Standard Cars Were a Mistake ...Or Were They?

[@CyanRooper]

I feel kind of conflicted about the quality of car models in Gran Turismo. On one hand, the car models in Gran Turismo 7 are the best I've ever seen with how realistic and detailed they are but on the other hand, they take up to 9 MONTHS to make. Each of the car models in Gran Turismo 3 and 4 took one month to make while each of the cars in Gran Turismo 1 and 2 took a week to make. The longer time to build models combined with licensing becoming seemingly trickier than before have led to a lack of variety in the car list. And that was one of the best things about Gran Turismo (even if a lot of the cars were essentially copy-pasted). Personally, I'd be okay with lower quality car models if it meant I could drive a lot more interesting and unique cars (regardless of whether they're supercars or sh*tboxes) rather than drive the same cars I've already driven hundreds of times in other games. Maybe not as bad as the reused car models in Forza but not so detailed that they take as long as a human baby to develop.

[@TheLeewi98]

This is part reason why I think Polyphony should maybe do a side game or something of that nature. Let it have a gt mode similar to gt3 and gt4 and with bigger car list but simpler car models, for example without interiors. Call it ”GT Classic” or something like that and aim it towards older fans of the series who want the return of the old style gt game with a lot of cars, tracks and challenges.

[@CyanRooper]

@@TheLeewi98 That would absolutely be something the fans would love but the issue is that Polyphony Digital doesn't have a large enough team for that and the costs to develop a side project and the costs of licensing for that game combined with the costs of continuing support for GT7 and whatever else they're currently working on would be too much for them. Also, I believe Polyphony Digital have set standards for themselves that they constantly try to beat with each game. Gran Turismo games always received praise for pushing the limits of the PlayStation consoles they were made for and Polyphony Digital pride themselves on that. Making a game with "worse" visuals is simply out of the question for them.

[@TheLeewi98]

@@CyanRooper yea I think you are right but one can dream. It does not sound like a move current Polyphony would do as they seem to rarely look into the past. Even though maybe sometimes they should and embrace the things that made the series so great in 90s and 2000s.

[@aojracing4885]

Yeah, wouldn't mind if the GT5/6 Premium cars with interiors were ported over as the new "standard" cars. It'd be like GT5/6 but the standards would obviously look better.

[@francoftv]

Licensing and timing issues as you said... This will be fixed only with communities mods of the old episodes of the series

[@FizzieWebb]

I like how the issue essentially boils down to a transparency difference between the two franchises. It's like once you go into business you forget the adage of "Honesty is the best policy." If a higher up at Turn 10, or even the series director themselves just stepped out and said in an interview "Yes, we will be reusing old car models, there's nothing wrong with them, they still hold up, and our attention was focused elsewhere in the game. We have some newer car models, but we want there to be more variety in our list of vehicles, which using these older models allows for." It would have significantly lessened the backlash.

[@shira_yone]

I think honesty still wouldn't have worked with Forza Motorsport, nobody in their right mind would admit that they're still reusing models from the very first installment of the series. As Rofl mentioned, Forza never had any generational leap akin to GT's "2 to 3" or "6 to Sport" model revisions. GT can reuse some models because they were actually decent and relatively easy to polish up, Forza Motorsport only manage to redo *one* car for their latest entry and kept the others outdated; it's just laughable.

[@GraveUypo]

@@shira_yone the standard models looked WAY more out of place than the bad cars in forza do though, as the ps2 models were incomparably simpler than the ps3 models, plus they lacked an interior altogether. you're just playing favorites there.

[@sylansylan4189]

​@@GraveUypo Now, I have grown up with both and I will sayz the GT Standard/non-interior model cars for the franchise look a lot better than what we have for the Motorsport Reboot, this is coming from someone who had a good time with FM7, H3, H4 and even FM6. But I could tell a few car models in the previous titles of the FM series were a bit off in terms of design, even moreso when you compare the PS2 and PSP models of the cars in GT5. Polyphony had the generational gaps between releases. GT2 to GT3 showed that they improved a lot of car models along with GT4. GT5 showed that they had improved tremendously with how the Premium Models looked and even showed they touched up the PS2 models a bit more come the release of GT6. As for the later FM and FH games? There was not really too many leaps, seeing as the first Xbox came out around the time of the PS2 and Gamecube, so Turn 10 did not have a lot of experience come the release of the next gen of consoles.

[@NitroGT78]

​@@sylansylan4189No way you're telling me gt5s standard cars look better than the FIVE incorrect models. Only people who really pay attention to the car will notice. The average person won't. But Gt5s standard cars stick out like a sore thumb.

[@sylansylan4189]

@@NitroGT78 Oh I have noticed more than just five of them. The only ones that seemed to be alright were the cars they made specifically for the Xbone entries. (A majority of DLC cars, NASCAR Gen 6 cars and a few F1 cars all look great. But most of the cars they could not properly license seem out of place.) And honestly, even if they do stick out like a sore thumb, they gave us more variety to use online in Gran Turismo than seeing the same types of cars being used in the upper to max tier ranks online on Forza Motorsport/Horizon (seriously, the number of times I saw the old school Charger in H3 was too often, and do not get me started on people using the GT40 in Motorsport 7 who then saw the Shadow Realm because of PTSD from GT2 or they saw how great the GT40 was in FM7)

[@markseaman6290]

With racing games in general, I think we're reaching a point where the time cost for super-mega-ultra-precise models is no longer worth it due to how empty it makes the game feel compared to the well-remembered titles. Trying to find this balance of quality versus quantity is one of many reasons why racing games have struggled in recent years; the modelling work produces beautiful cars, but then there's very few cars to go back to and replay with. Furthermore, depending on how the campaigns of the game are structured, this can then make the game feel more like a tour of the Lead Artist's handiwork than a gradual racing career progression.

[@CyanRooper]

Licensing also seems to be more of a legal minefield than before leading to less variety (heck, we'll probably never see certain cars in racing games ever again because of this) and less detailed damage models (I know not everybody cares about this but it was funny seeing the latest Forza Motorsport game's trailers showing off the damage models in slow motion and the damage models themselves not being as good as the ones from Forza Motorsport 2 or Need for Speed Prostreet, both games from 2007 lmao).

