Star Citizen React: Cargo Hauling Theory / Economy Rant

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Vergil | Shadow Moses

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 39

@stonerhino83 9 ай бұрын

I look forward to the day no one can leave the space station because not enough fuel has been delivered.

@godmodeiddqd 9 ай бұрын

I agree that UEC needs to matter in SC. Repair, upkeep, refuel, rearm should be costs to be considered. I stole one of the Idris-M's back in the day, and I tried to refuel it. Mobi said it would be 50M aUEC to refill the hydrogen fuel tank. How many Orgs would tool around in their Idris or other capital ship if it cost that much to operate? These assets would be deployed sparingly, IMO. Repair needs to work consistently first. Quanta may be able to be taken advantage of in the future, as well as provide stability to the in-game economy. Example: Pirates hit a low volume trade route to artificially inflate commodity prices. Then a blue/"yellow" player associated with the pirate group comes in with trade and snags all those juicy profits. That is if things hopefully get physicalized. On a larger stage, that won't be able to happen because prices will hopefully rise and fall to incentivize players to trade more than the most profitable commodity. I do like the idea of player spawned hauling quests. I'd totally issue an order for 4 disto repeaters from NB, to be dropped off at Orison. I'd issue the order, then log off. Hopefully next time I log on, my order would be waiting for me at Orison. A player would take the quest, pick up the cargo, drop it off, get paid, and the game would drop the items in my inventory. Cargo players get a job, I get to be lazy. Win, win.

@Ver9jl 9 ай бұрын

Such a good take, agree on all of this. Man it's fun to even think about the possibilities of logistics in the future

@godmodeiddqd 9 ай бұрын

@@Ver9jl Word. Same with smuggling. An IRL buddy has a Kraken Privateer. As a bunch of mercs, we're going to resupply orgs who may not be able to get those supplies otherwise. Even in operation with refuel and resupply, if need be. Hopefully it pans out as a way to make money and build org relations.

@cqc2238 9 ай бұрын

This comes down to the writing and narrative, like the Thargoids from ED. Xeon threat war from other systems, factions etc. These are post launch add ones. We’re still in Alpha.

@citizenzero5437 9 ай бұрын

Space Dad make number go up=fun for spacedad. Pvpr stop spacedad make number go up= fun for pvpr. Unfortunately the issue is peoples idea of fun. Triccky issue to balance

@Ver9jl 9 ай бұрын

Yeah makes alot of sense

@SomeOne-mw8zl 9 ай бұрын

im out of the economics and can say that this topic is sooo much underrated as well as the fincial part in our world and with this also in SC.

@lennoxdantes 9 ай бұрын

NPC economies are a complete joke. This is the biggest shame about Star Citizen

@minntal8536 9 ай бұрын

I agree with you on all points! No player economy affect = No game! Where I think quanta could merge with players is that when it decides that the market needs more of product X then vice it generating npc actions it instead generates a mining contract for players to pickup. If it isn’t taken in x amount of time then it is assigned to an NPC. And once taken by the player they have a time limit on fulfilling it. Same for trade. Product x in excess at location x but in need at location y then quanta generates hauling contract for player, again x amount of time it’s not taken then assigned to NPC. Product x desired at location x and no real excess anywhere else then a trade contract is created.

@Super-id7bq 9 ай бұрын

From what I remember Tony Z came from Ultima Online so the whole X:1 ratio of NPCs to players was to solve some of the huge balance issues they had with the economy eating itself through player actions back in the day. Not just the economy but resources and everything else. I think it'll be nessasary to be honest. Allow players to impact the economy but not break it.

@Ver9jl 9 ай бұрын

Maybe. But I don't know, it takes something acting out of the ordinary to make headlines and become interesting. Embrace the chaos of inbalances and let things get wild to the point we're all intrigued with what shapes it takes but not past that point? If the economy is played "safe" through "safety measures" like balancing then it's stagnant and boring... Predictable even

@justinhausaman2867 9 ай бұрын

I don't think Quanta were meant to be invisible, my understanding is that they would be virtual NPCs until they are in range of a player and then they would be rendered as an NPC that you could pirate or destroy like any other NPC.

