What Is The Future of the Novus Ordo w/ Michael Gormley

[@Monkcel14]

I left the church, having been raised in a "welcoming" Novus Ordo parish. As a kid, I didnt understand why no one took the Mass seriously, especially if they claimed the Eucharist was literally the body and blood of Christ Thank God for the Latin Mass that brought me back home

[@Ignats75]

You gotta love narcissists who think their individual experience is somehow the way the whole world is.

[@Monkcel14]

@@Ignats75 are you calling me a narcissist?

[@Sherlock910]

@@Ignats75 Dude, what's up with the name calling? The Poster above was just talking about his personal experience in his own parish.

[@Ignats75]

@@Monkcel14 Yeah. But its not your fault. We're living in the age of narcissism

[@Monkcel14]

@@Ignats75 thank God I didn't meet someone like you on my way back to the church. Extremely uncharitable

[@scopilio13]

i honestly think that kids my age, 20's and 30's, want the latin mass or at least an extremely reverent novus ordo. it is so weird how tradition and virtue has seemingly become counter culture. if you want to rebel you go to the latin mass, you don't get tatoos, you don't do drugs, abstain from sex, etc. we certainly are living in strange times.

[@Zadir09]

I am young. This isn’t a rebellion, it’s seeking some foundation and reverence. If you TRULY believe Jesus is in the eucharist you should be near trembling in awe and joy. We don’t want to remove the NO mass, but we just want the option of attending a Latin Mass. why is the pope restricting the latin mass so so so intensely?

[@seancoinery65]

​​@@Zadir09 bc it is growing while NO is flat and or declining. If that continues, they'll have to own that V2 was wrong I am lucky to have access to 2 BEAUTIFUL Chapels from the 1800s on the same street. One is NO, one is FSSP. Guess which one is PACKED with families that have 2-8 children each to the point I am often standing & kneeling on the floor and which one is 1/4 full of, tbh, mostly older folks? Guess which one has Confession open for 1 hour leading up to EVERY. SINGLE. MASS. that has a line? Guess which one is at least half full for Stations of the Cross? Guess which one has absolutely NOBODY even think of sneaking out right after Communion? The NO Church has Confession available like 3x a week in the middle of the day The differences are night & day & I thank God everyday I found an FSSP Parish

[@CorImmaculatum]

I have tattoos and mostly attend a reverent Novus Ordo. So am I condemned? SOME of these statements seem like opinions… The Pharisees were very concerned about outward appearances and tradition too. I have seen photos of Tridentine masses that were near empty. I’ll be sure to pass along to my congregation(deacons and Presbyter also) that we are all condemned to hell. Wow glad you cleared that up for me. Maybe I’ll chop my arms off, so others will be comfortable around this awful sinner.

[@nataliabautista599]

I used to attend Novus Ordo and was raised in a Novus Ordo mass! But in 2020 I found the Traditional Latin Mass and I am so thankful to God to have found it! I love it so much and I would not go back, the respect to our Lord is incredible and the respect in mass by all is beautiful!! Receiving our Lords body on the knees and on the mouth is a beautiful sight to see the respect to our Lords body! I would definitely recommend attending Traditional Latin Mass 100%.

[@jimjessup5041]

There's nothing radical about the traditional Latin Mass

[@joechriste7052]

Correct, only the people who are radicalized by the misinformation spread online.

[@apologiaromana4123]

Amen

[@bumponalog5001]

​@@verityvinyl8540How they feel is irrelevant. One Mass was by definition the traditional one, and one is new. Words have definitions.

[@BouncingZeus]

I would say it is radical. It is radically anti the world. However, it is the basis of the Church so it can't be radical it is the starting point.

[@hannahmombrea9463]

​@verityvinyl8540 Why be so nasty? Everyone seems to accuse TLM supporting Catholics of being angry and exclusive all the time, but then there are Novus Ordo favoring Catholics who address people the way you just did. No need to attack. All of us Catholics are on the same team. Let's act like it. God Bless you.

[@siderumii8758]

My main difficulty with reverent Novus Ordos (of which I have attended and deeply appreciate many) is that they are often quite dependent on the pastor. You could have (as I have seen) a priest who takes the Mass extremely seriously and adds much needed reverence to his celebration of the Novus Ordo. But then, say, 8 years later, he is transferred and a new priest comes who is completely opposed to the work his predecessor accomplished. It’s just far too dependent on taste and opinion.

[@Tttb95]

The rubrics themselves are an issue too. You cant compare the Offertory prayers, the prayers at the foot of the alter, the confiteor, the lavabo, and the last gospel, and more... What the strawmen NO-onlies keep thinking is we favor the language. Meanwhile if the NO was just the TLM translated the liturgy wars wouldnt exist.

[@bradclifton5248]

Ah! So much a struggle for each parish. I honestly believe that parishes need to take more ownership. To tithe at levels that parishes can stand and support their priests fully and independently. This would allow these communities to request a priest be imported to fill our needs.

[@richardgreiner9264]

Somewhat similar to the Episcopal Church one priest might be more “ High Church “ another might be more “ Low Church” all in the same parish .

[@bradclifton5248]

@@richardgreiner9264 diversity in parishes is good but, my experience has shown that more traditional priests have been pushed out of my parish by boomer feminists

[@uikmnhj4me]

That’s because the pastor is our local shepherd. The faithful are supposed to follow his lead. The problem is the bishop, the shepherd of the shepherds, not doing his job.

[@ShadowMage3D]

Tradition is our future, or we have no future. I will be in communion with the saints, and my ancestors. When I attend the Latin Mass, I feel them there beside me. 10:15 - I tried to tell someone that the doctrine of the Real Presence states that Christ is fully present, body, blood, soul and divinity in every drop of wine, and crumb of the host, and they were like "If that were true, communion in the hand would be banned" Then I pulled out the CCC. Never got a response.

[@victoriaeinbinder9487]

We attend one of those "unicorn Novus Ordos" and when we go on vacation and attend regular NO parishes my kids have asked if we're going to protestant churches. I think that's a major problem. Now we always try to find a Byzantine Catholic church or TLM when we're not home.

[@rickjelliffe1580]

No, the major problem is if they think the importance of the ritual is greater than the importance of the Real Presence. That would be utterly unbalanced.

[@MegaMackproductions]

​​@@rickjelliffe1580I think the major issue is how many novus ordos are out of step with the actual Church, not that among the hippy music and various other trappings of the novus ordo the OPs kids were so confused they thought they'd stepped into a protestant church. I've certainly had that feeling. And it's why as a Convert from Protestantism I don't darken the doorways of most novus ordos unless absolutely necessary. I want to take mass seriously, I want to worship God seriously.

[@rickjelliffe1580]

@@MegaMackproductions It does not matter what they think about the wrapper, whether they think it "feels" Protestant or Orthodox or Maronite: what matters is the contents of the package: the transubstantiatied body of Christ. Why isn't it disrespect, as a layperson, when face to face with the Host, to be thinking about rubrics and the "feel" of the event? We must not make superficiality into a virtue.

[@rickjelliffe1580]

@@MegaMackproductionsHmmm. Define "actual church": are you excluding most mass-goers from the "actual church" because they go to the rite our church pastors have laid down?

[@yeshua1st]

I entered the church from athiesm just over a year ago. I was baptised and confirmed in a charismatic church. One week after my baptism I attended my first TLM and I've never left, it was the most beautiful way to worhsip God I have ever seen. I go to NO when I have to but there is a big difference and the TLM has so many good fruits.

[@chestnutgunshop]

I have noticed that the younger priests coming out of seminary seem to have a lot more reverence for the Mass and the Eucharist. It's a positive trend.

[@Patrick_919]

I joined a Byzantine church after hearing Matt mention that rite. The novus ordo feels so watered down.

[@laurants]

Careful, NO peeps are gonna cry when they read your comment. "Uh, how dare he, all masses are the same!"

[@connertoennis1028]

Come home to the Orthodox Church☦️

[@josephesquivel4066]

​@@nadreb13 And judging by the drop in Mass attendance, Vocations, and adherence to Church teachings, something more important became weak and fewer became saved

[@bengensiejewski5002]

@@nadreb13what?

[@ayoutubecommenter5068]

@@nadreb13 and who's to say that this isn't another call for reformation? Our masses have become so Protestantized that we might as well stop calling ourselves Catholics.

[@daviddabrowski01]

The ending… yes yes yes yes and yes. I’ve had these conversations with people where I posit, “God could have absolutely stopped Vatican II in its track. Just like He could have stopped the reformation or even the fall; but He didnt”. I fully believe He’s using Vatican II to bring about a greater good than we could have ever imagined. Also agree the novus ordo can’t stay the way it is. Luckily I go to a very reverent novus ordo at my Polish parish.

