St John Cantius: Latin Mass and Novus Ordo | Side by Side

[@Altare_Dei]

When I first posted this video, I had a somewhat naive view of liturgy. Many of your comments have helped me see things from a more mature perspective. Thanks, and sorry if some of my replies were dismissive, uncharitable, mental gymnastics, or gaslighting. I was a Loftonite scared of criticizing the Novus Ordo because I thought it'd make me a radtrad, which is obviously not true. I recognize now that the TLM is an objectively better and more authentic liturgy. Nevertheless, the Novus Ordo is valid, Vatican II is valid, and Francis is Pope. Anyone denying these truths is excommunicated and will still be deleted.

[@gregorycurry2173]

I am from Poland, from Krakow, and here, Novus Ordo in Latin is available every day at the pre-conciliar altar in selected churches.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@gregorycurry2173 That's awesome!

[@mikitymike]

@@Altare_Dei "Loftonite"? That's pretty disingenuous and uncharitable. Michael Lofton is not pro-NO or anti-TLM. In fact he has responded to this very video in which he addresses the concerns with substandard implementations of the ordinary form. His main criticism related to the TLM, like that of the Holy Father, is that many radtrads deny the validity of the NO and foster disunity within the church.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@mikitymike It's alright Lofton, you don't have to use an alt account. I know it's you.

[@mikitymike]

@@Altare_Dei the delusion is strong with this one

[@MrX_117]

I’m a Protestant, who went to a Novus ordo service and nearly didn’t go back to a Catholic Church. Things happened along the way and I ended up going to Latin Mass at this Church. I felt like I was looking into Heaven. I felt what we Protestants like to say the Holy Spirit, but I felt the Holy Spirit in my heart and all around me. It felt ancient, it felt sacred. I felt at peace and I felt like I was at Home. I am now in the process of trying to Join the Catholic Church and God willing making this the parish I will belong to.

[@Altare_Dei]

That's amazing! Thank you for your testimony. The traditional Mass is reviving the Church!

[@sufiameen6093]

Thats how I felt when I went to Catholic Mass. God'Love &Mercy was in the Liturgy. Like with Moses at the Burning Bush, standing on Holy Ground.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@sufiameen6093 That's a beautiful way to describe it! We're so blessed to have the Eucharist

[@brandonedwards1181]

Felt like a place that is timeless didn't it?

[@Altare_Dei]

@@brandonedwards1181 Absolutely!

[@ismaelbernardogalindo369]

This is how the Novus Ordo should be celebrated. Enough of guitars, tambourines, communion in the hand and other modernities

[@ericmadsen7470]

Agreed. You can combine the best of the Traditional Latin and the Latin Novus Ordo. The faithful would be better served with the return of the Latin within the Novus Ordo.

[@Altare_Dei]

Amen!

[@andrewrolwes6034]

Then there should just be a return to the TLM. The new Mass is a work product of Bugnini's liturgy committee. The TLM is the highest form of worship of almighty God ever devised by the Church He founded. On the other hand, the new Mass is like a undergraduate-level group term paper that should have been given a 'C' at best. Cd. Ratzinger deemed it "a banal, on-the-spot product".

[@MiguelVSFrasson]

In the ideal world, "this is how the novus ordo should be celebrated". However, the rubrics added comments, the "president" is allowed (incouraged) to say welcome words and explanations, so the mess is expected. So in the real world, this is really not how the novus ordo should be celebrated, but an exception, just like it is.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@andrewrolwes6034 where did Cardinal Ratzinger say that?

[@mrs.smilson5463]

I have never ever seen a Novus Ordo like that in 55 years 😢

[@johnflorio3576]

I experience a reverently celebrated Novus Ordo every week.

[@MajorMustang1117]

That's what I was thinking. I do think it's important to remember that even the most 'pretty' NO Mass still rejects the Tradition of the Tridentine Mass that brought up faithful Catholics for 500 years. 1500 years, if you count just the general flow of it. The NO can only be a replacement. It's not a fulfillment or reformed version. It's a means of replacing what maintained Roman Catholic faith. No matter what they do, it's still a destroying of Tradition. Which is what we mock Protestants for doing. Even Lutherans maintained the Communion rail. That's how much of a change NO is.

[@Altare_Dei]

You might find one on reverentcatholicmass.com/map

[@beesknees5291]

its sad because they should all look like that one its what was intended

[@beesknees5291]

@@Altare_Dei Love that website

[@gudas930]

Bro if novus ordo was like that there would be literally no division in the church 😂

[@Altare_Dei]

Exactly. I will be making a video discussing this subject soon

[@rtyria]

Some of the original complaints about the NO would have to be addressed however, such as restoring the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the Prayer to the Holy Trinity (before the Orate Fratres) the silent Canon and the Last Gospel. Just in general I am not comfortable with the attitude the Concilium had of just taking whole parts out, as if any part of the Mass could be optional. Well, they did make optional parts which has directly led to the experience of Mass being vastly different from one parish to the next. In fact I consider that to be a fatal flaw. But the most distasteful thing about the common experience of the Mass (for me) has been the indecently hasty 2nd Eucharistic Prayer, which while I was growing up was considered to be forbidden during Sunday Masses, but now seems to be the only one I hear since the lockdowns.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@rtyria I understand your perspective and would generally agree (although I still hesitate to call the NO "flawed"). I honestly do think the 1965 interim missal was a sufficiently balanced, effective reform that kept most of the old traditions, and I think the Ordinariate Mass also serves as a good example of that. I also agree that the missal should be more standardized with fewer "options".

[@catolicodominicano]

Agreed 👍🏻 💯 ​@@rtyria

[@annamarialocurtodesign]

A good Pope Has to fix something and everything will be alright!

[@adrianobauer4939]

If every other novus ordo mass would be celebrated like this, there wouldn't be a controversy/restriction of the TLM because it wouldn't be as popular as it is now. I personally prefer the TLM but I do appreciate that some prayers (like the confiteor and the pater noster) are said by everybody in the NO.

[@kelvinaheebwa2962]

Confiteor isn't said by the faithful in TLM?

[@Altare_Dei]

Agreed! I will be making a video about this soon

[@damnedmadman]

It's actually a hidden deprecation of the priesthood. In TLM the priest leads the people to God, intercedes for them before the Father, because he acts "in persona Christi". Because it was Jesus who offered himself - not the Apostles. It's a clean offering because it's done by God, with God, to God. In NO it's less and less clear. The progressivists keep trying to push it further down. They want everyone to be their own priest and pope, because they hate the special role of consecrated, separated, celibate and holy priesthood. And hence the altar girls, no altar rails, lay lectors and ministers, Communion in the hand, distributing Communion by lay people, the push for "deaconesses" and "priestesses".

[@alessandroarsuffi9227]

​​​@@kelvinaheebwa2962They are said by the faithful only in the Low Mass in dialogue with the priest. In the High and Solemn Mass, this part is pronounced privately by the priest and ministers, while the choir sings the Introit and the Kyrie.

[@kelvinaheebwa2962]

@@alessandroarsuffi9227 Yes. But remember that there's a second Confiteor before the communion of the faithful, that remits venial sins, if said with devotion.

[@codynunez5246]

Thank you for sharing this!! Our church desperately needs this to heal the liturgical wounds plaguing us. I was blessed to be confirmed here a few years ago and called it home for 3 years. St John Cantius pray for us.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@codynunez5246 that's awesome! I will be making a video about this soon

[@Martin2007-nf8ch]

Traditionalist Catholic here who loves both Traditional Latin Mass and Novus Ordo. Also, a church nearby home celebrates both TLM and Latin NO as well. I recognize both as perfectly valid and licit.

[@Altare_Dei]

Agreed!

[@Martin2007-nf8ch]

i disagree with some fellow traditionalists who generalize NO as irreverent or protestant. Ad orientem, traditional vestments, latin, gregorian chant, communion in tongue and kneeling and altar rails are all allowed in the NO. Misconceptions surrounding NO are based on assumptions, misinterpretations and also schismatic behaviour.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@Martin2007-nf8ch absolutely!

[@damnedmadman]

​@@Martin2007-nf8chNo, it cannot be reduced to just the audio-visual aspect. There's a lot more concerns, especially theological ambiguities and downplaying of the priestly and sacrificial nature of the Mass. Read the "Short critical study of the Novus Ordo Missae" by Cardinal Ottaviani. Also note that despite a lot more NT readings in the 3 year cycle of the NO you will never hear the essential verses of 1 Corinthians 11:27-32. They have been deliberately cut out, among other verses, as too hard... In TLM you'd hear it twice a year.