@Ver9jl 9 ай бұрын

I don't think it's 1 for 1 like that but I might be wrong - it just feels like there's alot of holes that make it increasingly "fake", also the issue of sharding. The less "control" we have over the economy the worse it is in my eyes

@watermelon58 9 ай бұрын

I believe you are right to some extent like the service beacons i believe are generated through pirates intersecting traders virtually. It still felt super fake for me.

@Coldsealion 9 ай бұрын

In the long run I think they need to increase the profit margins for trading, but reduce the overall profits. So the overall value of commodities per unit would decrease significantly, but traders wouldn't be liable to lose 5 trips worth of profit if one shipment gets lost. At the current rate the money flows into the economy, orgs have essentially unlimited money in weeks after a wipe. That's unsustainable for a non-wipe environment, and I doubt there'll be enough money sinks to offset that on their own.

@Ver9jl 9 ай бұрын

I think being liable is what creates the thrill of it. I still remember the high from some of the gambles. Maybe it could only be this liable on really lucrative routes? Not sure. Either way definitely feels like there is a huge missed opportunity

@Coldsealion 9 ай бұрын

@@Ver9jl I agree there should be risk, just not enough to drive all traders away from certain routes. Ideally, there's a natural flow, where reward creates popularity, which leads to risk, which leads to increased security, which between the security and popularity cuts into the rewards. So the balance between risk and reward would be something traders need to consider. Right now, piracy is so rare that traders don't consider risk at all, but that will hopefully change in the future for the more lucrative routes.

@MacroAggressor 9 ай бұрын

I think I understand your pessimism around Quanta a bit better now. It seems like you might be misunderstanding one critical aspect... the stated intention (as I understand it) is for the individual NPC actors to be simulated _unless_ they enter a space where they would be observed by a player. It should be entirely possible for an org to establish a blockade and manipulate the market the way you described.

@BuzzCutPsycho 9 ай бұрын

There is nothing "fun" about quanta. As you said everything happens behind invisible magic closed doors. Totally abstract. What do I care about a supposed trade lane for if I cannot actually influence in in one way or another? It means nothing. it is fake. Since the trade lane is fake and doesn't exist there is no chance for emergent gameplay where plays with vested interests fight over the lane and it's trade.

@minntal8536 9 ай бұрын

I also did not get the invisible aspect of what you are saying about quanta. My understanding is that quanta will be the algorithm that dictates what NPCs are doing in the game. As in we would see the NPC miners and haulers.

@heavyweapons5749 9 ай бұрын

I am glad you are one of the few youtubers talking about this part of star citizen, it is usually overshadowed or completely ignored. Really wish cig would get us some better profit margins or hauling missions where I don't have to dump 1 mil into some random cargo. Also I wanted to mention that this is still a game what else would they do besides spawn missions in. I do not believe there has to be a rhyme or reason for every single action in game because that's why this game has taken 14 years.

@gabor5079 9 ай бұрын

Quanta is not gona be fun but neither be unfun. Player driven shit show economy is what I dread. Unless they can solve the inflation problem which for some reason no one can. I guess it is way easier for the devs to maintain a healthy economy. Just my 2 cents

@Ver9jl 9 ай бұрын

I think it can be "faked" to a point to stop it getting out of control as you mentioned. But I like the idea of the players having a significant impact on the results of the economy

@Telorath 9 ай бұрын

So, eve online is good place to look to see an economy where inflation doesn't really matter. An important factor in Eve Online is that MOST goods can only exist if manufactured by players, and those items can only be manufactured through raw resources. Inflation is kept in check by the fact that every profession gains the majority of its profit by selling goods/services to someone else who needs them. This means that when inflation occurs, you as someone who reaps 100% of the value of your labor are always still earning equivalent money. Missions for example generate a unique currency that can be used at a special store unique to the faction you ran missions for to procure blueprints and special ingredients that other players need and will pay a real market price for which goes up with inflation. The mission's fixed monetary payout is unimportant, because you are always generating real value in the form of something the dynamic economy wants. Likewise, most loot can be broken down into raw materials, meaning that even the most useless item in the game has a rock bottom market price of "Someone will buy it from you to recycle it with their better recycling skills and make a profit buying your garbage" or you can recycle it yourself to just have raw materials to sell. EVE online actually used to have a professional economics major on staff for most of the game's life. They ditched that semi-recently, but most of the economic systems were built in partnership with a real economist.

