Sovereign VS Scimitar (Mass Effect vs Star Trek) - Spacedock Versus.

Spacedock pits Mass Effect's Sovereign against Star Trek's Scimitar.
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Intro Sequence Features elements of "Simian UI" by Kristoffer Brady, and music by CMDR Hugh Mann (The First Encounter), appropriate links follow.
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Spacedock does not hold ownership of the copyrighted materiel (Footage, Stills etc) taken from the various works of fiction covered in this series, and uses them within the boundaries of Fair Use for the purpose of Analysis, Discussion and Review. Produced by Daniel Orrett. Owner/Executive Producer at Spacedock.

[@Spacedock]

So this is kind of an experimental idea and it's pretty different, there may be some pretty sweeping changes to the formula depending on what you guys think. I would like to thank all of Spacedock's Patreon supporters though, as this kind of experimentation would not be possible without them. :)

[@Vorisk]

This was great i hope to see more.

[@Phenix1234HD]

Spacedock Thank the Maker that you dind't pull a ERBH and let us chose the winner

[@Falamee158]

In retrospect, it does make a lot of sense. Given that Sovereign had never faced energy weapons on the same scale as what Star Trek is fond of. I'd imagine they would have a similar amount of trouble against a quantum torpedo from a Federation ship. But the cloaking device well and truly was the trump card in this battle.

[@halorecon95]

This was truely great! It well exceeded my expectations. Thank you for doing this series. Now we can forever settle those schoolyard discussions about who would win in fights! :D

[@galacticvagabond9772]

Very well done. You actually made this fun to watch and listen to. So many VS. series are simple recitation of facts or a fan boy trying to prove that X is always going to beat Y. Your conclusions actually seem to make sense. I would recommend Battlestar Galactica or Babylon 5 for future shows. I wonder how a Minbari Warship would stand against a Star Trek ship. Or for that matter Vorlon or Shadow (Yes, I love B5 and BSG!). Anyway fabulous job and I am looking forward to more.

[@brokeneyes6615]

Later, Sovereigns broken hull was probably displayed on Romulus and begin to indoctrinate the entire Romulan star empire.

[@GeorgeMonet]

Wouldn't be a problem. Romulans are used to working with Borg technology which is drastically more invasive as borg tech can even assimilate rocks and does so within seconds whereas Reaper nanobots take days.

[@ferrisbreiss1649]

GeorgeMonet In STO we can see what happends to the Romulans that were working with Borg tech. Needless to say it wasn't pretty. Also, Reapers don't need nanobots to indoctrinate, sure it enhances, but taking over Romulus via officials studying the Reaper hull... It happend to the Batarians already and they were a arrogant, highly militarized faction too.

[@brokeneyes6615]

GeorgeMonet Think of it this way: Borg tech: Brad Pitts ten second WWZ zombies. Reaper tech: resident evil t-virus air form. The borg the tech is scary because it's fast but when someone is infected, it's immediately apparent and within minutes their a known danger. With reaper tech on the other hand you don't know when their affected and you don't know when they became a danger until after they've done something that shows their indoctrinated. Given in at least the next generation, several Romulan captains clearly stated that they would have no problem displaying the whole of the enterprise in the capital of Romulus as a war trophy, I get the suspicion that the short-lived leader of the star empire not only do the same but make it a part of his palace. The reapers are smart and figure if they lose the battle they can win the war when their tech is is studied by organics. There should be a rather interesting epic battle for Startac to do, if the next generation galaxy can stand up against a Reaper invasion.

[@Xenotaris]

T-Virus isn't airborne! Have you played the Resident Evil games! But yeah I agree with you on the whole indoctrination thing, in the end the Reapers would win.

[@MikMoen]

+GeorgeMonet Reaper Indoctrination isn't a physical thing, Reaper's emit an energy field that affects your mind. Merely being in proximity would begin the process while the Borg have to physical inject nano machines into your bloodstream.

[@ThePizzaGoblin]

Jokes on the scimitar: the reaper tech they would gather from sovereign's corpse would indoctrinate the crew. Sovereign wins by technicality

[@NigerianNinja-d6h]

Indoctrination takes a long time, possibly weeks or months. Just sayin....

[@darthjerh12]

The Laughing Man bahahahaha that's the point.

[@ColonelBragg]

Well Star Trek tech seems to be capable of detecting and neutralizing almost everything

[@AsbestosMuffins]

as a clone of pickard shinzon is immune to all forms of mind control due to having a very reflective head.

[@gabrieleprinciotta3314]

Then how did the Citadel races successfully reverse-engineer things from Sovereign's wreckage without getting indoctrinated?

[@chrisbostick6804]

Sovereign VS Scimitar Sooo....Star Trek: Nemesis then? ;)

[@ardyn407necroderg]

Well your technically not wrong

[@eugimon]

Nice analysis. Though I question the idea that sovereign would move around the debris field rather than moving through it and claiming the center. The reapers like to sit on things, it's more likely he'd ignore the debris hazard as we've seen reapers moving through congested space. Having to maneuver the scimitar through a debris field would then negate much of the cloaks advantage.

[@jasoncaldwell8199]

Can we PLEASE get more of these? I personally love this matchup and your breakdown of the battle.

[@weldonwin]

Death Battle for Starships. Can we have the MCRN Donnager VS The Galactica?

[@KingreX32]

weldonwin holy fuck. yes. That I'd like to see. I'd be rooting for Galactica though. Gotta respect the Big G. Hell I'd become a patron supporter for that battle.

[@thadarasx4]

That one's pretty easy. Galactica has FTL, magical artificial gravity, and inertial dampers. Expanse ships follow the laws of physics a lot more.

[@TheArklyte]

+thadarasx4 yep, so the moment Galactica is placed in arena, it falls victim to laws of physics ripping it to pieces before Donnager reaches it. But seriously, haven't we discussed exactly this scenario before?

[@weldonwin]

FTL won't matter in the actual battle, unless they are planning to pull a manouver like the on New Crapica where they jumped into the atmosphere, then jumped out again as they were falling and the artifical gravity won't make a huge difference either. The Galactica and Donnager share similar weapons, bringing missiles, railguns and slug throwers to the fight, but the Donnager brings a very different air group, in the form of its squadron of Corvette class frigates compared to Galactica's vipers and raptors. And if things go to a boarding action, MCRN brings marines in powered armour.

[@hansolo4017]

ahahahahyaha you think it would be a fight??? galactica is like 40x the size and has guns as big as the donnagers bridge

[@barcod11]

Necron tomb ship vs borg cube

[@SultanOfAwesomeness]

This.

[@FilmGuy7000]

Necrons would probably win that, needless to say, it would still be BAD ASS!

[@mikea2363]

XD thats soooo unfair.

[@Litany_of_Fury]

unless the cube feels like suicide ramming the Tomb Ship I don't see how they could win.

[@Litany_of_Fury]

Somehow I think the Necrons don't give a shit what the Borg are.

[@tetsubo57]

Two things I can see. 1) Like most space simulations it doesn't really reflect the three dimensional aspect of space combat. 2) Why would Sovereign close? He had an uncloaked target ready for elimination.

[@FyurianPrime]

Aside from how space combat works in Mass Effect (projectile weapons, travelling at extremely high speeds over long distance, with the main guns on dreadnoughts being pretty much the entire length of the ship, all whilst having to take into account heat generation during extended battle), full size dreadnought/Sovereign class Reapers either smash through while firing, or crush/rip apart other ships, since they've got the largest and most powerful element zero cores. They're basically juggernauts in space. With the biggest guns to boot. Whilst Reapers don't have crews that are affected by the build up of heat generated by weapons, or the build up of electrical charge from their mass effect fields, a protracted battle could still lead to extensive internal damage simply from over use of weapons and the charge build up from the main core. (The electrical charge has to be regularly discharged, to negate the risk of built up electricity arcing causing crew death/damage to a ship.) Typically, most battles against full size Reapers in the Mass Effect trilogy don't last long enough... because ramming speed with artificially increased mass at high speed for something it's not firing at. Whilst I don't dispute the outcome, I'd have had Sovereign just go through the debris field. Wouldn't have affected kinetic barriers (not travelling fast enough), or done anything more than negligible surface damage to its hull. The scattered debris would be more of a hazard for the Scimitar, forcing engagement from further away, and more liberal use of hit & run tactics to avoid the more sizeable debris that would be an issue for the shields, which the Scimitar was more than capable of with its ridiculous manoeuvrability.