[@Martin2007-nf8ch]

Iam about to read it in full, but novus ordo can be still traditional and there are orthodox priests who celebrate both TLM and NO. And again, both are valid and licit. Plus NO is not meant to be a banal protestant modernistic anti-tradition mass. In fact, i only recieve in tongue and kneeling even in NO and the church nearby home celebrates both NO and TLM. There is no need to cause schism out of favoring one form over another. Schism is a sin against Our Lord. While i really loathe the status quo of so many novus ordo parishes and in fact, i experienced being denied to recieve communion in tongue in a NOM which frustrates me, it does not make me throw the whole NO. Iam aware that there are many modern trashes being upheld by many people inside NO but it does not discredit the NO in whole. I also knew that there are bad fruits such as abusing the communion in hand indult by considering it as a norm especially in COVID (obviously due to lack of belief towards the ultimate truth of the eucharist), denying communion on tongue and kneeling, having issues with ad orientem, liturgical dances, too much ad libs, lack of belief towards real presence, and so many but NO is not supposed to generate modernism, it was always meant to be traditional and even meant to be latin mass. NO can be orthodox and traditional. Orthodox homilies are even found in orthodox NO celebrations. I will admit, iam also a strict traditionalist catholic both in church and when it comes to worldview, even friends may say that iam going extreme like i always complain about many things that are modernistic like modernism in many NO churches and even in worldview as i said. Iam very strict about tradition, dogma and catholic worldview.

[@catolicodominicano]

I think that one of the real problem is that Novus Ordo has been destroyed by modernism. I'm 22 years old and I'm never seen a Parish were they celebrated like that.❤

[@CJ17776]

The Novus Ordo is modernism.

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

@@CJ17776it is no such thing. It is almost entirely a collection of revivals of ancient practices.

[@CatholicEdward]

Great video! Thanks for credit in the description, I was inspired by Mass of the Ages episode 2.

[@Altare_Dei]

Of course! Thanks for giving me the idea and therefore blowing up my channel lol

[@Andrew-gn9qp]

I spent 20 years of my life going to Novus Ordo masses in various parishes and it felt so intellectually and spiritually lacking. The TLM on the other hand always felt more spirituality and intellectually challenging but also more rewarding.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@Andrew-gn9qp so true!

[@Jmodo]

A well done side-by-side! My parish in Colorado Springs practices our Novus Order Mass is this manner and it is what called me back to the Church. We also have a priest who regularly offers TLM and we attend those Masses as well. I feel they are both reverent and beautiful…to feel the deepness of how Our Most Holy Trinity should be worshipped is a blessing

[@Altare_Dei]

Amen! Thanks for sharing!

[@gloriapatri1]

Do you mind telling us which parish that is in CO Springs? I visit family there and would love to know . I know there’s an FSSP parish in Security but that’s kind of far from their neighborhood.

[@lluchadden4040]

I love every Mass, in both forms, that authentically and validly present the Truth of Jesus and the orthodox teachings. I love the Words, the music....all of it. I love anytime spent at any Mass, anywhere in the world. They can be so different. When we respect one another, and every Mass, we respect Jesus and give Him praise and our love and trust. Make Him enough, Jesus is here. Do not sadden Him with divisions among you. Glory be to His Holy Name.

[@Altare_Dei]

Amen!

[@CJ17776]

Orthodox? You mean like when women do the readings in mass? Like when the laity go into the Tabernacle at the novus? Eucharistic ministers touching the body and blood of Christ without consecrated hands. I love your sentiment, and I recognize the novus, but I also live in reality.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@CJ17776 He meant orthodox as in valid, not that it's perfectly reverent every time

[@johnflorio3576]

I love the Mass in either form. In fact, my favorite form/language combination is the Novus Ordo celebrated in Latin.

[@Altare_Dei]

For sure! As one of my TLM priests say, "Every Mass is beautiful!"

[@SteffenBagger]

I actually didn’t know the novus ordo could be so beautiful and in Latin too. This is a liturgy equal to the Latin mass

[@Altare_Dei]

@@SteffenBagger So true! I will be making a video about this soon

[@Leocomander]

@@SteffenBaggerWell except the fact that if you look closer it really isn’t. You have to consider that a lot of the prayers have been stripped out of the New Rite of Mass so they can’t really be equal.

[@NathanMiller-p3o]

@@SteffenBaggerthe foot of the altar prayers gone, the confiteor is changed, the Credo was changed, the offertory prayers gone, Gregorian chant gone, the last Gospel gone, genuflections during the creed gone, introit is gone / replaced with entrance antiphon, a rail to receive kneeling in the tongue gone, and within 200 radius I can only think of 1 high altar that is used to say Mass on 99.9% are table altars. to say they are same is not correct yes the Eucharist is the same but the sacrifice within the Mass is different. God pours graces into the world thru the Mass in my opinion we then should give the absolute best we possibly can

[@sivad1025]

My first time going to mass was at Cantius' latin novus ordo last Summer. It took me months to learn that the Latin NO and TLM are different

[@rtyria]

That is a very common misconception. My parish offers both forms, but stopped offering the NO in Latin many years ago because it is a much more difficult Mass to follow and participate in than the TLM. Almost as if the TLM grew up to accommodate a community with wide disparity in Latin skills, whereas the NO has always existed in a world with high literacy rates and the ability to have written materials, and thus the ability to give written cues for responses.

[@sivad1025]

@@rtyria Why is it harder? I find it much easier to follow than TLM

[@rtyria]

@@sivad1025 It's been over a decade and I was only able to attend a handful of times, but if I remember correctly it was because the majority of people who attended never had any prior experience with Latin and didn't know how to read it or pronounce it. The biggest obstacle for me was that following along involved flipping through the book (standard pew missal which had the chant in the front and the rest of the Mass, save the readings, in the back. For the readings we had to find the English Mass for the day) and that just led to everyone getting lost, so no one for me to copy. For reference, in my parish the TLM was introduced first and the Latin NO a number of years later. The materials the parish has for the TLM everything is in sequence and no one feels compelled to give the responses if they are not comfortable, or sit or stand at specific parts of the Mass.

[@sivad1025]

@rtyria I see. You would probably appreciate Cantius' NO. It's very, very similar to the TLM. They have a custom order of service with the Ordinary sections. Like TLM, they don't print the psalms or lectionary readings (which are in English unlike TLM). Not everyone does the responses, but enough people do that it's not awkward to join. I totally understand your criticism of the page flipping. But tbh, I generally have that issue with the English NO too. Coming from a Presbyterian background where the liturgical responses are printed every week, it feels like an awkward half measure to have these books with everyone flipping around. My biggest hang up with the TLM is that it feels so disengaged that it could easily become an act of habit rather than worship. The Confiteor and Centurion's Prayer (at least superficially) seem much more meaningful when spoken by the people as a whole. In TLM, it's easy to miss the Confiteor which I'm not a fan of

[@rtyria]

@@sivad1025 We do say the Confiteor and Domne Non Sum Dignus as well as the Credo. When we first started the Low Masses were dialogue Masses, but somewhere along the way they stopped doing that, maybe because everyone who was giving the responses switched to the Sung Mass? I dunno.

[@maryshannon7551]

It is a great tragedy that extreme Trads would denounce the new mass entirely. If Jesus is not present in the Eucharist tell me who or what would be drawing non-Catholics to become catholic? Healings and beautiful worship . In the N.O. That is no accident. Jesus is King!

[@dianedohman1807]

Because it reminds them of Protestant services .

[@francismurphy5986]

@@dianedohman1807hi if i wanted to go to n,o church I would just go to a Protestant church ,that’s what the new mass has come too ,Ave Marie 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@dianedohman1807]

@@francismurphy5986 your right , as it is pretty much like a Lutheran service . The one thing different is that we have ordained priests that change the the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ . Still though , its still a NO mass .

[@TrinityDivineMozart]

I certainly never been to St John Cantius the church and prayers look mightly and wonderful. 🎼🙏🎺

[@DonVueltaMorales]

I live 814 miles away from SJC, Chicago, but periodically contribute to support them and aid the souls of the departed, et al. We all can help support them.

[@rtyria]

I can attest that as beautiful as it is in the video it is like stepping into a different world in person. I have only visited a few times, but each time is treasured.

[@j.h.9376]

I appreciate how beautifully they do this NO but definitely prefer the TLM on the left. The TLM is more than just latin, it has more and is more beautiful and imo is more intersctive with the congregation since you can sing it. The NO isnt the same with everyone joining. And we must admit,this is like .01% of NO masses. Almost none are in latin, and few are ad orietem or have this much reverance. If it werent for their practice, their technique with the TLM wouldn't be doing the NO this well. It just is not representative of what is the NO in 99.99% of our parishes. Though i appreciate it could be😊

[@Altare_Dei]

@@j.h.9376 that's fair

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

First time in my life I have ever heard the TLM called more interactive with the congregation. It is certainly not.