@carllong8954 9 ай бұрын

If it's a sandbox, the players have to be the major influence. That's how eve works. I don't know if it needs to be that extreme but right now it will be a theme park game as it currently stands.

@schlagzahne6741 9 ай бұрын

Aren't those magic doors also supposed to then pop a quanta physically into the verse when a player is in their vicinity? Couldn't that mean you still could male a blockade that forces price hikes, maybe at the very least slightly soft capped at a certain " overly high" price? Also the salvage pop in, i agree should go away. Hopefully that is the intent and works this way for now as a way to test salvage?

@viralsun 9 ай бұрын

The only way quanta works is if the NPC cargo movement is physicalised with NPC ships. Also this video highlights another major issue I have with the community which is an expectation for every gameplay loop to have to exist in the missions manager. The amount of times I see comments like "piracy isn't in the game because there aren't any missions" is fucking ridiculous. Part of a working universe is that it is a sandbox, people should be able to create their own loops around the stuff handed to you by CIG. 100% agree about salvage being generated out of nowhere. The game should be detecting wrecks from ert's etc and using them to generate missions

@watermelon58 9 ай бұрын

Strongly agree with you take on quanta I had the same exact arguement.

@lennoxdantes 9 ай бұрын

Quanta is nothing new. Other games have this. Tony can put up all the graphs and give names all he wants, but jts themepark.gameplay. NPC interaction is always invasive and immersion breaking. NPCs provide nothing but static. There is no reason for anyone to trade anything other than making money for themselves. Corps wont need miners or haulers to do anything at all. Low level items and minerals are useless. Its a huge mistake not going with a player economy.

@Ver9jl 9 ай бұрын

I couldn't agree more, great take man. Love it

@lennoxdantes 9 ай бұрын

@Ver9jl great vids. Glad to have a solid content creator out there

@Telorath 9 ай бұрын

See, this is a big way in which Star Citizen differs from Eve Online which has the proper economy most people want to see. Ships in star citizen are designed to feel like a player's home, or automobile in real life, something that has intrinsic value because it makes you proud or excited to fly it- the 890 jump being a good example of a ship that only has intrinsic value to people because it is not useful in any meaningful way. In EVE ships for higher end players are easy come, easy go. Massive battleships that dwarf Star Citizen's biggest flyable ships are only a few hours grind away, so the goal is just to fly safe enough that you're not getting blown up every few hours. Value-generating activities like mining and salvaging are balanced by the fact that these ships(Which in EVE can be scanned down by enemies) have a real cost to lose and a vulnerability window where they sit around collecting things when anyone can scan them down and come find them. On the flip side, value skimming activities such as trade can sometimes be done without even undocking if you're savvy enough, but if you DO decide to undock it's a high risk high reward but highly mobile activity where you're spending twenty minutes of hyper-attention to skim the kind of value that value-generating activities require hours to generate.

@Hairyloft 9 ай бұрын

Another great discussion, no way that economy, quanta sounds fun but its such a fine line on fun, as if it is part of the grind like part of most MMOs thats fine, but if it is too inconsistent could be frustrating as F.

@Gnarfendorf 9 ай бұрын

A lot of your concerns hinge on the balance of the game it seems, which... is not good in its current state. Nobody in their right mind would disagree there imho. Its up to CIG to fix that, and we are at their mercy there. On the topic of magically spawning salvage i have to ask tho, what makes it any different from pve bounty missions? They also spawn out of thin air currently, the only difference is the gameplay loop and the risk involved, which is again part of the balance process. Relying solely on wrecks created by other players would make it a gameplay loop thats too random to be a reliable income, forcing ( and thats my main concern here ) people to seek out dangerous locations for potentially meager rewards, as well as making a whole profession rely on others to do something first. I cant think of any other gameplay loop that does that, other than piracy and pvp bounties ( one due to a lack of neutral npc ships with cargo on board, one by design ).