Recording Drums, Part I: Overhead Mic Placements Compared

[@johnreid1234]

3:08 XY 3:20 ORTF 6:22 Spaced Pair 6:35 Glyn Johns 7:16 Mono

[@TheHouseofKushTV]

Man, Glyn Johns always gets the tone of the snare in a place I love. I think if you skewed your centerline to align with the kick-snare axis you'd get a more focused image on the kick. I'm glad the drummer's qualuuds kicked in for the session, keeps him nicely in the pocket!

[@SonicScoop]

Yes, if we were making this video again, we’d definitely show the 45 degree trick for spaced pair. It gives the cymbals less stereo spread, but does center both kick and snare. Thanks for the kind words. Means a lot coming from you guys! -Justin

[@sottilario7213]

@@SonicScoop That would be awesome to show. Thanks a lot for this one!

[@Gornagik]

I think part of the reason Glyn Johns sounds so good in this video is that it captures the hi-hat more than any other technique. Definitely something to consider

[@D4nNy777]

Glyn Johns was my fav

[@jaygroov]

Thanks for the video! One quick tip for the next one: When you do a comparison with different techniques, pleas play the clips continuously right next to each other. Always, no exceptions. No fades, no breaks. At least do this at the end of video when everything has been explained already. Any break between different setups makes the listening and difference comparison very difficult for the human brain as the context is immediately lost. Playing the clips continuously helps a ton especially when we're dealing with very subtle differences.

[@youryella]

You can ask him. Please, will you ask him? Don't appreciate your demands. And yes, I would to see your ideas implemented.

[@harveylopezt]

For more precise comparison: XY 3:08 ORTF 3:20 Spaced pair 6:22 Glyn Johns 6:35 Mono 7:16

[@chazzhill-hayr6281]

How do you do that btw? The links to the time in the video? Thanks :-)

[@rcboffa]

All you have to do is put the time in your comment...the rest is magic... 5:10

[@chazzhill-hayr6281]

hahaha. Oh it's that easy! Damn. lol.

[@SteveStockmalMusic]

Thanks for doing that !!!

[@billyg.7032]

Awesome how well you can notice the stereo, kind of panning sound across the drums!. Very nice video.

[@schoovaertssimon7904]

we're listening to overheads only?

[@sockysworld8010]

Glyn Johns method sounds great especially for rock. Mono sounds more hip hop and R'n'B. Spaced paired would be great for some far out music maybe inspired by the 60's. XY is quite snare heavy i prefer the ORTF which is more balanced and classic Awesome video!!

[@dcp10200]

I exclusively use Glyn Johns when I overhead mic drums. Generally I'll use a ribbon mic that points over the floor tom and an omni-directional small diaphragm condenser centered over the snare to really get the height in the overhead.

[@ROCKSTARCRANE]

Exellent presentation. As an engineer with 47 years' experience, I can appreciate this. Important to note that the least amount of phase cancellation will be with the X-Y.

[@BillBrolse]

The Glyn Johns method made that snare sound great. Could an additional overhead help with the width?

[@GlitchComputer]

that Glenn John is so new to me..have to try it out!

Great video , nice comparisons , sad drummer :(

[@StreetJazz84]

Is it just me or does the drummer look like he dies a little every time he ends the fill? Great video! Or "tute" as they say.

[@chameleonedm]

It's almost as if he just hates to stop playing

[@SteveStockmalMusic]

No he’s like... “oh man, here comes those damn roadies again, wish they’d just leave my bloody mics alone” Lolololol Oooorrr... perhaps he just got the punchline to that drummer joke he heard 5 years ago. Oooohhhhhhh

[@johnmdoll]

haha, I thought the exact same thing when I watched this before reading your comment.

[@jakubowskij]

That drummer played with Jeff Buckley. Incredible drummer

[@mdoyleproductions9358]

I can't stop laughing at this, lol.

[@dsrecs]

For Comparison; XY 3:07 ORTF 3:19 Spaced pair 6:20 Glyn Johns 6:34

[@galgogergo]

dsrecs this should be the top comment!

[@harveylopezt]

dsrecs There is always a good youtuber. Thanks man.

[@Honeythebeebee]

dsrecs you forgot the mono one! 7:16

[@BraveMusicOficial]

Nobody likes the mono one Lol! Just kidding!

