How Star Citizen Aims To Beat "Griefing" & Allow for Piracy

[@SpaceTomato]

THIS VIDEO WAS ORIGINALLY RELEASED IN MAY 2024 AND MAY BE SLIGHTLY OUT OF DATE. To be clear, PvP and related gameplay does not equate to griefing. But Star Citizen DOES seem to be using the same tools to inform players of where they should expect PvP and more danger to avoid players inaccurately labeling gameplay as griefing, while also adding some gameplay incentives and professions in the process. They need to communicate to players how to avoid this more intense gameplay, and give them the tools to do so effectively. Otherwise, let's see how this comments section goes...

[@Shaderox]

While PVP does not equate to griefing, it's usually what it becomes, ESPECIALLY when it comes to games with open worlds instead of contained specialized pvp areas. And that's what has me worried about star citizen because in my decades of gaming I've never seen open world pvp done well.

[@OldmanJohnnyMorgan]

sad...I was surprised more people haven't talked about Todd leaving the project. Personally, I wasn't surprised as I felt he looked massively burnt out a couple years ago and I hope he is taking care of himself.

[@NoleBuddy-ep3zl]

player initiated bounties would definitely help with griefing. imagine multiple contracts constantly open on griefers. some would never be able to use that account without getting instantly hunted

[@Brendan2097]

Give us a full offline mode, where we can explore and roam and play as we wish against the AI. And give us private servers where we can have games where other players either agree not to fight each other, or are invulnerable to players. That's all we need.

[@clovernacknime6984]

@@NoleBuddy-ep3zl "Wait, you're saying I can pay to have my target griefed while I take a nap? *mustache twirling intensifies*"

[@artsolano6762]

I used to help people I didn’t know in the PU. After being shot in the back after the assistance was rendered a few times, I learned only to help people that I know. There is a big difference between a pirate and a griefer. A pirate seeks to gain payment or goods forcefully. While a griefer wants to disrupt your game play. They seek entertainment at causing their targets misery.

[@bones3915]

Exactly

[@nuanil]

And at the moment there's virtually zero interactions that would qualify as Piracy at the moment.

[@rooster1012]

@@nuanil Not true physicalized cargo is in game now along with stripping ships down for components and scrap.

[@nuanil]

@@rooster1012 do you not know/understand the word virtually? It means sure, there's a few, but they happen so rarely they aren't even worth mentioning. It certainly isn't happening with solo PVP because by the time you return with a vulture, the carcasses despawned, and if you're running a crew, you'd be making far more money just running ERT's and actually getting the chance for high end narcotics and access to 4 large to extra large sized ships.

[@Nommicus]

This is it, some are playing a game, some wanna see world burn

[@justinjacobs1501]

Fun fact, the most famous historical pirate spent his entire career killing fewer people than you can count on one hand. Piracy is the forceful exchange of goods using as little actual force as possible.

[@CWJester]

I personally enjoy piracy, and I may be different than most; currently my biggest blocker is the ability to hail/dm so I have to rely on VOIP and worst case, global chat. At the end of the day, it would be nice if I don't need to kill the other party, and will take 33-45% of their cargos value, especially if they're running the new and buggy hauling missions. I'd hate for them to lose ludicrous amounts of rep because I took some nearly useless cargo at times. If they hand over aUEC without a fight, I'm happy and he's happy...ish. I want to set a good example as to what piracy is but if the individual escalates, I'll shut the ship off and escalate my demands. If it gets worse, that's when we board and ultimately take command of the ship to either move all of the cargo or commandeer the ship and move it in its entirety when it comes back online. When larger ships come into play, I told my org and other friends if they want to join me, they're welcome but we're doing a zero to... hero(?) kind of approach to piracy where we may also be stealing ships, hopefully with the ability to make people walk the plank so they still live, can get picked up by buddies but we take the ship. I'd love to steal a Kraken for piracy use 😅 On rare occasions, if there is absolutely nothing going on and I don't want to pirate but want a fight, I'll attack players and await bounty hunters to run the gauntlet so to speak. I used to be a vehement lawful player until ironically a hauler kept pad ramming me, as well as my targets I was hunting the bounties of combat logging. As a pirate, or a hooligan, I want bounty hunters to have a fair shot and if they kill me, I'm happy for them because like me, I'm sure they're drained chasing people endlessly who will just take advantage of armistice or combat logging.

[@happymanadventures]

@@CWJester you can hail people

[@aesericho3651]

​​@@CWJesterpiracy can add some excitement to a predictive gameplay. The only drawback, excluding the obvious, is there are no guarantees or retribution to a pirate in the event they go against their word. If I pay a pirate 10%-30% of my haul, what is keeping them from taking the credits, turning around and destroying my ship and taking what cargo remains? We really need reputations. At least I'd be able to tell if a pirate will backstab me after I hand over the credits.

[@JohnVanderbeck]

One issue with the "sliding scale of danger they desire" is that, at least in my mind, there is a huge difference between AI Risk and Player Risk. I'm all for putting myself in a position where I am at risk of attack and danger from the AI, but I'd rather not be in the same position with danger of players. AI just provides danger, but isn't a d1ck. Players are however.

[@sebbenforte]

I really wish they'd just given this type of person a PVE server instead of trying to balance the entire experience around them. Players aren't dicks-- they are PLAYING. This is a GAME. A dead game now, mind you, but nevertheless.

[@CBadger]

Allowing high level bounty hunters to go into armastice with weapons just opens up the possibility for a griefer to put in the effort to be high ranking, and then grief people in stores knowing no one can touch them. Maybe they'll get killed eventually, but at what reputation loss to dissuade them from doing it again? The big issue is not findings solutions, but the players themselves. Prime example of this. Griefers in racing games like Gran Turismo, Forza Motorsport and Assetto Corsa Competizione rank up their safety ratings to get into 'S tier' lobbies (the safest, cleanest lobbies). Only for them to grief in those lobbies, get bumped down a few levels, to then they repeat the process over and over. Never underestimate the commitment a griefer has to griefing other players. There is no solution to griefing because they will always find a way to ruin someone else's day.

[@Aztaable]

There is an easy solution to that.. Reputaion loss should be bigger, grinding up reputation already takes weeks. You think griefers would spend weeks grinding, just to waste their rep in a short time? I agree that there is no way to 100% eliminate griefing in any PvX game. But reputation system could certainly lock them out of some areas. On the otherhand, it's not like the community is full of griefers. It is an issue, but not a massive issue. I have been playing since 2015 or so, and i have never met a single griefer personally, not even a pad rammer.

[@mightyfineincredible2252]

There is a solution if you own a gun and have balls. They brought it on themselves

[@HunterGalvius]

Ok? They put in the effort and get the reward for doing so.