[@j.h.9376]

​@@WinstonSmithGPTThat's your opinion. I wildly disagree. The TLM is wayyyy more interactive for me. It is the only liturgy that has allowed me to enter in, see the beauty, and learn each movement and it's meaning. The NO often feels like some sorta kindergarten follow the leader at most churches because they are done so poorly. This one is presented very beautifully but the vast vast majority are not and are not this reverant. These are my opinions and experiences. I wish I did have an extremely reverant NO. I have had a pastor for a short while thst did his NO more reverantly than any I had seen but that's because he also did the TLM and preferred it😅 Either way you cannot assert the TLM is not more accessible because it certainly was for me.

[@minui8758]

This is a really charitable and excellent version of this format

[@Altare_Dei]

thank you!

[@ericmadsen7470]

Both are legitimate and both are beautiful in there own way.

[@Altare_Dei]

Amen

[@O_Rei]

From Peter Kwasniewski on “reverent Novus Ordo’s”: Lofton has just posted a video in which he "compares" a unicorn Novus Ordo (via St John Cantius) with a typical Latin Mass, and says: "Look: they're basically equivalent! Your typical Catholic would think he was going to a TLM when it was, say, the Oratory doing the Mass of Paul VI really well!" That may well be true, for those who judge only by appearances, and who happily find themselves regaled by good taste. But: 1. Lofton fails to acknowledge that Paul VI had no intention that the Novus Ordo be celebrated this way. Paul VI led the way himself with 'versus populum' and the vernacular already in 1965, 4 years before the NOM, and in 1969 bade a melancholy farewell to Gregorian chant, a sacrifice worth it (he said) for the sake of reaching Modern Man. The NOM was released before any official chant book was even ready for the oddball who might have wanted it. By 1974, when Solesmes published a Graduale Romanum for the NOM, the cause of chant was pretty nearly dead. Finding a place for it in the modern rite has been a steep uphill battle ever since, as all conservative church musicians know. 2. He fails to acknowledge that his own hero, Pope Francis, cracked down on Cardinal Sarah's promotion of 'ad orientem', and that Francis's "party" is consistently anti-ad orientem. They do not want it back; they do not want the Latin language, coherent chant (Ordinary & Propers), communion kneeling and on the tongue, or any of the rest of it, except as occasional window-dressing to showcase the "option-rich" Novus Ordo ("it slices, it dices..."). [Interestingly enough, Pope Francis himself, with Roche et al., seems to think the theology of the new rite is different, and that THIS is why everyone needs to "get with the program." Is he mistaken? If so, why won't Lofton call him out on that? But if he's wrong, and there is no big difference either theologically or aesthetically between the old and new rites, then the rejection of the TLM is based on an error. Not a great spot for a hyperpapalist to be. And don't give me this garbage about "It's not a problem with the TLM, but with bad traditionalists." If that's your argument, then I welcome the shuttering of thousands of NOM churches where the pews are filled with bad Catholics who dissent from far more Church teaching than trads do.] 3. WHY, if the Novus Ordo is so great, and so alike to the TLM, has it looked radically different from day one-and still does, almost everywhere? Lofton says: "I would agree: We certainly need to see some better Novus Ordos." Let me help you to understand why we haven't seen them. It has to do with the modern rite's very principles, its architecture, its options and "inculturation," together with a notorious lack of effective guidance from the Vatican, especially in purging it of abuses. (I once documented that the Vatican had called for a cessation of the 'habitual use' of EMHCs about ten times. Did they go away?) We've had DECADES of handwringing, from Paul VI through JP2 through BXVI through Francis, all saying how abuses must stop-and yet they continue in more than a few places; and worst of all, mediocrity, banality, and anthropocentrism continue to dominate nearly everywhere, as congregations generally diminish throughout the West. 4. 𝐂𝐨𝐦𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐦𝐨𝐬𝐭 𝐢𝐦𝐩𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐭 𝐩𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐭 𝐨𝐟 𝐚𝐥𝐥: Lofton fails to acknowledge that "smells and bells," as important as they are, are only, quite literally, the surface of the matter. The textual, rubrical, ceremonial, and yes, theological differences between the two rites are numerous and profound, as I have carefully documented in my book "The Once and Future Roman Rite." (The Mass of the Ages Episode 2 visually dramatized this point for millions of people, in regard to the Order of Mass, but the same could be done for every single page of every "reformed" liturgical book.) It's as if Lofton's video had already been thoroughly refuted years before it was even made. Indeed, back in 2021, I published a piece at The Remnant that reads like a response to his video: 5. His take reminds me of Cavadini, Healy, and Weinandy, whose positions were refuted in the book "Illusions of Reform," but who refuse to engage their critics; of Andrew Likoudis, who keeps repeating bad scholarship long since discredited; of Mike Lewis, who specializes in slinging soundbites as shallow as they are brief. I think at this point there is no longer any doubt that Michael Lofton is one of the most dishonest and misleading voices in the Catholic internet world. I can see why Cardinal Zen warned people away from him. I would prefer not to post the video in question here, as that would only swell the numbers of viewers and lead to more viewers being deceived by it. If you really must do an extra special Friday penance, you know where to look for ML's stuff: "Passion & Ideology," I mean "Reason & Theology." A last bit of advice: You can try to engage ML in the comments, but your words will probably be deleted, and sooner or later you'll be banned, just as most trads I know have been banned by that insecure fellow. (Now taking bets now on how long it will take before he has posted an hour-long "refutation" of this FB post.)

[@oliveri9407]

@@O_ReiWow bro, you should publish this as a paper

[@O_Rei]

@@oliveri9407 There’s a book he wrote addressing pretty much the whole “but, but a reverent No!” argument: look up “The Once and Future Roman Rite”

[@wafers3d]

AMAZING WORK! thank you so much brother - let's continue to foster tradition and UNITY in the Church, always and only to lead us to Christ more fully in faith, hope, and love!

[@Altare_Dei]

Amen

[@launchthemissile4467]

This video is the best example to show the weaknesses of the novus ordo, even if it's celebrated like this. Apart from the fact that it is nowhere celebrated like this and they still use so many details that officially don't belong to it. Thank you for sharing and showing it!

[@MASEREKAPRAISE]

@@launchthemissile4467 Here the example of norvus Ordo is far better from what i see and attend, beloved people have made fun With Mass 😥😭....even if we are in vatican 2 atleast let us respect Mass

[@manfredcaranci6234]

The daily Mass broadcast on EWTN is very close to what the NO looks like at St John Cantius.

[@emmanuelkaosiskchukwu3482]

I don't know if they're offering the new mass or traditional mass, or they made new mass of their own 😂 Offer the New mass or stick to the Traditional latin mass. The New mass is sick because of the doctrines that came with it. Then you dare to mix the way the new mass is said with the way the traditional mass is said. This is another New mass II. Shuuu! 😅

[@O_Rei]