[@RukaGoldheart]

​@@CyanRooper you want a hyper detailed damage model? Go play BeamNG. Detailed damage model will NEVER happen in a mainstream game because manufacturers will never let it happen.

[@CyanRooper]

​@@RukaGoldheart *plays BeamMG with a smile on face while listening to the Burnout 3 soundtrack*

[@aaryeshg.6526]

​@CyanRooper Codemasters could do good damage models like in Grid/Dirt 1 and 2 and the older titles like TOCA Race Driver series and Colin McRae Rally. Nothing compared to BeamNG but was decent for something with licensed cars though. But now their current games don't have the same damage modelling thanks to manufacturers that don't like to see cars crumple like tissue paper. Understandable from advertising/licencing pov but lame from gaming perspective.

[@CyanRooper]

@@aaryeshg.6526 Yeah, that's what I was referring to in the part of my comment about Forza Motorsport 2 and NFS Prostreet having such detailed damage models despite using licensed real life cars instead of fictional ones. The games you listed are 6th or 7th generation console games and manufacturers were more lenient with car damage back then (but not all of them as Ferrari still wouldn't allow their cars to be fully destroyed in games hence the simplified damage models for Ferraris in Gran Turismo 5) but for some reason they are a lot more strict nowadays. It's especially odd since their current cars are significantly safer than what they had back then so you'd think showing those cars surviving massive crashes and keeping their occupants safe would be a great way to advertise their vehicle safety but they don't.

[@karigreyd2808]

I’m glad they included the standard cars. It made it so you can drive a huge amount of cars. And I’m more than okay with the carry over from Gt4

[@joshawott331]

Came to say the same, I which we could have gotten it for gt7. Just touch the cars up a bit. Gt6 was the peak to me playing with my friends and having ridiculous car builds

[@karigreyd2808]

@@joshawott331 I agree I love how many odd and weird cars they had in gt6.

[@Swat_Dennis]

At the end it was the "best" of both worlds; you got a very simple black and white interior. And in my opinion, they could've done this as a stopgap and slowly updated models along the way. And really, the Premium models of GT 5/6 are good enough if you ask me. GT-Sport and GT7 is kind of overkill. More cars and good handeling is all I want, there's a reason why Assetto Corsa is still the best racing games imo.

[@noggin6870]

I'd be okay with still having them now tbh. I don't give a shit about the graphics being true to life, I just want actual content.

[@CyanRooper]

​@@Swat_DennisAssetto Corsa is a game that is entirely about the handling model, though. What made Gran Turismo so popular was the combination of simcade handling, varied car lists and RPG-like progression (and great soundtrack). Comparing the two isn't really fair but I think most would agree with you that the PS3 era Premium car models are more than good enough and the emphasis should be more on the variety, handling and single player mode instead of photorealistic car models.

[@Mikauo_Xblade]

I have always loved the sheer quantity in gt5 and 6. Just being able to browse and always find something new is so great. It also makes the goal of collecting them all a much bigger mountain to climb.

[@gaetanoiannotta6618]

I just loved listening to the dealership music and looking around haha

[@purwantiallan5089]

​@@gaetanoiannotta6618agree. GT6 lounge and race musics are also no joke.

[@sherlock_backs]

@@purwantiallan5089 Fr, hate they are not in spotify

[@CDbiggen]

​@@sherlock_backs, same 😢

[@jwork5680]

honestly what i love in gran turismo is the amount of "normal people" cars, like the yaris/vitz the fit/jazz, mazda 2, etc makes the game feels more relatable and realistic because you actually own these car irl

[@clumsygarage1578]

I played GT5 as a kid, and unsurprisingly the lower quality graphics of the standard cars didn't bother me at all. Took me a while before I knew there was really a difference other than some cars not having cockpit view. Also, on the topic of Forza, I remember the developers saying that some car models would get touched up before FH5. Something that, as far as I can tell, literally wasn't true. In the new Forza Motorsport, they redid the Subaru Impreza 22B. It looks great, but the fact that they updated one car in the many years since FM7, and it's not even one of the ones that previously looked way off to me, is pretty pathetic.

[@D_LGND]

same I was disappointed there was no interior but I still didn’t mind driving them

[@poyayaan]

honestly i wouldnt mind standard cars that much as i rarely use inside view, and the more 90's economy boxes i can mess around with the better

[@purwantiallan5089]

Definitely.

[@pikkyuukyuun4741]

And heres where I disagree. I would rather inside view. with bettet quality cars over quantity

[@lordeilluminati]

but on GT5 they affected even the exterior view. It was extremely disappointing to see PS2 and especially PSP models looking very dull and distorted on the shiny new hardware that everyone knew it was capable to do more. On Forza and GT6 I dont mind that much because the difference is not big as GT5.

[@dusk33r]

With the semi premium cars, there is a few weird decisions they made. For example the Suzuki GSX-R/4. The whole car is just an unchanged PS2 model, except for the steering wheel, which is as detailed as the premium cars

[@CyanRooper]

"Kaz, why do I have to give this copy-pasted PS2 model the same detailed steering wheel as the cars I've spent 5-6 months on?" "My goals are beyond your understanding."

[@aaryeshg.6526]

There's also the Chrysler Prowler that had working gauge cluster despite being a PS2 model.

[@rodsk8dude731]

At first I made myself chuckle by understanding it as just the steering wheel of that car has as much detail as a whole premium car.

[@CyanRooper]

@@rodsk8dude731 lmao now that is overkill.

[@e-money9251]

@@CyanRooper kazunori yamauchi in a nutshell

[@CyanRooper]

Some of the shortcomings of Gran Turismo 5 and Gran Turismo 6 can be attributed to the PS3 being a difficult console to develop games for, even Kazunori Yamauchi said developing games for the PS3 was "a nightmare." Heck, Gabe Newell practically roasted Sony by calling the PS3 a "waste of everybody's time" and saying "it's harder to get [PS3 games] to the same standard as the 360 and PC versions" due to the complicated architecture of the PS3. There's a video by Modern Vintage Gamer titled "Why was the Sony PlayStation 3 so hard to develop games for?" that explains this perfectly.

[@thegarlicbread4422]

The PS2 was like that too, apparently, although not as painful. This is why the PS2 emulators can't quite get the same graphical quality as the original, because the PS2 had very unique hardware.