[@daviddabrowski01]

@@verityvinyl8540 honestly…. I couldn’t agree more. I could not agree more. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻. I had debate with someone on this topic just yesterday where they called the novus ordo the mass of the anti church and my response was, “so what do we do with all these devout Catholics who only have access to the NO? Are they just condemned?”. Obviously I’m not condoning egregious irreverent masses but… if the only mass I had access to had an awful band, a priest that does clown masses once a week and baptisms via by water gun, id still go. If there is a consecrated pair of hands saying the rite and calling down the Holy Spirit to turn the bread and wine into the body blood and soul and divinity of our Lord… I’m going.

[@antoniussukardi9029]

@@verityvinyl8540 well said brother

[@TheLonestarofTexas]

@@verityvinyl8540 what’s gonna go that far. I know what you’re trying to say. The band stuff makes sense, but the water, gun and clown stuff is more than just problematic, and genuinely actually can invalidate the mass. I really do understand where you’re coming from, you were saying that, if the Novus ordo, (even not done in the best way, but done essentially properly) is being celebrated, then you would, and should still go, and I agree, but don’t let the superiority complex of certain people who attend the Latin mass get in the way of you recognizing what really is too far. PS, I say all the stuff about people who attend the Latin mass, having a superiority complex as someone who attends the Latin mass weekly, so I’m not somebody who has an issue with it, but I also attend the Novus auto for most daily masses, there are things that are objectively superior about each, and I think that’s the problem, neither side is willing to admit that some thing from the other side is objectively better. God love you.

[@TheLonestarofTexas]

@@daviddabrowski01 the above response was meant for you. Don’t feel like re-typing all that lol.

[@brigittedecdumee9894]

@@verityvinyl8540 Well said!!! Thank you for your testimony.

[@andrewstahl3531]

Summorum Pontificum was and is the wisest and most prudent answer to all the problems discussed. It’s to bad many bishops ignored it and this created two opposing groups…God Bless B16.

[@michellenorleen3427]

This is spot on. I floundered in my youth and fell away for a period of time. Thank God for Mother Angelica.

[@demtron]

Mother brought me back too!

[@larak4144]

It's good you went back. I, on the other hand, found Mother Angelica to be insufferable. But I endured 9 years of nuns in grade school. They did more harm than good.

[@richarddunn9286]

I've been saying this since my time at RCIA. I said the more we treat the eucharist as God the better. That means bringing back communion plates, facing ad orientem, and the priest should be the only one handling the eucharist. The Novus ordo doesn't need to change, but the things we do for the Eucharist do. As Michael says, lacking any of these things should be the exception, not the norm. I've had lay eucharistic ministers get offended at the idea though.

[@Mac1996_]

The New mass in my opinion has only older people attending as when you go to a Latin mass it’s full of younger people and families.

[@annburke6705]

The old people are just as important as the young

[@BrewMeister27]

​@@annburke6705True, but the children of those old people have largely left the faith. As the boomer generation dies off, more and more parishes are closing. We must change something to attract young people to the faith. And the only strategy that has reliably attracted young families is to embrace traditional practices.

[@kathyd7374]

@@BrewMeister27 My husband and I are in the "boomer generation" - both in our 60's, and have been attending the Traditional Latin Mass for several years. It is BECAUSE of us that our son and his young family started attending the TLM. There are a lot of young, growing families in our parish. I love seeing the young children and babies - it gives me great hope - but there are many older folks attending too. I hope we don't all "die off" too soon.

[@joshdalf9493]

I’ve heard mixed stories. I’ve seen someone state that where they are it’s the old people who attend the TLM, and the NO gets packed. It would be interesting to have a real study done to try and figure out what’s going on with these. It may not be as simple as people would like it

[@Mac1996_]

@@joshdalf9493 definitely agree I’ve seen many N.O masses completely packed I can only speak for here in Southern California

[@flyoptimum]

I have seen a slow but steady increase in the reverence, music and preaching in Novus Ordo masses. Understand that millennial priests, who are the strongest force for tradition in the Latin Rite, are just now beginning to become pastors. The next two decades will see a tidal wave of them taking over. It's going to be very interesting to watch.

[@RadTradCat]

🤞🏻🙏🏻🤞🏻🙏🏻

[@josephlundin3285]

Yes!

[@johnymatt7476]

I was born in Dubai, so English was my first language. I came to Canada from India with my family when I was 9. We got connected with the local Syro-Malankara church in Toronto, because we were Malankara Catholic. For me, it was hard to get invested in the liturgy and the language, which is a mix of Malayalam and Greek. To me Novus Ordo just made sense. But I don’t condemn tradition. It’s worth protecting.

[@Conorthedad]

Go to the Toronto Oratory tomorrow for the 11am Mass.

[@ThanksStJoseph]

A couple of thoughts: The four ends of the Mass are 1) Adoration 2) Thanksgiving 3) Atonement and 4) Petition……. NOT evangelization. When the liturgy was changed to bring about and end that is not it’s purpose it diminished it’s ability to do it’s purpose. The Novus Ordo DONE WELL is still dramatically inferior to the TLM.

[@myleshagar9722]

"The Church is a school house" Luther

[@rickjelliffe1580]

Who says? Point me to the CCC references, or to consensus of Councils or Popes or Saints. The ends of the Mass are to follow Jesus' command that we do it, and then we let him achieve whatever he wishes through it. We don't dictate to him what it is supposed to be for, surely?

[@ThanksStJoseph]

@@rickjelliffe1580 I’m not sure if it’s in the CCC or not. But if it isn’t, that’s more a bad reflection on the CCC than anything else. That’s been part of tradition for much longer than we’ve been writing Catechisms.

[@rtyria]

@@rickjelliffe1580 I remember reading about those four ends of the Mass in my old missal (both NO and TLM missals). It was in our school catechisms as well, so I imagine it would be in the CCC as well.

[@rickjelliffe1580]

@@rtyria First, you would have to prove that the 4 statement were meant to be exclusive, which is a Protestant/Teutonic communication default not a Catholic/Mediterranean mode. Second you would have to show that the "tradition" of the last few hundred years is the same as Sacred Tradition, which goes back to patriotic and apostolic times. Small t tradition is not Tradition: for example post-Tridentine tradition is not, by itself, to be regarded as Sacred Tradition, any more than post-Vatican II small-t tradition is.

[@nromerob]

I really appreciate Gomer's insights here. Reforms have been part of the Church's history since its earliest days, as we read from St Paul. Reforms of the liturgy are likewise necessary and inevitable. But we must see that they always bring us closer to God and not simply lower the bar (or stay on the bridge as he says). I look forward to the day when we won't have any more of this "liturgy war" and instead celebrate a beautiful and reverent Mass without clinging to faulty ideologies of any kind.

[@iohannesfactotum]

Don't confuse change with progress

[@kamilziemian995]

When "Church of mercy" remove soulless measure of Traditionis Custodes, we may have a discussion about that. Remember that in XVI century Church ban all liturgy that at the time was younger than 200 years.

[@jmac4412]

@@kamilziemian995 yup, and promulgated the Latin Rite in all perpetuity in Pope St Pius V's Papal Bull. Quo Primum

[@Sherlock910]

@@jmac4412 You misinterpret "Quo Primum". The Pope CANNOT bind his successors in any aspect of Church discipline and law, which includes how the liturgy is to be celebrated. By his very office, the Pope is chief liturgist. He can mandate and approve changes to the liturgical practice of the Church as he sees fitting within his prudential judgement. Many Popes prior to John XXIII understood this notion very well. In fact, Pope Pius XII (prior to the election of John XXIII) had approved a revision to the Tridentine Missal, which eliminated many octaves for major feasts, this included a revision of Holy Week, and a change in the classification system for the order of feast days. Pope St. Pius X, who is a patron saint of the SSPX, if I'm not mistaken, approved revisions to the Daily Breviary which shortened the length of prayers to be said daily by all priests and religious. Prior to Pius X, there had been many Popes who had made additions to the Tridentine Missal adding in the feast days and propers of recently canonized Saints. If we are going to argue that the Tridentine Missal is to be held in "perpetuity" according to your definition of Pope St. Pius V's bull, Quo Primum, then those Popes in "adding" or "taking" from the Missal have violated sacred tradition. How can we trust any of them? If we've been led astray in this one matter, than we've probably been lead astray in many other matters. Why trust the Church, if the Vicar of Christ can't even safeguard Sacred Tradition? This position is untenable. And I am speaking as a fellow Catholic who loves attending the Traditional Latin Mass. If we can offer critic on the current situation, it can be in the way liturgical abuses have been handled by local Bishops and Rome.