From Peter Kwasniewski on “reverent Novus Ordo’s”: Lofton has just posted a video in which he "compares" a unicorn Novus Ordo (via St John Cantius) with a typical Latin Mass, and says: "Look: they're basically equivalent! Your typical Catholic would think he was going to a TLM when it was, say, the Oratory doing the Mass of Paul VI really well!" That may well be true, for those who judge only by appearances, and who happily find themselves regaled by good taste. But: 1. Lofton fails to acknowledge that Paul VI had no intention that the Novus Ordo be celebrated this way. Paul VI led the way himself with 'versus populum' and the vernacular already in 1965, 4 years before the NOM, and in 1969 bade a melancholy farewell to Gregorian chant, a sacrifice worth it (he said) for the sake of reaching Modern Man. The NOM was released before any official chant book was even ready for the oddball who might have wanted it. By 1974, when Solesmes published a Graduale Romanum for the NOM, the cause of chant was pretty nearly dead. Finding a place for it in the modern rite has been a steep uphill battle ever since, as all conservative church musicians know. 2. He fails to acknowledge that his own hero, Pope Francis, cracked down on Cardinal Sarah's promotion of 'ad orientem', and that Francis's "party" is consistently anti-ad orientem. They do not want it back; they do not want the Latin language, coherent chant (Ordinary & Propers), communion kneeling and on the tongue, or any of the rest of it, except as occasional window-dressing to showcase the "option-rich" Novus Ordo ("it slices, it dices..."). [Interestingly enough, Pope Francis himself, with Roche et al., seems to think the theology of the new rite is different, and that THIS is why everyone needs to "get with the program." Is he mistaken? If so, why won't Lofton call him out on that? But if he's wrong, and there is no big difference either theologically or aesthetically between the old and new rites, then the rejection of the TLM is based on an error. Not a great spot for a hyperpapalist to be. And don't give me this garbage about "It's not a problem with the TLM, but with bad traditionalists." If that's your argument, then I welcome the shuttering of thousands of NOM churches where the pews are filled with bad Catholics who dissent from far more Church teaching than trads do.] 3. WHY, if the Novus Ordo is so great, and so alike to the TLM, has it looked radically different from day one-and still does, almost everywhere? Lofton says: "I would agree: We certainly need to see some better Novus Ordos." Let me help you to understand why we haven't seen them. It has to do with the modern rite's very principles, its architecture, its options and "inculturation," together with a notorious lack of effective guidance from the Vatican, especially in purging it of abuses. (I once documented that the Vatican had called for a cessation of the 'habitual use' of EMHCs about ten times. Did they go away?) We've had DECADES of handwringing, from Paul VI through JP2 through BXVI through Francis, all saying how abuses must stop-and yet they continue in more than a few places; and worst of all, mediocrity, banality, and anthropocentrism continue to dominate nearly everywhere, as congregations generally diminish throughout the West. 4. 𝐂𝐨𝐦𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐦𝐨𝐬𝐭 𝐢𝐦𝐩𝐨𝐫𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐭 𝐩𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐭 𝐨𝐟 𝐚𝐥𝐥: Lofton fails to acknowledge that "smells and bells," as important as they are, are only, quite literally, the surface of the matter. The textual, rubrical, ceremonial, and yes, theological differences between the two rites are numerous and profound, as I have carefully documented in my book "The Once and Future Roman Rite." (The Mass of the Ages Episode 2 visually dramatized this point for millions of people, in regard to the Order of Mass, but the same could be done for every single page of every "reformed" liturgical book.) It's as if Lofton's video had already been thoroughly refuted years before it was even made. Indeed, back in 2021, I published a piece at The Remnant that reads like a response to his video: 5. His take reminds me of Cavadini, Healy, and Weinandy, whose positions were refuted in the book "Illusions of Reform," but who refuse to engage their critics; of Andrew Likoudis, who keeps repeating bad scholarship long since discredited; of Mike Lewis, who specializes in slinging soundbites as shallow as they are brief. I think at this point there is no longer any doubt that Michael Lofton is one of the most dishonest and misleading voices in the Catholic internet world. I can see why Cardinal Zen warned people away from him. I would prefer not to post the video in question here, as that would only swell the numbers of viewers and lead to more viewers being deceived by it. If you really must do an extra special Friday penance, you know where to look for ML's stuff: "Passion & Ideology," I mean "Reason & Theology." A last bit of advice: You can try to engage ML in the comments, but your words will probably be deleted, and sooner or later you'll be banned, just as most trads I know have been banned by that insecure fellow. (Now taking bets now on how long it will take before he has posted an hour-long "refutation" of this FB post.)

[@Altare_Dei]

@@O_Rei not reading all that

[@O_Rei]

@@Altare_Dei P. Kwasniewski is easily among the top 3 most prominent defenders of the Old Rite and easily among the most knowledgeable liturgists writing in English today, so I’d say it’s your loss 😃

[@alphonsusbernadette2698]

Thank you so much, Dr. K. This sums it up perfectly! The Novus Ordo crowd accuses traditionalists of clinging to the old rite for the 'smells and bells', and yet here they are, defending this almost unheard of NO Mass because it reminds them of the 'smells and bells' of tradition. Let's pray for a return to our beautiful TLM heritage and put an end to the terrible turmoil afflicting Holy Mother Church 🙏

[@alphonsusbernadette2698]

​@@Altare_Deiwhat a shame. I think you would find it beautiful! Pax🙏

[@faithful451]

@O_Rei great post.

[@piotrborowiak5317]

It is beautiful. Thank you very much!

[@Altare_Dei]

It really is!

[@trevwilliams2138]

In an interview, by the St. John Cantius pastor (this is 20 years ago) he said that the Novus Ordo in Latin, including Ad Orentum, is the MOST POPULAR MASS that they have on Sunday. They also have a Latin Low & High Mass, and the Novus Ordo in English.

[@Altare_Dei]

Makes sense. It's pretty rare

[@djpalindrome]

It’s ad orientem

[@MegaTheman1988]

Awesome!

[@Altare_Dei]

@@MegaTheman1988 thank you!

[@MajorMustang1117]

Where did you find a somewhat faithful NO Mass? I have been to Catholic parishes from California to North Carolina, to Iowa, to Georgia. Etc. I've never seen a NO have near any traditional elements.

[@Altare_Dei]

Most traditional NOs are celebrated at TLM parishes, such as this one. However, traditional elements are starting to become more common. I will make a video about this soon

[@aerobeats9462]

In Cedar Rapids (Iowa) we have a TLM Parish named St. Wenceslaus, while it doesn't offer a traditional NO it does latin low mass all week and on sunday a latin high mass

[@d.a.tsun5104]

@@aerobeats9462 Is Traditional NO (almost) same as low mass in TLM? I grew up in South East Asia in the 70s-80s. The masses I attended were NO but the incensing of the altar was always done. I missed that when I moved to the US in early 90's. Even the 'latin' mass I went to once didn't use incense.

[@johnflorio3576]

Come visit the Archdiocese of Cincinnati. Visit a church called Emmanuel in Dayton. At Emmanuel, the NO will lift your spirit and blow your mind.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@johnflorio3576 I've seen photos. It's beautiful!

[@ericllesjohn]

Good morning! Pleasure, Hail Mary Puríssima. I'm a Brazilian boy and I was delighted when you @Altare_Dei compared the Latin/Gregorian Mass, of the apostles, which was celebrated during the decades of the Rite of Semper of the 1962 Missal, to the Paul VI Novus Ordo Mass. If I'm going to be a priest, I'll only go if I'm going to celebrate the Novus Ordo Mass the way you posted here. I would sincerely like to talk to you about respecting the current crisis in the Church. (Note: I don't know how to read and converse in English, lol. But everything was translated even in the comments lol.)

[@G.B.P.]

If they are “so similar” why can’t we just stay with the old one?

[@Altare_Dei]

@@G.B.P. it's a lot more realistic and feasible to enforce reverence in the N.O. than to have everyone switch to TLM

[@G.B.P.]

Wanna bet money on that?

[@Altare_Dei]

@@G.B.P. which is more likely, slowly incorporating traditions into the current liturgy or mandating every church switch to the 62 missal tomorrow? From a logistics perspective.

[@A_Guido_Lost_In_The_Woods]

I love both the TLM and the NO. To answer the question, I would say that is what Christ's Church has infallibly taught. The liturgy has developed a great deal since the Last Supper. If you read the Didache, you will see there were expressions and sayings in the first and second century mass that the TLM does not follow to the letter. What about the sign of peace? St. Justin Martyr wrote of "saluting one another with a kiss" in his description of the mass in the second century. We do not see that in the TLM. My point is that the development of the mass has and will change over time. We must still remain united to Christ's Church. I hope this helps! I wish we had more reverent masses, too! Let's pray for it.

[@MatthewThomas-ye1ei]

@@Altare_Dei re-familiarizing the Catholic world with the Latin language is unfortunately would be a massive undertaking.

[@dukextech]

Novus Ordo in latin is very rare

[@Altare_Dei]

@@dukextech rare, but starting to become more common

[@dukextech]

@@Altare_Dei Thanks God for that

[@KingCatsTube]

My parish celebrates the Novus Ordo in Latin, a sung, chanted mass.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@KingCatsTube that's beautiful!

[@gregorycurry2173]

I am from Poland, from Krakow, and here, Novus Ordo in Latin is available every day at the pre-conciliar altar in selected churches.

[@twosuns5835]

The Mass should never have been changed. Our kingdom, as Catholics is not of this world so why then changed our precious, most sacred, Holy Latin Mass to fit in with it? Not for me, I will just keep going to the traditional Latin Holy Mass and keep having my daily relationship with Heaven as I am supposed to do being Catholic. God Bless everyone reading this 🙏

[@Altare_Dei]

God bless!

[@ritaeslinger7011]

I agree with you. If Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, why change His teachings and why change how we worship Him?

[@nicholasholiday941]

@@ritaeslinger7011 The m N Mass has changed many many times beyond its original elements since it was first celebrated. The prayers , the vestments, the calendar, the rubrics, the liturgical language, the methods of receiving the Eucharist, the many latin rites-Roman, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Dominican etc etc. (which anyone who has really studied it knows). People are entitled to their preferences but the notion of that it has not changed is simply not true . What is true is that it did not change for the most part after the Council of Trent concluded in 1563, until the reform of Holy week in 1955, and most significantly since Vatican II. Do the math: The tridentine liturgy is less than 400 years old in the life of an institution that is over 2000 years old. It is not the Mass of the ages-it is the tridentine liturgy.

