Sonic X Shadow Generations | Shadow - Part #4: What Can't Be Changed

[@KaneMarcks]

The thing is, Lewis, its more than just the logo of Shadow's own game, its just straight up the symbol that represents the black arms. Meaning every time you've hit Doom's Eye you've been getting a physical representation of their sigil

[@BonitoJoe111]

Big is the capybara of Sonic characters. Big, fluffy, chill, likes water, and everyone seems to naturally like him... even Shadow somehow

[@SmashBrosAssemble]

If the Sonic Movies introduce Big, just have him randomly show up in the background of scenes, or pop up out of nowhere during scenes.

[@connorburris4846]

Not even a movie version, just normal ass big the cat running past.

[@ChaddyFantome]

Heck they could just have a "have you seen this frog "Lost Pet" poster somewhere.

[@mintystingmoon4787]

And don’t even show him during marketing. Have him just be there and that’s it.

[@reginlief1]

Ew, no. We don’t need to make the films bad for a meme. Have him be a character that plays some role in the story, that’s fine. Don’t just have an unexplained character confusing the narrative.

[@nightmarearcade2663]

Oddly enough that sounds like something they'd do for a DVD extra.

[@alexjames4507]

I never thought the words “Sunset Heights Act 2 is my favorite 2D level in the game” would ever leave my mouth

[@diegomedina9637]

New to the franchise or something? Crisis City was considered the best level of OG Generation back in the day.

[@Aisubun]

This game making me enjoy Sunset Heights and Chaos Island is a miraculous feat

[@alexjames4507]

@@diegomedina9637I’ve been here since ‘04 lmao, just never expected to like a Forces level

[@7evan]

Same here man holy shit what a level

[@Sonicfalcon16]

RIGHT?! I was amazed what they could do with a forces level in this game from a game that had very little to work with

[@brantchristy3490]

One thing that wasn't mentioned that I want to bring up is how much I love Sunset Heights' use of the Death Egg Robots. In Forces, there was one QTE involving one, and the rest were in the background. Here, they're actually attacking you and destroying the platforms in both acts. The secret path that you access by freezing time and homing attacking the debris they throw is also my favorite secret in the game. The ending of act 2 was really satisfying as well. After 2 whole levels of them assaulting you, getting to beat the crap out of one of their arms and launching yourself to the end felt great. Easily my 2nd favorite level right behind Kingdom Valley.

[@JJ_R]

Big The Cat being the “Where’s Waldo” of the series sounds like a great idea. In SA2, you can see him in City Escape’s truck segment. Having him pop up randomly in hard-to-see spots could be interesting.

[@smashmaster521]

They outright explain that in this game as Big searching for Froggy...Again.

[@KeroKaminaX]

he also is a secret cameo you can findi n secret rings

[@CometX-ing]

As someone whose drawn Sonic characters since he was in Elementary School, it makes total sense to care about the models. Like I don't lose sleep over it, but subtle difference in design are noticeable. Like if you compare the two models there's a clear difference and it shouldn't really be all that surprising that people prefer one over the other.

[@marshallseldon4200]

Yet sonic fans treated like its the end of the world or some sh*t like that. Heaven forbid this fanbase be civil for once.

[@CometX-ing]

@ there are people who do, and its those people who typically get the most attention. But then you’ll have plenty of asshats who throw a fit any time someone states their preferences in even the most civil manner because god forbid people have an opinion that isn’t absolutely positive.

[@Kingdom850]

I think it is surprising people can care this much about slightly shorter quills or whatever. Sure, it does make you wonder why they felt the need to alter the design in the first place when its so minuscule most people won't notice it, but to whine about it to the point where it's a meme now is just another example of Sonic fans being the most embarrassing fandom out there.

[@Darkslayer1534]

We don't defend sonic fans here

[@LeafRazorStorm]

I'm pretty sure the reason you can't skip the Black Doom transitions is because they're hiding load times.

[@MuSICisLiFman]

I do like one of the duologue bits with Gerald is shadow mentioning he's acquainted with silver but Gerald chooses to not mess with time as shadows experiences and growth would go with it

[@alejandroperez9215]

Forces is my favorite because it gave us the Sonic IDW Comics, which have introduced Tangle, Whisper, Surge, and Kit!

[@jlev1028]

That's not a good reason to love a game. By that logic, Attack of the Clones is my favorite Star Wars movie because it gave us Tartakovsky's Clone Wars microseries. A product should stand on its own, and its quality doesn't improve based on what came out from it.

[@jlev1028]

Also, the IDW comics would've existed with or without Forces. Only the context regarding Eggman's whereabouts would've changed if that game didn't exist.

[@gova360]

My Favorite of the dialogues is that Maria talks about Shadows Coffee habits ❤ As a Coffee man myself that awesome 😎

[@MiguelMartinon]

The Big in Starfall Islands wasn't actually Big. It was the islands recreation using Sonic's memories of him.

[@jlev1028]

How do you know that?

[@MiguelMartinon]

@ sage tells that to sonic

[@MaxusFox23]

​@@jlev1028 Final Horizon optional dialogue from Sage.

[@Kleist_Polaris]

I think it's also insinuated that sonic for some reason finds Big his comfort character, and you know what? Valid

[@lionscave5256]

You want to know the best part about Big being here? He straight up confirms that his cameos in SA2 were a canon adventure he was having to find Froggy in the background. Gee, a side character that was having a background adventure while everything else was playing out in the main game? Wonder where I heard that concept before... Basically what I'm saying is I want Sonic X Big Adventure. Re-release the Adventure games for modern consoles, give us a new adventure with Big during the events of SA2. I'm certain someone out there is curious how he went from a normal fisherman in SA1 to an active combatant in Sonic Heroes (Me, I am someone). (Just...please no rewrites. The fanbase got heated over the changes in Generations, I don't want to see how it will respond to rewrites to Adventure.)