[@citizen_brimstone3113]

I hope they implement it as you described. I like the idea of high ranking bounty hunters being allowed to carry and draw firearms in "armistice zones."

[@fg1110]

@@citizen_brimstone3113 that would be awesome

[@justinn5357]

Cool video, the core problem that Star Citizen faces in my opinion is the fact the game is not designed with gameplay in mind. Players will do whatever they can to others when possible, without incentives to not kill each other it simply doesn’t make sense. The entire fundamentals of the game would need to change for them to fix this.

[@TheNucaKola]

If I was out smarted, out maneuvered, or outgunned, it’s piracy and fair game out in the verse. Doesn’t mean I’m happy about losing my loot and my ship blown up, but thems the risk and part of the fun. If someone is repeatedly targeting a player, ramming into them, stalking the perimeter of a safe zone to pick off new players, you’re griefing and some bigger fish needs to come along and put you in your place.

[@AthosRac]

A liar do not outsmart anyone!

[@XxTavoRxX]

Ah, you sound like someone who does the "pirating" trying to justify it as "fun". 🤔🤨 The minute someone says "it's part of the fun" it's obvious they engage in it.

[@TheNucaKola]

@@XxTavoRxX no I haven’t played SC in over a year

[@AceTheFlameSiN]

@@XxTavoRxX No, it's not. Crazy, I know, but some people enjoy the dynamics of a changing and potentially dangerous world. There's an age old concept of Blue vs Red PvPers. Blue PvPers often are chill and stick within the lines. However, they enjoy PvP and stomping Reds when they pop out to harass others. Not everyone wants a cozy bland A to B environment or is Pirate because they like the dynamics of player encounters that current AI tech isn't capable of reproducing.

[@HunterSteel29]

@@XxTavoRxX To be perfectly honest, piracy is indeed a legitimate gameplay loop. And honestly there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a pirate either. But that means that A: You target cargo ships with valuable cargo. A single pirate would need to use a battle transport to take on transports that he can out-gun and have enough cargo space to justify the cargo his taking. But this means that the pirate will still have less cargo than what his trying to take. For example a Corsair attacking a Caterpillar or Hull C. They have enough firepower to disable the ship, but not enough cargo space to take all the loot, so they just fill their hold and then leave. The surviving crew members aboard the Cat or Hull C can now try to repair their disabled ships or will have to send out a distress beacon to call for a tow. It doesn't make sense for a Corsair to try to pirate something like a C1 because a C1 doesn't have enough cargo to justify it, unless you received info that the C1 is carrying very valuable cargo that makes a massive profit with a small amount, which will then justify it. What doesn't make sense is a player in a bomber stopping your cargo ship and blowing you up for no reason. I can imagine a pirate in a bomber halting you for a toll fee or to hand over your entire ship, or halting you and demanding cargo in the event they have an allied pirate transport lurking nearby to take the loot from your ship. See now that's piracy. And just before you snap back at me: I do not engage in piracy nor do I enjoy taking forcibly from others. I prefer to play the game in a more neutral sense, and enjoy legitimate cargo runs. My thrill seeking gameplay is waiting for the Perseus to come so I can loan my services as an escort for high value cargo convoys.

[@rikilamaru]

prison time should be way more punishing and way harder to escape

[@thorns]

The problem right now is that people keep an alt account in prisons, and they transfer their merrits to their main account. So, griefers literally just immediately get out. They need to kick people out of prison when their time is served. It's an easy fix that they've never done and haven't talked about.

[@Hex_One]

So what's gonna happen when you do your daily bunker mission and unwillingly kill a friendly NPC, get a CS3, get sent to Klescher after surrending or being hunted by BH and be forced to stay there for countless hours/days or break your keyboard trying to escape since you want it to be harder ? Will you think it's a good idea ? People always tend to think from their own prospective. I'm a pirate, I've killed hundreds and hundreds of players, I've never griefed somebody and still think as a peacefull player in terms of gameplay mechanics. That's how things should be proposed.

[@Jansoft11]

@@Hex_One but in current situation CS doesnt mean anything, those players will be free again in minutes so whats the point ??? Jail should be inescapable, or hard as hell.. as it is in real life.. then you have to really think do you want to be unlawful player.. and if you decide so, you are ready for the consequences, its the same thing in real life..

[@Hex_One]

@@Jansoft11 as i said, what happen if you accidentally kill a NPC and get sent to Klescher. Will you be happy to be there forever ? Will but a new start pack to restart ? And SC being a PvP/pve experience, all gameplay loop must be explored. Otherwise, why there would be illegal missions available ? Do you want a boring PVE game doing the same missions over and over in the same bunkers layout ? If there was no PvP the game would be dead exactly as elite dangerous is.

[@Jansoft11]

@@Hex_One how many times you kill accidentally ?? first time could be little bit shorter time but those times should increase after every time when you do homicide.. offcourse now the bugs / desync is a problem but efter everything works it should be like that.. i have played years and i can say that my accindentall kills is like 2 or 3 times due the desync in bunker missions..

[@gaatjegeenrukaangek6]

I think another way to make pirating easier without it being considered greifing is Voice Chat. I know from my experience in Sea of Thieves that being able to communicate easier with people adds an entire new dimension and opportunity to your gameplay. my proposal: Make more voice channels, for example: -proximity chat. -squad chat -platoon lead (and squad leaders) channel -speakers inside a ship (usefull to adress the entire crew inside the ship. -speakers outside the ship (usefull to communicate to ships nearby without waiting for them to accapt hailing) -(optional) forcefull hailing. a feature that will also generate a certain amount of crime stat but will allow you to force the "victim" to let you explain the game rules if he/she wants to get out alive. I think implementing this will make piracy more fun AND more fluent because you can discuss terms easier without having to shoot on sight. and also this will make bounty hunting easier, because you can inform the bounty of your terms without having to shoot at him/her if you want to take him/her alive.

[@r.wallaby6490]

Love the idea of Speakers inside the ship cause I want my captain to be able to give us briefs or inspiration speeches (probably ripped from movies) but maybe instead of forceful hailing, you could have a "Hail Target" button and then it would be up to the other ship to respond, if they try to get away, you then engage.

[@gaatjegeenrukaangek6]

@@r.wallaby6490 agree

[@CodeBlue18]

There's no way to prevent griefing, no time out or rep loss will stop someone who enjoys triggering other players, especially since you can buy your way out of griding for anything.

[@SpaceTomato]

I feel like that disregards a lot of what this video is about, which isn't just griefing. You can't pay off reputation hits, you can't Even use money to survive losing your character due to death of a space man. But I respect the opinion.

