Sound System Subs - Crossover Basics

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Live from my new sound classroom, I'm going to be showing you how crossovers work with subs, and some pitfalls to avoid when trying to get that big, fat low end from your sound system.
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[@impactchurchindia]

youve saved our audio lives! Love everything you do and have signed up for the course. the videos are entertaining also!

[@jimpemberton]

This explains a lot. My subs at church are handled entirely by the DSP. It's a highly engineered system for a difficult room. So I never worry about the subs and it sounds fine. However, recently I was helping out a buddy at his church and he asked why his subs sounded muddy. I instinctively opened up the crossover and they immediately sounded better. Now I know why that worked.

[@LaminarSound]

Wow. Learned something I had never even thought about and it explains my real world experience. We use JBL SRX tops and bottoms. I have the internal DSP crossovers both set to 100hz and I’m running my bottoms 6-7db hotter than the tops. I get a significant build up around 180-200 that I adjust for on the parametric EQ on the 2-buss. I like my sound. But now I’m wondering how much better I can get it by compensating on the crossovers. 🤔🤔🤔 great video.

[@alexjonathan5398]

Thank you sir for the amazing insight and information!

[@robfriedrich2822]

There are some public address setups with 2 speakers for frequencies above 100 Hz and one or two bass speakers. Usually I made the experience, that when I replace the top speaker by a larger one (maybe the setup has 8" woofer in the top, I change to 10 or 12"), the sound improved.

[@jeffhirata]

Thanks for the great explanation! This has helped me a lot. Did you mean at 12:00 that you should move the high pass filter up to 150 but keep the low pass filter at 100. This would give a more even bass boost by decreasing the full range output at right above the crossover point and getting rid of that bump. If you move the whole crossover point up to 150, I don’t see why you don’t still have the same problem when you boost the sub 6dB. Just now the hump boost is above 150Hz instead of above 100 Hz.

[@xanderlorea]

very good information, I have presonus eris 3.5 which goes down to 80hz, and a subwoofer from Fluid Audio which goes from 50-200 hz, but the subwoofer seemed boomy at 80hz, so I put it as low at possible, at 50 hz and volume at -3db and it sounds way better, more unified and way clearer.

[@AttawayAudio]

Nice! I've learned a lot about crossovers since making this video, so I might post an update soon

[@stevenoconnor5693]

@@AttawayAudio I have a bowers and Wilkins set of 805 d3 42Hz to 28kHz What would you consider a good crossover point?

[@EqDior]

Excellent video.

[@Bimmedroid]

If u move your Crossover from 100 to 150hz, you will have to timealign or phasealign your System again to get near 100% summation (which would be +6db btw). Your subs have to play well up to 150hz (maybe 200hz), which isnt always easy for 18“ or 21“ subs. Letting subwoofers play much beyond 100hz makes them sound directional. That‘s often a problem if they are not placed left/right tight to the tops. I would stick to the 100hz crossover, level match subs with tops, timealign/phasealign to get good summation at my desired crossover and achieve a flat frequency response. After that use a lowshelf filter to set your house curve to what u prefer.

[@isaaccraig3666]

Not a sound engineer but heavily into home theatre and love LFE So your point about raising sub gain to add a 6dB shelf , and how it changes the xover was an eye opener. Great video. And it inspired me to spend some more time on REW/ DSP to get that xover right . Cheers

[@AttawayAudio]

happy listening! after gaining more experience and understanding since making this video, I've realized it's more about measuring what's happening in real life than adjusting for what's happening in theory

[@markedwards3729]

This topic is way more complex than I expected. You made it clear though.

[@AttawayAudio]

I know, right? The more I learn, the more I figure out I DON"T know 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@edenmusics933]

Sir your very very good plese send dbx 260 driverack settings

[@simpremuisaac1005]

Please I need best settings for 1234xl crossover and 31band equalizer for church sound passive speakers

[@77kingofclubs]

We have the behringer X32 board with 2 subwoofers and 2 main speakers with woofer, mid and high speakers. Currently we are using the subs as just another speaker instead of a subwoofer. I don't feel this is correct and is probably causing intermodulation distortion. Is this the case and what are your suggestions?

