ST-21 Super Tomcat Air Wing vs FA-18F Super Hornet Air Wing (Naval Battle 102) | DCS

[@brianwright9514]

I think the prime AIM-152 concept was the Ramjet equipped version

[@grimreapers]

Strangely under-performed in DCS: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f16xcmp3Z7-jaNU

[@brianwright9514]

@@grimreapers was your version the Fox1 version?

[@jaymelton2663]

You should set up a challenge where each side is given the same budget, say $1bn, and see who comes up with the most effective force. Let them pick any plane, any armament, etc - as long as they're in budget, it's fair game.

[@depthsounderdave]

Yes!

[@jaymelton2663]

@@flashgordon6670 fair point - maybe do one per era, warbirds up to current, with budgets adjusted accordingly.

[@localracer]

x20 modified A-4 Skyhawks

[@iancrowley420]

@@flashgordon6670maybe each side starts off with a carrier by default and they use the budget on escort ships and planes

[@rubiconnn]

It'd really put the DOD to shame lol. I feel like low cost fighters like the F16 and the Mig29 would wipe the floor in terms of cost to power ratio as you can get 5-6 F16s or 9-10 Mig29s for the price of a single F35.

[@thegungadfly8930]

Quote Rev. Simba: “why we are on this particular mission, we will never know, but I am certain that the Black Knights shall emerge Victorious once again.”

[@benjamindoolin1483]

One of my favorite videos

[@mfreed40k]

One thing hard to model is the cost reduction per unit with economies of scale. For example F-35s are decreasing in price the more that are made (for various reasons). Assuming the F-14 update proved its worth and possible sales to others countries, that dollar figure per jet and per missile would decrease over time. That being said GR does amazing work with the score board, mods, and quality entertainment, increasing their value.

[@jklmn101]

That would also apply to the F-18, so the question would be a matter of buyer's preference.

[@trolleriffic]

That was one of the problems the f-14 faced - there weren't other countries who wanted it because they weren't using their naval air in the same way. Also it was an older plane with a design that was expensive when new and fundamentally more costly to maintain, especially compared to the Super Hornet. I think the Hornet and Super Hornet get a bit of an unfair treatment because they're not as cool and iconic as the Tomcat, but they're very good planes and the SH in particular manages to be a formidable A2A weapon, very capable at ground attack, and even incorporates "stealth" design features that significantly reduce its RCS - not to the levels of a stealth aircraft but much less than than the Tomcat or Super Tomcat, mainly due to the intakes.

[@mfreed40k]

@@jklmn101 we can see that reflected in the super hornet and the lower associated costs. There is a significant difference in the dollars spent and lost.

[@mfreed40k]

@@trolleriffic it really is a good platform.

[@josephglatz25]

There's one cost factor that the ST-21 would never be able to overcome would be one of maintenance costs. The F-14 needed 40-60 maintenance hours per flight hour, the legacy F/A-18 needed only 20, and the Super Hornet, just 10-15. Of course, over the short term, the ST-21 would have been the better interceptor, as it would likely have reached production by the early 2000s, by which time the longest range missile the Super Hornet could carry would have been the AIM-120C. I'm guessing the Phoenix would still have been compatible for the ST-21, even if the development of the AIM-154 took longer, so the Tomcat would maintain a long range edge until the AIM-260 enters service.

[@trevorday7923]

Super-Tomcats Super-Hornets Supercarriers That's a whooooollleeeeee lotta super right there 👍🏻

[@jimdraven2432]

Can you imagine CAP being on an actual carrier being so supportive to his flight or beautiful humans? There would never be any morale problems on ship! :)😊

[@thystaff742]

Thank you for the work you guys do in creating these theorized scenarios.

[@grimreapers]

:)

[@alanmike6883]

​@@grimreapers Cap. Do you think scenarios from the old ps1 game eagle one harrier attack Is possible on This? Would be interesting for a bunch of missions to get the community into maybe? 😊

[@Notmeeeeeee69]

Redoing this with an even budget would be good but I think MiG-31 vs ST-21 would be fascinating.

[@saintuk70]

Simba doesn't need to do anything, he's the "people's champ"

[@simba1113]

thank you I tried to make it interesting. I had to transverse the battle field at the end and just ran out of gas

[@ADR1fley]

I primarily watch YT on mobile so the scoreboard, even at higher quality, is practically unreadable. Could y'all make it any larger? If needed when larger split blue and red to different corners of the screen.?

[@voradfils]

Agreed. The capability is there but not in use yet. Scoreboard has to use the default DCS message box for technical reasons so upper right corner only, unfortunately.

[@charlesfollette9692]

This shows just how much of an advantage real stealth makes a difference,this was an expensive test

[@nomorerainbows]

How does it show that?

[@nomorerainbows]

@@flashgordon6670 Perhaps, but he was not very clear about it. If that is his point, I agree.

