Special Guns with Roger Rule Episode 1: Winchester Pre-64 Model 70 Rifle

[@captjim007]

I met Roger Rule at his home in Modesto in the early 90's. He was selling a 458 Model 70. I didn't buy the gun but I bought one of his deluxe leather bound books, The Rifleman's Rifle.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you for buying the book, Racer x

[@georgeflutey838]

Racer X, bet you wish you bought that rifle now. I,m after one .Not many for sale here in New Zealand!

[@captjim007]

@@georgeflutey838 No I never wanted a 458. I really like my 1950 300 h&H . It is very accurate, sub 1 inch. I've had many m70's and I think the best most accurate ones were made from 1949 to 1952 from my personal experiences.

[@rupertmcnaughtdavis7302]

I have to say that in 1975 my grandmother bought me a brand new Mod 70 in 308,post 64 of course.With it I have shot steenbuck,duiker, springbuck,mountain reedbuck,common reedbuck,fallow deer,bushbuck,blesbuck,blue wildebeest,kudu,warthog,wild boar,feral pig and eland.That`s a lot of shooting,all with the nice Williams open sight it came out with and not a moments problem in 42 years.

[@rogerrule8195]

Hi Rupert, Thank you for speaking up about the post-64. I have had others tell me they were still accurate guns, even though they were no longer the Mauser controlled feed system and even though the barrels were not bedded but free-floated and even though the finish of both the wood and metal were sub standard compared to their predecessor.

[@rupertmcnaughtdavis7302]

Thank you for your reply,point taken.

[@tomhairston4980]

I own 2 pre 64 Winchesters, that were left to me by my Dad, after he passed...a 270 and a 375 H+H magnum, both mfg in 1950 (according to Winchester collectors assn)...taken several deer with the 270, nothing yet with the 375...both of these guns mean the world to me, both very accurate!!

[@kennethbailey2616]

My dad bought a Win 70 in 1958 in .243. He gave it to me in 1965. I gave it to my grandson last year.

[@rogerrule8195]

A real heirloom, great idea, I hope your grandson continues the family tradition.

[@Featherweight221]

Thank you so much! The most read book in my library is "The Rilfeman's Rifle". It's brought me much pleasure through the years. Can't thank you enough! (I have to add that I'd purchased the First Edition at the Cody WCA show years ago..and then the 2nd edition a few years later as a spare - just in case!)

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you J.C. for the kind words.

[@captjim007]

Hey Roger, you are right about the 270 with 130gr Sierra BT with DuPont IMR 4350 powder being the most accurate load. I have my dad's 1950 Model 70 Standard Grade in 270 Winchester # 139xxx with a 2.5x8 Bausch and Lomb Balvar scope mounted with their quick detach adjustable two piece bases. I wish I had made a video of when I shot a three round group that all touched at 100 yards. While maybe not so uncommon, I removed the quick detach scope after the first shot, to prove the repeatability of the scope mount to a friend, then put it back on and shot two more rounds, both touched the first round fired

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you Racer X, Your experience pretty much matches mine with that load. Roger

[@captjim007]

Glad to hear from you. I was 12 in 77 and lived in a house next to the one you had built on Swain Dr. in Sherwood Forest North.

[@thomthompson9217]

Though I do not own a model 70 I do own a pre-64 model 88 Winchester lever action. My interest in the pre-64 Winchester model’s brought me to this KZbin channel and I can see it certainly was not a mistake. Thank you Roger and keep up the good work of promoting an icon in American history.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you Thom, I appreciate the comment.

[@rogerrule8195]

Sorry for the late reply, my website was down for awhile. We think it was sabotaged, but it is up and running again. Thank you for the encouraging comment, I do have some new videos coming out.

[@kyinvestor]

Roger I have recently inherited a 1947 30-06 model 70 with an elaborate Lyman adjustable peep sight, serial number 637XX. The gun was sold new to a returning P.O.W. in Frankfort Kentucky and has remained in the family since. It is truly in as new condition, and I’m scared to death to pick it up for fear of marring it. I haven’t even bought it out to show my hunting buddies. Thank you for sharing your wonderful knowledge and enthusiasm for this great American artifact. I don’t want to part with the rifle, but I receive little joy from something too precious to use. Maybe I should buy a shooter grade.