[@annoyingchannel8812]

@@Sherlock910 There is a quantum difference between occasional modifications and the wholesale banning of the rite.

[@LMC444111]

I returned to the Church after 30 years and went to a local parish... where I promptly walked out. Thank you God for putting me in contact with someone who told me about the TLM. I will never leave again.

[@Neb-ie5mj]

I will definitely say I am one of the people that is exhausted. Discussions like this are helpful, makes me feel like I'm not alone. People, don't give up on one another. God Bless!

[@Hammett175]

Yeah, I'm like a punch-drunk fighter in the 13th round.

[@triumphofihm525]

You’ve nailed! I was born in 1963 so I do recall my parish Church which is enormous, absolutely packed. By 1972 it was not 1/2 full. Something has to give! The tlm my son attends is standing room only.

[@RickW-HGWT]

Amen ! look at a mass from 1965 then one from 1975, see the loss of reverence and why things continue to go badly, other factors were in play but if we had not gone NO we would have been in a better stronger place today.

[@ThatGuiKyle]

Bring back traditional Catholicism, and you'll bring back seriously devout men of faith. Its the reason most are leaving to go to Orthodoxy, bring back tradition, bring back holy men and women.

[@joechriste7052]

Can you define your terms please. I just want to understand how you define "traditional Catholicism" and "orthodoxy".

[@Mac1996_]

⁠​⁠@@joechriste7052traditional Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy is what he seem to be saying.

[@TradPapol]

​@@joechriste7052when he refers to Orthodoxy, he is referring to Eastern Orthodoxy. The second lung of the Church that split away in 1054. Traditional Catholicism just refers to returning to our roots as Catholics

[@paulthomas955]

Amen brother! As a Byzantine catholic who's participated in EVERY liturgical Rite, the TLM has to be in the top 3 most beautiful of all of them, especially the high mass!

[@Mac1996_]

@@paulthomas955 l attend a Byzantine liturgy it’s beautiful

[@davidmyhra4931]

The church my parents go to does novus ordo, Latin and a Byzantine liturgy. The novus ordo is the least attended.

[@christopherpavesi7245]

St. Thomas Aquinas?

[@davidmyhra4931]

@@christopherpavesi7245 no, Mater Dolorosa in South San Francisco

[@kp3871]

A few years ago the cathedral in Austin had 2 TLMs on Sunday and 5 NO masses (probably still do). One Sunday the numbers were released. Approx 700 at the two TLM masses and the same number at all FIVE NO masses.

[@bengoolie5197]

The most reverent Novus Ordo Mass in the entire world would not make it beyond the bottom 20 percent of Traditional Latin Masses on the reverence scale.

[@TheGringoSalado]

This is such a great conversation. You’ve both succinctly identified and out into words in a way I’ve struggled to do

[@teresahuston6650]

I had to go to First Saturday Devotions at a different parish today. I prayed before I even got there to help me stay focused on the Eucharist because I had to attend this church before and came away upset. It felt so Protestant. I shouldn't have to feel this way when going to mass. Older priest facing us for starters. There was no reverence from the laity(of bowing or even genuflecting) in front of the blessed sacrament. People just walked right past the alter without acknowledging our Lord before and after mass. Conversations taking place after mass in church. No bells when the body and blood of Jesus is raised, no way to kneel to receive communion on the tongue . The priest was doing alot of ab libbing, was even saying his prayers (suppose to be quietly said)outloud to us. I was the only one with a veil on my head. Thank you Lord for opening my eyes to the beautiful gift of TLM. We have one an hour away, but in the meantime at least we have NO Ad Orientum, Latin prayers required, alter boys, a kneeler, the patten, incense, etc. in my parish. These NO priests are obeying their Bishops so they don't get canceled and the Bishops are afraid of the Vatican.(called out like Bishop Strickland). So sad. I now see the tear down of the Catholic Church through Vatican II.

[@nicholashoward-t3l]

I’ve been attending TLM for the last year and a half and I’ve learned so much more about my faith and I’ve even learned more culturally and historically than my first 25 years on this earth w Novus Ordoesque communities

[@bumponalog5001]

Has anyone noticed that having a reverent Novus Ordo mean just changing stuff to be more like the Traditional Mass? I cant think of a single thing the Novus Ordo brought in that was new that ended up being better. At that point why even have it at all?

[@limen5442]

Notion of actual participation. Slipshod high masses, mumbled low masses prior to VII. TLM communities are intentional about offering to God our very best. VII was the catalyst for that.

[@eforeagleowl]

I see way too many people promoting the idea of a "reverent Novus Ordo" when it is just an oxymoron. Just go back to the Tridentine Mass and allow it to be said in the vernacular.

[@Christofascist_Hup]

​​@@limen5442efects in the practice of a Mass are not commentary on the Mass in itself. Your post is a non sequitur. That being said, there is truth in considering what the novus ordo was a chastisement in itself and the refreshed Devotion to the traditional Latin Mass is the response to that chastisement. Edit: business and activity =/= participation.

[@christopherpavesi7245]

​@@limen5442it's nearly impossible to pray in the NO mass, true participation is praying the mass.

[@limen5442]

@@christopherpavesi7245 did I say the NO was the solution? NOPE. I attend the TLM, and advocate for the pre 55 calendar. All I said was the impetus for the council was slipshod liturgy, and that S. C. may have helped bring intentionality back to liturgy. And once one attempts to be intentional in the NO, they go to the TLM.

[@Zaradeptus]

Much love for the Ordinariate! Thats what the Novus Ordo should have been.

[@eamonob84]

Based on Sacrosanctum Concilium, that is basically what the council fathers envisioned.

[@laurants]

Much is what the NO should have been. Allow laypeople to do more and they take more, then they do everything, save consecration.

[@DavidLopez-gv8mo]

The Roman Canon is the most ancient. We have an awesome patrimony in the West, and it’s coming back beautifully.

[@justinreany1514]

I truly believe with all my soul that the Novus Ordo MUST be scrapped and a proper, Catholic, and faithful reform of the 1962 Mass be done. The Novus Ordo is a rupture, a break with the continuity of Liturgical tradition of the Church. That CANNOT be denied at this point. Cannot be! What was truly desired was a PARTIAL vernacularization of the 1962 and additional of a daily lectionary. That's it! The majority of the liturgical reform was to he focused in a reform of the breviary and calendar. Read all the major orthodox players of the liturgical reform prior to Vatican II. They wanted a renewal of the faithful's encounter and engagement in the reality and mystery of Christ in the Liturgy. What we got instead was a complete secularization and modernist version of worship that carried with it a new theology. CANNOT be denied or refused at this point. The Novus Ordo needs to be scrapped and a faithful reform done instead.

[@SensusFidelium]

The diocese in Charlotte is training the seminarians like this. At NOs I’ve been too you are the outlier if you are standing or put your hands out in many parishes especially where the younger priests are. Even the cathedral is like this

[@paulborn6423]

I am a diocesan priest, so you know that I am in communion with the Church. Michael Gormley’s point about the traditional Roman Rite evangelizing the world is one I use often. The revision of the rites was supposedly meant to simplify and evangelize. Average parish sacrifices are disastrous messes of ritual books. Do perform all the rites , many more books are required than before 1970. The parish I served as a Deacon had three vernacular languages in use, multiplying books by 3. It is so confusing that many clerics never learn to use them correctly, and then they change. Rare is the cleric who also knows which are most recent editions in use of those ritual books. Sure, all of this can be resolved, and much of the confusion will be, I presume - but never ever ever should a Catholic of good will accuse the traditional rites of being too complex, or unfit for evangelization. The traditional Roman Rites DID evangelize the world, and was simple enough to be carried through the old world - no airplanes, trains, postal service, etc. The Eastern Rites have not done this in the same way, for whatever reason. The traditional Roman Rite is our inheritance, and a precious one at that

[@juancorona3893]

Exactly, and if the Holy See still allows the TLM to be celebrated, it’s still valid, so what does that say about those who oppose it so adamantly? If it is a valid mass, it’s a valid mass. It reminds me of those who discourage others of praying the luminous mysteries of the rosary, we should never discourage more prayer

[@joefranks4235]

I have experienced, as a layman both masses. I can tell you from personal experience how protestantized the NO mass has become. I was also one of the first EMC in the Arch. of Chicago when it was first allowed. The way people presented themselves for communion was down right sacrilegious. I stepped down voluntarily after nearly 7 years. I have come to love the TLM. The mass that has produced a galaxy of lay and religious saints.