[@mobiuscoreindustries]

@@FyurianPrime indeed, on top of that, sovreign did in fact completly disregard anthing in his path when he came to the citadel, plowing trough everythign without even bothering to fire

[@frosty19901]

@@FyurianPrime I do dispute the outcome... Sovereign would never go for the wing, the presenter simply forgot what he said a few minutes prior "Ancient machine" "Intelligence", it would simply aim to crush the center mass of the enemy ship, or smash right trough with it`s tentacles, so that it destroys/ disables generators, crew and command links... even if that did not work, depressurization from multiple gigantic breaches would kill off the crew in moments, or the ship would simply break apart (or simply impale it`s tentacles and spread them to rip it apart)... As Sergeant Zim put it "the enemy can`t press a button if you cut off it`s hands".

[@FyurianPrime]

@@frosty19901 You clearly need to work on your reading comprehension, because you literally repeated points I'd raised.

[@Roosauec]

"The battlefields and environments in which the scenarios take place, will be reduced to 4 possibilities (I.e. Nebula, Asteroid Belt, Ice Field, Pulsar System) and then a single choice will be selected by popular vote on the Spacedock Patreon Page. All battles take place on a single two-dimensional plane, meaning all obstacles must be circumnavigated to avoid collision. Please remember that while these versus scenarios are written with great care to ensure unbiased comparison, their purpose is still for entertainment and their outcomes should not be taken as inarguable truth, one of the great virtues of science fiction is its ability to inspire us to debate and discuss its ideas, and every viewer maintains the right to their own opinions and points of view."

[@jamesp8164]

I do not believe Sovereign would've survived the opening salvo from the Scimitar. In Mass Effect, it's stated that the combined fire of three (or it might've been four, haven't played ME3 in a while) dreadnoughts were sufficient to overpower a large Reaper's barrier and destroy it. The dreadnoughts of Mass Effect used mass drivers that impacted with something between 40kt and 60kt TNT equivalency of kinetic energy. So, somewhere between 120kt and 240kt of continuous KE bombardment are sufficient to breach Sovereign's barrier. The TNT equivalent power of heavy weapons in Star Trek such as plasma torpedos are measured in the ***megaton*** range. This is a degree of power a Reaper barrier is not engineered to withstand. A single salvo from the Scimitar should've been sufficient to win the fight outright. According to ST materials, last I read was that Starfleet's photon torpedos have a TNT equivalent yield around 60 megatons. A single torpedo would probably be sufficient to end a Reaper permanently. Perhaps the barrier would fail but still protect from the worst effects; in that case, use two torpedos. To be fair, this would not make for an interesting contest, but this is the most likely outcome based on the hard math that comes out of both franchises.

[@raideurng2508]

At the same time, an ISD has firepower that dwarfs either of these, and they're relatively common....

[@givemeanameman1]

@@raideurng2508 Starwars "firepower" is so over the top that they would be shooting billions of tons by mass of matter per second... or to put it simply, the entire mass of a imperial star destroyer if converted to energy is LESS then the energy they shoot in a battle...

[@limburgishmapping7166]

@@raideurng2508 an ISD is easy to outmanouvre due to the locations on the hull and the inherent range limitations of turbolasers. The only superior technologies an ISD has is its close range weaponry and FTL propulsion system. A couple of photon torpedos would make a quick end of it.

[@thelordofbacon4258]

@@limburgishmapping7166 Two Javelin torpedoes on the ISD's shield generators and a Massdriver shot from an Everest class dreadnought should also kill an ISD. The energy of a turbolaser shot is mostly thermal and not kinetic, so it should be relatively easy to deflected from a mass effect shield, since mass effect shields only count on the mass of the projectile to be stopped.

[@limburgishmapping7166]

@@thelordofbacon4258 agreed

[@ThrawnFett123]

I slightly disagree with Sovereign's reaction here immediately after encountering the cloaking device. He was a scout that theoretically knew the capabilities of everything that could reasonably exist in the galaxy. Thanks to being the vanguard of the Reapers he would be hyper alert for any signs of technology not following the pre-blazed paths the Reapers had established to fast track cultivation. Especially a threat so significant to their plans as perfect cloaking technology. Given the intelligence of the Reapers and the fact they are computer based allowing near instant decisions, I think he would have shifted from overconfidence to full threat assessment immediately. Thereby deploying the Oculus drones immediately instead of in response to a surprise hit shaking him out of it later. This of course would shift the course of the battle dramatically and changes reactions. Sovereign would likely have used the remains of the space station to help supplement his own defenses. The drones would likely have pin-pointed the Scimitar as previously occurred. Instead of that being an opening to Sovereign's own attack he probably would have all of the drones attempt to board immediately in an attempt to capture and study this new technology. This seems to me a more likely course of action, but I don't have a real feel of what which combatant would be more successful in it. Because a perfect cloak is literally the worst-case scenario for Reapers. They rely on completely controlling the information and technology that reaches the next galactic generation, and a threat such as that cannot be allowed to remain unchecked. It must be captured and studied at all cost's, possibly to be applied to the Reapers as a whole. Or worse case nothing can stand in the way of destroying it, and all actions must be devoted to the sole task of killing it. Just ask Shepherd if Sovereign is infallible in it's execution of those goals though. But also keep in mind that Shepherd was a curiosity, a deviation from, but still within, the norms. Not yet a total existential threat to the Reapers when Sovereign was interacting with them.

[@sigmacademy]

That would be only when you consider that cloak technology is fully undetectable. Being in a debris field, I (as the Reaper) would immediately start firing in all directions, trying to break off pieces of the debris field and create a free floating debris field around me. That way, the cloak will be disrupted and the shielding of the enemy vessel will also take a beating, making it easier for me to detect and destroy the threat.

[@sigmacademy]

I once read a novel about an alien ship (after having expended its small complement of weapons), used water in their cargo hold as a projectile (as it had become solid as soon as it was vented into space and the ship traveled at high speed towards it's target and veered away, creating a sling-shot type of projectile. The same unconventional type of tactical thinking might also be in order for cloaked targets. ;) :P

[@mr.e0311]

It was a star trek fanboy.. So nmw star trek was gonna win.

@@mr.e0311 He actually has a deep love for Mass Effect, even other KZbinrs (I think Eckhart was) said to consider Daniel a true expert on Mass Effect...

[@Amoth_oth_ras_shash]

seconds that ,but these kind of decisions is sort of up to the 'writers' ..then agen i agree that sovereign would decide it needed to blind fire or start make debris for ma makeshift whiplash extra shield around it as it studied sensor data in more detail.. after all ,even in a galaxy where it knew the capabilities of every space faring species and basicly could probe any relay for all data of vessels travling through it or near it , sovereign acted with extreme subtrefuge so....ye , it encountering anything space faring it not hade at least basic data on allready and being a hyper intelligent entity with the thought capacity of billions operating at optic speeds so to speak i doubt the war bird would be able to sneak up like that.. i find it more plausible that the shin shon would fight and then detect the pattern in its foe not wanting to destroy him outright but obviously capture him for study ,and try use that to lure the beast close in an effort to graple and cripple the warbird to limit its options and at the same time disgorge its hoard of servitors ,be it nanites or husks into it..wich obviously would mean some trek magic talk about jurry rigging the torpedos like someone used to jurry rig and steal cars back on earth while a savage gurrila fight went back and forth through the ship ,since initial victories by the trek quickly make them notice ther foe where collecting the dead etc etc ^^

[@Firehawk376]

Greatest edge given in this video for the Scimitar: "Perfect Cloaking Device" Scimitar's actual greatest edge: Energy weapons with megaton-gigaton range yields and shield to match, going up against an enemy whose main gun can only hit hundreds of kilotons and whose shields do nothing against energy weapons at all. The Scimitar can literally blow the Reaper apart with a single shot while the Reaper can plink away at the Scimitar all day and not get anywhere. The cloak is entirely superfluous to this calculation.

[@SheosMan117]

I still think Sovereign would get the last laugh in the end though, even after death. Scimitar crew might want to examine his wreckage, which would in turn, indoctrinate them.

[@RollerCoasterDreams1]

Ideas for Versus Series: Star Wars: Imperial Star Destroyer vs Star Trek Dominion Battleship Star Wars: Imperial Executor Class Dreadnought vs Star Trek: Borg Cube Star Wars: Death Star Vs Star Trek Borg Cube(s) Halo: Covenant Assualt Carrier vs Imperial Executer Class Dreadnought Star Wars CIS Luckerhulk-Class Battleship vs Imperial Star Destroyer

[@SpiritAce33]

The Raccoon Frontiersman I want to see 1 Klingon battle cruiser and 2 Klingon bird of prey vs 1 Imperial Star destroyer.

[@wickiei4556]

Death star vs. Borg Cube is a pointless battle...

[@fakedthunder]

Wickie LP why ?

