Soooo... North America only has 9 playable countries..

[@MattFerr100]

Still more playable native tags than Victoria 3 and Eu4 at launch, also Greenland counts as America too!

[@bjornerluffy]

EU4 at launch was fucking ridiculous. Three nations in all of subsaharan africa, one in south america and a few in north america. Players who started after 2015 does not remember how Art of War update added over 1000 provinces to EU4.

[@fredrickvonstien861]

It might be neat if landed tags *could* 'degrade' back into societies of pops if a certain level of collapse were to happen (like the example of the diseases being given for the Coosa Chiefdom). You'll get to have native nations pop up and out depending on how they are doing situationally. I don't think the game engine can support this 'going back and forth' between societies of pops and landed tags but it would be neat if we could have it in so that there's the potential for a 'bronze age collapse' scenario for nations in Europe under the correct extreme conditions. Edit: A proposal for how societies of pops can be 'played' is to have unlanded 'tribal' tags exist within the range of the societies of pops able to effectively concentrate or move the pops around in a migratory fashion until there's a certain level of 'control' which the tag can then pop into existence on the map (and only in that area of control so the entire SoP don't just suddenly become a large nation). So effectively you're not playing as the society, rather a tribe within the society.

[@McHobotheBobo]

@fredrickvonstien861 that sounds like a good idea to me! Not sure how to implement, but solid concept

[@thomashenry4798]

Aktually. The engine explicitly can support SoPs becoming landed nations, so it can probably support the other way around.

[@MattFerr100]

5:53 kinda of a bad arguement considering we can play as banks and companies

[@BrianHall33]

I thought so too

[@McHobotheBobo]

@@MattFerr100 Real af!

[@reeman2.0]

I very much agree. Personally I think every ethnic group(culture) should have their own society of pops. It wouldn't make sense to play as the English SoP in England at the start date, but tagging into them after annexing England as another nation I think would be an interesting way to play. An alt-history of fighting for English interests under Scottish rule would be fun!

[@Makem12]

@@MattFerr100 Your argument has me convinced.

[@theodorepinnock1517]

On the geographical vs. colonial borders for areas issue, a really excellent suggestion I saw made by several people is that the areas should follow natural geographical borders. but follow the colonial borders on a province or location level so that it's possible to create the historical borders.

[@SireBab]

The nice thing about east coast borders is they broadly do, like mountains, rivers, and such.

[@jacobsayler7828]

Maize is another name for Corn. The Old world didn't have corn until after the columbian exchange. In old english "Korn" referred to staple grains in general, but now days Corn tends to just refer to Maize as tamed by Native Americans.

[@MattFerr100]

I'm not an expert in precolombian American history but I'm fairly certain that there could be more landed tags along the upper Missisipi and the Midwest, but if you are interested there's a thread on the forums called something like "a look at precolombian America" which goes in-depth on the subject

[@michaelwilson5866]

There was a city, with buildings, in south Kansas, called Etzanoa. It was even visited by a Spanish conquistador.

[@DrakonPhD]

The problem is we just know so little about that city, it's been hard to make a tag for it that's more then guess guesswork/fantasy. It would be cool though!

[@tsarbill4865]

I agree with this sentiment. Cahokia was but one of several sites belonging to the broader Misissipian cultures. Cahokia just happens to be the largest (and most developed?) of them, but there is plenty of archaeological evidence for permanent, fortified sites of habitation.

[@cadian101st]

Yeah, I am all for empty Australia but North America and especially the Mississippi basin should have some more tags. Maybe the Great Lakes too. I was going to say the Iroquois but it is debated how early they formed (some people say centuries before the start date, others say centuries after)

[@diegoidepersia]

@@cadian101st theres also the muskogee places like Coosa and the ever isolationist Escampaba Kingdom in Florida which could be nice to add

[@Demostravius]

I have to disagree with your take on SoP. A country is a population that has sorted themselves together enough to form a stable localised governance. A big part of the EU series is alternate history. There is very little point implementing a society of pops if there is no way ever to organise them, to change that history. The New World in particular has a lot of potential for alternate history, but not without some system of playing or capitalising on SoP. Whilst I don't see it coming out on release, I'm confident someone can come up with a reasonable play style for them, that cumulates in forming a sedentary nation if wanted. Some form of mobilising peoples into armies, and usurping governments. Or organising and forming your own, could be interesting.

[@MattFerr100]

Maize,potatos and tobacco are native to the americas, notice also the lack of wheat and horses

[@MattFerr100]

And livestock too(exept in SA because lamas!)

[@Threxer]

I admire Tintos adherence to their own (admittedly partially arbitrary) rules about what should be a country or SoP etc. But even more I admire the willingness to change and listen to the community. This is one of the only games I can look forward to without a nagging "what if it's crap" feeling.