[@zacariascisneros6399]

And it shows in some titles. The Last Of Us is an example of this. Yes, it looks really good, but the performance left a lot to be desired

[@JustSomeDinosaurPerson]

@@zacariascisneros6399 Same goes for MGS4. The performance on some of the base PS3's, the slim and even the aging chonk ones could be abysmal at times.

[@purwantiallan5089]

​@@zacariascisneros6399The Last of Us has tons of performance degradation.

[@spongebobfan78]

This is also why Sony couldn't make PS3 games backwards compatible with newer ones. They already shot themselves in the foot with the PS3's architecture.

[@DustinEdenYT]

I think a key difference between GT Standard cars and Forza models is that they have different problems. GT Standard cars are low quality, as in the texture resolution and polygon count are low. Whereas Forza models, at least the ones that have been recycled for ages, aren't low quality but incredibly inaccurate. And I believe for people passionate about cars, inaccuracy is a much bigger crime. Especially with blatant examples like the Silvia S15, or even worse the Golf IV R32. With lower quality models you can at least suspend your disbelief and pay less attention to it as you focus on the track. While once you notice wrong proportions or missing/wrong parts on a car, it becomes hard not to look at it. This discussion always makes me wonder what the car manufacturers think about all this. They seem to be really insistent on limiting the damage model for these games as to have their cars always presented in a good light (which is nonsense but that's a topic for another day). Do they not care about Forza's inaccurate and outdated models? If I was CEO of marketing and licensing at Nissan and I'd take one quick glance at the Silvia S15 in the newest Forza game, I'd ask them to redo the model or pull it from the game entirely in a heartbeat. The idea that people may get the wrong perception of a car and end up not liking it because the proportions are all wrong sounds like anti-marketing.

[@Rafagafanhotobra]

I see the point of low fidelity of proportions ruining the gameplay, but I also see the standard cars as a bigger issue of consistency and immersion. You could immerse yourself with more ease with a fully modelled car in an interior view in FM4, instead of being stuck with the rear camera of some flat-looking standard car In GT5.

[@ImadHadjersi]

Exactly what I always thought. For example GT6's standard 206 RC still looked waaay more accurate in proportions than in FM4. Hell even the AE86 of Sega GT 2002 still looks more like an actual AE86 than the one in modern Forzas..

[@AuntieAliasing]

36:07 That's exactly what Turn 10 did with Forza Motorsport 1, 3 and 5 respectively. For example, the currently-used S15's original model was made for FM1 sometime from 2002-4 during FM1's development hell, its interior model originates from FM3 in 2009 (when Turn 10 started giving every single car a detailed interior, they retroactively modeled new interiors for cars recycled from FM1 & 2 that didn't previously have them), and PBR shaders were added for FM5 in 2013, later being revised with glass refraction shaders for the 2023 reboot

[@ImadHadjersi]

Whenever I say this, some people think I'm just imagining stuff, even though it's pretty obvious if you were there during the whole Forza evolution.. Like trust me, I played enough Forza and drove enough AE86s within it to tell you without a doubt that the modern AE86 we have now is still the same ugly shoebox model from FM1 with just more polygons and a cockpit view..

[@niismo.]

I love what you said about GT6 being the only game which feels like an interactive car museum (can't recall the wording) to this day. GT6 is my favourite Gran Turismo. It showed me sooo many different and exciting cars at a young age which I have sometimes even read the descriptions of, which were very informative and gave great context (although sometimes wrong, but I wouldnt know as a 8 year old). To be perfectly honest - and that's due to me bot being bothered by graphics too much - I would love a system like Standard Cars from GT5/GT6 in today's racing games. Be it GT, Forza oder anything else. For me, variation is king. Even having like 25 different MX-5 NA's in GT6, was cool to me. Because all these different cars have different specs with a higher probability someone owning his car, finding his very own spec which is super cool. Great video

[@Nobody-xe9fc]

4:57 I am low key impressed that you managed to save that going around Indianapolis.

[@H3llC4tEvo]

its lemans

[@NatsukiMogiIsBestGirl]

@@H3llC4tEvo Yes, but the corner is called Indianapolis

[@H3llC4tEvo]

@@NatsukiMogiIsBestGirl ah alr

[@Nobody-xe9fc]

@@H3llC4tEvo the corner not the track

[@Sunay_galo]

i know i am 10 months late, but this save was made by xTimelessGaming, and it's a video about Driving Mission 18, one of most watched on his channel btw

[@djungelskog2654]

Keep in mind Standard cars were also tweaked to work with the new physics Just buy 5 different Miatas and check the differences between them

[@BigBevev]

The production quality and way you communicate with the viewer makes for epic nostalgic and educational content, you deserve your views and your accent is comforting.

[@N7RiZe]

As a 3D model researcher (if that's even a term), most cars added in GT Sport and GT7 updates (that were in 5 and 6), were added in tessellation form. Tessellation models dynamically render as many polygons as required. This tech was added in GT6 with a small amount of cars but that's basically the Super Premium quality PD meant for PS4. Some cars like the Aventador and Mclaren MP4-12C are the non tessellation PS3 models in Sport and GT7. Some cars like the R33 GTR didn't even get texture updates. I think that's worse than reusing the premium models. Generally, cars added past 2010 were top premium quality as some GT5 Prologue and early GT5 cars lack the poly count to be ‘true’ premium cars, but that's probably beyond what people can see. I’ve said before that I don’t like PD’s tessellation models as they cut corners with it, quite literally. @Roflwaffle if you ever want a closer look into car model/texture quality then I’d be happy to help. I think PD should reuse the premium models from PS3 because they are better than what Forza or any other console game developers at this time can make. Great video as always!

[@H3llC4tEvo]

pretty sure that most cars have been retextured and have been atleast partially remodeled... other wise theyd looked just like upscaled models and wouldnt look like the real thing

[@N7RiZe]

@@H3llC4tEvo I don't think you understood my comment. Some get more attention than others. You see cars with only the exterior is tessellation, the whole car or nothing at all. Textures are a weird subject with GT since they are mostly low resolution anyway. Some just seem to reuse PS3 assets and PS4 resolution textures are half of what you'd expect. Especially with extra vram of the PS4 and PS5 it makes you wonder why PD only gets to the middle point: Not too low quality but also leaves a lot to be desired.