[@nomorerainbows]

@@flashgordon6670 Real stealth can mean a lot of things. Is an Su57 real stealth? Is a B2? What does "real stealth" mean? And by whose standard? A lot of people say the F-35 is not "real stealth" because it is not stealthy from the rear quadrant. The ST-21 was going to have extensive stealthing measures implemented, like the F-15SE prototype. Were either of those real stealth? A lot of knuckleheads on the internet argue that the F-18E/F are stealthy. (They're not) So what is "real stealth?" For my money, really, in US service only the F-117 and F-22 (and YF23) are genuine all aspect stealth aircraft. But if you want to be a smart alec, be my guest.

[@trolleriffic]

@@nomorerainbows An Su-57 is about as stealthy as a Super Hornet - there are RCS-reducing features but it's about an order of magnitude difference which still leaves it much easier to spot than an F-117. The F-35 is stealthier than the F-22 although the Raptor might still have better rearward stealth. ST21 couldn't be stealth because those intakes aren't going to work in a stealth aircraft. For that reason YF-23 wouldn't be stealth according to the strictest definition because certain aspects made the engines visible. B-2 is stealth, as is F-117, F-22, F35.

[@nomorerainbows]

@@trolleriffic An Su-57 is far more stealthy than a super hornet. The F-22 is much stealthier than the F-35, and so is the F-117. The F-35 is stealthier than the B-2 though. You really don't have any idea at all what you're talking about.

[@rocketpunchgo1]

These huge battles are so good. Now do 2x2 A-10 Thunderbolts ̷o̷v̷e̷r̷ through Dubai, guns only.

[@Fl-Pride]

Just have to say that your commentary is so good! Awesome play by play 👍🏼🇺🇸

[@manjisaipoe517]

Something I believe is often missed when looking at Naval fighter tactics is flight range. I worry that due to ASM's the conflicts will begin at much greater distances, so the smaller fighters, having less space for fuel, will lose many hardpoints for tanks. That turns a missle truck into a missle caprice. Peace.

[@AARYN21]

love the vid! i do wish they kept the Tomcat program [fanboy], but the super hornet is VERY impressive!

[@grimreapers]

Nothing wrong with being fanboy. Me also fanboy.

[@JSFGuy]

The fictional tomcat without the mishaps.

[@BeroseneKurner]

Who would have thought that putting a bomber engine in a fighter was a bad idea…

[@Purpose_Bilt]

If you wanna shorten the name of the supers, we call em Rhino.

[@rburke17]

Can you leave a link and install guide for the new Super Hornet?

[@trentvlak]

How hard is it to make a missile on an unlimited budget? seriously. Get that AIM260 out, boys!

[@MarkoDash]

Missiles being able to target missiles might bring an end to the reign of the Acehead, it's a big target and the 31s can't carry many of them.

[@Power5]

Thrust vectoring on the tomcat would likely have never been actually implemented since the already expensive plane would have been even more expensive. Hornet was tested with vectoring as well and it was never used. Same with Eagle and I think the Falcon. They pitched the idea as a possibility, but if chosen I am sure the ST-21 would not have had vector thrust capability. Funny that the super tomcat was too expensive but the super hornet was deemed cheap enough even though it was nearly a clean sheet design compared to the original hornet. But somehow congress was fooled by boeing thanks to Cheney nudging them to ignore Gruman whom he disliked.

[@nomorerainbows]

Whether it would've likely been used or not is irrelevant to the *fact* that the proposed ST-21 had TVC.

[@trolleriffic]

Super Tomcat was too expensive though, and it would have been more maintenance intensive than the Super Hornet. It would have been a capable aircraft but the things it could do well weren't needed anymore so why spend all that money to fly a non-existent mission? People bitch about DoD waste all the time until their favourite plane gets axed, at which point they change their tune and decry what were at the time very sensible choices that have been proven right by history.

[@Power5]

The hornets have received millions or billions to try and achieve what tomcat could do. Soon it will get a missile that can compete with Phoenix. Can only travel as far with a tanker. Can only see as far with an AWACS. So 3 planes to equal a tomcat. Despite tomcat being more expensive than hornet, but not as expensive as the required support for hornet to do what tomcat can do alone.

[@nomorerainbows]

@@trolleriffic ST-21 was a lot cheaper than NATF. The USN got neither, and ended up having to fall back on an emergency band aid called Super Hornet.

[@josephkugel5099]

I see your first paragraph and counter with the F-22 Raptor, the worlds most expensive fighter at the time. I agree 100% with paragraph two.

[@Hcakdot]

Funny story, but the real reason for the Tomcat dimise wasn't cost, Northrop Grumman pissed Dick Cheney off during final negotiations after they had pretty much won the contract, by bumping the price on the Super Tomcat upgrade program to his face during a meeting as they knew they had the better aircraft over the Hornet and he retaliated by pulling the plug in the meeting and stormed out...