[@evanurquhart9225]

Us Canadian do celebrate Thanksgiving, but we do so earlier then the US in mid October

[@McHobotheBobo]

18:00 Wild that Savannah doesn't have a natural harbor lol, it ain't the best ever but it def has a decent one

[@SireBab]

You should mention this on the forums!

[@McHobotheBobo]

21:59 I have *major* beef with this resource map, obvs minerals will be revealed by settled tags over time, but copper, gold, silver, and tin deposits were mined and utilized by *many* indigenous cultures. These metals can literally be melted in a campfire, and we have many examples of artifacts from not just Mesoamerica but from many cultures across the Americas

[@McHobotheBobo]

Okay after a closer look it isn't quite as bad as I thought, but the minerals of the continent are still a bit underrepresented imo

[@MekarWB]

There is absolutely zero evidence of metalworking in North America before Europeans.

[@SNWWRNNG]

"Unnatural" borders, like the straight lines between US states, that didn't exist by the game's end date historically should not be included in the game. Just my 2 cents

[@jrak193]

I liked the way it was in EU4 where they had the state lines (especially in the East) but they curved them around to make it look more natural. If you were familiar with the shapes of US states you could make them out. When I play in North America I like being able to easily tell what state I'm looking at. I agree that the straight lines are an eyesore though.

[@merpking748]

I get this, but also, some of those straight lines were colonial borders in the east by the end of the game, no? I agree it looks bad but it's also more historically accurate when it comes to colonization. Perhaps there's a middle-ground.

[@McHobotheBobo]

The "13 colonies" should be a confederation of multiple entities rather than one, and the game looks to be able to support that sort of structure. The Constituion came later, initially it was just the "Articles of Confederation"

[@bootmii98]

@@McHobotheBobo 1787 is before 1821

[@McHobotheBobo]

@bootmii98 So if the colonies survive breaking away from britain, and can undertake reform in the decade after, they become a unified state - still seems perfectly reasonable to use geographic rather than political borders for this game

There should be a huge lake in 1337 pre-colonial California that is not there. There used to be, it was just drained by the colonists, much, much later (IIRC it might had even been after the game end date).

[@alecity4877]

Tulare lake? yes, it was drained in the late 19th century in fact, so more like a Victoria 3 thing indeed after game end date.

[@megatronprime832]

It is there, it was a small lake during human habitation, smaller than the size of Tahoe which IS missing.

[@alecity4877]

@@megatronprime832 oh you are right... also, just noticed, the Salton Sea is there, which shouldn't be since it was created by an industrial accident at the start of the 20th century.

[@David-bh7hs]

Tulare was seasonal, it flooded its banks during the rainy season

[@alecity4877]

@@David-bh7hs Tulare was not merely seasonal, it had significant seasonal growth and reduction depending on the rainfall each season, but it was a permanent lake at its core... Until it got drained.

[@Leivve]

I think they could work out a system where the tribal nations are "landless" countries for the sake of colonization. But they can build buildings with a land connection to their "capital" which is a building in a historic location. Then give them the ability to grow and expand through those buildings. Then have an innovation in the age of discovery that lets you officially claim the land as a landed nation.

[@SireBab]

Regarding smallpox deaths, it varied by estimates anywhere from 50-99%, however much beyond 50% usually constituted in a collapse of society which did a bad number on most native societies.

[@dardade3277]

Honestly I'm decently happy with this few tags. If you want to be in a North American thunderdome, there's an area for you. If you want to be left alone and play Click Development Simulator, there's a seat for you. The only other position I'd rather have is some tag on the coast to roleplay "first contact with Europeans" and/or a Sunset Invasion, which imo ideally should be in the Caribbean and we'll find that out on Dec 13th (and there will definitely be some Central American / Aztec tags along the coast in Mexico to fill that role too).

[@McHobotheBobo]

8:41 Okay, the solution, a new game rule: "SoP restriction level" - perhaps there is a better name for the rule, but the idea is to allow player control of how many SoP tags get converted to state tags

[@polecat7377]

Agree about the Iroqouis, there's also probably pretty good cases to be made about the Huron, Lenape, Cherokee, Haida, Western Salish (and likely forgetting a couple others), I get these are kind of tough fits - because most of them don't fit neatly into the criteria of either being full-fledged nations in 1337, but they're much too organized to just be SoPs... darn native americans and their not fitting neatly into western biases!