[@Ability-King-KK]

If Ian Flynn is the one writing it, you can bet that he's going to change the dialogue. The Japanese version of _Sonic x Shadow Generations_ keeps the same dialogue as the original release, meaning the changes are only in the English release.

[@smashmaster521]

As long as we get a faithful translation of the Japanese script, I'll be okay with Flynn rewriting Sonic Adventure...And even if it's clumsy like Sonic Generations 2024, I'll still be happy because the gameplay is more than enough to carry the experience.

[@AstroCreep95]

There was also that petition to get Ryan Drummond to voice Sonic in Super Smash Bros Brawl instead of Jason Griffith. This fanbase never ceases to amaze me.

[@Sonicfalcon16]

23:18 People want progress but people don't like change, however people don't want bad change.

[@AwkwardSegway95]

I only noticed the cut to black when going to Sonic Generations from the main menu, not when going to Shadow Generations.

[@ShiroTori47]

I'm with Lewis regarding liking the city environment in Sunset Heights. Along with the mix of city and "Sonic-esque" nature surrounding it, I imagine it being a lovely place before Eggman attacked. I'd be down to seeing a return to that place in future games, perhaps as a level where you go through a rebuilt city and the surrounding hills.

[@JomaXZ]

I prefer Sonic with longer quills, but I'm not gonna throw a hissy fit about the Frontiers model. I heard someone say the Frontiers models quills are like that to make Sonic's sillouette stand out more in 3D, which I can say, it does look like the quills do a lot when drawn in 2D from certain angles. While design nuances like this IS more important than you'd think, I don't really care as long as the devs and their animators make it look good.

[@MiaArianaMia]

5:15, That happened to me during Railway Canyon at one point. Thanks for reminding me, Gareth. I was almost to the final boss on Shadow, and then I saw that I missed a emblem.

[@squidbytes25]

My only issue with Shadow's controls is that I don't think his sidestep was properly synced with the level design. It always feels like when the level is goading me into sidestepping, I'm always either over or undershooting it Edit: Okay, now that I'm learning that this is a mechanic of the game...that's something that needed to be explained, because I straight up thought that my game was bugged. As a mechanic, it's fine, but it feels unnecessary, since I'm never going to sidestep outside of part of the level design built for sidesteping.

[@Eggscramblercomms]

It’s not a static distance per quick step anymore. You have to hold it for the right amount of time to get different distances now.

[@squidbytes25]

@Eggscramblercomms Wait...it's a mechanic? Why??? I'm never going to sidestep unless the level design is built for it with 3 or 5 lanes, and there's never a moment I need to go a percentage of that, it's just frustrating

[@Eggscramblercomms]

@ yeah, the difference between having it this way versus a normal quick step is unnoticeable outside of niche speedrunning tech. it’s completely pointless. But at the same time, it’s not really an intrusive problem either. The instant you know about it, every quick stepping section plays just the same as any other sonic game…

[@SonicmaniaVideos]

It's "frustrating" because it's different...and they didn't explain it. Shadow will basically slide forever in the direction you quick step if you hold the button. The only time it would be useful is during that Radical Highway interlude in Sunset Heights...the long corkscrew section with the poison on the floor. They probably didn't make use of it more because they didn't explain it, but it's another thing that makes Shadow distinct from Sonic control-wise. It would've been cool if they did use it more.

[@smashmaster521]

@@Eggscramblercomms Really? And here I thought it was just tied to Shadow having less traction than Sonic.

[@theshadowdirector]

Shadow Generations is running on the 2.0 version of the hedgehog engine, the same one used for The most recent games. Hence why only shadow has you choose between frame rate and resolution.

[@gmaster2647]

A thing they could've done on repeat playthroughs of levels is do something similar to The ARK Act 2. Subsequent times playing through it, you instead go through an alternate path if you don't have the Doom Wing power. They could've had it so that the levels with the Black Doom interruptions could've had alternate pathways to skip them, with an option to go back to them if you wish.

[@gameman250]

I mean, once you unlock Doom Wing there are two separate recordings for whether you choose to do the stage with wings or without. It ain't much... actually, that's just padding to make us S rank all the levels a second time. Damn you, SEGA!

[@fusion1801]

@@gameman250 you don't have to s rank all levels twice, even then with how fun the levels are i don't see the issue tbh.

[@KeroKaminaX]

fun fact: one of the Big the Cat pieces of dialogue confirms that all the big cameos across hte games (SA2, Secret Rings, etc.) canonically happened

[@UDPlaythroughs1990]

Sonic Forces if it was good oh wait it's in this game. I like that the Death Egg Sentinels are more involved in this version. The Red Gate Bridge appears in the level completely anhiliated

[@Mario9919DX]

Ryan REALLY needs to use Chaos Control whenever he gets the full meter. He'll have an easier time at some parts and getting S Ranks.

[@lucasmartinez5703]

I don't think he cares enough.

[@SonicPrince360]

THANK YOU! That's been bugging me this whole time! I get he hasn't played Sonic for a while, but I've seen playthroughs of newbies utilizing it more than he has!

[@Kingdom850]

It's not that deep. Not only is it his first playthrough, but I'm pretty sure we're all here to listen to the guys talk about the game not study the gameplay on screen.