[@CodeBlue18]

@@SpaceTomato The way I see it, losing reputation or even losing their character doesn't matter to those who entertain themselves by harassing other players and don't care about having a meaningful contribution to the game world. Since there are no levels, no hard to obtain weapons or ships that would be needed to defeat other players, there's nothing stopping a new character with a stack of cash bought ships from misbehaving to their heart's content. But, I'm talking only about griefing (which I thought the video title was about), the systems they want to add will certainly help keep in check other forms of hostile behavior that can be roleplayed (piracy, murder, stealing).

[@VindensSaga]

@@CodeBlue18 People who intentionally lose their characters sets themselves back.

[@MontySaurusRex_]

​@@VindensSaga they'll just make a new character and continue doing what they're doing. They find enjoyment in the harassment

[@Traumglanz]

@@SpaceTomato But is reputation even relevant to a griefer account? You don't need to grind, you can't lose your LTI ships, you might be able to grind for credits just fine with your wallet or a secondary account. Soooo.... what's stopping me from having my kind of fun with shooting pew pews at people just for the lolz?

[@marneus]

Persistent reputation is a must. People will think twice about harassment when they have an army of bounty hunters following them everywhere.

[@EternalHeretic]

Had an instant of 3 people killing anyone trying to leave a station... got missle lock soon as hangers opened

[@justinsaunders6479]

I've been pirated. It was awesome. I've also ran a griefer blockade and Teasa. Not awesome. Why? I was killed 30 seconds after "safely" landing (so epic) with a Cat. However, they blind fired through the closed doors while I was already at elevators and called it "Pirating" after. Lost all my items and ship in closed doors of a safe zone.

[@fnunez]

The biggest problem with griefing in star citizen, is that every time trolls come up with some new way to entertain themselves at everyone's expense, CIG pulls a surprised Pikachu face while the rest of us just facepalm.

[@malismo]

Full PvP also means players can police other players who are misbehaving. For those breaking ToS, like griefers, it is like was stated, report and hope CIG will be different than some other game companies and enforce ToS properly. If they do they will ban those who they deem broke it, regardless of backer status.

[@SpaceTomato]

Hopefully it works!

[@FunkThompson]

And do you think there are more players who want to be good guys, or more that want to be bad guys? Also consider, the bad guys - the griefers - don't need nearly as much investment. They can go, grief, and just log off. It's an interesting and difficult conundrum. We'll see how CIG's plays shake out.

[@jakeramp1]

But they've already been shown to abuse their tos system to hide the truth in forums.

[@walawala-fo7ds]

a subjective standard of behavior or enforcement won't help this game. if this is all they do, it has already failed

[@nuanil]

Which almost NEVER happens, and will almost never happen. If you think it will, I don't know what to say other than you probably lack a comprehensive understanding of people and their abhorrence for boredom, and how ineffective law enforcement is in the real world where people re actively paid to enforce it.

[@austinm5630]

I am reminded of the clip of the guy who kept respawning in his Carrack and getting instakilled. The guy getting instakilled had no other options, since his spawn was set to the Carrack and even now with incap, there would be a limit to how long he could sit there before he bleeds out and respawns. Obviously, the pirates can't be expected to allow this dude to walk around punching them to death. So we have a situation where griefing behavior is FORCED onto players who may be actual griefers, or may be perfectly legitimate pirates. It's impossible to say for sure since the game mechanics force them down a griefer path. Any potential solution to this problem will not work. Security can't just blow up the ship, because it's the victim's ship, and that defeats the whole purpose. Having AI that will board the ship and eliminate only the pirates is questionable at best, even if the AI is vastly improved. A player bounty hunter might be able to solve this, but they'd be going up against multiple pirates that are dug into the ship, who all have a defender's advantage, and can see the bounty hunters coming. Provided the bounty hunters VASTLY outnumber the pirates (at least 2-to-1, maybe more) there's at best a 50/50 chance they can prevail. This situation does not change based upon what system it's occurring in - whether it's Terra or Stanton, ANY system with a comm array will mark these pirates as criminals and accrue bounties. In somewhere like Pyro, the situation is even worse because no matter how many times they kill the ship's owner, they lose nothing. No reputation hit, no bounty gained, nothing. Of course, you can argue the ship owner shouldn't have been flying through Pyro, and I'd agree, but the problem persists in Terra and Stanton, along with 2/3 to 3/4 of the rest of the verse, where there is no realistic solution. I want to be wrong. I want to think the game will be playable for both pirates and PvE-focused industrial players as well. But the systems shown, no matter how good they are, don't address THIS case, and this WILL happen on Live. Either legitimate Pirates will get their accounts banned for griefing that they had no choice in, or anyone flying a Carrack with their respawn point set in the ship (and not JUST a Carrack) will get repeatedly instakilled and forced into DoaSM in a matter of minutes. Neither is an acceptable outcome.

[@tje.o.a5477]

Uhm... no? Legitimate pirates would sooner lock the ship owner in the medic wing, and with no way to escape without a weapon, they are still stuck in there. And with death of a space man, It would be better for both parties for the owner to be detained. Griefers on the other hand... Best solution I can come up with is letting bounty hunters chase after griefers, and if a griefer tries something stupid, self defense should be legal. Or removing weapons from people inside armistice zones, like how a security check at an airport would work. Only weak, hardly effective weapons would be at play, giving security forces and players time to react! IF a griefer tries to grief as a bounty hunter, remove the accounts ability to use their license. If they make another account? well, they are out for like... a month before they can do it again. Do it enough times? Account suspension. Make another account? well... ip ban? But bans should be appeal-able, so that innocent players don't loose all their stuff to false reports

[@r.wallaby6490]

Those guys sound like griefers, Pirates would have held the doors to the medical bay and kept the guy in there whilst they stole his cargo or whatever they were doing.

[@possum4403]

Physicalized cargo was a very bad idea. The next bad idea was the multi-crew damage control on bigger ships. The average player, the massive bulk of the people that would try SC, will hate these aspects of SC. Only dedicated, hardcore players will stick with this and they are not high enough in numbers to sustain SC money wise. No one wants to spend the time it will take to setup go boxes over and over. Nor will the masses want to take the time it will take to setup and prepare ships for missions. The poor quality of and low performance of virtual servers, constant deaths due to bugs, "grief play, murder hobos" will nullify any gains the devs think they have created by implementing these systems. The game has been dumbed down considerably due to the marketing of consoles and many design decisions are based on console usage. Add in the above mentioned gameplay systems like physicalized items/cargo and "maintenance" gameplay and we see the devs are way out of touch with the potential player base. Given that one of the more recent Inside star citizen had a dev plainly show they were out of touch, or just flat clueless when it came to on foot combat for example, and we see just how bad the devs are in creating game systems as they do not flat play the game.

[@Rehd66]

The amount of money they've already made suggests otherwise.