[@ferrisbreiss1649]

However, if transport would be enabled the borg would just assimilate everything inside the Dstar so it's really one sided either way

[@MPHIY17]

Borg drones beam into control room, assimilate officers. Battle over. :/

[@GTD_Galatea]

A few considerations: - The idea of a specific battlefield type is pretty cool - Please, in future videos, take into consideration that you can also attack from above and/or below in space. The Scimitar didn't necessarily have to approach from the right. - Sovereign could have used its indoctrination powers to cause hallucinations and turn some of the Scimitar's crew to its side. - A victory that renders your spaceship unusable isn't a victory. I would rather call this match a draw. - Sovereign is arrogant, but not stupid. It would likely have used its indoctrination powers to know its enemies first, by probing into their minds (something it did with Saren) before attempting anything else. It was a really nice video, though. Congratulations.

[@Greil9]

Thing is, the indoctrination effect takes a lot of time. Days if not weeks. That battle would have lasted half an hour at most, meaning the indoctrination doesn't have time to settle.

[@Skirne]

Greil9: This. Besides, how would the indoctrination tech penetrate the Scimitar's shields? Presumably the indoctrination weapon is EM in nature.

[@Greil9]

Its nature was never made clear, but in ME universe shields proved ineffective against indoctrination as far as I'm aware. At least personal shields did, I'm not sure any ship remained close enough to one for such long times. A cerberus science team did get indoctrinated and must have had a ship, but they still went inside several times to study the derelict reaper.

[@jameshuke354]

Ye, the reapers indoctrination is very powerful , they manged to turn the Illusive man who was probably well defended from indoctrinations

[@SiphonRayzar]

Indoctrination takes time. Like, a few weeks at minimum to indoctrinate someone. Not enough time to be of any use in a battle like this one.

[@emmanuel4989]

Harbinger would have made more sense that's the most powerful reaper and their leader.

[@colbyclark7779]

There is nothing to suggest that Sovereign and Harbinger have any distinct differences in design (they're both referred to as "Sovereign Class")

[@emmanuel4989]

@@colbyclark7779 It said on the codex that harbinger is the oldest and largest in the reaper armada. He's also more unique in design compared to all the other sovereign class reapers and is their leader. Harbinger is bigger more powerful and more experienced than sovereign, he would have been a better match up.

[@mr.e0311]

After eradicating tens of millions of civilizations we're supposed to believe that they all had mass effect tech and nothing else..? That's short sighted.

[@Ashair1]

I'd like to propose some alternate endings (in which Sovereign isn't dumber than a cadet learning Newton's first law on the Citadel): 1. While we see Sovereign quickly close to short range in the Mass Effect series, these are scenarios where he faces entire fleets of ships simultaneously or has a specific goal in mind (reaching the citadel control tower). Approaching to short range makes sense in these instances, as it allows Sovereign to bring all of his weapons to bear against multiple targets simultaneously, ending the battles as quickly as possible. In this scenario, he is facing a single, large target. Even if he is overconfident, I think Sovereign would tend to open this battle with his long range, single target weapon, the high velocity rail gun. To this end, his first move would be to move laterally to get an angle at the Scimitar at a distance and end the battle quickly, simply, and easily. 2. Given Spacedock's explanation of overconfidence, it's possible Sovereign would initially close rapidly with the Scimitar to attack at close range. In this case, the first exchange of volleys would play out much as Spacedock describes. However, once Sovereign has taken significant damage from the Scimitar's torpedoes, he would not make this mistake again. After both ships have rounded the central obstacle, Sovereign would utilize the terrain available and take up a more defensive position with his relatively vulnerable and damaged rear positioned against the debris field in the "upper left" of the map. This would limit the possible angles of approach for the Scimitar, forcing it to approach from Sovereign's more heavily armed forward section and making it easier for Sovereign's drone field to locate the Scimitar. This wouldn't affect the outcome very significantly though, as once they had located the cloaked ship, he would fire his long-ranged rail gun as described by Spacedock. However, once he'd scored such a decimating hit, Sovereign would not simply forget about the damage he sustained from the Scimitar's impressive weapons array. He would not make the same mistake twice by closing to grappling range after sustaining such heavy damage the last time. After dispatching the enemy fighters and approaching to within the effective range of his beam weapons, Sovereign would cut the damaged Scimitar to pieces with multiple vectors of powerful beam lasers. This is all just a discussion of hypotheticals though, and there's no reason my opinion should bear more weight than Spacedock's. Really, I'm just a big Mass Effect fan who doesn't want to accept that such an intimidating and powerful enemy could be defeated by such an obvious error. It just doesn't make sense for a sentient reaper with millennia of experience to make the same mistake twice, especially when he could easily end the enemy threat with a much safer and easier method.

[@mmyatt9560]

The sovereign firepower wise is in the 2150s weight class Vs Star Trek

[@plumetheum7017]

Even the weakest Trek ships take multi-megaton firepower on a regular basis. The Reaper's main cannon outputs 500 Kt max. All it would take is a dozen or so phaser or distruptor strikes to seriously damage a Reaper. If transporters were allowed then an old NX class could defeat sovereign by transporting a few of their torpedoes near the Reaper's mass effect core. Not to mention that it is possible for enough Mass Effect ships to come together and damage a reaper. I can imagine what an Intrepid class could do to one. Let alone a Scimitar.

[@CruelestChris]

Multi-megaton warheads aren't the same thing as a kinetic weapon with an effective energy of 450 kilotons: that's much harder to stop because all of its energy is focused forwards with a driving momentum behind it, rather than in a sphere. We've seen ST ships take ramming manoeuvres (ie, KE impacts) and it's not pretty: fully-shielded Klingon Warbirds were taken out by ramming attacks from single Jem'Hadar fighters in DS9. And given transporters are disrupted by almost anything, I doubt you'd be able to transport through Sovereign's outer shell, let alone anywhere near the core. Plus Sovereign has shields, no reason to think you'd be able to get around the "can't transport through shields" rule.

[@danielzaba9913]

i AGREE. :D nice vid though.

[@danielzaba9913]

I not think mister plumetheum that phasers would damage sovereign at all unfortunatly, we´ve weapons of mass destruction similar in star trek to the mass effect universe not even do a dent. 50 million years of tech advancedments would not just let phasers get past the shields. It´s not about how many kt the reaper produces it´s about how resistant he is to moore.....and yes many ships banding together could damage a reaper........but the ammount of firepower for that to happen is superior to what the scimitar could have done, maybe only with the thalaron it would have taken it out :D nice video though and im sure there´s many moore ships in the star trek universe capable of taking down a reaper if they combine :)

[@SFRobertsDickClarke]

I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed this content very much, and have watched it several times. It's really engaging to see these SF ideas treated so seriously and interestingly, and the battle you've created is very compelling and engaging. I really look forward to seeing more of these in the future. Thank you so much for creating some really great youtube content. This is exactly the kind of thing that the internet is for.

[@thelouster5815]

Wouldn’t the Scimitar destroy the Reaper in a couple shots? I recall Star Trek’s phaser and disruptor weapons being absurdly OP, being able to decimate a planet with a low yield burst.

[@EpicNerd]

Standard level star trek weapons can't destroy a planet, but they can damage it's surface, easily eliminate cities, and with high yield devices like a Tricobalt warhead, could crack the crust, a single ship could ravage a planets surface. That said, Star Trek does have it's share of Interstellar scale WMDs. Most of which are biogenic, toxic, or chemical catalyst devices that devastate a planets atmosphere, making it uninhabitable, rather than high yield explosives. However there are exceptions, like the doomsday device in TOS, or species 8472 in voyager, which with the power of crossing the streams, did blow up a borg planet. There is also the genesis device, which itself can be used as planet devastating weapon. The Most powerful WMD in film cannon is the trillium device (used in Star Trek 7). This Device when launched into a star, causes all nuclear fusion to stop, the star collapses in on itself and the resulting implosion creates a shockwave which destroys EVERYTHING in the system, even planets. In Star Trek Online, which is considered cannon, there are many other types of WMDs aswell. The one used the most was the protomatter bomb, which when detonated on a planet completely destroys the planets biosphere, killing anything alive on the surface. A similar device was used by the remans to destroy everything alive on a planet, but their device was based on thaleron. Also although this is never shown, the Iconians have tech that allows them to destroy any planet at will. The most devastating explosion is when the Iconians cause the hobus star to go supernova, and the shockwave apparently entered subspace to travel great distances (this is used to explain how a supernova can destroy planets in another system an entire sector away.) Making it the most powerful explosion in all of star trek cannon.

[@RealistRatRace]

@@EpicNerd damn u play Star Trek online too?

[@jonathansullivan6706]

@@EpicNerd As long as we're talking about the Iconians, if we're following STO's canon, the Iadon dreadnoughts have antiproton beam projectors that can destroy planets in a single hit.

[@GamePlayer553]

While I disagree with some of the smaller tactical moves made here, I loved the battle, loved the outcome, and I loved the balancing. Very well done here and I can't wait to see more!