[@H3llC4tEvo]

@@N7RiZe i still dont get what you mean... they dont really look like they did that... they seem to be remodeled from the ground up or at the very least very altered... doubt tessellation would work that well on a car model

[@andreasmoller9798]

The car models is is insanely detailed in gt7 better than they ever was in gt6, but gt6 premium would still work decent in gt7 most of them is even better than forza models

[@H3llC4tEvo]

@@andreasmoller9798 exactly... they wouldnt really look too out of place... if they simply remodeled some areas they could have easy super premiums but whatever

[@bilbobeuli]

they never were a mistake, and I dearly miss them. car pool is just not big enough to have an old GT experience with the new games

[@Alvarito205]

Jajaja sorry but the car pool is the last problem in the new GT 7.

[@pedinhuh16]

​@@Alvarito205also, doesn't GT7 have close to 700 cars by now? And almost all of them with functional interiors too. That was never the problem with GT7 and GT Sport for that matter too.

[@paulnoell39]

​@@pedinhuh16Agreed. The problem with GT7 is the career mode is just God awful. Menu books are the worst thing that ever happened to the series.

[@swnidhs]

@@pedinhuh16 it has 500 ish cars

[@khandallah4725]

wow F197 here, there once was a time when you purchased a game and got lost for two years of enjoyment, wondering how a driving simulator will be improved. now the purchase of a game is the entry point to a financial relationship that will and can never be satisfied. i never knew how lucky i was to get out while it all looked so good. ps. my "retirement" plan was to game my heart's content until it stopped beating. maybe there will be a renaissance by then? until that day there is always outside to play.

[@CyanRooper]

The appeal of Gran Turismo 6 is actually the same sort of appeal of Need for Speed Most Wanted 2012, interestingly enough. Most fans of the Need for Speed series (specifically fans of the original Most Wanted from 2005) hated the lack of progression in Most Wanted 2012 (apart from the 10 Blacklist cars) but for the ones who loved the game, the lack of progression was one of the best things about it. The cars were all hidden out in the open world (the Blacklist cars became available after beating them) and it made the map feel like one giant playground where you could pick whichever car you wanted and mess around with it: drive aimlessly, wreck cops, do jumps and win races until you decided to jump into a new car (sometimes just driving around and switching to different cars the moment you came across them was entertaining enough). There was a kind of freedom in that type of gameplay that I haven't experienced in any other racing game. Gran Turismo 6 was like that multiplied by 100 but on closed courses instead of an open world and with the added bonuses of learning about the cars and the car companies that made them along with a photo mode. Obviously racing games with well thought out single player modes with good progression are better and they should definitely be the standard but Gran Turismo 6 and NFS Most Wanted 2012 offered a fun break from the usual standard and I think that's what makes them worth playing even if it doesn't appeal to everybody.

[@zacariascisneros6399]

It's really strange to find someone who likes both GT6 and NFS MW2012. Usually, they like one and hate the other... or hate both. I like both and usually play them on my PS3

[@spectr__]

I remember being so, so disappointed with GT3's lack of cars. Without internet at the time I didnt know why was that and kept thinking I had to unlock something, or my copy was a demo.

[@justjohnny420]

I was so disappointed in 3 by the lack of cars and I just went back to playing 2 and other games until 4 eventually came out, and I really loved 4. I am curious to sometime go back and replay 3, I'm certain I'd enjoy it a lot more now than I did then, going from 2 to 3 felt like a step backwards (other than graphics) at the time

[@fewielgo]

I skipped 3 for that exact reason! In fact I only got the ps2 when gt4 came out, one of those packs that came out with the game and a steering wheel. Not that there weren't other amazing games to play in ps2 but I was happy enough with the ps1. And still even after buying tons of other ps2 games I never got gt3. When the ps4 came out I wasn't interested in many games, and since gt7 lost all the cars I liked there was no reason to get the ps4. So my console life ended with the ps3.

[@jangelelcangry]

I was amazed by GT3's fidelity and polish it has. I was disappointed with GT5 because of how much time you spend on menus and loading screens (30 freaking seconds!). At least the load times and framerate was fixed with RPCS3.

[@indigomizumi]

I didn't touch 3 until years after 4. I don't actually mind the relatively small vehicle roster. My only complaint is the limited track roster (mostly because Test Course is massively overused).

[@mazdanoff]

It seems that each time Polyphony has to make a business decision, they just roll a d20

[@TheKusa5]

Gran Turismo 6 was my first Gran Turismo game and it was absolutely magical to see the sheer amount of variety of cars thanks to the standard cars in the game, I miss them.

[@abedekok322]

" .bUiLt FrOm ThE gRoUnD uP " At least Polyphony has standards in the first place

[@hirotwo2018]

14:04 I'm from future, in July 25th of 2024 Subaru 22b rally is going to be premium in gt7 but there's a little difference from gthd concept, is that from gt7 is the 1998 version while the in gthd is the 1999 version.

[@LyRaLex]

18:02 what makes it worse is the fact that it really is just a black outline... GT portable also had a black cut cockpit view but it was actually rendered in 3D i.e. you could see the hood/bonnet - while in GT5 you can choose a car with the longest hood/bonnet and you still couldn't see it in front of you. Don't get me started on the super stiff/fixed 3rd person view which is so static that it looks weird and is undriveable since you can't see the centrifugal forces which makes judgment difficult. They had it since GT4

[@shira_yone]

I disagree with the stiff cam take. To me it's far more useful to have the camera itself immediately move with the car, you don't feel detached from the car and every slight movement of the camera translates to instant car feedback (which is immensely needed on controller where you have almost zero feedback from the car). Many love the roof/hood/bumper and cockpit camera for a similar reason, camera moves means the car moves; with the generic swaying chase cam, the camera movement will (obviously) be delayed and you'll have to pay attention to your car to notice it's movement, attention that you could've instead spent on looking at the road ahead to take the appropriate racing line. Having stiff chase cam is the best of both worlds where you retains the precision of hood cam along with the better spatial awareness chase cam provides. People have knee jerk reaction to stiff chase cams because it's less cinematic or they're not used to it yet, but practice with it for a while and I bet many would have their lap times improved.