[@SuAmigoElilegal]

Question please. I have 12 inch subwoffer that has crossover selection from 70 to 150 heartz. Now I have my loud med speaker in 15 inch. Now when I select the crossover at 100 heartz I seem to loose volume and basically lots of my loud speakers. M I setting the crossover to much for my loud speakers? If I keep turing up the crossover about 150 heartz does that means I will take off most of my loud speakers

[@johnlopez2475]

I do use subs on an aux or out of my mono channel... I do like doing it this way , but I know I need to refine it a little better... thanks for the info

[@AttawayAudio]

if it works for you, go for it. Low-frequencies have SO many variables, I'm not one to judge

[@enochernandezls]

Thanks for all the info man

[@AttawayAudio]

You bet 😃

[@Herm-Jan]

Hey, Great video again! Are you planning on making a video on how to ring out a room? With pink noise or something? Would be interested to see. Thanks anyway! H.

[@AttawayAudio]

Yes, that’s in the works. Thanks for the comment!

[@lwooin]

Thank you for the great video explaining crossover. To get started, should I first look at recommended cross over point for sub first (say 120 Hz) then set full range speaker at 80 Hz and see what it sounds like? and I would roll down speaker Hz may be about 10 Hz each to find the best frequency point.

[@AttawayAudio]

The more I look into this, the more complex it is. But matching the crossover point is always a good place to start.

[@wesleyjeanpierre5856]

Thank you for every great videos you make.. i use to put my subs in the aux for a better control of bass in my small church..is this not the better way !

[@mark17840]

well to tell you my subwoofer on 120 LFE I LOVE THE SOUND ANY WAY YOU PUT TI

[@lifesoundmixing6119]

Hello...did you use an external speaker management processor?

[@d-rock737]

Easy peasy. Thank you

[@broadcastedtube]

Good video thanks!

[@broadcastedtube]

Good video thanka!

[@ali-sleimanchehade6129]

Dose it work as well for car audio?

[@christopherglass1206]

Just a newbie question here, why do most say to run your sub on your receiver to 80hrz and the cross over on your sub to fulll

[@michaelagyemang9639]

What about using the Drive rack Pa2 as system manager? How do set the best optimal crossover, ew and compression for a great sound like yours. A video will be greatly appreciated. Thanks man👏👏👏

[@AttawayAudio]

Menu screens test my patience... so making a video on that is unlikely unfortunately.

[@asitsantra3491]

Very helpful sir..

[@AttawayAudio]

Awesome! Thanks Asit

[@zechariahblevins5670]

Great info! Curious as to why you couldn’t achieve the same outcome by moving the LPF down further to maintain a bit more low end in the tops? I know this is less about the actual numbers and more about the principle, but just kind of wondering if it would work if you started at a lower crossover for the subs. Thanks!

[@AttawayAudio]

You could, actually. But if you want to save more power for your subs, having them use a narrower bandwidth could help, and not under-utilize LF power from your tops. Your mileage may vary. Great question!!! Thanks Zachariah!

[@alexgerbrandt4844]

I have been using aux-fed-subs for years. Looks like that will be changing now. Thanks for this explanation! What is the most effective method to calibrate an equal starting level for both tops and subs? Pink noise through tops and subs at the same time while measuring with an RTA? Pink noise through one speaker at a time using an RTA? I'm assuming that an SPL meter wouldn't work well for this process??

[@AttawayAudio]

Hey Alex! You CAN still use aux-fed-subs, but you just have to be careful with the levels and the crossover point. But if you're going to feed the subs through the crossover from the stereo bus, you can use an RTA/pink noise to try and get the "trace" that you want, or even better, a FFT like Smaart, SysTune, SATLive, or RITA, so you can compare the test signal to the mic signal, and check how it compares. I'm working on a video to show that.

[@anantchari5083]

Great explain.....