[@ShepherdoftheForest3018]

@@nicholasholiday941 Most Novus Ordo Masses are not reverent. They lead to indifference and loss of faith. Including mine. They’re watered-down, and Protestantized.

[@scotashton766]

original language was Greek not Latin---just saying--

[@elisabethb.2698]

Thank you for this amazing video 🙏

[@Altare_Dei]

Thank you for the love! Much appreciated

[@joaofelipe2026]

I have never seen the Novus Ordo been celebrated like that here in Brazil

[@Altare_Dei]

It's rare, but it's starting to become more popular. Praying for Brazil 🇧🇷

[@gregorycurry2173]

I am from Poland, from Krakow, and here, Novus Ordo in Latin is available every day at the pre-conciliar altar in selected churches.

[@lisawatson878]

Both are valid and both are beautiful!! ❤ Thank you, Jesus!!

[@PiusPaladin]

Comparing a unicorn NO and the Tridentine Mass aesthetically doesn't cut it. The true Lex Orandi is within the actual rubrics, prayers, readings, gestures, sacramentals, rituals, and orations of the respective missals. Sure the unicorn NO looks nice but it's just dressing up a missal that on paper looks like something entirely new compared to the Rite of our Fathers. (NB im not trying to start conflict or invalidate the Pauline Missal...i just want people to see the Roman Rite as something beyond aesthetics. Please use charity before calling me a schismatic 😁)

[@Altare_Dei]

I wouldn't say it looks entirely new, as the N.O. did restore a number of older traditions, but I would like to see certain Tridentine prayers restored as well, like the prayers at the foot of the altar and final gospel

[@amdg672]

​@@Altare_Dei"restore a number of older traditions"- Can you please name a few?

[@PiusPaladin]

@@Altare_Dei Agree to disagree here friend. This line of thinking is just post concilar liturgist propaganda; numerous contemporary liturgical scholars have successfully rebutted the claims that the Pauline Mass was an authentic and organic development or restoration in the liturgical tradition of the Roman Church. One of the biggest wounds to the integrity of the Novus Ordo is that it was literally crafted by a committee including numerous non-Catholics who wanted to remove all stumbling blocks to Protestants and others. The head of that committee was found highly suspect of Freemasonry himself and disgracefully dismissed following the New Rite's promulgation. The fact of the matter is up to 1962 the Roman Rite had successfully been maintained and curated organically since its formal codification in Quo Primum. Even Pope St. Pius V wasn't looking at making something new when he promulgated that encyclical; he moreso was reigning in the legion of liturgical abuses and strengthening the Rites that had proper pedigree and could prove their authenticity and antiquity. At the end of the day the Mass of Paul VI is an anomaly in the Roman liturgical tradition and a true restoration of liturgical orthopraxis will look to the Tridentine Mass to reform the Roman Rite.

[@josehenri3384]

@@PiusPaladin The quote about Bugnigni wanting to remove any stumbling block with the Protestants in the liturgy is a lie, because this phrase never existed. He speaks in one of the Good Friday prayers for the return of all Christians to the Catholic Church, instead of using the words "schismatics" and "heretics", it was decided to use a positive formula, it was approved at the Consilium by de Castro Mayer (friend of Lefebvre) since it was a recommendation made by Saint Thomas Aquinas in his works, therefore a reform of prayer in the purest Catholic tradition and orthodoxy. The sentence that this would apply to the liturgy in general is a work of forgers, who added and deleted words, if you read the original source in Italian, it has nothing to do with it. Also there is no evidence that Bugnigni belonged to Freemasonry, not even the slightest hint, it is a legend forged by the sedevacantists. At the Council of Trent there were Protestant observers who had the right to debate and make proposals, at the 1964 Liturgical Commission there were 254 Catholic prelates, and 6 Protestant observers from different and opposing traditions (Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist), they had no right to speak. Finally, all the prayers of the Tridentine Mass (that is, 100% of the Mass with the exception of the Canon, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei, present in the current rite) were invented in the Middle Ages. The Tridentine Mass contains none of the prayers of the Leonian sacramentary, the oldest sacramentary of the Mass known to us, which describes the roman pontifical liturgy of the fifth century.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@amdg672 the universal prayer, old testament reading, responsorial psalm

[@captredbeard]

Had the incredible privilege of attending a high mass several weeks ago at St. John Cantius while on a business trip. Absolutely incredible. Knowing what I’m missing at my normal NO parish makes me want to pack it all up and move to Chicago.

[@Altare_Dei]

So true! Maybe you can find a TLM in your area. latinmassdir.org has a bunch of them all over

[@captredbeard]

@ none (except an sspx parish) in my state 😢

[@Altare_Dei]

@@captredbeard oof that sucks. Maybe you can at least find a reverent Novus Ordo (although I know how unusual those are)

[@j.m.2568]

The problem with the NO, aside from the lack of depth, is that one is forced to look for a "reverent Novus Ordo". The NO opens itself to abuse and shallow spirituality. Shia LaBouef said it best when he said that thing about how he doesn't want to feel like he's being sold a used car

[@christophersalinas2722]

Things weren’t all sunshine and roses before V2

[@Altare_Dei]

@@christophersalinas2722 exactly

[@katholischetheologiegeschi1319]

"Lack of depth" Would've love to see you in the 3. Century liturgy lol

[@craftexx15]

​@@katholischetheologiegeschi1319 There is an asymmetry here, you just ignore: 3rd century is BEFORE the liturgical development, the church did as soon as she could (because persecution ended). Novus Ordo is AFTER that. You can't compare those two...

[@Falangista2008]

​@@christophersalinas2722One of the biggest lie ever

[@ryobibnd8276]

Top, klingt Mega! Gott würdig. Sollte man wieder einführen

[@LairNobleza]

Latin Mass all the way 😍

[@Altare_Dei]

I recently started serving at TLM! My next video will be about that

[@ernesto1953]

Thanks !

[@JosephMarxer]

Did you that it is possible to add the asperges in the Novus ordo

[@Altare_Dei]

Probably

[@alessandroarsuffi9227]

In that case, the Asperges replaces the penitential act. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis.

[@josehenri3384]

hi! of course! Asperges Me is provided in the new rite as an alternative to the Confiteor of the beginning (note that in a tridentine mass sung the faithful never say the Confiteor, it is an indult that was added by the Ecclesia Dei commission, but is not provided for by the Missal). In this case, in the new rite, the priest proceeds to the Asperges Me and then gives the absolution of venial sins (Misereatur nostri omnipotens Deus.. etc). God bless you !

[@RobertoAngelFloresAngulo]

Hello! wich is the name of the gregorian chant in 0:39 to 1:13?

[@Altare_Dei]

@@RobertoAngelFloresAngulo i don't know tbh

[@NovisM]

Except you will NEVER see a Novus Ordo like that, except at maybe ten places around the world, this one included. Paul VI. himself made it clear he doesn't want Latin, Gregorian chant and ad orientem, contrary to what the council said. And we see consequences every day.

[@ConvallariaMajalis-zf5on]

So true, my native country is considered to be devoutly Catholic, but I have never ever seen such a NOM! Yet another thing is the poor quality of the diluted teachings…

[@Altare_Dei]

@@NovisM If you go to a Papal Mass in Rome, there's plenty of Latin and chant. Pope Francis himself has occasionally celebrated ad orientem

[@panadolf2691]

Any Roman Catholic priest can celebrate NO in latin without asking anyone.

[@debrarouselle9761]

My brother does the Latin mass; we need to go back to this s! So much has been lost in reverence with the changes!

[@charlesvanneste2834]

A latin novus ordo is like the TLM but without all the blessings and prayers, I don't see the point, just do the TLM

[@Altare_Dei]

Enforcing tradition in the NO is a lot more realistic and feasible than having everybody go back to TLM altogether

[@tomws5594]

"I don't see the point to celebrate the NO": among others: a much broader lectionary, ancient antiphons and hymns that have been restored in the liturgical books of Saint Paul VI (the pre-conciliar breviary still uses the hymns written/highly altered by Pope Urban VIII, while the new Breviary has restored the primitive texts and melodies), the Mass is sung entirely in the missal of Saint Paul VI, etc.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@tomws5594 I wish more churches sang the proper Antiphons. They're beautiful. That's why I like the Ignatius Pew Missal

[@samuelwalker1410]

​@@Altare_Deihow is it more realistic and feasible? I would venture to guess most priests who know enough Latin are trained in the TLM, not the Latin NO.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@samuelwalker1410 Most priests study Latin in seminary, but that doesn't mean they're trained for TLM.