[@MPHIY17]

It was interesting to see how he did this. While I disagree with the pairing it was an entertaining deathmatch. I can't wait to see more. :D

[@TealJosh]

All alliance ships from ST vs fully fledged reaper fleet(thousand capital ships and more or less amount of destroyer class) Now that would've been a fight.

[@Leadcolt]

YES YES IT'S HERE Also please do Halycon class cruiser from Halo against something from star trek

[@halorecon95]

Leadcolt No need really. Not to be mean or something but Halo and Star Trek are in completely different leagues when it comes to ship power. Only a couple of Covenant shipclasses or the Infinity would pose some form of threat against the average Star Trek ships. I'm afraid a Halcyon, even with the Autumn refit, wouldnt stand a chance.

[@Leadcolt]

Got a litte bit a head of myself so i think i'd prob change it to something like the Halcyon Class Cruiser (With Autumn refit) vs Battlestar Galactica

[@KingreX32]

halorecon95 you really think so? Halo ships are powerful as hell. the MAC guns alone I'm sure could take out any starfleet ship.

[@TheArklyte]

Halo is overhyped. Main victims of their MAC guns are... their own ships. Whoever was doing math on UNSC magnetic accelerators was drunk:D

[@Leadcolt]

Halo ships can be incredibly powerful, however given the extreme advantage of shields alone i'm sure something from Star trek wouldn't have too much trouble taking on a Halcyon.

[@anthonycoffey1992]

Interesting video but I do not believe Reaper shields are vulnerable to radiation at all as they can withstand orbit inside a brown dwarf and their technology allows space stations to be maintained when surrounded by black holes and the only thing it can't hold its own against are entire fleets

[@xWKDNiiNJAx]

anthony coffey Yes, words and such.

[@SiphonRayzar]

Considered its stated in game that Kinetic barriers only deflect ballistic weapons, you're just flat wrong.

[@meleemando7183]

Could be entirely wrong, been a while since I brushed up on my ME lore, but are you sure Reaper shields are the same as standard kinetic barriers? Or are they a big boy OP version or something else entirely?

[@oli74111]

They're most likely a "big boy op version", because first off, they use weapons that must be similar to the tech of their creators, which they exterminated, so it's those red energy beams, and so, they must have adequate protection against this type of weapon. Also, the reapers exterminated the proteans, which used energy and plasma based weapons, so they had to have a form of protection against it. Then, reapers also spend thousands of years studying their enemies before they invade them, which would give them plenty of time to adapt to the enemy’s weaponry. Finally, it's stated in the mass effect codex that you need about 3 dreadnoughts, or however many ships required to equal this firepower, together to even dream of taking out a reaper (and of course, the dreadnoughts will be eliminated before they can do some serious damage). So yeah, I believe they are perfectly protected against this kind of tech simply because they have a significantly different goal when fighting, which is why they have their self-created weakness, in order that someone might prove their goal to be wrong ^^ potential spoiler: (their weakness is not located IN them, it’s external)

[@Gothic7876]

The Protheans only developed Particle Beam Weapons AFTER the Reapers invaded. The Protheans didn't use Plasma or Energy based (barring PD) weapons due to Mass Effect, before the Invasion (Read up about the Particle Rifle you get in ME3). Don't forget Sovereign stated that the races of the galaxy develop along a predetermined path with Tech that the Reapers themselves use.

[@mistersmiley9425]

Everyone claims cloaking will always be superior in space and I'm here like "What about thermal..? That'd give away the ship, well it's engines at least, instantly..."

[@drosarius5929]

Mister Smiley yeah, it’s funny how all the Trek fans forget that Picard figured out pretty quick how to locate cloaked Romulans by particle emissions. Spock too with Chang’s BoP.

[@MyuriMiyu]

I thought only Destroyer class Reapers had that weak spot while priming.

[@charleshaynes2991]

I'm late to the party as well but your right. Nowhere in lore do sovereign class reapers have a weak spot like this, only destroyers. People here raise a lot of good points except I think its obvious indoctrination would have no effect in like a 5 minute space battle considering all evidence points to it taking at least 20 minutes lol

[@timothycotner3492]

There isn't really a scenario where it wouldn't be a weakpoint. With sovereign's shields down there wouldn't be anything to protect the weapon. Once you have a straight shot down it the only thing a sovereign class reaper could do is shoot first.

[@retrosquadchannel2.050]

@@timothycotner3492 why should Sovereign shoot? He can fly THROUGH his enemy.

[@timothycotner3492]

@@retrosquadchannel2.050 in this battle? No barriers to protect the hull. Too close to get up to speed. Otherwise, the reapers are arrogant af. Plus I'm pretty sure the whole ramming through a ship bit is more intimidation than anything else.

[@retrosquadchannel2.050]

@@timothycotner3492 yeah, say this to turian cruiser in Mass Effect 1. Sovereign just flew through and not a scratch on hull. Too close to speed? Sorry! Sovereign class reapers can turn around faster than any ship in ME universe. Talking about speed... Well it took a minute for another reaper of the same class to exit battle on high orbit of Earth and land on surface to tear everything apart. But the Sovereign's main problem - his frakking arrogance.

[@TheNikoNik]

I'm okay with the plasma torpedoes being effective agaisnt the ME barrier (because antishield plasma geth technology and stuff), but doing a full scan of the enemy vessel at close range without being noticed? you have very limited scanning capabilities with just receiving passive intel while cloaked, if you want the full info you have to scream your location with active scanning. And you basically gave the victory to the Scimitar by "derpingly" making Sovereign to release the ship and allow it to luckily turn its guns towards him.

[@platiuscyndar9017]

They've also heavily nerfed the Scimitars shields in the first place. These beam lasers shouldnt really be effective at all, and we also know that kinetic weapons have very little effect on them as well. oh, and we know that the scimitar can do the whole tech assesment whilst cloaked thing because... well its done that, asf ar as I'm aware.

[@Maeve_Rose]

@@platiuscyndar9017 it did. you are right. also. the scimitar's cloak reestablishes itself in seconds. not enough time for a MAC driver to lock on and fire unless you happen to get lucky and they are right in front of you. the primary and secondary shields of the scimitar withstood the full assault of the Enterprise AND two romulan warbirds while still only dropping the PRIMARY shields to 60%.

[@platiuscyndar9017]

@@Maeve_Rose mass drivers shouldn't require any form of lock on as they're dumb weapons, but if you can't aim quick enough you won't be able to target a quickly recloaking ship either way.

[@AvroBellow]

More than 2½ years later, this is still the best Versus matchup you've ever done. BRAVO!

[@TheKeyton777]

awesome fight, has one concern, I think u missed that the kinetic barriers on the reaper wouldn't stop the beam weapons, they are just energy

[@H1storyGuyVODS]

I know people like to hate on these videos or rant and rave when their guy doesn't win but I still love them.

[@drosarius5929]

Jeffrey Nelson the debate is a great piece of distraction though.

[@ExitonD]

Why on earth would Sovereign get close? He'd just shoot uncloaked enemy from a safe distance.

[@mrfister1234]

Exiton its part of a reaper dreadnaughts manouver. they would be firing WHILE getting close. its not like they would choose one or the other

[@ExitonD]

That's just speculations. On a side note I see no reason why GUARDIAN defenses would be ineffective against torpedoes. They are designed to combat exactly that kind of threat.

[@ExitonD]

I didn't know that. :) Reaper defenses still _might_ bring them down, seeing as everything reapers have is dis-proportionally more powerful compared to human tech.

[@mrfister1234]

Exiton thats not speculation when theyve done the manouver in the games lol. Did u even play them? This manouver is shown ALOT in the games. Like every time. during the battle for the citadel, battle of palaven, final stand at earth, etc. this isnt speculation but just based on how they behave. They will try to get invlose while firing and would try to rip the ship apart when they do get a grip on their target whilst firing

[@failandia]

well, look at reapers in game, they could just stay at distance and kill from afar, but they just love raming into ships

[@jmfowler9062]

This is the first spacedock video from me. Mentions from others star wars channels brought me here. Thanks for doing what you do. Big trek and wars fan

[@Sumaire_STi]

Quite an enjoyable presentation - I genuinely hope you do find the time to make more of these. You have a new subscriber, sir. :)

[@Heliodan326]

I tend, not to like any comparison of SciFi franchises. But your approach on this is absolutely brilliant. You don´t try to argue, what series has the "better" technological background. Instead you are telling what´s going on inside the ships CO´s head. The technological pros and cons of every ship are well implemented into this scenario. Please keep on the good work.

[@alexsch2514]

Well, the scimitar has some experience battling things called "sovereign" For anyone who didn't get that, the enterprise e was a sovereign class ship

[@zerox8413]

So Star Trek, Star Wars and Mass Effect had class called Sovereign class... 😵 Would bit confusing of which ones if details and where it coming from are not telling in ship vs ship battles 😅

[@AlternicityBlogspot]

Going out on a limb I reckon we all caught that one.

