, it's mostly true. But as someone who studies western storytelling intently I must say, strength of character is not just super relevant in *traditional* western storytelling it's, a core pillar. The balled of Beowulf is pretty much the oldest western story, everything western is built off of this story and I mean it. It's literally the original superhero story. To summarize for those who do not know, Beowulf is basically a Danish prince, he comes to the aid of a foreign king because he owes him a favor. This guy is a prince he probably doesn't need to do this but he's an honorable man so he travels far to go help this guy out. Basically there's a terrible demonic beast named Grendel who's terrorizing the people. Beowulf hangs out in their little battle station/watchtower place, waiting for Grendel to appear at night. Beowulf is told that Grendel is very savage and has proven to be unkillable by normal means. This is the beast he must face in battle. In response he takes off his armor and lays down his sword, and meditates. When Grendel appears and tears the other guy apart Beowulf leaps into action against Grendel. When Grendel attempts to strike Beowulf grabs his arm, and basically locks it down, twisting and squeezing it. Until it pops off at which point Grendel pretty much sulks off and dies in his cave. Tbh if a man steals your arm I think that's a valid response. Grendel was immune to harm because he could cast a demonic spell on weapons to make them useless. So Beowulf being brave, wise, and willing to maybe give up some pride along the way won him the battle. No cowardly man would do this, hell most probably wouldn't have even shown up. Beowulf's strength of character is shown by him not only showing up in the first place but by his willingness to stay despite the odds placed against him, because he'd rather potentially die than sacrifice his honor. He is duty bound, more than honorable even. He doesn't gain a treasure or a weapon or a power from doing this. But he gains the respect of his peer, the foreign king. And of course the respect of the king's people. Later on he kills Grendel's evil demon mother. But that's less important. More importantly later in his life when he is king he dies while killing a dragon to protect his people. This man is a king he never had to step up to the dragon if he didn't want to but he did because he has the personal duty of protecting his people. I don't think he fought alone but idk this part of the story is very long and not quite as memorable as the "Grendel Arc". Strength of character from my experience is pretty universal even going back to the Babylonians and stuff with the stories of Gilgamesh. All my homies love Gilgamesh. Because to be fair what else is there to write about. The thing about stories is that, without people, human beings, there wouldn't be much to write about. No drama, no learning complex things, no morals and ethics and strategy and technique, no vengeance, no joy, no humor for sure, humor is a human exclusive thing entirely. A good *traditional* story is all about the characters, and their, well, character, as people. This kinda went down the shitter as of late, I emphasize traditional western storytelling, because mainstream writers these days don't want to participate in such things as if they are below them. Which results in missed potentials or just, in general, kind of ass stories. Stories bankrupt in morals and totally tone deaf, it's just, miserable. I'm 17, on the verge of 18, and even I, a youngin, wonder how they keep doing this, and still manage to keep their jobs. People hate this shit even if they don't know why to this detail. Rejecting tradition in the case of western storytelling is to reject *everything* and then trying to start again from scratch which nobody is good enough to do. This wouldn't be that big of a problem if they didn't replace traditionalism with bankrupt morals, or just, nothing. Or worst of all shit humor like seriously you're killing me. Even a story with poor humor can be good with good fundamentals like the despicable me movies. When they aren't trying to be funny they're actually pretty convincing and heart warming stories tbh. And that's just one example boy I could go on and I could have detailed more about Beowulf and shit but then we'd be here all day. Point is, don't agree, strength of character is like, the fundamentals of any good story worth a damn. Anyhow it's nearly 3 AM I gotta freaking sleep man I'm dying out here.

[@JLCL01]

I enjoyed reading this. I was wondering what examples there are of writers abandoning or butchering western storytelling. I don't know if this exactly counts but I know it's common to "subvert" audience expectations. However, it's often executed in a poor way. The main example being the main character replaced by another for the majority of the series. This is whether they just disappear, die, or just still around but not as focused. The main thing I can think of that does this is Metal Gear Solid 2. However, at least the execution is done well (that and there's reasons why it's done; mainly to show Snake/Pliskin's personality from a non-player perspective and for spoiler/thematic reasons) I know one recent method for storytelling is the "story circle" by Dan Harmon. It does follow a logic of sorts and has a intro-buildup-turning point-climax-end flow to it.

[@SocksFC]

This is what made Sonic so unique. All the mixing of different cultures, story themes, locations had a vintage anime charm even though I’ve never watched it, if that makes sense. Sonic CD’s wacky and zany aesthetic as well as the intriguing story themes in 3&K, Knuckles Chaotix (Japanese version) and Adventure 1

[@Om_Nomm]

Take a shot everytime Pariah says "Japanese"

[@Cre8Chaos]

bro is going to the hospital lmaoo

[@The_letter_N]

I always thought rouge's design was based on a Japanese fashion trend "gyaru". Which itself could be viewed as rebellious from the typical formal fashion sense in japan. You could take her white hair and yellow skin as an exaggerated take of the platinum blonde hair and tanned typically associated with the style. Rouge likes to wear makeup and a bunch of flashy outfits as well. It adds another layer to her design than just "sex appeal"

[@galten7361]

Hmm.

[@Romanode_]

Pariah please invert the thumbnail colors you can’t just make it white pariah please

[@sanik9002]

no this is cool

[@yall_girl_eve]

waltuh

[@ChibiSteak]

Although I like the white background, I'm willing to sacrifice it for having the trend of black background thumbnails continuing

[@crimsonzone8984]

I believe he intended that thumbnail for a more eastern approach on this video about sonic.

[@captainyasopp154]

I don't like the black and white but I know forsure it's this guy's video when I see this kind of thumbnail so it's effective lol

[@EdgardoJCruz-dk5kv]

Personally I liked both sides to begin with. To me both sides are Sonic. You can't have one without the other. To me that is, it's not everyone's opinion, so I get it.

[@7blue728]

this is the best comment that could have been in this vídeo.

[@connorburris4846]

Because if you have Sonic without the west, you get chris thorndyke.

[@seacliff217]

Should be mentioned alongside this that western media does influence the eastern one. Like Chilli Dogs appearing in Black Knight. Or Eggman's Grandfather actually using the Robotnic surname. Sonic 2 and Sonic 3&K also had a chunk of American staff members on both to programing and art side.

[@BakuganRey]

Could not agree more, sonic is just a perfect blend of japanese and american story telling and i don't know why so many people either choose one or the other, really hope we can have that mish mash come back in the future

[@kilometersperminute4113]

@@connorburris4846 Sonic without Japan = Ken Penders…

[@NineTwentyThreeTwentyThree]

For whatever reason fans both want Sonic to have a shonen tone but don't want Sonic to be a Japanese media. This fanbase is pain.

[@Darkparadox64]

These are Americans fans who wants sonic to stay bad in the US , because of the bad games sonic is hated in America while in Japan be is becoming popular.

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@Darkparadox64why would fans want sonic to stay bad in the USA?

[@Ather0nline]

Fans WANT to see Sonic as a good written character, most of people don't care about japapanese or american.

[@nicobane]

Tezuka manga and Tomino anime are big influences to Sonic characters and stories too. SA2 is basically written and structured like one of Tomino's gundam shows. Highly recommend his works (obv Tezuka's too).

[@_thejuicebox]

While I don’t necessarily agree with 100% of your points, or the ending, I do believe this is a great video and informs a lot of people on things that are inherently Japanese. Looking forward to our chat soon!

[@benmalsky9834]

I just wish there was less fighting over Eastern versus Western.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Sonic isnt inherently Japanese. Its a fusion of both. Except that Sonic Team Japan does not believe it makes sense to have American and Japanese scripts to be the same

[@sumnahlennon5449]

The video is mostly false information. Mostly false.

[@aidanshowers8366]

Classic sonic: like ghibli very subtle in its story telling and delivering of themes Modern sonic: loud frantic and in your face, and the ending always escalates in comparison to the rest of the story, basically studio trigger.

[@CaseJackal]

Growing up and going to school in america, it was always school girls who showed the most interest in things like tarot, fortune telling, astrology, etc. Maybe it's not super ubiquitous as it was in japan, but as a kid i definitely remember depictions of amy as a fortune teller and just had that passive thought "oh she's one of those tarot girls". As an adult I also find that women my age tend to be noticeably more into things like tarot and astrology. I didn't think it was a more prominent japanese thing. that's the only real point I had about that. The rest of the video, including the interpretation of sonic as a Kami lines up perfectly. Great video!

[@gamingwithdream2005]

I’m in such a weird place when it comes to this because I was exposed to both sides of Sonic early on, I had the games and Sonic X but I also watched the old DiC cartoons on Netflix. In the present, Archie Sonic and the Freedom Fighters is my favorite interpretation of the universe, the ideal main cast and characterization of Sonic but at the same time, I love the anime and JRPG inspired writing of the Japanese subs. I want to see more influence of Japan on the world aesthetically kinda like Press Garden Act 2 in Mania. It’s kinda hard sitting in the middle of this never ending culture war between JP and US Sonic when all I want is just to unify everything Sonic related into one cohesive world.

[@benmalsky9834]

Isn’t there a single day that goes by where the Sonic fan community DOESN’T fight over something?