[@kristianangeloni]

That was pretty noticeable with Gr.C cars. I hit the wall so many times with the 905 just because I couldn't see the front of the car

[@BansheeNT-D]

In the end, Polyphony had all the licenses for the Cars.

[@SnowChickenFlake]

To counter-argue what you said at 31:31 - If They were to Not use the GT3/GT4 Models, then the decision as to which cars should be made would be Vastly different, and we would still get that Variety that you talked about Since they knew that they were going to use the older models, they didn't have the pressure to make Premium commuter models {but even so, they did with the Cappuccino - as you mentioned} meaning that they could make them if need be Nonetheless, Great video and keep up The good work! :D

[@SuzieB23]

I personally love the idea of porting the old cars forwards for a larger roster.

[@Exponaut_R-01]

Every time I hear someone complain about car models in any racing franchise (GT or Forza or otherwise, but these two get the most flak) I groan a bit because, either you have all of your favorite cars, some of them look a little dingy Or you can have Generation Leap Syndrome and get Forza 5 where there's 9 cars you're wondering where everything went

[@audi-71830]

and even then out of the 9 cars 5 were X360 models

[@ApocalypseMoose]

I'd like to just flood the CEOs of car companies' emails with pictures of their cars wrecked, just to prove to them, "yes, your car is not invincible. Stop treating them like they are."

[@ucros1912]

That's the main reason I still return to GT6 it is so good to have such a car variety, even in lower quality it's fun to drive them

[@Tornado2409]

fr

[@zacariascisneros6399]

GT6 is the GOAT

[@CyanRooper]

If Gran Turismo 6 had the same well-structured single player mode as Gran Turismo 3 or 4 then that game probably would've had near infinite replay value as a result (I mean, it kinda already does but the idea of having all cars available with no career path or whatever to unlock and give those cars purpose isn't that appealing to a lot of people but to the people that it appeals to, it is it's own unique freedom of gameplay).

[@Rzerac]

​@@CyanRooperI don't know why, but the only thing that shit me about Gran Turismo 6 was the lack of an 'analogue' gear shifting sequence. 😓 After playing Gt7 I find 6 hard to go back to because of that, which annoys me cos gt6 was my favourite 😅. Love how in 7 it sounds like someone's actually shifting gears

[@srdjanstevanovic4245]

I am very grateful for the standard cars decision, since it made it possible for me to drive the crx, prelude, and many others... something I will never experience in gt7

[@navycalvin9337]

A bit of fun little thing i found while playing GT4 On emulator is that if you use some cheat to force the camera into cockpit mode, you'll find some cars actually have silhouette of interior components. Some has seats, whippers, shaded dashboard or a rear mirror. For example ; Supra mk4 and Skyline R34 So they probably planned to have cockpit view in PS2 era but scrapped it

[@streamingvideo6654]

Yep, they were used in GT PSP.

[@D_LGND]

if you look at the convertible cars interiors in GT4, you can see the animations for the cockpit are really well done despite not being implemented in the game, and it was true that they planned to add a cockpit view but scrapped it due to time restraints

[@Fjdjfjsz92938]

I actually saw a full interior on the New York track, I believe I was using the mr2

[@HWTsuchiyaNathan]

cant wait for "MY TOP 10 FAVORITE THINGS ABOUT GT3 OR SOMETHING IDK" really excited for the 240p standard video goodness

[@ravageduckmanguy]

I think GT and Forza are both in a really rough position where they have to be a showpiece for their respective hardware. A game that looked just "OK" but had an insanely huge car and track list along with good fundamentals would be a dream come true for a lot of fans, but Sony and MS would never fund one even if PD or T10 wanted to make it, which I'm sure they don't.

[@MJ-uk6lu]

The focus on model quality is silly at this point. They should just set some baseline of good enough and keep adding more cars with more mods. In the end focus should still ultimately be on gameplay, races, physics modelling and AI.

[@Zhawn7]

@@MJ-uk6lu The sad thing about this is racing games has always been marketed for their graphical fidelity (In the eyes of developers and general audiences). It has been like this even since the mid 90s with games like Daytona USA or Ridge Racer.

[@StephenBanyar]

They'd given the Toyota ALTEZZA the Semi-Premium treatment, but not the Lexus IS200. I'd bet the lads in Ireland weren't too happy about that.

[@ΑπορίεςενόςΚάγκουρα]

The peugeot 106 picture with carbon hood and the ibiza on the back is mine ! Lol posted on gtplanet ages ago !

[@Erowens98]

I liked the way the used car dealership worked in GT5, it encouraged you to be creative with your car choice. They just needed to make the event requirement cars available at all times

[@srdjanstevanovic4245]

I know exactly what you mean at the end. I have a playthrough of close to a 1000 hours in GT5... Still waiting for that Formula Gran Turismo to appear in the damn used car dealership so I can try to finally get close to 100%game completion... its hopeless😂

[@odinsplaygrounds]

I’m actually playing Gran Turismo 5 these days! On PC (RPCS3), upscale to 4k. It’s the last GT game I played, and now revisiting it more than 10 years later. The whole standard vs premium models has seriously affected my purchase and car choices. Just feels wrong using the standard cars, too lacking in detail and no real cockpit view. Just feels more enjoyable to drive the premium models, enjoy their beauty.

[@LotsOfToubleUsuallySerious]

Several or probably all standard cars had interior models, being more apparent in cars like the Suzuki GSXR/4 and Toyota Sera with their doors open in GT PSP. But they were blacked out anyway. Probably to prevent the players from seeing the interiors with admittedly very blurry textures

[@theshinken]

I remember making it a challenge to make some standard cars look as good as possible in screenshots in GT6 as possible (with lighting, silouettes and focus etc). Some people where very confused by those.

[@Arexion5293]

Looking at the footage makes me miss city tracks from GT5 and 6, along with the Sierra track from 6. GT7's lack of city tracks still baffles me, and Sierra would've made for an awesome track to cruise around with the cars that have no real use. I genuinely prefer GT5's city tracks to what we had in 4, except for Monaco, Amalfi and Aria. Those two A's were especially cool, and Monaco is Monaco, but the rest of 4's city tracks were weirdly bad. To clarify, the Tokyo Expressway tracks in GT7 are more highway races than city races. City races are about the city streets, a race specifically taking place in the city, while highway races aren't exactly streets and whether they take place in a city or not isn't relevant to the track type.