[@paulnebeling2068]

I am impressed by this video. They took away ALL of the distractive differences between the 1962 Missal and the Novus Ordo to present a truly valid side-by-side comparison OF THE LITURGIES. When all is said and done, are those differences significant? I will put my trust in the Holy Spirit that was surely present during Vatican II. I believe that Jesus is still watching over His Church. I can't call the NO invalid or even "lesser" anymore. Not to say every parish gets it to the level that this parish does, but AS WRITTEN, the NO is a valid Mass. Thanks be to God and the producers of this video.

[@Hawk5151]

The good thing about the TLM is that there is no variation, therefore the priest can’t screw it up by making up things in the middle of the mass.

[@nonakabyrd5759]

True, but if Latin was banned, both if these would be illegal 😢

[@josehenri3384]

@@nonakabyrd5759 Hi ! There is a difference between disability and illegality. Illegality means that the priest does not respect the rubrics (gestures) and prayers of the Missal. Invalid means that the words of the substance of the sacrament are not said: therefore the sacrament does not take place. The substance of the sacrament of the Eucharist was fixed by dogma long before Vatican II, it consists in saying "This is my Body" and "This is my Blood" (became "the Chalice of my Blood" in the two missals), even if the formulas of consecration are longer, it’s that effective part that counts. Whether in Latin or in the vernacular, the Council of Trent never obliged the Mass to be in Latin, the canon in question condemns the false proposition that the Mass should never be said in Latin, but not the reverse. And for good reason, the canons of the Council of Trent apply to the universal Church, and not exclusively to the Latin Church, yet the Eastern Catholic Churches celebrated in other languages: there is no dogmatic foundation to forbid the vernacular. God bless you

[@samuelwalker1410]

The SSPX has valid Masses. See you there?

[@josehenri3384]

@@samuelwalker1410 hi ! I have just explained the difference between validity and lawfulness. The validity of a mass, fixed by Catholic doctrine, which achieves the fullness of the sacrament, depends on saying "This is my Body" and "This is my Blood", it does not seem very complicated, and 99.99% of the masses of the new rite are valid. On the other hand, what is certain is that 100% of the masses of the SSPX are illegal, because they have no recognition of the Catholic Church: the Russian schismatic "Orthodox", for example, also celebrate valid masses because they are in the Byzantine rite (recognized by the universal Catholic Church) and that their Church has an uninterrupted apostolic succession, however, they are not Catholic masses because they are not in communion with the Pope. It is the Pope who decides who is in communion with him, and not the SSPX which has no faculty in this field (legally, the SSPX does not even exist, it is a set of civil associations declared in different countries). However, attending an illegal mass does not satisfy the Sunday obligation, and constitutes a mortal sin. If this has ever been the case, even if you were not aware of it, I invite you to ask for God’s forgiveness in the sacrament of confession. God bless you

[@catolicodominicano]

I've never seen novus ordo celebrated like that I live in Caribe Dominican Republic. The only place they actually respect a little the catholicity of mass, it's when I go with the Heraldo's del evangelio.

[@Liliana_Cavz]

Thank you so much for doing this 🙏 I was looking for a Novus Ordo vs TLM video a few months and I was sad to see so many negative views of the Novus Ordo. I’m so happy to see this video 🤍✝️🙏

[@Altare_Dei]

@@Liliana_Cavz thank you! I wish people didn't trash the N.O. so much

[@jor.ctes.9748]

Buen video, ¡me suscribo! Saludos desde Argentina

[@Altare_Dei]

¡Gracias!

[@lozspennymoor]

Why oh why can't this be the normal in all our chuches

[@Altare_Dei]

@@lozspennymoor that's what I'm saying

[@christophersalinas2722]

Lib Bishops

[@DaveS859]

“the Novus Ordo represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXII of the Council of Trent” …am I allowed to quote Church cardinals who were looking at the latin rubrics of the New Mass ?

[@Altare_Dei]

Yes. But those Cardinals recognize that it's still valid and don't refer to it in ridiculously blasphemous ways contradicting Church teaching.

[@AshleyWade-vq9ny]

Why does there have to be two masses? Shouldn’t there only be one true mass?

[@favourchisom1744]

It is one mass, it is the same

[@shelleydavis7985]

Please find and show us any examples of an irreverent TLM video with egregious liturgical abuses. The issue is that while the NO presented in this video is certainly well done, it is simply not the norm.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@shelleydavis7985 that's true. I will be making a video about this soon

[@rafexrafexowski4754]

I have been to irreverent TLMs here in Poland. These were much more common before the NO was introduced. Abuses in the NO mainly stem from the fact that there are so many of them. I have also never experienced things like communion distributed by the laity here. Altar rails are in most churches here. Modern music is very much rare here and not much of a problem for me.

[@GloriaJesu]

Thank you

[@fleur2571]

Thank you .

[@Altare_Dei]

@@fleur2571 happy to help!

[@chely0529]

I would like to go to Chicago just to visit Saint Cantius!!

[@Altare_Dei]

@@chely0529 same, probably the only reason I'd go to Chicago 😂

[@Zach-mw5so]

@@Altare_Deiand after Mass, getting a deep dish meat lovers at Geno’s and a pitcher of beer :p

[@Altare_Dei]

@@Zach-mw5so sounds delicious! Here in Miami, we get post-Mass brunch at Sergio's🤤

[@LadyJessKirk]

Thank you so much for sharing!! Both are so beautiful! I would like to add/suggest something. Both of these Masses are Latin( the Latin right has different forms though. One is the ordinary form of the Latin and the other the extraordinary form of the Latin. I have seen both done disrespectfully and both done with such love and devotion. Lord grand our priests the strength to serve you with the greatest devotion !!

[@Altare_Dei]

Amen! and thank you!

[@llamaalpaca5563]

As a Protestant I find this comparison quite interesting. Personally I have never been to any Novus Ordo mass, but my impression is most usually aren't like the one on the right.

[@Altare_Dei]

That's true. Unfortunately, most Novus Ordo Masses are much less beautiful. Most churches celebrate Mass using modern music, no Latin, and the priest faces the people rather than the altar. Communion is also usually distributed in the hand by laity rather than the priest using altar rails. Part of why I made this was to show how Novus Ordo can be celebrated reverently. I will make a video discussing this soon.

[@llamaalpaca5563]

@@Altare_Dei I have been to TLM before and it was itself a divine experience (FYI I did not receive the Sacrament). I have to confess that I always feel a bit meh about a regular Novus Ordo from a purely aesthetic perspective, although my impression comes only from random livestream that popped up on KZbin. It is similar to a contemporary Anglican service but without the beautiful English hymns and choral tradition, while Anglo-Catholic Masses are closer to the Reverent Novus Ordo on the right.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@llamaalpaca5563 We Roman Catholics actually have our own version of the Anglo-Catholic liturgy called Divine Worship, developed in 2009 for the Ordinariate. It's designed specifically for Anglican converts to Catholicism, and draws from the TLM, the Sarum Use, and the Book of Common Prayer. I understand your feelings about Novus Ordo. I wish every liturgy was celebrated as beautifully as these.

[@juans6639]

To my understanding, The Mass wad said in Greek for the first 199 years when Pope Victor introduced Latin and had been said that way until Vatican II..I am 77 years old and remember it very well. I made my First Communion in 1953.

[@Kit-xe3dw]

I think the Novus Ordo was adapted to fit the video. Even his chasuable is old style.

[@RoyJNg]

Thank you for posting, I always have to educate people at my parish when they couldn't tell the difference between the Latin Mass. Right now, it's just the normal today's mass, but most of the mass parts that are chanted are in Latin. Still working on getting some of the prayers on the priest's part to be in Latin and partially in English. Purpose is so people don't forget that Latin was the language of the Catholic Church.

[@Altare_Dei]

Awesome! God bless you

[@dragonscake]

IN NONE OF THE CHURCHS I HAVE BEEN TO WAS THE NOVUS ORDEO DONE IN SUCH A WAY. THERE ARE ALOT OF DIFFEREENCES AND VERY FEW SIMALARIES.

[@kevintran8539]

Not exactly the fairest of comparisons since the Usus Antiquior shown here: 1) Is utilizing the Asperges rite 2) Is utilizing the Deacon/Subdeacon (as Solemn High Masses do) 3) Has chanted readings (again, per Solemn High Mass) Whereas the NO in general does have the option of utilizing the Asperges rite, does have the option of utilizing 2 deacons*, and does have the option of chanting the readings. Besides these qualms though, I greatly appreciate this comparison. I really do believe St. John Cantius (and other parishes/oratories like it) are a great example of what the NO can be. *In the NO, while it has become custom to split the roles between a "Deacon of the Word" and "Deacon of the Altar," it is also entirely possible and permissible to split the roles as the deacon/subdeacon roles once were, i.e., have the deacon playing "subdeacon" read/chant the 1st & 2nd readings and assisting the one playing "deacon" at the altar as a subdeacon would, with the additional role of incensing at the foot of the altar (in lieu of holding the paten with a veil).