[@AttawayAudio]

Thanks anant! 🙌

[@danielt7255]

We are upgrading our church sound system and adding a subwoofer. We are only adding one. We have two LR mains and two LR delays. We were planning on just putting the sub on the Mono bus of the X32. Is there another way that we should set up the subwoofer? Thank you for the videos and information! We really appreciate you sharing your expertise!

[@AttawayAudio]

That can work, but an external system processor will probably be better for you.

[@wrhdg]

Thank you !

[@AttawayAudio]

You’re welcome!

[@crayfish3629]

Which console is that..?

[@latchors]

Nice video, this is really something useful that I never tough to search for, keep it up. Also, I got a question: Is there an special reason why you pick 100 Hz for the crossover? Is it some magical spot that makes everything sound awesome or you 'just' pick it?

[@AttawayAudio]

I just picked it. Nice even number. And I’m a Monk fan. Each speaker and sub have their recommended crossover points and the discussion of such is for nerds nerdier than me.

[@robfriedrich2822]

100 Hz is the lowest frequency, a human voice can have and also the lowest frequency an acoustic or electric guitar needs to sound natural. The human voice is also the reason, why the setup 12" full range speaker with 15 or 18" is popular, all fundamentals of human voice are on the same speaker way, no crossover point interrupt it, like the 15" full range speakers do.

[@austinervin5752]

all your videos are great, i have recently purchased a portable powered pa system. it consist of 2 martin audio xp12 and 2 martin audio xp118 with a yamaha tf1 mixer. the mixer has a sub out on it but the loudspeakers also have just a out on them made to go to the subwoofers pairs. my question is should i just send my main outs to the loudspeakers and then hook the subs to the speakers or send main outs to the loudspeakers and then sub outs to the subs straight from the mixer?

[@AttawayAudio]

Nice speakers! Love Martin gear. Looking at the user guide, it looks like there's a EQ setting on the tops that sets the HPF at the right spot for the subs, so I would run from the mixer LR > tops, and then that output to the subs. They made them to play nicely together, so that's in your favor.

[@austinervin5752]

@@AttawayAudio thank you for the info! much appreciated. what are my options or how would i turn the subs up without turning everything up? would i have to use the gain on the subs themselves

[@AttawayAudio]

You could use a low shelf boost on your master bus EQ if you wanted. That’d be nice and smooth

[@allanjaypalomique7609]

good day sir,, on you what you prefer a good sounding crossover network processor for subwoofers on live set up???

[@AttawayAudio]

it's a complicated decision to make, and I keep varying my opinion depending on the situation.

[@angelitoaisporna558]

X-over points against levels, awesome topic🙌..

[@AttawayAudio]

Thanks Angelito! Love getting those “aha!” moments

[@Freakingbad89]

Got a question about connection do i run the main L/R to the subs then daisy chained from its mix output to my loud speakers? Or is it the other way around?

[@AttawayAudio]

Depends how they're designed. Some subs have an output that's high-pass filtered so the tops get their own bandwidth... I haven't seen a sub output for a full-range speaker though... not saying it's not out there, I just haven't seen it

[@ebukadabrinze1133]

What’s the recommended optimal output signal flow from the console to the top n subs? Given, sending the subs through an aux isn’t recommended

[@AttawayAudio]

Mix out > crossover/system processor > sub amp

[@sajidpena]

Is the console EQ the mixer? Room EQ a 31-band equalizer... what is system EQ? Thank you

[@AttawayAudio]

I mean individual channel EQ when I say console EQ. System EQ is a processor like a DBX DriveRack, Meyer Galileo, or LakeIO that takes the mix and sends it to the different amps and speakers with EQ and time-delay for each to make them all work as one system

[@jacobphilip1942]

Thank You.....

[@AttawayAudio]

You're welcome!

[@daveharp5726]

Mono system stereo board pan left for more Subs right for more top-end ?

[@AttawayAudio]

That might work as long as you don’t go further to the sub-side than center. Aside from post-production mixing, it’s rare that you’ll send something ONLY to they sub

[@ethanjones3992]

What about setting up a sound system using amps. Where does the eq go? I’m assuming before the amps.