[@pcb1175]

@@Kingdom850it would be better if the gameplay on screen was competent. It’s like watching a film where the camera is out of focus

[@abrahampena1263]

@@lucasmartinez5703to be fair, this was his first time playing the game as he was recording it

[@AHYL88]

I mean Superstars was massively overpriced for what it was; at £55 when it launched it cost more than most first party Nintendo games and several times more than Sonic Mania which was ridiculous. And when you launch something like that and ask us to pay such a big sum for it, it needs to deliver, which it completely failed to do. Sure it got massively discounted but the damage was already done.

[@JH-xc9we]

Yeah I think the price shouldn't have been $60 but years from now when it's the same price as any other Sonic game, the game will have to be looked at on what it is without the steep price. I hope then it gets some actual praise, cause I think it's a great 2d sonic game.

[@lupinthenerd439]

"It failed to deliver" When MF don't use the emerald powers (which both single player campaigns are BASED around)

[@TARDISES]

10:54 Commenting on the gameplay for a moment... I believe it is actually possible to use Doom Blast to rip that Death Egg Robot's fist right off the rest of the arm, and send it flying.

[@SonicmaniaVideos]

Of course. It is possible, but Ryan just kept holding forward so the homing attack prompt didn't show up.

[@ALloydRH]

I'm pretty sure that's the only time you can use Doom Blast on something that isn't a Black Arms.

[@TARDISES]

@@ALloydRH Memphis.

[@ALloydRH]

@@TARDISES true

[@elae4051]

If Forces is the Thor 2 of Sonic, what's the Ant-Man 2 and 3 of Sonic? Btw as an aside I will never understand the love for 06's Long Sonic model. That shit looked bad then and it looks bad now.

[@pcb1175]

Generations 3DS is Ant Man & the wasp (average game that came out immediately after a great one), Lost World is the Quantumania of the series, in that it boasted how it’s going to change the direction of the series, only to flop & for them to do a 180 back to nostalgia.

[@elae4051]

@pcb1175 Honestly that could also go to Boom because that one had as much boasting going around, the only difference is Boom the cartoon is actually funny unlike Quantumania

[@smashmaster521]

06's models aren't the same as the models from Unleashed to Generations. Those models are what people want back...Mainly for Sonic. The shorter quills make him look too much like his Classic self, which is both nostalgia pandering and redundant whenever he shares the room with Classic Sonic.

[@diegomedina9637]

No Gareth! Don't make Benji play Sonic games! Break the cycle, make him play good games for the love of God... Like Croc, which is the father of modern gaming babey!!!

[@ReverofEnola]

I DO agree with Ted in thinking Forces is a bad game. That being said I would still recommend it to newcomers or children though. I think most people's enjoyment of the game comes whether or not you liked Colors. I played a lot of Unleashed & Gens before Forces came out to prepare myself for the game on released only to be really disappointed with it. From Classic Sonic's awful gameplay to Modern Sonic's nerfed Boost gameplay, to the weird acceleration problem.

[@jlev1028]

Newcomers would be confused over the significance of Zavok, Metal Sonic, Chaos, and Shadow and wouldn't understand why Tails and Modern Sonic are familiar with Classic Sonic.

[@ReverofEnola]

@@jlev1028 True, but that would invest more into the franchise. Plus, I was mainly meaning from a casual play experience & what's currently available on modern consoles. Granted its not my first pick. Like this game & Mania would be stronger.

[@7evan]

People are alot harder on Colors these days after Forces I feel, like they tend to trace back everything they didn't like in Forces back to Colors. But like I argue that makes look Forces even worse in retrospect since you'd think they'd continue to interate from Generations instead.

[@losisansgaming2628]

9:24 well. Its probably being used as a clever way to hide loading

[@Aisubun]

Considering it's an entirely new area I would not be surprised. Another aspect of it is that the timer doesn't stop during those cutscenes too so idk if there will be an official skip added. Maybe mods could get around it but idk I'm not a programmer

[@Hazedragon97]

I really enjoyed Shadow Generations, but one thing that'll irk me is how little an impact Shadow's boost has on his base speed, at least compared to Sonic. In Sonic Generations, the boost really went off with a bang, like a literal sonicboom, but Shadow's just feels lesser than that. Just a minor nitpick though, so I guess I'm a perfect example of a Sonic fan.

[@mastermace7770]

Big the cat 🐈 is like Zoro he get lost for no reason.

[@Majin_151]

Speaking of mods there's already custom characters with a surge one that has custom voice lines There's also people picking it and discovering that there is basically switches to enable features that were in previous games along with people putting bosses in the hub world I highly expect this game to be the poster boy for moden sonic mods for a good while

[@losisansgaming2628]

21:30 i think its just that the remaster runs in hedgehog engine one, meanwhile the game select is in hedgehog engine 2, as it shares the exe file of shadow gens

[@anthonytamuzza591]

My fan theory is that Big the Cat is the omnipotent God of the Sonic universe and he likes hanging out with the gang.

[@jlev1028]

Then who's Chip? His bitch?

[@austin9568AuraMasterDX]

Well he does have a large Ring for a belt buckle

[@GoGojiraGo]

Ah, ignoring most of the game to finish it as fast as possible, classic Brain scratch.

[@ultimatespideyhero]

Funny enough, Modders have used that 2 EXEs as a way to load up the OG Generations PC version to get the mods back in since it's gonna be a bit before someone finds a way to import old stuff into the Remaster. On the topic of models tho, I am in the camp that the Unleashed-Frontiers model structure is good *but* I wouldn't be opposed to refreshed model sheets for the Sonic cast cause Knuckles being more Top heavy in Sonic Movie 2 just feels right to me and I'd love a game where the face animations could match the fan made models people have made in Blender. But that's also something that'd take manpower to overhaul and resources which might be more of an issue for Sonic Team specifically on budgets.