[@rogerrule8195]

That would be one good suggestion. The old model 70 stocks were so interchangeable when made in the same era, that I once took a valuable 9mm M70 hunting, but removed its original stock and installed a second well-worn stock for the hunting trip. It is hard to damage the metal if you are careful and keep it dry and oiled. Then, after the hunt, I replaced the original stock. Thanks for sharing your story.

[@lmbear]

I'm a big fan buddy. I can't thank you enough for writing your book, "The Rifleman's Rifle". It is a wealth of knowledge and I've used it extensively. I am in full agreement with you about why the pre 64 model 70 is collectable and desirable by most hunters. Even by todays standards, the pre 64 model 70 is hard to beat. There's a reason it's the rifleman's rifle and all others are judged by it. I don't take a rifle in the woods that I can't trust, that's why I own pre 64's. You are an inspiration to your fellow model 70 owners. Keep up the good work. Thanks...

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you, your comments are most appreciated and your passion for the rifle is equally shared here.

[@georgeflutey838]

Great, video Roger,Thanks. The most informative video I,ve seen about model 70s. Never knew there were so many variations. I just bought my first 70 recently. sn no G960330. Push feed. Very heavy target rifle with 20 power Unertl scope. Has 4 Sling swivels with rail under forewood with series of holes for front hand grip piece. .308, jewelled bolt. Quite rare here in New Zealand.

[@rogerrule8195]

I believe you will see a comparable rifle to yours in my Chapter 10 of The Rifleman's Rifle. Nice gun, probably extremely accurate!!!!

[@Not_Sure_81]

I just pulled mine out of long term (15 year) hibernation. It was my great grandfathers bought new in 1955. It is a 270win featherweight with period correct scope. It was well oiled when put to sleep and is in immaculate condition. No idea the value but if i take it out to put some rounds through it would that hurt the value? I didn't even know my model 70 was rare. It was always the old deer rifle in the case. I have much more respect for my rifle now. Great video sir!

[@rogerrule8195]

Shooting it will absolutely not hurt it. Just take care to not mark the wood or damage it in any way. Keep protection on the metal from the elements. Nice find! Thank you for your comment. Roger

[@Not_Sure_81]

Roger Rule excellent! Going to get some federal fusion 130 grain rounds tomorrow. I'll take good care of it. Thank you for your reply and have a happy thanksgiving

[@kennethbailey2616]

My fellow Marine, Carlos Hathcock, used a Model 70 in 30/06 during his first tour.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you for letting me know that. I knew they were still using them in the Viet Nam war but had no news of the more modern use. My .270 is so accurate, I would have felt more safe with it than with my AR (I went through Infantry OCS).

[@adamwiech4874]

I own several pre 64"s sporters ,super grades and now a 1960 varminter heavy barrel in.220 swift topped with a period correct unertl 9 power scope and harris bipods ,I may put this one on the market as it's 1 of only 900 made if a serious collectors interested.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thanks Adam, try selling it on GunsInternational.com

[@adamwiech4874]

@@rogerrule8195 I did just that ,a gentleman from Tennessee wanted it and he bought it at a nice price we both were happy with .thanks again

[@benmeyers5152]

Nice to see you here Roger. I enjoyed the show and look forward to more featured firearms in the future. Yes, I'm still collecting.

[@rogerrule8195]

HI Ben, great to hear from you. I'm glad you enjoyed the show and thanks for letting me know.

[@kenaidog6974]

I have a 1954 Model 70 finished by Roy Vail in 375 Weatherby. Great that FN is making quality Model 70s and hopefully start a real custom shop for further embellishments.

[@rogerrule8195]

I agree, that would be great to see again.

[@Jakob808]

Great show! Very informative. Not only about the Model 70 but Roger Rule as well. Looking forward to more episodes!

