Spock Responsible for Wolf 359 Tragedy?!

[@gillianorley]

The Starfleet ships were getting their asses kicked at the start of “First Contact” too. That is why Picard disregarded his orders and took the Enterprise E back to Earth. He was listening to the battle and could hear that they were losing. The reason they were able to blow-up the Borg cube so quickly after the Enterprise E arrived was because Picard could hear the Borg collective’s “thoughts” and that revealed to him the exact place on the Borg cube to concentrate fire. Picard directed the fleet to concentrate fire on that spot and the cube was soon destroyed. It was due to Picard being connected to the hive mind, not due to advances in Statfleet weapons since Wolf 359. Even the Defiant had been defeated by the cube.

[@charleshemphill6923]

Well said I was gonna say but Cheers beat me to it

[@PatriciaCross]

This (as well as other reasons I posted in my own comment).

[@jerryc3467]

So here's the thing... that's a good *footnote* to point out, but the fact of the matter is that Starfleet's advancements over those six years WERE significant. The damage report given by Data when first arriving on the scene was that the Borg ship had "sustained heavy damage to its outer hull", enough to cause "fluctuations in their power grid". That's an extremely significant advance considering the following: 1) Borg ships are designed to function even with over 70% of their infrastructure destroyed. The fleet must've gotten pretty close to that level of damage on their own for the Borg ship to be in that precarious position when the Enterprise arrives. 2) The weapons technology of the fleet in general must be extremely advanced by comparison to six years ago, considering that the Borg cube came away from that encounter with barely a scratch on its hull. 3) The fleet was able to stay intact and significant enough of a threat from the Typhon Sector all the way to Earth, whereas the previous fleet did not manage to follow the cube out of Wolf 359. That suggests EXTREME advances in defensive technology. Picard's inside scoop on the Collective's achilles heel may be the decisive factor here, but the technological gains to take advantage of it were huge. And given Picard's quote about Starfleet not being a military organization before the first attack, coupled with Spock's demilitarization campaign 80 years earlier, make for a pretty compelling argument that the massacre is an unforeseen consequence of Spock's pacifism. Just... something to keep in mind when talking about full nuclear disarmament.

[@LordRunty]

@@jerryc3467 There's a huge flaw in your analysis. The weapons technologies are only marginally improved. The phaser arrays used at Wolf 395, Type 10s, are the same Type 10s used at First Contact. Same with the torpedoes. Certainly more ships are carrying Type 10s, virtually every design in FC compared to a mix of Type 7s to 10s at Wolf 359, but they're not new phaser array designs with dramatically improved outputs. Few ships carried the more powerful Type 12 phaser arrays or quantum torpedoes. Defensive technologies are likewise much the same, with few ships having newer technologies like ablative armour. The Defiant and the Enterprise are about the only ships we see on screen with technologies that amount to more than minor improvements. The flaw in the thinking is that the Federation is a stranger to war, they're not. Sure, they're not in constant battle, but they have regular skirmishes against other powers. And for the most part, the Federation also outclasses other powers overall. Pound for pound, perhaps only the D'deridex can stand toe to toe with a Galaxy. Sure, Starfleet doesn't view itself as a military organisation as such, but their science vessels match favourably against warships from most other powers; a focus on war would only drain resources that it could otherwise use for scientific advancements, which is the crux of why the Federation holds the advantage in the first place. The Federation are basically tech rushers in a 4x game. The Federation doesn't lack weapons technology. You could argue it lacks numbers, but more importantly it lacked tactics fighting a massive, superior opponent; they are usually the superior opponent. Prior to Wolf 359, the Federation never really had to fight a singular, massive target like a Borg Cube. The closest thing was the Doomsday Device, which was defeated by a single ship. And I suppose you could count the Whale Probe. And there's also the other really big glaring thing that gave the Borg a tactical advantage on top of the Federation being at the disadvantage of never fighting anything like the Borg. Picard. Being the Captain of the Federation Flagship, he would have been privy to virtually every aspect of the Federation defenses. He would have known what ships were the biggest threat, where they were more likely vulnerable, how the fleet is likely to react. Quite possibly even probable phaser and shield frequency ranges. Meanwhile the Federation still knew little about the Borg. The change in how the Battle of Sector 001 went compared to Wolf 359 is more because the Federation had adapted tactics and what it had learned of the Borg, advancements in weapons being down the list in the factors that helped the Federation fare better. The Federation likely fielded more ships too. Wolf 359 was fought to hold the line, while Sector 001 was fought as a defense in depth with the battle starting in the Typhon sector, and being fought all the way to Earth. We don't know how many main engagements were fought or how many ships were fielded along the way, nor how many rotated out due to damage or were destroyed. We only really know the Sol numbers; how many ships were still in fighting condition by the end. tl;dr Tactics really important.

[@richardowens9061]

I generally agree with your analysis with the exception that Picard could not actually hear the collective. He was no longer a part of it. But, he WAS once Locutus of Borg and retained memories of Borg technologies, including the weakness in the cube - the waste disposal system - that he had the fleet target. Also, let's not forget, in their first encounter with the Borg, the Enterprise D was able to inflict 20% damage to the cube in the first attack, rendering it so disabled that they were able to send an away team to study it more closely. It was only when they realized that the cube was rapidly regenerating that they retreated.

[@cormacmacsuibhne2867]

Janeway called it the massacre of Wolf 359. I think that's appropriate.

[@novagaming4207]

In Star Trek online there’s a 359 graveyard, even with the amount of ships Starfleet had the Borg had advanced tech and techniqes from other lifeforms and the ability to adapt, Starfleet stood zero chance, from a tactical point it’s 57: 1 ratio, in a scale of armament and intelligence

[@johnbockelie3899]

If the Klingons were to back down their military, so on fair terms. so would Star Fleet. The Borg would not happen until the 24th century. The Klingon peace accords happened in 2293. Q was the one who presented the Borg to Picard. By the 24th century, Star Fleet and the Federation were celebrating a peaceful time, unaware of future enemies.

[@TheMendret]

@@KalEl7802 and the Dominian War never happened

[@shauntempley9757]

@@johnbockelie3899 Q introduced the Borg, because the Borg destroyed colonies on the Federation and Romulan sides of the Neutral Zone in TNG. This in turn triggered the Romulan encounter, and the introduction of the DeDeridex in the same episode.

[@richardlahan7068]

I believe this was Q's wakeup call to the smug UFC and the belief that they are evolved and smart enough to handle anything.

[@Jamex07]

There's no way Spock could have anticipated the Borg. Or any future events that hadn't happened yet. So even if his actions "directly" lead to demilitarization, there is still no way Spock could be considered responsible for Wolf 359.

[@PKAmedia]

"they were so successfully defeated the traveled back in time" Yeah, the borg are all too well aware of how effective just Janeway'ing a problem can be.

[@joeswanson733]

or better yet the borg area always so smug they just deploy one cube.... instead of a task force of cubes.

[@brokeneyes6615]

Fun fact, the Temporal Prime Directive is also known as “Kathy’s Law”.

[@jadapinkett1656]

@@joeswanson733 Why waste resources?

[@NimhLabs]

They forget the most important part of Janeway'ing a problem... is you can only do that if you are Captain Janeway, the Goddess herself (uh... think closer to Destroyer Dieties, associated with ends times)

[@Appalachianasshole41]

It's not Janeways fault the writing was poor. Kate did all she could as an actress and honestly nobody else could have done as much with so little.