[@AttawayAudio]

Processing goes before power amps. Unless it's a passive crossover inside the speaker, but that's not exactly what you're asking 😃

[@lucatiu1608]

Hey, do u have old videos were u talk about setting analog crossovers using analog mixers? I do get a hard time in setting the right frequency for low and mid output. Btw, our church uses 2 way xover. Im an avid supporter from tge Philippines 🇵🇭. Godbless Bro!

[@AttawayAudio]

God bless you Luca Tiu! Thanks for serving Jesus there in the Phillippines! I don't have any videos about analog crossovers. I might be able to do some digging and find one in the shop... Do the speakers have a recommended crossover frequency?

[@lucatiu1608]

@@AttawayAudio we use alto powered ts315s sub and ts218s for mains. I cannot find its recommended xover frequency. We are still using dbx external xover even though i believe it can be used even without the xover since it has a built in xover. What would u recommend? Thank you very much!

[@benbowden8177]

What about changing the crossover to a steeper slope to correct the issue around the muddiness? Maybe a sharp roll off?

[@AttawayAudio]

yes a steeper slope helps, makes it move the crossover point less

[@benbowden8177]

@@AttawayAudio thank you for the reply. I’m a mobile dj. I’m currently running 4x 18inch subs and two double 15+horn tops and another two but as singles along with 4 crown xti amps. Im looking at getting the DBX drive rack pa2 so trying to gain knowledge online. The idea of different presets for different set ups etc would be nice.

[@worldofthemusic8074]

Is it smart to cross over your tops at like 50hz and your subs at a 100hz to fill in the frequency around 80hz or so to get a better kick? Because when I did this on my pa it flattend the graph measured in around the 50 to 100hz range and sounded more full? Are there drawbacks by doing this besides pushing more power to your tops thans maybe necessary?

[@AttawayAudio]

honestly, it's more about measuring and testing with your gear to see what gets great results, rather than "thinking" about the solution too much

[@OwenHopwood]

Ray Romano!

[@josephvillafane1664]

how can I get as low as 1db sound out of my system and is it true if you can ,will it would sound better

[@AttawayAudio]

Hmm do you mean 1Hz? 1dB means one decibel of change, which doesn't make much sense in your question. Would love to help off you can clarify

[@chrismitlyng1411]

How many DB/octave do you typically use at the crossover point and why?

[@AttawayAudio]

great question! I've got another video about all that coming soon

[@jsgll...godgunsliberty1197]

What or how do you determine 100hz to be the crossover point ?

[@AttawayAudio]

Totally depends on the subs/speakers and where the drivers are most efficient. Most of the time they’ll have recommended crossover points in their literature.

[@jsgll...godgunsliberty1197]

I have Subs to an Aux send on my system, are you suggesting I have my Bass, and Kick sends to Subs always at Zero and adjust my Master Sub Aux , or my Master Sub Aux at Zero and I should be adjusting my bass, and kick, etc sends ?

[@AttawayAudio]

Make sure that the level is calibrated to where the system integrator set the levels with their test signal, which SHOULD be with the send/aux master at 0. Also, listen carefully that you don’t get an extra boost above the crossover frequency when you’re sending to the subs.

[@jsgll...godgunsliberty1197]

Attaway Audio Thank you, and keep up the great work, I find your pro tips, and information very useful and informative.

[@BrianSimmons]

Subs on an aux shouldn't be used as a way to "turn the low end up". If you use it like this, you are going to run into the issues here. Instead, subs on aux should be used as a way to NOT send signal to the subs except from the channels that you want. So you send bass, kick, etc, via the aux but you don't include your pulpit mics, choir mics, etc that absolutely don't need that low end. The individual aux send levels should be set initially (and set as post fader) and then not changed. Likewise the overall aux send level should be set up at unity and not changed either. If you need more bass guitar in the mix, you don't change the aux send level, you change the fader level which increases both the subs and main speakers together and keeps the crossover point stable. You should never say, "I need more low end" and reach for the aux send level. You should be increasing the individual channel faders that make up the low end elements of the mix.