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you, Jacob.

[@TheFranksta1970]

Thank you Roger for educating me looking forward to all your episodes you have more knowledge in your pinky finger than most people have in their whole body thank you again

[@rogerrule8195]

Your compliment is too much! Thank you.

[@Player_Review]

Mine [I inherited] was made in 1967, missed the Mauser claw by a mere three years. So sad. Still, I think I'll buy that book. My Model 70 is in .308. It has taken dozens of deer, though I've only taken one with it as I'm not an avid hunter. BTW: Love the Shoji screen in the background. Very cool.

[@rogerrule8195]

I think you might enjoy my book; Chapter 10 is devoted to the post 63 rifle, but only up to when the book was published in 1982. The classic rifle brought out later has the claw extractor and is a very good rifle. Thank you for your nice comments. The Shoji screen is authentic, about 1903, and was purchased long before we had trade agreements with China. Both sides of the screen are detailed with ancient Chinese battles.

[@rogerrule8195]

I am just reminded that Shoji screens are Japanese; mine is antique Chinese called a black Coromandel double-sided 8-panel screen, 8 feet tall and 12 feet long.

[@billandjackieseebaum7255]

Great idea and great episode. Thank you for doing this, Roger. It is wonderful. Bill and Jackie Seebaum

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you for the kudos and the comment. I am delighted you like it.

[@davidwhitney933]

Great start to the series Roger. It was great to hear how you got started developing your passion and collecting the Winchester Model 70. I learned a few things about the genesis and evolution of the rifle and look forward to learning about many more great firearms from your collection. Your gun buddy, Dave

[@rogerrule8195]

Hey Dave, thank you for your comments. As I said in that first episode, the future ones will be less about me and more about the gun, ha!

[@user-tw9sc4xn8v]

Roger thanks so much for your expert talk thoroughly enjoyed it… it was excellent 👍

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you for this intelligent comment.

[@jimhayes2889]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you for watching and thanks for the comment.

[@mnrcustomllc8253]

Great episode! Thanks for putting these out there Roger.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you.

[@kylekozlowski3310]

Wonderful! Cannot wait for more.... Roger has an excellent insight and exhaustive knowledge! Perfect rifle to start with, excited for the next episode...

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you, Kyle.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you Kyle, but I think, being my nephew, that you might be a little prejudice. Thanks very much for the comment. Uncle Roger

[@claydufilho191]

wait a minute. The only reason I took a look at this video is because I saw a Remington bolt action rifle made in 1962 in a pawn shop chambered in a caliber I had never heard of, 264 Win. Mag. It looked amazing for being almost 60 years old, and I could tell that at least one person loved to use and own this gun. It had one place on the barrel and another on the wooden fore end that had signs of wear. But that caliber just kept nagging at me for some reason, so did a KZbin search, and here I am. I will say right now that I have what I would call a "general knowledge of firearms", and am in no way an expert on any particular type, model, manufacturer, caliber or any of the countless categories of firearms knowledge. I am a self-proclaimed gun nut, so I have a lot of books on the history of gun manufacture, famous gun designers, the history of small arms, etc. A few years ago, I came into the possession of a few boxes of 30-30 ammunition. I don't have a gun chambered for it, and neither do any of my relatives, who live in tiny town Texas rural country. I know that the vast majority of the guns chambered for 30-30 are lever actions, but I wondered if there was something out of the norm that I could show off or at least share some cool history. but everyone I asked said that they had never heard of anything but lever guns and the occasional break action. But at 6:45 in the video, you said you owned a pre-64 bolt action rifle chambered in 30-30? how difficult is that to find? I would guess that I probably couldn't afford it. but I would appreciate a reply. thanks!