[@powerofanime1]

@@zerox8413 Next Versus should be Sovereign, Sovereign and Sovereign.

[@zerox8413]

@@powerofanime1 sovereign Reaver vs star trek Sovereign class vs Sovereign class super star Destroyer? Star Wars and Mass effect sovereign Definitely the most deadliest of 3

[@powerofanime1]

@@zerox8413 Yeah probably. But wouldn't that be a hilarious way to start a free-for-all? "I'm Sovereign." "No I'M Sovereign." "Bitch please, neither of you little shits are the real Sovereign."

[@treasurehunter3744]

Spacedock, I agree with this outcome, and I think this little secondary series has a lot of potential. Not only is there a lot of passion for Versus series on KZbin, this is a unique take on the genre and I heavily implore you to continue this line of work. Thank you for this video.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

In possession of Sovereign's main weapon versus a cloaked ship, the mart move would be to blast away at the station in the center of the battle area, scatting debris. Then watch for and shoot at anything invisible the debris bounces off of.

[@boooster101]

Generally I'd agree but you heavily underestimate space and the speed of the vessels It'd be like detonating a frag grenade inside a football stadion with two fast-running cats in it.

[@Mercilessonion]

@@boooster101 never seen an analogy fit the situation so perfectly

[@SGz_Eliminated]

I actually think that was a really fair battle, so well done on that. Despite the reapers age and experience, his foes technology was never that of the Scimitar so although he isn't useless he is definitely unprepared and unmatched. Like you said in the video, the reapers defences are designed to resist kinetic weapons and the reapers weapons are energy based which star trek shields are designed to resist. That said the Reaper is an extremely powerful vessel despite being unmatched so its not like it would be entirely one sided. All in all good battle.

[@chouderr1089]

Just gonna say reaper beams aren't energy based there molten metal sprays that are super heated allowing them a good compatability for all kinds of shields. Only ocules drones have energy weapons.

[@void2258]

I'm not really into this. Just like death battle, the number of restrictions and compromises needed to slot incompatible technologies together renders the conclusions manipulable based on writer bias and borderline meaningless (not a comment about you specifically, but the issues with this kind of comparison). I would much rather see more spaceships. How about some ships from Freespace?

[@JoranBerserk]

Please do more of these, well thought out and well executed. Since I'm in a streak of absorbing anything Warhammer 40k I would love to have anything non 40k vs 40k :D Keep up the good work!

[@mousermind]

This was so well-thought-out. The best battle vid I've yet seen. :o

[@braunXYZ]

Romulan threats are as empty as their future. Dust struggling against cosmic winds.

[@th3comb1ne13]

UNSC Infinity (halo) vs Retribution Class Super Dreadnought (Star Citizen)

[@pedrolucan4006]

angry try hard I'm pretty sure the forerunner engines, super MAC cannons, 4 heavy frigates in its hangar and spartan boarding parties make it a short battle

[@wickiei4556]

I dont have enough information about the retribution, because i couldn´t find any, but i would say, the infinity would basically destroy the retribution in the first seconds. Correct me, if i totally understimate the retribution

[@wickiei4556]

Pedro lucan the infinity carries 10 frigates and dont forget the archer missile, havoks, and the other weapon systems

[@th3comb1ne13]

Wickie LP **Compleat Underestimate** Star Citizen takes place in 2952. Halo takes place in 2531. We may not know much but the technology in SC is 400 years more advanced.

[@th3comb1ne13]

Pedro Lucan The technology in Star Citizen is 400 years more advanced.

[@scottduncan5525]

i wish this series kept going, imagine if we got a Romulan Warbird vs an Imperial 2 class star destroyer

[@Kryptonater1994]

This was bloody fantastic, excellent job! I cannot wait for the next one 😁

[@minitwins2000]

I love this was kind of hoping for a bit more analysis in the beginning comparing scanning ability weapons systems armor etc, directly. Granting edges to each side based off of those statistics. Its just a thought. What you have right now though is awesome I love it. I especially love the tactical map style view for when the battle plays out. Makes this feel like a genuine naval tactics analysis.

[@dianapennepacker6854]

Yeah I don't know what these weapons are doing. Theoretically ME weapons should be just as powerful as the energy weapons used in ST no? I mean being able to change the mass of a projectile at FTL speeds? Also Element Zero, whatever the hell it is.

[@loupnuit1]

Why would sovereign go around the derelict space station? Its main weapon can blast straight through it or rip it apart so the debris becomes a bigger hazard. There is little that can stop it.

[@mihugong3153]

Oh.My.God. This is GREAT. I really like your usual data-videos, but clearly, you can do so much more.

[@IgnoredAdviceProductions]

Can you please do more of these Spacedock Versus videos? Please?

[@blahblahghost]

"Any and all battles simulated within Spacedock Versus, take place outside of each IP’s respective Sci-fi universe, in a separate field of comparison to which neither vessel is indigenous. In this separate universe, all energy weapon and deflector shield yields are either raised or lowered into to a neutral range, to allow fair comparison, while maintaining their relative strength. For example, the Asgard Plasma Beams aboard Stargate’s Daedalus Class are so powerful, that if used against a vessel from the Star Wars or Star Trek properties, the target would have almost no chance of surviving the blast. For the purposes of comparison, the Daedalus’ weapons would be reduced in strength, and the opposing vessel’s shields increased in strength, the end result would be that while the Plasma Beams are still considered extremely powerful, and still potentially the most powerful weapons involved in the battle, they would now allow for the strengths and weaknesses of each vessel and each commander to determine the battle’s outcome." You people need to read. Seriously.

[@Maeve_Rose]

so it isnt a fair comparison at all. its all down to who they want to bullshit to win.

[@blahblahghost]

@@Maeve_Rose What a time machine, holy shit. I have absolutely zero recollection of writing this comment and yeah I agree that it's bullshit.

[@valenrn8657]

DS9 The Die is Cast episode shows Romulan D'deridex fire power against Earth type planet. Mass Effect's Sovereign would be defeated against Romulan D'deridex level fire power.

[@CruelestChris]

Yes, it shows the firepower is extremely low and their crews have no idea what a planet with a destroyed crust looks like.

[@Galvars]

Well design duel, make perfectly sense in terms of actual fight phase and finale. Great work.

[@SlavekTheEighth]

This is what the Internet is for. The Versus Series is a dream come true!

[@DrewDyrewood]

I rather liked this series. Just a request but can you do say an Imperial-II class star destroyer against a Galaxy or Sovereign class Federation ship? Or even against a Daedalus class battle cruiser.

[@lukas-sh1bm]

I would like to see the Battlestar Galactica vs the Home one Calamari Cruiser :D

[@xWKDNiiNJAx]

lukas9695 Home One

[@DocWolph]

Battelstar Pegasus instead. Galactica is an older less powerful ship.

[@lukas-sh1bm]

agreed

[@Dracomarine]

That isnt a fight, its an utter stomp for the Home One, and the Galactica is my favorite ship

[@VegetaLF7]

I think a closer fight would be the Galactica vs another unshielded ship such as something from Halo. Since we're also matching captain against captain as well as ship against ship, I'd suggest Captain Keyes in the Pillar of Autumn against Adama's Galactica

[@Gabriel-Kazu]

this was absolutely perfect. edge of my seat watching this and a very professional, tactical analysis and implementation.

[@LeafseasonMagbag]

Now the Romulens are going to try to salvage the Sovereign, and lose their minds doing it.

[@Gigas0101]

I really hope this series comes back

[@jackartorius]

I remember Sovereign can fire its main gun very fast, like every 2 or 3 seconds

[@generalrendar7290]

Now I really enjoyed this versus. It brought in tactical ability of its commanders and their disposition. Also a plausible reason for little intelligence and their actions in the opening acts of the engagement. Well done!

[@gamingextreme87]

Just randomly found this video and so glad for it, subscribed! Hope for more soon!

[@brg9327]

Haven't watched the video yet, however this seems like a major mismatch. Most calcs I've seen put a reapers main weapon at around 450kt per shot. By comparison a photon torpedo has a yield of roughly 60mt, and the scimitar was soaking them, phasers, quantum torpedos which are even more powerful. Not to mention the two other Romulan warships trying to destroy it. If Shinzon wasnt so desperate for Picards blood it would have annihilated all three ships without so much as a scratch. That monster was OP. Anyway looking forward to more videos like this.

[@brg9327]

Obviously it was much closer than it should have been, but eitherway a very cool video.

[@SiphonRayzar]

Look in the description, and read the rules.

[@DeathbyDusk]

Logically anything from Star Trek should be barred from these types of things, since the series makes little goddamn sense technology wise. Their FTL is so damn slow, and yet they have super weapons capable of destroying entire planets completely out of skew with how much they could conceivably generate in ships of the size they have. Like any battle would end with "And then they rerouted power to the main deflector disk and won." Because anything in the show is as powerful as the writers demand.