[@rickwiggins283]

How do you mimic a Low-Pass Filter on the StudioLive since it has none built-in? I've tried using the Fat Channel EQ with my two subs on their own matrix, but this method is very clunky and has nowhere near the precision depicted on your whiteboard.

[@AttawayAudio]

You can't. You have to get an outboard processor. It's one of the really weak points of that board.

[@enochmarfo6158]

Please I want to register for the class. What's the website to register

[@AttawayAudio]

Here's the link to sign up for the waiting list bit.ly/WorshipSoundWisdomWaitingList

[@frederickgardiner7771]

Just watching this. My question is how do you move the crossover point at the first point 80hz but at 6db ? Instead of moving the crossover point 150hz

[@AttawayAudio]

Turns out crossovers are a lot less simple than they seem... but a crossover is basically a low-pass filter and a high-pass filter, so you'd just move the high-pass filter up higher on the mid/high signal rather than the sub signal.

[@frederickgardiner7771]

Got it! Thanks. You should do a video on Butterworth and Linkwitz filters. I see them in our dbx venu360 but not sure how they influence the sound at the basic level. My guess is those types basically give you low-pass and high-pass filters at different frequency and db

[@bennydrumming...2339]

Brother I'm new in sounds just learning will u plz guide me how to do room equ

[@AttawayAudio]

More videos on EQ and how to approach it for the room coming up 😁

[@bennydrumming...2339]

@@AttawayAudio 👍

[@diesirea2045]

so in our system setup, the sub is daisy chained into the fold back, am I out of line to correct this and swap it to the FOH speakers?

[@AttawayAudio]

yes, that will work better for you

[@diesirea2045]

@@AttawayAudio Thank you, I'm a quarter of the way into my audio engineering degree and stepping up in my ministry. Gradually fixing up errors that I'm now noticing and these videos are a real boost to my confidence, thank you for these type of content I've also received the pdf.

[@danmathews9376]

Ray Romano if he ran sound . Its uncanny. In a good way . I bet you hear that a lot. Love your videos.

[@AttawayAudio]

lol yeah not the first time :)

[@jade007z]

Just bought a "Soundcraft Signature 22" I want to use this mixer for live gigs, I know it has Left and Right Masters out to Speakers, But I also have 2 Subwoofer. How would I connect those?? Can I use Group 1 output for left Subwoofer and Group 2 output for right Subwoofer? (obviously using crossover/amp then to subs) Would I have to press the Group 1-2 on all channels? putting the Group 1-2 Volume same as master? Can monitors speakers be connected through Aux as a output?

[@AttawayAudio]

you could put the subs on a group, or you could use a crossover before hitting your mains/subs, or maybe your subs have a crossover passthrough built in. Monitors can be connected to the aux for sure.

[@jade007z]

@@AttawayAudio Thank you James! On using my 2 Subs, 1 on Group1 for Left and the other on Group2 for Right. Would that make my Subs Stereo?? keep being Awesome James!

[@AttawayAudio]

@@jade007z Yes but only if you send stereo information to them... like double kick drums? or a stereo synth bass with tremolo between the sides? could be fun, or could be ridiculously messy 🤣🤣🤣

[@jade007z]

@@AttawayAudio Great! Thanks again, Cheers! love your channel.

[@lukedavis3953]

Do you have any thoughts on Linkwitz Reiley or Buttersworth filters? I seem to have a hard time finding a live sound engineer discuss their preferences on this subject. Also, I know a lot of it depends on room and pa.

[@AttawayAudio]

I've recently become acquainted with them through the editor of Live Sound International, and I have to say, I have a LOT to learn about crossovers and speaker processing. I'm planning on making an update video on this topic to share how my views have "evolved" with new information. Always growing!

[@MichaelCurtisAudio]

Hey, Luke! Long story short, Linkwitz Riley filters are -6dB at their filter cutoff frequency vs -3dB for Butterworth filters. That makes LR filters steeper which can give quicker separation between two different sources. Most speakers already have a natural "acoustic" rolloff (a sub with a 100Hz internal crossover doesn't fall off like a cliff after you get above 100Hz, it gradually rolls off). Given speakers already have a natural acoustic rolloff, I generally START with a Butterworth filter that's gentler on my mains, then compare how the phase response is impacted vs my subs. Most subs already have a built in LPF at their crossover built in, but most mains need a HPF engaged through DSP or one built into the speaker.