[@nomorerainbows]

Yep. Dick Cheney killed the F-14, and even ordered the tooling destroyed so no F-14 could ever be built again once he was gone. Petty, evil man, he was.

[@trolleriffic]

It wasn't just Cheney who killed it. It was the fact that the Tomcat was very expensive, required huge amounts of maintenance, cost a fortune to operate and an upgrade program would still have only resulted in a the Navy flying old planes that had limited flying hours left in them.

[@Stinger522]

@@trolleriffic Yeah, it was a combination of factors. People who miss the Tomcat need to cheer up. We have the F-35 and we'll have the F/A-XX in the future.

[@nomorerainbows]

@@trolleriffic it was literally Cheyney that killed it. The F-14D was a *brand new aircraft and in current production* Stop being completely wrong. It' embarrassing.

[@josephkugel5099]

@@trolleriffic Someday people will stop comparing the cost of an F-14A built in 1974 with hundreds of carrier landings on the air frame to new build Hornets, someday but not today is suppose.

[@prscrystalized3706]

The Tomcat is the Chuck Norris of fighter planes.

[@jmtpolitico80]

So I was just watching GS new video of him with the Euro fighter vs Mig-31 Foxhound and Mig -29 Multi role mission and I had a thought! And I already put it out there to him as well. But just My Personal Opinion but I believe GR and GS are the two best DCS Groups out there, by far it seems. And I do also believe that GS and Simba are probably the two Best all around Pilots in DCS. Like I siad just my opinion... But if maybe you guys can setup a 1v1 Dogfight 3 round and a BVR 3 round fight it maybe THE BEST VIDEO EVER! Now I totally understand you two (GR & GS) do two totally different kinds of missions. But I think it may be a DCS Fan favorite! But now that I am writing you I am thinking why don't we do a Grim Reapers vs Growling Sidewinder and his guys to a Group fight of the Same Thing!?!?! GR vs GS in group format Dogfight 3 rounds and BVR 3 rounds!?!?! But I still would love to see Simba and GS go straight up in a fight! For a couple reasons though, I can't tell how his missions are setup. He says he fights Humans 99% of the time, and I am just curious to see if he is actually that good. And I want to find out if he is Scripting missions to his favor. But I really do think these videos could be Fan Favorites for years to come!!!!! For both sides.... Thanks!

[@Wintelburst]

Betting on missiles over planes usually wins the cost / performance metrics. stealth tho is a different breed altogether.

[@chrisk_nfl4120]

lets go super fun, Typhoon vs Super Tomcat?

[@Eyeofthemourning]

You guys did a great job! Wasn’t the Super Tomcat supposed to have thrust vectoring? I feel that would’ve increased the SF14’s survival rate against the missiles. I’d love to see the SF14 go against the MiG-29K Fulcrum-D.

[@DrDezaro]

Should do this as a tactical battle where there is a flight on each side with half fuel to simulate the initial encounter occurring with both team having CAP in the air and are halfway through the flight. So that fuel endurance is a thing if that initial flight can stay alive until it’s reinforced …

[@Stinger522]

By being the last plane flying, the Super Hornet won this battle by the skin of its teeth. Another advantage of the Super Hornet over the Tomcat is that you can have more of them on a carrier than you could F-14s.

[@kenhelmers2603]

great excersize!

[@fonzmeal6165]

F-15N with AIM-54 vs ST-21 with AIM-152?

[@pitiedvod]

It is not the same without half of the F14s breaking down on the flight deck.

[@forzaelite1248]

This guy Tomcats

[@nomorerainbows]

ST-21s would've been brand new aircraft with all digital systems. Same as the F-18E/F.

[@trolleriffic]

@@nomorerainbows So they'd have cost even more than the Super Hornet and would still have been more mechanically complex.

[@grimreapers]

lols yeh

[@nomorerainbows]

@@trolleriffic Lots of things cost more than S Hornets, and work way better than S hornets too.

[@Bluejuicevelo]

Would it be possible to add thrust vectoring to the ST-21? I'm curious how that maneuverability would affect its survivability

[@SemihG22]

Video idea: Tomcats vs Legacy Hornets but with cost effectiveness into play. From what I've seen on open source, you can run 3 Hornets with the budget for a single Tomcat or something like that. Could we have a scenario with that taken into account?

[@nomorerainbows]

That is a total slaughter because legacy hornets have no way to fight back against AIM-54s. Budget dollars are irrelevant to a tactical fight.

[@SemihG22]

@@nomorerainbows I disagree. Remember, not every Tomcat goes out with 6 AIM-54s. Realistic loadout is 2 at most while you can slap on a lot of AMRAAMs to a hornet. And budget dollars do matter if it provides more aircraft that arent 5th gen and sort of similar in performance. Yes, Tomcat is much better, but could be an interesting test to see how much better.