[@rickjelliffe1580]

Non sequitur. You have newspapers full of stories such as Tuam, and you think that it is the details of the Mass that drives people away from Catholicism? No, the fact is that "Catholicism", especially in that extreme Irish version, had well before the time of Vatican II become quite deformed. (Read the biography of Pope John Paul I to see how this deformed version of Christianity had infected the church in regional Italy, too: he saw the bodies of dead babies left in the snow.) If our Church needs to become small, with the willingly lukewarm and willfully deviant repelled, in order to become great again, so be it. If we need to sell all our buildings to pay for the past sins of self-righteous administrators protecting predators and monsters, so be it. The one, holy, catholic and apostolic church will continue. Our beloved Church has 99 problems, but the Mass is not one of them, in any rite.

[@timrichardson4018]

The parish I attend does a very reverant Novus Ordo, ad orientem, Latin mixed in, alter rails. I LOVE IT! We just had our last TLM this month which is sad, because I love it too. My pastor is talking about doing some of the masses (Novus Ordo) all in Latin.

[@mike-yd4py]

Why the last?

[@mike-yd4py]

@SanctusPaulus-ic5gl So? Why would you listen? It’s clearly a heretical and ungodly instruction.

[@terirusnak9675]

Excellent discussion on an extremely difficult topic! Really appreciate it.

[@Leocomander]

At this rate I see people at least the more serious of Catholics checking out from the New Mass and moving over to either Eastern Rite, Ordinariate or TLM.

[@KillerofGods]

Ordinariate?

[@ReminisceLogic]

​@@KillerofGods I believe the reference is to the new Anglican Ordinariate that was approved a couple of years ago.

[@clelia8885]

Funny you say that, my husbands and I are serious Catholics and we switched from TLM to NO 😅 I’m curious to check out an Ordinariate though, and I find the Eastern Rite beautiful. I do find it interesting that the NO and eastern rite have a lot of similarities. Probably bc the NO hearkens back to the early church, as the eastern rites do.

[@Numenorean921]

@@clelia8885 the novus ordo hearkens back to the reformation you mean, it was created by protestants.

[@augcaes]

@@clelia8885 the claim of archeologism or “harkening back to the early Church” was already defined as an error by the Church itself.

[@watermelontreeofknowledge8682]

TLM guy here. I hope Sancrosanctum Concillium is more faithfully implemented in my lifetime. I really hope the differences between the Novus Ordo and the TLM get to be very small so that they are virtually unidentifiable.

[@chasedudek3136]

Vatican II will never work. It will never be implemented "more faithfully" because it is far too vague, and the vagary in the documents was done intentionally by modernist heretics at the council. John Paul II and Benedict XVI thought they could beat the modernist heretics at their own game by still trying to steer the council right, decades after it closed. I love JPII and Benedict, but they had to realize they were never going to beat the modernists at their own game.

[@mrs.smilson5463]

Nearly everyone at all of my close Novus Ordo has one foot in the grave. I honestly don't know how the Priests are keeping the lights on. Yet the TLM down the road is full, with all generations, kids everywhere. I honestly don't think it will be long that they will be selling Novus Ordo Churches, which, by the way, were built by TLM.

[@annburke6705]

Well our lord did say that there may be only a handful left when he comes back, the tlm should never of left, repent and come back...

[@mrs.smilson5463]

​@annburke6705 They have the Mass of the Saints, no turning back to a dying mockery of Catholism. The TLM is small but the Gates of Hell will not prevail over the true church.

[@flrevert]

Demographics is destiny. Compare attendees at an NO Mass and at a TLM Mass.

[@augcaes]

@@annburke6705or more like St. Athanasius said: they have buildings, we have the faith. NOs have the buildings, TLMs have the faith.

[@DigitalLogos]

The NOM community up the road from me is booming, banal Mass, communion in hand, altar girls and all.

[@rpmgrlca]

Novus Ordo is 18% of the TLM. Crazy.

[@mattu7164]

The Extraordinary Form + a full/proper understanding of the love, mercy, and justice of God. This is the formula.

[@andrewewell]

A fifth of the people would leave the Church if we all went ad orientum because most Catholics have a Protestant mindset at this point. We need the FSSP, ICKSP, Eastern Liturgies - and dare I say the SSPX - to help us become more Catholic.

[@Adam-fj9px]

I agree, funnily in the Young Pope Pius XIII mentions something similar, he'd rather have a smaller church where everyone are actually devout believers compared to a church full of people who don't really believe anything that the church actually teaches

[@michellemcdermott2026]

I agree 100 percent

[@michellemcdermott2026]

@@Adam-fj9px It would be better and grow stronger

[@ninjaked1265]

I’ve seen Protestant mindsets in some traditional Catholic circles too

[@Amdgomer]

I said that because of the experience of my old NO parish. We were introducing- AND WITH SOLID CATECHESIS- various traditional practices that are supposed to be in the NO and we watched as people became vicious savages to our priests and staff. People were enraged with chant, antiphones, incense, communion plates, and with less Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. We didn't really do much else than that, with the exception of some Sunday Masses that had more traditional hymnody than just 1970's Gather Hymnal and later Praise and Worship, but that wasn't at all of the Masses and at the few it was at, it wasn't every Sunday. Pure rage. It woke me up to what I call "The Iron Law of Vague Sentimentality" present in many NO masses. Again, not saying the NO isn't the Mass, but the elements of increased didacticism and lay participation led to a level of radical experimentation that we did not see with the TLM. The TLM's abuses are many, but the cause for them was not built into the TLM itself. The N.O. allows for so much "flexibility" that it engenders abuse 9/10 times. The TLM did not have this rubric anywhere: "In these, or similar words".

[@stephenjohnson7915]

One thing that biases these discussions is that only the state of the faith in the United States is usually discussed. The faith has exploded in other places, like Africa, while using the new Mass. No, that’s not proof of anything per se, but the “bring back the Latin Mass” movement is awfully myopic. Remember that all the problems we’ve experienced were foisted on us originally by men formed by the TLM. It’s not the one-stop solution some people think it is.

[@mosesking2923]

Faith has increased in Africa and Asia only because of birth rates. Not because of conversions to the Catholic faith. Not to mention, growth in numbers is useless if people are poorly catechized with lessening belief in the real presence. Just look at Latin America: used to be 96% Catholic and is currently 55% Catholic. Many Latin American Catholics have left to join Protestantism. The church should not be devoted to a failed council from the 1960's and an inferior liturgy created by a committee.

[@stephenjohnson7915]

As I say, the numbers are not proof, and that works both ways. And since the Council didn’t prescribe the new Mass as it currently exists, or any other recent innovations, I’m not sure how it “failed.” All that really happened after the Council was unbelieving and lukewarm Catholics decided they didn’t want to pretend anymore. The rot was well and truly present before the Council.

[@John-es3im]

Africans are converting , it's beautiful to see how they are leading the way in the Catholic world while Americans just bicker with each other about who's the more Catholic and are obsessed with dividing everything and labelling .

[@bumponalog5001]

​@@verityvinyl8540You are dripping with arrogance about something you just admitted you don't even understand.

[@augcaes]

@@verityvinyl8540you want to participate? Then go volunteer at a charity.

[@Adam-fj9px]

I've never attended a novus ordo in my life only latin mass, don't think I'm missing out

[@Ingwe01]

You don't know how lucky you are. Thank your parents.

[@bumponalog5001]

Understand you have a great gift that fuels your faith, treasure that and pass it on.

[@RickW-HGWT]

Sure your missing out ! , liturgical dancers , communion in the hand , disrespect for God , poor catechesis, happy clappy music suited for a campfire , really bad music that leaves you confused rather then inspired . A focus on current events at the expense sound doctrine , and my personal favorite the asinine sign of peace that wastes time and adds nothing of significance to an already bad mass . The TLM is a feast , the NO is a happy meal , when they speak of a reverent NO it has to ape the TLM to have any reverence , that they are still trying to sell this debacle shows how bad it is.

[@Operation.sprinkled.donuts]

It depends if I'm able to receive communion on a daily basis, where the norvis ordo is the only available mass as opposed to the Latin mass then yes, I would be missing out since the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith ."but purely liturgically speaking, I can see your point.

[@Adam-fj9px]

@@Operation.sprinkled.donuts fortunately my parish is daily latin. I'm very lucky

[@sylvied3312]

We fled the NO because of our children. All our family members and friends lost their faith un these last 60 years. The more we learn about the TLM the less we are likely to go back. We will go the catacumbs if we have to.

