Special Investigation: How scientific is the Zoe app?

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Professor Tim Spector was one of the “winners” of the Covid era: his ZOE symptom tracker app accrued millions of users during the pandemic.
Now he has pivoted back to his true passion, gut health, and taken many of his followers with him. Endorsed by celebrities such as Davina McCall and Carrie Johnson, the new version of the ZOE app promises a personalised nutrition plan and comes with a glucose blood monitor usually used by diabetics. It is proving hugely popular, with over 100,000 subscribers paying up to £600 in their first year - and a further 300,000 on the waiting list.
It boasts all the hallmarks of a scientific endeavour, with endorsements by world-leading experts and numerous studies. But how convincing are its claims?
Deborah Cohen, Newsnight’s former Health Editor, and Margaret McCartney, a GP, undertook a forensic investigation for UnHerd and found that ZOE’s scientific foundations aren’t as strong as they would have you think…
Read the full investigation: unherd.com/2023/10/we-need-to...
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// TIMECODES //
00:00 - 01:32 - Introduction
01:32 - 04:05 - Deb Cohen explains what the Zoe app is and what it claims to do
04:05 - 07:01 - Cohen tells us if the app is worth the ‘expensive’ label it holds
07:01 - 12:44 - How did Tim Spector become an investor and shareholder in such an expensive business?
12:44 - 19:40 - Is the technology appropriate and accurate for healthy people?
19:40 - 25:43 - Have there been studies to show us that Zoe really works?
25:43 - 32:50 - What are the limitations and disadvantages of constantly recording this data?
32:50 - 33:36 - Concluding thoughts
#UnHerd #ZoeApp #TimSpector

[@SAS-vx1jk]

My husband and I both started Zoe on May 2nd. Wore the libre freestyle glucose monitor for only two weeks. Exceptionally interesting as you can test different foods and see where you might have a problem. Afterwards i was able to change the way i eat. Log foods for only five minutes a day. Cook food from scratch which isn't difficult. Use common sense. Both of us lost weight and feel a lot better. My husband stopped after 3 months as he didn't need more help.I still do Zoe as i have been more motivated than any previous diet. So for me, i am now not pre diabetic, confirmed by my doctor, and at 72 years old not on any meds so very happy with that. My husband at 76 not on any meds either. There is absolutely no need to be obsessed by any of the Zoe diet or advice

[@amykeever8527]

I totally agree! We are plant based eaters and the knowledge Dr B has given us in his books have only benefited us! There seems to be a real agenda of agencies that are backed by the meat and dairy industry to not want this information out!

[@llinosmetcalf5028]

A little harsh to criticise Zoe for using blood sugar monitors noted for being inconsistent in their readings, whilst acknowledging that that very same bit of kit is a lifesaving device for diabetics, inconsistent or not. I think most of us using Zoe who have an ounce of intelligence, realise we are funding further research - but benefiting from previous research at the same time.

[@joytekb]

Considering how long and how expensive are drug tests ,not do much.

[@susydyson1750]

it's a shame that people living as far a as i am cannot benefit from any of this as all of the podcasts are full of very interesting info!

[@Artofcarissa]

Couldn’t it be argued that diabetics wearing blood sugar monitors has much more obvious results than a person who doesn’t have diabetes? Like I imagine someone who produces enough insulin wouldn’t have extreme blood sugar spikes

[@simonpajger1331]

And it is especially harsh (or even unfair) to criticize Zoe because "the same meal can give very different sugar responses depending on circumstances". Did you listen to anything they say about these sugar spikes? They not only know about this, they are actually using this! I do not use their app or glucose monitor, but my acne is gone just by applying a few tips from their podcasts.

[@angelahorsburgh9954]

I feel this ‘forensic investigation’ is a joke. She has represented so many aspects of the Zoe health programme inaccurately. There is no constant monitoring. The CGM is only worn for 14days to gain initial information to base nutrition guidance upon. The other aspects; blood fat regulation and the make up of the gut microbiome are equally important and there is no ‘monitoring’ here, only an initial test. No foods are forbidden or excluded. You can eat whatever you want but to improve your overall score you are encouraged to add things like protein, fat or fibre and are given advice on how to do that. I have lost weight, gotten off HRT and am sleeping so much better with way less anxiety. I would recommend the Zoe programme. Best to try it before you trash it in my opinion.

[@Fuzzfooger]

I watched a lot of this companies podcasts and was on the cusp of signing up, the thing that gives me pause is that i am beginning to see really obvious common sense themes to the advice issued. I would be curious how personalised the prescriptions actually end up being? Does eveyone end up getting very similar 'common sense advice' that is largely understood already. eg: eat more plants, eat fresh rather than processed crap, eat more fiber etc. I would hate to spend so much money and then be told a bunch of stuff I largely know already...

[@cwantuch]

I read all of the Tim Spector books and follow the Zoe channel, although NOT a member. I am constantly impressed by his honesty to admit when he was incorrect when the evidence show otherwise, as well as when he is speculating, needs more experimentation and so on. This “investigation” seems more like confirmation bias to find fault with Zoe. I never had the impression Zoe was pushing their solution has anything but flawed and needing more data. Which is why I did not sign up but I will still follow the channel and a lot of their advice in general.

[@cwantuch]

@@Fuzzfooger- exactly why I never signed up but I do find their advice intriguing and common sense as you mention.

[@dojohansen123]

It's great that you've had a good experience so far, let's hope it stays that way. Not to be a killjoy, but it is prudent to keep in mind that almost any initiative that anyone embarks on to improve their health typically yields good results in the short term, at least as measured by subjective self-assessment, but this is also seen in many easy-to-measure aspects of health like weight, blood pressure and so on. The many testimonials therefore simply do not constitute strong evidence that the method works. Today Zoe presented the results of their large randomized controlled trial, and although it is of course a problem that the same people have a money-making machine AND are doing the assessment of whether it does good things for users (other than taking away their money), this should be the first good strong evidence so far that the method works. RTC is the gold standard for establishing causal relationships, and unless they are engaged in fraud, it does make me a bit more convinced that they are onto something more than a way to make an awful lot of money for themselves. Still, in my view it is very sensible to withhold judgement and let other scientists do their reviews and then the various new studies conducted by other parties that this research will undoubtedly spawn. It is fine to join Zoe and decide to trust your gut about whether it works for you, but here, the question posed is how scientific is it really, and it really is a very different question from "should I do it?". If your goal is to put your resources to where they do the most good, you should clearly give it to one of the many good charities that can save a thousand lives for much less than the cost of prolonging your own by a year, but that is a discussion that goes way beyond what is true and not about optimal human nutrition...

[@amykeever8527]

I totally agree !!!

[@chrisgibbons3877]

I find it quite amusing that Tim Spectre calls people who spend £20 a year on Vitamin D gullable but wants to charge £600 a year for a service with unproven value.

[@angeladawn805]

😂😂😂😂😂😂 you're right

[@nickturnock3369]

He has a blanket aversion to dietary supplements but vitamin D is not a dietary supplement, it is a UV light supplement. You cannot get enough vitamin D from a balanced diet, you need either exposure to sunlight or supplements. In the winter you cannot get enough sunlight. Its hard to take anything he says seriously if he can't grasp this.

[@clovermark39]

Yes I’d rather put my money on vit d a proven benefit that this system that is being heralded as great. And good by all these celebrities. I don’t trust them or it.

[@donquixote3927]

It wouldn’t be anything to do with financial gain on his part would it? I watched several doctors and scientists, especially during the Covid crisis such as Malcolm Kendrick, Suneel Dahnd, Anthony Daniels, John Campbell yet Spector just seemed to waffle about this Zoe app thing. Worryingly, it seemed to have some government backing.