[@r.wallaby6490]

Physical cargo was a cool idea and one I'd been waiting on for a while. Engineering is even cooler, you don't need to setup or prepare the ship because it comes fully working, only maintenance will be from stress or combat damage. The servers are being worked on and server meshing is said to help with the performance. Death to bugs is annoying but is a lot less common than it used to be. Can I ask where you heard about marketing to consoles cause I haven't heard ANYTHING about it Maybe it isn't what you want but there are a lot of people looking forward to engineering and a lot of the features announced.

[@Rehd66]

@@possum4403 I’m glad we all have you to keep our excitement in check

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

Great overview of a complex topic!!

[@SpaceTomato]

Thanks!

[@timber7736]

"complex topic" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@VFW-Mayer]

I think that Master Modes needs 3 Modes. Combat = Full Shields, No Quantum. Combat Jump = Half Shields, Half Quantum able to Charge Up for a Short Jump. Travel = No Shields, All Quantum.

[@elementsk8r1717]

I think in order to catch griefers CIG should focus on a player reporting system

[@BestShifty]

The law system will be an ongoing development for a long time. They´ll need to iron out the flaws and it´ll probably be an unintended cause for pain at some stage or another. However it could be something unique and a big selling point of the game as long as we give them the time and feedback to refine it.

[@SpaceTomato]

It's going to take A LOOOOOT of testing lol

[@walawala-fo7ds]

what's another decade or two. who's counting

[@XxTavoRxX]

​@@walawala-fo7dshaha, I'm starting to look at this game as generational, need to set up a way to gift it to my grandkids 😜

[@TheMNWolf]

A surprisingly timely video. We were just discussing this the other day.

[@pxkqd]

With the current storage system, they can not give you weapons when you're inside the city. And have the checkpoint stop you if you try to enter with them. So getting a weapon inside would require other ways, and would be a crime if they catch you.

[@GM-mt3yd]

So I can be a Bully and make another player's day a pain in the ass then get a bounty for my Avatar then...ask a friend to Kill me then we share the bounty, rinse, and repeat ... Moral of the story... Griefing will never end... Also "Giving a bounty hunter special permission to carry guns in a protected area" I mean really? what could go wrong hahaha, they need to figure out a better way to do this and keep new players coming to the Game.

[@STNeish]

I don't think PvP can work properly in any open world game like this. The problem is that there are so many people that are not there for PvP. Perhaps they're exploring, perhaps they're mining, or salvaging or what have you. The point is, they're not in any position to be able to defend themselves. Since the point of PvP is to compete with other players, it takes away the point of the PvP because there's no competition. This leaves only piracy (which is a legitimate thing) or griefing. I define griefing as any action intended only to cause a player grief. If you're blowing up a ship just to tick off the other player, that's griefing. If you're doing it to steal the cargo, that's fine. The problem with trying to discourage this with in-game laws and bounty hunts and such, is that there's no real consequences to any kind of bad action. In reality, if you get killed, you're dead, and that's it. In a game, if you get killed, you respawn. Even if they did make a permadeath system, you can still create a new character. In any case, it's never a positive system to PUNISH your players. Simply making it impossible for them to do the negative things is far more productive.

[@TheSfbMet]

Combat is a core part of the game, NPC criminals don’t leave you alone if you’re out mining or exploring and they’re nearby, by design. It really doesn’t matter to the recipient if the offender is AI or human, unless it’s an ego thing, bullets are bullets and they all hurt the same. As for your definition of griefing, unless you’re interviewing every player that shoots you for their motivations, then you’re just baselessly assuming their intentions while emotional about not things not going your way. Not everything that happens to you is going to be about you. Sometimes, you’re just in the wrong place at the wrong time, but instead of legitimately asking why and what you could do better, it’s easier to just paint everyone who doesn’t act the way you want them to, as a griefer.

[@Fuar11]

The problem with griefers is that they win no matter what. If they grief you and piss you off and get away with it, they succeeded. If they grief you and piss you off and die or get some punishment, they also win because they got what they set out to do. The only way a griefer loses is if they fail to grief you or the consequence of their actions is permanent downtime from the game. The ONLY way to stop a griefer is to have the consequence be so severe they cannot play the game. And that's a hard line to draw

[@STNeish]

@@Fuar11 Actually, this exact thing happened last night when I was playing Red Dead Redemption Online. I was doing a resupply mission for my Trader profession, and two guys appeared to start shooting at me. I took them both out, but they respawned and came back to interrupt my mission again... and again... and again. So I changed session. Doing that, I realized, meant that they won. I could have killed them over and over forever, and failed my mission because of the timer. Changing session meant I failed the mission anyway, so no matter what happened, they win, and my gameplay was ruined. It's not healthy for the game.

[@azntactical4884]

I remember being in my cutter last month just minding my business in space. Some dude rolls up and disables my ship and boards. All i had was my chest, helmet and rifle. Nothing of value to take. I ended up dying like a man with a shoot out. I went back to the same spot only to get jumped by a different guy for nothing. It was so annoying.

[@r.wallaby6490]

Good on you for dying right, though without scanning gameplay the 1st guy had no idea you had nothing of value till he was on the ship. Maybe that location just isn't great to not be boarded 😅

[@gardian1701]

STANTON: No unsecured pvp PYRO: do what you like pvp 👌

[@arrclyde4325]

This will not work. I am one of those that started a group to push against griefers in an open PvP game. The problem is that you are always just chasing, while the griefers and gankers chose to attack where youbare not guarding. The main problem is, that this way a small dedicated griefer group can negatively impact a far larger group of lowies and newbies, so they put the game down. And since in order to just grief, you don't need or risk much at all. If CIG does not want their game to be in the niche region of low population games, they will need to have working systems in place. Working security is one thing, real long term consequences is the other. That doesn't mean they need to ban players. Ingame security forces need to strike fast and hatd where they are strong, while long term criminal records or reputation restricts those criminal players to certain regions by denying them easy access to other certain, lawful areas. By the way: Star Citizen is NOT a player driven game, so to uphold law and peace is NOT a player responsibility. Its an NPC driven Universe where players can take sides and decide to help upholding peace and hunt down criminals. But its never relying on the players alone, as it can not rely on that.

[@pelicule]

@@arrclyde4325 I started playing a year ago and whenever you called for help someone would come. I remember lots of people logging in as medical support. Then people started sending medical beacons up and they would assault and rob you. Now nobody comes when you call. Things can evolve rapidly.

[@thorns]

You don't think that 1. Competent NPC security 2. Prisons, kicking alts from prison after time served (to prevent merrit transfers) 3. Bounties inevitably being placed on griefers 4. Consequences from death of a space man 5. No free insurance claims 6. Reputation keeping reoffenders marked as a target in safe areas (until they gain get that rep back) 7. And a player history of crimes that sticks for other plays to see All of that wouldn't greatly help with griefing, help at least to the point which people are satisfied?