[@rogerrule8195]

I actually owned two of them over the years. They are in that top niche of high dollars for collectors. I think I sold one for $22,500.00 in 1985 and the buyer, an avid collector, still thinks he got a good deal. It's a rimmed cartridge and consequently, hard for manufacturers to work it through the magazine without problems. However, the Winchester Model 70 predecessor, the Model 54, was available in 30-30 and they are not in the same category of collectable. You should be able to find one of those at a reasonable price, although, admittedly, I haven't looked for one for some time. Roger

[@claydufilho191]

+Roger Rule Thanks so much for the advice, and the reply. If you are ever in Houston TX, I would love to meet you. Happy Thanksgiving!

[@jasonsimone3523]

Clay Dufilho Buy that 264 win mag. You will love it. Great caliber and super accurate.

[@Nick-wn1xw]

Never heard of the .264 Win mag? You gotta get out more! 😅

[@jasonsimone3523]

Hi Roger,love your books and love the model 70!!!! I have them in 30/30,30/06,270,220swift and 264 win mag.I am currently searching for one in 375 H&H Mag.

[@rogerrule8195]

Wow, the 30/30 is very rare, good find. I have seen several nice .375s on GunsInternational.com I saw a 24" heavy barrel (the second barrel variantion) recently.

[@jasonsimone3523]

Roger Rule Thanks, the 30/30 I got from a kid at work that inherited from his grandfather along with a Winchester 54 in 30/06 and a model 64 30/30. He knew nothing about guns but knew I collected them so he asked me if I wanted to look at them and needless to say I bought them all at a great price. Thanks for the heads up on the 375 I will check out Guns international.

[@dinoquintana4319]

This was a great video with one exception. The post 64 model 70 saved winchester from bankruptcy. The model 70 xtr was as ĥandsome as any pre 64 and were better then the model 700 rem I love the pre 64 winchester 70 ditto the post 64,and the early 90 s super grade that I have in 7 mag .my best rifle far and away is my 1st year production model 54 in 30 government 06.while the 70 had several upgrades over the 54,my 54 beats any of the 4 pre64 model 70s I have better than my 1903.better than my custom fn Mauser My lowly 54 handles like a light shotgun and will shoot a 165 gr Hornady interlock 5 shot group into a ragged hole at 100 yds.i don't shoot this rifle at targets anymore only game ,and I don't let anyone touch it. All winchesters are good some great rifles

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you for your comment.

[@robertbrandywine]

Hey, I just realized that 1936 - 1962 (or 1963) is 26 or 27 years and that the Classic (the new CRF) was introduced in 1992, was made thru 2006 and then restarted in 2008 to present so it has been made for 26 years.

[@rogerrule8195]

Robert, thank you for that calculation, very interesting observation.

[@rogerrule8195]

Great observation and I like the review for the new classic version in the newer versions of Bolt Action Rifle

[@michaelguerin56]

Thank you. I will have to finally order a copy of that book i.e., get the gorse out of my pockets.

[@rogerrule8195]

You can find used ones on Amazon and save a few dollars.

[@michaelguerin56]

@@rogerrule8195 Might be the case BUT as I live in New Zealand, the savings are not so much. I also get sick and tired of the defective Amazon algorithm which repeatedly directs me to sellers who will not ship internationally🙂. Keep up the good work.

[@u.p.woodtick3296]

It took me 10 years to find my 1952 birth year mod 70, in 30-06 that is 98% original condition. Just keep searching and you’ll find the one you’re after.

[@rogerrule8195]

Yep, that's basically it. That's how I put together my original collection -- lots of looking.

[@martinstiastny7679]

I just found your KZbin channel, because I was shopping, on the website, Guns International, for a new toy that I don't need, but must have.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you, Martin, for commenting.

[@bluebox154]

So much educative .... From a longtime ago , we wanted some episodes like this. keep uploading your next episode ROGER! I have visited your website www.rogerrule.com already. Great website with a lot of info. You are a writer too !! I am impressed.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you, I will and I have many more.

[@ahsanullahuniversityofscie6938]

Awesome ~

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you

[@James-ki6xi]

Cant wait until next weeks episode

[@rogerrule8195]

I have lost my video helper and am searching for another as qualified. The delay will continue for awhile.