[@NuclearHeadshot]

My heart brims with nostalgia from GT5 and 6 already, and having Ridge Racer Type 4 music just hits me in right in the good old days. Damn

[@felipefernandes9053]

GT 1 to 4 is basically a rounded 3D box with great textures... When it was necessary to make interiors and a full 3D body this took more time to made a model. This was the reason the number of cars dropped drastically in GT Sport.

[@ghostpop8265]

Lately this channel become one of my fav. on youtube ever There so much effort and dedication on this videos ong great video man!

[@purwantiallan5089]

Prize cars in GT5 are basically some are great, some are downright bad like winning a Caterham Seven after winning Formula GT on A SPEC but only GSX/R4 on B SPEC!

[@RandomGuy37]

I never had a problem with the standard model cars. In fact, I would've liked to see them get included in GT Sport and gradually get updated to premiums or super premiums. Polyphony could've gone with two teams which both have their own objectives in terms of car models: The first one makes new models never seen before while the other one remakes and improves the old ones. But now that the graphics improvements between console generations are getting absolutely marginal, I don't think Polyphony will have to scrap the models in GT Sport and GT7 anytime soon, so the car roster will keep growing. I reckon we would already be near the 2,000 car mark if they had decided to keep those standard cars

[@DoctorReto]

As someone who was out of racing games for years I'm not really in the best position to argue about the quality of the car models trough the years. But since I'm at the stage where I'm building a pc with some focus on the new Forza game and also waiting for a GT7 deal, even if some models are not up to the current gen standard I'm just happy if we can have a decent amount of older cars in any way. I'm one of those people who prefer to pick old cars and economy *s**t-boxes" and upgrade them as much as i can over ultra modern hypercars and such... In the end, there's alway gonna be people who are going to complain either about quality or the quantity of cars in those games. Great video btw! Got me to subscribe 👌

[@FurryWrecker911]

14:51 I like how this is being said while you can see the god-awful faceting on the back left fender as the light reflecting is super jaggy

[@SoI_Badguy]

I miss standard cars. Having a bajillion cars in the game was so fun. And the used car dealer in GT5 felt so fun because you would run into players in multiplayer with weird unicorn cars that are almost impossible to find. I remember going into FWD drag lobbies and dominating with my Dodge Neon SRT4, because it was the most powerful fwd car in the game by nearly 200hp. The hondas maxxed out at like 405, while the SRT4 had like 610. That doesnt really exist anymore. Having a Tank Car in GT6 didnt really mean anything, but having one in GT5? That was awesome! People didnt even know it existed, they were flabbergasted when they saw me pull it out.

[@pedromartinazzo5036]

True, I was always amused by the cars that appeared in the used car store. The first time the Tank Car appeared the only thing my 15 year old brain could think was what the fuck is this thing I want it

[@alphamaledriveshard]

GT5 without standard cars would have ended up like Forza Motorsport 5 in Xbox One. FM5 had a really low car count. And most of them were completely new models. And people hated it. It is still the lowest rated FM game in the series. Downgrading from FM4's 650+ cars to just 200 didn't do well with fans. So naturally in FM6 and FM7 they started bringing back the FM4 models. Of course people aren't happy with that either. The point is it is impossible to satisfy any of us because we're spoilt. However the new Forza Motorsport (8) is completely bullshit. Not only did they take 6 years to make, but also blatantly lied about it being built from the ground up. The car levelling up system is the last straw. GT7 has even bigger issues. What's the point of all these stellar looking cars if there's 0 events to use them in? They forgot about the game part of the game and made an expensive tech demo. Then resort to cheap tricks to lengthen the gameplay. I'll take the standard cars over that bullshit.

[@edwardking9359]

The car leveling up system is great, especially after the patch. Feels pretty good to have solid progression on each car! Also, the game systems and every car's handling model were built from the ground up, genuinely. There were a few visual models that were partially reused, but they were all given new shaders to keep up to date with the modern graphics, and unless you deliberately go looking for flaws you'll never notice them.

[@Zippy_Zolton]

for some reason the talk about damage models made me remember that classic video called "Not the real crashing simulator" with the blue Focus spinning around

[@KuroAno]

I don't remember where I saw this (I think it was a promotional video before the release of gt5 ?) but I remember the devs talking about how they started modeling the cars using splines (curves basically) instead of polygons so their models would be future-proof. You still have to rework the model into polygons to get it in game (because spline models have in theory infinite detail) but once you have modeled the car once, you don't have to remodel it from scratch.

[@exefune2960]

So basicaly they model a really hight detailed model that they can reuse for future games but with the constraint that take more time?

[@wolftmfg]

Side note: Mazda Furai such a cool car 🤩

[@4thManonCross]

Just like the Jaguar XFR was a new standard, many ps2 standard never made or rip GT5&6. Like the Nissan pulsar Gti, the 1st Gen Rx7, the 83 rwd Toyota Starlet & the 91 turbo fwd Starlet and the 4door civic Fiero top name a few of my faves. I don't mind the standard , cause it made pp based online shuffle races fun in GT5 & your right 6 does feel like a museum and ive driven every miata streets of willow and i can feel the subtle handling differences. GT6 handling model fleshes out subte details. Truly a great simulator,

[@cs8712]

"Look at how outdated these low poly models from 2004 are compared to the new ones" me, who grew up on genesis and ps1: "they're exactly the same picture"

[@caleb600_]

In reference to the point about gt6 premium cars updated for gt sport , I feel they're simply holding back the cars so they can drag updates. Gt 7 showed us polyphony really doesn't care what the fans want and it wouldn't surprise me if they're artificially prolonging the life of the game.

[@Bozar069]

Standard vs premiums was a big thing people focused on. Personally my biggest problem with Gt5 and 6 was the lack of race variety. Without the online seasonal events or online multiplayer there isn't much to do with a lot of the cars.