[@bd555]

I remember Fr. George Rutler writing in his book "A Crisis of Saints" that gone into a mist are the days when Priests had to warn people away from converting to Catholicism because of the beauty of the liturgy. He stated that we gave up the beauty and reverence of the traditional Latin Mass just at the time when people are attracted to color, form, and action more than ever. 🤔

[@liquidGold79]

The acorn grew into a big beautiful oak tree. Then we chop off healthy and vitally important limbs and have the novus ordo. The NO has much more potential for liturgical abuse. The writing is on the wall, it is painfully obvious. We must return to TLM. My opinion is there is zero room for NO in future of church because of the novelty in it. If we are intellectually honest, the NO has got to go.

[@athosnogueira6755]

indeed

[@chasedudek3136]

Agreed. A liturgical revolution forced on us by a freemason has no place in Christ's church.

[@adammeyer3129]

The NO could implement a lot from TLM, with the only real differences being altar rails, language and ad orientum. It woul be possible for the NO to follow the same procedure as TLM in most aspects. The big difference would then be whether people want to go watch a mass celebrated vs being involved in the celebration of mass. They could be nearly the same and just as reverent.

[@juliathelittle7007]

I have a degree in sacred music from Franciscan University of Steubenville and his definition of sacred music and religious music at 6:45ish is so so good.

[@Amdgomer]

winning!

[@edwinml9860]

Proud to hear about the story of Syro Malabar chants 😊

[@richubabu8990]

Yes!

[@eshebert1]

Mr. Gormley asked whether there is more attendance now than in the 50's and 60's. The 50's and 60's is when my parents grew up. For at least one set of grandparents who raised my parents pre-Vatican II, they were not regular church goers. Responsibilities on their farm was the main reason provided for irregular attendance. My dad didn't go to mass with us; only 2 times per year. Now in my 40's I am learning more and more about my faith and how little my parents instilled a since of love, awe and appreciation of the Catholic faith (didn't get any of that from my grandparents either). For my experience, this has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo at all, but how one lives their faith and shares it with others. Thankfully, I was exposed to such things when I met a fabulous group of women at a Walking With Purpose Bible Study at my parish....it grew from there. You never know how God will guide you or who he will put in your path to serve his purpose. Thankful every day!

[@kamilziemian995]

"For my experience, this has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo at all, but how one lives their faith and shares it with others" I think Saint Paul VI will disagree with you. He have high hopes for his new form of Mass, which times disprove quite well.

[@darlameeks]

Well said!

[@Amdgomer]

Let me clarify. The West has been rapidly de-churching for centuries, not just since 1960. My point is not to blame the NO for those leaving the Church but to highlight one point. When St. Paul VI instituted the N.O., he openly owned all of the sorrows and woes that would follow, but it was worth the bargain because the new rites would be adapted to modern man and thus bring about the evangelization of the nations. I'm not saying the TLM (again, I don't attend the TLM) was magically holding all Catholics in the Church. What I am saying is the main reasons given by the Pontiff did not happen. At all. Did not even slow down the trend. Instead, it traded for novelty what Roman Catholics for around 1600 years had understood to be the solid liturgical life of the Church. Entire nations were converted during the Gregorian Latin Mass (Pre-Trent Latin Mass).

[@Verdaula82]

Seminarian here. It seems to me that more and more priests and priests-to-be have a traditional sense when it comes to the mass. And so do the younger generations of believers. So I can hardly see the ordo staying the same in the coming years. Still, I'm grateful for the novus ordo as it brought some good things like the lectionary, the use of the vernacular and the effort to include the people in the Sacrifice (which we should all keep). I believe the use of the 1965 missal with those good innovations would be a great thing to serve the need to announce the Gospel and to appease the ridiculous liturgy tensions we see today in the West. Christ is always first!

[@Tttb95]

Why did they take out 1 Cor 11 from the entire lectionary? How is it possible that the epistle from Holy Thursday, and Corpus Christi in the TLM was completely omitted? Funnily enough the episcopacy is scratching their heads on the lack of belief in the True Presence, when you take out one of the most important pieces of scripture and remove any reference to a sacrifice/oblation in some Eucharistic Prayers. Also the translations suck so much for the NO. Not sure how it is in other languages, but they have deliberately mistranslated the words of consecration (or words around it more specifically). Why was this done? Im assuming bishops arent morons, so the answer must be nefarious.

[@Verdaula82]

@@Tttb95 This reading was not removed from the Lectionary. Also, this year, 1 Cor 10, 16-17 was used for Corpus Christi, along with John 6 and the sequence Pange Lingua. Also, reminding you that the original language of the 1970 missal is Latin. The words of consecration have not changed has the text of the canon is the very same as in the vetus ordo. Now, could be that the English translation is poor, but this is a different problem, which can and should be changed (I encourage you to find a 1965 missal to check the translation). Now, it's important for me to outline that the lack of belief in the true presence and overall crisis we're going through is not a liturgy problem. Otherwise, why would the Church develop so well in Africa, Asia and parts of Europe ? The problem is a faith-related one. In the West, the priests and sometimes even bishops had heretical views, including on the true presence, which they have transmitted to their flock. As a consequence, liturgy became a mess.

[@Tttb95]

​@@Verdaula82 Yes it was. Show me where 1 Cor 28-29 are included in the Novus Ordo. I think you may find one daily mass in the 2yr cycle that may include it but it is definitely not on any Sunday. You are correct that the Latin is the same. But the English was deliberately changed? Why would this be? Either the curia are stupid or they are nefarious, and I dont think they are stupid. Your last point I still disagree with. The church isnt exactly thriving in Asia or anywhere in Europe. Some places like Poland are doing alright, but Western Europe is rotting. Africa is largely driven by culture and demographics. Also the new mass encourages changes and deviations. Yes GIRM 24 says you cant add anything, yet that doesnt stop NO priests. We need strict rubrics and to instill humility in priests during the mass. In the Usus Antiquor the priest used to profess his unworthiness and ask for penance before he reached the altar. Now the priest just walks straight up. Will this fix heterodoxy? No. But its a darn good place to start.

[@FranzValer]

I m totally agree

[@Justin-yn5py]

@@Verdaula82I believe the problem of unbelief in the Eucharist can be both a liturgical and faith problem. Lex Ordandi Lex Credendi, the way the liturgy is done reinforces your belief and the NO overall doesn’t take communion as seriously or as reverently as the TLM. The belief in the real presence at the TLM is 99% while in the NO it’s only 40-60%

[@emily43210]

I like the Novus Ordo. I was taught a lot about the faith as a kid (Catholic school for a few years/and a fairly religious mom) which had a much bigger affect on my faith than the weekly Mass. A couple years after I left the Catholic Church, I went through a tough time and my Mom asked me to come to Church with her. It was Novus Ordo, and I remember feeling a sense of peace when I was there, and I began to feel very engaged, emotional to tears at the moment the bread became the body. I don't find the Novus Ordo to be irreverent, though there is a range. Latin Mass is not for me (maybe I'd change my mind had I gone to it more often). I think the Novus Ordo churches I go to ate very reverent but also not cold, and one of the churches I go to regularly uses a guitar, one doesn't (but it's very beautiful/calm and not like rock), and the one with the guitar has started using kneelers when the Eucharist is given, and most people have been kneeling to receive the Eucharist. They both have beautiful art (one is small old style church design, one has an Eastern kind of design with huge icons of Jesus/apostles under the dome, and both have tons of art/statues of saints, lots of stained glass, and words over the alter space like "Blessed be Jesus in the most holy sacrament of the altar" and the other "I am the bread of life". I left the faith because I was questioning the evidence for God, and dealing with problems, and when I stopped going, it was much easier to let go of the whole faith. I think a bigger problem is the way people are being taught about God and the faith (I started hearing about indulgences etc in high school and reading Thomas Paine and things which made me seriously question everything), and wanting to live your life with ease (I struggled with sin/incorrectly thought that any intrusive thought was a sin etc and I tried repressing which obviously made it worse. Plus watching a lot of secular content which became incompatible made it easier to slip out of it. I think blaming the Novus Ordo may be a silver bullet when the actual problem is that there may be a lot of things we cannot control that are problems (like that people are watching incompatible shows/media, being immersed in a non-Catholic, often anti-Catholic culture).

[@andym5995]

As Dave Armstrong says in his book Mass Movements, “Liberalism came from within the Church insofar as it took hold among many prominent Catholic theologians and spread to the schools and seminaries. The late great Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J. (my mentor, who received me into the Church) used to say that the "revolution" began around 1940. I disagree that any part of the cause is located in the official decrees of an ecumenical council or the teaching of popes. It comes from liberal dissidents and the negative influence of the surrounding increasingly secularized and amoral or immoral culture.”