[@sumnahlennon5449]

​@@benmalsky9834 The fighting comes from a source. Normally an internet tough guy. This KZbin video has so much false info, but the Tuber believes he has influence since he uploaded the video

[@lol-gv7ox]

I think this video makes tons of great points, but I also think it has an issue. Yes, Sonic is fundamentally Japanese. Especially the more early versions of the Game Sonic. However, the games aren't the only version of Sonic that matter. The comics, the shows, they might not be as important as the games, but they are still important pieces of Sonic. Sonic is fundamentally Japanese, but I think he's also just as fundamentally multicultural. His various American interpretations, Sonic Team taking inspiration from other cultures for their characters, like the Mayans for Knuckles, several important Sonic games being developed *in* America, SA1's development involved going around the world, and the American interpretations having an effect on the mainline version, these are all parts of Sonic. Saying Sonic is fundamentally Japanese, while accurate, is also reductive. He's not *just* Japanese, after all. Hundreds of people from outside of Japan have left their mark on the character.

[@bigcade554]

Some really good points although I personally wouldn't write off the western depictions as being "not Sonic". They have their place too, as much as I prefer the source material (bad localisation choices not withstanding)

[@Harrinsain]

Another note; why do you think tropics feature so heavily in Sonic's iconography? This is also a Japanese thing. Not only because of the prevalence of summer vacation as a Japanese cultural paradigm (see Action Button's review of Boku no Natsuyasmi for more on that), but also because the music genre of Jazz fusion, particularly in Japan, leans HEAVILY on tropical aesthetics. And Japanese jazz fusion is a genre which very often contains environmental themes and soundscapes in its compositions and instrumentation. Look at artists like Katsumi Horii Project, Casiopea, T-Square, Masayoshi Takanaka, and more recently, Asturias to name a few. All these Japanese fusion artists which were not only already highly influential as to the iconic jazzy, melodic focused instrumentals which have since come to be associated with video games in general (since most video game composers of the 80s and 90s were avid fans of Jazz fusion, with certain compositions being directly influenced by certain tracks by the aforementioned artists), but who, like most other eccentric Japanese media of their era, heavily delved into environmental themes. Sonic, in being influenced by these kinds of artists, simply adopted that embellishment of nature through their shared imagery of tropical landscapes as opposed to just a generic grassland you might see elsewhere. Also, regarding Shintoism, to try and sum up and add on to your description; it's a belief that everything in the world, be it living or inanimate, has a soul. A soul coloured by human perception. if people's perception were to be changed of something, the soul therein would itself change to reflect that. Gods in the traditional western sense, under Shinto logic, are only all-mighty and powerful because we project such an image onto them ourselves, hence granting them such a position. Environmentalism becomes a factor here in the sense that, losing sight of that natural beauty and our roots as a people would to be effectively putting an end to it even before anything might have been done to harm it. it may as well be dead already the second we stop valuing it. Here's a snippet from a novel which is very explicitly built on the back of Shintoism, Tsukimonogatari by Nisioisin, which has one of my favourite descriptions of the state of these creatures' existence (which this story chooses to call 怪異 ("kaii”, lit. “strangeness”, often used to refer to an unusual or unwelcome entity, which most translations choose to translate as "aberration"): "Ononoki Yotsugi is a doll. In other words, she isn't human. Not a person. Not a living thing. Not ordinary. That is Ononoki Yotsugi. A tsukumogami that serves as a shikigami. She looks like a cute little girl; eccentric in speech and actions. Though she is an amusing and expressionless child, her true nature is that of an aberration. A yokai. A monster. That sort of entity. Because of that, she doesn't quite fit in with human society-" "No. That's not really accurate, Omae-sama. In her case, she was born from a human's corpse. While she is a doll, she appears human; pretends to be a human being." Does that... Does that mean she's striving to be human---that she's doing her best to try and be human? If so, I wonder... But according to Shinobu, that's not quite right. Apparently, the fact that she pretends to be human is proof that she isn't trying. "No matter how much you learn to speak a foreign language, and learn to speak it fluently, it's just a means to communicate with those from another country. It's not necessarily a means to assimilate into their culture. It's the same thing. She was created in the likeness of humans not to be nor become a human being. It was to "be together" with humans." Not to be, not to become. But to "be together". To create an amicable relation with someone from another culture, you must understand that foreign culture and look into it---"when in Rome, do as the Romans do". "In the first place, you know, Omae-sama... why do aberrations in legends or in other words, so-called metamorphic monsters, always take the shape of humans or animals? Basically, they're unreal existences, yet they base their shape on things that really exist. You've never really thought about it?" I had never thought about it. That is, well, if I can say so, perhaps the limitations of human imagination. Humans can only speak about reality in their own words. "Ultimately, aberrations exist thanks to people... they exist because humans exist. This doesn't mean aberrations are dependent on humans, though. It just means that if there’s nobody to observe, nobody’s being observed. Even I, who was dubbed a legendary vampire, would not be a vampire without that legend. The same as any other aberration. If you can’t speak of the aberration, it isn’t an aberration. A ghost story must be “a story of the supernatural”. When you get to the heart of the matter, an aberration is just an attachment. “Attachment. Emotion. Could such sentiments be felt towards even a mere doll? For Tsukumogami and what monsters people ill-consider, one could say they're all created through them. The way of thinking that gods can reside in all things... The belief that there is a myriad of gods... I hear that's something unique to Japan. However, it doesn't matter whether it's living or not, sympathy for things other than humans exists all over the world. That is why ghost stories are told all over the world. Told... by humans. I can believe that. No; I have no choice but to believe. After my numerous encounters with aberrations, as someone who has told stories of aberrations... about the vampire, about the cat, about the crab, about the snail, about the monkey, about the snake, about the bee, about the phoenix. As the one who told these stories, I have no choice but to believe. And now, once again, I am trying to tell a story. A story about a doll. But I feel like I've talked too much. Urban legends, street gossip, second-hand information. When they're spoken of too much, they lose their meaning. The hair-raising, awe-inspiring feelings all disappear.” Then there's also the fact that there are quite a few things in Sonic that seem to parody American ideas, the sort of thing which could only come about from an outsider looking in to that culture. Sonic himself is a figure who lives under a philosophy of deadly individualism, a resolve to freedom which he won't compromise for anything, even if such an attitude is just as dangerous as it is impressive. Then you have GUN, which are pretty obviously a parody of Cold-War era USA militarism, particularly in cases like the Vietnam War, where even the mere suggestion that there might be a threat to their liberty pushes them into action, even before any actual threat has arisen. Gun a paranoid global military government who are so afraid of losing hold of the status quo that they become conservative and dare to fight back against even the best attempts at progress if it could potentially risk them their seat. As we see with them shutting down Project Shadow---something they were supervising in the first place---after their attitude towards it changed once they saw how revolutionary it truly was. Then you have Eggman, a fantastic foil to both Sonic and GUN in that he is all about humanity's insatiable drive for technological progress. The Chaos Emeralds were originally an analogue to nuclear energy, and in the hands of Eggman, they become a horrible weapon. Perhaps as a parallel to America's development of the nuclear bomb. That would make sense considering the fact that Japan's rampant obsession with environmentalism throughout the latter half of the 1900s was a direct result of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.

[@connorbredall3112]

Deadly individualism? Really? That term is just as stupid as the term 'radical free speech'.

[@Harrinsain]

@@connorbredall3112 hm? I don't necessarily say it as an insult, it's just concise, is all. And besides, you can't argue it isn't accurate to Sonic's character. His whole schtick is following his whims regardless of whether it's the smartest thing to do or not. And that attitude often gets him into trouble just as much as it serves him well. So I think it's perfectly apt.

[@connorbredall3112]

@@Harrinsain I thought that you were using the term as part of criticism against sonic the same way that Carlos Maza used the term radical free speech as part of criticism against Twitter back in 2017, and because collectivism vs individualism is seen by some as a partisan issue, where collectivism is seen as the left-wing position and individualism is seen as the right-wing position, and individualists would most likely not ever use the term deadly individualism unironically, thought that you accidentally revealed to me your partisan views and that you were left-wing, or at least you were left-wing on that topic specifically, but then I looked at your channel and found that you are subscribed to Mauler, so I now don't know what to think.

[@Harrinsain]

@@connorbredall3112 Ah. Well no, I was not trying to invoke that. I first heard the term in a video talking about Suda-51's mindset when it came to game design, about how he'll go for something ridiculous and self-indulgent just because it appeals to him, regardless of whether it seems like something that would sell. Also what exactly does MauLer have to do with any of this? I don't subscribe to people based on their political views. So long as they make good shit, I couldn't care less what they do outside of that.

[@connorbredall3112]

@@Harrinsain Isn't Mauler like a highly partisan channel that also is about media analysis, as opposed to something like JonTron or Jello Apocolypse where they are mostly nonpartisan but they did something partisan like once or something that got them controversial and became infamous as a result, meaning that Mauler's partisan politics are an important part of his brand, just like how partisan politics are an important part of Hbomberguy's brand (a weird comparison I know)?