[@haakontangvald-pedersen8374]

Well, the EU4 NA native organization is the aberration. IMO Paradox never got it to work, making natives into some sort of weak copies of European counties/duchies, just acting as roadblocks. I'm hoping for a later DLC with some unique options for the peoples of the continent, blending of cultures etc. Only way to make native states viable is that they mix in european ideas with the untamed nature of their vast lands. Horde organization, or effective guerilla warfare is the way to go. One the geography and province format, I agree fully with Lambert. NO copy of the 13 colonies, please.

[@McHobotheBobo]

3:36 The Creek nations would be top of my list, Iroqouis and Cherokee are on there too. I'd enjoy to play the Shawnee, Cree, or Haida as well :) Oh, and the Huron! I rarely play them, but they deserve a place!

[@ap-plateau5316]

Iroquois had not yet emerged by this time period. A case could be made for playing as a pre-iroquois tribe though

[@diegoidepersia]

@@ap-plateau5316 like the onondaga, mohawk and the other 4?

[@ap-plateau5316]

​@@diegoidepersia more or less yeah, though I'm not a subject matter expert. I think the 1300s is a bit early even for those. Archaeologists call it the "Woodland Period" and part of that is that eastern woodlands societies weren't very differentiated from tech other. It was a bit different with places like Cahokia, that followed a lot more of the Mesoamerican model, but the woodlands societies weren't really in the immediately pre-Contact form until the 1400s or later, basically the start of EU4. This makes EU4 a lot easier to simulate in this regard

[@Savvysnek]

I hope they add the Haudenosaunee/Iroquois. It seems they didn't likely exist yet in 1337, but there should be a way to form them somehow from the five nations that founded the confederation (Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, or Seneca). Even if it's ahistorical from the "landed" criteria...would be a shame to have such few playable tags here.

[@theodorepinnock1517]

You don't like being called names? Well take this, you.... Lambert!

[@Makem12]

They need more tribal tags even if it's not 100% accurate. The only issue I could see with that is feeling the need to add things like an Ainu playable or some Siberia playables too.

[@MyTomServo]

I get that it's said differently in different cultures, but it's really weird that North and South America are one continent to some people, but Afroeurasia isn't one to anyone. We're at least as separated as Asia and Africa and way more than Europe and Asia. Like if I were to define a continent using math I think pretty much all of them would split North and South America and like none of them would split Europe and Asia.

[@benismann]

Europe and Asia split is just kinda silly. But im also biased since we had euroasia in school. But even then, no one can agree where europe ends, unlike africa or north/south america

[@tzf04]

Eu não sou americano ou anglófono então pra mim faz sentido a América do Norte e do Sul serem 1 continente e a Ásia, Europa e África serem separados. No fim, a cultura e a história tem um peso ao se considerar um continente, por isso faz sentido pra mim que a América seja considerada um continente só e a Eurasia não (apesar de ser)

[@derbonuspool1274]

Im pretty sure aswell that Maize is its own thing, but its Indigenous to the Americas so we wouldn't have seen it before.

[@GloriaAdImperii]

tbh i feel like it could be possible to make society of pops somewhat playable, maybe you play as the guiding force of the society guiding it towards centralization? maybe it could be possible to centralize a specific province and create that into its own tag, from which we could unite the rest of the society? Even if the experience is half baked, the ability to play as a society of pops and centralize into a nation would add many more gameplay possibilities

[@reign4213]

Also prefer the natural borders for the areas and states

Wish the USA actually done that IRL instead of all the straight lines they had made.

[@benismann]

very much this. It's not only ugly, but it also kinda forces your hand, coz no one likes to leave states half-conquered/colonized.

[@thedeadlysquidward1641]

Look into the Utahism movement.

[@tranium67]

You cannot tell me Colorado doesn’t look sexy

[@Helmet_Von_Moldy]

@@benismannin EU4 yes, but EU5 is not the same game

[@TheRockhound119]

As a native of Saskatchewan, Saskatchewan should be named Kisikatchewani Sipi prior to colonization. As Saskatchewan is derived from those Cree words that mean "Swift-flowing river".

[@MekarWB]

The EU4 native system is completely ridiculous and gives them a huge amount of ahistorical social organization that never existed. This is much closer to making sense. Natives in EU is one of those topics that seems to be zealously advocated for by some people despite that virtually no one plays them and the only way to make them playable in the game is to make them way more advanced than they actually were.

[@addickland5656]

They probably noticed how many EU4 players just used mods to remove all natives in the americas outside of Mexico and Peru because of how annoying and performace-hampering many found them (not speaking for myself btw). So my guess is there will be some "stateless societies" DLC that will focus on the americas in particular and will both add a bit more depth and amounts to the continent's starting tags, as well as make stateless societies generally actually worth playing (which even if you can play them at the release of EU5, I'd be shocked if they are in any way fun or relevant) for those who want to pay for that experience.