[@wyrdness1]

You forgot one... Recorderman which can be seen as a modification of Glyn Johns. You have the mic directly above the snare, but the other mic instead of sneaking in behind the floor tom is just behind the drummer's shoulder.

[@itsricksnowden]

this is a really great video. thank you

[@mrjackieson]

George Massenburg made a series of videos where he talked about centering the kick and the snare between the overheads. That way both kick and snare stay centered in the stereo image and phase is kept at a minimum. This can be used with spaced pair or XY. It doesn't make sense to space the pair directly in front of the kit - the snare ends up off to the side in the overheads and centered on the close mic, smearing your stereo image. Check out his video on micing drums. He invented the parametric EQ, he's pretty smart. I've tried this technique many times and it's much better sounding than centering in front of kit. Stand in front of the kit and move until the kick and snare are directly in line: that's your center point. Space your overheads equidistant from this point.

[@donpakka]

I've been doing that ever since I watched the video and it's so much cleaner than any of the above techniques. I do minimal miking these days . A stereo pair aligned according to the G.M. technique, a kick drum mic and a ribbon pointing into the snare that captures both the top and bottom and combines them.

[@JeserNoob]

Is this a copypasta?

[@sl3102]

The Recorder Man technique is similar to Glyn Johns but takes both kick and snare in consideration, and it does a pretty good job. It sounds tighter and is less sensitive to bad rooms.

[@declanmurray]

Thanks man great video!

[@comfortsound713]

I feel that this video will help everyone who wants to try drum mic'ing. And, as a person who was so impressed, I want to upload and share this video on my channel with Korean translation if it's possible. That's because I want to try studying about the audio recording in more details. I'm planning to translate another videos about recording more and more for Korean, and of course, for me. I wish you will let me that. This is Peter Park from South Korea. Thank You :D

[@ricksalt6860]

Good sounding room , kinda puts the High Ceiling a Must theory to bed . Really nice touch Parker , probably sound good playing any kit . Great video , top quality audio .

[@SonicScoop]

Hi all! If you're liking Justin's instructional videos here on SonicScoop, you might like his new video course on mixing, called "Mixing Breakthroughs". Check it out at mixingbreakthroughs.com/

[@musicbySTIX]

Thank you very much for this video! It was extremely well done! Very thorough! It really helped a lot! =D

[@ChuckHipolitho]

Thanks. But it would be better if we are listening only to overhead pair of mics. Glyn John is always my favourite.

[@TylerSocholotuik]

I second this. As someone who is just learning about micing drums, I can't hear much difference because I am hearing the other mics.

[@erics2860]

Tyler Socholotuik The stereo image your hearing is more the spaced overheads, the gyn john sound is great for a drummer in a band like john mayer or jack johnson

[@JustinColletti]

I understand the sentiment, +Chuck Hipolitho but ultimately, think solo'd overheads are of limited value. You're rarely, if ever, going to hear overheads alone on a recording. What matters most is the context. That said, might be fun to find a way to release the multitracks someday so you can mess around with them for yourself!

[@frederikgroborsch3367]

i really like the glyn johns method. how do you pan the "overheads"? hard left-right? both mics same volume?

[@lukpac]

Same volume. Johns has said in recent years that he tends to pan them about 50% left and right, but his classic recordings sound like hard left and right to me, and that's what I do. The exact positions can vary a bit depending on the layout of the kit and preference.

[@nbsarkar6911]

On a daw?

[@chinor3999]

Just pan it all hard left like the Beatles

[@jjboogie1]

Excellent comparison. Loved the Glynn Johns. Seemed to be the fattest of them all in this case.

[@indivisibleman]

I have made it my mission to aggressively improve my drum recording technique. I loved this. The "instant" comparisons are awesome and let me know "what I like" right away. Thank you! I never knew what to call these options! Thank you

[@jacobsmith1877]

Recorderman technique will center your kick and snare. You can also use the Recorderman triangular measurement technique to find great placement options for all overhead mic setups including spaced pair, ORTF; even XY can benefit from being placed on a Recorderman-style triangulated axis

[@JacobColemandrums]

Sooooo needed this! Been recording drum covers for two years and didn't know these technique names. Amazing studio going there! We have a small drum room padded top to bottom with low ceilings. What is a good general height to put the over heads above the snare in a paired placement? (or above the cymbals height?)