[@canisblack]

I think you give Spock too much credit. His backing of the peace play after Praxis was the right one. The Federation probably could have won that war...but not the one that followed when the Romulans rolled up on the battered Federation. Further I don't think he actually had a lot to do with the demilitarization of Starfleet and I doubt he would have supported it the way you suggest given the plethora of things he encountered on the Enterprise that wouldn't respond to anything but a big stick. If they'd respond at all. So the demilitarization of Starfleet would not have been logical.

[@thomassmith6232]

The Federation and Klingons had their warning when Vger showed up. That they forgot that there were more highly advanced, unfriendly civilizations out there wasn't the Vulcans fault.

[@joerogers9413]

Don't forget Nomad and the Doomsday Device.

[@krisgonynor689]

@@joerogers9413 Or even the whale probe.

[@jmcfintona999]

@@joerogers9413 tribbles too

[@joerogers9413]

@@jmcfintona999 🙂

[@spiritofthewolf15x]

You would think that the saying "If you wish for peace, prepare for war" wouldn't be unknown to Spock.

[@mikewaterfield3599]

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum, so powerful the 9X19MM pistol ammo os named for it.

[@talisredstar1543]

Balance in on things. Also comes to mind. Balance means good and bad.

[@alphanerd7221]

yeah that quote comes from one of the most warlike civilizations in history right before it's collapse. It was prepared for war. never got that peace.

[@mikewaterfield3599]

@@alphanerd7221 funny thing is rome didnt really collapse. It crumbled, if you want to get technical the embers of the roman empire live on with the catholics.

[@johnsohn653]

Trouble is that if Starfleet was more advanced they could have been either culled earlier or had a massive Borg fleet invade instead of one lousy cube. They could have overwhelmed earth using the transwarp conduit.

[@Excalibur01]

This is also the power of hindsight and retconning the Borg. The transwarp conduits was invented in Voyager.

[@destructimus]

@@Excalibur01 I wonder if the Federation should have attacked the borg after destroying the conduit, wiped out any cubes in the area before they could re-link with the collective. Assuming there were more cubes in the alpha quadrant, anyway.

[@mikefuston4494]

if the borg sent say 20 cubes it would been over

[@GrandmasterDevo]

@@Excalibur01 Actually, transwarp was introduced in the TNG episode "Descent".

[@alphanerd7221]

@@Excalibur01 Well they had to have faster than Warp travel the way they kept shipping ships to the Alpha Quadrant. They couldn't have all left 80 years ago.

[@Audioholics]

This is total nonsense. Starfleet scaled back bases along the neutral zone. They didn't make their ships less combat capable as evident that every Enterprise after the NCC-1701A had better weaponary and shields. They would have never been prepared for the Borg without actual engagements.

[@LoreReloaded]

They literally did based on dialogue.. I even showed you a clip

[@R2121]

It is important to note that the phasers and shields of a Starfleet vessel are not intended primarily for combat purposes, they're meant for exploration and science stuff. The shields to prevent radiation and debris from harming the vessel or crew, and the phasers are modular cutting implements that can be used to probe and understand things the vessel encounters. The scaling back of actual weapons development during the Kirk era hampered later eras of Starfleet's ability to defend itself. The Borg showed how drastically Starfleet wasn't ready.

[@JasonJD48]

@@LoreReloaded In fairness, what we see is a very high level conversation, we don't know exactly what drawing down the forces looked like. Starfleet ships were already dual purpose, the 5 year mission was as much exploration and science as it was security. We also see advances in weapon and shield technology in the ensuing years, which makes me think the draw down was less "let's make Starfleet ships less capable" and more, "maybe we don't need as many ships, etc." This is no different than having a smaller active Navy in peacetime, it doesn't mean the ships you do have in service are any less lethal or that naval technologies don't advance. I would also add that I think Spock's role in brokering peace does not make him the architect of Starfleet's new defensive posture, I think you may be overstating his role. I think it's also dubious to assume that even a more militarized Starfleet would have fared better at Wolf 359 given Borg adaptability. You can only really prepare for the Borg by having knowledge of them and their adaptability, which is why Q exposes the Enterprise to them sooner than would have originally happened. I could buy your rationale more if you were to say it set them back in the Dominion war, as that was a more conventional conflict in which we see Starfleet behind on manpower and ships from nearly the beginning. But even that I think can't be placed just on Spock's shoulders, there must have been many in Starfleet and the Federation pushing in that direction. Lastly, we see a future in which Starfleet doesn't cement its relationship with the Klingons and Starfleet didn't fare too well in that scenario, for all we know, a universe in which Starfleet keeps a more militarized stance may not even make it to an encounter with the Borg.

[@Audioholics]

@@LoreReloaded only one time mentioned this in Star Trek VI. They were militarized during the Cardassian war which happened after those events. They scale back after wars which is likely typical in a utopian based society. By DS9 they were heavily militarized again to go up against the Dominion.

[@Naudia93]

Aktually

[@grabitt]

Ok yes Spock proposed the scaling back of military assets towards the Klingons from Starfleet, but the Federation would go to war with the Cardasians and a few others while maintaining the military along the Romulan neutral zone. The Romulans having proved to disregard the boarders when it suited them, starfleet would still want to maintain their technological advantage in combat tactics and weaponry. Thus I'd have to say that I find it very doubtful that Starfleet Command would have taken the singular opinion of one Starfleet captain and "mothballed the Star Fleet" when the Klingons were not the only aggressors they had to deal with and were already aware of.

[@joeswanson733]

i wouldn' be surprised if the vulcans come up with a initiative it gets a lot of support from other member worlds.

[@miles2378]

Starfleet spent 15-20 years fighting a series of Border wars with cardasia prior to Q throwing Enterprise in to borg space. The cardasians worked at breaknech speed to try to rapidly match firepower and numbers to chalange Starfleet.

[@miles2378]

Lore invoking "Spock" is Click bate 75 years seperated undiscovered country and wolf 359 75 years of telarian, cardasian, and tzenkethy war against the federation this whole video sounds like a Republican war monger wrote it that is defly afraide of peace because it threatans the military industrial complex.

[@joerogers9413]

Still, Starfleet had become very pacifist/anti-war by the time of the Next Generation. Wars with lesser powers like the Cardasians would of ended quickly if Starfleet was willing to defend their territory.

[@miles2378]

@@joerogers9413 the Tzenkethy where powerful enough that the Founders thougth it worth wild to start try to start a war with the federation in order to destabalise the Federation, and how many hundreds of thousands of Cardasians military/civilians would the federation have to kill in order to beat the Cardasians into submition.

[@marvenlunn6086]

We are the Borg we sent 1 cube to the federation and were defeated at wolf 359 let's send 1 cube again the federation won't realize we are fertilizing them we are farming them for new technology

[@RailfanJason]

Also makes you wonder how much better Starfleet would have been against the Dominion if they weren't held back 75 years. Think about it, it took Starfleet a year or two to be able to successfully fight the Dominion, if they had another 75 years on top of that, I don't think the Dominion wold have been much of a threat at all.

[@mikewaterfield3599]

Yeah, that one in particular. The borg are not a conventional enemy. The Dominion more or less are.

[@christopherg2347]

I think that would have made it trivial for the founders to destablize the Federation. There was resentment against the "Military" as far back as Wrath of Khan. The rebellion of that Admiral or the Bluegill Parasites might have easily succeeded in a more militarized Starfleet.

[@charleswake44]

Or even if Wolf359 had not happened and reminded the Federation that they needed a potent defensive structure, the Dominion would have completely overrun the Federation and surrounding areas without much resistance.