[@davehollin6477]

The whole thing stinks to me

[@bryonystimpson7562]

I'm currently on the Zoe programme and have a couple of challenges to this analysis. The glucose monitor phase is only 2 weeks. After that you actually do see other metrics on a daily basis in the app, and have targets for healthy levels of carbs, fats, protein and fibre. Also you suggest most people on the program are young, healthy adults - anecdotally (yes, I know), most of the people I have encountered in relevant Facebook groups seem to be older , many with prediabetes etc issues.

[@charlespaynter8987]

Several points 1. I’m on the program and at the 2nd stage of testing so I’ve explored the ideas for myself. At the heart of this is, it’s a giant experiment. There are now 50,000 people in it. Wait for the results- it’s too early to fully judge yet. There are lots of nuances to it but the overall thrust might well make a significant difference to our understanding of our health and wellbeing 2. What price health? I’d rather invest to find out. It seems to me that it’s better to put money into experiments to find out rather rely on previous dietary ideas that are being shown to be flawed or only part of the story. The health authorities really aren’t putting enough resources into this area or the notion of prevention of ill health linked to poor nutrition rather than cure. 3. Zoe isn’t a mantra because their main point is everyone is different and respond differently to food. It’s a series of pointers and suggestions towards how you can take control your own health and it’s an evolving process- it’s an experiment.

[@niknaksim]

I cannot see how this can be an experiment, its a company and it is invested in finding the answers that they are selling potential users. We learnt from this before - when Drs like Andrew Wakefield sold his fake study because he had created his own vaccine which would be the answer to what his fake study found..............

[@ScepticalWoman]

People are very quick to give away their personal health data these days without knowing who’s collecting/storing/using it and for what purposes

[@tbay101]

👏

[@raspberryleaf3741]

My thoughts too. Plus hugely expensive!

[@PhilWhelanNow]

I agreed to join the U.K. Biobank study on inception, ~20+yrs ago.. I’ve recently had a follow up set of scans, bloods, cognitive tests etc. all at no cost to me. I declined the request for access to GP info, so I’m very comfortable with the fact that I have contributed to - so far - over 6,000 published, peer reviewed papers. The data is all anonymised. I believe this answers most of your concerns, re U.K. biobank at least, but the commercialisation of health data does concern me too. I follow the results from Zoe via their podcasts, but wouldn’t dream of paying monthly for the continuous blood sugar monitoring & app for example.

[@nickturnock3369]

Yes. the tuest thing yoy'll ever read on a website is "We value your privacy"... in $$$

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

Quite so. Not to mention all that DNA data that has been collected by companies "helping" you do your family tree. People are actually paying to provide this information so they are not exactly giving it away! All OK if in the hands of benevolent leaders but we can all see the way the world is going, and when less benevolent folks are in charge of our lives, they've got a ready-made data base from which to control us. No thanks. I have sovereignty over my own body and long may that situation remain.

[@tashasgran]

I have been following the Zoe podcasts and changed my diet to cut out UPF’s (not that I ate much anyway), and now eat as much organic food as I can afford. . I wouldn’t use the app but am grateful for the ones that do as I believe it is a scientific study. Once investors are involved, they have to make money for them and I think Tim and Sarah speak the truth as they find out more about diet. As an 80 yr old, I feel much fitter since changing.

[@neilcorbett5057]

I'm on the Zoe programme (I'm a 76yr old male) and pre diabetic. I found the test results interesting but the main point for me is that it makes me think more clearly about what I eat and gives me lots of healthy meal ideas. I'd never thought much before about the general impact of high GI foods and ways to mitigate their effects. The Zoe app gives a lot of encouragement to eat a more plant based diet and I find it motivating. I like the short daily lessons and find them useful in understanding foods. Some simple ideas have crept into my diet and I'm sure a right, things like eating nuts instead of potato crisps as a snack or having a little dressed salad before my main meal. Easy to do but without Zoe I wouldn't have done that..As to the precise personal scores, well they're fun to look at but I don't obsess over them., but I'm sure they point me in the right general direction. What is has done for me is to be more aware of what foods contain and how generally stay on the good side. Is it worth £600? Only if you can easily afford it I would say. I don't regret it though, because it has motivated me to eat better.

[@mangiari]

Reading Tim's book might already have done exactly that also.

[@andrewnorris5415]

And the few wealthy people who can afford it are paying for the free videos which help inform and motivate many others. Health is important.

[@colinthompson2335]

You give the clear impression that the Zoe program just outputs glucose, gut and blood metrics for the users to worry over. Surely you know it starts with a fast, followed by a set muffin breakfast and lunch provided by them, so they can compare your readings to the rest of their user base, also split by age group. This is the basis of the report they send. The glucose monitor is only worn for 2 weeks and I found it fascinating to observe the glucose impacts of what I routinely ate, and then to change what I ate and see the changes in glucose that followed. Seeing these impacts, in near real time led me to reduce carbs in my diet, result being my hba1c dropping to 42 from 48, ie from pre-diabetic to nearly normal. Lastly did I detect a hint of disdain about Zoe’s stool sample gathering technique? Clearly you don’t know that this is usual for this kind of test, I’ve got my NHS cancer screening version to do this week, and it’s the same method, including the post, but without the “hammock” to catch the sample, which made it much easier than the NHS version.

[@michaeldillon3113]

I would really like to see Deborah to look at why it is that medical schools barely teach about nutrition and health . Dr Michael Moseley said he was disappointed that his son spent about the same time studying nutrition at med school as ge had - about 12 hours in a five year med course .

[@DELLRS2012]

Diet and nutrition is complicated and the role of a doctor is to refer you to a dietitian instead of being your sole source of dietary information.

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

@@DELLRS2012 II agree with Michael Dillon on this. I would add that modern medicine is based on treating symptoms rather than causes, and is acting on behalf of Big Pharma who are in the business of treating the symptoms of long-term chronic conditions (e.g. Type 2 diabetes) which are a cash cow for them - they are not interested in cures or prevention, but only in profits. The emphasis of medicine should be far more slanted towards the prevention of disease and one of the most important aspects of this is what you put in your body. You are what you eat. Most doctors have no idea about healthy diet, and mainstream nutritionalists aren't always on the ball with this either.

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

Totally agree. Please see my reply o DELLRS2012. I have heard that the amount of tuition on nutrition is even less than 12 hours, but 12 hours is horrific enough!

[@felixthekate4800]

​@@DELLRS2012they should still be more nutritionally informed that a fifth grader

[@SallyDipplemarketing]

Wow. That’s a bit gobsmacking

[@davidlee5580]

Would love to see these critiques put to Tim directly and hash them out, please make it happen!!!

[@davidlee5580]

One area of criticism she outlines, for example, is that the same meal can have different blood sugar responses from one week to the next. But this can easily be explained - sleep, exercise etc can have profound effects on blood sugar responses, Zoe talk about this all the time.

[@davidlee5580]

Personally I would be happy to be able to hypothetically avail of accurate readings of my body's responses to food and optimize my diet accordingly. Just because some more obsessive people may interact in an unhealthy manner with the technology doesn't mean it should be abandoned entirely

[@syddog44]

@@davidlee5580 she did say that in the experiment in America all the participants sleep, exercise and food intake was monitored and controlled.

[@nikeshsolanki829]

​@@davidlee5580this a goos criticism and should be posted in the main comments section.

[@daveuk1324]

It's clear to me that these presenters do not understand zoe. Very poor and superficial research.

[@gene8194]

I'm happy that you are promoting healthy skepticism. My question is whether we should have a level of healthy skepticism tovard the updatedness of the todays doctors. I'm wondering why it is a problem to collect samples and document and analyze them. Often the big questions are comming when you play around things what was not done yet. I am not invested in Zoe, nider participating in it. My issue with this kind of reports is, that if everyone would say that if we don't know if those data points mean anything, we would never get answers because we would never ask questions. So in my humble opinion we need to take risks to gain the benefits. People take the chance on their own. We might find out that Zoe is a scam or just a great tool to form scientific questions to answer in the future based on large scale observations.