[@Chaos_Vergil]

I'm sorry, Ryan, but WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU NOT HOLDING DOWN THE DOOM SPEAR BUTTON TO LOCK ONTO MULTIPLE TARGET AND USING CHAOS CONTROL MORE!? CHRIST!! The commentary is still funny as usual. Keep it up, guys.

[@AdmiralOctopus]

21:40 That actually sorta screwed me over a little. My partner and I were streaming the game, and didn't know that selecting Sonic Generations opened a different .exe, so as we didn't account for that the first 10 or so minutes of the Sonic playthrough was just a blank screen. Audio still came through though, funnily enough. Thankfully we noticed before we finished Green Hill, but it was still a little annoying.

[@sonicsean34]

The irony of complaining about whiny nitpicking Sonic fans when we all experienced the cries of anguish in the commentary for the Sonic section of this LP for any change lol

[@SonicmaniaVideos]

There's no irony there... FTA was being obnoxious, but he was clearly joking...

[@Frank-zb7zh]

Honestly, I think the shadow section is even more painful.

[@alexmcneill6445]

I'm gonna be honest: I do not like how Sonic Generations controls; especially in hindsight. See, I only played Generations ONCE and that was a decade ago. I remember loving the game then, but I didn't play it a bunch after (mainly cuz I borrowed the game and didn't own it for myself. Buying games for myself was troublesome back then). So when the game got re-released with Shadow Gens., I was excited to go back into it. However, I played a lot of Sonic Frontiers and I definitely jumped straight to Shadow Generations. So when I played Sonic Gens. proper, I'm just feeling...annoyed and empty with how the game controls...specifically with modern Sonic. I mean, Classic Sonic has issues too, but I feel Modern Sonic has it the worst. Sonic feels...WAY too stiff and it aggravates the hell out of me. I don't even think a double jump would levitate my issues either. Like, I be trying to homing attack or boost and because Sonic himself hasn't turned around entirely, he'll go in the direction I don't want him to. This messes with me so much to the point of me hating it. This is definitely on retrospect because I've been exposed to controls I prefer. Then again, I also don't have nostalgia feelings towards Generations like everyone else does who may have been playing the superior PC port or what have you. But this is just how I feel personally. I don't like stiff Sonic. Unleashed (PS3/360)/Generations is stiff Sonic, sorry. Still good games but I find it hard to get back to these games because of the likes of Shadow Generations and Frontiers to an extent.

[@lucasmartinez5703]

Exactly. Sonic and Shadow are light flexible athletic characters. Their gameplay and handling should reflect that. They shouldn't feel like you're controlling a tank. That's one of the reasons why people prefer how Sonic controls in the Adventure games. After playing Frontiers myself, that's more in line with how Sonic should feel. Loosey goosey.

[@diegomedina9637]

No, I'm with you. Sonic controls horribly in Generations to the point where I gave up getting an annoying red ring on Modern City Escape only to play all the way through Unleashed.

[@abrahampena1263]

@@diegomedina9637generations controls are still better than unleashed controls

[@diegomedina9637]

@@abrahampena1263 Actually... The Werehog controls better than Generations Sonic. There I said it.

[@stanzacosmi]

the problem with the "i want to skip the cutscenes" is actually the fact that they mask a loading screen on switch. It'd be unfair to switch players tonot have the option to skip but every other platform does.

[@RoboticEdward]

I...don't get this. If you're on the better hardware you should be rewarded for it. I say this as a Switch lover eagerly awaiting the Switch 2. Modders on PC have already figured out how to disable the transitions so I personally don't see why they shouldn't do it even if Switch users have to be left behind.

[@stanzacosmi]

@@RoboticEdward leaderboards

[@gameman250]

I'm curious as to what Ted sees as a "mid" sort of game. A "not terrible but not great" kind of experience. Cause I think Forces is still mediocre. It's a functioning game for sure, but it could have done so much more with itself. _That_ would be its biggest downfall.

[@Frank-zb7zh]

More recent Pokemon games, probably. I’m sure he enjoys them, but It’s also kinda imposible to not notice the problems.

[@diegomedina9637]

​@@Frank-zb7zhYou know what's funny? I've been playing old pokemon recently... And all of them are mid at best with funnily enough X and Y/Oras being the best games overall. And before someone tells me "X and Y/Oras sucks because they took out the post game" we have actual evidence of GameFreak removing all those post game thing because y'all never did them. Like there's a bunch of post game stuff in HGSS that I bet almost no one knew about it.

[@smashmaster521]

@@diegomedina9637 No, they took that out because their target audience spends too much time on their phones to invest in the post-game...Yes, seriously.

[@usseaglencc956]

"Shadow, you look grim. Are you all right?" I think you just answered your own question, Maria. Also, why did those enemies attacking her have...um...cake?

[@JH-xc9we]

I'm with Clement on this. While Shadow Gens is fun, I still prefer Sonic Gens. The game just has so much more life and energy to it and I find it's more satisfying to do a perfect run in both classic and modern levels than Shadow Gens. Also I really don't like how you have to do the 2 challenge gates each level before the bosses, really slows down the pace.

[@elae4051]

@@JH-xc9we I think Shadow Gens was missing like one more level. Like I'm perfectly content with the six he gets, but outside the movie level I feel like he needed another one from like Colors or Black Knight

[@jlev1028]

@@elae4051 He wasn't in either of those games. Lancelot doesn't count.