[@appropinquo3236]

I'm very happy with the the direction that Tinto is going towards when it comes to portraying 'unsettled' tags, so much better than vicky 3 which basically just gave them a token presence on the map and nothing else.

[@youtubesenior654]

Hey maybe when they group up as confedaracies they can choose to stay or become normal nation. And maybe there could be a hybrid mode, where normal nations get priority but instead of just wasteland you see the sops underneath or you can see the outline like in the sops mapmode

[@AdornByFire]

They completely butchered the interior of America. Looking at this you’d think America doesn’t have any lakes. North Carolina and South Carolina has so many more forests.

[@McHobotheBobo]

25:02 They're using far too low of a population estimate for the Americas IMO. Most estimates place the number around 50 million (more than double current number) but range from 8-100 million. I think it better to err on the larger side of that to make the region more dynamic and engaging

[@DrakonPhD]

South America seems a little low, but I don't see why they should be beholden to "most" estimates, instead of what they feel is more reasonable/better for gameplay. And one thing I'd like for them to avoid is the EU4 problem of North American natives forming massive Continental empires that instantly conquer colonial nations 7 seconds after they form.

[@McHobotheBobo]

@DrakonPhD Colonization should be expensive and difficult, like it was historically. It is far too easy and fast in EU4. There weren't major European-settled cities in the Americas until the 1600s in most of the hemisphere, and the Spanish conquests relied *extremely heavily* on local allies historically, and often failed without them

[@merpking748]

The more modern estimates I've seen typically range from 30-45 million if my memory serves correct, so I agree it should be increased.

[@jonathanredacted3245]

Maize is precolumbian Corn

[@cadian101st]

Decimate is bringing it down to 10%, not bringing it down by 10%

[@BrotherHoodMovies331]

decimatio 'removal of a tenth'

[@dunndudebemelol]

As long as they can become landed im happy

[@plagiarisedspoon3290]

I thought natives would work like adventurers from ck3, where you have a camp that moves and you can build upgrades in.

[@binnsi2251]

Playable society of pops sounds like a dlc thing rather than base game mechanic need for the game at launch.

[@æ-blake-æ]

Is the idea that many SoPs will be able to centralize and become stated still a thing??? Cause if we’re seriously stuck with these then I have some serious gripes Having only 9 tags playable at start is insane to me like I wasn’t expecting much but not even the Haudenosaunee?? Furthermore how are we meant to simulate the 5 civilized tribes or the Northwestern Confederacy?? I feel like at least SOME suspension of the rules is necessary to make a fun game yk?

[@Boi-dj3eo]

The less native tags the better, colonisation got ruined after they added the decision to make natives fill out the whole north america before 1550s.

[@McHobotheBobo]

@Boi-dj3eo that's just a problem because of EU4 mechanics, it would work just fine in EU5 from what I've seen (which is every single update about this game)

[@jarjab2games]

I disagree. Colonization was boring before then. Now you have to actually interact with the new world.

[@muratozsoy7116]

facts

[@DrakonPhD]

​@@jarjab2gamesNo, it's tedious now. If you miss one pop-up then your colonial nations gets eaten by a massive Continental native empire

[@KaesiumXP]

colonisation is still too easy considering it took until 1800s for the US pacific coast to be colonised in any meaningful fashion

[@KeepAwayFromMee]

I just really hope the is a fur trade mechanic or some representation. Would give a good means for colanizing nations to interact with SOP's. Plus it is extremely important to the way canada was colonized

[@nathanaelsallhageriksson1719]

As much as I like historical accuracy, there are times where details kinda should be stretched for gameplay reasons. I think adding another 2 or 3 playable tags in NA would be good. Though keep in mind this is JUST north america. Meso-America and south America should have more tags.

[@TheKindofTiredSleepCantFix]

"The Americas as a continent and then three subsontinents. Which I think is pretty fair" It's not. If North America is a subcontinent then Africa should be a subcontinent of Afroeurasia. North America is on a different tectonic plate from South America and is connected by a isthmus that is half as wide as Suez at its narrowest point.

[@tzf04]

This plate tectonic argument is too simplistic. If that were the case, the Indian sub-continent and East Africa would be continents. Continent is just an arbitrary way of classifying the regions of the world and goes beyond being purely geographic. Europe is glued to Asia and yet it is a separate continent. And why? Because it makes sense historically and culturally. Therefore, it is okay to call the entire continent America, it makes sense historically and culturally. Those who speak English divide the Americas as separate continents and that's okay, just as other languages ​​call the entire continent "America" ​​and that's okay

[@Lord_Lambert]

There is no solid definition of a continent. It doesnt exist. It is entirely a cultural/political tool used to divide and has no physical definition.