[@niknaksim]

it is a problem for a company to collect evidence for a solution which people like Tim Spectre would make a load of money for it to confirm the very issue they are seeking out to find. See Andrew Wakefield for past history on this.

[@karenbaxter2318]

The best diet I have been on is one that removes all health and nutritional advice. 😂 Best thing I have ever done to reduce health anxiety and improve general psychological well being. Eat a balance of food groups, as natural as possible, start mediating and listen to your own body. There is just too much money and sudo science behind this industry for me to trust it anymore, I’m learning to trust myself. Good luck to all who break free. 🙏

[@christinerigden1403]

That's basically what Zoe says to people not on the program: make these sort of choices (they have hours of free information on KZbin), and listen to your body. You don't need to use devices.

[@edwardvanberckel4736]

Fear and uncertainty are the most succesfull marketing tools.

[@pandora8478]

No. Sex and greed.

[@edwardvanberckel4736]

@@pandora8478 I was refering to the medical sector. Not to my business :)

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

@@pandora8478 I agree with both of you!

[@skylineuk1485]

I’m on it and it has worked really easily for me, over a stone down with no hunger in 8 weeks. I was a fitness fanatic for 20 years but after my gallbladder came out and old age got me fitness wise and then the weight went up badly. Tried intermittent fasting and although worked it was not sustainable after 7 months of just being hungry. The science is fairly straightforward and even simple and was something I was well aware of BUT what I was not aware of was the foods I thought were good actually were massive blood glucose spikers and just how bad at clearing glucose and fat the lack of a gallbladder had made me. It should be pointed out you only wear the glucose monitor from 3 to 14 days at maximum. The main use is for the 2 muffin meals to track your response to glucose and a pin pick to test your blood fats all of which are STANDARD medical procedures.

[@xdude57]

Try omad diet, there’s nothing like that brotha. I eat one meal a day and never hungry

[@nunyabidness3075]

There’s a lot of denial in medicine of the effects of controlling insulin and blood sugar. Also gut biome effects are huge unknowns in medicine. I’d be more open to the denials when there was more and better studies. My good friend, a doctor, had plenty of chances to avoid type 2 diabetes. He failed because he refused to do anything beyond the most basic diet and exercise. He has lost his health refusing to believe anything except a calorie is a calorie.

[@RicktheRecorder]

Surprisingly, I found this one if the least convincing Unherd interviews. The argument seemed to be: medicine is complicated; we desperately need good science; we don't yet know whether this science is sound; therefore be sceptical about believing it. It is better to protect neurotic obsessives from anxiety than to try to find out about diet in giant observational studies? There may be a valid criticism of Zoe that it is overselling its promise, but no one is pretending that this is a double blind trial rather than a mass observational one. Spector doesn't pretend to know what the best microbiome looks like or how it can be reliably improved; he simply makes reasonable assumptions based on the science we so far have. Having very large databases on blood sugar spikes and range is useful data even if we don't yet know its significance. This sounded to me like a journalist trying to find a scoop.

[@ocratest]

They're just being contrarian as per usual. Nothing concrete in the investigation. Just cheap clickbait, thousands use Zoe = thousands of Unherd views.

[@skylineuk1485]

The Zoe app is basically telling you to eat your vegetables, that is its main takeaway. The glucose monitor you only wear for 3 to 14 days maximum so it is not constantly on your arm. I really wish one of them would have tried using it as that makes for better research.

[@dojohansen123]

I posted a comment on one of their podcast episodes trying to argue this point. It disappeared shortly after. I have never bought their thing, so I don't have precise knowledge of what their advice is, but I did borrow one of Spector's books at my local library, and have seen enough of their "interviews" (promotional material) to start becoming convinced that it really boils down to try not to eat a lot of ultra-processed foods, transfats, high-sugar tropical fruits and the like, try to eat as great a variety of foods as you can get your hands on, including nuts and legumes, and eat a lot more veggies than most people do today. But of course nobody will pay a lot of money over and over if they were clear that in practice, that's all there is to it. Hence all the science talk and the need to explain every detail to all of us, as if we don't simply have to trust the conclusions anyway (we are of course not capable of spotting the holes, if any, in their arguments). If it's too simple, nobody will believe it, but if it is super complicated, a lot of people will... We humans are weird in a deep way.

[@Crankyshooter1]

Thanks for this useful and questioning video. I’m a great admirer of Tim Spector’s work on diet. For years I had struggled with yo yo-ing weight. Then my NHS blood tests came back 18 months ago with raised LDL cholesterol and sugar levels. I found the free Zoe podcasts and the excellent book Food for Life really helpful. I got my LDL readings right down and my sugar levels are great now. Weight completely stable. Total cost of this £15. So no, I don’t think the app is necessary. But if a few celebs like Carrie want to shell out to support his work, that’s fine by me.

[@gmbs360]

What a treat it was to see that you've addressed the issue of the Zoe app. More content like this, please.

[@felipearbustopotd]

The foundation to health is not complicated.... Try to... Get enough sleep. Eat seasonally.... eat food that spoils. Avoid stress. Be active, does not mean going to the gym or being sporty. Get more natural light. Find your tribe, hang out with like minded individuals. As for the Zoe thing, I find the KZbin uploads informative. As with all information, take from it and adapt it so it suits YOU. Thank you for uploading and sharing.

[@EttoreBarbieri]

Amen 😊

[@Hickalum]

Can Zoe explain the 36,000 excess deaths this year … Real people gone forever. Can Zoe explain the doubling of approved Personal Independence Payments this year, compared to 2016-2019? That is government numbers for people who CANNOT work due to sickness.

[@LSD04]

Deadly Covid or climate change is my guess

[@excel04]

I'm surprised to hear that PIP intake has only doubled, especially considering the figures for those with Long Covid. Anecdotally I've seen renewal claims taking about 6 times longer to process. When I've asked why I've been told it's due to 'staff shortages' or the ubiquitous explanation of 'backlogs' due to the pandemic.

[@Hickalum]

Latest from Government, in response to a question from Ed Davey, the number of patients that had to wait 62 days after an urgent suspected cancer referral (with a decision to treat) has grown from 38,083 in 2020/2021 to 70,929 in 2022/2023. This is an 86.2 percent increase.

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

Totally agree. This is the hugest elephant in the room ever. Nobody is addressing it - except perhaps Andrew Bridgen MP. Every time he speaks in the Commons, look at the vast numbers of MPs in attendance (Not).

[@melmo4660]

At zoe you only use the glucose monitor for 14 days. After that you get a full report from zoe...so it isn't really for the individual to interpret...they get a report from zoe based on their readings of 2 weeks. Zoe also advises that health is a lot more than just blood glucose, so the information is given. Zoe also makes it clear that blood glucose can differ from day to day due to stress levels, sleep etc. I don't understand the criticism here. I do agree that zoe is too expensive

[@suem5361]

I agree the app is expensive (especially once you have finished the “lessons”) but my understanding from Zoe is they don’t want people to get hooked on it - rather to retrain themselves then wean themselves off the app. In terms of the the testing - there’s a fair bit you get for the cost. I joined as I have an interest and have been generally impressed tho like most things it’s not perfect. They are constantly trying to improve the app to make a complicated approach simpler to follow, and to incorporate new science. I agree it’s important they take a scientific approach to assessing whether the individual factors within Zoe nutrition are better than a control so I might ask a few questions about that as many of us want to know we are part of a genuinely scientific study

[@judithcressey1682]

Loss of sense of smell and taste have always been features of influenza and are not peculiar to 'covid'.

[@offshoretinker]

Tim Spectre has always come across to me as a chancer. App will be used by the worried well with more money than sense.

[@TerryMurrayTalks]

Is it modern snake-oil for the middle class, using technology (for analysis and feedback) to promote common sense habits like, good diet, exercise and avoiding bad health choices?

[@dealwithitsloth]

Bang on the money.