[@JulienXuereb]

Quick question about spaced pair: I learned that the wider the mics are placed from each other the smaller the stereo image is. Why would the spaced pair give an exaggerated stereo spread?

[@SybrenRoefs]

Awesome video, thanks so much! Are the session files available for download? I'd love to analyse them in greater detail in Pro Tools.

[@dockbandwidth7045]

Great video and thanks for the info. One detail though that I always wonder about which seems to be left out is how far do you pan each of the channels on the mixer? For instance do you hard pan the Right & Left channels? Do you pan them 50% each way (3 oclock and 9 oclock)? Do you change the panning for each different technique. Would be interesting to know but thanks again. I use the Glynn-John all the time with no snare drum mic - just 2 overheads and a bass drum mic - works great!

[@samchoate1719]

What a gem of a video. I've always done a spaced pair since getting enough inputs for everything, but before that I did glyn johns and had a lot of fun with it! Dug out my garage sale stereo bar and am gonna try ORTF now. Thank you!

[@superfly3438]

There is a video out there of Glyn Johns placing his over heads and it's all on approximation of the position. He pretty much says it's simple to do with little thought. when asked if he ever measured the distance of his microphones. he replies. "No. It's bullshit." .. look it up, very entertaining .

[@kimsaisse]

the question is where to find this type of tripod?

[@polloalforno]

For completely wrong comparison: XY 1:40 ORTF 1:41 Spaced pair 8:00 Glyn Johns 11:30 Mono 6:66 No mic: 0:10

[@michaelcaplin8969]

You are a wonderful person!

[@tgtech570]

as both a drummer and a recording engineer this is a great detailed video! thank you so much!

[@magicdjinn]

Awesome vid!! didn't know about the Glyn Johns and I really liked it, I'm trying it tomorrow!

[@mccloysong]

Brilliant. Very informative. I always did the wide spacing overheads and panned them 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock to start, adjusting input levels until the snare was centered. Since the kick had its own mic, I could pan it microscopically to compensate for whatever off center the O/H's made it. The reason I always go with the wide panning kit is that straight-up-the-middle can interfere with the vocal. Only the bass, kick and vocal get center panning

[@GingerDrums]

Glyn Jones and Mono sound by far the most useful right off the bat. All of them would work fine however.

[@drewwolod4977]

SonicScoopVideo Of course, the reasoning behind centering the snare drum and not the kick drum is not positioning in the mix. The snare has the highest transient response, which easily relates to phase issues if the overheads are not equidistant. Right?

[@piotrp88]

This is right, but you have also to consider that kick drum has a lot more energy, so if it's uncentered you'll get an unbalanced sound which may results in a difficult to listen recording.

[@OnafetsOradoD]

I don't see why both kick and snare couldn't be centred. Draw an imaginary line between the two, and put the mics equidistantly to either side of it. With a four piece kit (1up1down, like in the video), it tends to be set up equally on either side of this, shall we say, diagonal line - more foreward to the left, and more backward to the right

[@drewwolod4977]

Yes, this is very common in the professional world, piotrp88​. You're thinking about it perfectly. Works great with large diaphragm condensers, specially akg 414s

[@jamesparentich7968]

Drew Wolod Also depending on the style of music there is usually less kick than snare in the overheads especially after applying a high pass filte, if there are phase problems with the snare you will notice them whereas the close mic on the kick provides more of the kicks volume so it is less noticeable, when micing with a more minimal spaced microhpone approach phase problems do becomne more apparent so care has to be taken.

[@drampadreg1386]

As a drummer and an engineer, I can't wrap my head around the hole in the kick and a mic stuck there. With every other drum you get your sound on the attack head and not the resonance head but with the kick you think backwards. I would urge everyone recording a kick to put a mic on the front (no holes, just a piece of felt offset behind the front head) and one on the attack side where the pedal is, Then just listen to the two side by side and see what I mean. As for overheads, plenty ways to set them up depending on the room and the kit but phase is always a little problem there. I like the three mic system where all mics are equal distance from the drummer. IN the end it's up to your ears.