[@corruptedteka]

I like what you're explaining here, but I think you're kind of missing the point in dismissing what non-japanese aspects and depictions bring to the franchise and how BOTH shaped it to be what it is now. Sonic is a mishmash of a lot of different things, not just japanese culture, and I think the japanese elements aren't MORE important than the whole. They're a big part, for sure, but they're not the only thing that matters. Sonic wouldn't be where it is if it wasn't a worldwide multimedia franchise. Sonic wouldn't be Sonic if you only had the japanese parts.

[@benmalsky9834]

Exactly! This is why it’s perfectly valid to like BOTH sides of the spectrum.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

A weeb made this video. Wait til he finds out which 2000s Sonic Team writers actually disliked established depictions of Sonic and rewrote the characters during that time. The changing depictions of Amy and Eggman show how different Japanese writers had separate takes.

[@shin-ishikiri-no]

Nippon is more important in terms of influence. Sonic is an idealization of the Western adventurer and free spirit.

[@BJSolar02]

​@@sumnahlennon5449Sources?

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@sumnahlennon5449 I’ve never heard of what the Japanese writers changed. So, what are you referring to?

[@UltraCenterHQ]

People often forget that Sonic was made by japanese people

[@yungmuney5903]

....FOR WESTERN AUDIENCES. This alone collapses this idea.

[@UltraCenterHQ]

@@yungmuney5903 "This idea" The idea it was made by Japanese people?

[@carso1500]

​@@UltraCenterHQSonic is a brand created by the japanece to appeal to the US and the japanece people that created it have gone out of their way to try to adapt the brand and gather elements from all the regions where its popular

[@GetemNewellRules]

I agree that sonic is very Japanese, it’s where he’s from, he’s typical shonen MC, and I love everything from the Japanese side, it’s actually my favorite version of sonic, BUT I also love the American stuff too and I hate that it was just left behind without a proper goodbye

[@GetemNewellRules]

Also the thumbnail pariah, very out of character

[@GetemNewellRules]

ALSO YOU MENTIONED ONE PIECE YES, as someone that usually goes English dub with sonic even I know how similar one piece and sonic can be with character and storytelling, both amazing series and I highly recommend one piece

[@radiokunio3738]

I think Sonic was meant to be both, he's a Japanese character made by a "westaboo",. He is an inversion of avatar or american made "anime". Sonic is a Japanese made "Western cartoon".

[@sumnahlennon5449]

The Japanese (2001-2009) Sonic writer literally said he disliked everything about Sonic, established and he purposely rewrote Sonic the way he sees fit. Thats Shiro Maekawa. In other words, the characterization of 2000s Sonic is deliberately comtradictory to what was established about Sonic in the 1990s. So by saying, "this is Japanese Sonic" you are objectively wrong. The main Japanese writer for 2000s Sonic did not even like established Sonic personality/portrayal and rewrote him

[@sumnahlennon5449]

But Shiro Maekawa hated that Shonen stuff 1990s Sonic was going for. Thats why Heroes/06/Sonic Riders/Black Knight has a calmer Sonic

[@deepad8089]

Sonic from the way I see it is a “westaboo” franchise similar to something like Trigun, it’s created by Japanese people who were fascinated by US culture, people and characters such as Micheal Jackson, Santa Felix, Mickey and even Bill Clinton which it’s always had bigger appeal here in the West. But throughout 1998-2009, it’s ALWAYS maintained it’s Japanese elements and storytelling beats as you said.

[@fazelfarrokhi1998]

Yes

[@carso1500]

It's a combination of things because for most of Sonic's history the games were developed in the US and a huge objective of Sega was to try to intégrate western design and story elements into the franchise

[@NIMPAK1]

To play devil's advocate, the examples you use to describe Japanese storytelling sound more like popular manga tropes that developed over time and were influenced by other manga as opposed to literal writing techniques like Japanese four-act structure. Though fun fact, the standing deaths of Whitebeard and Ganondorf are based on the story of Benkei. However as a fan of older manga, I've noticed that a lot of shounen made before the mid-80's barely resemble shounen as we know it, or you at least see the early prototype of certain tropes. I also feel like it's hard to call a story "Japanese" unless it's literally made in Japan because a lot of story-telling conventions derive from a huge mishmash of Japanese mythology, Chinese mythology, huge social movements, the effects WWII had on Japan, mangaka being influenced by other mangaka and even influences from Western culture. Like you have Akira which was influenced by Testujin-28, which was influenced by the effects of WWII and then you have stories made later that were influenced by Akira.

[@Pariah6950]

I didn't want to go into actual writing techniques and structure here because that's a whole giant discussion that gets very technical. Which is why I recommended Literature Devil's video. I just thought those kinds of elements would best illustrate the sphere of influences Sonic pulls from, and how they're mostly Japanese. I also agree that making a truly "Japanese" story is nigh impossible for someone not from Japan themselves. But when that's such an essential element to the nature of a series, I feel one should try to understand and capture those things as much as possible. Instead of not even attempting to be faithful, which is what all existing Western Sonic media has done. If I was going to write for Star Wars, I would research and study the things that influenced George Lucas. I would watch war and samurai movies, among other things, and try to understand how they influenced Star Wars, so they could influence my work in similar ways. It's part of the job. If I'm going to write for an existing thing, I want to do it right. I want it to feel like the real series. Not my version of it.

[@sonicthehegheghog321]

​​​@@Pariah6950 Why trying to be faithful, when different versions are a common thing in arts? I mean look at all the versions and retellings of Romeo and Juliet. Since that's a thing, at least in (modern) western culture, it's kinda presumptuous or mentally square just to say "no a part of the job it's sticking to the original material as much as possible" An example of how that is not how we do things here it's... Starwars itself, that varies the tone and themes at one point where the prequels are basically unrecognisable from the original movies even when they are directed by the same dude, let alone the posterior material directed by different people. It feels we are having an outdated aesthetic discussion, to be honest.

[@Pariah6950]

@@sonicthehegheghog321 I feel it's important because people like things for reasons. If Sonic can reinvent itself to be something totally different and still be Sonic, then what even is Sonic? Anything that just has the logo slapped on it? Does Sonic not have any important qualities that make it Sonic? How much can you get rid of before it stops being Sonic? Sonic, or anything really, is more than its superficial elements. It's a combination of many very specific elements working together to make something that grabs people. When those elements are gone, the thing itself is gone. When I play a horror game, I want horror. When I watch an action movie, I want action. When I go to Sonic, I want Sonic.

[@sonicthehegheghog321]

Again, I consider this is an outdated discussion at least here in the west. This is the essentialism of Plato directed to art all over again, but instead of talking about how art should be just an imitation to reality it's about the idea of prioritize the core elements of a piece of art instead the capacity to change them in order to serve as a tool of artistic expression. "If Sonic can reinvent itself to be something totally different and still be Sonic, then what even is Sonic? Anything that just has the logo slapped on it? Does Sonic not have any important qualities that make it Sonic? How much can you get rid of before it stops being Sonic?" For example, what is fundamentally wrong about this? you talk like, if we allow different versions of the same thing "the thing" itself dissapears, when the reality show us that is not the case: The thing doesn't dissapears, it just change for each artist (look at DC for example, every Superman is different from the other, but the general idea of Superman didn't die for that even when you have things like communist Superman of dictator Superman (injustice)) I'm more a fan of George Luca's version of Star Wars, but not the "original George Lucas" but the George Lucas who wrote the prequels, and in the second or third place I would put Rian Jhonson. I valorate them for having "the same take of Star Wars"? Obviously not, I valorate them for their particular takes on Star Wars. What is so "wrong", "unconceivable" or "incorrect" in that outside of a particular preference? "When I play a horror game, I want horror. When I watch an action movie, I want action. When I go to Sonic, I want Sonic." Each artist can have a different take of what certain thing is when it comes of how they want to use those elements when it comes to their artistic expressions. For example a lot of people would say that "Omori" Isn't horror if they interpret horror just as the horror you can see in the movies of Alien, that people it's obviously wrong: It's not that Omori doesn't have horror, it's that is not their particular kind of horror. In the same way IDW!Sonic it's a Sonic, not just your personal preferences when it comes to "Sonic". I would argue that allow different versions of Sonic to exists it's valuable, because a lot of artist out there can relate with different aspects of Sonic and want them maximize, or have curiosity about how Sonic would react to more complicated / morally demanding conflicts (Like the Metal Virus Saga, for example). In the same way you say that is impossible to avoid the fundamentally japanese aspects of Sonic, since their creators are japanese, I would say that is impossible to avoid the globalized nature of Sonic as a brand since we are living in the now: Romeo and Juliet can't be the same when is written by an english person and when is written by a colombian, not just because their from different nationalities, but because they live in different context that fundamentally change their results of what Romeo and Juliet is.

[@Pariah6950]

​@@sonicthehegheghog321 Certainly, one can take a series and change it up substantially. There is nothing inherently wrong with that in terms of the individual work being created. In fact, this new iteration of something can even surpass the original in many ways. But I must ask the question, if you're going to change something so much that many of its essential elements have been stripped and it becomes something different, why don't you just make something different? What's the value in even being part of the series at that point? Usually, the answer is money. Brand name. Get people to care about something they normally wouldn't by slapping on their favorite logo. There are limitations when being creative. Even when making an original work, you create your own limitations. You dictate what it is going to be, and you have to stick to that when developing it, lest it become an unfocused mess. Evolution and expansion is one thing. But throwing out the identity is another. In the case of working on someone else's series, what it is has already been dictated for you. There is an inherent promise that a work makes that it must deliver. And when it breaks that promise, it leads to an unhappy audience. For example, I love the Devil May Cry series. And I really enjoy the DmC reboot. It's a great action game on its own merits. But it's not a DMC game. And it's hated by most fans because they wanted a DMC game. It made a promise, and broke it. Where if it was its own thing, the only promise it would have made was to be a fun action game. And it would probably have been remembered fondly.