[@Gideom007]

Roger- thanks for making this video I am curious what your thoughts are on the current FN made Model 70, especially in comparison to the pre-64

[@rogerrule8195]

I have not reviewed one, I would love to see it.

[@Nick-wn1xw]

Having owned both I can tell you the new ones are every bit as good and in a lot of ways better than the pre-64 Model 70’s. Especially the newest of the new that are manufactured and assembled in Portugal. All new manufacturing equipment. Flawless in execution. If Jack O’Connor would be brought back to see the new ones he would be completely satisfied.

[@ianfrancisledesma4431]

Ruger m77 has controlled-feed feature also for a lesser price point.

[@ianfrancisledesma4431]

But of course it wouldn't be a model 70 :)

[@bransonwillis1672]

My 1952 Model 70 in 270 is NRA Fine.

[@sherimcguire5403]

mine is a 1940 in .270 beautiful rifle looks barely used

[@rogerrule8195]

That's a good one. Does it still have the pre-war safety on it? Thank you for commenting. Roger

[@u.p.woodtick3296]

I had one and traded it, kicked myself often about it.

[@wallyb873]

Thank you for the video(s). I spoke with Winchester recently about a model 70 that I own (1995 classic SS). In that conversation I spoke with their historian who was very knowledgeable. He mentioned that the reason for the 'change' in 1964 was partly due to quality issues and the use of too many stamped components. Would you mind expounding on this? Thank you, sir.

[@rogerrule8195]

The change in 1964 for the Model 70 went from controlled feed to push feed, because the controlled feeding system is much more expensive to make (back then, it took a lot of hand work). Winchester tried to keep the price point of this rifle modest, so they incorporated many changes that allowed for robotic and assembly line work. For some of their models, this included changing screws to rivets, machined parts for stamped parts, etc. The end result was that most of the models they changed were not well received by the buying public. The changes showed up looking cheap compared to the guns they made before then. This covered most of their models and it was over a period from about 1958 to 1965. The only two left that they didn't change were the Model 12 and 21 but the prices for those two sky rocketed.

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you Wally, There is not enough room here to cover that. It is covered very well in my book. I'll try a short version: Basically, in the latter years of the 1950s, the Winchester company was looking for ways to build all their guns easier with less hand work. The easier ways they came up with, were considered a large decrease in quality by most gun buffs. Instead of keeping the quality high and charging for it, the factory chose to keep the price point the same and lower quality. The new classics have overcome this.

[@mikebailes172]

I know this is an old video, but is there any way you could address the availability of the pre-64 M-70 in the .308 caliber? I know someone who has one but no documentation for providence.

[@edwardabrams4972]

Just look up the serial number and it will tell you what year it is! And if you can take a picture of it to show a gun smith to make sure it looks original and check the bolt serial number to make sure it matches the rifle snd check the bolt face for condition and that all the gun parts are there like the front shroud on the sight and that the rear sight is all there and that rear butt plate is in good condition and the stock is factory and not aftermarket

[@four4bman979]

H Roger, I recently found a very nice 1955 Mod 70 in 30-06 in lightly used condition. I'd give the blueing about 99% and wood is excellent with a little wear for $1195. Just wondering if I should keep as investment or use it. After all, time is marching on and not sure if parts would be available should something breaks. Anyway, great video and like your analysis. Bring on more!!!!

[@rogerrule8195]

Use it! But take care of it.

[@adaleparker1956]

Maybe this is time to expand the factory or build another. Sounds like a world of opportunity.

[@rogerrule8195]

I suppose that will always be a possibility.

[@jacklorraine8052]

Sir I have your book and admire your attention to detail however i saw no mention of a factory custom M-70 in 300 Wheatherby. The bbl is stamped 300 Wheatherby distinctly with no over stamps. It is reputed to be owned by a well known hunter who had it restocked in burnt maple. This had the initials inside of a great stock guy whose name escapes me, I think it was H. Henley. Anyway with that much effort and expense, I think it just may be factory made. Any comments would be appreciated. Thank you Sir. Jack Lorraine Canastota NY

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you Jack, I appreciate your kudos for my attention to detail.