[@nomorerainbows]

@@SemihG22 In the cold war the F-14 standard loadout was 4 AIM-54, 2 Sparrow and 2 AIM-9 (Plans for AMRAAM implementation were only partially carried out IIRC) Tomcats *NEVER* carried 2 Phoenix missiles, at least, there is no photographic evidence that they did. What difference does it matter how many AMRAAMs a hornet has if the Phoenixes have ravaged them before they ever get a chance to shoot back? In an even numbers BVR fight, even if a Tomcat sqn scored a 25% PK rate with it's Phoenixes, each F-14 firing 4 Phoenixes, there would be no Hornets left at all to even shoot back by the time they got into AMRAAM C-7 range.

[@grimreapers]

Well we have the $values shown on this vid so you can pretty much extrapolate from there?

[@josephkugel5099]

@@SemihG22 Legacy Hornets did not have AMRAAMS, they had Sparrows when they entered service, they also didn't have the fancy brackets that hold multiple missiles so they would be packing 6 Sparrows at best, still want to play this game????

[@russburton7660]

Awesome Hmm. Super Tomcat had Super Cruise this would be an advantage in Fuel Usage

[@therealdebater]

I really do think modern fighter aircraft should indeed have a big, red, 'Fire Everything Now' button. If you have a missile coming for you---from a range of more than 100 miles---and you reckon you're going to be toast very soon. Why not just fire everything you've got? There is at least a chance that another friendly aircraft will be able to guide some of your weapons onto a target, even if, by then, you really are toast.

[@ericx777]

Anyone else want to see Cap commentate a Boxing or MMA fight? Seriously, that would be the shizznizzle! Another great sim guys!

[@falcon9983]

Buddy you guys got me into DCS

[@jimdraven2432]

Just thought of this, the Reapers who are apart of this amazing group entertaining us every day should be recruited by their respective countries to fly drones. My god the kill rate!!!

[@betariffic1]

Did you guys do a battle with st21/aim152 vs Charlie model Fat Amy's in stealth mode?

[@trolleriffic]

It would be a slaughter in Fat Amy's favour.

[@grimreapers]

Wouldn't work, 4th gen can't compete with full stealth. Humans would refuse to fly.

[@tacticaltuna9293]

Scenario request: Canada is upgrading our CF-18s to F35 block 4s and our aging frigates with the CSC version of the Type 26 for the 2030s. How effective would these upgrades be at stopping a simulated Chinese/Russian attack on Canada’s East or west coast?

[@grimreapers]

Cool

[@lohrtom]

I want to see Tomcat vs Tomcat dog fight. Phoenix missiles only.

[@grimreapers]

I heard AIM-54A is exceptional within 3000ft.

[@W1ckedRcL]

The ST21 would've had a MUCH smaller RCS than the original Tomcat. Supposedly comparable or even smaller than the Super Hornet.

[@josephkugel5099]

I don't think it would have been smaller but MUCH better than this, the ST-21 in this simulation is not correctly modeled.

[@W1ckedRcL]

@@josephkugel5099 the ST21's proposed RCS would've been considerably smaller due to the use of composite materials and variations of the airframe, such as canting the vertical stabilizers and creating S shaped air intake ducts. It would've been A LOT smaller. Like I said, about the same or slightly smaller than the Super Hornet. That aside, yeah the modelling here was bad. They do the best they can I think but DCS doesn't have a proper ST21 Mod so they have to improvise.

[@dace0326]

Can we do Simba vs and see what we can throw at him before he loses.

[@josephkugel5099]

Once again the Hornet is proven to be the lesser plane, per the usual they pitted the very latest and greatest version of the Hornet and even armed it with a missile it won't have for years to come against a proposed Tomcat that would have been flying in the late 90s and it was basically a draw, what we learned today was that in order for the Hornet to stand a chance against a Tomcat it must have a two decade advantage in tech and upgrades or its DEAD. I propose a TRUE fight between these two aircraft as it would have been if each was built and entered service in the late 90s. ST-21 Tomcat = AIM-9M, AIM-120C, AIM-54D F-18E/F Super Hornet = AIM-9M, AIM-120C Something tells me this will go very VERY poorly for the Hornets but as a Tomcat fan it will be FUN as Hell to watch.

[@PerryKivolowitz-t1x]

Silly idea: Can one A10 and 2 Apache's kills all 42 armed merchantmen hidden in the middle of the Spanish Armada?

[@danieldelanoval7656]

Thank god we haven’t had to fight any superpower since the hornets introduction.. so yes the hornet (being cheaper) was the correct choice…albeit not as cool lol

[@Purpose_Bilt]

Haven't worked in them have you?

[@danieldelanoval7656]

@@Purpose_Bilt no sir! Just going off of looks.