[@TaylorTiree]

Well according to Tim Spector his normal breakfast of wait for it……… porridge spiked his blood sugar. Thank heavens he found that out he now eats Yoghurt with kefir (?) and nuts, phew what a relief 😅

[@commonwunder]

TerryMurrayTalks There are no 'healthy individuals'... unless they make all of their meals from scratch. How many people do you know have the time and/or money to do this? All ultra process foods contain nothing of what they did sixty years ago. The working poor consume nothing but cheap food industry waste products and chemical approximations of expensive ingredients. The giant food manufacturers are getting rich from cutting costs. Common sense has nothing to do with it. The population innately trust the food-stuffs the 'food industry' produce. Which the food industry ignored for their relentless greed.

[@allencoward5282]

I would always take my scepticism with a pinch of salt…

[@spiritusinfinitus]

The fact that Zoe chooses to continue advertising despite already having such a large waiting list tells you exactly what the underlying motives are. (It's not science)

[@andybrice2711]

To play Devil's Advocate: Maximizing their data-pool and their revenue could both help them do more rigorous research sooner. So aggressive advertising doesn't necessarily imply dishonest intentions.

[@felipearbustopotd]

In capitalism the price should come down. No doubt they see this as a cash cow, that isn't going to mooove onto pastures new.

[@robinwright531]

I signed up a few weeks ago and will get mine in December. So not sure about the waiting list being as big as claimed.

[@felipearbustopotd]

@@robinwright531 Any chance of an update when you get your results?

[@andreanewman9104]

Zoe was great during covid. I went to sign up for the health monitoring but terminated the application when they asked me what sex I was 'assigned' at birth. At that point I realised they weren't credible scientists.

[@williammorris7279]

The absolute same for me! I just could not bring myself to answer that question. I do still watch their podcasts, but with growing scepticism, especially because some of the recent advice has been contradictory (e.g. Tim Spector being completely against mouthwash, but a guest oral health expert on a subsequent episode recommended it).

[@jimnewtonsmith]

I don’t understand that comment as there were actually three options on gender - which is quite common in the public arena now.

[@sarahsue42]

@@jimnewtonsmith 50 shades of gender but 2 sexes OBSERVED and recorded at ( or before) birth

[@mikethebloodthirsty]

He used the covid pandemic as a tool to boost his profile, I saw Timmy on mainstream TV recently along with possibly my least favourite media person the patronising Dr Hilary Jones. I don't think the same will happen with DR John Campbell somehow.

[@DELLRS2012]

@@williammorris7279why would Tim Spector make any dental recommendations ?!? That is speaking out of competence and is not ethical best practices.

[@jancutler2299]

My general approach over the years, having read a lot about diet, is to eat quite a lot of plant foods plus meat, fish, eggs, dairy, and I don't agonise about food. I enjoy eating. I am slim and healthy, and over 70. I'm not interested in testing or monitoring generally. I think it creates anxiety and over-medication.

[@susiegreaves7283]

Jan...so similar. Over 70. Concerned about eating healthy fresh food all my life and came to a very simple conclusion...lots of raw fruit and veg, try to eat organic and don't eat processed food (or rarely). But mostly as you say all this testing and anticipating illness is counterproductive. Just makes people neurotic and stressed. Just get out and have a good walk!

[@Yelluz]

Absolutely right. It's not difficult to know how to eat healthily, and paying money to shysters who say that they have the answers to make people healthier in exchange for an annual fee is a bit silly really. Mind you, people love being told what to do without the need to think for themselves (see, C19 nonsense 2020-22.)

[@tanyapedwards]

Tried it and I am cancelling in month 1 its just unrealistic. Still unsure what part of the diet is tailored to me individually. The only thing worth paying for is the cgm and the tests. The actual diet itself is just telling you what you already know and is also totally unrealistic every single meal they suggest has to be cooked from scratch and uses food items that take forever to cook e.g steel cut oats have to be soaked 12 hours before, Pearl barley takes 45 mins to cook. If you have all the time in the world to focus your entire life on your diet, cooking, prepping and shopping for the food they suggest then go for for it. In hindsight I would just invest in the cgm and monitor my blood sugar reactions then make my own meal planner using the results. The actual zoe plan is a waste of money in my opinion.

[@tanyapedwards]

The so called personalised bit are called gut boosters and gut suppressors basically just a list of fruit, veg nuts and seeds = good processed food = bad. Hardly personalised or revolutionary is it.

[@sarahjackson3550]

Aren't Zoe creating scientific data on populations to share publicly. I would trust their studies compared to drug companies. Eating fermented foods to help your gut is not going to cause a glucose obsession, nor is avoiding ultra processed food. I am a bit disappointed with this "scientific' analysis by UnHeard.

[@melmo4660]

I agree. The criticism was very superficial and failed to mention all the detailed and nuanced health advice you can receive from zoe. I don't think you need to sign up to get that advice, as it is freely available online, but I think it is a good tool to educate people on healthy nutrition

[@angelahorsburgh9954]

Totally agree. The criticism here is uncalled for and their understanding of Zoe seems dubious at best. There is much more to Zoe than just the CGM which is only worn for 14 days. More fascinating is the window into what is going on in your gut.

[@patrycja2696]

I will not trust their studies. Whatever will come out of it will not be a true science! The harm of Zoe is that people will not change basics! Long-term! To be healthy one need to eat low carb heavy meat local wholefoods seasonal nutrient dense diet first, exercise - look at NHS guidelines how much, sleep well, be in the sun outdoors a lot etc Noone wants to do it. So they pay for the stupid app

[@patrycja2696]

Plus: at this stage all the biom and viom (yes! Lol) is only a pseudoscience! They know shit about it and will "know" the same amount for very long time. While you pay them lol

[@Jannette-mw7fg]

Can UnHerd please do a video about the WHO treaty? It wil be the end of a free world if it is implemented!

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

I agree. This is a vitally important topic and everyone seems to be asleep about it.

[@hankthor815]

Thought this was a very reactionary report. I think some concerns were valid, but maybe best thing to say is that this may add to the knowledge base for microbiome, metabolic health and personal responsibility

[@Vroomfondle1066]

Politically motivated critique?

[@hankthor815]

@@Vroomfondle1066 quite possibly. I was thinking the same, but prefer to give benefit of the doubt concerning their personal and monetary motivation.

[@scuba453]

Seems like a great way to collect data (DNA?) and even have people pay for this. In a few years they sell the business for a ton of money, maybe a Chinese buyer will be interested?

[@CL-he4jz]

data is the new gold

[@Above-The-Clouds]

The glucose monitor is only worn for 2 weeks. How does that make people obsessed with their glucose? 🤔

[@NickLanng]

I was looking at my app religiously until I saw that a home-made beef stew and a packet of milky bar buttons had exactly the same glucose spike. At that point I deemed it useless. I'm yet to see what the app does for me outside of the glucose monitoring, but if it just tells me to exercise more, cut out UPFs and eat more plants? Well... I already know that.

[@MrBlaxjax]

Did the beef stew include a largish portion of potatoes? I’m only asking because for me potatoes are ridiculously glycemic. Paradoxically sugar isn’t necessarily glycemic and that’s because the fructose content is metabolised by the liver. Ie fructose doesn’t go into the bloodstream and cannot be measured on a CGM. Assuming a milky bar is made using sucrose it would quite likely be a little less glycemic than a beef stew with a fair portion of potatoes. The sucrose in a milkybar is 50% glucose, 50% fructose. Basically only half of the sugar content will register on a CGM. However all the potatoes in a beef stew will and if you are like me you’ll eat maybe 3 or 4 large potatoes. That’s a lot of glycemic product! The milky bar though very sweet contains a lot less glycemic material and partly because the measured weight of glucose (ie the glycemic stuff)within the milky bar is likely quite small. Probably less than 30g.

[@NickLanng]

@@MrBlaxjax there were a few new potatoes in it so that might be it. I have my Zoe test results now and the app actually seems genuinely useful. I think it’s clear now that the glucose monitor is a gimmick designed to hook you in (hence why it’s optional) and the real value comes from the cookie tests.