[@lukedavis3953]

@@MichaelCurtisAudio That’s helpful! For small to medium size venues that do not have a designated crossover I prefer to setup aux fed subs. I setup the tops and bottoms for full range on three separate matrixes. I started using Butterworth and I tend to prefer it on most systems. I was unsure about when to use a Linkwitz Riley. I should have looked it up but this location seemed appropriate to ask but I still tend to prefer Butterworth. 😅

[@MichaelCurtisAudio]

@@lukedavis3953 Makes sense! I'm a little confused though on your Matrix allocation. You say you use three matrices, but talk about tops and bottoms (two zones). Where does that third matrix send come in to play?

[@lukedavis3953]

@@MichaelCurtisAudio On matrices to adjust the blend depending on what's appropriate. I'm also OCD about leaving master fader at zero or unity and I have two matrices to spare. Main L Main R Mono Sub

[@allanpita79]

Great 😎

[@AttawayAudio]

Thanks Allan!

[@deancarr5153]

super pumped. ohh No!

[@TheWinndizzle]

Would your crossover be influenced by the general resonances and standing waves in a given room? Would you have to consider this when determining the crossover or would you notch that troubled frequency out? I mix in a room with a crummy hump at about 26 and every harmonic of that. I know treating the room to account for reflections and areas of standing waves is best but I’m curious to how you’d handle this. Perhaps in part 2 you could account for standing waves and areas of high and low pressure in a room. It would be nice to hear how you take the actual room your in and it’s constructive or destructive effects on a frequency into account

[@AttawayAudio]

as you've discovered, low frequencies are exceedingly complex in the confluence of two sets of loudspeakers (mains and subs) and room modes and reflections. But as many variables as there are, it's still best to take baby steps in the right directions with regards to time alignment and crossover points. That being said, I'm not sure the crossover point would make a significant difference in the resonances, whether the subs or the tops are amplifying that frequency.

[@gabrymendful]

❤

[@djmarybaloo]

👍

[@michaelanderson4265]

I don’t like subs on an “Aux”, and prefer a high quality external crossover..!! ( know your speaker specs )

[@AttawayAudio]

I can see it going both ways, especially after more research since doing this video.

[@CarlsOpinion]

@@AttawayAudio Good open mind! Merry Christmas! One thing to also consider, is that some of us who subscribe to your site can only afford consumer grade Subs. The benefit to using an aux send to feed the Subs, is that you limit the information going to them, and hence they don't have to overwork, which is easy to do on consumer grade Subs. That way you get the really great sounding Kick and Bass Guitar on the low end. I saw one guy recommended a 3 db cut on the crossover point on the mains, to prevent the boost you speak of. I've been using a 48db per octave slope (butterworth, and soon will be testing linkwitz, on dbx 360), and I did notice a summation problem within the first 20 feet from the speakers(actually running 4 way (subs 45-80 hz; tops- 80-500; 500 - 2.2khz; and 2.2khz - 18khz)). Funny, when I went out past 20 feet, it sounded great. Have a good one. Thank you. God Bless and Merry Christmas. Carl

[@DJ_HRS_BR]

👍🏻

[@scarymovie636]

+6db? Wont that bring distortion?

[@AttawayAudio]

only if you clip something

[@scarymovie636]

@@AttawayAudio Clip? Everything over -0db is distorsion?

[@claudiokay]

⁠@@scarymovie636you probably mean 0dbFS?

[@user-cd7zw8qv6e]

🤦🏻‍♂️6dB! not 3dB

[@rusinjeff5959]

I’m a professional that’s why I have a drink sitting right in front of my board

[@AttawayAudio]

Screw top lid

[@djmarybaloo]

👍

[@rockybrown417]

👍🏼

[@AttawayAudio]

🙌🙌🙌