[@Purpose_Bilt]

@@danieldelanoval7656 all the tomcats definitely look better.

[@Hammergaming-on2wk]

Where can i download the ST-21 please and thank you.

[@grimreapers]

It's on VSN's main website. You can find it through the link in the vid desription.

[@gketchup777]

Cap, I wonder if the ships should fire at the A-A missiles above them? Since they are not small and many anti-ship missile has the same dimensions I imagine they would show up on the ship's radar and be pretty hard to tell if they are falling A-A missiles or anti-ship missiles coming for them from high above. Is there any info on this how it's irl?

[@daniellee5192]

So even that tactics might win the day. Maybe the Big Wing from WW2?

[@dreaminknight]

Should take the D- model, not the B-model against the newes SH.

[@chaseimler5258]

ST-21 carrier group vs Su-33 (carrying R-77-1s or hypersonics) carrier group?

[@grimreapers]

Yup can do.

[@deanayer3822]

I want this to be guns online - alternately release a similar pack of F-22's in to make it a 3-way

[@jhninkin]

can you just put the raptor engines in a tomcat and call it a day?

[@bigcountry5045]

HEY CAP ... I WAS WATCHING A VIDEO THE OTHER NIGHT OF THESE TWO F-16 CREW CHIEFS ( ONE FORMER AND ONE ACTIVE ) THEY WERE FLYING A VIRTUAL MISSION AND THE ACTIVE CREW CHIEF SAID HE HAD BEEN CONTACTED TO DO SOME AUDIO OF WHAT A REAL CREW CHIEF WOULD SAY INTERACTING WITH THE PILOT DURING PREFLIGHT AND HE EVEN DID SOME FOR THE MISSION THEY WERE DOING ... IT WAS REALLY COOL AND ADDED SOME REALISM TO THE GAME .... HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT OF DOING ANYTHING LIKE THAT SINCE YOU KNOW A FEW CREW CHIEFS FOR VARIOUS AIRCRAFT ... I THINK IT WOULD BE REALLY AWESOME !!!!!!

[@simba1113]

lol yeah it could be done but it may not always be that interesting hahaha

[@bigcountry5045]

@@simba1113 HEY SIMBA , HOWS IT GOING ? I THINK IT WAS CASMO'S VIDEO I WAS WATCHING BUT THE CREW CHIEF WAS GOING THROUGH THE FLIGHT CONTROLS " NOSE UP.. NOSE DOWN" " ROLL RIGHT .. ROLL LEFT " IT MADE THE PRE FLIGHT PART BETTER CAUSE IT GAVE US A LITTLE INSIGHT AS TO THE BACK AND FORTH TWEEN PILOT AND CREWCHIEF .. IM SURE THERE IS ALOT OF OTHER BANTER BUT THEY KEPT IT DOWN TO BUSSINESS .... JUST A THOUGHT !

[@jrizos06]

Cap, do you know why missiles that are clearly in the basket tend to nose up and miss in the final moments? Just coding or what?

[@perryax5490]

This needs to be higher up

[@grimreapers]

We'll probably never know, this is hidden in core game. My best guess is that missiles have lost track for some reason. In game the missiles do not have AESA radars in them.

[@jrizos06]

@@grimreapers Interesting - not much you can do if it's in core game coding then, unless they update it at some point..

[@luasmartinez1262]

Super hornets ARE TOO SLOW! How can o e be a fleet interceptor if the bombers you are intercepting are faster than interceptor? The Tomcats could get faster, higher, with more and further. Same issue with the F-35's. Speed limited, limited payload. The fastest with the mostest wins the majority of the time.

[@Editzify]

you know when you say you cant get the missiles to loft actually the guy who made the mig31 mod JSN64 has his missiles to loft above 100 thousand feet and track so maybe you could talk to him and get your missiels to loft

[@voided76]

Hang on. Where do we get the ST21 mod?

[@grimreapers]

It's on VSN's main website. You can find it through the link in the vid desription.

[@Kevin-hb7yq]

Cool

[@Utubesuperstar]

Cap saying the hornet is a damn fine plane is crazy lol

[@Anarchy_420]

Lmao no you thinking it is not based upon a sim is crazy ;) The Super Hornet is an incredibly advanced Plane!👍

[@thetbnrtitanium007]

​@@Anarchy_420Noah was saying that cap does not usually talk good about the Hornet. He typically says things like: it's slow, the tiny eco-saver engines are bad, etc. It was out of the norm that he said the hornet was a damn fine plane and that caught me off guard too

[@nomorerainbows]

@@Anarchy_420 It's mediocre.

[@Anarchy_420]

@@nomorerainbows if you think The Block III Super Hornet is mediocre, it only shows your ignorance or just a fool👍

[@Anarchy_420]

@@thetbnrtitanium007 ah I see, you certainly have a point there😅✌️

[@Kaelland]

So, Super Hornet won because it's powered by Ford EcoBoost engines...