[@MrBlaxjax]

@@NickLanng well I was interested because I went through a period where my annual blood test had me marked as prediabetic. I found that by reducing sugar and carbs that I was able to wrestle that measure down to ‘normal’ ie not diabetic or prediabetic. But I was actually astonished the effect that potatoes have on my blood sugar as shown on a cgm.

[@megankwisdom]

While I understand the impulse for personalized nutrition because there is so much information out there and it's confusing, the vast majority of people's health problems would be solved by eating real, whole foods, cutting out sugar, wheat, and seed oils, getting enough sleep and exercise, and cutting out drugs and alcohol. It's really simple. You don't need expensive gadgets to be healthy.

[@KenH-63]

The "expensive gadget" is only worn for two weeks and gives individuals to see how they react to specific foods. If you buy into the idea that adjusting your diet a bit (I have) to avoid severe spikes in blood sugar may just simply be good for metabolic health (and I moved from pre diabetic to "normal") What's wrong with avoiding pre-diabetes in the first place. ...I accept it's not affordable for many.

[@eddjcaine]

My problem with this is that it is very clear that everyone responds differently to different advice, and bread (wheat) has been a staple of humanity for thousands of years. You making this blanket observation, while we’ll intentioned and probably right for a lot of people, doesn’t mean it will be right for all people

[@TP-om8of]

“What is Zoe? Zoe is an app that has changed the way I eat breakfast every day” AAARRGH!!!!

[@CL-he4jz]

​@@Syntheticus834Best comment 😂

[@almor2445]

I felt a lot better during the 2 months in which i tried to follow my zoe program. However i say tried because it was impossible. My results claimed i was either eating too much sugar, too much fats or not enough veggies. I was eating feta salad with nuts and olive oil, which is all healthy stuff and not scoring 80. So i gave up.

[@gizmocrystal]

Im finding this....I add a couple of lamb chops and bam, my score goes down to 40...Never mind the 10+ friuts and veg nuts and kimchi i had with it! you really need the money to eat this way.

[@almor2445]

@@gizmocrystal zoe has a weird fixation with meat. There is absolutely nothing unhealthy about the occasional lamb chop.

[@gizmocrystal]

@almor2445 I think I'm going to call it a day too. I was losing weight but adding all these bloody seeds and nuts in trying to get my fibre up has made me gain a few pounds too. They then tell me I'm have too much unhealthy fat(meat) in my diet🙄 I am also worried about my Cholesterol which has been excellent. Thanks for your comment, everyone was raving about it but its not sustainable for me.

[@almor2445]

@@gizmocrystal it's a good base to work from but it's way too strict

[@kipling1957]

I do think she’s overthinking this. If there’s a device that indicates that you’ve eaten food with a high glycemic index causing a rapid BG spike, that’s got to be good. Humans respond well to proximal feedback in order to change behavior.

[@equatorialjourney4478]

🙄….. Common sense shouldn’t cost 600 pounds a year . The snake oilers peddling products to the gullible definitely understand how ‘ humans respond to any sort of feedback’ …. Cultists get rich exploiting human vulnerabilities

[@cazmzy5524]

The minute Tim spector got on the vaccination band wagon and poo pooed the power of Vitamin D on Dr Campbell channel anything he was involved in I would scrutinise with a fine tooth comb

[@annteather2826]

I seem to remember Tim saying that it is better to get your vitamins from natural sources, eg dairy, oily fish & sunlight for vitamin D. You don't need to be exposed to that much sun to benefit, so going out at brightest part of day, even in winter is good. Cheeses are beneficial sources as are oily fish.

[@katie8325]

Oh my god. Get off the internet and give your tin foil hat a polish.

[@FionaWestbury]

Well said! I'd go with Dr Campbell any day...he REALLY knows his stuff.

[@unahorgan6014]

Personally I love the Zoe podcast and as a nurse I would love a bit more insight about my blood glucose and microbiome as they are basic keys to future health. However I can see that many people may get a bit obsessed with this and not see it as just part of improving future health. I definitely feel a lot better since I started following their recommendations.

[@niknaksim]

As a nurse do you not see how it is inappropriate for a company to sell the idea that this is all a big experiment, where they make loads of more money if they find they have the answer?

[@stevewahls8434]

Somebody needs to do the research. If a group like Zoe doesn’t do it then a group like Pfizer will. I think the study would be much better done by Zoe. They added 100 more gut bugs to their list 1/2 good and 1/2 bad recently and that it a good indicator of how incomplete the research is so far but how else will the information become known?

[@ccampbell1117]

Tim Spector , i thought he was one of the good guys when the covid fiasco arose but he pivoted away from being someone who seemed trustworthy to one of the people with a vested interest in it , that was my view and I stopped watching his output on Utube . This is fascinating and I knew nothing of this , it answers a lot of my concerns .

[@jez49647]

I used to watch his covid updates until he started pushing the first booster and proclaming that "they were always intended to be three jabs" or something to that effect, which is certainly not what i remember when they first rolled out the vaccines.

[@jrd33]

He always pushed very hard for people to get vaccinated and boosted. Make of that what you will.

[@100vg]

Plus, if not stated directly already, it's only measuring a Monetary Class of people in the range of just being able to afford the higher level program to well above. I say the higher level program because the lower level does not offer nearly as much, but even the lower level is only for a certain Monetary Class who can and are willing to afford it.

[@whorn9295]

They want to normalize people wearing monitoring/tracking devices

[@grantp7975]

It's good to remember the old adage "What gets measured gets done". Just like "social mobility", the direction of travel or change is rarely, if ever, discussed.

[@aslau3820]

My thought is that the more people get more vested in their health the better. As long as Zoe and similar organizations don’t prevent/advise people from see their own health providers there seems not to be much harm. As we learned from Covid, there is no medical/scientific consensus on anything…there can be a study proving any conclusion you want. If we waited on science, we would all still be hiding under our beds sheltering in place.

[@CANFilms1]

It’s a shame Deborah Cohen wasn’t asking any questions when she advertised the “science” of lockdowns

[@davidhoban3825]

She did over mask wearing though. Ms Cohen said on Twitter: 'We had been told by various sources [that the] WHO committee reviewing the evidence had not backed masks, but they recommended them due to political lobbying.'

[@raireva4689]

FREDDIE NAILED IT....IMHO this is just marketing together with goverment invading our shinking private space. We have redline it and keep BOTH at bay or else !!

[@fabienpaillusson7390]

​@davidhoban3825 still, there was zero empirical evidence from anywhere that lockdowns were overall beneficial.

[@eddjcaine]

I enjoy the scepticism of this - I do think we should be sceptical of all things. However, the use of a continuous blood glucose monitor along with dietary advice has been available to diabetics for years now, and has helped people come off medication and control their symptoms, with help from doctors. The thing for me is that when you suffer from a dietary illness like obesity or type 2 diabetes, or are likely to do so in your future owing to your weight, there simply is no good advice out there. What doctors tell you is “eat healthily and exercise more” leaving the questions “what is healthy?” And “how much exercise is good?” floating in the air because, in general. NOBODY has the answers. As she said at the beginning of the clip - there can be no long term effective controlled test on nutrition. Then the gist of her argument against Zoe was “there has been no long term effective controlled test”. So basically, any nuitritional advice is based on anecdote and survey data, which as she says can be skewed by bias. For anybody with the real problem of overweight or diabetes or cardiovascular health problems, this kind of scepticism is quite unhelpful - the only useful advice being “try it and see if it works for you”. Zoe at least tries to meet this halfway by giving you insight into your own personal bodily response to your diet, which is as they rightly point out different for everyone, and as you point out, changeable. Either way I’ve gained no fresh insight here

[@SallyDipplemarketing]

I wanted to do Zoe because my sister is on it. However , I live in Europe and it’s not offered here. I found this interesting- and as I have recently discovered Jessie Inchauspé ( The Glucose Goddess) I have decided it is quite sufficient to follow her advice : she has drawn sensible conclusions from using a glucose monitor, ( she is a scientist) and has packaged those in a way everyone can use : free of charge, and no need to wear a glucose monitor. My sister says she has lost weight on Zoe although she didn’t want to and it sounded to me as if her personalised diet was over-restricted.