[@arrclyde4325]

@@thorns oh, CIG has to make it work. Otherwise they do things they have said to do when jumppoint security doesn't work as intended: making hard armistice zones. Its things like those griefer tactics that made change AGS (New World) and Blizzard (PvP and PvE servers now opt in PvP only) change concepts. And alts are not an issue. They already know that it doesn't make sense to bring in serious consequences when you can easily surpass those by using an alt. Alt gameplay is pretty much the worse thing in all of this. I fear that if griefers take out to much of players and remove them from the game CIG could reconcider the PvE/PvP server concept, or the PvP switch. But luckily, qhen NPC ships fly the same routes as players, outnumber them 9 to 1 and you have no quick and easy method to identify and chase players specifically, this won't be neccessary.

[@dsptchr]

If you are "putting the game down" because you got killed in the game once you should grow up.

[@arrclyde4325]

@@dsptchr That is a very immature take on that. First, most adults play games to do things they enjoy and get away from RL stress. And second its just a game, so nobody has to endure things they don't enjoy when playing something else is more fun. But as CIG and Chris have stated its going to be a game for EVERYONE, i doubt they take this immature, childish, basement dwelling approch of "man up and gid gud" for their game. They are not making a game for a few hardcore sweaty try hards, but for eveyone.

[@maxjergens]

Discussing hypothetical gameplay that isn't in the game and may be years away could potentially mislead someone into purchasing a ship.

[@HunterSteel29]

The person purchasing a ship from the store needs to fully understand what was said in Space Tomato's video. If you buy a ship because you derped through the video and didn't get that he was talking in a hypothetical or future tense, then its that person's fault.

[@alexmoon5913]

@@HunterSteel29 100% agree

[@SvalbardSleeperDistrict]

Amazing take, no content creation around the future of the most-funded videogame project in history because some people are too lazy or too stupid. How something like this gets 13 upvotes is beyond me.

[@maxjergens]

@@SvalbardSleeperDistrict Everyone knows that Chris Roberts is a scum bag businessman, only a gullible fool might believe that a developer would not expend funds to secure positive reviews or influence platforms like IGN, PC Gamer or KZbinr with financial incentives.

[@r.wallaby6490]

Does that mean we can't discuss the development of the game, he can't expect that a person watching this video won't do a little more research into it before blindly purchasing a ship

[@ronisin710]

I've been on the fence about investing in the game, but you've persuaded me with this video. There's too much pitting us against each other in the real world and I'm not paying for it to be done to me in a game where I go for escape,

[@huckwild6464]

as a brand new person to star citizen i can barely do anything because when i land someone just comes and shoots my ship when im doing something happens almost every time i play it sucks

[@TheSfbMet]

@@huckwild6464 if it’s happening that frequently, then you’re getting killed by NPCs and don’t realise it dude

[@cadmanfox]

Yeah where are you landing lol

[@eldarionmarchombre4568]

I am more of the first definition, because that what the word describe: someone for which his main goal is to make others grieve. Hence a "griefer". The only issue: how to know the goal of someone? But we can have a good idea after multiple interactions (generally bad ones), or by checking his actions afterward. In most cases, I generally only meet the following players: - Players seeking to kill anything moving (and which are defenseless in most cases) - Players specifically waiting to get you in the baddest of time (waiting at a refinery just to destroy your Prospector, or hidden looking with a sniper riffle at the door to shoot you just after buying your cargo, …) - Player killing for fun when an opportunity show up Rarely, I meet players really playing like criminals / pirates. Can count them on 2 hands in 5 years, as I don't count those using bugs or abusing game mechanism…

[@Hamburger-j1t]

Awesome as usual. I watch a lot on Star Citizen, and your vids are consistently the best.

[@good_speed_0h]

Wow such a great Video‼️ Love it keep up the great work 👍🏾

[@ONYX1768]

Honestly, The extent of thing's I'd consider griefing consists mostly of abusing armistice and ramming. In the current update there's nothing to stop players from stealing your cargo as you're loading it. You can freely initiate PVP outside of armistice and return to the nearby mining outpost. Most of what rustles my jimmies is the simple fact that the very systems they have in place to prevent griefing are the very systems abused to most infuriate players. I'd honestly wish that instead of the silly stopgap of what armistice is currently. I feel like the fastest way they could kill that amusement park feeling is by removing those guardrails ASAP because armistice pretty much equals a zone of 0 player to player gameplay, something we have very little of as is.

[@BernhardMarchhart]

only one way will work against griefers. Jailtime no bailout and only onlinetime. lets say 10 Hours for a kill in active onlinetime in Klescher and your griefer is gone for some time.

[@egor6135]

@@BernhardMarchhart there's literally no point in any punishment, even if you permaban griefers they will just buy a new account, much like cheaters do in other games. If you put them in klesher, griefers will just multibox 10 different accounts. The only way to stop griefing is a pvp slider and it will happen eventually, just as it has in every single other MMO, whether the sealclubbing crowd likes it or not.

[@BernhardMarchhart]

@egor6135 positive I totally agree to your solution. The bad thing is CIG denied us this slider and said it will never come. I hope they change their mind. And for the black fleet give us realy profitable goods to buy in PVP zones and than the slider is 15 min ON after leaving the zone.

[@egor6135]

@@BernhardMarchhart they've changed their mind on a lot of things, I think them seeing the amount of people drop the game after losing 3 hours of progress to a griefer will speed that up, but it will probably only happen after full release (if there ever is one)

[@Moolz]

Great video! Loved the break down.

[@darkfang1898]

as long as you can kill someone for no other reason than lulz, there will always been griefers. with the punishment system being a complete joke at absolute best; players have literally no reason to not grief other players . while i've been hearing counter measures being worked on for future implementation, year after year goes by and nothing has been implemented yet. the simple truth is - what CIG and DA roberts plan is will never happen; people will always still grief each other so long as theirs open pvp, and unless drastically changed, there's no reason even a pver can see why anyone would stop griefing.

[@yashik]

Suggestion for next episode of Deep Dive: How to cause Absolute Mayhem, Anarchy and utter Chaos... from Monday to Friday ruining others player day in a consistent way

[@bnut1979]

There will always be the "seal clubbing" trolls on alternate accounts. There is no way around it. They would rather prey on easy targets for lolz and do anything they can to disrupt other player's enjoyable gameplay...just because.

[@Fletchman1313]

I think reputation should also determine what kind of ship you can fly. For example, you can only use a Cutlass Red if you have high rep with one of the hospitals. Or a Cutlass Blue if you have high rep with police. Or a F8-C (or a military grade fighter) only if you have high rep with UEE. And maybe a Hull-D only if you have high rep with one of the shipping companies. Every faction has a ship or ships that you can fly if you're good with them (even the pirates or criminal orgs), and maybe even in some cases you get access to it as long as you're "working" for them at the moment. Like maybe you do medical missions for a bit, and Brentwood issues you a Cutlass Red.