[@grimreapers]

Greta will smile.

[@GlitchyGamers18]

I think the humanoids need to be a bit more valued

[@grimreapers]

Agreed

[@dreaminknight]

Ladies and gents, the production of the Super Bugs finally ends in 2025 with India going with the Rafale 😂. Time to get real fighters back at deck together with UCAVs instead of Strike fighters..

[@vapormissile]

Human viewingtoid reporting.

[@grimreapers]

Sweet

[@byronayala1830]

Vipers vs Hornets? 🤔

[@docg7208]

They should’ve added an ST-21 SQDN to each CVW.

[@Purpose_Bilt]

Another reason they swapped over was aircraft size. With all supers you can fit over aircraft on deck. Where the fighters row use to hold 4 tomcats, we put 6 hornets.

[@Purpose_Bilt]

I'd ask everyone to stop spreading BS on super hornets. I don't like em either, but that doesn't mean they're crap planes. My hatred for them comes from working on them. A thru f models of hornets.

[@trolleriffic]

It's mostly bitter Tomcat fanbois who can't get over the retirement of their favourite plane.

[@Purpose_Bilt]

@@trolleriffic don't get me wrong. The tomcat was the reason I went navy. I love that plane. But the tech in the rhino is crazy. I miss my babies, legacy hornets, but the only thing they have over the Rhino, is the ability to fire rockets.

[@josephkugel5099]

@@trolleriffic That's not it at all, its the BS about WHY the Tomcat was retired and the incessant inability of Hornet fanboys to understand that you can't compare an F14A built in 1974 with hundreds of carrier landings on its air frame to a brand spanking new still wet paint F-18E/F Super Hornet when talking about thing like cost and maintenance.

[@Purpose_Bilt]

@@josephkugel5099 they're not brand new. Lol. There are multiple stricken superhornets already. Corrosion is a massive headache on these. We have a saying. Legacy hornets will be in the junkyards waiting to be called on. Super Hornets will rust out before they get to the junkyard.

[@bitkarek]

is that like a D variant of F14??

[@mateuszby7236]

people just don't bother to like the video for some reason

[@michaeljones6686]

Cap can we get a GR viewington wooington tshirt or hat please

[@grimreapers]

Sure

[@michaeljones6686]

@grimreapers knew i could count on you super cap best cap

[@Maeyanie]

Hm, now that missiles track each other, the Soviet doctrine about firing an R-27T _before_ the R-27R to avoid the T tracking the R's engine may actually be a thing... I'd suggest a video testing that, but it may be too short and boring. If you ever run out of better stuff to do (yeah right) it'd be interesting to find out, though.

[@grimreapers]

I guess we'll start seeing thing like that just through normal battles.

[@zahnatom]

the hornet is .05m²???

[@nomorerainbows]

I seriously doubt that. (A rafale is 2m2)

[@zahnatom]

@@nomorerainbows yeah their gen 4 RCSs are all over the place. i remember them having rafale at 0.5 and eurofighter at 1.5 and now the hornet at 0.05.... maybe it was a mistake and its 0.5 but still, how would it be more stealthy than a eurofighter. makes little sense to me

[@nomorerainbows]

@@zahnatom The F-18E/F is not even remotely stealthy. I think we can all agree on that.

[@mattseller148]

@@nomorerainbows Most estimates put Rafale-M around 0.5m^2 and the Super Hornet is said to be about the same so 0.5-1m^2 is a reasonable estimate.

[@grimreapers]

Slick super hornet is 0.5m². 2.0m² with missiles etc.

[@JayB-bq7hh]

More dogfights mate.............. missle watching gets a bit old !!! Just saying !!! Cheers🍻🍺

[@Anarchy_420]

Thank You Cap!! Every time you do one of my request I can hardly contain my excitement!!🤯 Your the best😁✌

[@grimreapers]

Roger, slowly getting through them lols

[@Anarchy_420]

@@grimreapers lol I greatly appreciate it!

[@christophero55]

This was a great video but there is one thing missing from the scenario that I would have loved to have seen, my favorite thing about the ST-21/ASF-14 and that is the large radome on the Tomcat. The AESA radar in the ST-21 would be larger, more surface area/TI modules, making it more powerful than the radar on the Super Hornet. It would likely have been the most powerful radar on any fighter aircraft in the world. I know Cap/GR doesn't have time to make custom AESA radars, who's abilities would all be speculative, for every fighter. In this scenario though it would have been a key feature of the ST-21 that would have potentially given it an edge against the Super Hornet in this type of fight.

[@grimreapers]

Agreed but not really modellable, at least in the GR version.