[@Altare_Dei]

You're right, I should've used more similar videos

[@dianedohman1807]

Where is this novis order as I have never been to a novis order mass such as this ?

[@Altare_Dei]

St. John Cantius Catholic Church in Chicago

[@danielmerklin5082]

You know in Southeast Indiana there are still high altars in churches preserved in the churches. They kept them and for some reason use them for only storing the blessed sacrament and photo opportunities. Its very sad. Majority of these churches are Novus ordo.

[@Altare_Dei]

Yeah, I wish they would just use the high altar as intended

[@tinatin7949]

Благодарю за русскоязычные субтитры и за разъяснения отличий традиционной латинской мессы от мессы новус ордо на латыни. Thank you for the Russian subtitles and for explaining the differences between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin.

[@gabrielleeliseo6062]

There’s an SSPX in Moscow if you ever want to observe a TLM.

[@tinatin7949]

@@gabrielleeliseo6062 ,thank you. And in which particular church in Moscow can I go to TLM? There are several Roman Catholic churches in Moscow, and I know two of them (St. Louis and the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary), but I don’t know in which of them.

[@gabrielleeliseo6062]

@@tinatin7949 It would be the Immaculate Heart of the BVM. Nalichnaya ulitsa, house 1 Moscow Moskva 111020 Russia

[@tinatin7949]

@@gabrielleeliseo6062 thank you. And you are well informed about Moscow's Roman Catholic churches and their types of masses. It turns out that there are two churches of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Moscow, and one of them is located at the following address: Malaya Gruzinskaya Street, Building 27/13с1.

[@gabrielleeliseo6062]

One is probably a Novus Ordo and the other is an SSPX- a TLM Mass church. I was interested to know what TLM access Russia had. Apparently very little, sadly.

[@mattmackinnan8557]

Beautiful

[@Altare_Dei]

Agreed!

[@winecheeseandbooks]

There are still fundamental differences in the prayers said during the NO, and much has been removed. The beauty is not only for us to marvel at, but it is a part of the offering to God - and it is lovely to see such a beautiful NO (which I've never seen IRL in all my years...), BUT the differences still exist.

[@Altare_Dei]

That's true. You should watch my recent video about serving TLM where I discuss this

[@nataleenriosgonzalez6687]

I think that they are both latin mass, because my novus ordus is like salsa concert they are dancing, I am from PR. I wish the novus mass I go is like this, is a mess in PR

[@ShamrockRagEll]

That sounds horrible, sorry to hear. I attend a sspx parish (Tridentine mass in Latin).

[@nataleenriosgonzalez6687]

@@ShamrockRagEll we drive like 2 hr to get a good mass

[@ShamrockRagEll]

@@nataleenriosgonzalez6687 I have so much respect for that. We have some people that do the same. I got lucky and live just 10 minutes away from my sspx parish - total coincidence.

[@jonPETERS]

That’s my church!

[@Altare_Dei]

Awesome!

[@upstatelynchmob]

Too bad this is so incredibly rare. This is not what 95% of Catholics experience at the local church.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@upstatelynchmob True. I will be making a video about this soon

[@saldol9862]

@@Altare_Dei I feel like this form of the NO is somehow even more rare and harder to find than the TLM.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@saldol9862 It is, but it's starting to become more popular

[@saldol9862]

@@Altare_Dei I hope it does become more popular. If that is how the NO was normally done, we would have less strife with TLM-NO infighting. Honestly I’d say this style with the use of the vernacular would do justice. I believe both forms should be celebrated with equal access, but I grew up with the NO and I do like how the Novus Ordo has a lot of readings. It annoys me when people say the NO is illegitimate or inherently less reverent.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@saldol9862 Agreed

[@watchyoutb]

Good idea for a video. A lot of people overreact about novus ordo and talk like they've never actually been or seen it

[@Alexandria-80]

Both beautiful, reverent, and 100% valid

[@Altare_Dei]

Amen

[@jefferymartenson2633]

Not according to Cardinal Ottaviani and the theologians that wrote the document telling Pope Paul to abrogate the new mass.

[@calebnwafor2549]

Please post the full reverent novus ordo St. John Cantius mass I want to show my Parish priest.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@calebnwafor2549 Here's their channel, they've got a bunch of them youtube.com/@sjcantius?si=zlRqN7YQPYotZjah

[@FlatFishBikes]

I’ve been to hundreds of churches all over the US and have never seen a Novus Ordo like that.

[@Altare_Dei]

It's rare but becoming more common

[@FlatFishBikes]

@@Altare_Dei Where? The only thing I have seen is the opposite…the massive push to rid our planet of latin masses. Many of bishops here in the US have been exceptionally skillful in removing anything that resembles latin or the traditional mass with surgical precision.

[@colinubeh1180]

I was born long after Novus Ordo. I'd love to attend the traditional Latin mass.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@colinubeh1180 I definitely recommend it!

[@Tunafish262]

If i have to move to Chicago... I'm going to make this my home

[@Tunafish262]

The canons regular of St John Cantius also run other churchs in Illinois

[@scottoftroy9663]

Seems if the sides didn't keep flipping, and the labels were kept on both, it would be easier to tell which is which?

[@Altare_Dei]

@@scottoftroy9663 left is TLM, right is Novus Ordo

[@TheVietnameseCatholic]

Canon Regulars of Saint John Cantius Classic

[@Altare_Dei]

So true! Nice to see you here. Your videos inspired me to start my channel!

[@TheVietnameseCatholic]

​@@Altare_DeiThat's amazing! The more Catholic youtubers, the better.

[@catholiccrusader5328]

I live a few blocks from this church!

[@Altare_Dei]

That's awesome!

[@BB-bx4dp]

I am confused. Is this video comparing the pre-1962 Latin Mass rite with the post-1962 Latin Mass rite? Or a post-62 Latin rite with an actual Novus Ordo rite? The video on the right looks closer to what I see when I go to a post-62 Latin Mass.

[@Altare_Dei]

This video is comparing Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 Missal with Novus Ordo Mass according to the 2002 Missal.

[@amdg672]

What's a post-62 Latin mass? The NO masses use the 2002 missal and can be said in Latin or the vernacular

[@Altare_Dei]

@@amdg672 it's a NO said in Latin.

[@carloscanziani1644]

Glory to God and his Mother Virgen Mary. I prefer the Mass in Latin pre 1962

[@stephanottawa7890]

Yes, it is somewhat confusing, possibly on purpose.

[@anotherbeginning]

We find it safer to support a regrettable past than to trust in a new future. The church is not going backwards. It is always moving forward. That is what God dose .

[@belovedbohemian7715]

What your showing here is a TLM Solemn High Mass and a Benedict XVI Ordinary form High Mass what VII attempted to produce but failed to bring to fruition. Either way, seeing them together and not being to much different, then why not just offer the TLM in its original rite so as to clear up ever questioning Pope Pius V anathema charge on anyone who would ever mess with the Mass and also keep the universal language Latin universal. Time to make the final step to the Mass of All Ages.

[@Altare_Dei]

Enforcing reverent N.O. is a lot more feasible and realistic than having everyone go back to TLM

[@josehenri3384]

Hi, contrary to a false legend, Pope St. Pius V never forbade his successors to modify the missal. The prohibition is addressed to his subordinates: the other bishops and priests who would, of their own movement and without the agreement of the pope, modify as they see fit rubrics, prayers and the calendar. The Council of Trent precisely wanted to put order in the Church, because local rites were multiplied by the publication of missals by the bishops. Moreover, the prohibition concerns the missal, and not the ordinary of the Mass. But the popes who succeeded him modified the missal many times until 1962. Moreover, in this another similar act, Pope St. Pius V prohibited the celebration of masses afternoon (except for the Christmas Vigil), I deduce, that according to this same false fundamentalist interpretation, that any mass celebrated afternoon is blasphemy (!). The prohibition of St. Pius V is a juridical act, which cannot under any pretext be defeated by bishops or laity, under penalty of grave sin, but can very well be broken and replaced by the pope. (For the Latin language, there has never been a dogmatic obligation in this regard; the Council of Trent condemns the false proposition that the Mass should never, for dogmatic reasons, be said in Latin, but theoretically authorizes the Mass in the vernacular). God bless you !

[@enrico_semeraroalberobello1522]

"Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam"!

[@Altare_Dei]

Amen!

[@edukaeshn]

This proves that Novus Ordo was an unnecessary innovation.