[@Deta335]

Maliciously Delicious so a space creature with a powerful weapon that kills stuff makes more sense? Alright then.

[@DavidWMiller]

Deta335 "space creature" is misleading. It's still a constructed ship.

[@WingsOfFreedom07]

The Executor class Super Star Destroyer vs a Borg Tactical Cube

[@WingsOfFreedom07]

Or the Eclipse class, but that would be unfair because of the superlaser.

[@9skyman945]

+Zsolt Farkas actually, with the characteristics of a Borg Cube, having an Eclipse go against it wouldn't actually be too bad.

[@Kanthannic]

lol lasers from the executor wont even shave off paint from the borg cube. And lets just assume that your lasers somehow slightly damaged the borg's shields, then the borg will adapt and become invulnerable to your little pew pew lasers.

[@Asghaad]

StarWars weaponry is NOT simple lasers ... the closest analogue in ST universe would be distruptors actually and the calculated energy yields put SW Turbolaser batteries higher than ST weaponry. Which is kinda problem when SSD has FOUR THOUSAND of them ... the deciding factor in that fight would be if Borg adaptations would be fast and strong enough to withstand that firepower or not

[@Kanthannic]

ummm would you care to explain what turbo*LASERS* actually are then? And the 'calculated' energy yield? mind if i ask whom calculation was it? If its the typical one shot=approximately 1000 nukes calculation, well it's wrong. The guy who calculated it clearly stated that he assumed the whole asteroid was made up of full 100% iron (or some other metal), which firstly, is obviously a biased assumption for the sole purpose of making up long numbers, and secondly, uncanon data. It is only common sense that when you compare two franchises you use canon data, not random figures pulled out of some random dude's ass.

[@Palmergedd0n]

Ooh much fun. After the wing was ripped off and they were facing each other, I was on the edge of my seat :D

[@DoktorApplejuceAbridged]

One element that isn't brought up in this analysis very thoroughly is the fact that Sovereign is an AI. Yeah, you mention it at the start, but it bears noting that it should influence the outcome of the fight. Sovereign's reaction and information processing speed far exceeds that of any organic captain. In the time the captain of an enemy ship would take to react to a new development, formulate a new course of action, order their crew, and allow their crew to carry out that order, Sovereign is able to do the equivalent several thousand times over. Realistically, one-on-one, a ship like Sovereign shouldn't lose against a single ship crewed by organics unless it's VASTLY outclassed technologically. And, while I admittedly don't know much about Star Trek, that doesn't seem to be the case here.

[@shadewolf0075]

Star Trek nations and races use particle weapons that tear you apart on a molecular level, commonly use torpedoes that are more powerful then the Tzar bomba which was a 50 megaton nuclear weapon. Quantum mechanics are taught in grade schools in the federation which has people who can fully restore dead stars as a hobby. They also commonly use energy to matter conversion technology. A fleet of 15 Star ships 5 of which would be classified as dreadnoughts in mass effect and the rest as cruisers from one of the weaker less advanced nations in trek destroyed 30% of a earth sized planet’s crust in seconds. Those were older romulan ships helping cardassian ships doing that. The scimitar should cut sovereign in half in it’s first shot

[@Bolt216]

when the Reaper hit that guy with MOLTEN TUNGSTEN traveling at a fraction of the speed of light, its gone

[@voodoominerman]

As you may remember from the Drill Sergeant from ME2, the main gun of an Everest class dreadnought has a yield of 38 kilotons. Reaper guns are more powerful than that, but not orders of magnitude more powerful. Star Trek ships can happily shrug off Gigaton explosions from nearby warp core breaches, photon torpedoes and the like. The Scimitar wouldn't enjoy it, but it'd survive for a while.

[@jonmcgee6987]

Here is something i'd like to see. Super Star Destroyer ( Star Wars) vs Portent of Darkness ( Star Blazers/Uchu Senkan Yamato Season 2)

[@sallovic5890]

Jon Mcgee is the latter an anime?

[@jonmcgee6987]

Look up Star Blazers Comet Empire here in KZbin. The Portent of Darkness shows up in the last 2 episodes. After it's outer covering has been wrecked.

[@sallovic5890]

i dont watch anime i was just wondering

[@CrazyYanmega]

I would love to see another episode of Spacedock Versus with capital ships in this format. The presentation was riveting, and held my interest even though I don't really know these two ships.

[@Diomedes01]

A versus series is a GREAT addition to the channel. Good work on this Spacedock.

[@KingreX32]

the thing with Star trek ships is that they are so highly manuverable. I think that also gives shinzon an edge. Reapers are kind of slow.

[@williamnixon3994]

Eeeh... are they though? They're able to land in atmo and use those tendrils like giant legs to walk across the surface, not to mention we hear from Joker that Sovereign pulled a maneuver that would have torn apart any other ship when escaping Virmire

[@KingreX32]

I say this only because if you notice in Star Trek most of those ship battles feature more dog fighting tactics as opposed to what you see capital ships in Star Wars or battlestar Galactica do. I still don't think Reapers are as manuverable as star trek ships though. Despite the Vimire manuver. I find that Stargate ships for the most are are the same as well. Especially the daedalus class.

[@KingreX32]

Obviously Bigger ships like the Galaxy and Nebula classes are naturally slower than say an Nova, Intrepid or Akira class vessel.

[@Zimtastic]

Star Trek capital ships do seem considerably more maneuverable than their Mass Effect counterparts - however Reapers are able to vary their mass, which means they can make turns or pivots that even ST ships are incapable of. ST ships still appear to be faster, but as in the simulation Reapers might be able to reduce mass and swing their main guns around much more quickly than an ST captain would expect. Federation types might need to pull a few Picard maneuvers to keep their maneuverability advantage intact.

[@maciej2c]

meaby compared to reaper size they looks to be sloow but they are very fast also reaper can shot his beam from legs 360 degree (unlike his main beam)

[@tennoshenaniganizer9234]

Damn it. I'm not that mad that the Scimitar won as I love both ships, but my favour was for Sovereign. Then again, I saw that one coming. Reapers are overconfident. Great vid nonetheless

[@imeize]

Keep it up. I really enjoyed how to didn't concern yourself overly much with which ship is more powerful, but instead focused on the tactics each side would use. Very creative, I enjoyed it!

[@Corristo89]

The cloaking systems on the Scimitar make those of the Normandy look like a toddler pretending to be invisible by covering his eyes, since he can't see anyone and therefor they can't see him.

[@Sone418]

Forerunner Fortress class battleship vs all Reapers

[@chaszczek]

I think fouruners would be destroyed by numbers of reapers if i remember my mass effect cannon there were around 800k reapers so in don't think even foruner ship could survive this

[@simpsonfan13]

Are you sure? The forerunners regularly dealt with 100K ships for their AUXILIARY fleets, and a similar number for the flood fleets.

[@chaszczek]

in your scenario you have one ship vs 800k ships im 100% centrain that in case a foruner flleet vs reapers it would have been one big turkey shootting but in case of one ship i think reapers would have started to youse kamikaze attacks at ftl speeds at overpower solo forrtres class shields we saw infinity penetrate them with here super macs so it is possible penetrate the shield with kinetick energy in optymistic variant for reapers your scenario i gave reapers over 70% casoulty figure for one foruner ship

[@TheMadSocrates]

Yeah you gotta take into consideration that there are a LOT of Sovereign-class dreadnoughts and that some of them, IE Harbinger, are even BIGGER. Also no crews, just hundreds of thousands of hyperintelligent AIs working in perfect synch.

[@laggedoff]

I love the series so far, but I am sorry to have to point out how absolutely dead soverign would be. The weapons of the Scimitar would have basically shredded Sovereign to pieces in the first volley, and sovereigns weapons wouldn't have been able to penetrate the scimitars shields, much less the shields on a galaxy class. If it were Star Wars, then those weapons would have pretty much bypassed the shields, because star wars shields (aside from planetary) seem to mostly be focused on deflecting energy not mass. But star trek shields deflect both, and mostly render kinetic assaults dead.