[@christophero55]

I figured. I hope it is something, along with thrust vectoring, that you get to explore in a video someday though.@@grimreapers

[@Valorius]

I modeled this in 2002-2003 in NWS Janes Fleet Command, with both F-14Ds/AIM-54C Sealed ESSM and with notional ST-21s with AIM-54C+ vs F-18E/F carrier wings armed with the at the time brand spanking new AIM-120C AMRAAM. In both cases, it was a complete and total slaiughter. Not just in the air, but the F-18 carrier groups could never even get weapons off on the F-14 carrier group, whereas the F-18E/F carrier groups were completely exposed to to massed F-14 harpoon attacks once their air wings were ravaged. An F-14D carrier could take on 2 F-18E/F equipped carriers, and an ST-21 carrier could take on *three* F-18E/F equipped carriers.

[@christophero55]

Interesting.

[@josephkugel5099]

Thank GOD someone else knows the truth, also bear in mind that you were being generous because had the ST-21 program gone forward the F-14 would have received the updated AIM-54D AND would have carried the AIM-120C as well, Hornets don't stand a chance when all the correct parameters are modeled into each aircraft.

[@Valorius]

@@josephkugel5099 The ST-21 would've also carried 4200lbs more internal fuel, had huge LE root extensions like the F-18, and thrust vectoring. So the kinematics and maneuverability would've been off the charts.

[@josephkugel5099]

@@Valorius Agreed, the ST-21 would have mopped the floor with a Hornet and could have most likely held its own in a dogfight against the F-22. I think the total additional fuel carried would have exceeded 4200 lbs, as i understand it would get: Enlarged and re-contoured leading-edge gloves with an additional 2,200lbs of fuel storage each. Phoenix rails become wet wing pylons capable of carrying 300-gallons each.. Ability to carry 425-gallon external tanks on nacelle hard points if it was developed. Existing tank size 280 gallons. If my math is correct that gives the Big Cat 5,290 lbs of extra fuel, factor this in with the more powerful yet more fuel efficient engines and range and loiter times are greatly increased.

[@da_boi_bismarck5950]

fun battle, wonder how different carrier airwings would be if the ST-21 were introduced

[@betariffic1]

A lot more expensive and maintenance intensive

[@mattseller148]

They would be very similar just with ST-21s instead of F-18E/Fs. The two jets are quite similar in the roles they can preform but the ST-21 on paper would have better flight and preformance abilities with having a faster top speed and 3D thrust vectoring.

[@mattseller148]

@@flashgordon6670 That was basiclly my point.

[@dreaminknight]

​@@flashgordon6670until we have a grey situation where visual identification is requested due to RoE...

[@brandonlarsen4542]

@@flashgordon6670 You have obviously forgotten about the first Gulf War and Kosovo.

[@CMDRSweeper]

Simba wanted to be recognized and get credit, so he fired that AIM-9X at the start to achieve that effect : D

[@grimreapers]

Works for me...

[@exidy-yt]

What an insanely sexy battle!! THIS is why I wait for each GR video, cos S like this happens on the regular. 🙂

[@grimreapers]

I love S.

[@exidy-yt]

@@grimreapers don't we all!

[@mrlodwick]

Simba my and the peoples CHAMPION!

[@simba1113]

I always try to please the people

[@andregabrieltimcang8182]

Battle of the Gods

[@pahtar7189]

Cap should have been playing Richard Wagner's Götterdämmerung (Twilight of the Gods) in the background.

[@localracer]

Lovely day for a flyby

[@airprok8328]

Everybody thinks that hornets are so slow, that’s a Misconception, It’s not the fastest plane in the world, but it is a super sonic platform. The legacy bug actually will super cruise at Angels 20.

[@andrewsmall6834]

It's honestly an honour that the super hornet is done up in the Royal Australian Air Force livery.

[@jacobchandler2083]

Lets see carrier battles with super tomcats against russains and whoeverelse. Perhaps even making supertomcats fire lrasm

[@SC92176]

Love to see 18:49 / 42:09 ST-21 Super Tomcat vs FA-18F ACM (Guns only)

[@trolleriffic]

What's the obsession with guns only? Do you know when the last dogfight involving a US aircraft was settled with guns? Or for that matter when the last dogfight with aircraft from any nation was settled with guns?

[@SC92176]

@@trolleriffic It's real simple, spamming missles from 100 miles out, is boring to watch and does not at all show how the aircraft itself can preform.

[@josephkugel5099]

@@trolleriffic Remember the last time some idiot thought dogfights were a thing of the past and we lost alot of good pilots and planes and had to create TopGun to start teaching ACM again??? "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

[@benjaminshropshire2900]

Has anyone ever seriously considered an air launched counter-missile? Particularly for long range intercept missiles like these, that might be viable. It would likely need to be something with modest range (i.e. more than an AIM-9) but at the same time small (and cheap) enough to carry in significant numbers. The idea would be to slash an attackers PK either by direct attrition or by forcing the targeted missile to expend energy evading.