[@busyboxst7]

One of the few how-to videos where the sounds actually sound good / mixable and not all overly "studio" / "produced". Great job! The Glyn brought a nice sweetness to the snare wires and hats that wasn't there as much on the others, more of that airy "action" sound, kinda cloudy / puffy. That and the mono setup were my faves.

[@veerchasm1]

Peter, did you get the TPS reports?

[@ofadetergentsud]

ORTF literally made my ears tickle while listening to HD on studio monitors. lol

[@gordontubbs]

Spaced Pair Overhead = Best for metal. Listen to Lamb of God's Ashes of the Wake. Metal may not be your music, but the drum production on that record is phenomenal.

[@ROCKSTARCRANE]

...worst for phase cancellation.

[@gordontubbs]

Grab some unidrectional condenser mics. Anything dynamic or omni and you'll definitely get some phase issues.

[@trac6]

These video's have helped me a lot. Thanks for sharing some of your techniques, man.

[@MrJvandal]

This is a great video. Detailed, clear and great sound quality. Big up SonicScoopVideo !

[@diwattos]

Glyn John is my favorite thank you

[@tiagoagfaria]

I really liked how Glyn jones sounded, would you recommend me using it in a live performance? At the moment I have been using the spaced pair technique, what is your opinion regarding OH mics for live act? Thanks, great videos!

[@IsawUupThere]

No, because it's high maintenance. When you do it right and can work really well, but it can also sound worse than any other setup if it goes wrong. Spaced is the most common and is pretty hard to screw up. ortf and xy are kinda meh but they are impossible to screw up. These are qualities, if you don't appreciate them now, you will some day.

[@pepe7drum]

i like that guy! he is awesome and he put it so simple! thank you so much i would defenetly try all those techniques

[@Tc558]

Great video thanks, I love that the drummer seems to be looking at you from the sofa with 'what is this guy doing' face

[@sinoptikband]

3:09XY 3:20 ORTF 6:23 Spaced Pair 6:35 Glyn Johns 7:17 Mono

[@VictorOrlandoNieto]

Superb three-video series. Thanks for putting material like this.

[@rhythmista7707]

First thing's first.. NO dampening should be applied on the toms or snare drum, unless you're going for that Don Henley, 70's dry sound. For this type of tutorial/demonstration, i suggest keeping the drums wide open. That means no kleenex, cloths, towels, felt strips, moongels, duct tape, pillows, or kick drum batter head portholes. Doing that will automatically capture the true sonic properties and tonality of the drums, not to mention the fact that drums will be become bigger and louder sounding. And of course, proper tuning. You'd be surprised how many great players out there can't tune their drums for shit..In that aspect, this recording drum sound is irrelevant if you're attempting to demonstrate true studio recorded drums. This is just an observation coming from a 32 year veteran drummer and drum tech.. As far as how the drums sound in this setting, they sound great, if you're going for that 70's dry sound.

[@ManoGiba]

Best OH tips I`ve seen here in KZbin ! Thanks a lot ! Cheers.

[@SteveStockmalMusic]

So... great video, fantastic explanations. Suggestion: Since we’re trying to hear a stereo sound, let’s play a measure of a cheesy beat, then do two soft and two loud 16ths on each drum, followed by right crash half note (without, then with kick), same on the left, end with a cheesy Ride beat for a measure. And as someone else mentioned... PLEASE put them back to back for a real comparison. I really appreciate how much time and effort it took to do this, and we all got a lot out of it. But it’s KZbin so we all get to sit back and say “I could do that better” (how many drummers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? 7...one to do it and 6 to say “I could do that better”). Lol Thanks again, Steve

[@tomjandoeven]

I prefer to center the snare, because the kick has much lower frequenties, so the soundwaves are much longer. Because the soundwaves are long at the kick, and short at the snare (the snare has high frequenties), you notice the difference of the distance from the spaced pair better when you center the snare, and not the kick.

[@tomjandoeven]

CBGaudio It certainly is, but the goal of overheads is not that the kick and the snare both are centered, the goal is to record cymballs and shit. You must not forget that. Its possible and pretty simple to center one of them, but the most important thing is that it sounds good.