[@alecity4877]

I think at least the different Haudenosaunee tribes should have playable tags, the confederacy's date of formation is contested, but it is a union of chiefdoms that had a much longer story, with definited laws and rule of the land. Even if we don't know really what their distribution was in the 14th century exactly, we know there were defined chiefdoms in the area around the great lakes already. If they are going with Cahokia as a large lone tag despite us not knowing well their system of governance and law due to societal and political changes that preceded not just European contact with the mississipians but European arrival to the americas, why are tribes of which we know more of and have more defined line between them and the present not playable?

[@derbonuspool1274]

Boston is North of New York

[@ilianceroni]

9:27 I’m really conflicted on this subject, as it’s a matter of historical accuracy vs gameplay quality, and both are fundamental for the series, even if it’s a game of alt-history, that alternative version has to be plausible. My “bandage” solution would be to have a random number (like from 0 to 10 per area) of these society of pops being chosen as states (maybe with an ad hoc form of government) at the start of the game. So that you can choose a stateless society at the start of the game, but in that game it will start as a state alongside a bunch of other ones. Similarly, when Euros will come, they will found a little bit more states, but due to the randomness it would change a bit the experience every time. They could also have some events that help shape the eventual “standard state” they become or makes them fall. Basically it’s what they do with dynasties, but with countries. Yes it’s not historical, but it’s a compromise that makes partially clear that’s not an historical country. And of course, as many of these type of thing, it could be an option that you turn on or off before starting the game, for those who want the most historically accurate version of that one province country conquering the entire world in one century… or something like that😂

[@Helmet_Von_Moldy]

The complaint about modern US state lines for provinces is silly and the alternative is worse. Having modern state lines for provinces and areas, which are geopolitical designations which are inherently arbitrary EXCEPT FOR their connect to modern US state lines is fine. The idea that creating fantasy provinces and areas is a better solution seems silly. Also, because locations can be owned separately, the borders don’t have to adhere to the straight province and area lines.

[@micheleneville8953]

Boston is north of New York.

[@Lord_Lambert]

I totally knew that! >.>

[@oscarhocklee]

You know... The EU series at least is not just about historical accuracy, but also about semi-historical what-if. After all, it would be a *very* rare game that actually runs even close to actual history in detail. So maybe what we need here is the ability to say "Okay, but what if that SoP was a landed country?", and have that be the fundamental conceit when you start a game with one. A lot of the system is working on generics such as culture, language, etc so while there might not be a *lot* of content, it probably would not take all that much extra to make it work. Sure, it's ahistorical. But so is any situation where Byzantium survives, or either England or France conquer the other. I think making one SoP into a small landed nation to allow for some interesting starts would be a nice compromise

[@Vengir]

We should also remember that SoP aren't simply countries that are only visible in a separate map mode. For instance, you can have both a landed tag and a SoP exist in the same location. Possibly, there could even be multiple SoPs in the same location. The ability for them to migrate also seems likely. Yes, the map feels very empty right now, but if you turn a tag from a SoP to an actual playable country, you also take away the things that make SoP's special. Who knows, maybe even as SoP's they will still pose adequate challenge to European Colonizers. I think I'd prefer that they figure out how to make SoP's playable (in an update, most likely) rather than to get a half-baked tag that mechanically works more or less like some generic European tag.

[@Riael]

"How many of these would you ahystorically turn into stated society for the purpose of gameplay? And also which ones do you choose?" You have a game setting which is by default whatever paradox decides with options which choose X random possibilities in the area to turn into stated. Maybe in this new world Skarúre and Guale really get along and make a big native alliance that beats off (giggidy) the colonizers, maybe the next new world they're not near the coast so you don't know where they are until you actually explore. I don't envy the devs either. Got no faith whatsoever in Paradox, can only hope they don't crash and burn in the next 10 years.

[@0jacon0ice0]

I’m an honestly shocked about how the Iroquois have NO representation

[@coldrage20t8]

I was right about them doing almost no states in NA. Shame. I will say even with the system they have set up the Iroquoia should be one of the tags. The republic system the federation used formed in 1100s For the question you asked about Iroquois vs haudenosaunee. People generally accept Iroquois fine but when talking about (5 at this point in EU today 6 tribes of the federal) they generally perfer haudenosaunee. That being said I'm not from the cultures that's just my understanding. 50-90% is the debated number of deaths from the plagues depended a lot on when. from my reading seems like most of it is agreesed now to be closer to the 50% in most cases but still its a massive lose. also im pretty sure cahokia was abandoned or will be within like 30 years at game start. well given the start date and we have cahokia id have the other missippi mound builders as tags, Cherokee ( whowere a major military power and eco ally to the brits) Haudaenosaunee who where a major military and trading power for the french. and i dont know who but prob one of the federations in the great plains to go from simi nomadic to fully nomadic when horses show up "Most scholars estimate a pre-colonization population of around 50 million, with other scholars arguing for an estimate of 100 million. Estimates reach as high as 145 million. Epidemics ravaged the Americas with diseases, such as smallpox, measles, and cholera, which the early colonists brought from Europe." ill just post that for population.