[@Altare_Dei]

I'm not against liturgical reform, as long as it maintains the reverence and tradition seen here. I do like certain additions of the Novus Ordo's missal, like the Old Testament reading and certain other prayers, but I wish they'd kept the prayers at the foot of the altar and final gospel

[@edukaeshn]

I think you're helping to make my point. I am for organic liturgical reform with reason, but I don't see that there was reason to tear out prayers nor postures of the Traditional Liturgy.@@Altare_Dei

[@andrewrolwes6034]

​@@Altare_Dei The TLM was (is) the result of well over a millenia of development, whose prayers were authored by Saints, Doctors and Popes of the Church. The new Mass was the work product of a committee of "liturgy experts", which included....Protestants (!!). Its a much, much lesser thing than the TLM. I imagine you're well aware of this. I am curious; what is the status of the TLM at SJC? Cd. Cupich has continued to permit its existence?

[@Altare_Dei]

@@andrewrolwes6034 Cantius still has TLM every Sunday. As far as I know, the Protestant observers present at VII did not have any influence over the council. Claims like those strike me as sensationalistic and exaggerated, but I could be wrong.

[@josehenri3384]

@@andrewrolwes6034 Hi ! There were Protestant observers at the Council of Trent and Vatican I (1870), in Trent, they had the right to take part in debates and make proposals. In 1964, there were 254 members of the Catholic clergy in the Consilium in charge of the liturgy, and 6 Protestant observers without any right of intervention. They came from different traditions that opposed each other (2 Lutherans, 2 Anglicans, 1 Methodist, 1 from the community of Taizé), the Anglicans, at that time, were themselves reforming their liturgy, and the Taizé Community is a recent Protestant experience inspired by traditional Catholic monasticism. Only William Wakefield Baum, who was never a member of the Consilium, indicated that some members of the Consilium invited Protestant observers to share a snack during the hours of relaxation while discussing (what a crime!). Apart from this very light "testimony", everything else is speculation. Rationally, to think that 254 high clerics of the Church, occupying positions of honor and power, were manipulated like puppets by 6 Protestant from different nationalities with conflicting conceptions between them, it is nonsense.

[@sebastianpakkiam8663]

Prays the Lord 🙏 God Bless us Apologies all over the world. Mercy on us 🙏. LATIN Rite's or ROMAN RIts Literally Fall down in the World 🌍 no unite no faith and no respectful each other 🙏 only artificial Activities 🙏

[@alexpanagiotis4706]

Fake video. Not even ONE NOVUS ORDO MASS IS LIKE THIS IN GERANY OR AUSTRIA

[@Altare_Dei]

@@alexpanagiotis4706 it's not fake. It's a video of St. John Cantius in America. I'm sure you'd find one in Germany/Austria if you looked hard enough.

[@alexpanagiotis4706]

@@Altare_Dei You did not get the point! PERHAPS THERE IS ONE SUCH CHURCH IN A COUNTRY OF 80.000 MILLION PEOPLE. ONE SUCH CHURCH. BUT YOU WILL NOT FIND ONE ....IF YOU GO TO ANY CHURCH IN GERMANY..

[@alexpanagiotis4706]

@@Altare_Dei That's why it is fake. No one is celebrating like this. Novus Ordo are usually Clown Masses, Rock masses, guitar, drums, dancing, jumping, nudes

[@Altare_Dei]

@@alexpanagiotis4706 Praying for Germany, I hope your country's church can find peace in these difficult times

[@alexpanagiotis4706]

@@Altare_Dei The RCC does not exist anymore

[@KaiqueDacostaThomaz]

Nunca vi o novo ordo assim e se fosse daquela maneira meu Deus como seria bonita

[@MoisesBarbosa-u3m]

Aqui no Brasil tem um Padre que celebra o Rito Novo de forma muito bela, apesar de não ser como no vídeo, é o Padre Alex Nogueira. Veja as missas dele. Sinceramente, se for celebrado como Padre Alex celebra, já está de bom tamanho

[@Eric-l4t7x]

every parish should offer both

[@gregorycurry2173]

I am from Poland, from Krakow, and here, Novus Ordo in Latin is available every day at the pre-conciliar altar in selected churches.

[@damiangajownik2415]

Does anyone know who wrote the "ordinarium missae" of this mass? For exemplum Kyrie or Gloria? Thanks for help.

[@Altare_Dei]

I don't know, that's a good question!

[@paulkornilow7134]

Both of these liturgies are very beautiful if our Holy father wants to ban the Tridentine Mass than make the Novous Ordus in Latin universal with the exception of the readings/gospel and homily I been to the Tridentine love it a lot miss it since they removed it from my parish but wouldn't mind going to the Novous Ordus in Latin every Sunday either both are beautiful

[@Altare_Dei]

Agreed!

[@deserttrainguy3235]

Thank you for the comparison, however, on the right is a very respectable NO service which are difficult to locate. The average NO is a celebration and not a sacrifice, and is almost unrecognizable to a respectable NO service. Once you participate in the Traditional Latin Mass, there is no turning back.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@deserttrainguy3235 I suppose that's fair. The point was simply to show how it's done at St John Cantius

[@crazyfaith77]

I love them both. TBH I go to a N.O. Mass and they don’t do anything like that N.O. Mass. I wish they did.

[@Altare_Dei]

Maybe you can get involved in one of their ministries and help to introduce them!

[@crazyfaith77]

@@Altare_Dei how can I do that?

[@Altare_Dei]

@@crazyfaith77 You could become an altar server/MC, or join the musicians, and once you get to know them, suggest incorporating one of the traditions! If you're a musician, try suggesting a Gregorian chant to sing, or if you're a server, talk to the priest about celebrating ad orientem or using Latin prayers

[@crazyfaith77]

@@Altare_Dei I am a female alter server. I guess I could sacrifice my position for tradition.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@crazyfaith77 If you want. Whatever you think would make Mass more reverent

[@kiarabeveridge2544]

I wish I could say otherwise, but in my opinion The Traditional Latin Mass is far more aesthetically pleasing than the Novus Ordo done reverently in latin. The chior that sang in the TLM was just absolutely beautiful.

[@Altare_Dei]

@@kiarabeveridge2544 it's the same choir in both Masses

[@saintamata1841]

@@Altare_Dei How did the choir handle the Psalm/Gradual part in the NOM? I'm a choir director of a reverent NOM community and we are trying to get organized and regular with the propers.

[@hongtamnguyen7294]

kid crying is universal 😂

[@Altare_Dei]

@@hongtamnguyen7294 yes 😂 if there's no crying, the church is dying

[@dlopez777]

Love to see the NO with Deacon and asperges compared at the beginning up to the Gospel. Also universal prayers chanted in NO.

[@rmp7400]

The Novus Ordo Masses, when correctly offered, are indeed valid - however, the amount of graces received are not the same. If anyone doubts this, just observe the state of the Holy Church today: well advanced on the Via Dolorosa... awaiting imminent burial before the ultimate Resurrection /Restoration.🙏🏻🕯️❤️✨👑

[@christophersalinas2722]

Not sure how the “graces” would be different.

[@johnbanasiak3720]

Wait! How did they distribute communion in the Latin Novus Ordo!? This is wonderful!

[@Altare_Dei]

Like they always do: priests and communion rails.

[@johnbanasiak3720]

@@Altare_Dei we need this! The Church needs this!

[@Altare_Dei]

@@johnbanasiak3720 Amen!

[@VittRomani]

That's the NO as it should have been, according to Sacrosanctum Concilium (latin language, no new altar, no destruction of the altar rails, use of gregorian chant etc...). But unfortunately, that document was just a breech to make a new thing, liturgical abuse after liturgical abuse.

[@georgecherucheril9947]

The problem with Vatican II's implementation is that there are many choices for celebrating the mass. The consensus choice is not the reverent novus ordo shown in this video. For one, they either ripped out the old high altars or added a table altar. Almost every church today has the table altar. There are no communion rails. The most used eucharistic prayer is the shortest one, which is number 2.

[@Altare_Dei]

That's true. The Mass ought to be more standardized with respect for tradition. I discuss this in my most recent video

[@tracciadunombra6680]

I find it difficult to distinguish in the images what the novus and what the vetus ordo is, because both celebrations take place ad Deum and not ad populum.

[@Altare_Dei]

The left is Vetus Ordo, right is Novus Ordo

[@LF07373]

Link of this mass (novus ordo) please

[@Altare_Dei]

Just search up "St John Cantius 2002 missal latin"

[@LF07373]

@Altare_Dei Yes, but I wanted the link to this specific mass (novus ordo), do you have it?

[@Altare_Dei]

@@LF07373 I don't even remember which one it was lol, sometime in 2023 I think.