[@JustinColletti]

CBGaudio It's true - you can rotate the overheads 45 degrees to try and center the kick and snare both. It's a much less "classic" approach, changes the sound of the spread significantly. (There's also some potential to cause additional mono compatibility issues on kick and snare, depending on distance. That can be avoided though.) You may like it. It's not a bad way to go at all. Perhaps we could mention that, and some additional advanced overhead techniques, in a follow-up video. There's only so much you can fit into a 7-minute clip!

[@nelsonsanchez3670]

Hi. At the time of recording, once we've placed the pics for the overheads, what should we do in the mixer?? I usually route one Mic into a Channel in the mixer, and pan that mic LEFT completely, and the other one RIGHT, is that correct??

[@jesse9999999]

Another nice option is to do a mid-side with a nice condenser for your figure of 8 mic, it gives you a nice "stereo width" control for your kit without having to use a cheesy plugin.

[@marcminermusic]

Hey, I just came along your videos. Seems you're into Americana, so please check my clips too. I'm sure you will like it. Have a nice day! Best, Marc

[@jeffreymiddelveld4421]

Especially the crash on the drummers left side is panned significantly more to the outside. The ride a bit less, but the change in dimension is pretty obvious. I would choose the X-Y. Pretty stereo image, but not panned too wide. Good demo, thanks :)

[@mendytwito636]

?Is the close microphones also sound in the video?

[@rsargent26]

My head exploded when you centered the kick. WHY is the snare considered the center when it's not really at the center of the kit?? I think I'm gonna try a modified Glyn Johns with kick at the center.

[@Choinsta]

great tute.. I just had a session the other week with just ribbon mics.. using ortf and over the shoulder and about 6 more lol... sounded dope... Loved your classic set ups... thank you Ivan K

[@jeroenfigee]

Great tutorial ! I enjoyed it and will be watching this a few times to learn the techniques. | Thnax4posting

[@seanlowrie8883]

OT: Nice to see the M400 hanging about in the background. I'd assume it gets much love from everyone who walks in there?

[@CraigFlowersMusic]

Wow I didn't realize you've been plugging away at this KZbin racket as long as I have.

[@SonicScoop]

You have just officially discovered my first ever KZbin video!! At least the first one that I appeared in myself. If I only I kept making them consistently back then, the channel probably would have been HUGE! So much less competition and noise back then. I could sneeze into a microphone then and get tens of thousands of views in the early days. -Justin

[@CraigFlowersMusic]

@@SonicScoop same. My most watched vid is from 2013 when I had 16 subs lol

[@EmilianoMarcle]

the best video on youtube about drum recording!

[@steverodriduez8828]

For the glyn John's effect are you only using those two condenser mics for the whole drum set? Or are you also using dynamic mics on all your toms and bass drum. And are you using one mic on the snare or two or none? Basically I'm asking for all the mics you used to make the drums sound like it did in 6:35

[@SteveStockmalMusic]

Super informative, thank you. Next time I would love it if your drum master would play more than two notes on the floor tom. For example maybe play the beat for 2 or 3 bars, and then 16ths on each drum (and end up with a measure of 3/4? Lol) so we can really get a feel for where it sits in the stereo field. Not a criticism at all, just a helpful thought from “we who sit out here and wonder” ! 😊😊😊😊

[@kris5645]

On a scale of 1 to 10 how much spread are you doing?

[@DRMusicRecordings]

Anyone know the Mic Pres that were used on the mics? Thanks

[@JustinColletti]

Hi Ruben, We used the API 1604 console at Strange Weather, so it's almost all API pres. I believe we may have used the outboard Neve pres on kick and snare, just because we could!

[@SuperIamsmart]

thank you actually going to class confident this really helped

[@AllenMichael]

I like the spaced pair! In a mix this would be wide

[@demevfilms]

This just helped me do my homework! 💪🏽

[@onemic-theminimalist]

Less is more! I got a lot done with one stereo mic and have over thirty videos showing the process if anyone is interested.

[@LuisHouses]

great video

[@no_wrong_notes]

Peter, from Office Space!

[@GeoAl09]

Where is the mono overhead placed? I can't tell if it directly above the snare or not. and what would be a good height starting point? Thanks!

[@JustinColletti]

Hi Geo, It's pretty much looking straight down at the snare. Probably between 5 and 6 feet from the ground. (A few feet above the snare, and a foot or two higher than the drummer's head when he's sitting.)