[@joeswanson733]

the dominion only sent a expedition force to the AQ and that alone was enough to put the entire AQ on the losing end. if the federation maintained miitary expansionism from 2293 to 2374 starfleet would've had a bigger combat fleet and some nifty toys to fight the dominion fleet and push them back to the GQ most likely.

[@joeswanson733]

@@gulliverdeboer5836 i find it funny that the other races can be openly hostile and beef up their militaries but the federation isn't allowed to.

[@wesmagyar]

The only problem with this logic is when the enterprise had encountered the Borg after Q sent them over to the Delta quadrant they would’ve seen the advanced technology when they scanned the enterprise D instead of sending one lone cube they probably would’ve invaded en masse...

[@TheEDFLegacy]

But think of the children!

[@StoneWolf2077]

Yeah I was the same thing especially in first contact the Borg learning from there previous encounters would have sent a larger group of ship's.

[@generalgrievous696]

@@StoneWolf2077 that all depends on where in the timeline they acquired the knowledge before or after. Temporal mechanics is a headache inducing thing

[@SlyRoapa]

They should have sent a fleet instead of a single cube anyway. Even if there was no way for them to predict the "go to sleep" trick, a single ship is vulnerable, no matter how powerful it is. They had no way of knowing if the UFP had weapons that could have defeated them - even after assimilating Picard, the UFP may have had experimental weapons Picard didn't know about. Sending a single cube was arrogant. It's not like they don't have plenty to spare.

[@generalgrievous696]

@@SlyRoapa it was arrogant but then again arrogance is the downfall of most villains. Plus picard was the captain of the federation's flagship. He was one of the most in the know captains of Starfleet plus one of the most logical tactical minds. On the topic of not knowing what weapons starfleet had Most technology and weapons from races could damage the Borg but not at a pace that the Borg couldn't out heal or adapt to meaning the threat that the Borg faced from other species was reactionary most times not precautionary since most species encounter with the borg was their last, many did not have the technology to overcome something the sheer magnitude of the size of one cube. With their experience from past races it seems that most times one cube was more than enough for the Borg to send to destroy entire civilizations. The only real difference being with species 8472 and arturus race who put up more of a fight than expected blessing to the Borg sending many ships to combat them

[@warblerab2955]

I never understood the line in Star Trek 6, "so are we talking about mothballing the fleet?" um, did you forget about the Romulans? Were the Cardasians totally unknown at the time? What about the Breen? Tholians? What about other possible unknown threats? Why would you even ask about mothballing the fleet?

[@Vipre-]

Typical Warhawk hyperbole. If you dare suggest any shift in focus or funding then you're "trying to abolish the X".

[@joerogers9413]

I believe this was before first contact with the Cardasians and Breen, but you're right. Although this was at a time when relations with the Romulans were neutral and the Tholians and the Gorn are basically isolationists who only attack when their border is threatened.

[@JasonJD48]

There also isn't a direct answer to the question, the CinC says that the "scientific and exploration would be unaffected but" before Cartwright interrupts him. The only details Spock gives prior to that is the dismantling of space stations and star bases along the neutral zone. Cartwright is the only one who says anything about dismantling the fleet, this assumption (and possibly hyperbole) on his part is not confirmed by the CinC or anyone else. The discussion then turns to Kirk's mission to rendezvous with Gorkon. This discussion is hardly the smoking gun that Lore and others make it out to be, it's a very high level discussion about possibilities with no details or plans.

[@alphanerd7221]

In response to that question everyone is in agreement that that idea is ludicrous.

[@messman10]

That wasn't the issue, it was that the Starfleet Admiral in charge refused to change tactics and planning after Picard was assimilated.

[@archades115]

If I recall correctly, it was after Wolf 359 that Spock told Data "I have no regrets."

[@DannyBeans]

And I think he's right in feeling that way. His actions (and I agree with others here that they may be overstated) were just one factor among millions or billions influencing the course of history. It would be like blaming Woodrow Wilson for 9/11 - you can make the argument that his decision to interfere in the Russian Revolution helped set the stage, but so did an uncountable number of other factors.

[@christopherg2347]

The Federation budget and focus is a Zero Sum game. Those gains in a military power - when no military power was needed - would have come at a cost of *something* else. Stuff including but not limited: General Technological development Internal Stability Admission of new members Exploration, feeding all 3 others. Those sectors all helped build the fleet up for Sector 001 and the Dominion War. Having +5% better weapons means nothing, if you can afford -20% ships. And basic research could result in you gaining +20% power from new energy sources in fields military research would never touch. Exactly *because* they demilitarized and spend those resources on more usefull places, were the able to be ready that quickly. The Borg are a force unlike any other in the galaxy. They can not be intimidated, forced onto the negotiation table or reasoned with. "You measure yourself against the pitifull enemies you defeated - the klingons, the romulans, the cardassians." They were a unprecedented enemy. Yet despite this, the federation was able to adapt at lightning speed.

[@NineWorldsFromDrew]

That's real harsh, on Spock. I mean, *nobody* knew just how "ready" Starfleet needed to be, in order to fight the Borg. The whole point they make in the first half hour of "The Best of Both Worlds" is that a cube is near invincible - at least to Starfleet's capabilities at the time. But then the addition of Locutus, the assimilation of Picard's knowledge and experience, is supposed to make that one cube *truly* invincible. To say that you can "just get more weapons" to successfully fight the Borg, is generally a defiance of canon. Like it or not, Voyager's crew beat the Borg on multiple occasions by out-smarting them, not by out-fighting them.

[@dragonmaster613]

Plus, Janeway did what Picard couldn't: she had a former Borg (with most of their intel) on her side.

[@dennisud]

I would love to see how the Mirror Universe Terran Empire handled the Borg. I know there has been mention of it but I want to see more if possible.

[@rvaughan74]

I read the story "The Worst of Both Worlds." spoiler Picard whoops their butts.

[@bentencho]

Assuming the years are the same, the Terran Empire has already fallen to the Cardassian-Klingon alliance. The Cardassian-Klingon alliance may potentially fare better as they are already more militaristic, with a large standing military and occupation force out and about. But their tech is a bit lower than the regular universe though.

[@tixxoncraft]

@@bentencho their tech is lower in some areas and higher in others,they invented a device to teleport to the prime universe for example,while the prime universe needed the wormhole for that

[@Liopleurodon]

I think a full militarized Starfleet during or even after the Kithomer negotiations would have lead to much more distrust or even open resistance from the radical Klingons and even more the Romulans. Maybe even an all out klingon civil war could have been the result with Feds backing Gorkons side and the Romulans Changs (while the Hawks in Starfleet also would have gained what they wanted). Such a conflict also could easy spread to other factons like the Tholians or Gorn... so demilitarization was the price the Federation had to pay and maybe the 11 thousand dead at Wolf359 are, as gruesome as it sounds, the better outcome.

[@joeswanson733]

problem is that the demilitarization even though it was the best interest for the quadrant as a whole left the federation in such a vulnerable state that they almost got the living tar kicked out of them by the borg and the dominion who shrae no such pacificst beliefs. keep in mind the federation only took on 1 expedition group from the dominion not the whole fleet itself. same with the borg. 1 cube in TNG and 1 cube in first contact. that's all it took to almost end the federation

[@sueschern3404]

That’s so interesting almost need a movie for it so fascinating that people can come up with the stuff ..I feel so bad having read it even though I never knew of it..Unfortunately in real life demilitarization honestly can’t be possible because there’s always evil ..always unfortunately.. I rescue animals for 40 years and I know what I’m saying I see it all the time.. And granite that’s not the same as countries going to war but when you see how willing people are to do the wrong thing like Nazi Germany you can see my point

[@jimsondergeld2262]

"Radical Klingons"? Sounds redundant. And the Romulans were always paranoid about the Federation in any case. You don't let your adversaries' biases and misperceptions dictate your own foreign policy.