[@ropa2142]

The Zoe Ap advert with Tim Spector cut into this piece whilst I was watching!😂😂😂

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

It cuts into every single KZbin video I watch. Frankly, I'm getting fed up with it.

[@reneeshort2049]

1) Most people who change their diet will see changes - that's normal. Sustaining it over the long run for a positive result is a different matter. 2) In the world of social media - likes - joining - belonging - signing up - wanting to be part of the newest thing/app takes people further into the rabbit hole of being manipulated. Learn and use critical thinking skills. 3) Knowledge is good, but if you don't have expertise in an area, always follow up with an expert before taking drastic steps. That sounds like good advice. I could go on because I've met too many people who made life changes based on junk science that put them in the hospital, but I think I made my points.

[@kimberg-olsen81]

I'm a diabetic, and use Abbott glucose monitor. I never go far without my blood glucose apparatus, because the monitor is to unreliable... worst experience is 4 mmol/l difference between monitor and blood.

[@KV-io8to]

One of the biggest reasons the number on your CGM doesn't match your BGM is because the glucose from the food you eat actually reaches your bloodstream before it reaches the interstitial fluid where your CGM sensor sits. As a result there is a time lag between them. Hope that helps.

[@thenonexistinghero]

My main problem with this tech is that... everyone will be forced to use it in the future. And they will be forced to take certain medicines and whatnot. If you don't, you'll get a warning at first and if you consequently don't, you'll be flagged by your government and they will come into action to make sure you're a good obediënt little boy for girl. And I'm including adults with that because that's what your government will see you as... in fact, they already see you as children incapable of making their own decisions. Doesn't really matter if it works or not, just need to keep people drugged up so they can live their happy little slave lives without realizing that they are one. I read Brave New World by Albert Huxley when I was a teen and I immediately knew that this was the future that was going to be brought into reality in some way, shape or form once tech progressed far enough and systems were corrupted deep enough.

[@Lethesiana]

Yes exactly, I expected that aspect of it to be the thrust of Unherd covering it, rather than just a run of the mill ‘think before you buy’ piece.

[@ernstlalleman5989]

@@Lethesiana Hopefully they read your comment which will result in a follow up Special Investigation.

[@martin5504]

Like a smart meter for your body. Voluntary and innocuous at first then compulsory and controlling.

[@christinarichie6171]

Adolous and Julian Huxley. Their grandfather Thomas Huxley was Darwins handler. They are all intermarried as well. The Wedgwood and Galton families. Julian was the head of UNESCO after that 2nd World War/genocide. Adolous was involved in setting up Scientology as well in the early 30s in North Hollywood. Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Eric Blair= Orwell was tutored by them in 1917 in those "prestigious schools "..

[@CL-he4jz]

​@@christinarichie6171thanks! interesting. sp. Aldous*

[@sullivanrachael]

So the Zoe system is a piece of digital medical monitoring quackery. Just because a piece of technology CAN monitor blood glucose, doesn’t mean the data is useful to basically healthy individuals. So instead of the traditional approaches of teaching people to stop eating when they still feel a little bit hungry; people are being misled by poorly understood high tech. Hmm. Think I’ll keep listening to my body rather than start worrying about the ‘score’ given to me by a conputer, which may or not be giving scores built by sensors which may or not be reliable, given the blood flow rate to my skin or any other of many variables I may or not know of, let alone understand !!!

[@commonwunder]

@sullivanrachael There are no 'healthy individuals'... unless they make all of their meals from scratch. How many people do you know have the time and/or money to do this? All ultra process foods contain nothing of what they did sixty years ago. The working poor consume nothing but cheap food industry waste products and chemical approximations of expensive ingredients.

[@KenH-63]

They (cgm) are accurate enough to be prescribed by the NHS to be worn continuously by diabetics to assist in their control. So presumably not that bad for giving non diabetics at least an idea of what foods give a stronger sugar reaction.

[@eddjcaine]

“Stop eating when you’re still a bit hungry” is horrible advice, and not “traditional” at all - it’s maybe 80 years old now.

[@sullivanrachael]

⁠@@eddjcaine- clearly you haven’t understood that the body always wants more! One has to ‘listen’ and feed it carefully

[@rusticrye5413]

There are lots of real nutritional experts out there, who provide outstanding information and advice on every aspect of health, not only gut health. And it's FREE.

[@brianbanks2774]

And Zoe provide a vast amount of information for free, from people at the top of their field.

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

Interesting discussion. My advice (based on personal experience as well as a lot of personal research) is: eat a whole-food plant-based diet - eat the rainbow. Stop worrying about the minutiae and just provide your body with a broad-based, natural form of nutrition. Decades of research and the evidence of the Blue Zones bears this out. I have had numerous health issues in my life (I am now 70) and since adopting this lifestyle several years ago, I have felt better than I have felt for years.

[@skippy6462]

Agree with you. We changed to a whole food plant based diet without salt oil or sugar and feel the best we've ever been. 58 and 72 and enjoying healthy years. Joined the gym and started pilates is the cherry on top.

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

@@skippy6462 Great! This really works, doesn’t it.

[@privacytest9126]

I changed to a meat based diet. 58, slim, healthy and strong. Vegetarians always look sick to me after a few years. Bad hair bad teeth and overweight.

[@spiral-m]

same. Never looked back. Also for ethics and the planet - a no-brainer

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

@@privacytest9126 I agree with you, as far as it goes. I have known vegetarians who meet your description. You can be extremely unhealthy if you are not getting adequate nutrition - many vegetarians miss out on essential nutrients, and after all, you can be a strict vegan, existing on Oreos and Coca-Cola! However, what we are talking about here is a whole-food plant-based lifestyle. If you are eating whole, natural, fresh, unprocessed food from right across the plant kingdom - legumes, fresh green vegetables (esp. dark green), coloured vegetables such as peppers, nuts and seeds, fresh fruit (especially red and purple, rich in antioxidants), herbs and spices, unprocessed whole grains - the list goes on... your body is going to get all the nutrients it needs. This is without the harmful effects from, for example, animal fat and protein which have been proved to be damaging to the cardiovascular system, intensively-produced dairy products which contain hormones and antibiotics routinely administered to cows in order to produce milk continuously, highly processed foods such as seed oils and refined carbohydrates, etc. etc. You need to define your parameters. If you are eating high-quality grass-fed beef and non-intensively farmed animal products, it is not quite so bad, but you really don't need to eat any of that if you eat a complete whole-food plant-based diet which is the healthiest diet on the planet. For further information on this subject, I highly recommend visiting the site "Forks Over Knives," where you can also find the documentary movie of the same name, and many articles, recipes and meal plans. There has been a great deal of research in this area over many decades and the evidence is clear, but is often hidden from us because of the commercial interests of Big Ag and Big Pharma, hand in hand with governments and lobbying - follow the money trail.

[@householdone7559]

Thanks for telling us she was BBC but still is mainstream... It makes a massive difference to how i listen to this... i.e. i'm going to listen to it with more scrutiny than anything else because... frankly.. i don't trust MSM.

[@celiacresswell6909]

She demonstrates the similar skill set required for both good journalism and good science💪

[@CANFilms1]

It’s a shame she didn’t do such a thorough job during Covid

[@davidhoban3825]

​@@CANFilms1She did. It was her tweet that exposed the UN who did a u turn over masks due to political lobbying only. Ms Cohen said on Twitter: 'We had been told by various sources [that the] WHO committee reviewing the evidence had not backed masks, but they recommended them due to political lobbying.'

[@fabienpaillusson7390]

Double standard skepticism?