[@failandia]

you should really : -a: read the rules -b: play mass effet

[@laggedoff]

A. I haven't checked the rules, usually I overlook patreon links. B. I have played Mass Effect, which is how I know a lot of the universe is extremely weak compared to most other sci-fi universes, especially Star Trek. Another problem is Sovereign requires the Mass Effect universe to do....anything, I mean all of his weapons, his method of drive, KB's, etc all require the "Mass Effect", which if we really dive into this, Sovereigns armor is really only good against kinetic damage as any energy assault would likely shred the armor apart. And even then. it's not really any good kind of kinetic protection, a few cruisers and a dreadnought were able to take one of sovereigns bretheren out, the combined firepower of those ships don't even come close to the energy weapons in Star Trek. But I do have to contest the use of plasma weapons, in star trek the plasma weapons of romulan weapons are re-purposed energy conduit or warp plasma. Which means it wouldn't be able to eat away at sovereigns armor. And Kinetic barriers are mostly deflection pulses, like Cyclonic barriers which use whipping energy to deflect damage, most KB's are in the active the nanosecond the kinetic force is in range, which is also why most battles with capital ships of cruiser and above in ME are done over vast distances (with obvious exceptions to ME3 and anything with normandy). Problem here...now that I've read the rules, we're going for more of an "admiral" points system. if you level everything off...you just end up with the mind, so it would be more interesting to have the admirals as the goal entirely, and use different universe ships as the pieces those admirals control.

[@failandia]

it's a nice text you have there, really but as you read the rules, ships are bring into a neutral universe where overpowered things are nerfed. if the Scimitar was in the M:E universe it would have been one shot if Sovereign was in ST universe he would have been one shot. in this case, a neutral universe would lead to mutual destruction, what they did

[@The36th]

To be honest nothing can win with Star Trek ships and this nerdy franchise should be excluded from this kind of comparisons. Star Trek is very old franchise. It was designed to be TV show where they talk much and show very little due to budget and technical limitations of its time. They had to came up with pretty hardcore and nerdy lore to made everything sound exciting and powerful when someone from the cast described it. That Star Trek ship is freaking big, holds a lot of smaller fighters, posses a lot of guns and at the same time it is very maneuverable and can be perfectly cloaked. Nothing can compare with it. Especially not Mass Effect lore. This is more modern lore designed for games that were able to show more and didn't have to excuse itself with exciting description rather than actual action scenes with spacefrafts. ME's lore is much more reasonable and balanced. Reapers have powerful weaponry but they are very slow and bad at maneuvering.

[@laggedoff]

Mass Effect is able to be as "balanced" as it is (we're excluding the arm waving in ME3) because of the "Mass Effect" which is a whole lot of space magic to be honest. The reapers are also not the best tactitions, they're really only as good as they are, because they built the framework and guided the species in the galaxy to use their technology. They know the backdoors, the cheats etc. The reapers also only have overwhelming numbers and blind tanking as their main tactic other than indoctrination.

[@roviH]

I just discovered your versus series now and let me just say, this is so fucking cool.

[@Taal111]

This is a really interesting concept and I hope you continue it! That said, I think that you underestimate the effectiveness of the Scimitar's Disruptors in it's initial attack - ME Kinetic barriers have no effect on energy weapons whatsoever because they don't really exist at a ship scale (excepting the Reapers themselves). The disruptors would have struck the Reapers lightly armoured belly and disintegrated large portions of the hull - this may have also had the secondary effect of knocking down both PD and Kinetic Barrier generators there prior to the torpedo's striking the target - further exacerbating that damage. Also - doesn't the Scimitar have tractor beams (not explicitly stated but it seems like ST standard equipment) which could have grabbed onto the Reaper and kept it from turning to face it and thereby bring almost any of it's effective weapons to bear?

[@000NULL]

Nope! Sovereign would just cleave the station into parts to restrict the Scimitars movement, and plow straight through to the warbird. Using Reaper Drones, or the particle lance, the Scimitar is dead very quickly. Shinzon inflicts minimal damage against the Reaper, total time from weapons range to finish, less than 20 seconds if the warbirds isn't cloaked. Still under a minute if it cloaks. A mass effect field lance is a one hit kill against a StarTrek ship, would be a much more powerful borg kinetic cutting beam and would ignore both primary and secondary shielding. The Scimitar is built with its thalaron generator linked up to the wings, even small physical damage to the wings and the EPS conduits would overload. Sovereign is a multi mind ai guided self repairing doomsday device. Even a large scale interplanetary kinetic penetrator wasn't enough to completely kill a sovereign class, but the damage it did to a planet behind the reaper was massive. Plus, indoctrination > borg nanoprobes, (wireless!)

[@teroslarone1171]

Russell Bousfield indoctrination takes time also did you see how fast sovereign died once it's barrier was down it took a frigate to crack it up also the scimatar took weapon hits that could wipe out citys (quantumtorpeados)

[@mmyatt9560]

the soverigns cannon is rated at around 242KT a shot witch puts it at around NX enterprise in yeild so no it wont kill the scrimatar

[@kieranmalenoir8705]

good video, but i think Sovereign would have won this fight because when Sovereign scanned the Scimitar it would have worked out the best way to destroy it witch would have been to fire its main gun at the Scimitar's singularity core (the Romulan warp core) witch would if not out right destroy the Scimitar would have left it totally without power and helpless. the Reapers do not care what You are or what tech You have if You are fighting them they want You dead

[@MrStabby19812]

kieran malenoir Reapers weapons come in at about 500MT and lasers can't penetrate the navigational shields on a galaxy class. Plus you can transport photon or any type of torpedo directly into the reapers core.

[@MrStabby19812]

RedShirt047 sorry been a while since I played ME yeah at those yields most ships could handle that without shields.

[@kieranmalenoir8705]

but in this fight transporters are not used, it says so at that start of the video and the main gun of a reaper capital ship is able to punch though the shields of any ship because the gun is a rail gun firing a liquid tungsten alloy round held in place with a mass effect field so when fired the liquid round turns into a jet of molten tungsten alloy about as think as You little finger moving at about 1/4 the speed of light, so after the 1st shot the shields would be gone and the secondary lasers would be able to cut the Scimitar's hull to ribbons in a matter of seconds

[@ferrisbreiss1649]

I do agree there is a technological mismatch, however it is stated in the video that transport tech is forbidden (3:09).

[@MorpheousXO]

Kieran Malenoir, you do realize that a tiny bit of metal going at 1/4 the speed of light really isn't that big a deal to deflector shields that are designed to deflect stuff in the ships path when it's going at warp speeds, which are faster than the speed of light, right?

[@charga600]

Never really known too much about Star Trek nor Mass Effect (I'm a Star Wars fanboy) but that was really cool. I'm assuming there probably going to be a lot of discussion about the outcome in the comments from people who know the series better than I, but if there is ever a Star Wars vessel in one of there, I'd probably end up chiming in. Great work and I'm definitely looking forward to (hopefully) seeing more of the Versus series.

[@JustTooDamnHonest]

Sd this might actually be the best part of your whole channel in my opinion and after seeing this battle myself. The Scimitar vs Sovereign Result: Star Trek Victory vassals were very badly damaged it was all or nothing and the Scimitar went all in, firing everything it had left and it worked and Sovereign was defeated. But the Scimitar barely hanged on and it was thanks to his cloaking and the tactical patience of Shinzon.

[@Asghaad]

Sorry, Star Trek shields are basically immune to simple lasers and kinetic based weaponry is simply pushed aside by deflector field ... simply put the only weapon in ME arsenal that could at least damage ANY ST ship would be the torpedoes that function on phasing principle which by the ME database simply BYPASS mass effect field Barriers ... the same principle utilized in Phasors and Distruptors. There is also the matter of Star Trek weaponry energy yield which is simply uncomparable - the one second of type X Phasor puts out comparable energy to whole Alliance Dreadnought fleet firing theyr main guns - which was capable of damaging even Sovereign class Reapers. Simply put the Sovereign cannot damage Scimitar with anything at its disposal while each Distruptor Scimitar fields will just cut through the kinetic Barrier as if its not even there. And we arent even talking about Warp capabilities of the Romulan ship which is capable of short combat subspace jumps (used by Picard in the series ...) while reaper can barely reach speeds above speed of light... Then there is also difference in sensors - Direct emission scanning and passive heat sensing against sensor technology capable of scanning energy and matter from lightyears away ... Good match for ME universe would be StarGate universe but anything from Star Wars or Star Trek will just VAPORIZE anything from MassEffect or StarGate

[@mrfister1234]

Asghaad pretty much. while star wars doesnt have many hard numbers because its primary media are the movies and not shows (they would be more concerned on moving the plot along rather than hard numbers) we have to judge star wars using feats from the movies, shows, comics and books. not hard numbers. a singular star destroyer can perform "base delta zero" (not just the eradication of all lofe but the glassing of a planet) in a day and vaporize entire solid asteroids in one blast. the hard numbers we do have come from the comics and books which put an isds broadside output at hundreds of PETAtons lol this would put the star destroyers turbolaser weapons systems (which are plasma based since they can be affected by gravity and such; george lucas is senile for calling something with mass and travel time comparable to kinetic weaps "lasers") on par (or more powerful) with borg plasma weapons. pretty fucking dangerous

[@wickiei4556]

You made a mistake, sovereign is capable of FTL, the reapers invented it. They have the most advanced FTL in Mass Effect

[@MrStabby19812]

Asghaad exactly the mass effect codex says the reapers main gun is a measly 500 mega tons. Even if a group of reapers found a mostly disabled st universe ship and destroyed it the warp core detonating would wipe them out.

