Star Citizen's Economy is Changing in 3.23 | But Without The Quantum Simulation

[@CitizenScott]

Rumor has it Tony Z has integrated his own consciousness into the Quantum simulation and his corporeal form has been subsumed by AWS.

[@starbuck5728]

Joe Rogan: It's entirely possible 🤔

[@MWTGoldenGun]

I like it. I haven't seen a better explanation for the lack of his corporeal presence.

[@realmarsastro]

There was a post on the RSI forums about this by Tony Z. He basically said Quantum is more or less done, but there's nothing to publish because it hinges on server meshing and replication layer stuff being done. So Quantum is essentially just waiting for server tech to progress.

[@SpaceTomato]

This is since the post in October? Do you have a link??

[@CobusGreyling]

Having followed SC for 11 years I can tell you that when the SM Jesus Tech comes out they'll quickly discover another excuse for 'dependents' like Quantum, and there'll be clues everywhere that they're only really starting on it. Like when they said server meshing should be out around 2021 and then last year we saw a bunch of devs get together talking about server meshing for the first time, a 'Part One' of a series we never got a part two to... Star Citizen may not be a scam, but CIG's piss poor communication gives the refundians all the ammo they need to call it one.

[@CynicalMournings]

​@@CobusGreylingPfffffffft

[@fffx2]

​@@SpaceTomatoThe post is from like 3 years ago

[@ratedxvn]

@@SpaceTomato "trust me bro." 😎

[@dontknowler]

Came to the conclusion SC is not a space sim - it is a game dev sim. This explains everything 😂

[@RainOfFodderco]

That's honestly what the project was in large part when it started. Then they started hiding what they were doing.

[@BradAhrens]

Tony, if you see this comment, blink twice.

[@ufeelinselfrighteous8470]

[ERROR] FUNCTION bLink(NULL)

[@4hire565]

@@ufeelinselfrighteous8470oh hell!!

[@rolinthor]

They haven’t even started working on a crafting tree as far as I can tell. The price increases are mostly to prod people to pledge for a larger ship, thus skipping the occasional post-wipe grinds (and new patch bugs that delete in-game bought ships from time to time).

[@R1PPA-C]

I honestly keep forgetting about dynamic economy... And because I keep forgetting about the most important missing feature...I always hold a little discomfort in thinking that SC no matter how many fixes, ships, mechanics and systems will only ever amount to being a huge loopy MMO with beautiful clouds and the same copy paste hangars no matter how many GM we've traversed. Dynamic economy is and will be the most important driving force behind the whole SC environment for almost every backer and player. It will probably even change how dogfighters go about their day in SC depending on economic shifts.

[@rixxy9204]

Tony Z _is_ the server.

[@ChrisJ9326]

Rumor has it that we will play SC after we reincarnate.

[@malismo]

Quantum economy's biggest promise is a dynamically adjusting AI driven economy which balances out the extreme player manipulation of it and subsequent tanking of it. Yes, players wil be influencing the economy as well, but not to the extend as in full player driven economies. Also it will feed into the mission system generating missions to balance the economy. At least that is how I have always understood the CIG talks on the topic.

[@GuttedWrenStudios]

Tony Z was actually the friends we made along the way.

[@Jornelaz]

Thank you for this video reminder of this HUGE feature that we know so little about its future. We always need the reality check that CIG is still the same old CIG haha

[@SpaceTomato]

Meh, definitely not the same COG. The old COG would have continued talking this feature up even if it wasn't doing anything. I appreciate that we haven't been overloaded with more info about it, but I think we're do a good update now.

[@Jornelaz]

@@SpaceTomato agreed, I want to hear more about this. It's unfortunate we have been kept in the dark about this for so long

[@Cornerboy73]

After all this time, my expectation is that Tony has this more or less ready to roll out once the technical/server work is in place and functioning properly. If it's all still equations on a chalk/whiteboard, we're in trouble.

[@rolinthor]

Narrator: “They were, in fact, in trouble.”

[@makimera]

At this point i wonder if Tony is even still with CIG, we havent heard or seen him for a long time.