[@angelahorsburgh9954]

She seems very critical of something she hasn’t tried.

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1]

​@@angelahorsburgh9954Yes. Her errors in describing the process participants undergo using Zoe makes the validity of her criticisms dubious.

[@estherringthegack7671]

I would have thought Zoe could have priced the tests differently so as to be able to make it affordable for a broader section of society

[@sammavitae114]

If you add an "r " ( and a moderating shuffle) to zoe you get a reliability score of their "science ".

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

Lol! Nice one.

[@clairee.wright6136]

Okay so it’s interesting that other studies have found that glucose response monitoring gives different results depending on where on the body it’s used …. And also, that the same meal, on a different occasion can also elicit a difference in glucose responses. What they failed to discuss though, is that keeping glucose responses within a narrow range is an all round good idea. Years down the line peoples pancreases will thank them, and they may also be mitigating against the related constellation of other metabolic disorders that my mother is having to deal with.

[@youcancallmeana]

One can buy into this, or one may simply limit or cut out sugar, and I would predict similar results, without giving all of your most personal information to a corporation.

[@sharonmoore167]

Technology- a means of taking the most basic knowledge and making it as complicated as possible in order to extract loads of money from those who have to have the latest crazy trinket, often without real results.

[@connoroleary591]

Great analysis as usual from Unheard. Calm, reasoned and intelligent. In my own opinion, Zoe could be very helpful to a lot of people who find it difficult to manage their diet and weight. Even after hearing the well constructed arguments, i would certainly consider joining the app. Thank you.

[@lawsonspedding6136]

Not for me, control, knowledge theft, leave me alone ! I’m a carnivore, healthy, not obese, and with intermittent fasting, allowing my body to look after my health !

[@susanramen1615]

We diagnose FAR too late.Hyperglycaemia is so deadly. I’m not saying these devices are the answer, but it’s not worry for no reason if you are pre-diabetic which many are unwittingly. There’s a lot of nuance to this debate. Great points made in this though. Think is the kind of stuff the NHS should do so much better in terms of focusing on prevention, changing the crap in our supermarkets. The savings would be worth it, but I do know behaviour change is generally a big challenge.

[@ShoshiPlatypus]

Education is key. Both in the medical profession (high time they spent far more time teaching on nutrition and preventative medicine than on treating symptoms and managing chronic disease) and in the general population. The trouble is, even with the right information, people still continue with their bad habits and develop disease as s result - e.g. smoking, eating junk food. I don't believe in legislating to reduce people's choices (e.g. banning sugar in soft drinks etc.) - far too much Nanny State these days anyway - people should have the right to choose, but it should be an informed choice. I don't see Western medicine changing, though - they are in the pockets of Big Pharma who are more interested in profits than health. Chronic diseases such as Type 2 diabetes, requiring lifetime medication, are a cash cow for them and it is not in their interest to cut off this lucrative flow. It is interesting to invesigate who is funding the various published medical papers - in many cases this is Big Pharma, and the results are necessarily skewed. One has to develop a strong scepticism towards everything these days and do one's own research, and above all, where one's personal health is concerned, to use common sense - a commodity in short supply nowadays, I'm afraid.

[@susanramen1615]

@@ShoshiPlatypus not sure when you were at school last but in my opinion my kid has been educated plenty about healthy eating and exercise at school. Really not bad at all. I’m very into nutrition and prevention as a nurse practitioner too. Sadly more than education is needed. Heartbreaking but true. The bad food lobby has funded and pushed rubbish onto everyone’s plates. Brexit too.

[@honorburza9110]

Is it health anxiety or is it a good thing for people to be more vigilant about what they eat?

[@suesummers8813]

I’m glad someone is asking these questions about Zoe, I always wondered if it was just about making shed loads of money….

[@niknaksim]

I get so many Zoe adverts, I guess they are raising lots of money for that.

[@debbiewright8452]

Its hard to trust any of these scientists anymore

[@alexwr]

I'd only use one of those if I was sure that I was the only one with that data. If it's not open source, I'm not interested.

[@pamelajansson4785]

Freddie , this is all bollocks!

[@goodlookinouthomie1757]

Who else got the ZOE commercial halfway through this video?

[@jivekiwi]

I really enjoy the KZbin channel, Tim is a person who can't even be forced into making broad statements, who always cites studies and their limitations. As far as an educational channel goes, you can't do much better because Tim is always keeping it on a firm scientific base. Maybe they aren't perfect but compared to other educational channels who regularly cite studies but don't mention whether it was in a controlled setting or how large the group in the study is for example, I think they are setting a pretty high standard. After watching many of their videos, it's clear they actually have a pretty simple overall philosophy anyway.. eat whole foods, drink water, avoid processed food, regular exercise etc.

[@JudyProctor]

But they miss the main point of the underlying poisons in food - namely glysophates… why do more folk not know that if you track the history of agricultural pesticide production you get from Monsanto/Bayer back to Farben the German chemical company who worked on poisonous gases for use in warfare to use against pests and the Jews in the gas chamber…..,

[@neilcorbett5057]

No they don't miss that. Tim Spector frequently mentions the potential harm of agrochemicals in his podcasts@@JudyProctor

[@SallyDipplemarketing]

I agree. I can’t do Zoe as I am in Europe. I am not sure whether I would anyway. However I regularly watch their videos which contain very good health sense imo.

[@nicola4594]

Correction - the daily metric is a number Zoe gives you. The glucose monitoring is just the first 2 weeks. A lot of my friends are doing it, I won’t as I don’t believe the science is far enough along yet. If I had money to be burn, I’d do it for fun, it would be interesting to find out how I metabolise fat via their muffin (now cookie) test.

[@davidlee5580]

Waiting for so long for her to outline her grievances against Zoe and then she presents the idea that their studies are inaccurate because sugar responses to meals vary from week to week... Of course they do - sleep, exercise etc can have profound effects on blood sugar responses, Zoe talk about this all the time

[@syddog44]

I've been wearing one for a couple of years now as I'm a type one diabetic. I find it useful, are you saying I can't trust this machine as the numbers it gives are incorrect? I take insulin and eat according to what this sensor says. You've got me a bit confused tbh. I've been to diabetic clinics and they've checked my hba1c level and they do seem to correspond to what my sensor says. I think they work.

[@TaylorTiree]

I think people are sceptical of healthy people who don’t have a medical condition like Diabetes wearing one . Why would they need to? But for someone like you with Type One diabetes it is crucial, I hope you are reassured . I lived with someone for two years who was diabetic on insulin. Monitoring his blood sugar levels was part of his daily routine and like you said knowing how much insulin to take and eat is really important. Years ago when I was nursing our diabetic patients didn’t have these monitors to wear. Best Wishes.

[@syddog44]

@@TaylorTiree thanks for the reply. I wouldn't dream of wearing a sensor if I didn't have T1 diabetes, I don't like being attached to the matrix!. They do say that they aren't as reliable as the old finger prick test, but they are so much more convenient than pricking your finger all the time. They also give out an alarm when your blood sugars go low or high so it's extremely useful for me, but as I say healthy people wearing them is utterly pointless and slightly sinister.

[@angelahorsburgh9954]

Why would these monitors be accurate for diabetics but inaccurate for non diabetics. That makes no sense.