[@Liopleurodon]

​@@joeswanson733 thats true and basically the point of the video it seems, but who knows where the alternative may have lead us... after such a war like I describe Q may have not shown interesst at humanity at this point and so not provoked the first contact with the Enterprise... and the Dominion, on the other hand could have stepped into the Alpha Quadrant without any real resistance (assuming they found the wormhole without an Emissary-Sisko). Of course it could also be that the Feds wn the war in the end and are the ONE power in the Alpha Quadrant... yet, one may ask how much of the Federation as we knew it may be left. ​ @Jim Sondergeld well even the Klingons have moderate (Gorkon, Martok, Gowron) and radical (Chang, Duras+sisters) voices. Also, yes you do let your adversaries misperceptions (partially) guide your foreign policy... either you want to exploit them, or, following the spirit of the Federation, you are desperate to correct them. Biasses have always been part of politics, no matter if true or false

[@shauntempley9757]

@@jimsondergeld2262 Chang counts as a radical Klingon.

[@thanqualthehighseer]

The problem with this is the borg increase in strength by absorbing knowledge and technology. Even if Starfleet had continued its more military stance, the borg would have simply gained the advanced weapons and defences as well as experience of combat trained and experienced officers who understood how to combat them. That's even if the federation was fully intact by this point, more peaceful planets wouldn't have joined a more militaristic organisation or even left the federation to form a separate entity. Other might had even allied with the Romulans or Cardassians out of fear leading to possible war and a smaller, weaker Starfleet than when the Borg originally encountered them.

[@thanqualthehighseer]

Exactly they assimilated Picard to gain tactical and psychological knowledge of how to combat Starfleet efficiently. Now imagine the borg assimilating a Picard that was a purely tactician and strategist that studied every known species combat tactics not a diplomat and scholar, The results of Wolf 395 would be exactly the same if not worse.

[@notmegaming9038]

One critical flaw in this theory.... it assumes the borg threat level to remain the same. If Starfleet had been a more massive advanced military, then its even more likely that multiple cubes would be dispatched instead of one. Instead of a single massacre incident we would have complete invasion of the Alpha Quadrant. Never forget the borg are a unique enemy, and are not bound by many of the normal rules of war.

[@thomasjenkins5727]

I doubt it. The Federation's war-hawks just pushed more weapons onto the "exploration" and "science" vessels wherever they could. Which isn't a terrible idea. Starfleet doesn't need warships, it needs ships that serve other purposes that are all suspiciously well-armed. In times of peace, those ships can serve a peaceful purpose, and in times of war, they can serve a millitary purpose. One of the things that bugs me about Wolf 359 and other engagements of the era is that the Galaxy Class shows us exactly this mentality in Starfleet ship design. It's why the Enterprise separates in the first episode of TNG. And yet at Wolf 359 we see ships lined up for battle with no separation having taken place. All of those ships should have had *some* degree of separation, even if it's just splitting off half the saucer section. Those families should not have been there. But that would have taken more work, and been less tragic, so they didn't do that.

[@Lawfair]

If memory serves the Federation had, had sizable wars with the Cardassians, Breen, Tzenkethi and Tamarians, possibly also the Shelyak between Star Trek VI and Q-Who. I don't think we can say the Federation was demilitarized.

[@larqven0192]

Add the Tholians to the list as well, as Riker's dad was once endangered by an attack and Riker himself once engaged in a simulation against the Tholians, suggesting a period of conflict. The Tamarians? No, but the Talarians, certainly. The Sheliak? Unfriendly, but no wars, I believe. I'd say that these were 'long wars, but low scale, with Star Fleet fighting with one arm behind their backs'.

[@alphanerd7221]

@@larqven0192 Not likely. The Tholians arn't really war like. They are incredibly defensive isolationists and the Federation doesn't appear to have an answer for the Tholian's technical superiority. In every Tholian on screen conflict the goal is escape.

[@warrenreid6109]

There was no way that Starfleet would have been ready for the Borg. The Borg had technology never encountered therefore you can't prepare for it.

[@TerranceChilds-ui8nh]

My god the battle of wolf 359 was a nightmare

[@branfordmonticello853]

Picard caused it. When Q sent him to the 4th Quadrant, he could've left. He decided to stick around and explore, came across the first Borg cube and tried to make contact. Then he got kidnapped. That led to Locutus wrecking Starfleet.

[@Woopaloops]

Exactly right. It was his own arrogance and self assurance that caused it. Always satisfying to watch him beg Q for help. Picard is the worst captain in the entire franchise without a doubt.

[@jimsondergeld2262]

Several problems with your thesis: 1) The Borg were not "successfully defeated" at the Battle of Sector 001; I would argue that they self-destructed their cube as cover for the time travel sortie. Which was absurd, since Starfleet was no more capable of defeating a Borg cube then than it was six years earlier; the Collective was in no danger of "successful defeat". That was the writers nerfing the Borg in preparation for their eventual overuse on "Voyager". 2) Your read of "Undiscovered Country" is all wrong. Starfleet was not "militarized" during Kirk's era; it was, rather, balanced between its exploration and defense roles. That continued into the twenty-fourth century; Starfleet never "demilitarized," as the next twenty years after Praxis built towards another war with the Romulans. They got soft in the sixty or so years after the Tomed incident because they faced no major enemies, with the Klingons their allies, the Romulans in predominant isolation, and the Tzenkethi and Cardassians being minor, third-rate nuisance powers. The Borg incursion took them flatfooted, but that's hardly unusual for any major power after a long stretch of complacence-building peacetime. But in the six years after Wolf 359, while Starfleet attempted a Borg-focused military buildup, they never came remotely close to parity with the Collective, as the (beta cannon) Destiny Trilogy devastatingly illustrated. 3) While the Khitomer Accords were foolhardy for the UFP at the time, the Klingon Alliance - along with the post-Wolf 359 military buildup - were crucial in repelling the Dominion Invasion. Something with which Spock could arguably be credited. 4) Blaming Spock for Wolf 359 is pure clickbait.

[@JasonJD48]

I would argue on point 1 that the Federation did better in the sense that it lasted longer against the Borg as opposed to being quickly smacked down like Wolf 359, but they only 'won' because of Picard's inside knowledge. Your point still stands though, not the victory it was made out to be by Lore Master. I agree on your other points.

[@mitchellpeterson8644]

74 years of split focus I think. Those years spent accelerating their science and industry capacity allowed for a rapid shift of gears into military when needed.

[@charlesroyal5125]

Great video. A lot of people support a militarised starfleet. However, let me remind everyone about the Romab Empire and the praetorian guard. When the army disagreed with an emperor they would murder him and take over the government, only later themselves to be murdered and overthrown by other factions within the army. In star trek we see how loyal officers are to their comanders. And how corrupt a lot of admirals are. If starfleet was militarised it wouldn't take much for Admital Layton, Admiral Ross and Admital Naychev to become regional governors (regional warlords) and then use their strength to conquest the democratic government (or stage a coup) admiral layton even said "I still have enough ships to make a fight of it" and that was with a pacifistic and limited starfleet taskforce. Militarization is a dangerous game.