[@wingmenmcnc]

Can you modernize the F4 phantom up to ST 21 standards and fight them like that

[@grimreapers]

Oh man that is cool.

[@cobraglatiator]

oohhhhh super phantom. YEESS.

[@pahtar7189]

A real 2025 fight would involve stealth so any non-stealthy planes (including AWACS and non-stealthy tankers) would be wiped out quickly (as your Taiwan videos showed) with the best stealth winning medium range fights and few dogfights.

[@nomorerainbows]

Longer range IIR missiles are the key to fighting stealth. Such weapons are in development.

[@mattseller148]

@@nomorerainbows Most next generation air to air missiles with long ranges (PL-15, R-77M, AIM-260) are radar guided only. Stealth will be an important factor in aircraft for decades to come. Longer range IR missiles have existed for decades R-27ET being the most well known but they are not very reliable at least compared to radar guided missiles.

[@nomorerainbows]

@@mattseller148 Hence long range IIR missiles being developed. The idea being that an AWACS can put the IIR missile in a useful long range launch basket, and then for WVR terminal homing the IIR seeker takes over. While AWACs cannot specifically target stealth from great distances, it can often track it good enough to maintain a bearing. Or so I am told. The USAF is developing such a missile, Russia has had one for a long time. IIR doesn't give a crap how stealthy a plane is, and is also not dependent on a large heat signature either.

[@trolleriffic]

@@nomorerainbows Stealth involves IR signature reduction so those missiles would still have a harder time against stealth aircraft and AWACS aren't going to pick up stealth targets until they're close enough to pose a danger to it and anything nearby. Long wavelength radars can track some stealth aircraft but theyr'e too big to fit in an AWACS and can't provide good targeting information anyway.

[@mattseller148]

The Raytheon version of the AIM-152 has images of it on F-14s but I don't know if those were mock-ups or real missiles.

[@simba1113]

they were only mod-ups. there was never a built prototype even for testing. basically it was only ever on white paper and the seeker head was based on the aim 120 technology.

[@mattseller148]

@@simba1113 Thanks.

[@DirtyMardi]

I see a lot of people haven’t gotten over the fact that the F-14 was discontinued. It sure is a pretty plane and probably marginally better 1-to-1 than the Superbug, but at what cost?

[@nomorerainbows]

The entire US defense budget is deficit spending of a fiat dollar. What difference does it make? The F-18E/F is mediocre.

[@mattseller148]

@@nomorerainbows F-18E/F preform quit well, they are a good 4th+ generation fighter, just because upgraded Tomcats would have been better at CAP and interception does not mean the Superbug is a bad aircraft.

[@nomorerainbows]

@@mattseller148 They are run of the mill/average aircraft (a lot of people would say not even that). I will never say they are not average, but I also wont say they are anything more than average either.

[@trolleriffic]

@@nomorerainbows They're way more than average and they're not the expensive maintenance hogs that Tomcats were. ST21 never made sense - spending the money on other stuff got things that did the job better for less.

[@Purpose_Bilt]

@@nomorerainbowsdo you work on them or just read what's on the internet? 48 man hrs per flight hour tags 10-12. Size differences, adaptability, maintenance cost, and close up, as much as I love the tomcat, it's not touching the hornet let alone super hornet.

[@aatwinner1377]

Could you do a video on how to do advanced things in the mission editor? Trigger zones and such?

[@grimreapers]

Already done: kzbin.info/aero/PL3kOAM2N1YJdFQl4vNo5CMcv7PrSHpreS

[@NathanBowman96]

I can agree with the "good quality entertainment". I've certainly enjoyed watching since I've found the channel rather recently. Thank you for the things to watch and the things to think about!

[@Maverick0451]

Absolutely brilliant!! Cap I think you nailed it with the analysis. As much as I love the idea of the Super Tomcat, the numbers don't lie, and even if the ST-21's did better, they would have had to kill at almost a 2 to 1 ratio to make it a cost-effective victory. It's like choosing a Honda over a BMW!! The BMW is definitely a sexier machine, but the Honda can do most of the same stuff for less money, just not as pretty or as fast. I hate to say it, but I think they made the right call. Great flying as always Grim Reapers!!

[@craigcarter9513]

This viewington wooington was very impressed by the human pilot skills. 😊

[@geraldmckinley5825]

I know these videos eliminate a lot of dog fighting which would be a threat in real life but the way these missles work it makes me wonder about eliminating a lot of human pilots. Either find a way to launch these missles from drones or maybe some type of helicopter. Literally just fly up, launch then return to ship for reload.

[@cobraglatiator]

American Murder Hornets W (by technicality, the best kind of W)

[@petermarston7124]

Hey I got a quick question where could I get the ST-21?

[@jmtpolitico80]

Thanks Guys! Great video!