[@DPlex]

could also point out on how much Frontiers takes from Evangelion, which is INSANELY popular in Japan just like Miyazaki's works.

[@kilometersperminute4113]

Sage literally has Rei’s VA lol

[@GamingintheAM0801]

@@kilometersperminute4113 To be fair, Rei's VA is in everything. She has her own page on TVTropes.

[@DPlex]

@@GamingintheAM0801 she was chosen because of Rei, though. Rei's English VA also voices Sage.

[@kilometersperminute4113]

@@DPlex She voiced both Japanese & English versions of Sage.

[@DPlex]

@@kilometersperminute4113 yup.

[@wander7812]

Remember: You never fully experienced the Sonic Anime (Sonic X) if you never watched it whole subbed (japanese). For example, in the original dub Sonic curses, is calmer during his Dark Sonic form, and Live & Learn plays when him and Shadow stops the ARK!

[@lpfan4491]

Technically Season 3 was only made to be dubbed over, so only the first two seasons are relevant for that anime's proper experience.

[@benmalsky9834]

For most people, they don’t WANT to hear Sonic curse.

[@lpfan4491]

@@benmalsky9834 That's like saying some people don't want to see dark stuff in Zelda games. Even tho it was censored, it is still part of the series.

[@ChaosAngelZero]

If I remember correctly, the thing that defines many character archetypes in Japanese fiction is called the "ketsui" (決意), if they're completely fixated on something like an object or an idea. In the case of characters like Zoro, I think that he's more defined by the concept of "Tao/Dao" (道), i.e. "the Way", meaning that swordsmanship to Zoro is more important than his own life because without swordsmanship his very existence lacks a purpose.

[@lpfan4491]

It's one of these archetype-trees that has its fingers in many diffrent kinds of stories. Rather than just life and death, there are also the cases where characters are challenged by losing their purpose and having to either find a way to attach themselves back to it or find a new purpose. Sometimes this comes in the form of their original purpose having been fake all along(Probably where the joke of "my entire life has been a lie" came from).

[@carso1500]

That just seems like giving a japanece name to a popular writing trope since it's not something exclusively japanece there are tons of stories from all over the world that have characters that are soo fixiated on something they are willing to die to accomplish their ideals

[@owlspirit1112]

17:41 I'd disagree. Plenty of gen z girls my age are obsessed w fortune telling, tarot cards, etc. ESPECIALLY zodiac stuff. It's not quite the MOST normal girl thing ever (for her age especially), but it still came across the way it was supposed to for me when i joined the sonic fandom a year ago

[@guizhangchen1999]

Much like your "What Is It About Sonic" video, this was truly eye-opening and makes a lot of sense, because I would have never thought of it this way

[@OhCrapI_He]

22:17 I imagine having Espio say, "I ascend!" in the English dub would've had a similar impact

[@simonlow0210]

Oh!!! That totally works.

[@crimsonzone8984]

​@@simonlow0210as a meme, it works. But as a story, it'd be giving people the wrong idea.

[@Monhamd1000]

Junichi Kanemaru will surpass Charles Martinet, i can feel it.

[@_Jay-Jay_]

Sonic's Japanese roots are particularly a reason why I never got nowhere nearly as upset as everyone else did at the Deadly Six when they first debuted. Before they were even called "Zeti" they were simply called "Oni" during development and Iizuka did intend for them to be called that. But for whatever reason Sega of America opposed the name "Oni" and they had to settle on "Zeti" in the final game. Hell, I even prefer the name of the Japanese title of the group ("Band of Six Ogres") compared to the western localization which went for something more generic ("Deadly Six"). I feel as though the writers of Lost World weren't too knowledgeable on what an "Oni" is (especially after being renamed to something that doesn't even sound like that) and would not be able to write them in a way that uses tropes within Japanese folklore about Oni, Ogres, and other kinds of wicked Yokai. I'd honestly like a Japanese writer to get a hold of them and go whole hog on their evil demonic nature since Oni are capable of bringing wars, weather alteration/elemental abilities, causing plagues, mental manipulation, shapeshifting and devouring souls. Even Lost World in a way played with this idea of them "devouring souls" considering the device Eggman built during the events of that game sucked the life out of the land below the Lost Hex. Then the comics played with their nature of spreading illnesses and allowed them to further spread the Metal Virus, nearly engulfing the entire world with zombots.

[@lpfan4491]

It is not particularly surprising that the writers of Lost World didn't know about eastern culture, since they barely even knew anything about Sonic(Which was the reason they were hired, lol). I gotta say, the part I like most about the japanese localization of the game is that Eggman just proceeds to rename them as "Eggman's demons". Bro thinks he's part of the team.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Sonic and The Lost World was made due to Sonic's popularity in America and the request specifically for a Classic type title

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Sonic Lost World flopped in Japan. Sonic's fanbase in Japan is nearly non existent

[@sumnahlennon5449]

​@@lpfan4491 *Sonic Lost World was written ground up by American writers! Stop!*

[@sumnahlennon5449]

​@@lpfan4491 first of all, the original story of Sonic Lost World was came up by American writers. Same as Sonic Colors and Generations. Ken Pontac and Graff. The Japanese script is localized for Japan, based off the original Japanese script

[@DynastyZero1]

Interesting takeaway for me is that the "harmony with nature" theme is extremely prevalent in Mother 3, which has one of the best Japanese game stories imo

[@wildbill7942]

Okay I can't let you get away with the Amy segment. Tarot card readings may not be the predominant form of fortune-telling among American girls, but *astrology sure is.* Localizing Amy to seem like an average girl is as simple as changing "she read it in the tarot cards she pulled" to "she read it her horoscope." Fortune-telling by design is meant to be vague enough so that just about anyone can read their fortunes into their daily lives and feel some post-hoc vindication of what they'd read. It's instantly recognizable to just about any American despite its lack of representation in television and video games because of its prominence in *tabloid media.* Online, faith and reliance on astrology is its own meme of "woman moment." *Male* American Sonic fans may see it as a quirk and not a fairly normal hobby, but women absolutely will.

[@GUNUFofficial]

Honestly I think western studios treat sonic better then "let's make this random mobile game dimps made in a few days into sonic 4 and f*ck over big red button and make sure to rush people new to the industry into making sonic forces" sega.

[@nickmarlon7397]

0:00 Intro 1:39 Influences 9:24 Sonic 13:26 Tails 14:13 Knuckles 17:03 Amy 18:21 Shadow 18:57 Rouge 19:38 Cream 20:52 Japanese Dialogue 25:05 Western & Eastern Storytelling 34:21 Sonic OVA 37:06 Power of Friendship

[@user-nl1yp6pu1n]

I'm so happy that there is a channel that makes videos like this.

[@gokuuzumaki5748]

The Shinto inspiration thing you bring up is quite interesting, it made me realize as to why Gods would at times punish people for misdeeds in JP manuals like sealing away the stones in Westside Island.

[@silenthazardz]

if only it was a video about shinto 😭

[@lpfan4491]

It was very eye opening even from the western view of deities because it synergizes with a lot of common ideas regarding the concept.

[@GamingintheAM0801]

While I can definitely see where you're coming from, I gotta say, my thoughts on the matter are: "Nah." Or, more accurately, "Sure, Sonic may be fundamentally Japanese, but I'd argue that it doesn't really matter at the end of the day." Sonic is the only franchise I can think of, aside from maybe The Last Airbender, that manages to bridge the gap between eastern and western storytelling philosophies. It doesn't distinctly feel like solely the product of one or the other, but a meld of the two. And that's because, well... it kind of is. Even as far back as Sonic 2 and 3, which had both American and Japanese staff working on both the design and programming of those games. Or the method Sonic Team has been taking with the Sonic games post-Black Knight, where the basic story outline is created by the Japanese staff while the actual script and dialogue is written by English writers (and then later translated *back* into Japanese). Not to mention that the Japanese canon has, at this point, borrowed several elements from the American canon. I'd argue Sonic *was* fundamentally Japanese at first, but for a while now it's been a pretty fair mix of western and eastern elements. Like, I'm not a fan of all of, say, Ian Flynn's decisions, but he clearly understands the characters pretty damn well, and to suggest that his version isn't valid just because he doesn't happen to be Japanese seems, sorry to say, incredibly close-minded. I get it, I usually switch the voices to Japanese when I can, but that's really more because that's the voice cast I personally prefer, not because I don't consider the English versions to be "the real Sonic" or whatever.

[@Pariah6950]

I don't feel this way about Western Sonic creators because they are American. It's because they are American that their approach to making Sonic is lacking things I feel are essential. When I engage with it, it doesn't feel like Sonic to me. I disagree that Ian understands the characters. Or at least, he isn't interested in writing them how they used to be. There's so much dialogue that I respond with, "That character would never say that. They don't talk like that." And I feel the same about the stories themselves.