[@brigittedecdumee9894]

@@andym5995 Very true!!!

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

Indeed. The collapse began well before the Novus Ordo. The 4:36 graph shows that. In Britain the precipitous decline began in 1960. It was the old church that dropped the cultural reins.

[@blindabraxas]

This clip has inspired the desire in me to watch the full episode.

[@Amdgomer]

excellent. You should put it in double speed.

[@blindabraxas]

@@Amdgomer this happened. Solid.

[@ericw3517]

I was recently at an Episcopal church for Sunday services. They had a very liberal theology, LGBTQ-friendly, open communion for all baptized Christians, etc. But as for the worship style: priest in very traditional vestments, altar servers, reader, and entire choir in cassock and surplice, thundering organ and many 19th century hymns. When receiving the Eucharist all who were able knelt at the altar rail. After all came back to the pews, the elderly and infirm simply raised their hands and the priest came to them individually with the host. It was a small but beautiful wood-framed gothic church. You could tell many Catholics were there, when they said "proceeds from the Father and Son" during the creed. Some even held rosaries.

[@terencestewart2233]

We actually use the Altar rail at my Novus Ordo Mass and they use the patent.

[@tradissimuscrae2996]

Could you imagine how hollow preaching about a loving God would have sounded between 1914 and 1960? The sin, evil, and inescapability of Satan in the world was impossible to avoid. There is a reason that judgement was a major issue before Vatican II. The problem was the church didn’t build a bridge to the world, and the church didn’t bring itself to the world, it brought itself to specifically the Boomers, a very uniquely selfish and atomized generation in world history. Love is a natural element of the old liturgy, it’s something we suddenly discovered post Vatican II and can apply to the old liturgy. It’s already there.

[@sarahdiana8934]

Altar rails seems like a simple place to start. One church in my area uses them and parishioners can choose to either kneel or stand. This doesn't give the modernist parishioners much to complain about since they still have the choice to stand.

[@Ignats75]

Modernists. Like they're a separate tribe. The only separate tribe is the MAdTrads. everyone else will generally do what the bishop requests. If he says put the altar rails back, we'll all kneel. If not we won't BUT WE WILL STILL RECEIVE THE BODY AND BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST either way. Let's focus on what is important here.

[@Ignats75]

@SanctusPaulus-ic5gl if you highly doubt it then you are living in some fantasy world. But, that will never happen. I know for a fact that the bishop of my diocese is seriously considering a ban of the TLM at all parishes and designating specific non parish churches as the only places allowed to celebrate it.

[@Rendasd]

Soon, our Latin Mass will NOT be allowed in Church, our Priest will be conducting the TLM in a near by chapel, I have no idea if we're all going to fit. But this was apparently sent from up top. WHY would they actually want to do this? Our Novus Ordo Mass on Sunday is 8am, 9:30am and 11am and we have just one TLM for 12:15pm which is now no longer allowed in Church. Just why? this is ignorant. It's not interfering with anything.

[@Leocomander]

Considering the fact that Bishops tend to be intolerant of the reverent Novus Ordo more so than the TLM I do not see a bright future for the New Rite of mass. Unfortunately we have made liturgical mediocrity the standard in 95% of NO parishes.

[@Judithleaver]

Great 👍 Bring back Altar rails , reception of Jesus on our knees , the Paton , chant and uplifting liturgy that lifts outs hearts souls to God. We need to put God first in our liturgies and lives 🙏🙏

[@Jayce_Alexander]

I will gladly kneel before the body of our Lord. It's what I want. I want to be as reverent as possible, because He deserves no less. It feels so weird to me that people are even being rebuked by their priests for doing this.

[@RickW-HGWT]

It tells you how bad the priesthood has become, some I have found believe they are persona Christi , not acting in persona Christi.

[@SalmonSparrow]

11:40 That old times were ill does not automatically mean that the remedies were appropriate

[@kelvinthomas9753]

It will disappear everywhere

[@Cuestionate]

I agree with his view so much. Being from a TLM community, I have experienced so much judging and rules and Gods love is rarely spoken of. As a consequence it has breed many judgemental and love lacking people.

[@patriciagabig9912]

Born in ‘59, raised in the PA coal cracker region, I had the benefit of TLM until 1970. I found the NO guitar masses engaging for a bit but as years went by couldn’t understand why the young children did not appreciate the reverence of the Mass. One thing that had never occurred to me until I heard it was that TLM was the same around the world. Imagine that. It was universal. You could go anywhere in the world and the Mass would be the same. I think part of the problem is poor catechesis. At 64 I am still learning the of beauty and depth of Catholicism. How much symbolism there is and their meanings. The quasi-parish (FSSP) I attend doesn’t share the sentiment that the NO is going away. Quite the opposite. They are afraid their Latin Mass will be taken away and we pray daily that it will remain.

[@Christofascist_Hup]

Are you at St. Mary's in Conshy?

[@patriciagabig9912]

@@Christofascist_Hup No, St. Lawrence in Harrisburg.

[@TheProdigalCatholic]

When I first came back to the Catholic Church, I mainly went to either a NO or TLM, the NO I’ve gone too and still go to from time to time, is thankfully more on the reverent side of things, but about a year or so ago, I was introduced to the Ordinariate and fell deeply in love. I even alter serve there now. 9 year old me would go crazy if he knew 🤣

[@Grandream]

The paten, ad orientem, altar rails, AND no more extraordinary ministers. I'm personally also not a fan of lectors. I generally avoid my parish's NO services specifically for this alone. I would much rather my deacon do the readings and the priest to give the announcements before the homily. The altar servers are also important too. I remember one parish I went to, full of children in the pews, but they only had two servers. Both elderly women in their 70's - 80's. That said, I still attend the NO on occasion. Just depends on the time I'm able to attend. It's still a valid mass, I know, but I find more things in the NO to get distracted by.

[@ravjrsworld9796]

While Mother Theresa got busy tending the poor and the sick, not once had problem attending the LM or N Ordo, then later proclaimed a saint, we have here two people busy high praising LM over N Ordo, but probably not truly lived the teachings of the Catholic Church of comforting the sick, the poor and the voiceless.. of what value are these traditional rites when real servitude, mercy and compassion are wanting?

[@calebmundle5948]

The Tridentine mass and Novus Ordo are both great, and all are free to partake in whatever one they prefer.

[@rishg134]

Free to travel hours sometimes to partake in Tridentine mass*

[@dargosian]

@@verityvinyl8540 Now imagine if every time you went to Mass, anywhere at any time, it was a "special occasion thing" -- like it's meant to be. Right. That's why people want a return to the Tridentine Mass, so that "the only option" available to them qualifies as more than 'good enough'.

[@Tttb95]

@@verityvinyl8540 " it literally is "traditional" to me" This is the fundamental problem with your view. Who is the mass for? Does the priest offer up the sacrifice for you? The question you need to ask is "is this mass the best humanity can offer up to God?". Are the EP2-4 anywhere near as good as the Canon? Are the new Offertory prayers just as good as the old? Is the new lectionary, that removes a lot of difficult biblical passages good or bad? Even on the effects of the mass on the laity? When you go through the rubrics, does the NO or the TLM emphasize the need for reverence and unworthiness of the people in attendance? Even superficially. Is Gregorian chant, or even the polyphony of Mozart, Bach and Haydn, better than Marty Haugen, Dan Schutte and most other contemporary artists that appear frequently in Western English NO?

[@calebmundle5948]

@@dargosian the novus ordo can and should be - and is for most people - a “special occasion thing”, just like TLM. Both are sacred and legitimate. The only reason one may say that the tlm is a “special occasion” is because it is less common and often far away, not because it is somehow “better” or “more sacred” than the novus ordo. Both are of course special occasions.

[@tdexter4959]

The problem with the "God is Love" homilies we often get in NO churches is that the 'love' they describe bears no resemblance to the Almighty God of the Bible and Sacred Tradition. Their idea of love seems to be something like niceness, or one of the other woke virtues. It's not the all-consuming fire that changes your life, something that makes you turn away from sin.

[@gunsgalore7571]

As a young guy, I think a lot of people who really, really hate the Novus Ordo (Ordinary Form) of the Mass and call it a clown show, Protestant service, cartoon, or whatever must have been raised in the 70s and 80s when it was really that bad. I know my grandfather (as a recent convert from Episcopalianism) used to go to a Byzantine Rite church before he started the Anglican Ordinariate with a bunch of other ex-Episcopal priests. But he always told me that the Novus Ordo now versus the Novus Ordo then is like night and day. He said he loved how much more reverent it is than it used to be, at least in our archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. But I think it's still fair to argue that the Novus Ordo isn't perfect. In many churches I have been to, it can feel bland, especially when the choir consists of 90% Baby Boomers who are really starting to lose their voices anyway... I've seen at least one attempt at a youth choir, but they botched it by bringing in a blues lead guitarist. Great guy, devout Catholic, and excellent guitar player, but when you have a four-minute blues solo in the processional hymn that basically ends with the priest staring you down until you stop playing, you know you're doing something wrong.