[@Kiyomoto657]

I hate PVP, but this video got me strangely hyped about it. I hope they find the balance to keep everyone satisfied.

[@devildawgpryde4764]

I've played Age of Conan Unchained for many years. Started in 08' and early in their launch, the major hub cities were open season with PVP. Way too much ganking and griefing of lower players and in general. I think it really hurt the launch of the game and drove many new players away from an amazing game. It didn't last long after they put guards and restrictions including reputation, then made the hubs PVE only. Only 2 servers now. One for PVE and the other PVP but the Hubs are complete safe zones. You can still get attacked by mobs if you have a certain quest. I have cleaned out Tortage of guards with lvl 80 mobs associated to a quest. Mobs killing lowbies and camping them as the rez pad. ;) I got ahold of the monitors and showed them when I discovered I could do this. But it was fun watching the chaos ensue, not going to lie. lol Sat in Hide and watched as the 6 lvl 80 Berserkers were running around and cleaning Tortage. There needs to be safe zones, and I thought that is what Armistice zones were designed to be. A safe zone for players with a good rep and no crime stats.

[@r.wallaby6490]

I think the idea of safe zones being an unarmed space you can't bring a gun into is cool, once server fps goes above 10-15 and the AI can actually do stuff then I think people will find it's a lot easier to create these zones. Maybe buffing defences to stations and stuff would make this even better, and I'm sure someone smarter than me can work out how to deal with pad rammers.

[@geko0607]

I like the idea of a reputation system where a high-level bounty hunter is allowed to carry weapons in weapon-free zones. Also, I think it might be a good idea to not immediately lose all of your reputation for accidentally shooting someone. Instead, you could be charged a hefty fine, which you would need to pay within, say, 10 minutes, and that payment would go directly to the victim - something like a retribution payment.

[@Terran0va_Plays]

Yo, these ideas are great lol. I hope CiG is taking notes

[@unblessedcoffee1457]

I'm not sure why everyone in the community is behaving like griefing is some new, unexpected phenomenon. This has been a thing in video games since the dawn of time. There are hundreds of solutions with different pros and cons. Watching them pretend this is some revolutionary new challenge is just tragic at this point.

[@PlatinumParakeet]

@@unblessedcoffee1457 griefing and how it's dealt with is unique to each game and what it considers as griefing. They aren't talking about griefing being new, but rather how they can deal with it in a way that works in star citizen

[@XxTavoRxX]

I don't see where they said it was new. Yes it has always been a thing and what they want to do is figure a solution. Personally, the only real solution is just not allowing it unless in specified pvp zones

[@sebastiancoar1991]

Though I am not a fan of my goods being stolen by pirates; the few times it has happened to me, in Star Citizen, I understood why it happened. Usually, my cargo ship wasn't destroyed in the process too. Real PvP in Star Citizen, usually revolved around a player who was bounty hunting a player criminal or a player in a fighter trying to get another player in a fighter, to duel them. Jumptown also produces PvP opportunities, though not as often as most of the PvP community would like; mostly due to how difficult it is to find Jumptown, without a designated beacon. Griefing, on the other, does not enrich anyones experience in Star Citizen, because there is no rhyme or reason to it. It's just a player causing another player grief because they can. The griefer doesn't get richer, doesn't get more combat experience, and above all else, doesn't engage with the overall Star Citizen community. Currently, CIG has not fleshed out bounty hunting or mercenary missions in any way, shape, or form. I find it to be ridiculously difficult to gain a player bounty hunting license because, the bounties or griefers can hide at Grim Hex; because it's an armiciste zone?! The solution seems simple to me: one, just give players the Player Bounty Hunting Certificate from the start; two, *FIX* the "Call to Arms" mission, CIG broke it when they nerfed it into the ground; three, give griefers an instant crimestat 5 upon killing another player; four, if a player bounty hunter slays the griefer, not only does that player get paid for the contract, but they also get to take *All* of the griefers earned in game UEC and equipment. That's right, make them have to work themselves back up from what they didn't get in a game package; and five, when the Pyro system is released, they cannot jump back to Stanton for 120 hours, real time, and have a murderous npc faction specifically programmed to hunt and "grief" the griefer, *Anywhere* , at *Anytime* .

[@M4cex]

Damn the first question already got me laughing :D "Have you ever had a conversation about griefing?" Well have ya ever heard about SC... Yup!

[@matteobarbarini3120]

HEY Tomato! where do you get those beautiful maps of the galaxy in SC?

[@Dwiimor]

I think an armistice still works for close range to a station, even cars today could be coded to follow speed signs, so I dont see the problem of a station sending a blocking signal to ships to use weapons....but then there could be a hack to remove that "blocker" for a ship that would just increase the crimestat if the ship fires, its just adding gameplay that way without removing some of the safety

[@kookiespace]

EVE Online has done this 20 years ago and it works pretty well. Although we'll have to see how this develops in SC

[@dakotah4866]

Man I really can't wait for this game to be fleshed out. I like when people talk about legal and how they know what it is. When legal and lower two different things. contraband with primarily be unlawful not primarily illegal endless someone's bringing something in after signing a contract and lying on the contract then it would be kind of illegal. The fact that everything about this game has to do with contracts is basically maritime law which is contract law. The law of the sea in this case the skies well space.

[@wrexx7168]

CIG should implement FPS insurance but only for under skin, armor, helmet, backpack and holstered weapons/equipment. But not a free replacement with insurance but have the player pay a deductible. Enough of us have put plenty time and effort into finding rare weapons and armor stashes that we do not want to lose it cause we got grieved by some pvper and their team. It would add a balance to the game and prevent players from rage quitting from the loss of a rare item. They would pay the deductible and then go and do something else to earn back the creds they forked out.

[@norske_ow3440]

In 10 years of playing star citizen, I have never been pirated except for feeble attempts by solo mantis’. For me it has only been pad rammers/campers, gank squads (8-10 fighters with a bounty on one of them) or bounty hunters that would rather get a crime stat than let someone else have “their bounty”. Would love to see this actually make people want to pirate for real

[@larrymitchell6470]

You have no rules PvP you will have lots of Griefing…full stop. The prioritization of PvP is due to CIG unable to make actual PvE missions that are fun. Requires AI and no bugs, PvP is players doing CIGs work for them so it’s the easy way out of needing to develop. Issue is the game is among the most time consuming to do the most basic crap with extreme punishment like full loot. Space sims are very niche, flight games are very very niche, PvP is niche, full loot is very very very niche. Why I keep saying you cannot have a small active playerbase for a game of this size. They need to at the least…get a bit of PvE going, kill full loot as a thing, reduce time sinks for repetitive tasks. PvP guard rails to not have it everywhere even in hostile zones. They do this it MAY have a shot of survival. Even PvP and PvE servers as an option would bring in more players minus the insane bugs. I still say S42 releases, Chris gets the PU and engine to look presentable and then sell the company as since he never sold much equity he will get a massive pay day but can claim he did deliver a project. Then the new owner fixes this mess and kills many ideas that make the game niche and focus on making it mainstream.