[@GamingintheAM0801]

​​​​​​​​​​​ @Pariah695 Sure, the characters are snarkier and quippier when Ian writes them, but that's more an issue of tone than characterization. The heart of the characters is, I feel, still very much intact and it's basically a matter of preference. The way I see it, as long as Sonic is depicted broadly as a free spirit with a heart of gold, the details beyond that don't really matter. Like, Cream doesn't have to literally perform a traditional Japanese-style bow every time she meets someone in order to remain in-character -- as long as she's depicted as being polite and well-behaved, why does the specific cultural mannerism with which she does so make a difference? You could have her do a curtsey instead -- probably the closest western equivalent to the Japanese bow -- and I doubt anyone would claim "Cream wouldn't do that." Yeah, you could argue that, say, SatAM "isn't true to Sonic," and in many ways I would agree with you, but like... it's still *good* in spite of that. And that should be what matters. It's not just Sonic, I almost always dislike the mindset of, "This character/franchise is only valid if written/depicted in the very specific way I prefer." It's a stubborn way of thinking that only serves to stifle creativity and more often than not just causes franchises to stagnate and wither. It's part of why nerd culture can drive me crazy sometimes, despite being a nerd myself. Sonic has thrived as a franchise for this long in large part because the character and his world can be interpreted and depicted in such varied ways. Or hey, maybe I've just spent too long as a Digimon and Final Fantasy fan, two franchises where completely reinventing itself with every entry is a *selling point.*

[@crimsonzone8984]

Have different iteration is fine. So long as it's its own thing.

[@MortalP]

Personally, I'm a fan of both. I love the Japanese roots of Sonic, but I think the American media and ideas do add a lot to the series as well.. And since Sonic was made to appeal to the west, I find it interesting to have this marriage of western and eastern ideas coming together. I personally find more enjoyment from Sonic by enjoying both sides.

[@masswarped6912]

This video was a real eye-opener for me. I always knew Sonic had a very Japanese flavor to him, even as a young kid who didn't even know anything about the differences and nuances between western and eastern writing and storytelling, but this video really put everything out on the table. 33:09 This quote from Sonic: "I don't mind being the bad guy every once in a while", is really interesting to me. It's established early on that Sonic is a character that hates boredom and is always on the move looking for new experiences and thrills in life. The idea that maybe a small part of him is actually kind of bored of being the ultimate hero who always defeats the bad guys and triumphs in the end, and he was kind of interested in being the bad guy of a conflict for once is really cool to me. But it doesn't just feel like a weird random swing for his character, as he is still fighting against a corrupt and tyrannical king, so he technically IS still the good guy, it's just that the ideologies and beliefs of people back in the midieval times is vastly different from the more modern times Sonic and his friends are from.

[@bluequills80]

The Director of Sonic Frontiers morio kishimoto said the story of that game was inspired from the Japanese folktale moon rabbit witch is interesting.

[@G_come_Gelo]

I think this can also, really well, apply to Splatoon. People think it’s a “very Western” game, but all I see is Japanese culture. Even the squid and octopus as animals themselves are way more known as mascots and eaten as food in Japan than in America. The West couldn’t ever have even thought of making a concept like Splatoon. I could make a list of reasons, but I would be off topic under a video about Sonic lol

[@veggsbacon1891]

I really enjoy this informative video, good sir. 🗿☕️ Some "fan": "sonic is not Japanese! Weeb SNORT." Well, dragon ball is more popular in the west than in Japan, and it's made a JAPANESE man. Goku weebs. Mario is made by a Japanese group. Just saiyan. 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@silveramyknux241]

18:57 I’m not a huge fan of the reason why this type of character is added, but I still love that Rouge is here as it makes Sonic’s world feel even more varied, that people who likes showing that bit of skin or wear attractive clothing exists even though the games never would delve into those adult themes.

[@Hack_Man_VII]

I'm not a good writer, but I am striving to improve myself in that field. Topics like this are very interesting to me. I have always been fascinated by learning about mythologies and story telling from different parts of the world. Whenever I've tried working on a project, I normally try writing a story that I would personally enjoy reading. It's difficult for me to write for other people because I'd be trying to appeal to a demographic that doesn't exist.

[@DoritoGOD2811]

The series is made to appeal to those outside of Japan, you can't really argue against that. But it is still true that Sonic is a fundamentally Japanese character/idea. That may sound counterintuitive, but it really is as simple as Sonic being a product made to do well overseas that was created with the sensibilities of the culture that made it.

[@justinarzola4584]

The only successful sonic games in Japan were the adventure games due to their shoenen aspects of story,sonic was meant to reflect classic cartoons and the American 90s teen, in the 2000s they tried making sonic more Japanese but this didn't work after 06 and the other games so they replaced the Japanese writers with american writers.

[@galten7361]

@justinarzola4584 SatAM Boomer

[@isaacargesmith8217]

Sorry for the massive text wall btw. I will say that I feel like in large part a lot of these issues imo more just come from how honestly a lot of the localizers for sonic just didnt do a very good job frankly especially with the 3d games. However I do feel that in a way it can be a bit dismissive and gatekeepy of the work that the creatives of western sonic works have made to say that they aren't "sonic". They arent japanese game sonic but I feel when taken on their own terms they have their own appeals and "sonic-isms". Each version is to some group the "best" or most interesting version of sonic and it speaks to the universal nature of the character, even when they have so many japanese design and story sensabilities to them, that many cultures all have their own version to fit their cultural needs. Johnny Vector had a really good video "Why Is Fleetway Sonic a Jerk?" that gives a really interesting european sonic fan perspective on why their sonic acts the way he does in that version as an example. I do however think you're justified in wanting "your" sonic. Just as fleetway fans are right to complain that their sonic doesnt really get made anymore or that archie fans cant have what they consider sonic, same for satam, adventures of, and so on and so on. There should be avenues to get that "kind" of sonic. On top of this a lot of the localizations dont really capture the "ideas" behind a lot of these sonic games and often kind of miss important aspects like with espio and such. Id say a lot of these elements could be translated to get the ideas across but Sonic has kind of always been plagued by bad localization and translation that just don't. A lot of this comes down to segas horrible mismanagement of the brand of sonic. It is a core part for a lot of sonic media and a lot of stuff is informed by these sensabilities too so they are definately important to understand as being a major influence when making media for him but I do feel that its fine if there is sonic media that deviates from that. Some of my favorites do in fact like Adventures Of Sonic as an example. Speaking of legacy franchises, I noticed similar discussions with those series also tend to happen. Batman brave and the bold is an example I think about when it comes to this stuff. A batman story that is intentionally meant to call back to a lot of silver age type comic stories as well as that type of writing and tone. Weirdly it was hated when it came out, though now it has cult status, for not being "batman" even though it was intentionally a love letter to a part of that serie's history and cultural identity. It wasn't "dark and serious" enough and didnt fit into the current cultural idea of batman at the time. However it could also be argued that when the silverage of comics was around the silver age batman comics weren't "batman" neither as they were created in part due to the increasing censorship and such brought about by the comics code. You could see this happening to a lot of comics at the time and it even partially killed off some genres like horror. In praise of shadows did a good but VERY VERY long two parter of that called The Golden Age of Horror Comics. Another one that comes to mind is TMNT. The original comic isnt like anything that came after it cartoon wise and was in part a parody of other comics like dardevil on some level. The original cartoon version of the turtles is also radically different from later generations too and was where many fans first started. Even then though, I would say rise of the tmnt or tmnt 2012 are just as "TMNT" as the mirage comics and the original 80s cartoon, even when they're all so drastically different. They still have that "heart" even if they were made with different goals and cultural influences and such in mind. If you look at these franchises they tend to be decent at supplying their fanbases with multiple "versions" even when they're mainly focused on the newest itterations. Sonic has always STRUGGLED with that. Where as 80s and later TMNT coexist as their own things that all still get merch, classic and modern sonic were melded into one brand with modern replacing classic til recently as just one example. They actively ignore most older western and even a lot of older japanese material like the manga, where as stuff like batman will try to make new material for old subseries, such as the animated movie for the adam west batman series from a few years back as well as brave and the bold. SegaSammy is just terrible at managing this brand frankly. To use some public domain series' example to sort of illustrate my point, pinnochio and winnie the pooh. When disney went and made their own winnie the pooh, there was an outcry due to how they "americanized" the european based series, even adding a groundhog based on american southern/westerners. However its probably fair to say that to a lot of people disney's version is their definitive version. Both are valid and have their own appeal in their own ways after all and work to serve different cultural needs. On top of this winnie the pooh has went public domain in the US recently so that americanization may become further common as I dont believe he's public in his home country yet. Does that make these works any less winnie the pooh though? I dont think so, its human nature to take from existing works and remix them to fit their own cultural needs often times. Id argue in part that's what's happened to sonic and why he has so many western versions with stark differences from the japanese game version honestly. Pinnochio is similar in a way. That character a national treasure in italy yet does that mean Disney's Pinnochio with its americanization and drastic differences make it any less "pinnochio"? I wouldnt say that, just that its a reinterpretation of a time tested idea with its own idea of what makes Pinnochio "Pinnochio". Same for Buratino, the Russian Pinnochio. It has a lot of Russian sensibilities but just because it isnt this specific Italian Pinnochio doesnt discount a lot its importance to early cinema and Russian culture. Just like say SATAM defined Sonic for a lot of kids, Buratino defined pinnochio for many russian children even without much of its italian identity from what I understand and completely changed story. Same for Del Toro's pinnochio. Does it being italian setting wise mean it's more "valid" than these other versions? Its definately more "true" to the original but even then its pretty different too. The creator is from Mexico if I recall and their unique perspective on the story, even if its accurate in a lot of ways, makes it pretty different. I kind of recommend There Will Be Fudd's "Ranking Every Version of Pinocchio" video if just for the fact that you can see just HOW different all these reinterpretations get. In a way, as I watched that and saw all these utterly different and incompatable versions, it still paints this collage of works that still sort of fit together. Most still have this core "Pinnochio feeling" that binds them, its hard to describe. However it still is just as valid to prefer the originals and want material more in line with that, just as with sonic. There should be room for both. Also small thing but I find it funny people always find rouge weird since we actually do kinda do stuff like that too, with rubberhose type characters no less. Looney tunes tend to just have characters like rouge a lot of times. The cinema shorts, the 90s stuff like animaniacs, space jam. Its actually a common trope for looney tunes and similar types of cartoons and frankly rouge kinda fits in with that in the same way she fits how japan likes adding characters like her in kids media in a way. Another thing Im surprised you didnt mention is from what I understand cloning and artificial life was a major talking point for people in the late 90s in japan. Both mewtwo and shadow are most likely influenced by these topics and why both seem to have messages about the topic of artificial vs natural life and such.