[@UDPlaythroughs1990]

Or the Black Comet

[@BH-98]

@@jlev1028he was in colours DS

[@smashmaster521]

I love both games equally...But I will NEVER go for 100% completion ever again. I didn't even get 100% on Shadow Gens art gallery because the Doom Space Challenges are a pain in the ass to complete thanks to Chaos Control being locked.

[@alimowla3204]

2:10 yea john, he MIGHT be part of sonic's memories, meaning there's still a chance he was actually there, and with this game confirming that big gets around, i here by reject final horizons' explanation. not gonna lie, the radical highway/doctor strange section in sunset heights reminds me more of lethal highway than radical highway, since the latter is located above dark waters (pretty sure) most of the time whereas the former is directly in a city with lots of buildings, some of which are tilting due to the purple black arms goo on them.

[@UDPlaythroughs1990]

Also the cylinder gave me Black Comet vibes.

[@Err0_Will]

I'll disagree that disliking a game makes it bad just like how liking a game doesn't make it good. There's games i despise but i still think are good like Dragon Quest 1, Samus Returns or Tears of the Kingdom and games i adore but think are trashfires like Sonic 06, Gen 1 Pokemon or a lot of liscenced games. I feel like this is a mistake a lot of people make, understandable though because "how can you like something you think is bad?" and all that, but it's just that something doesn't suit your taste. That being said, I think Forces very much is right at that line of being bad, but just barely. Tl;dr: Quality =/= Enjoyment

[@smashmaster521]

Agreed. The Sonic Adventure games remain my favorite Sonic games to this day, but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant to their flaws. I'm just not bothered by them and find the complaints overblown even if I can see the argument (Hello, nerfed Emerald Radar from SA2).

[@Santoryu90]

Regardless, while I wouldn’t say Forces is really good I’d still say the game of itself gets more hated it really deserves.

[@7evan]

Yeah most of my top Sonic games are like 7, 6 and even 5/10s if I'm being 100% objective about them. I fully acknowledge their flaws and I do not defend them when someone else plays and doesn't like them but they're still games I personally find so much enjoyment out of. We're all not a Hive Mind like the Black Arms guys

[@metashade4218]

22:44 Ugh RadicalSoda is the fucking worst when it comes to that complaint…

[@BH-98]

He is bad, but I remember the days of Mariotehplumber

[@diegomedina9637]

Isn't that the guy who click baits kids with sexy anime waifus in every thumbnail? Why are you taking that person's opinion? It would be like going to Boogie for weight loss advice.

[@ShiroTori47]

I used to enjoy his stuff back when I first found his channel in 2017 (click baity thumbnails aside), but last I checked his content had such a miserable and bitter vibe to it. I've moved on to watching different folks, but it's a shame if he's still like that.

[@peliukun8164]

@@diegomedina9637 we really goin' with 'guy has anime profile pic so opinion dismissed' around here? some things really never do change. he has good points every now and again

[@BH-98]

@@ShiroTori47 yeah he’s just another unpleasable “back in my day Sonic was good & everything since Colours was bad” KZbinr that I’m just tired of by this point.

[@Mojo1356]

An interesting punishment for missing the doom crest. Still, the game always tells you to attack him, so you should never be running into that problem unless you’re sucking more than simple sucking.

[@DaisyPhoxtrot]

I'm fine with the Doom Surf sending you left or right, my problem is that it seems inconsistent. I swear I will press the Left Bumper for the same amount of time two separate times and it'll send me different distances each time.

[@SuperSpindasher1991]

“Is the movie out?” 💀

[@lurker1316]

Sadly, when you try to invoke the Brainscratch curse on purpose, it has the opposite effect.

[@SmashTheOni]

See, Sonic Forces is a game that I wouldn't call bad because I don't feel anything from it. It's nothing. The last actually bad game was probably Somic Boom, and if we're only talking main games, the last one I actually felt any kind of contempt for was Sonic 4

[@TehJellyLord]

My thing with the current model for Sonic and the rest of the cast in these games is just that they simply don’t look as good to me. I like the darker shade of blue, I like the longer quills, I like how Sonic’s face looked before Unleashed gave him this weird overly 3D muzzle that no longer curved with the eyes, etc. it’s a bunch of small things that add up to me just disliking the current model. And because the base of the model itself is from 2008, it is not as robust as it could be from an animation perspective. Like Shadow Gens’ animations look great, and they’re finally caught up to current animation standards, but still these are cartoony characters so I’d like to see more exaggerated expressions and poses that we know these character designs are capable of. So I’d honestly just like them to make a brand new set of models from scratch and work with those for a while. I wouldn’t expect perfection, but I would like a refresh yah know? EDIT: My issues with the models are much the same as my issues with certain characters being characterized slightly differently in modern games. Like Sonic, instead of just being this cool guy who likes to explore and help people, he’s now the guy who is wise cracking constantly like he is Spider-Man and giving long speeches about his philosophy as a hero and talking out people’s issues instead of just showing them by being who he is. And I like Spider-Man, but Sonic is not Spider-Man. And Sonic originally did crack some jokes here and there, but it was never something he did constantly like he does now. Im glad at least that Shadow Gens nails Shadow and all the other main characters of this story, but we still have characters like Tails and Knuckles who have just kinda been lame for a long time now. Tails is just the tech guy and Knuckles is just the tough meathead that nobody takes seriously, whereas Tails used to be a timid guy who came into his own and now fights as his own hero and Knuckles used to be the strong and calculating loner.