[@syverjove]

I can’t wait to enjoy this when it’s fully implemented in 2034

[@HunterGalvius]

I’m in favor of a kind of free for all system with a diabetic security system through laws and factions since it will encourage people to group up and work together, while not making it totally impossible to go solo.

[@adrianslater9127]

It wouldn't be fun if your crime stat 5 meant that your pledge store purchase was unavailable for 10 days because you got caught in a high-security system

[@JohnVanderbeck]

One HUGE question is if enough good (as in alignment AND skill) players will be Bounty Hunters.

[@mattoverton5526]

The economy should play a big part in this unless they do something nuts like restock loot in areas without functioning trade routes because those areas need to be “fun”. The npcs in drug labs for instance should reduce or even stop production and leave for a new location if their supply lines get cut in turn staving out cash in the local economy. The economy simply should be Moving the hotspots all the time in less lawful stable areas as other areas would get to service the demand as friction increases.

[@valorunkommon799]

I do hope that once CIG starts finalizing this game they start doling out severe punishments to provable cases of griefing. Full on permaban, no refunds level bug swatting. If they don’t take it seriously, they're going to steadily lose player base (certainly in lawless systems) until they're unable to keep their business model afloat. I've already had 3 Wing Commander+ original backer friends sell out and walk away. They've been backing since 2013

[@Flores_blizzy]

Honestly i think cig will probably back pedal on perma death. Because this is huge like unpredictable flaws bugs and player actions. It will probably be mostly money and rep loss when you die not alot bit it would add up over time.

[@L0LcatDan]

Not looking forward to when an EVE Canflipper style exploit is found and becomes part of the griefer's playbook. I hope that it'd at least be difficult to pull off.

[@_vortech_]

Best solution: new update includes a contract prohibiting griefing. It outlines new conditions and terms if you want to continue playing on the updated version. Consequences of griefing could include your weapons and health are significantly nerfed in you're flagged as a serial griefer and the only way to restore them is to be a good and honest player for a significant time. If you don't agree to the terms, then you'll only be able to play only on versions that are before the latest version.

[@r.wallaby6490]

But then they'd still have to host servers for that version which can get expensive if you're now hosting 3 different game versions (old, Current and Dev)

[@aroncrowell]

I think another problem is where people can build hundreds of millions of credits. Then there really isn't much more for them to work for or to lose. They get bored with the game. Then they just start killing people

[@kaltenp7870]

with alts in games reputation for hardcore "pvp'ers" will not play in fact in anything they will actually be advantaged being able to play both sides

[@andrewfanner2245]

Better in game comms will be needed. Ships will need basic security such as the equivalent of keys, only a party member can fly and so forth. If CIG want miltiplayer they need ways to gain trust, so individual reputation. And FFS stop designing insecure systems like the cargo pickups at outposts. If the outpost wants trade then it will try and make that trade easier and safer. By all means allow hacking to get into and take over a ship, but it should be trickey, interruptible and criminal. Ships like the Mantis or Cutlass Blue should only be sold to the reputable, or those wiht a big enough criminal rep to get the papers falsified. But...so far we see none of this and most of it is rarely even mentioned.

[@EE-STUDIOS]

5:01 eyy! Yeah, maybe we won’t need to be so secretive about our productions in safer systems.

[@johnnynesbit8289]

In other game communities ive seen players gang up on griefers... improve the systems for bounty hunting and justice

[@hippyhack4450]

The difference between someone who griefs someone who is a pirate is profit/ gaining something from your loss. A pirate will use any means necessary to gain profit from anything you own even your cargo, gear even components. Griefers are just doing it to enjoy your suffering and misery.

[@musakotze2881]

Anti griefing could come down to a vote to kick system

[@MagnusAlbion]

A few months ago I was making a cross system trade run. I lifted off from Lyria and I was locked on to by a griefer. I was hit but I made the jump at the skin of my teeth. So damn exhilarating.

[@r.wallaby6490]

Can I ask why you say griefer? They didn't abuse systems and sounds like they were just trying to steal your cargo, making them a pirate not a griefer.

[@igamewhenimbored7696]

They need to add omniscient law enforcement like GTA that spawns just outside your position if they're going to enable PVP everywhere. Instead of whatever we have now where you can get murdered, ship destroyed, and lose all of your equipment, and fined 200,000 credits because you were rammed by griefers. Those people should be ip and hardware banned lol

[@dsptchr]

"gRiEfiNg"

[@mightyfineincredible2252]

Did anyone tell you your dictator dropped out of the race?

[@colonel__klink7548]

The threat of permadeath in an MMO is such a braindead idea that I have stopped pledging more money to the game until they promise it won't happen. Seriously. You can't deliver a box without getting shot at but the devs are going to introduce permadeath. "But what if they make it so you can deliver a box without getting shot at?" You mean... make the game boring with no challenges or risks in it what soever? Why even have guns on the ships at all then? Combat is a core focus of the game, that's a fact and deleting people's characters because they played combat in your combat game too long is asinine. It's idiocy of the highest order.

[@spaztor7723]

agreed, i seriously dont mind getting whooped constantly , it adds to the unexpecting terror of unknowns that the universe has

[@Cursethedawn]

Hard to have griefing when nobody is playing. I've never seen another soul in game for months.

[@r.wallaby6490]

Are you sure you've been playing the right game?

[@honorabledodger]

PvP will work 1) with a good flag system. 2) in a non-gear centric system. 3) where you can make a "build" that increases a players chance to escape or avoid pvp.

[@viperswhip]

Except, I don't mind getting killed by AI but I hate getting killed by a player who is killing me for no reason. AI are normally controlling an area.

[@j.d.4697]

To me, the border to griefing is where it crosses over to RL.

[@cmdr_stretchedguy]

The griefers and trolls will remain in Stanton (or later the border of "safe" areas) because they hate competition, they want to keep griefing and trolling. They don't want the legit pvp players to fight back and kill them.

[@VindensSaga]

Yeah. There is a difference between PvP and griefing. Griefing is just to cause misery, it is really just a result of anti-social issue. PvP is part of the game.

[@Bailey-k2j]

Sooo...no griefing, but players can still attack you? What? LOL. CIG some clowns. No such thing as griefing in SC. Too many woke devs at CIG.