[@DrUpauli]

The inversion of thumbnail colors threw me off haha. Anyways, this was probably one of your best videos, much to think about!

[@fikridroid]

Oddly, I found that Shadow the Hedgehog (2005) was full of Hollywood influences

[@vadim_65rus]

This reminded me of one meme: What I watched - Kill la Kill What I expected - Devil May Cry What I got - Sonic Adventure 2

[@fazelfarrokhi1998]

Yes sonic is japanese

[@kinggalactix]

I agree that Sonic is fundamentally Japanese. He has this heroic and noble feeling, and he is always bound to his morals and his ideologies. Sonic loves freedom and nature, and Eggman wants to take that from everyone. He doesn't want to see people cry or suffer, he always sees the best in others, he prefers to do things his own way, and I'd go as far as to say that he would sacrifice his own life to see his world and his family, friends, and kin (the entire world) be fulfilled. Honestly, it makes me appreciate Sonic more than ever.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Sonic is fundamentally a product made to pull Americans away from Mario. Naoto Oshima based his colors off the American flag. Eggman/Robotnik is based off Teddy Roosevelt and Santa Claus. Sonic's shoes are based off Michael Jackson's. Sega specifically asks for American feedback on what to add to the next Sonic game. The Classic Sonic games were even created in America. Sonic Team moved to the location where Sonic actually sells. Iizuka, lead of Sonic Team is head of Sega America's gaming division.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

"Sonic sees the best in others" no he freaking doesn't. The 1998 character bio for Sonic Adventure basically says Sonic doesnt care what others thinks of his personality. And the "it doesn't matter" SA theme song follows on that. Infact, the Sonic OVA has a rude Sonic that acts out just thay. Not caring who he offends. The 2000s Sonic Team writer said he disliked the original portrayal of Sonic characters so he rewrote them in a way he enjoys it. Japanese Sonic writers are not even following previous Sonic portrayals. And they admit this

[@kinggalactix]

@@sumnahlennon5449 i think that's mainly because it wasn't selling well in Japan, or something.

[@igirjei3717]

@@sumnahlennon5449 Even if I don't necessarily agree with sonic seeing the best in others - that's more of an amy thing - I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not sonic cares how others view him

[@SonicTheSpeedGod]

So basically… Just get shiro maekawa back lol Best sonic writer ever:) If you don’t know He writes things pre-meta era, like Sa1 SA2 SATBK

[@fazelfarrokhi1998]

Yes the best

[@krebooted5944]

I mean, I agree with you that Sonic takes a lot from Japanese culture, but that doesn’t make it not elitist to disregard literally any piece of sonic media from the west. In my opinion, part of what’s so cool about Sonic as a franchise is the fact that it does draw from so many different cultures in equal amounts, I would say. You point out the English dub using Japanese phrases as through the Japanese dubs of a lot of Sonic media don’t toss in using English as one of Sonic’s character traits as well. Yeah, knuckles’ bear symbol is lost in translation along with some of this other stuff, but at the same time, a lot of Japanese people won’t get the cultural significance of or comedy behind things like the resemblance between Eggman and Roosevelt, or Sonic’s resemblance to MJ and the like. For every Super Sonic, there’s a Death Egg to balance it out. I think I would have liked this video a lot more if it was used as an earnest discussion of all those Japanese influences on Sonic rather than as a vessel to devalue the western-made Sonic media in comparison. Why is it out of the question that someone should love both sides that this franchise obviously has? Why put your focus on defining the series by what a specific culture can’t see instead of the fact that it contains at least a few elements that every culture will? Also, much more minor nitpick, but fortune telling is 100% a hobby American young girls have too. Ask almost any woman and I guarantee they can get you in touch with a friend who owns a tarot deck. Even disregarding that, the contents of the future will always be an innate human obsession. Paper fortune tellers, love tester apps, M.A.S.H., he-loves-me-he-loves-nots? Dunno, less important, it just irked me a little and I wanted to air it out.

[@thetbhresistance7042]

Eggman wasn’t based on roosevelt, he’s based on a character from Alice in Wonderland and the “ goofy old man” character archetype from old MIyazaki films

[@thetbhresistance7042]

Japanese people are very much aware of old Disney movies and Star Wars lmao, some things go beyond being western and are simply much more international, especially something like Star Wars

[@ElliottWilbur]

I agree with everything you just said I love everything about Sonic's cultures both of them I am a big fan of his American culture and I am also a big fan of his Japanese culture both are my favorites they're both amazing together and apart that's what makes Sonic great they're both awesome

[@bigcade554]

A lot of girls in the West love astrology which is pretty close to tarot cards. I think we've all heard women talk about being a Virgo, Pisces, etc.

[@dj.c-t5575]

He never said to completely disregard all other influences. he said that the Jp side of things is bein slowly replaced by the american side & that the thing that made GAME sonic "sonic"(that the OTHER SONICS come from) shouldn't be disregarded & should stay the core of the franchise like it was from 1991-2009. If we lose that core that connected to so many ppl in the 1st place & made the franchise wut it was then wut is sonic? All other sonics come from that 1 so it'd be unrecognizable after that & possibly downright disrespectful to forget it & move on like it doesn't exist. also wit the Jp dubs it ISN'T a SEGA/ST thing that is a solely junichi thing cus he teaches english alongside bein a VA

[@MasterDisaster64]

Frebbventure is a game that I feel has that "Japanese essence", despite being made by an American and having the veneer of a Saturday morning cartoon. The way it progresses in scale and themes is very much like what you've described. One of my favorite video game stories, I'd suggest you check it out. It's also very time-attack-able like Sonic.

[@philRacoindie]

honestly Pariah checking the game out would be quite cool

[@SuperFreaksDev]

Seconded, Frebb is written the way people wish Sonic was. It has a TON of character and the lore gets pretty hardcore

[@hashtagwoke8506]

I love how your thumbnails all have a consistent aesthetic - makes me more likely to click them when I immediately know its your channel. Though I really hope the less flashy thumbnails haven't hurt you in the algorithm lol

[@Pariah6950]

Oh, they definitely have lol.

[@crimsonzone8984]

​​@@Pariah6950 you should do more flashy thumbnails like this. Look at your black rock shooter thumbnail. Atleast it has some colors in it, and it looks amazing!

[@DonutSwordsman]

Superb connections. Really enjoyed the Zoro and Ganon comparisons.

[@x-mighty7602]

38:38 I'm so glad you mentioned Spark the Electric Jester.

[@garnet2779]

"All right listen I know many people are going to read the title of the video and their immediate response is gonna be 'shut up you weeaboo'" My immediate response after reading the title of the video : You're totally right

[@fazelfarrokhi1998]

Yes right you understand

[@Lunchbillion]

There are lots of really interesting and brilliant observations about the artistic conception of Sonic in this video. We differ somewhat in what conclusions are to be drawn from those observations, and that's OK! In fact, my disagreement is more of a vague feeling as opposed to a strong conviction. I'm very curious to contemplate where that feeling stems from, as it's sure to be very connected to my general opinions about art. Thanks for the brain food!

[@gamefreakDX]

The OVA part, the way you see it is only a part of the picture. Tails notes that Metal and Sonic share a very similar mindset - it would explain why Metal basically only solo targets Sonic. Even if Metal was spared and left to live, it would go against what he thinks and by that same token, what Sonic thinks: There is only one Sonic. It also explains why Tails and Knuckles express surprise at Metal, while Sonic is absolutely disgusted.