[@DrakonPhD]

145 million is ludicrous, when Europe was around 70-80 million and China around 60 million.

[@coldrage20t8]

@DrakonPhD that's the high end for both north and south and all the island together. I also think that's probably extreme but eu5 doesn't even fall into the lowest estimate.

[@Maurcusj777]

I would like the ability to define a region by assigning a province to a state, like how in CK2 you can "create" the borders of your kingdoms within an empire. I want that same level of control for nearly everything, that way people who enjoy having modern-esque "unnatural" borders, like me, can be happy alongside those who want nore "natural" borders. Simply make the asignable regions small enough for the ability to roughly approximate either style.

[@mrmattrg9225]

No SoPs on the west coast seems wild. Time to read about the costal salish again!

[@sbadkins5482]

The population looks low, but the number of tags seems… fine? I really doubt they are going to do the Amazon right now though.

[@monarchtherapsidsinostran9125]

I was hoping for 1 per area of north america ngl. Like the souix or dakota would be fun to play.

[@Bawhoppen]

There's more there to the societies that SOPs represent than I think you think.

[@basvriese1934]

The way I'd like to see it work would be with start dates, like some of these populations turn into nations later on, if you start later you can play them. Although if I remember correctly they did say they would not do alternate start dates?

[@Lord_Lambert]

We're not getting start dates. Almost certainly not ever.

[@zimtwiers9726]

Someone would have to mod it probably. I don’t envy the one that takes on that task

[@Lord_Lambert]

Oh modders will be all over that. I predict a 1444 mod within a month of launch.

[@herkles5416]

I am with you on the borders, though I do prefer when possible to go with native borders over pure geographical, and then colonial and then modern state borders. the thing about American borders is that they weren't even like that in the time period. See the charters that set up the colonies, could be rather vague on borders, ie Virginia's 1609 charter gave them all the land from sea to sea based on not knowing. there were competing claims even at the time of independence, most famously in the great lakes area though in the Appalachia too. This was a political decision that had to be solved at the time of independence and could easily have broken it the country apart. Not to mention the fact that Maine was part of Massachusettes, floridia at one point was east and west floridia, various other proposed states which could have happened like Franklin or west-sylvania, or the proposed british colony of Vandalia.

[@kashk42]

I'm fine with NA being as empty as it is. It's a game about countries, and now that we finally can have the actual people which doesn't live in something that could reasonably be called a country still be represented I think they should stick to that. Still, I get the desire to play in the area, it's the ultimate power-fantasy after all, just like restoring Persia to Zoroastrianism or reforming the western Roman Empire, but in the case of natives it would really require very specialized content. I hate to start speculating on DLC before a game is even properly announced, but a DLC that is focused on the path from SOP->country really feels more appealing, to me atleast, than some half-arsed approach in the base game. For the base game, I am content with Australia/NA to basically function as areas that only exist for other people to colonize, atleast that is my opinion based on our current understanding of how the game plays. If mechanics doesn't exist to make tags actually playable, and more importantly, actually enjoyable for the player, I don't think we should have tags just to give the map a bit of colour. I mean, they *tried* in EU4 and pretty much everyone agrees that native gameplay is more something you just have to get through to get to your desired end-state rather than actually enjoyable gameplay.

[@Nifalh]

Isn't there plan to make society of pops playable? Just not on game release. So it might be added later as dlc. For now maybe add event when a society of pops become settled to switch tags to them (something like fullo in EU4) for country which have discovered the continent.

[@Lord_Lambert]

Less of a plan and more of a wish

[@goatmygoat]

Looks like a place for dlc!

[@RabidBogling]

My starting campaign in both EU4 and EU3 was Iroquois. Could prove tricky this time.