[@mrfister1234]

Wickie LP but this is a 1v1 battle not a race. if it was civilization vs civilization then ftl speed would factor and yes me ftl travel is faster than trek warp. but this is a 1v1 battle to the death. ftl would not be a factor

[@djprojectus]

Wickie LP Reapers 35 LY a day but impossible in the debris field.

[@kevo_chen]

The Sovereign Class Reaper has no chance in this match up. In fact, I would place my bets on a Runabout if it went up against a Sovereign. The Sovereign simply does not have enough firepower with its main 450 Kiloton Cannon. An average Star Trek ship can dish out planet busting rounds, as seen in the the DS9 Episode, "The Die is Cast." A fleet of ships fires 17 blasts onto a planet's surface and vaporizes 30% of its crust. A single shot would have killed every life form to exist on Earth. The original TOS Enterprise also took a shot that was 12^18 decibels, 10^26,623,333,280,885,243,204 times more energy than exists in the entire observable universe. The Enterprise is outright invincible when fighting ships outside the Star Trek Universe.

[@manoflead643]

not totally, there's more OP shit in existence (notably, you can technically consider asura's wrath's stupid golden thing you fight in the DLC a ship), but it is a fair point that some universes are on different orders of magnitude to others.

[@homelessend8557]

Kevin Chen Although that is a bit hyperbole, it is true that even a single federation starship can wipe out an entire planet in mere minutes, according to TOS

[@simpsonfan13]

TOS numbers are all over the place and are contradicted many times by evidence from TNG onward. So no, the Enterprise is FAR from invisible outside Trek. And lol at a runabout taking down sovereign.

[@homelessend8557]

simpsonfan13 but it still is canon. and who says tng hasnt contradicted itself either?

[@kevo_chen]

While contradictory, it is still quite canon.

[@juzoli]

Sovereign is millions of years old, and designed to annihilate whole civilizations which are up to 50.000 years old, with zero casualties. Scimitar’s technology is less then 2000 years after the first spaceflight. So their technology is not even close. And Scimitar is less than half the size of an average Reaper. So it would be a very short fight, probably a one shot victory, seconds after they engage in a combat.

[@frag2k12]

Indded it would be the Scimitar would one shot Sovereign.

[@bigtony4930]

Sorry, gotta disagree with the outcome. Sovereign shoots Scimitar from a safe distance rather than make the tactical mistake of coming close. Even with the video's outcome, Reapertech goes on to indoctrinate the Remans. As a particular comment says below, Sovereign wins by both tactics and Technicality.

[@alexwilkin]

Although I personally belive the scimitar would not have had this much trouble, its very interesting to watch. On a side note: look at all the butt-hurt mass effect fans, they can't stand they lost

[@SecondSince]

You are every bit as bad as the DeathBattle fans. Going on and on about 'butthurt' this and that. Going through the comments there are very few of those comments indeed.

[@failandia]

i'm a full M-E fan (and you should be too, i mean, whatever it's sci-fi you can be fan of all series) but this is not a shining victory for star trek, both ships are gone

[@-JustHuman-]

Maybe it's because there where not 3 endings to choose from ;P

[@Reaper_03-01]

I agree that this result was the most likely outcome, and I am a ME fan. However, had this been Harbinger vs the Scimitar, I do think it might be a different result.

[@9skyman945]

You guys do forget that this is a more balanced fight. The true capabilities of both are quite different.

[@smexehcougah3]

Woah, this was awesome! Bring this back, please!

[@johnsteiner3417]

One other thing to point out- other than the ridiculously 2D battlespace, is that Sovereign's point defense weapons are found on all eleven appendages, not just five. I've played through that final sequence in the first game way too many times to not notice that.

[@commandershepard1457]

Actually The mass accerelators can fire pretty rapidly so I think that when the Sovereing scored the first hit, in a matter of 10 seconds he would score the second one - Shinzon would be dead

[@Sp33ddialz]

Sovereign doesn't have 'beam weapons' per se. From the mass effect codex: "Sovereign's main gun was not a directed energy weapon. Rather, its massive element zero core powered an electromagnetic field suspending a liquid iron-uranium-tungsten alloy that shaped into armor-piercing projectiles when fired. The jet of molten metal, accelerated to a fraction of the speed of light, destroys targets by impact force and irresistible heat."

[@reedallen4613]

GREAT video as always dude. The ONLY inconsistency I'd like to point out is that since ALL Mass Effect Universe shields/barriers (INCLUDING the Reapers) are SPECIFICALLY designed to protect against SOLID PROJECTILE weapons (such as even Romulan Plasme Torpedoes, and REGARDLESS of what 'Type' they were the Romulan Plasma Torpedoes were STILL 'Solid-Projectile Weapons), wouldn't it be OBVIOUS that the Disrupters (a NON-Projectile weapon) be MUCH more effective in penetrating the Reaper's Kinetic Barriers/Shields? After all, Disruptors and Phasers are PURELY Energy-based, and DON'T have a solid-based component that could potentially be rendered useless by 'KINETIC' Barriers, which are designed SPECIFICALLY to protect against SOLID-Projectile weapons, and NOT Energy-based weapons that have absolutely NO 'Solid-Projectile' component. Just wanted to point that out. But regardless, great video as always dude. Oh, and this actually brings up a VERY good question: just EXACTLY what did Shinzon do during the Dominion War that resulted in him being HIGHLY DECORATED? And also: did Shinzon have the 'Scimitar' during the Dominion War, or did he have a 'Normal' Romulan warship?

[@thelastprime3351]

There's a huge mistake being overlooked here: Sovereign-class Reapers don't have exploitable openings that become exposed when firing its main batteries, only Reaper destroyers do that. Dreadnoughts fire from their various "tentacles" (aside from Harbinger, which has rapid-fire main weapon emplacemets all throughout its body). At that short range, all weapons fire would impact its main armour plating, probably severing a few of its "arms", but not with enough force to destroy the ship, giving the dreadnoght sufficient time to obliterate the Scimitar. Sovereign should have won here, at least basing my argument on the scenario you propose. That said, I love the format of this series. Truly the best ship vs ship comparisons on the Internet.

[@thelastprime3351]

There's also the problem that Star Trek weapons are waaay more powerful than those in Mass Effect. Maybe the Scimitar's first attack should have been enough to guarantee its victory.

[@thanos3784]

I woke up, started the video, and half fell back asleep.... COOLEST DREAM EVER!

[@7aro7Dragoon]

Wonderful, insightful analysis and brilliant execution. had me on the edge of my seat a couple of times and I couldn't tell who had the advantage. more please.

[@dashiellgillingham4579]

Wow... I need more of this in my life. These kind of shows usually devolve into a popularity contest by the end but you kept out of that trap.

[@ArturroCreaturro]

I love this idea. Frequently go back to see this one again & again

[@christophergroenewald5847]

When first encountering the Scimitar why didn't sovereign just fly right through the space station. He would take minimal damage and it would be unexpected, giving sovereign the upper hand by catching them off gard with his main gun. Also when the Scimitar went in visible why didn't sovereign use the debris field. Him and his drones firing at the surrounding debris would cause the debris field to start moving around and any ship inside would be in a lot of danger. When it comes to kinetic damage, sovereign is almost indestructible so the debris would bounce off him dealing almost no damage. As for the Scimitar, it would not be able to handle so much damage. First the cloak would go and the swirling debris would probably rip the ship to shreds if sovereign doesn't go for a second and final shot first. In this type of scenario, short of fleeing, there is no way that the Scimitar would survive

[@frag2k12]

This wouldn't even be a fight, Sovereign couldn't damage the Scimitar even cloaked, the deflectors alone keep material from ripping the ship to shreds at thousand plus times the speed of light, the weapons of ME fire at 2% light speed max and firing in the kiloton range, Star Trek is gigaton. I like ME as much as anyone but this wouldn't have been a contest at all.

[@christophergroenewald5847]

@@frag2k12 this is why I went for the more tactical approach of using the debris field again the Scimitar

[@spencerthompson1049]

Just found your KZbin channel this is amazing! Subscribed immediately!!!!!

[@bohba13]

Sovereign's Ego was his downfall. he did not respect his enemy while his enemy respected him, thusly he crippled himself early

[@CruelestChris]

>Shinzon, man who came up with the tactic of flying his invisible ship so close that his enemies could hit it by shooting blind >"Tactical expertise" Um, ok. Also wouldn't Sovereign at least attempt to shoot at Scimitar through the debris field with it's mass driver? I'd think a gun that one-shots a dreadnought could overpenetrate a derelict space station.

[@sirtoyjettheflyingbeluga7788]

This must be the absolute greatest thing on KZbin!