[@KV-io8to]

@@angelahorsburgh9954 They are used by the NHS to manage type 1 diabetes and thus are accurate. Search CGM and NHS and details will pop up. Zoe only uses it for 2 weeks you can't make accurate conclusions from that. Hope that helps

[@beepthesheep867]

​@angelahorsburgh9954 nobody has suggested that. The only difference is diabetics need to monitor their blood sugar and non diabetics don't. I'm a non diabetic and would never consider wearing one of these devices. Why would I need to? It is common sense that if I eat too much sugary food or exist on a high carb diet that my blood sugar would spike and my future health decline. The answer is to simply keep my sugar and carb intake low. Eat a healthy varied non processed food diet, keep moving and I can expect a healthy longer life. The issue is... Why would I want to share my private health data with a for profit organisation like Zoe? I'm already unhappy with the amount of private data harvested from me. I watched this video purely out of interest while trying to keep an open mind. I understand that the science is ambiguous due to other factors like stress and sleep. Then it happened... the algorithm showed me an advert for the Zoe app. I'm also trying to keep my stress and anxiety levels low too. However, that advert further backed up my doubts and absolutely made my blood boil! Zoe is simply health data harvesting and everyone needs to know that! There is absolutely no proven scientific benefit that the Zoe app has any health benefit for a healthy non diabetic individual. Edit/update: I would also add that if I were diabetic, my clinic would supply me with means of testing my blood sugar. So, I could also add, why would a diabetic need the Zoe app? Why would a diabetic want to share their health data with a for profit corporation? I certainly wouldn't. For this reason I'll never buy a smart watch either. I know my phone is monitoring my every move and keystroke. The difference is I can simply leave my phone at home or ignore it. Something I do regularly. Doing so is the only time anxieties are truly absent from my life. Some people would then add the "what if" something happens scenario to combat my statement. These people must want to live with perpetual worry and stress. Really, put down your stress reminding devices and learn to live. For life is a gift that comes only with a guarantee of death. Stop worrying about the death and enjoy living your life.

[@shaynealbert]

I've always questioned if Zoe brings their own personal bias into their recommendations eg On fitness, it's clear the panel do not like to lift weights with the lead giving humorous stories about his personal failure his personal trainer at the gym. Yet when guest are advising the benefits of resistance training specifically weight lifting where moderate effort is required , the Zoe team will belittle it to 'going for walks' or in short form call it a 'strenuous walking' . Another is on the consumption of meat for nutritional reasons yet when the lists of reasons why, they weight the personal moral beliefs of it; a view that should not be marred with nutrition.

[@eddjcaine]

I don’t think that’s true - actually there’s a podcast specifically on the benefits of resistance training, if I remember correctly

[@TaylorTiree]

KZbin is being flooded by these Zoe adverts, really annoying especially when random celebrities appear sticking the yellow monitors on their arms. The only people monitoring their blood sugars should be diabetics.

[@benk4088]

It’s funny, I’ve never seen an add for Zoe until this video

[@stanby2712]

a Diabetes is diagnosed by monitoring blood sugar b it’s presentation is “ silent” c its consequences are potentially (commonly) life changing and life threatening d the cost of long term management/ care to the NHS ( and therefore the taxpayer)is huge. Therefore, it is reasonable to suggest that every adult over 40 might benefit from monitoring their blood glucose.

[@hopelessatusernames]

​@@stanby2712 I agree, people could use it for a month just to learn what effect their regular foods have on blood sugar levels

[@bernardporter4589]

Intriguing to see the ZOE advert appear whilst watching this!

[@bjornagaintobywilde]

My doctor said i was pre diabetic. This is what prompted me to join the program.

[@casselskeep]

Re the criticism of the study design you just described a perfectly reasonably premise. The zoe app and "all its paraphernalia" is literally the intervention and the government leaflet the control. The suggestion that the control should some how be some other non specific version of the app just doesnt make sense. You arent comparing one version of the app to another, you are comparing it against the general population.

[@sulowx]

Hilarious, I got an ad for the Zoe App while I was watching this 🤣

[@gabymalembe]

Same for home blood pressure monitors: some people will find them helpful, and some won’t. Some people will become more worried about their health, and others less.

[@lindajames7759]

How amazing that we are so willing to give our power to anybody. What happened to looking after our own health? Wake up people.

[@richardharvey1732]

Hi Freddie, there you go again, the second time today for me to wallow in the comfort of your dulcet tones!. The description of the demographic that subscribe to the Zoe App is so refined that it makes any inference about other demographic has zero value in any scientific way. This does not mean that the people who do take part cannot benefit in any meaningful way just that no information about the population as a whole is generated. There is of course a very serious issue with the lack of any statistical value due to the lack of any control group and unavoidable confirmation bias. The mere fact that only those people in that demographic who are so motivated to take part suggests that they are already motivated to take care of themselves while others who could but do not are less motivated and therefore might be more negligent. I certainly do think that because this is a purely commercial operation the public health authorities should be keeping a very close eye on this and doing the careful scientific studies that are not profit driven. Cheers, Richard.

[@cathrynwood6072]

I think you've misunderstood the role of the glucose monitor in using the app/process. You only use it for 2 weeks at the beginning of the use of Zoe and do some experimenting with how food affects it, almost as something to do while you wait for your results. It's absolutely not the focus of the app or the process.

[@zetristan4525]

In the Himalayas, we use the Dzo app as effectively to keep track of our yaks.

[@pseudonayme7717]

😄

[@WesternMalaise]

Seems like we now only think and behave how we are told to by anyone who presents themselves as ‘an expert’ or a ‘consultant’. Paying for the privilege helps confirm its apparent validity in the eyes of the punter who is constantly looking for ‘authenticity’ and ‘the best they can be’, for themselves and the planet. No end of vulnerable, ‘caught-in-the-headlights’ clients queuing up, and no end of smiling therapists with credit card machine to hand to tell them what they want to hear.

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1]

Given all the replies here the same can be said of a certain brand of journalism.

[@katioconnor5295]

In an era of increased isolation, this seems to be a great 'personal tool" to aide in better food choices, especially if you don't or have ever really cooked.

[@johndinsdale1707]

This PR lady is a good starting point but could you host the data scientist and clinicians to get the real science question answered?

[@privacytest9126]

She's a GP

[@viesia8]

I had a mixed experience with Zoe. I appreciated the real-life readings of my blood glucose and the microbiome check. But that's about it. Looking in hindsight , I could have sourced these cheaper/ better. Zoe's dietary advice is, in my opinion heavily biased toward vegetarian and outdated. I never looked at the app again, after seeing Zoe's recommendation to cook on vegetable oils.... I thought we already knew that these are inflammatory and bad for you, especially if heated... I think the app is ok for total beginners in nutrition. For anyone else: just stick to a low carb diet, and temporary carnivore for elimination elimination in case of food sensitivities... No need for Zoe.

[@privacytest9126]

Couldn't agree more. Seed oils total oxidised poison.

[@waltk7624]

I hear the word “experts “ and I automatically think corrupt

[@natasha4467]

Seriously? I don’t come to Unherd to hear product reviews or about marketing claims on overpriced products targeted at the wealthy - there are other publications and mainstream media who can do that. I hope this is not a sign of Unherd chasing the clicks, please revert back to your serious and important stories and opinions that we don’t hear elsewhere

[@360_Wanderings]

The problem is with all diets is the lack of robust science - all can make big claims in rubbish science. Be it Vegan, my plate etc etc Would be good to do one on the red meat causing diabetes that's just been in the news, try talking to Zoe Harcombe about all this

[@sturmhalo]

So it recommends what an individual should eat? I wonder whether that will be used as another "nudge"?

[@juliaparrott3655]

It's really interesting to read some of the comments. My sister is full of praise for the programme and has lost weight and feels better. I remember the same when I joined Weight Watchers back in the 70's. But I suppose I naturally have a healthy dose of 'do I really need this in my life?' which helps me pull back and give time for questions and any potential side effects to reveal themselves. What does strike me is the similar thinking with this app as we saw at the beginning of the covid jab roll out. Sensible people saying sensible things and convincing themselves of the self-approved benefits. For me, our eco systems are much more complex, so I appreciate this discussion. Thank you,

[@catherinemillard9623]

I tried the Zoe intermittent fasting. I didn't feel any difference in any respect. I noticed there were many people thrilled to have lost weight, predominantly evening nibblers. This seems to be similar.

[@Kefuddle]

It is a human condition that the more data we have, the more problems we see, even when the surrounding world has not changed and there are not problems evident. Economic, Climate Change, Mental Health….Wellness.