[@7ndrew]

The difference between GT and Forza reusing car models is that GT never really tried to hide it, at the very most they were vague about it and at the time, it was a one generation difference of quality Whereas Forza is now using 3 generation old car models that aren't just low quality, but really, really inaccurate and in some cases very deformed, yet they continue to lie that the game is "built from the ground up", hell, they even said on several occasions that all cars have been remodeled. Then again, FM(8)'s launch has been so disastreous, you can find a bug or a broken part in pretty much any car, be it reused or new. The Golf R's interior is missing the A pillar, the M5's widebody guts the car of its insides, the FC RX7's exhaust pops out when you equip a rollcage, some cars have broken customization options, certain cars have broken animations, widebodykits don't add spacers on many cars, it's just really an inexcusable mess.

[@zacariascisneros6399]

And it's a real shame that Forza released in this state. I genuiely expected a real competitor for GT7...but what I see is that both franchises are doomed

[@doughnuts87]

Now it makes me wonder if anyone could simply port a GT3/4 or older car into the new GT7, jus to see if the polygons an textures would even last lol

[@D_LGND]

15:40 The R8 LMS in the GT5 Spec 2.0 intro is also one of the few standard cars in the modern GT intros

[@IanRB26]

This channel is definitely premium car status.

[@IamJacksLPs]

Amazing video as always, the whole standard car kerfuffle was hilarious to go through. You had a constant tug of war between people who were bashing the game for the use of standard cars and the steadfast GT defenders that would explode any time an article, video or general announcement came through. It was oddly worst than we feared but better than we expected. I do wish you where in a position to do some video's diving in on the new Motorsport game because the level of leveled headed criticism is greatly missing. I am trying my best to be that person but its far beyond what I am capable of.

[@MABfan11]

Jaguar XF R could possibly be a car intended for the PSP game, since the XF R concept likely would've been shown in 2009, but was simply could due to lack of time to implement the model in the game

[@slof69]

I wouldn't enjoy gt5/6 if it wasn't for standard cars

[@randydubin7118]

I remember that interview where Kaz said that Standard cars in GT5 wouldn't have cockpit view, and how the article was scrubbed from the internet within a day or two and everyone on GTPlanet went absolutely frickin' *MAD.* Needless to say, it was a *HUGE* deal back in the day.

[@joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo1588]

Great video as always! I personally massively preferred having the greater variety of cars to the higher standard for all - gt7 has really suffered with a lack of cars. It feels like they put so much effort into creating the cars now theyve forgotten to put other content into the actual game... like having a proper career mode.

[@ApocalypseMoose]

7:42 Honestly, I'd take a video of just various car sounds in GT without background music. Its oddly relaxing.

[@josbon9228]

I was so happy they add those standard cars and I didn’t think those standard models would take time out of poly to make more premiums.

[@Davids_cars]

I played through GT4 fully the other month and found myself being pleasantly surprised not only by the sheer amount of cars (and new by the period’s time!) but the variants. I was only 7 when it came out but I’m lucky enough to have owned many cars before playing it again now and I love being able to drive cars I or my friends have owned, a niche J2 LTD mx5 for example. I hope they find some happy middle ground between quality and quantity. The GT7 quantity side feels even lower due to the massive prices on legendary cars as I’ll never get to drive all of them

[@patrickflanagan862]

The non-GT4 standard cars, especially that Jaguar, are all so interesting. On the subject of anachronisms, I've been wondering a lot lately about what newer cars from GT7 would look like as standard cars in GT4. Stuff like the Urus, Raptor, Genesis G70, C7/C8 Corvette, all VGTs, et cetera.

[@TheKrzysiek]

They should add Gran Turismo 1/2 models as "Nostalgic Models"

[@EduardoHernandez-jl5qt]

I want my Renault Espace F1 in GT7

[@podio_km4g532]

29:10 you actually can, most assetto corsa mods are GTS/GT7 ports so if you were to ask around in the AC community (mainly touge stuff) you might get your answer

[@Daveybird]

Kinda reminds me of my own experience as a Sim Racing modder, some car models I made, others were acquired from past modders throughout 20 years, and sometimes jumping to my latest mod for one car division to another is like going back in a time machine, lol.

[@willypro4949]

You know what would be a great vid roffelWaffe? The whole timeline of the development of GT 5. It doesn’t make sense Polyphony claiming they ran out of time for GT 5 since if all sources are correct they began working in the game as early as 2004 and they were one of the first developers to get PS3 dev kits. Moreover it doesn’t make sense for Polyphony to spend so much time on the HD and Prologue games to just throw away all of it just to launch an undercooked GT 5

[@insomniacbritgaming1632]

I miss most of the cars from FM4... mostly the starter cars and many of the tracks. I'd be happy with older cars as an option...

[@GraveUypo]

ikr. they did away with most of my favorites, which were all economy boxes, and they never made it back. these games kinda stopped being for everyone and became for the geeky nerds that play online using gloves and a helmet at home and shit

[@NitroGT78]

​@GraveUypo Other way around, bud. It used to be for more serious guys, and now it's becoming more accessible, hence the fast starter car.

[@Marzsala]

rest in peace the smart car, amc pacer, prius, toyota aygo, chevrolet spark, mazda 2, honda fit, and countless others FOREVER!

[@ImadHadjersi]

Those were pretty accurately made (mostly then brand-new in the series for FM3/FM4). The problem is with the carried-over models from FM1

[@YaBoiMemo313]

Note that its blatantly obvious that GT Sport's cars that came to GT7 are literally GT Sport models, with gt7's original model quality only being slightly higher

[@mikecustoms]

some of the open top standard cars having a basic interior helped

[@Cobra_427]

4:53 An inertia drift at 370km/h, that's wild

[@turismofoegaming8806]

A lot of the cars from the PSP game were added into GT5 obviously to boost the car roster but also because of the feature that allowed you to trade cars back-and-forth between the PSP, Gran Turismo, and Gran Turismo5 This was a feature that wasn’t all that great but it was pretty cool for the very few cars that you could not get in Gran Turismo five, that you had to have the PSP game to be able to transfer them over to GT5 !

[@DiegoRuiz1991]

Gran Turismo 5/6 quality is more than enough for me - I'd prefer to have 700 UNIQUE cars (engine configurations and different racing teams DO NOT count) at that quality rather than 500 at GT7 quality

[@kingjimsixsix5]

Great video, while at the time it was odd to have the split between premium and standard cars, it was far better to have them to use than not have them at all. As it has been stated it's meant to take 9 months now to build a car model from the ground up, what if gt allowed players to mod cars and upload them to a searchable database like the car liverys in gt sport.