[@Lord_Lambert]

lol yes I think that might be a struggle

[@Onzo22]

Looks like they relocated all playable countries to the HRE

[@combrade-t]

Tbf, we have been told we can play as banking countries and also like army-based countries. Societies of pops are just pop-based countries. I do think some more should probably be promoted? It's hard to say, because we know very little. If there are any playable then there should probably more more though - I can't imagine Cahokia being an at all interesting tag to play atm whereas by contrast oceania having none to me says that SoPs should be playable to some extent. These societies are that, they had power structures just to a much lesser degree and a lot smaller. Only way I can see Cahokia being interesting if they can help to elevate the SoPs into stated countries and make them into a vast vassal empire? Absolutely shouldn't go for post colonial borders though. They look out of place, and also serve a sort of historical determinism that they end up that way because plenty of countries would have probably formed different administrative borders than those that were created. In places, I think it would be cool for it to be possible to make borders reasonably equivalent to them, but really not a priority.

[@holydoggo4822]

Oh that’s ridiculous with how many actual civilizations there were at this period. There is a great KZbin channel called ancient Americas that had a lot of videos showing off the civilizations of the past 2000 years

[@jjjace2152]

Tbh I think it maybe just has to do with like society of pops but yeah even if pops are playable probably should be more

[@holydoggo4822]

I’ve been watching a KZbin channel quite a bit called @AncientAmericas and that alone has really readjusted my perspective on how centralized and developed the natives were in a comparable sense to other native societies and even Europeans. For instance the Calusa people of Florida had a kingdom with tributaries and even fucked over the Spanish multiple times playing into their greed. They were the fishermen kings of Florida and being reduced down to a sop is a-historical if I’m not mistaken

[@jjjace2152]

@ yeah I’m aware of them I also read 1491 New Revelations of America before Columbus. Like tbh they need to both make a lot more SOPs landed countries and also make SOPs playable as they were able to trade and act as a semi-state, I mean they made the Frisian freedom playable and a lot of counties in Europe at the time wouldn’t exactly fit the modern definition of state either. I really hope someone can literally just get Ancient Americas themselves to point out how to make the map

[@youtubesenior654]

Everythings smaller in Texas

[@jarjab2games]

No great lakes tribes? They were pretty much settled pretty early on compared to other tribes.

[@SireBab]

I'm slightly puzzled why you are so against the colonial state borders on the east coast Lambert, as the ones that people usually take exception to are the west coast and rockies states that are boxes. If you look at the west and souther border of ohio for example, the southern and western border is defined by a valley and a river, our south eastern border is defined by mountains. Delaware and Pennsylvania are defined by the delaware river. The hudson river divides new York and new Jersey. And so on. Obviously there are some straight lines from colonial charters, but broadly i approve of the borders in north america east of the Rockies.

[@Lord_Lambert]

I am against straight lines. Whether those straight lines are in the west or east isnt relevant. I was mostly looking at Californias border on the map when referencing West, and Virginia/Tenessee in the East

[@SireBab]

I would have liked to see something about the iroquois honestly.

[@hircenedaelen]

I'd most like to see the Calusa of southern florida made a proper country, they fully functioned as one

[@cloudandclear5354]

I wonder if Skarureh is ancient Tsalagi, the Cherokee language? Or maybe the blue language without a name is Tsalagi? It's a pity we can't play as the biggest present day USA-tribe.

[@merpking748]

That's the Tuscarora. Honestly, I wish they just used English names. I get that's not their name in their language, but as someone who tried to do this on native american maps for a very long time, the "common people" absolutely despise it; they don't know what any of it means, which is fair. And Paradox didn't do this anywhere else: Austria isn't written as "Österreich"

[@merpking748]

Also to answer your question, yes blue is Cherokee. They divided the Cherokee into three cultures based in historical tribal bands. Not sure how I feel about that decision, I'm really not familiar with how homogenous they are or aren't.

[@williamdowsett3350]

As an illinoisian I'm kinda hype for the Cahokia tag tho

[@libertarianterminator]

That's fine. Wars with natives are so annoying since the expanded borders beyond their provinces. It makes it so hard to convert the cultures after conquering those empty claimed provinces.

[@SDM-Zone]

I'd like to play a society of pop but we will just have to see how they develop it. I'd be surprised if they developed it on release.

[@Vulcanus3231]

I disagree with the map layout choice you stated. I want it to look more modern with the post colonial borders. The frustration of trying to iron out a clean US /Canada border in eu4 is nauseating. Imagine playing as England and Scotland is just given all of Northumbria for “geographic realism reasons”. No thanks

[@miguelpadeiro762]

To be fair the ironing out of those borders is beyond EU4's timeframe, what would be weird is having provinces in the 15th and 16th century deliniating over arbitrary latitude straight lines over actual natural borders such as rivers, hills and forests

[@Ariaelyne]

@@miguelpadeiro762 My thought on it is I would be fine with geographic borders so long as they don't have area level bonuses like state decrees in EUIV. If I want to create the Thirteen Colonies or historical Quebec I don't want to be penalized because different parts of the areas aren't 'historical'. Edit: Although the idea of having the Thirteen Colonies be 10 or so areas is just masterfully ridiculous.