[@Frank-zb7zh]

That description of the characters alone tells me that you get your opinions from Pariah.

[@diegomedina9637]

Sir. This is a Wendy's.

[@Frank-zb7zh]

@@diegomedina9637 Yeah, I have seen this types of fans in videos where they complain more about a sonic game not having their personal preferences instead of if it’s actually any good.

[@peliukun8164]

@@Frank-zb7zh flanderizing the characters differently doesn't make em any good either and pariah quite frankly is a coward and makes surface-level people-pleaser videos. i still agree with the point

[@MeteorFalcon]

11:28 Ill disagree with Ted with an example: I dont like playing Monster Hunter, I dont want to play Monster Hunter, I actively disliked my time when playing Monster Hunter. And I have no desire to play it in the future. Is Monster Hunter a bad game?

[@Club_Weeg]

I'm not sure whether the blame is the internet specifically or the American grading system (or maybe both?) that we can't let games that are in the 4-6/10 score ranges just be mediorce games and not label them fully bad cuz I agree with John and Gareth that Forces is just a mediorcre product that sits in that 5/10 spot to me.

[@lucasmartinez5703]

Well to you it might as well be.

[@jlev1028]

No, it just means the game wasn't for you. I would hate playing Civilization, but I wouldn't dismiss its qualities.

[@TheCynicalGhost]

This logic doesn't work because it just sounds like you don't like Monster Hunter. If you were a fan of Monster Hunter and a specific game in the series was one that you didn't like, had no desire to play, and didn't enjoy it, then I think that's ground for you to think it's a bad game.

[@MeteorFalcon]

@@TheCynicalGhost Change the series then, I like the old God of War games. But neither of the modern ones. Are the new GoW games bad games then?

[@AhkoRC]

The unskippable cutscenes are my biggest gripe in this game. I gave up trying to S rank the final boss because of how much time was just cutscenes.

[@Gaia_BentosZX5]

Oh god, imagine being a sonic fan in the Sonic Boom era where the blue rat had BLUE arms. I wanted to dissasociate from the fanbase so bad, and Forces was my ticket out of there.

[@Winder_Storm]

How did they manage to make sunset city not only a good level but an amazing one

[@sontho6995]

They made the level longer.

[@Winder_Storm]

@ bruh yeah obsviouly lol but there’s still a lot of more factors

[@sontho6995]

@@Winder_Storm They took levels from other forces. Sunset heights wasn't the only city level in forces.

[@Aktedya1-jt7vw]

It was already such a cool location in Forces. They just actually did something with it this time

[@LeoYoshi54321]

I replayed Sonic Forces like 2 days ago, it's just mid. I don't think there's anything spectuarly bad about it, I don't think there's much good, it is bland and boring and not much else. Chemical Flow does go hard though

[@tsyumamatsuthehavenofguard32]

Honestly i still feel like big was a last second inclusion in place of emerl or gemerl, as a way to get it done on time, the diary references the fact that shadow had to nuetralize him, the dark beginnings intro has gemerl assault shadow as a reminder of his past, a good 40 percent of concept art has sonic battle based concept art, while in stark contrast big has not even been mentioned once and if we are going by connecting areas, HE'S NEVER BEEN TO KINDOM VALLEY, he's been to chaos island but for some reason rouge is there. I feel like a simple flip of swapping the city escape cutscene with big's would have instantly made it more cohesive but it ain't that simple i guess to sega

[@FinallyAlone]

Red eyes black hedgehog.

[@selassieaspen9940]

If Ted thinks Forces is bad, maybe we need to remind him to of Superman 64 he played. Years ago.

[@jlev1028]

I used to call Sonic Forces the Star Wars Episode IX of the franchise, due its heavy key jangling and terribly written story and dialogue. Now, I think it's more akin to The Acolyte: painfully average, corporately produced, not worth going back to even for the occasional laugh.

[@northwindkey]

I look at it more like Josstice League. A mishmash of a story written for a darker tone with a lighter dialogue writer doing it.

[@alexalicea5481]

23:00 we need to bring back the sonic 06 models mocap and all

[@Superminecraftsonic]

I don't like using the Doom Surf power all that much because you move forward automatically in it making it hard to move Precisely.

[@ALloydRH]

For some reason the Shadow emblems you get from Black Doom remind me of the Courage emblems from Billy Hatcher. Also Ryan sitting on full Chaos Control meter for entire levels really bugs me. Granted it is a mechanic that most players won't be used to having at first.

[@Supersonic415]

shadow generations is too good

[@FANE_YT0]

Sonic Kiwami with Big the Cat Everywhere,

[@MasterSquirrel993]

The whole argument of whether Sonic Forces is "bad" or "mediocre" leaves me so damn conflicted. Because in my eyes, Forces' worst aspect is that it's entirely forgettable. It's perfectly playable, it's just really, _really_ bland. And I agree with Johnny that a forgettable game isn't automatically bad by default. But on the _other_ hand, let's think for a minute about what this game's premise has inspired: A playable Chaos 0 fight; a fanmade, voice-acted epilogue; a franchise-spanning _animated fanfilm,_ and the _entire groundwork and initial framing device for the IDW comic line._ A comic series, lest we forget, was met much with so much approval from Sega and fans alike, that it became _canon._ While within Forces itself... we got More Like Sand Hill Zone, 0% color saturation Grand Metropolis, and the climactic line of "Something you wouldn't understand, because you don't have any friends!" And whenever I'm reminded of the amount of missed potential that Sonic Forces, the actual _game,_ squandered, not even because of a rushed development time like 06, but seemingly because of pure _indifference_ towards its own premise and gimmicks... look, I'm just saying: No Sonic game with the hook of *Eggman wins* should have wound up with a unanimous reaction of "eh."