[@GeorgePiazza]

He failed to address M/S and Binaural; both are less common, but M/S in particular can deliver fantastic results in a great sounding room.

[@skeetabomb]

Great video. Thanks! Very interesting the Glyn Johns method. With IEMs, the difference is quite obvious. I will play around with these on my 13 piece.... 8P

[@PaulyStax]

microphone = mic. But the word is MIKING not mic'ing.

[@julian65886]

Can you comment on the difference between miking drums in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s? IMHO. the 1980 drums suck!

[@stokethefire2645]

My biggest question is, "How high"? That is the one thing that never really ever gets answered.

[@daneeehhhh]

On spaced pair, do you pan the snare mics to the side of the overhead that captures the earlier signal? Do you time align/phase align overheads with snare mics? Thanks

[@dannyho6786]

DO NOT USE CABLES FOR MEASURING !!!!!!! WHAT KIND OF PLACE R U RunninG ????????????

[@ronaltMkDonalt]

I skipped this video over because the voice sounds like butt. If I can't stand the voice track that means there's inhuman qualities to it in the uncanny valley next to the land of trying2hard and I don't waste time on that. The drums were muffled at best, dang near killed.

[@retribution1423]

My opinion on centering the snare over the kick (in the spaced pair) is that I tend to high pass overhead mic's fairly brutally whilst keeping the snare panned center. Therefore retaining the snare in the middle makes most sense as barely any of the kick is going to be left in the OH tracks. I guess if your intending to pan the snare off center and not high pass the OH tracks to make the kit sound more "real" then I can see the sense. Then again I doubt taking one approach over the other makes that much of a difference to the end mix anyway!

[@matiascabero8740]

great video! , thaanks. We are listening only the OH? without process? , or are with eq and with the close mics? thanks :)

[@claudiofussei9112]

Hi Justin… this is one of the best tutorial I ever seen!!! So, can you explain how to pan channels in these techniques? Thanks a lot...

[@JustinColletti]

Thanks Claudio. For most of these patterns, I usually go hard left and right, but it's all to taste in the end. For Glyn Johns, most folks will pan the tom side overhead all the way out, but only pan the snare side overhead halfway out to help center the image a bit.

[@audiovik]

6:22 Spaced Pair maybe 1st test…

[@marksampson48]

These setups are for recording, yes? Do they, can they, also apply to perfomance setups, or is that a different sort of animal?

[@djscorpie]

thanks for sharing!! amazing video !!

[@theroll666]

thank you!

[@sl3102]

Nice, but maybe it would have been helpful to hear just the overheads without the close mics?

[@RiotHomeRecording]

I like that drum kit!

[@ofdrumsandchords]

I use wide spaced pair of overheads, and I place them above my ride cymbals cymbals, one on the right and one on the left, but close to them. In order to reduce the gain and taking more cymbals and less drums. perhaps it's a mistake. Every time I'm recorded by a sound engineer he does otherwise, put the overheads high. Cymbals are good but I don't like the result on toms.

[@diegooliveirabenjamin]

Who's dumb enough to dislike a video like this?

[@TempoDrift1480]

Well... generally, when presenting an assumedly professional video about recording drums... one would think that a drummer would perform the demo on a set of drums that were tuned. This guy is absolutely not a drummer and those drums are absolutely not tuned. I didn't go so far as to dislike the video but I figured I'd answer your question.

[@BrandonPaluzzi]

Drums and performance are great. Not sure what you're on about.

[@TempoDrift1480]

+Brandon Paluzzi It looks like I explained what I was about several months ago.

[@BrandonPaluzzi]

Your comment didn't (and doesn't) make any sense. The drums sound great, and the drummer is fine.

[@TempoDrift1480]

+Brandon Paluzzi Suit yourself Homie, If you insist grass is blue and sky is green then that's your ignorance. It goes without a doubt that you have zero clue how to tension drums or what a properly tuned drum should sound like. Do you honestly think that those drums are doing what they were intended to do with duct tape all over them? Betting not. How bout that snare? That snare drum has neither heads tensioned in any way that resembles a tuning. Don't you hear the snares wires fartting back up on the bottom of the drum because they're cranked? This is not how you tune drums unless you're 14 years old and you are using factory heads on a CB drumset. Now... take note Junior. You just might learn something today. With alll due respect.