[@genlando327plays2]

I was thinking about Layton's coup myself for this very reason. From an economic standpoint, when a society separates military from every day affairs for the purposes of security, it nearly inevitably leads to the degradation of the country into a cycle of coups or coup attempts. If that had been the case in Layton's era, he could have become unopposed very quickly and then they would have had the ultimate case of "if one is willing to trade liberty for security, they are a fool who deserves neither and will eventually lose both"

[@EvilFookaire]

We can stick with Starfleet... - Infiltrated and taken over by evil space bugs before the borg arrived (irony; those bugs were supposed to be what later the Borg became... but they were deemed too different from what trek fans were after, too much like something out of "Aliens", perhaps, so this story was dropped before the episode in which Q introduced the borg was even written). - Remember what Starfleet was doing to the so'na during Insurrection? Yeah.... let's make that a strong military organization.... with superior weaponry and stuff... Bottom line - you're very correct, had Starfleet been turned to a powerful military, in fact, we might have been seeing the Borg as liberators by the time they showed up.

[@armchairwarrior963]

I wouldn't call it a war from the borg. They sent a scout! If they want to, they would send a whole fleet.

[@leejohnstone894]

Well Starfleet was prepared for the Borg cube in First Contact. The fleet held off the cube for hours and defeated the Borg with Captain Picard,"s help with ease.

[@mikewaterfield3599]

Oh come on! The knife ears are meddling pacifists but blaming Spock in particular? Now Sarek his father……….

[@williamberry4597]

LOL!

[@ChristopherG1990]

I’d imagine they would’ve had slipstream by the TNG era if the Spore drive and the transwarp drive (even though it failed) were the result of the Klingon war and their presence as a constant threat. Edit: You know what, this is a complete reflection to what happened in the Terran universe. It was Spock who demilitarized the Terran empire!

[@thanqualthehighseer]

And they were conquered by the Klingon empire.

[@kennethsanderson1172]

We got to see a militarized Starfleet in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

[@billybegood466]

If we really want to point fingers, how about the guy that made the Borg aware of the Federation's existence in the first place?

[@jt9d7]

In fairness, I believe Starfleet was never dedicated entirely to exploration and scientific missions, as they fought in numerous conflicts during the good part of the 24th century. The Cardassian War, the Tzenkethi, the Talarians... So, it is reasonable to assume that there were at least some offensive capabilities.

[@alphanerd7221]

For their first mission they didn't even install the weaponry.

[@dragonmaster613]

If history was different, the Federation would have been a tastier target for the Borg and would have had even less manpower to fight due to a centuries long war with both the Klingons and a Vulcan/Romulan alliance.

[@michaelcongerjr8806]

Spock's face while reading it: one eyebrow up and he says "I suppose a mistake has been made."

[@richjordan6461]

I think he'd say TACTICAL ERROR personally

[@khyron666ok8]

He did the same thing to the glorious Terran Empire resulting in the enslavement if Humanity. The moral of the story is suffer not the Xenos to live.

[@doctorclu]

LOL! Honestly I think if anyone proposed any blame to Spock over the Borg some 74 years after Praxis he would have found the connection irrelevant as the Borg was not a factor of the post-Praxis peace negotiations, but also illogical to belabor the complaint. However, Spock would then recommend Starfleet regulations for filing a formal grievance if the person complaining believed the point should be further investigated. Spock would then signal the person to inch a bit closer and then Spock would whisper to them "I should add that without any direction connection to the Borg problem, as that happened 74 years after Praxis, that the case will more than likely be thrown out before going to trial."

[@alphanerd7221]

If someone brought this to Spock he would destroy it with one cutting remark.

[@cwinterburn87]

An interesting video. However wouldn't the results have been pretty much the same since even if the Federation had the extra time to develop more advanced technology, the Borg would have known about most of not all of it by assimilating Captain Picard? Unless it managed to avoid his capture?

[@72Worker]

That depends on your point of view. The Federation new of the Borg far longer than than a single decade evidence is seen in Seven of Nine on Star Trek Voyager. She was a child when she was first assimilated.

[@sgtmyers88]

While not considered official canon I had always liked the idea that V-GER and the Borg are connected. With the context of this video it offers further damning evidence considering Spock mind melded with V-GER. He could have given the Federation foresight knowledge of the Borg's existence.

[@LTDLimiTeD1995]

The Shatner novel "The Return" gets into this, actually. I highly recommend Ashes of Eden>The Return>Avenger if you haven't read them (though it sounds live you might've?)

[@pknuttarlott4934]

I have a question about the Q. Does the mirror verse and other realms have their own Q or one set of Q for the entire multiverse.

[@EvilFookaire]

A few times this issue was almost-but-not-quite answered in the different Trek series, but across those times it seemed the writers were contradicting eachother/themselves. One moment you'd see the Q be a single entity across different universes, in a sense being above the restrictions of each seperate universe... and then another moment the Q in "our" universe would be unique to "our" Trek universe and either have counterparts in other universes, or (seemingly the route mostly taken) not exist in other universes. An example speaking for one set of Q to cover all universes: That episode where Q tested Picard by using multiple universes/timelines (the 'Time squared' episode). Also, a few episodes with Q's had the Q in those episodes make remarks about how they could travel to the first moments of universes - pointing out that they as a unique entity see different universes in a same way that we might see different locations that we can get to... and we're the same individuals in those locations as we are anywhere else. In a few episodes (across different series) in which "THE" mirror universe played a big part, there's no sign of Q... no sign what-so-ever, as if Q does not exist at all in any universe at that moment. In one episode from Voyager (I forgot the specifics) Q makes a comment about something which initially sounded like it tied into how the Q are the same across universes, but which on second thought simply didn't add up at all... something that seemed to confuse "galaxy" with "universe" somehow. Personally I like to think that the Q are the same across the multiverse, but they can still be different between universes - they're playing their part in each universe under the multiverse. They're simply being everything, being the road in one universe, the car in another, the driver in a third universe.... this way at least I can get beyond any shoddy self-contradictory writing by humans trying to write something that's supposed to be so much more than what humans can eve imagine.

[@christenorio9555]

You must send your scripts for building an What if tv series based startrek like marvel What if TV series

[@terrywhite1345]

So you're saying Kirk was right, after all, demilitarizing the fleet was a "terrifying idea?" I agreed with Kirk.

[@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain]

Maybe the MACOs should have been kept separate from Starfleet or made into the Starfleet Marine Corps so as to have a military branch separate from the exploration and science branch from the beginning.

[@Peregrin3]

I would love to see a star trek series set in a mirror universe where Starfleet was divided into several divisions including Military, Scientific, and Colonial, and how different it would look, it always really annoyed me to see the mirror universe ultra militaristic Terran Empire using the same ship designs that were designed by pacifists.

[@timbojonesunderwood3086]

prolly similar to the terran empire

[@charlesroyal5125]

What if the Nazis commissioned Mercades benz to design federation starship... they would look epic

[@joeswanson733]

the terran empire was pretty much on its way out by 2155 according to mirror darkly. TOS defiant goes back in time/dimension captured by archer and with the tech of the defiant extended the empires life until 2293. i doubt the emipre even advanced in tech but basicall spammed defiant tech over and over again. and again in the mirror universe spock dismantled the emipre basically leaving them open to klingon/cardassian invasion. but basically the federation should have always maintained a military arm. sure they can explore with one arm and defend it with another arm.