[@Superminecraftsonic]

You can't fast travel to the challenge gates in Sonic portion of the game.

[@JennyBlaze253]

Honestly, i gotta agree with Ted here. I find Forces to be a generally bad game. It may not be the most broken gameplay wise, but the stages are not fun to play, the story is garbage, and I have a bad time overall playing it.

[@northwindkey]

I will say, I agree with Ted on Forces but only because of Classic Sonic. If it were just Modern Sonic and Avatar, it’d be fine. Not great, but fine. A little bit worse than Colors but not much. Classic Sonic in Forces is bad enough to drag a 6-6.5 game down to a 3-4 game.

[@MegaDarkness5000]

If they got rid of classic sonic and had full focus on the quality of the Sonic and Avatar stages, it would have been such a better game.

[@BlackDeathBlade]

I would honestly agree with Ted with saying that Forces is closer to a bad game than a mediocre game. Because of how much worse the controls are, how uninspiring the stages and bosses are, and all around just does everything Sonic Generation does but significantly worse, it's pretty bad. I'd rather say that Shadow the Hedgehog is objectively better than Sonic Forces flaws and all. Shadow 2005 can be a guilty pleasure game for many too. The Soundtrack of Forces is better than Shadow by a lot except for Shadow's Vocal tracks, but overall I think a game with a lack of identity is worse than a game that has an identity but is fundamentally flawed. Avatar is fun, but it does not save the rest of the game.

[@supercoolsonic]

And complaining about the challenge gate things from the boss gate? Dear lord, you people are impatient AF.

[@smashmaster521]

No, they have a point. Why do you have to go to the Boss Gate to make the Challenge Gates appear when it makes more sense to complete the Challenges and THEN go to the Boss Gate?

[@supercoolsonic]

@@smashmaster521 I just don't understand why it's worth complaining about so much. Would it be better if all the gates are active before the boss gate is reached? Sure. But it's not worth pulling your hair out over.

[@smashmaster521]

@@supercoolsonic True, but it just seems like SEGA deliberately going out of their way to make the player waste time. Plus, I kind of ran into that problem myself with Metal Overlord, so I side with the complaints even if they're being blown out of proportion.

[@shadeknight6537]

I can explain Johnny's point better so that Ted can understand. Forces isn't a "bad" game because, fundamentally, every part of the game is functional for a casual player, there's little in the way of poor game design like a bad camera. The issue is that nothing about the game is interesting, both in terms of gameplay and narrative. So while it's hard to call Forces objectively bad because everything works as intended, it's just as hard to call it good because everything is bland and unmemorable.

[@Nerom99]

I'm kinda in a similar position as Ted. From an ''objective'' standpoint, Forces is mediocre. However, for me, it's mediocre to where it's unbearable.

[@Sonicfalcon16]

9:32 The thing is people were so happy for mania that a sequel felt like the natural progression and yearn for but then instead of continuing having a good relationship with the mania team, Sega pivots to the team who just had a disastrous balan wonderworld train-wreak. And I think the reason was the mania team asked for money or they asked for something and sega said no.

[@lupinthenerd439]

The reason is because Evening star (the mania team) wanted to do their thing and ended up developing Penny's big breakout, despite Izuka asking for mania 2. It's not some cospiratory money BS. Both sonic team and evening star are still in a good relationship and Superstars was supervised by Naoto oshima who is also the game director for Sonic CD, and you can feel it. This "itz the balan devs" is a stupid argument and you can feel it if you ever played the game in the first place

[@Sonicfalcon16]

@@lupinthenerd439 I'm glad to hear the relationship between them is still healthy. I need to pick up superstars someday. Because I liked CD and enjoyed that quite a bit. but yeah "itz the balsn devs" is a stupid argument. Probably more positive implication took place. "You guys want to make a sonic game?" "Sure" Good night I'm going to bed its almost 1am

[@ShiroTori47]

@@Sonicfalcon16 I'd say Superstars is pretty fun overall, but some of the late-game bosses are borderline sadistic (possible skill issue on my part). Get it on sale though, it's not quite worth its full price.

[@lupinthenerd439]

@Sonicfalcon16 have a nice nap

[@Sonicfalcon16]

@@ShiroTori47 It seems many people thought so too. So much that Sega had to have a talk why super stars didn't do mania numbers and they said because super Mario wonder came out. But really I think it's because people didn't see the mania peoples name on it at all.

[@amethyst4392]

Both acts of Sunset Heights in this game have infinitely better arrangements of its OST than the game it came from. Forces is aggressively mediocre but I don’t see it as an awful game, just a bland one that didn’t get to make use of its more interesting concepts.