[@benismann]

@@Ariaelyne even then, areas still somewhat nudge you into doing borders by them coz of natural desire to complete things

[@gustavblackwell1494]

No. Just, no. Iriqois? Pennobscot?

[@youtubesenior654]

Man can we just talk hat an amazing job hey did on religions

[@HeroNotFound05]

There should seriously at least be the Mississippi and Haudenosaunee nations, this is wild

[@Radevere]

Lambert you are Names

[@HeroNotFound05]

It feel likes we’ve reverted to Vic2 Africa holy shit

[@Mizreg]

Noooo my Cherokeee :(((((

[@receivedbeans8555]

“What a blessed country” Amen brother🦅🦅🦅🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@Shayrin2]

Not gonna lie, anyone who complains about the lack of playable countries in America is… well let’s just say isn’t looking at this properly. North american natives are amongst the least played tags in Eu4. Pretty sure they are even lower than SEA. In SA you basically only have Cuzco, and the Aztecs in CA. Both of those simply aren’t played either statistically speaking, but iirc they were slightly more "popular" than SEA (especially after the latest DLC, tho only short lived). Like it or not, but spending time developing anything meaningfully playable in that area is very simply a waste of time and resources. I still remember the complains in eu4 when this was basically the state of the game. And then the DLCs came, and KZbinrs made 1 or 2 series there, and players tried a few games, beat up some European or got rolled, quit their game, and then that’s it. Nobody touched the area for a decade. Nobody cares about it either. The only reason there ever was a presence there is because of achievement hunting, and some meta-maxers (look, to each their fun but to me that’s a retarded way to play) who think "oh this game I’ll start as Iroquois to form England then Qing and end up as the HRE." Don’t get me wrong, I am not opposed to a very well done New World, but you also have to be realistic. From an economical and a player’s choice perspective, it very simply isn’t worth the hassle. Make a DLC in a year and get your 40$ which even those uninterested in the region will pay for some reason and at least get some money off of it.

[@aupra9010]

Maybe north America should have its societies of pops visible on the political map? also cant wait for mesoamerica !!

[@АндрейЕрмилов-х8п]

It's arizona not colorado

[@benismann]

honesty im not too surprised by the lack of natives on political map. It's not like we knew much about them in 1444, why would it be any better in 1337? I can agree that if SoP are NOT to be playable then more should be made into actual countries for all the 2.5 weirdos who like pain. (fr tho, it's a GAME, so there should be more if SoPs are not playable) Also at 23:13 - am i blind or where tf am i looking at?

[@Lord_Lambert]

Thats the market map

[@benismann]

@@Lord_Lambert yes but.... where is the ocean? Where does the land end? I just dont see it, it's just 2 big blobs with bright dots inside

[@Lord_Lambert]

the area to the south is another market originating in the Carribean if I were to guess.

[@leandro6234]

bruh

[@knuglear6936]

yo mum yeeh

[@breadbaskets2772]

Very disapointing

[@yannisbaum1319]

i love the way it is, though i hope more native nations will spawn over times or with events while the game progresses.

[@Shaman42069]

Tenth.

[@AriaLunaCampbell]

I feel like it's a bit of a disappointment and oversight not to include the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. Their society's system of governance was one of the key inspirations for the original form of the Articles of Confederation, prior to being watered down into an unworkable mess, for a reason. For such a long-running, stable society whose descendants still live on today not to get that honor while the already in collapse, waning Cahokia civilization does makes it feel like the devs are picking and choosing who is and isn't "civilized enough" based on pure vibes than an actual meaningful criteria. My point being, if Cahokia is going to be here, the Haudenosaunee absolutely should be, too.

[@merpking748]

Unfortunately, no. The Iroquois were unified sometime after 1450 according to current historical/archeological evidence. For now, they are societies of pops, but an event for them to emerge would definitely be warranted! As an aside, apparently, there is some evidence for an earlier foundation in the 1100s, albeit it still not the majority opinion. There is a theory regarding an eclipse that goes back to 1150 but from what I've gathered this position has been largely ignored since the 90s. Then there is a date around 1190 which is given officially by some Iroquois such as the Onondaga, but archeologists still conflict with it.

[@sentineloperator3333]

Thank fucking god, eu4 colonization became a hellish slog in recent years

[@johnpeluso8104]

Decimate means to cut down to a tenth

[@whitehawk4099]

Incorrect. The general use most people use is to remove a large percentage of whatever is being referred to. The historical usage was decimatio, where nine Roman soldiers were punished by being forced to beat the tenth until he was no more.