[@mightyfineincredible2252]

Bro thinks permabanning griefers is "woke" 💀

[@Bailey-k2j]

@@mightyfineincredible2252 So ship ramming is griefing, but destroying all your cargo when you land with my Eclipse torpedoes is not griefing? Anyway to destroy you, is fair game and is not griefing. Clown.

[@TheModelOmega]

I can understand trying to end repetitive stream sniping, but anything else is just PVP gameplay. Last thing they should do is ban players for piracy in a game that allows it. Instead, give lawful players the option to hire NPC ship escorts-I know PVP players would love the challenge. 😅

[@ersans-i1t]

First of all, good day, you are a great channel. please read until the end and reply. By the way, I own Starfield and Elite Dangus 1.) Is this game worth buying right now? It's too expensive for me. Should I buy it when it comes out or would it be more profitable to buy it now? 2.) I see this game as an investment, even though it's a low price, it's still a lot for me :) So will this game be sold for a better price on Steam etc. or its own site after its release? I don't want to see myself as a fool. 3.) Will those who buy this game now have an advantage when it comes out? (like fortnite stw being bought in alpha and given founder when it came out) 4.) my system is rx 6750 xt gpu 3400g cpu 20 gb ram and hdd will it fix the game (personally starfield nightmare hdd) ssd m is 120gb and windows installed i think it won't fit 5.) what is this 1000 dollar thing? will it be a disadvantage for us or will it cast a shadow?

[@ynotmcduck]

Hi anyone know where I can get the helmet at 8:13 and 9:57

[@skoomd4447]

Star citizens only griefing issue is pad ramming. Everything beyond that your just being a carebear. Play eve you will quickly find out star citizen isnt even close to "griefing" other than the issue of pad ramming.

[@Quake_X1]

All the mechanics aren't in the game yet, till they are that's what you got to deal with unfortunately. Half thoughtout ideas not fully implemented or started. It plagues many open world pvp games. Very few checks and balances or tools for players to use to remedy their situation.

[@lordbastich]

For new players, most if not all of these systems are currently in the game. They most probably will not implemented any time soon.

[@r.wallaby6490]

sorry, do you mean currently NOT in game

[@lordbastich]

@@r.wallaby6490 omg, you are right - meant NOT in game. ugh - should have proofread my own comment

[@wilhelmbloodworth1057]

Game Developers need to understand that PVE players are what make games now a days. An if PVE is not the focus point you will start to bleed player base and then your game becomes a dead game. Although PVP is fun concept not many player if not most players are big on PVP. Players more so now a days are starting to lean more and more towards PVE then PVP, making any PVP game very hard to maintain as sooner or later there will be less players there to support PVP content. So online game developers need to start focusing on their PVE players more then their PVP players. Because its the PVE players that will be the reason why their game makes it or fails.

[@FabioHB]

What about a tag, if you are griefing often and ruining other people’s experience you get tagged as a griefer. Your name will be made visible and and it will have a “mark (griefer)”, so that other people know what to expect and avoid the player in question. Plus if you attack the player, you will not get crimestat and the player that is tagged, can be downed several times until he looses the “tag”. So he can have a taste of his own medicine. Or simply nerf all his equipments into oblivion, so that the tagged player automatically looses any conflict he gets involved into. I shoot his ship with a pistol? Boom, I punch his Taurus? Boom. Enjoy

[@parkerxgps]

It really doesn't take much to help the loser feel like they had a gamers chance. Is it that much harder to actually give them that chance? It should be possible.

[@Flores_blizzy]

So my thoughts on perma death is it shouldn't be a thing in star citizen

[@SpaceTomato]

What do you mean by permadeath?

[@scatoletta6618]

This was already solved by elte dangerous. Just give people the option to play singleplayer or in a private group

[@house382]

Non-consensual PvP should be difficult for the aggressor to pull off cleanly. Full stop. At no point in human has physical goods piracy been easy. If it was, people very quickly stopped using those routes and methods. Even the most dangerous places on earth have ways to move goods and services in a profitable way. Human controlled space should be no different. The reputation system needs its overhaul. We should be able to set our own reputation for players/orgs in game. If we are pirated while doing a job for Covalex, the pirates rep should take a massive hit with Covalex and a smaller one with the UEE. Ditto if the mission is for a Pyro gang. Without the reputation hit and the impact that will bring, there's zero impact on the players wanting to mindlessly troll. This is where the line is missing. I'm ok if the Stanton scrap royalty puts a hit on me because I'm a scrapping god. I'm less ok being unfortunate random number 4 and it didn't matter what I was actually doing, just that I was there. Non-consensual PvP should be difficult.

[@Dominus4776]

Thankfully I've never been griefed in sc. Only been attacked by another player once and he sent me 100k afterwards

[@Volf1916]

Intentionally and artificially rewarding PVP focused systems identifies that the majority of the player base and backers dont want to deal with pirates, getting ganked or losing their game and tecreation time to worthless encounters with other players that just cant handle actual PVP focused games. When Pyro enters into the PU we are going to see the spike in "new shiny" migration until as normal the player base moves back to what they were doing before. At which time the "pirates are going to start complaining that as before, no one wants to play in yheir sand box and Stanton needs to be more like Pyro so they can have more than other "pirates" as victems. Jack up profits in Pyro all CIG wants. Not going to change,

[@ScOOrK_]

Saw it more then once in chat and in eye. Guy with F8C destroyed CAT full of cargo, not for piracy, just for destroying it. Just for fun. Kid that had worked his ass off to get whole cat of cargo got wiped of credits and after crying on chat just raged quit. Yeh we did hunt him down and got CS3 so what? That punishing system is a joke. You can always invade Kareah and wipe it clean or just run of prison and repeat if you fail on first trail. Or just go to mines and hunt miners - there is no punishment for having 10000 souls on your account.

[@sephiridan5279]

The systems that CIG is showing us so far will never work. My opinion, of course -- feel free to disagree. But I'm pretty certain I'll be there to see it all fail if things don't change course. "Terra is safe," "Pyro is dangerous," right. Lions don't generally look to prey on other lions -- they go for deer and other such herbivores that are their favored prey. Pirates aren't out to pirate from pirates -- they're looking to go after those nice juicy cargo haulers. CIG's "system" is a joke.

[@barcidstudios]

I played eve online and ran a pirate corp for several years. I can tell you that the people in star cit are jellyfish compared to the thick skin of eve players. I once got on mongrel squads live stream chat and told them that simply hunting players for sport is not pure piracy (there is no clear true definition of piracy and mever will be) and their ceo got emotionally angry on the stream about it. Moral of the story? If you dont want to be a killer then be a hunter killer, adapt dont cry.