[@Peregrin3]

@@timbojonesunderwood3086 Not really, the Terran Empire doesn't make any sense on multitude of levels one chief one is their ship design, they are also ridiculously hyper stereotypical bad guys, I was thinking of making Starfleet subdivided in various fields like we have today with the military, NASA and civilian. Most ships ship designs in the Federation would not pass military specs and be relegated to civilian, diplomatic or scientific only. The USS Defiant from DS9 would be a good design template to base military ships off of, and fully geared ground and navy troops would be a must, MAKO was decent but could use better gear.

[@ohnme9557]

Eh, if they would have had these advanced weapons at J25, the Borg would have had 6 years to adapt to them. Same boat, bigger guns I think.

[@brokeneyes6615]

The knock on effect of Wolf 359 would include a stronger Klingon fleet, which combined with weak leadership lead to a brief Klingon civil war which, while being weakened somewhat was still in a strong enough position to later engage in invasion and occupation of Kardashian territory (I see the autocorrect text and like it) followed very shortly by opening a second front with the UFP. This of course wouldn’t last when the Dominion got involved and beat the Klingons out so badly they immediately made peace with the UFP to form a literal Armada in Star Trek with the Romulans, who were involved in the Klingon civil war as a destabilizing force by providing weapons and support to the Duras sisters. This allied force allowed for the sharing and development of technology, including cloaking devices, biological weapons and other offensive tech to defeat the Dominion. By the end of the war Starfleet was far more militant than they had been at any point in their history, developed several ships explicitly for war (including a ship that can separate into three pieces), and would later receive an intrepid class vessel, which had been at the peak of technology just as the Dominion war was about to start, back from thr delta quadrant augmented with both Borg and future tech… including deployable armor. To sum it all up: Spock cause Wolf 359 to be as bad as it was, the knock on effects allowed the Romulans to feel they could manipulate the klingons into a civil war and a few years later when that failed thr Klingons went to war with the Kardashians then the UFP which weakened everyone for the Dominion which in turn caused a decay of values in the UFP as well as pursue a policy of militarization that would in turn produce a ship and captain that would give Starfleet a undeniable, and quite possibly unsurpassable technological advantage over everyone else. Oh and we can probably blame the Kalvin timeline on Wolf 359 too, if Red Matter isn’t natural then the UFP made it, which considering the Star goes nova post Nemesis there not only at post war peak, but have been analyzing voyager for a bit… damnit Spock, why’d Kirk go off searching for you…

[@mosermi443]

I think the klingons would have grown more and more distrusting of the federation and created the timeline in the episode "yesterday's enterprise" where the federation was on the cusp of losing the war. So not better in the long run.

[@Sasuke81a]

Funny how Mirror Spock had also played a role in the Demise of the Terran Empire.

[@patrickdios4404]

Spock’s logic and peaceful attitudes toward alien worlds has been an underlying aspect of Spock’s personality. Even with out the kelvin timeline and Enterprise series, The undiscovered country shows Spock will pursue peace even at behest of his fellow crew mates. Even Kirk has to fix the problem, even though he didn’t want to be involved in the first place. The ideology from that movie plot thru the introduction of the Borg as an enemy to all creatures, show a weak and very disillusioned star fleet. One in which talks of wars as if they are for a less civilized age. Unfortunately the Borg are an enemy that really employ a more modern villain, one that is above the Klingon house squabbles and the deceit of the Romulans. The Borg were a new enemy for sci fi.

[@DarthMalaks_Missing_Lower_Jaw]

I don't think anything would've prevented Wolf 359 from going the way it did. Chances are Starfleet would not have developed their new shield technology (whatever it's called, I can't remember) without the Borg invasion so they would have had the same tech, militarized or not.

[@alphanerd7221]

If Kirk was there the Borg would have lost.

[@leptonsoup337]

If only Michael Burnahm was on hand! She could have won the day with a Freedom class vessel held together with duct tape and unicorn glue!

[@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain]

Ah yes Mary sue to the rescue. And I suppose she would be drinking afternoon tea the whole time???

[@robspadre5519]

A metaphor for what is happening in the West right now.

[@naverilllang]

Oh Starfleet is still very much a military organization. Just a few decades before TNG was the Cardassian war, of which O'Brien is a veteran. Starfleet ships are also all armed to the teeth. Starfleet ships lack stealth technology, and yet are still dangerous enough to keep the Romulans and Klingons (at least until Dominion meddling) in check. The Galaxy class is, by far, the most powerful vessel of the major powers. Starfleet calls itself an exploratory organization, but the purpose and understanding was always that it is a powerful military force, ready to defend Starfleet interests against all foreign aggressors. If Starfleet actively pursued further arming than that, the result would be an arms race against all other powers, and the possibility of a Cardassian/Klingon/Romulan alliance to prevent Starfleet from developing into a hegemon. The other powers of course are not fooled by the claims of exploration, but as long as the Federation strikes the balance of being too costly to invade but not dangerous enough to force a response, the Federation is safe from aggression. The appearance 9f the Borg and Dominion were completely unforeseeable. The military is a tool of politics. Starfleet will be maintained at a readiness appropriate to the threats the Federation faces, not some unknown power from the other side of the Galaxy that gets thrown at their doorstep through some bs space magic.

[@conservativecatholic9030]

While Spock may have been a significant part in creating the Starfleet mentality of the Golden Age of Trek I can hardly blame him here. There is too much Starfleet history for too long and too many decisions Starfleet made.

[@jamesabernethy7896]

This only recently came up for me. I can see where you are coming from but I still think that Starfleet's strength is 'bright' not 'might.' Science and understanding is the key to defeating the Borg, a more Militarized Starfleet may help when it comes to the Romulans or Cardassians or Dominion. Brute force will only work so long against the Borg before they adapt, without so much emphasis on science, Starfleet would not have been able to adapt their own tactics.

[@robertprichard1171]

Well, didn't having a focus on diplomacy, science, and exploration give SF the ability to quickly make military advances in a short time frame?

[@alphanerd7221]

Yeah. Rome was militaristic for centuries with no significant advance in military tech. Being militaristic doesn't make you more advanced. It worked for the US and the NAZI's but that is about it.

[@cenotemirror]

The idea that Starfleet had achieved an even footing with the Borg by the Battle of Sector 001 is simply not supported by a viewing of those events. Starfleet was in the process of once again having it’s ass handed to it before the Enterprise-E shows up. What swings the battle isn’t a militarized starfleet or fancy new weapons, but the fact that Picard, having formerly been Locutus of Borg, knows exactly where to concentrate fire to destroy the ship.

[@jamesgoogleisfartoonosey452]

"What swings the battle isn’t a militarized starfleet or fancy new weapons, but the fact that Picard, having formerly been Locutus of Borg, knows exactly where to concentrate fire to destroy the ship." This! I have never understood the tactics of swarming a ship like a Borg Cube and throwing weapon strikes at different sides. It would surely be more effective against a target like this to concentrate on doing as much damage as possible to a single point on the ship? Any damage caused by torpedo strikes would, I assume, become exponentially more detrimental to the ship. Much like taking on a Starbase/Space Station - targeting weapons at a single spot almost always seems more effective than spreading the damage over multiple shield generators...

[@Stilgarsan]

I don't think it would have made much of a difference. The Borg might have sent two cubes instead, or 15 or a tactical cube. The Borg are still this leviathan of a natural force, holding vastly more resources than starfleet does.