[@jacklorraine8052]

@@rogerrule8195 Thanks for the response Sir, I would like to know if Winchester made a custom 300 Weatherby Thank You . Jack

[@Nick-wn1xw]

All my push feeds will feed even upside down. Every time. That said I still prefer controlled feed.

[@rogerrule8195]

Yes, some of the newer push feeds are not as gravity dependent. There are still more benefits for having controlled feed which is why you still prefer them: smoother operation, more positive extraction, etc.

[@johntabor2619]

I'm about to buy my first bolt action. Win mod 70 pre 64 30-06

[@rogerrule8195]

John, if you read my previous answer to you, I think you have chosen the best example for your first. Mine was a .270, but I soon followed it with a .30-06.

[@JuvenalGonzalez-dl5vq]

Tengo un modelo 54 y tres modelo 70...accion pre_64.....les he cambiado cañón porque fueron de mi papá. Y el uso los dejó un poco desgastados...... Soy armero y hago todo tipo de trabajos en armas de fuego

[@rogerrule8195]

Sorry, I do not speak Spanish.

[@mitchself1823]

We used these as sniper rifles in the army and the corps.

[@rogerrule8195]

Jim Carmichael of Outdoor Life had told me that.

[@Tut4655]

I have a pre64 model 70 -270 WCF .left handed #136318 with a SWAROVSKI OPTIC HABICHT 3-9x36ANOVA Scope. just wondering what the value is.

[@rogerrule8195]

I cannot give you a value. A good way to assist you in this is to watch pre-64 Model 70s on GunsInternational.com

[@trevorlock3615]

So is a 1947 considered pre war or a transition model 70?

[@rogerrule8195]

It should be but the real test is comparing its key parts with the Type II components as shown in my book. Thank you for your inquiry

[@johntabor2619]

What's the average price of a pre 64 model right now

[@rogerrule8195]

Too many variables to give you a straight answer. Caliber, condition, rarity, and age of rifle. I would advise you to log into GunsInternational.com and check the Home categories which reduces your search down to Winchester Model 70 pre-64 rifles only. Then scan the list and compare prices. You can even change the list to lowest price to highest price or in the search, you can specify a lowest price and highest price range. My guess is a Standard Rifle in 30-06 with average wear made in the mid- 50s would come closest to the answer of your question. Thank you for your input.

[@johntabor2619]

thank you Roger. mine is 1949. I'm missing the rear sight though? got any laying around? thanks for all your info MR Rule

[@Joetrout]

I have a 49 .270 have questions on it. Where could i contact you to share some photos. Would like some help and info on it? Thanks

[@rogerrule8195]

[e-mail]

[@rogerrule8195]

Hi Joe, You can best reach me by my email address, [e-mail] You can also send photos to that address.

[@Joetrout]

Roger Rule thanks

[@mikewarner2285]

What's a 22 hornet worth?

[@rogerrule8195]

Hi Mike, the question is too general. The value depends on which style, barrel length, and most of all, condition. I would suggest you go to GunsInternational.com and sort by Winchester pre-64 Model 70 and refine your search with caliber 22Hornet. You'll get an idea of what sellers are asking for.

[@mikewarner2285]

@rogerrule8195 it's call a translation model 24 inch barrel

[@marcogram1216]

Today, thanks to the previous overzealous collectors, the working man that would like a decent model 70 to shoot also, pays through the nose.

[@rogerrule8195]

But, isn't that true for any great rifle which becomes a collectible because it is a great rifle? Roger

[@Nick-wn1xw]

Isn’t that the case with EVERYTHING that becomes highly collectible??

[@kk6aw]

Anyone know what a pre 64 m70 is worth

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you for your inquiry. The value depends on many factors: condition, originality and rarity. Some configurations are rare and some calibers are rare.

[@johnbuck6685]

There’s only one special gun pre 64 model 70 the rest are a joke

[@rogerrule8195]

Thank you for being an advocate.

[@user-nf7sz6st8x]

Blah, blah, blah, blah