[@joey-jw3rj]

To Comment on the Superstars opinions=I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Superstars a Terrible Game. It has Really Terrible Aspects like the Co-op (Which is ironic given that it's the main selling point), Trip's Story, The Boss Fights, and the Final Bosses, but I wouldn't call the entire game bad. If you're just playing the Standard Story Mode by yourself, then it's an OK time. I also wouldn't sell it for Full Price, definitely get it when it's On Sale. To Comment on the Forces Opinions and how one would define a Bad Game=Forces is definitely a Mediocre game. There is no question about it, but I wouldn't call it a Bad game because most of the things that pisses me off about Forces is how much wasted potential there was and how underutilized the Phantom Ruby was. Factor all of that out, you get a game that is short, but functional and offers some moments of enjoyment, even if those moments are just short bursts. If i'm calling a game Bad, it's because the Game is Horribly designed levels, outright broken due to glitches and shoddy programming, Challenging in a Bullshit and Unfair way that the expects the player to know the solution through Foresight or Unnecessary Trial and Error. Things that actively piss me off to know end is what makes a Bad game because those things are the Polar Opposite of what makes a Good Game. It's why it baffles me how people go around saying Forces is Worse than 06, I get people have different opinions but that just feels wrong to me. You can't convince me that Forces, a game that while being a big step backwards from Generations, is technically more polished and much more comfortable to play is somehow worse than 06, the game that almost killed the franchise for good because of how Unpolished, broken, and poorly designed it is. Apologies for this part of the comment being longer but there are some thoughts and opinions I needed to get out of my system, regardless of how Unpopular they might be. To comment on the Opinion on Sonic Fans= Yeah there are very different types of fans across the entire fandom with very differing opinions and a lot of people do not like change of any kind. I personally don't mind change as long as it leads to a positive outcome in the future instead of being needless and taking steps backwards just for the sake of being different. This sorta wraps back around to the Rewrites in Sonic Generations. Some of the dialogue changes are interesting while others seem questionable at best, but like I said in a previous part, it's one of those things that mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things because Generations' story is still a Nothing Burger, regardless if you're playing the OG version with the Original cutscenes and Dialogue or the Remaster with the Rewritten Dialogue, so any complaints I do have with specific rewrites would just be nitpicks at the end of the day, and unfortunately, there are a lot of people who consider any kind of nitpicks as massive deal breakers

[@gameman5804]

Sunset Heights Act 1 was a disappointment. It’s better than the original, sure. The Robots actually do shit and there’s more to the level design, but man… I really wish they expanded on what Forces tried to do with the war theme… but then Black Doom hogs half of the fucking level. I wouldn’t have minded if Infinite made a cameo appearance here at least. Like when Shadow was in that scene, I wouldn’t have minded to hear Sonic being beaten by Infinite in the background with Tails’ cry out for Sonic (Not “Sonic Help Me” before people bring that up). I don’t know, I don’t like how they did Radical Highway in this game. I’d rather they dedicate act 1 to a normal stage like in Base Gens.

[@ShiroTori47]

Yeah, I don't mind the ARK stage having the Radical Highway section since it's the place where Shadow first encounters Black Doom. But I would have liked to fully revel in the absolute glow-ups both Rail Canyon and Sunset Heights received without Shadow's toxic father dragging us back to SA2 again. It took something away from Radical Highway being the final level too, as while it was a great finale I just kinda felt "welp, we're back here again".

[@gameman5804]

@ I actually think Radical Highway should’ve been Shadow’s First Stage after the Ark.

[@Kyonne25]

Hey man if you can complain about the shitty new dialogue in generations i can complain about Sonic's shitty quills in frontiers

[@Frank-zb7zh]

Yeah, but everyone else, including Gareth himself, thought that it was annoying. And so is to complain always be complaining about sonics model.

[@diegomedina9637]

​@@Frank-zb7zhIt's annoying because it's a really badly done job. Some old lines clashes with some of the new ones, they didn't even updated the animations of some of them, they change some insignificant lines but kept other ones that could have been easily changed. It's all a badly rushed job... While the Sonic Frontiers model debacle is Sonic Fans unwillingness to escape the acoustic allegations. Like they literally sound like Chris Chan during the Sonic Boom incident at this point.

[@Aisubun]

Imo, a bad game doesn't necessarily need to be broken. Every aspect of Forces is bad, the gameplay, the controls, the story, and thr animation. Just because it isn't rage inducing or broken doesn't make it a good game imo. Like, a bit more controversial here, but Fire Emblem Three Houses is a perfectly functional game. But when I hate the map design, characters, story, and visual, why is it wrong for my opinion to be "this is a bad game"?

[@SmashBrosAssemble]

Sonic Forces isn’t bad, it’s just an incredibly mediocre, it’s a working functioning polished game that’s just dull & unremarkable, it’s not like Secret Rings or Free Riders which are just broken unpolished trash that doesn’t work.

[@Comkill117]

It's still shocking to me that a Forces level is actually fun. Because I’ll be honest, I’m with Ted Forces fucking sucks. The control is awful, the story is awful, the soundtrack isn’t good, and the level design is the worst in the mainline games. Also the reason Shadow is different to my understanding is that it’s running on the Hedgehog Engine 2 vs. the HE1 that base Sonic Gens runs on.

[@megamike15]

sonic forces isnt bad it's mediocre. the last actual bad sonic game was rise of lyric.

[@Sonicfalcon16]

Its been over 10 years so much like 06 when he gets back to that game again he'll love it. To quote him in that commentary

[@p.j.marshall8472]

FIRST

[@p.j.marshall8472]

I can die happy now 😂

[@TheCynicalGhost]

That tangent on Forces is an odd one because I think it does enough to be considered bad. Bad controls, bad story, bland visuals, bad level design, little replayability, meh music, and most importantly, an obvious downgrade from the previous games with the same gameplay style. Personally, I don't hate Forces but I do think it's a bad game even if it doesn't make me mad like it does for other Sonic fans.

[@UmQasaann]

My favorite one for modern Sonic is hentai quills from mariotehplummer

[@squirtkipfan0136]

i unironically love sunset heights in this game which is impressive given the source material

[@ThePumpDaddyC]

The return of Ted the thearapist. This Really is nostalgic.