[@TommygunNG]

Wrong to pin it on Spock specifically. The Vulcan influence predates him and goes far beyond him, and you point out Archer's role. Spock's position post-Praxis was not just his. But then, remember Mirror Spock was responsible for the fall of Earth in that universe.

[@shadowofhawk55]

Huh, it’s almost like having a dedicated military might’ve avoided unneeded fatalities.

[@hackman669]

Wish the EU would learn from Star Trek. Always keep a standing military regardless of peace or conflict. Must be on the look out for trouble at any moment.

[@alphanerd7221]

They had a dedicated military and it didn't do them any good. Westly with a laptop is a bigger threat to the Borg than a thousand starships with uncreative crews.

[@shadowofhawk55]

@@alphanerd7221 Actually, if I am not mistaken, they did have a military wing but then got rid of it after stuff with the Klingons. Putting guns on your Starships doesn't make a science department a military. If they had dedicated combat craft, like the Defiant, they would've had a better time.

[@jhmcd2]

I don't think you can 100% blame Spock. Starfleet still kept building military ships, the Galaxy class is on the level if not a bit more of a challenge for a D'deridex class ship. If anything, the original Kitomer accords only slowed weapons development, it didn't stop it entirely. Spock may have started the matter, but Starfleet seemed to get very passive over time.

[@robertbyerlay5040]

Your warship technology and capacity only improve a little beyond your next rival's.... One galaxy class can almost defeat two romulan ships who in turn cannot defeat 3 Klingon ships and a galaxy class.

[@jhmcd2]

@@robertbyerlay5040 Well, one thing too have have to think about (which is extremely sad if you REALLY think about it). The Galaxy and Nebula class starship can wipe the floor with Cardassian warships (pre-Dominion war of course). The Breen ships are no contest, the Ferangi have to ambush them to be effective, the reality is that Starfleet is actually, tech wise, light-years ahead of most their enemies. Spock's policy of pacifism may have had an effect on Starfleet, but a century of non-competative foes didn't help ether.

[@tokunator1442]

Borg technology being radically different might mean that even 74 extra years of preparation could just have led to them having the best technology in one field and being unprepared for another. Like the Royal Navy and Kriegsmarine having the best battleships in 1941 and then losing them to airplanes.

[@rickquick8977]

The difference between the 2 battles comes down to Intelligence. The borg captured Picard so not only did they have a firepower advantage they knew every thing starfleet could do from a technology and a tatical perspective. In the second battles Picard working for starfleet had the critical intelligence to defeat the Borg. This along with some technology upgrades turned the tide at the critical juncture. Perhaps if starfleet had more time to upgrade the fleet Perhaps they could win but for me it's the critical intelligence that is the true deciding factor.

[@alphanerd7221]

Yes. It's always about out thinking the Borg. They can't be out gunned. That's why 359 was a catastrophe. If they has sent one ship with a good crew and told them to find a creative solution they could have won.

[@rickquick8977]

@@alphanerd7221 well enterprise d may have destroyed them with the main deflector dish weapon but the borg knew it was coming because they already had Picard and were able to adapt.

[@pimpinaintdeadho]

Thanks for the upload Lore!

[@panelvixen]

So here's the "Well ackshully." Archer overthrew a Romulan infiltrated Vulcan High Command that was instigating a war with several powers. As to the demilitarization of Star Fleet, is it me or could Enterprise and Enterprise-A take what ever was thrown at them and keep going while Enterprise-D would loose shields if someone sneezed the wrong way on a Tuesday?

[@kahemingway88]

Yes, I was going to point that out as well! I don't think Archer did anything wrong by helping to overthrow a government that was covertly doing the Romulan's bidding and could have led to Vulcan becoming a Romulan vassal state if the infiltration had continued.

[@alphanerd7221]

@@kahemingway88 Of course not. Archer was investigating a murder on Terran soil. He didn't even overthrow the government. That was Kuvac if such a thing happened at all. He is the one that ordered the Administrator's arrest.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

this would also explain why ships like Miranda an Excelsior saw use in the dominion war since, they remained one of the few purpose built combat ships. the miranda was designed to outmaneauver the D7 and the Excelsior could outrun and outgun any klingon vessel in service.

[@christenorio9555]

I want to see the deleted scene of startrek beyond of our Spock telling jjverse of wolf 359 and dominion war! Like back to the future letter

[@Excalibur01]

Honest Trailer did that already kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHOVY4ivbLh1m5Y

[@JohnL2112]

I think Q has much more culpability here.

[@HappyCodingZX]

The reason that Starfleet were able to rise to the challenge of the Borg was because they became a clear and present danger, so they made it an absolute priority. They also had the means and the knowledge from Picard and others to develop the weaponry. I personally don't believe it makes sense to invest heavily in military technology just in case an incredibly powerful alien enemy that you don't know exists and have absolutely no tactical knowledge of turns up at some point in the future. You would be investing huge amounts of time and energy into something that you wouldn't necessarily even know would work. It would probably also mean far less investment in exploration technology, far less expansion of the federation and allies, and likely mean that Picard's mission would never have been sanctioned. The most likely end result of this would be that the federation would still have been caught unawares, just far closer to home, with likely a lot more bloodshed.

[@JasonJD48]

Agreed, there's also the old adage of only being prepared for the previous war. There's zero evidence that the military posture and technology for the hostilities with the Klingons being effective at all against the Borg. If anything it could have made Starfleet more closed to other avenues of development and without the resources to counter the Borg threat.

[@BlazingOwnager]

I went into this video expecting a wild fan theory, but came out with an actual canon debate. Well done.

[@tortenschachtel9498]

I think you are overestimating the effect the treaty with the Klingons had. After all Starfleet still made advancements in weapons (and probably shield) technology. It's not like there were no threads besides the Klingons. The Romulans still existed, even if nobody saw them for a few decades. There was the war with the Cardassians, that seemed to be a stalemate even though the UFP should have easily been able to win it. Now a full blown war with the Klingons likely would have seen more resources poured into military tech, but considering the situation the Klingons found themselves in that probably would not have happened for a few decades either way.

[@danamoore1788]

Before we lay the blame at the feet of the vulcans and Spock specifically. Let's ask this, how many vulcans are in the diplomatic corps? Because it isn't just weapons and be pacifistic. Though there are some scenes that make me shudder on that line. Like you have a tactical officer/Head of security, and he has to justify things like raising shields. Or beg to post guards in sensitive areas when you bring potentially hostile people on board. No the part I question the diplomats is the treaty with the Romulans that prohibits the Federation to develop or use cloaking devices. The Federation has come out on top versus the Romulans at each go of it. But they give up rights? This is like the US bombed Japan in WW2. During the surrender of Japan it is agreed the US will give up atomic weapons and the use of bomber aircraft. . . Why? To quote a line from Babylon 5. "Finally there will be peace in our time." Is the only thing I can think of going through these diplomat's minds.

[@alphanerd7221]

The Romulans get the better of the Federation pretty regularly. All through TNG they are eating Starfleet's lunch.

[@grndiesel]

There is no avoiding war. It can only be delayed to the advantage of others.

[@johncunningham4820]

Spock had Broad Shoulders and even Broader Thoughts , but I imagine he probably DID find this idea " Troubling " .