[@ArgentuTA164-2]

11:54 So I actually took a second to translate the first part of this, and Ohshima-san actually said something closer to "Sonic is like a fairy hedgehog", actually using the word for "fairy, sprite, or elf".

[@UltimateSuperX]

I have to say. I have been a huge Sonic about as long as I can remember, been following the series since the 90's, and I thought knew everything about Sonic, I even know Sonic was originally meant to have his own type of Spidy-sense where Sonic sneeze when danger is close, which a lot of people don't know about. But then you come along and completely blow my mind on Sonic's Japanese. Sure, I already knew that Eggman's name was always Eggman in Japan, and Tails was based on the nine tailed fox in Japanese mythology, but everything else was surprised. I enjoy both American Sonic and Japanese Sonic, the version of Sonic I don't care for is UK Sonic.

[@fastboi2390]

I always heard that the mark on Knuckles' chest was originally intended to be the Nike logo to emphasize his powerful and competitive nature, but they couldn't actually do it because of copyright and whatnot. I've never heard anything about mountain bears sharing the same mark. That does make sense though. Hard disagree on the idea that any other interpretation of the character besides Japanese holds no value. The Archie comics, especially the latter half, contain some of the best characterization of Sonic and the series' as a whole. Not that it's just good, but it's very true to who and what Sonic is. As much as the original Japanese vision of Sonic *IS* Sonic, so too is the Archie interpretation. And many other not-solely-Japanese-made-interpretations of the series can be the same way. Yes the series is deeply rooted in Japan and Japanese concepts, but that doesn't automatically make any other interpretation any less "Sonic". (unless they are completely unrelated like the Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog cartoon, but even then it has it's "truly Sonic" moments) A lot of the best and most fondly remembered "character moments" of Sonic happened in the Archie and lately the IDW comics. I'm not an avid reader of the comics (I wish I could) but I've heard so much about the writing and characterization and how true it is to Sonic as a character. Of the handful of issues I have read for myself, I have to agree. Sonic as a character and a series will always be deeply rooted and inspired by it's inherent Japanese ideals and concepts, but that doesn't make everything else completely invalid as being true to Sonic.

[@galten7361]

Adventures of Sonic is just as in tune with the games as Archie is. Archie Sonic by large is making Sonic into a cross between Star Wars, superhero comics, and high fantasy in a post apocalyptic setting.

[@enigmaschallenger]

I really like how articulated you made your point in this video. Talking about cultural differences and how being influenced by them in creative works is a verbose topic that can be misconstrued if handled badly. I suppose I agree with your point even if I do find a lot of enjoyment from the sonic comics and their western contemporaries. Or I guess that’s the popular western comic market as a whole? A part of Sonic’s charm since very early on (in an early 2000s American sonic fan’s view) is the idea that Sonic can be interpreted in different ways like Arsène Lupin, Batman, Spider-Man, etc. where you have the core video game ‘this is baseline Sonic the Hedgehog’ and everything that comes off of that is different while hopefully trying to retain the essential themes and recognizable prospects of that core Sonic. Something with a more out there take like AOSTH still trying to convey the nature vs technology while doing something intentionally different tone wise than the original. Sonic has never had a tone deviation as extreme like original Maurice Leblanc Arsène Lupin to Lupin the third or Adam West Batman to the Dark Knight Returns, but all those things, like Sonic, try to keep the original ideas in some shape or form. It almost makes me wanna see your review of the Gravity Rush games, something you reference during the big climatic finale tripe section of the video. The Gravity Rush gamers a lot of western comic book and French influences in them like Franco-Belgian’s comics and Jean Giraud’s art.

[@Pariah6950]

Doing slightly different things I think has its place. But as you say, you gotta retain those core elements. The question is what are those core elements? The answer will be different for everyone. And I think the Japanese nature of Sonic is one of them. I will definitely talk about Gravity Rush at some point. I love those games.

[@zahwaurdo4800]

this is a mighty interesting video! Thank you for making it

[@Prime_Legend]

Plus, the most recent game, Frontiers, pulls a lot from evangelion. Sonic may have been made initially for American/western audiences, but people forget he was made by Japanese people. These Japanese people pulled some bits from popular western stuff but still had their Japanese remnants all over it(which is obvious to any sonic fan that frequently checks out manga/anime, Japanese games, Eastern myths etc.)

[@RightNowsReverie]

What inspirations Frontiers took from Evangelion, outside of Giganto looking like Unit 01?

[@spark9189]

@@RightNowsReverie both the english and japanese VAs for sage voiced rei in eva, and they have very similar manerisms. also supreme with wings looks a lot like eva unit 01 during the third impact.

[@Cellinator]

My gut reaction is a bit defensive for all the American Sonic stuff I love, but mind-blowing video! You’re revealing dimensions to Sonic that I never knew were there!

[@nekoX92]

When I read the title of the video, I was thinking to myself "Well, duh." However I really enjoyed the video and learned a couple things from watching. Great video, man.

[@shirawiriamusu8607]

Even though I may not be involved in the Sonic community/fandom, I do find your videos to be very informative on certain issues. I like how you covered this topic and backed up your viewpoint with facts about the Japanese culture. I am a writer myself and understand storytelling does vary from culture to culture. It's very understandable why some people may prefer the Japanese side of certain media instead of the American one. Anytime you try to translate something from another language it's likely that some things will get lost in translation. When things get lost, important details tend to get replace or overlooked which can change things altogether. Also, I know you deleted your canon video for your own reasons but I just want to let you know that while yes, you could have said things a little differently... ultimately, there was a lot of truth stated in the vid. While it is important to be respectful... you also know how people of this fandom are going to react/respond to any person who speaks against Sega's mascot or does not "go with the flow" when it comes to common views/opinions that are generally accepted. You won't be able to please everyone with your mindset and you should not have to censor yourself just because someone wants to be offended by the truth or just something they don't agree with.

[@ChaosAngelZero]

Haha, I've been recently rewatching Batman: The Animated Series, and noticed that the very first two episodes follow Catwoman, who is a very sexy villainess/anti-heroine (her suit is essentially body painting) that's very interested in valuable jewels... might be a coincidence, perhaps Sonic Team was mostly inspired by Doronjo.

[@OccuredJakub12]

I disagree about Amy's fortune telling quirk, I think it is and was very common for girls to care avout stuff like moon phases, zodiac signs, Tarot Cards... if she was interested in blood types (A, AB, 0...) then that's a very specifically japanese superstition for sure, but she isn't so yeah, that's not a japanese aspect of her. Instead, I'm pretty sure her Pico Pico hammer is the more japanese influenced idea

[@ShuajoX]

The Japanese trope of characters dying standing up is likely derived from tale of The Standing Death of Benkei.

[@cassandralyris4918]

My only tiny correction would be to point out that tarot cards and fortune telling are actually pretty big for teenage girls over here too, especially in the 90's.

[@BraviaGames]

I appreciate you making this video as it brings valuable discussion to the table. I do have a question though. _If you stripped Sonic down to his Japanese fundamentals only, would it still be Sonic?_ I ask this question because I don't think Sonic is _only_ fundamentally Japanese. Yes, Sonic would not be Sonic without Japanese fundamentals but it also wouldn't be Sonic without its Western fundamentals and I don't mean small details or easter eggs. I'm talking core design principles on par with what you explained about Shintoism and Shonen strength of character. I'll say that there are obviously much less Western fundamentals compared to Japanese fundamentals but they are important as well. I'll mention some here. Example 1: In Literature Devil's Western and Eastern storytelling video, he talks about how Western storytelling typically revolves around a central conflict while Eastern storytelling does not. You know what else was based on a central conflict? Sonic. In an interview with original Sonic-level designer Hirokazu Yasuhara, he says this: _“When I thought about what to make the conflict between the hero and the villain, I came up with the idea of using environmental issues as the theme since the characters were animals. The environment and development have always been two opposing sides of the same coin."_ I brought this interview up in your Unleashed story video but I want to focus on this spcefic aspect of it. Most Japanease media features an internal conflict while Western media features an external conflict. The main conflict of Sonic was intended to be external. Of course this changed with the addition of more characters like Tails who ushered in more Japanese storytelling with his internal conflicts. That aspect of Japanese storytelling did place more emphasis on Sonic as a flat character that impacts others, which is more a Western concept. Example 2: _Here's an excerpt from The Sonic the Hedgehog Technical Files: "He is loyal to his friends and has a good sense of right and wrong, but he is a very independent guy who is mostly interested in doing his own thing"_ Also, brought up in Literature Devil's video is the concept of the "Nakama" and how Sonic was originally meant to subvert that Japanese trope and opt for Western independence. Interesting how Sonic was portrayed by its Japanese creators to be a bit of a loner which is much more common in Western storytelling. Funnily enough Western media like Sonic Prime actually portray the "Nakama" concept better regarding Sonic and his friends. This makes Sonic even more Japanease but this was not the original intention. I could get into the character designs and color theory which carry Western philosophies as well as Japanese but, I say all of this to say that Sonic isn't just a Japanese character. He was made by the _Japanese_ for the _world_ and I don't want to undercut that. Anyway, I think you brought up some really great points and I learned a lot from this video. Though, I'm very interested in your answer. _If you stripped Sonic down to his Japanese fundamentals only, would it still be Sonic?_

[@Pariah6950]

Of course it needs the Western elements as well. It needs all of the key elements. The purpose of this video was to highlight what I believe to be a very important element that is often overlooked, and has been sorely lacking lately.