[@angelinblack7685]

finally someone explaned whats wrong with s15

[@hlavco]

I was still using a CRT when Gran Turismo 5 came out, so I couldn't tell the difference between the Standard and Premium models anyway.

[@vinsthymia]

23:30 i used to do that a lot, that's why I spent over 1000 hours into the game, just trying a new car every day

[@Tornado2409]

That's the only reason why I know what the FTO is lmao.

[@CB-L]

I...kinda expected the topic "Standard Cars" being something like road-legal cars. This was unexpected, but very interesting to watch anyways.

[@H3llC4tEvo]

that system really didnt work until GT7 where they added car tags like road car race car or 24 hours

[@RandomCarGuy17]

First, I will say thanks for crediting my video and linking it even. I have enjoyed your analysis videos like this or your perspective on how PD botched GT7. With that said, I honestly think an alternate GT5 where it was just the premium cars would be interesting and I personally would think the game wouldn't be that much worse off. While I had a lot of fun with the PS2 models being added to the game and I even recall defending them back in 2010; I personally think now that they were a mistake. Yes, GT5 wouldn't have 1,000 cars to brag about and people would be missing those iconic models, but Polyphony Digital could've then better spent their time on focusing on premium cars to make a GT career around them. I don't know how much time the modelling team had to spend on making the old models work on the PS3 games, but I think it could've even been enough time to probably even add a few more premium cars. The focus on just these premium cars could've still made a fun career mode around them since they were able to do that with Gran Turismo 3. Better yet, around the time GT6 came out; the time spent on the improved standards (or what people call semi-premiums) could've been spent into making those cars full-on premium cars instead. ------------------- Though bringing up GT Sport does bring up another issue I have with PD; they don't seem to know when to stop in the pursuit of detail. They really should've stopped with the poly-increase after the PS3 premiums and just work on refining them for GT Sport instead and later GT7. There's a point when focusing on visuals too much hurts the game more than helps it and it seems they gotten to that point in GT Sport and especially 7.

[@zacariascisneros6399]

It's a double edge sword. One one hand, nobody would complain about the cars' quality , because they're almost perfect. However, that compromises the quantity of content

[@jardim23]

The GT4 carryovers cleaned up rather nicely in GT5/6 where it was pleasing to just look at from the outside with that nice set of wheels, etc. I wish they were a thing in GT7 with maybe the abilty to change a few things such as the exhaust tip

[@SquiidGravy]

Hey great vid as per usual man!

[@Gazlene420]

No mistake at all... Id much rather drive my real life car around world circuits in low poly without an interior, than not be able to drive it around at all... Hell, id totally take a low poly version of my car in GT7 given the chance.... its better than nothing. Some of thee best battles ive had ripping around the Green Hell, we were racing nothing but legacy cars. Obviously, Doubt they will add them... but one can dream Again, its better than nothing

[@BKFS-ls9by]

At this point, I would fucking take them if it gave us more content in GT7.

[@H3llC4tEvo]

i want the 05 mustang and challenger srt back

[@Tornado2409]

​​@@H3llC4tEvofr. WHY DID THEY REMOVE THEM!? I was hoping for a Challenger Hellcat.

[@H3llC4tEvo]

@@Tornado2409 there was a 2008 Challenger srt8 in gt5 and gt6 but it hasnt come back... the '05 mustang is also gone

[@StuffedUpSlime]

PLANETARY GO IS THE INTRO SONG FOR GT5!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[@zacariascisneros6399]

yes

[@shortcat]

Never had a problem with the standard cars. When choosing a car to drive premiumness is a very small factor for me.

[@LotsOfToubleUsuallySerious]

Funny thing: this video is available in 1080p PREMIUM

[@drivingduck2234]

even in gt6 i love the inclusino of the standard cars, it was the only game out of the 4 i have (4,5,6 a nd sport) where i was able to try the auto union v16 type c for example... the liberty that the gt6 gave me and everybody was perfect in that regards!

[@zacariascisneros6399]

That car handled like a fucking boat. Fairly fast on straights, painfully slow on corners

[@MaseTheAce]

While I personally don’t mind the looks of the car models in Forza Motorsport, I am disappointed in Turn 10 for their lack of transparency. I honestly couldn’t care less whether the models are new or reused. As long as they look good and have some kind of noticeable enhancement from their previous gen counterparts, then that’s good enough for me, but it does annoy me when a company puts so much emphasis on a tagline like “built from the ground up” only for them to showcase something that suggests otherwise. I’m not trying to hate on the game. In fact, I’m having lots of fun with it so far, and I even like the car progression system since it gives you something to work toward and allows you to save money towards buying new cars. However, companies need to stop this crap if they want to build and maintain trust from consumers. Communication is key, and the sooner businesses realize that, the better off they’ll be.

[@edwardking9359]

It is built from the ground up, just with a few older pieces. Every game reuses assets in places, no game is fully made from scratch, because that would be pointless.

[@CharizardMaster69]

so quick personal note about GT5 standard cars, in the classic american race at Monza, I used a bright Orange Plymouth Superbird (The one with the giant wing) and somehow during one race I rolled the car and when I went to the exterior review I was surprised to see that the wing was now bent.

[@MrSilnev]

My only issue with standard cars back then was more that some cars were only relegated to standard status and were not chosen to be premiums compared to other cars. The big one back then was the mk4 Supra. But a couple of muscle cars + there being not a single australian premium (there still isn't one ffs), was also annoying. Especially when they had stuff like the original Fiat 500 be premium and that was a complete novelty car.

[@RobinMarquez-hr1hr]

They sacrificed quantity for quality. Though like you said, there might be a few PS3 premium cars that were secretly ported to gt7?

[@gabrielsobrosa]

GT was honest about his models and the community hated. Forza lies about that until this day (build from the ground up). Today GT car quality was actually build from the ground up indeed.

[@H3llC4tEvo]

we dont know for sure, many cars still look like they were from PS3 like the swift doesnt look out of place tho, if they really used the PS3 models they did a really good job updating them

[@andreasmoller9798]

No all cars look at least ps4 quality even the swift looks quite good

[@zacariascisneros6399]

@@H3llC4tEvo tbh, PS3 Premium cars were already ahead of their time.