[@christophersalinas2722]

Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston?

[@gunsgalore7571]

@@christophersalinas2722 I'm sure that you are asking with good intentions, but I wish to keep my identity secret while using the internet. I've posted a lot of comments on a lot videos, and while I never try to offend anyone, I'm sure there's plenty of people out there with a bone to pick with me. Thus I will refrain from telling you where he was a priest, as one could probably find the rest of my info from there.

[@shell41arotc]

This one needs about 1000x more views.

[@patrickandscarlettginty7823]

I agree with a lot of these ideas, especially that of the loss of the sense of the sacred and reverence, etc. The one disagreement I have is that one of the greatest developments in the Church since the close of the SVC and the introduction of the Missal of Paul VI is precisely the evangelization of the nations. The growth of the Church in Africa and Asia is one that has not been seen many times in history. The last time may have been after the discovery of the New World. Would the same growth still have occurred without the introduction of the vernacular and a more accessible and malleable liturgy. I do not know. But it is worth considering.

[@tomredd9025]

Yes, I agreed with you. I thought the remark about the lack of evangelization was very disingenuous. The Church is really growing worldwide. However, I do have to disagree with you on the lack of reverence in the Novus Ordo. Never, once have I saw a lack of reverence at a Novus Ordo Mass. As an old fogey, I served hundreds of Latin Masses in my youth. Talk about a lack a reverence. Truly, the Heavens were crying out for reform. The Latin Masses I served were rushed, mumbled and the congregation did not pay attention. Most said the rosary. The priests wouldn't even let us altar boys finish our responses. When the Novus Ordo was promulgated, it was if the Heavens opened with a New Pentecost!

[@ericah4232]

Great clip. Love you guys. Wrong full episode link in description.

[@John-es3im]

In Africa nearly every country has seen a huge growth in Catholicism since Vatican II

[@unholy.latin.republic]

Doesn't help save the cradle of Christianity (Europe)

[@michellenorleen3427]

No hun not “every country” but most beautifully Africa! Amen

[@AnalogKid333]

The African seminaries are filled up with men who want a ticket to America

[@masonite6450]

This is actually disingenuous. Africans have a huge love for the Latin Mass, and the numbers looked very good BEFORE VII. It actually dampened the potential growth.

[@Christofascist_Hup]

@wheatandtares agreed, but you can't know the inverse either.

[@michaelmartin4947]

That ending comment was incredible and i agree!

[@Amdgomer]

You're welcome!

[@Christofascist_Hup]

This is a phenomenal question. First of all it includes an implied recognition that serious Catholics are opting for options outside of the novus ordo. Yes, there is a large remnant that is either too old to reproduce, too worldly to be fruitful, or too few to matter. Yes, this Remnant sees the writing on the wall as funerals exceed marriages and baptisms; and yes, this makes them almost entirely too bitter to accept invitations into the liturgical space where Catholic life is flourishing. Secondly, in response to the question itself, I expect the novus ordo to go out with a whimper. In the same way that families attending traditional masses need to drive hour or more sometimes to worship, the devotees of this liturgical experiment will need to sacrifice as parishes close at an accelerating rate. Many will just cease to go to mass, just as they did after covid.

[@PimpMyDitchWitch]

Perhaps it will go away if the episcopacy does nothing to fix it. But we really shouldn’t make the Tridentine liturgy normative. It was made with the sacrificial aspect cranked way up because of the reformation. The NO (and I don’t mean the 70s throwback kind that just won’t die) is roughly an abbreviated version of business as usual.

[@Christofascist_Hup]

@@PimpMyDitchWitch you'll have to demonstrate both what you mean by "sacramentality cranked up" and why that is a detriment.

[@fr.hughmackenzie5900]

The collapse began well before the Novus Ordo. Your 4:36 graph shows that. In Britain the precipitous decline began in 1960. It was the old church that dropped the cultural reins.

[@LinaSis9]

I have friends who go to a parish where the Latin mass is offered once on Sunday. The parish counsel wanted to ban Latin being sung at the parish. So yes I agree that people would leave if the novus ordro changed

[@patricmanda4665]

That’s fine if they can’t except Tradition see ya boomers

[@joefranks4235]

I am ready to go underground to attend the TLM if necessary.

[@JordanToJericho]

Don't know if anyone will see this but how would the liturgy be fixed? Is there a way or even a real movement to do so? I'm starting RCIA and this is one of my biggest struggles between orthodoxy and catholicism. I believe Catholic Theology, but I also feel starved for tradition compared to Orthodox divine liturgy. But there are no Eastern Catholics anywhere near me.

[@Amdgomer]

There are many movements to do so, the problem is, there are movements to do the opposite as well. What are you looking for can be found on the internet by googling around, but the "New Liturgical Movement" and "CC watershed" are good places to start. They aren't haters of the NO or Pope Francis but are trying to build up the kingdom of God and keep the liturgical patrimony and inheritance of the Church. You can also google "The Reform of the Reform" for such movements.

[@cdron23]

You are so right, I'm looking at the Eastern Rite as there isn't a Latin Mass community close.

[@RickW-HGWT]

Your in good hands with the Eastern Rite, stick with them, lot of incense and singing the liturgy , but it will do you and your soul good, God bless.

[@josegargallotatay1999]

Where can I find the graphs shown in the video??

[@joelpenley9791]

Come on Matt, don’t be afraid to speak the truth. Mass attendance today is exponentially lower then it was 50-60 years ago. That is a fact. Now, is all of that because of the NO? Certainly not but the NO has not prevented this and we can point to things in the NO that has contributed.

[@pugetsound1272]

I think he hesitated to give an answer because in his personal experience, he has seen a higher church attendance in his adulthood versus years ago in his youth. He knew the speaker was trying to get him to say the opposit.

[@joelpenley9791]

@@pugetsound1272 maybe but that doesn’t make sense. Everyone knows that attendance at Mass is declining, Catholics are leaving the faith in droves. Overall that is the trend and that is what is being referred to. If Matt has personally experienced something different would be an anomaly that might be important to consider but would disprove the bigger point being made.

[@gavinmedinaofficial]

Protestant here just to say, wow this was angled right. I'm in constant contact with an SSPX perish with concerns, and when Michael said that "you could do everything right, but forget to love" AH. GOSPEL. LITERALLY. AMEN!

[@AlexE5250]

Anyone else think it’s funny that “Tradition Latin Mass” is English and “Novus Ordo” is Latin?

[@Conorthedad]

The Novus Ordo went hand in hand with a mass loss of faith in Eastern Canada.

[@Eviac]

This is so so so true.

[@Wildwest89]

Novus order is usually fantastic in my area at the Churches I have attended. Instead of complaining accept what the Church has given you and be part of the solution.

[@youkokun]

The problem we're drawing attention to is the fact that the Vatican robbed generations of continuously developed heritage in favor of ecumenical rips and short changes.

[@mayday24916]

I was a militant atheist for most of my adult life before settling into a comfortable agnosticism for a few years. I started having questions, but I still wasn't too serious. Then I'd heard about RCIA, so I looked into it (I was baptized into the Catholic faith as an infant, but that's about the only religious influence bestowed upon me by my parents). I became a student and was confirmed into the Roman Catholic faith last Easter. Since then I've been taking my faith very seriously. The more I learned, the more hollow I felt at my own church. I know the most important part of the Mass is receiving the Eucharist, but I started feeling alone at my own church. The community is wonderful, but I wasn't enjoying how little interaction we got with the priest. Other than receiving my confession, I could never actually speak with our priest. I started developing so many questions and felt like I couldn't speak to anybody. Our priest never seemed to enjoy talking to his parishioners. My Catholic friends don't understand their own faith (this is how I learned about cradle Catholics), and my Protestant friends use every question I have as an opportunity to blame all my problems on the heresy of Catholicism. The last straw was forcing myself to go to Mass and having to watch our church theater group (I didn't even know we had a theater group???) put on a ridiculous play about diversity and racism. The priest didn't even give his homily. Somewhere along the way the Roman Catholic Mass became all about us. After that I decided I was done and I haven't been back since. I knew I wasn't being fed spiritually and that it was time to go. During my struggles I started reading about Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy. A few weeks ago I visited a Byzantine church and it blew me away. I'd never experienced anything like it before. I felt like my senses were taken over by something greater than me. There was so much reverence and I left that first service knowing I'd return. I attended a second Divine Liturgy and the priest received my confession. I've only met the priest twice, but I felt more comfortable with him than I do with the priest who confirmed me at my old church. I have a feeling I will find what I'm searching for in the Eastern church. I don't want to disrespect my old church, because those people helped me to find my faith and many of them have become good friends. And I know their hearts are in the right place. I know I'm still a "baby Christian" but something didn't sit right with me and I couldn't pretend anymore. So yeah, I think there's something to be said about people craving tradition.