[@VestedUTuber]

Agreed that total demilitarization was a mistake. However, this IS definitely an issue of hindsight being 20/20. Demilitarization at the time made logical sense because there were no major military threats at that point. The Klingons were now an ally (albeit a still very unfriendly one) and the Romulans had become total isolationists, the Tholians tended to stick to themselves anyway and only bothered you if you bothered them, and the major alpha quadrant powers (technically the Federation, Klingons and Romulans are Beta Quadrant powers) weren't exactly within reach at the time, and even if they were they were either technologically inferior anyway or not actually interested in a straight-up fight. So, even after contact with factions like the Cardassians, Breen and Ferengi, there wasn't really a need for a dedicated military - and if things did go south, you could always call in the KDF. Heck, even after the Romulans decided to participate in galactic affairs again, they primarily relied on subterfuge rather than direct military engagements. In short, the Borg were the first legitimate military threat the Federation had encountered in almost a century, so I can't blame them for making decisions that were only revealed to be mistakes 74 years AFTER those decisions were made.

[@steverogers3919]

You've really stepped up your game in the last couple videos. Keep up the good work

[@peterdanior4538]

So both times the Enterprise destroyed a Borg cube is was because of the link with Locutus. That alone helped them defeat the Borg. But yeah, I’m sure bigger phasers for them assimilate would have worked just as well.

[@darthkurland]

“All of those lives lost because of me, Jim. Because I failed.” - Spock Prime, “Star Trek” (2009).

[@darthkurland]

The expression on his face there, would probably be appropriate.

[@davidpowell7945]

I imagine the Andorions representative too the Federation Council was like "I told you so", and afterwards Starfleet would work with Andorions ship designers too build the next generation of Starfleet vessels

[@chjeremy6538]

u can also argue its because star fleet focus so much on exploring/tec they became so adaptive they cant be destroyed. a military focus power like kingon won't last long in a prolonged conflict cuz they lack fundamental science to upgrade their weapon

[@Excalibur01]

No one was prepared for the Borg. Conventional weapons of all major powers wouldn't have been enough for the Borg. Starfleet post 359 would design their ships better. Ablative armor, multiphasic shields, quantum torpedoes, the Defiant class. These were all weapons created after the Borg

[@joeswanson733]

but starfleet in the 23rd century had more of a warriors mentality than the 24th cenury and if that mentality just continued. it would not be above the imagination to see them just ram the borg ships. several kamiakze runs with overloaded warp corps is enough to destroy a borg cube.

[@erikdary7101]

"It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war."

[@Crazy-Chicken-Media]

Can't wait to see what a fully retrofitted Starfleet combat core would be like.

[@simonpaterson7205]

Completely unrelated but I just rewatched Past Tense and I think Dr Bashir sums up the whole of DS9 pretty well as he walks through the Sanctuary District and says "Are humans really any different than Cardassians, or Romulans? If push comes to shove, if something disastrous happens to the federation, if we are frightened enough, or desperate enough how would we react? Would we stay true to our ideals, or would we just stay here, right back where we started?" It feels like that is often the question that DS9 is trying to answer, especially through the latter series Dominion War arc.

[@nerdytechs514]

I’m more confused as to how the borg failed to adapt in their second engagement with the federation at sector 001. I’m pretty sure the queen sensed that something went wrong and the cube was not enough, she didn’t bother sending a tactical cube or 2 cubes instead of one.

[@timaahhh]

I love this idea, the question I have, if Starfleet remained militarized would other powers remain as idle as there were? Did passivism stave off further conflict? Or would continued militarization by Starfleet lead to further conflict with say the Romanians. And if there was 70 years of conflict Warm or Hot wars would the Federation be better equip to fight the Borg? Or would they just be a Alpha quandarant version of the Dominion? Would they retain the creativity that allow Starfleet engineers to turn rocks into replicators? And could that organization still defeat the Borg?

[@alphanerd7221]

Funny. "Romanians." Spell check hates Star Trek.

[@timaahhh]

@@alphanerd7221 Ah indeed :).

[@williamclose6732]

What does Spock have to do with it

[@lynngreen7978]

A question no one has ever explained. One cube was at Wolf 359. After regeneration, it proceeded to Earth. It did not Transwarp back to the Delta Quadrant. No support ships came or left. So anyone assimilated by that cube would have still been on *that* cube. How were there Starfleet personnel or Federation civilians who were at that battle in the Delta Quadrant?

[@kbreslin7289]

Except as Borg adapt a highly militarised Star Trek would have causes the Borg to advance significantly ... or am I wrong?

[@Isildun9]

In all fairness, a large contributor to the high casualties at the Massacre of Wolf 359 wasn't just due to the Federations reliance on older, almost obsolete ships (like the Miranda, Constitution refit and Excelsior classes), but also on a tactical sense. At Wolf 359, the Federation fleet attacked the Borg Cube in waves, reminiscent of how soldiers would go over the top in the Great War. This allowed the Borg to be able to focus its fire on a small number of targets at a time, and essentially take the fleet apart, piece by piece, with virtually no real danger to itself. It also made the movements of the Federation ships more or less predictable, while preventing them from taking full advantage of their numbers, maneuverability and overall greater potential firepower. Ultimately, some good did come from this, both on a technical and strategic level. The Federation began investing in what were essentially dedicated combat vessels (like the Akira, Steamrunner, Defiant, Prometheus and Sovereign classes), with stronger shields, more advanced weapons and ablative armor plating. They also adapted their tactics and strategies accordingly. For example, at the Battle of Sector 001, as seen in First Contact, the Federation fleet had adopted a swarm style attack strategy, surrounding the cube, and hitting it from all sides, enabling them to maximize their firepower potential while minimizing their over all casualties, and preventing the Cube from bringing its full power to bear on a single vessel or small group. Ultimately, it stands as a solid proof that while mistakes may have been made in the essentially demilitarization of Starfleet, the 11,000 people lost as a result of Wolf 359 led to the Federation being better prepared for the next conflicts to come, against the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Dominion and the Borg. We learn greater lessons from our failures than from our successes.

[@lonjohnson5161]

Wow. I did not expect this, but the argument seems compelling.

[@DoomFan2010]

I never even connected those dots. Good video concept!

[@ambarcraft4476]

1. We don't know much about the time between Enterprise-B launch and TNG season 1, the events in that time span probably have a much bigger influence on star fleets in the 2360s than some event which happened 70 years earlier. 2. The Federation being more militaristic in the time span mentioned above could have easily lead to several enemies to team up and defeat them. 3. The Borg knew about the federation at least since they assimilated 7of9 as a kid, and maybe even earlier. Had star fleet had better weapons they might have simply come earlier to take them down in time, or - and that's a totally crazy idea now - just sent a fleet of several cubes out of their probably 100s or 1000s instead of just a single one.

[@lionrampant31]

One potential consequence that would be interesting to explore: the Borg assimilate even a handful of Starfleet officers after your 75 years of weapons development.

[@GBRyker61]

The Starfleet massacre at Wolf 359 occured in 2367. Spock dissapeared the following year in 2368. My theory is that Spock knew about what had happened and realized that his proposal to Starfleet in ST6: TUC is what lead to this slaughter. And because of that, he decided to leave the public eye and work on something more positive, re-uniting the Romulan and Vulcan peoples.

[@Veretax]

There's one problem that I have with this. In the episode where Q flings the enterprise-d into workspace. Remember a borg drone tried to access and download information about the Federation and the ship. It is entirely possible that the Borg attacked sooner because they saw the strength of Starfleet it's also possible the Enterprise had been more heavily armed the Borg would have come to 359 with even more destructive capability and it wouldn't have made a difference

[@TheBobcat1978]

You certainly could have asked Spock. A year after Wolf 359 did we learn that Spock was indeed alive and well. But I often wondered his thoughts on things like The Borg, The Dominion and so forth.