[@galten7361]

I mean there was Heroes.

[@BraviaGames]

@@galten7361 True. I was mainly referring to Sonic's conception and how he was originally meant to be portrayed. Also, while Sonic's relationship with his friends were at the forefront of Heroes, he does start his story traveling alone before Tails and Knuckles join in, so his Western independence is still there.

[@nightlydata2181]

THANK FUCK SOMEONE ELSE UNDERSTANDS. As someone who does like western media side wit things like the old cartoons, Archie, the movies etc. I subconsciously grew to realize these aren't "SONIC" & so I enjoy them without said expectations. This is y I hate the writin for IDW/Frontiers(in eng) cus the writers really don't know how to wright "SONIC" stories but they present them like they R so takin them on those intended merits hurts me so much. I could go on but u hit the nail on the head so beautifully I have nothin to add(I wish I made this myself cus it would've been pretty much the same but explained worse lol). This is 1 of ur best vids period & I thank u so much for properly explainin wut I've been wantin to for ages.💙💙💙

[@gamanzhiydanil]

"R" as in Sonic R?🤔

[@fazelfarrokhi1998]

Yes right trur

[@Allplussomeminus]

Got school hard on this one. I appreciate the knowledge.

[@godhimself1128]

I agree that the core of the Sonic series is formed by Japanese culture and perspectives, but it's hardly the fundamentals of the franchise imo. Sonic is closer to representing a blending of the east and west

[@CysmaWinheim]

Had I been the one localizing Sonic Heroes into English, I would have had Espio say "Level increased" and have him speak in a more "formal" or "professional" manner.

[@irkendragon]

I would disagree with the statement that Japanese storytelling traits don't exist within western created media. Varies from project to project of course, but they take inspiration and receive guidance from the source material. You just finished describing the trend of "character demonstration" moments when you made that statement, and I couldn't help but be reminded of some arc in the IDW comics I had just finished reading that had a lot of that with Sonic specifically. The sonic IP is a fusion of east and west, so there's cross contamination that goes both ways with everything that it produces. The western produced media doesn't exist in isolation from the Japanese source material basically.

[@zucchiniboi6306]

12:11 Cool insight, can kinda tell how Ohshima would then make Nights a character that can also kind of exist in real life through dreams

[@Faceu7745]

Watched the entire video, and couldn't agree more. Thanks for showing that scene in Yakuza 0. It was a very powerful scene and I'm so happy it's in this video.

[@DannyBenS94]

Sonic has always felt Japanese to me. It may have elements meant to appeal to westerners, but Sonic has never felt all that western to me except for the cartoons and the movies. I also like that Sonic has more of a harmony between nature and technology, rather than the generic "oh all humans bad. Should just have nature" message a lot of things made for kids have. Not to get into politics, of course. And that's another thing I like about Sonic is they don't try to heavily get into politics (unless you read some of the comics, but even then it's not all that much). Anyway, yeah Sonic really is fundamentally Japanese. I do prefer to hear them talking in English simply because that's really the only language I understand, but I do wish the script of the Japanese versions would be what they used in the English language of the games.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Sonic is Western, made by Japanese.😊

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Nature vs Technology is the original Sonic depiction. 2000s Sonic Team writer tossed that (he hated 1990s Sonic) and rewrote the characters for 2000s Sonic games

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Kishimoto of Sonic Team said it makes no sense for Japan and American scripts. For Sonic Frontiers, he hired Iam Flynn. Then asked a Japanese writer to modify Flynn's script so it appeals to Japanese

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Sonic Team generally asks American what they want before adding it to the next Sonic game. Sonic Team moved to America in 1992. Going to Japan only to work on Nights (1996) then came back to America to work on SA1 and SA2. Sonic Adventure has an American setting to fit the target audience. San Francisco, and even THE WHITE HOUSE.

[@sumnahlennon5449]

Japan is not even the target audience for Sonic. Sonic's colors are based off the American flag, the main villain based off Theodore Roosevelt and Santa Claus. Sonic's shoes based off Michael Jackson to gather these fans

[@TheHylianBatman]

So. I'm a historian. At it's core, Sonic is a character in a story. Sonic is a concept. And Sonic is a game. The fun in games transcends culture. Characters transcend culture. Stories have a harder time of it. Is Sonic baked-in Japanese? Yes, absolutely. But does that mean that anything made with Sonic that's not Japanese isn't true to Sonic? Not to me, no. Sonic's character concepts transcend Japanese culture. A Sonic-type character can exist in every culture on Earth, I believe. Are some details lost? Yeah. Are those details important? Maybe some. But does their absence invalidate the story? Not at all. This is where we get into translation issues and oral history. For thousands of years, there was no such thing as writing. Stories were passed down orally. Fiction, non-fiction, both. Lines blurred, and now, we have written copies of oral traditions. The only problem is they're all different. And they are so old we will never know which is closer to the original. And we will never know for complete sure what's history and what's fiction. But we still have all those versions. My point is a story is not validated by how close it is to the original. Every story needs to be judged on it's own merit, not on some invisible benchmark of culture. For example, I'm a huge fan of Doctor Who. I've loved it basically my entire life. But I'm not British. Doctor Who is. I've been exposed to enough Doctor Who to understand how it works. If I, with my American influence, create something Doctor Who, is it not true to the original product, because I'm not British? I don't think so. Now, of course, the differences between America & Britain and America & Japan are way different. America is a lot more different from Japan than from Britain. And I will admit that. But my point still stands, that, with enough exposure to a culture, one of a different culture can emulate it perfectly fine. You say that anything that's Sonic that's been made outside of Japan, to you, doesn't feel true to Sonic. Is that because it's made outside of Japan, or is that because it's crap? The Sonic cartoons, all five of them, are just ways to expand the Sonic brand and get more money. Same with the comics. Are they good sometimes? Yeah. Is that the main focus? No. Even the games have tread dangerously on this line, especially when the American writers took over in and after Sonic Colors. The American writers who knew and know nothing about Sonic. Are their stories (generally) crap because they're American, or because they know nothing about Sonic? I think it's the latter. I've rambled here, and I apologize, but I disagree with the final takeaway of this video, which seems to be "Sonic will be crap if he's not handled by the Japanese". To me, it's more "So far, Sonic has been crap when he's been handled by the people who know nothing about Sonic, who just so happen to not be Japanese". I agree that Sonic is better inherently understood by Japanese people, and that non-Japanese Sonic stuff will lose details, but I disagree that one would have to be Japanese to make good Sonic. They'd just have to be familiar enough with Japanese culture to emulate it. Enough so to understand Sonic. Like you said.

[@Pariah6950]

I probably did not word my final point exactly right. As I said, it is very possible to study and emulate foreign storytelling techniques. It has been done. And can be for Sonic. That's what I try to do when I write Sonic. When I say that I don't think Western creators can make something true to Sonic, I mean that in a pragmatic sense. I have no faith that Sega would hire Western creators who understand or would go out of their way to understand Japanese culture and storytelling. They've demonstrated that enough times by now. I doubt Sega execs even understand the importance Japanese influence has on Sonic. Nor do I think they would care. So with no interest in producing work that is true to the Japanese nature of Sonic, the only way to get that is for it to actually be made by Japanese creators. It's unfortunate. But that is likely how things are.

[@TheHylianBatman]

@@Pariah6950 That, I will agree with. But like I said, I don't feel convinced that it's a culture thing. I'm more convinced that it's a SEGA/crap thing.

[@nightlydata2181]

U didn't watch the vid bruh he alr went over This & said the SAME THING

[@Pariah6950]

@@TheHylianBatman In a way, I think it is a cultural thing. A culture that does not want to acknowledge the influence of another culture on a series. So many things when localized in the past, including Sonic, had much of their overt cultural influences scrubbed. To make things feel less "weird and foreign". Hence bad boxart Mega Man and similar ilk, jelly donuts in Pokemon, and Western Sonic with a 'tude. And people who grow up with such bastardized things grow an attachment to them, and assert that they are no less true to the series than the original. Thus, no incentive to learn about the influences and make something truly faithful.

[@corruptedteka]

Probably the most constructive comment on this video ! I love love love the japanese things about Sonic, but that's not the whole, and dismissing that is deeply invalidating to every non japanese creator that depicts the franchise and character in the ways that they love. To me, the Sonic franchise is shaped by everything that's been in it, it's never been purely japanese, and I don't think it was ever intended to be so. Sonic Team has always had way more than just japanese influences in creating media for the franchise. The details of the franchise have always been a fuzzy thing, I think as long as the feel transfers, and as long as people understand the core appeal and ideology of Sonic, then those people are just as capable of making a great entry in the franchise as anyone japanese, no matter where they're from.

[@antoniosipalo1671]

Hey Pariah, i was wondering can you do a video about Sonic franchise and it's many similarities to the Dragon ball franchise.

[@JumperTV33]

Boom Eggman: “ARE YOU MAKING FUN OF ME?!?”