[@jitiy3642]

I agree though that you’re not enlightened enough to just try to make Norvus Ordo more reverent because there are more issues such as the different calendars that we follow TLM vs. NO are different and there were various feasts/solemnities removed or replaced as an “optional memorial”. I find that the Norvus Ordo parishes tend to end up being the pastor’s preference rather than what’s best for the people. For instance, even First Friday and Saturday devotions are rare in NO parishes at least where I am. Also some priests may acknowledge some “optional memorials” while other priests may not and so you’re never guaranteed if the Mass’ focus/intentions will be for that feast. There is disunity because of the various options in the NO Mass and parishes. I can go to one NO Church and it can be very different from another NO Church that’s only minutes away from each other or within the same Diocese (whether it’s the music, tv’s, placement of the Tabernacle, sign of peace, etc.). But on the other hand, inTLM, they all do the same thing, and no feast/traditions is withheld from us. There is unity and consistency in TLM.

[@jitiy3642]

Long story short, options cause confusion and confusion is not from God. And God works in patterns to show us His will, He is consistent and doesn’t leave us wandering but assured.

[@PhunkMaster-VivatChristusRex]

Hopefully there will be a synthesis of the NO and the TLM.

[@Riawyn]

As a convert I’m not sure I would have converted if the mass was still mainly Latin. I like understanding what is going on.

[@Riawyn]

I haven’t tried a Latin Mass yet but I admit I’m kind of scared to.

[@dominusnox8231]

I’m a convert and if you haven’t experienced a high sung mass, definitely do so. It is beautiful. Transcendental.

[@Riawyn]

@@BornaFreshBornaGain not knowing what to expect and what to do when. I also have a really hard time kneeling and I know they are strict about that.

[@Mary-qs8tf]

Everything identifiably Catholic has been removed or concealed in the New Mass so as not to offend our separated brethren. The TLM is Catholic. It doesn't reflect worldly values. It's being humbled at the foot of the cross and realizing our unworthiness to receive the great gift of the Eucharist. Or, you could just go to a community gathering with comfortable seating, easy listening music, a little socializing, and a meal.

[@augcaes]

@@Riawyn yes, but they expectation is for you to kneel if you can. At my parish, the elderly and those with impediments seat at the front pews and the priest comes to give them communion first. The everyone else kneels. I understand that it may seem intimidating, but don’t hesitate to ask if you have any questions about the TLM!

[@edthestatesman]

You can see how they're trained to not answer difficult questions, replacing what would be an answer for prepackaged waffle

[@TNFLHT]

I believe the novus ordo is here to stay and the TLM will slowly be only done by the SSPX and entries like them.

[@bumponalog5001]

Interesting. Are you aware the Latin Mass is the one that is growing in popularity? The trends point to the opposite of your idea. Maybe you are right though, what makes you think that?

[@BouncingZeus]

ROFL. Considering NO is dying rapidly and TLM is growing.

[@RickW-HGWT]

The TLM is growing , that the NO is being propped up by bad prelates including bergolio tells a lot , his contempt for traditional religious and laity and his restrictions show him for what he is , neither holy nor a spiritual father.

[@michellemcdermott2026]

Our local FSSP has had 5 priestly vocations in 5 years. More than our entire Diocese.

[@TNFLHT]

@@bumponalog5001 I believe the laity desperately wants the TLM and I can see why. I just think the writing is on the wall and it is only a matter of time until the TLM is not allowed for Roman Catholics. I believe the next pope will be even more progressive than even Pope Francis. With documents like Traditions custodes and Pope Francis' picks for new bishops and cardinals it seems obvious to me at this point.

[@gion3250]

As a sacred musician who provides music for primarily 90% NO masses, the difference is categorically stark between singing at the NO and the Latin mass. Sacred music, i.e. Gregorian chant, is wholly integral and essential in the ancient rite. It naturally fits and makes sense. Singing it in the Novus Ordo often feels awkward and doesn't really work.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

I wish the Ordinariate would become the new standard for Catholicism at least in the United States and Anglophone countries. It really is the best liturgy in English. I respect that Latin goes back to the Apostles, I do, and I will always value that connection to our forefathers. But English is the lingua franca in the world in a way that Latin was in the Western Roman Empire and Greek was in the Eastern Empire. The cleaned up Anglican Liturgy really is the best kind of sacral liturgy that not only uses a common language everyone can understand, but that shows us HOW this language is used to talk to God. Anglicanism showed us how to talk sacrally, and Catholicism brought sacral English into alignment with the Truth.

[@Christofascist_Hup]

Honestly, as a TLM only guy, I'd concede from Abolishing the NO or consigning it to the dustbin of history to replacing it with the Ordinariate's Mass.

[@joshdalf9493]

I’ve been a diocesan Latin mass altar server for around 15 years now, and have never gotten to attend a ‘St John Cantius’-level NO. The odd thing is, something about seeing such NOs online draws me to them. Do I prefer the TLM, yes. Would I prefer it if St John Cantius was in my backyard? I’m not sure, honestly. Regardless, to those who struggle with the NO I suggest you do 2 things: 1) watch Fr Chris Alar’s talk where he walks through the NO step by step (it’s like 1-3 years old) & 2) read Scott Hahn’s ‘Supper of The Lamb’ I think when people go to the TLM and ‘don’t like it’ or just can’t ‘follow’ most people would suggest they need to simply understand it more; and rightfully so. Same thing for the NO. Due to the above 2 things my respect for the NO has really increased. Don’t try and ‘understand’ the NO better by only listening to those who dislike it. Imagine, again, if someone came to the TLM and to help them understand it better you had them watch videos of those who don’t like it. On a side note, I’ve heard that the number of Catholics have more than doubled worldwide since V2. So perhaps it has achieved its aim, outside of the western world. So, frankly, maybe what should be done is to let the non-western world have the NO so they can fine tune it to their cultures, but let us in the West always have what our cultures have fine tuned. But that’s just my opinion. I’m an advocate for ‘Cantiusizing’ The Church (doing what St John Cantius does- both as best you can)

[@jackbrunk3907]

Is the world becoming more or less Catholic since the dilution of the Mass?

[@ShawnComposer]

I am a protestant, I got tired of the non-reverent rock band so I started doing research into church history. I ended up at Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholism. I went to a western-rite Orthodox church and what I presume is a Novus Ordo church. I thought that the Novus Ordo mass was better than what I am used to, but still a little goofy. Then I went to Western-rite orthodox church, and it was night and day, so much better. From what I understand, the Latin mass is alot like the western-rite orthodox mass, but done in English. There are other reasons for why I am going Orthodox, but one of them on the list is a more reverent mass.

[@miracles_metanoia]

Eastern Catholic divine liturgy is the same as eastern orthodox divine liturgy

[@jmac4412]

There is only one Mass Pope St Pius V promulgated the Roman Missae in all perpetuity His Papal Bull Quo Primum settled this This is not about Latin or Vernacular This is about what is Catholic Do your proper homework please Additionally, do your due diligence, the seminaries do not teach what was taught before the modernists moved in in 1958. All the sacramental prayers were radically changed But the key change was the episcopal consecration of a Bishop rendering it null and void No valid Bishops, no valid priests, no valid priests NO sacraments This was a total sacking of the Catholic Church Please wake up 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@Christofascist_Hup]

That's way too black pilled for me

[@jmac4412]

@@Christofascist_Hup 100% true

[@flrevert]

Ya nailed it!

[@duaneadams5210]

The Novus Ordo drove me into the Lutheran Church where their Divine Service was MUCH MORE reverent. Eventually I joined the Continuing Anglican Church which had essentially the Traditional Mass in English, and done very reverently. It was the finding of the Traditional Latin Mass that brought me back into the Catholic Church, but two years ago, our elderly pastor retired and the bishop evidently thought that was a good time to coax we traditionalists back into the modernist mass and did not replace him with anyone who could or would celebrate the Traditional Mass, so therefore I don't go anywhere any longer. I WILL NOT go back to what drove me away in the first place.