[@Trillineatus]

I wonder exactly the same thing.

[@gian.4388]

rumors say he's been sidelined cause his project was taking too much time, was getting outdated and it was difficult to implement, so they placed another team with a better design in charge of the dynamic economy

[@Trillineatus]

@@gian.4388 no no no no Never take a man's child

[@Agent-yc2ii]

He gone

[@heru_ur6017]

Whenever somebody leaves they stop mentioning them. When was the last time you heard his name come out of a CIG devs mouth ?

[@RakasansLegacy]

Where in the world is Wal...Tony.

[@vulcan4d]

No one talks about it because no one can comprehend what Tony Z was working on. We may need to wait until AI and quantum computing decipher it.

[@snowgentleman1937]

I do not play many missions. The main reason is that the time and reward are not appealing enough. Furthermore, the missions are sometimes bugged and cannot be completed. That’s a waste of time. That is why I mostly do cargo runs. They’re not exciting because you do nothing but watch KZbin during quantum jumps until you reach your destination. However, it also pays better and is less frustrating.

[@ohnegative9526]

I agree with you they don't pay enough for the risk involved. Though you play them for fun not the payment. You should give them a try most are interesting, some are wastes or bugged but less and less so. Cargos gotta get boring and just stacking cash seems pointless

[@heru_ur6017]

Is he even still at CIG ? There has been a lot of talk that he left along with a lot of the others.

[@DamonCzanik]

Tony is a genius. But what Tony struggles with is releasing something live. I don't think we have yet to see a single one of his grand visions get fully realized. I believe his stuff has been put on the back burner (again) until Star Citizen's 1.0's release and base building. His stuff needs distribution centers, factories, and base building. I also think they don't want to release it until dynamic server meshing.

[@Atljeepboy]

Tony Z = Wizard of Oz, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[@CaptainSnackbeard]

CIG stops talking about people after they leave. I haven't heard any of them say this man's name in 2 years. I don't think he works there no more.

[@tieshianna8833]

LinkedIn says he does

[@CaptainSnackbeard]

@@tieshianna8833 he owns part of the company whether he works there or not, It wouldn't look good to advertize his departure. I'm not saying he left, just that he stopped being mentioned in the way that other former employees have been in the past. Now we have some different person talking about Quanta. Just a guess. 🤷‍♂️

[@daganael]

an I thought you might had some news about TonyZ. For all we know he might not even still be on the project...

[@SpaceTomato]

No news! Just what's been shared publicly!

[@CleanYEAH]

Like a lot of early ideas in star citizen the quantum economy stuff was a lot of big talk and blue sky ideas. I have a feeling what we end up seeing in game one day with the economy will be much more basic than what was originally sold way back when

[@rhetor4mentor13]

Man Rich Tyer shot hard with his "oh one more thing, I HATE the name Quantum and want to change it". Couldn't be a clearer sign that TZ was put on the sidelines.

[@SpaceTomato]

Have not seen that yet!

[@rhetor4mentor13]

@@SpaceTomatoit was during last week's SCL

[@icedanilzation]

Quantum refers to the system itself (simulation). Quanta refers to the individual focal points happening within the simulation. Nice summary, I get scared when I don't hear from TZ for a while, here's hoping he drops the mic this citcon.

[@qlu7273]

Keep making movies like this and I'll keep watching, this was good.

[@Joehockey1990]

I always wondered if it was even possible to have in game without Dynamic Server Meshing. How many economic simulations would have to run in the current state of server meshing? Plus part of me wonders if CIG is only just now deciding what the economy should be. If they're so unsure of what they want out of the PU in terms of ship prices, career loops that are unfinished or not even started, that things are changing practically every update, how could they even use the dynamic economy. Even if it was ready, how can it work within limitation if there are no decided limitations? I feel like we learned about the Quantum Simulations 5 years too early. Too little was finished in the game. Too little was known of how the "finished' product could look.

[@DayLateGamerWill]

Last I knew it was called "Quanta" not quantum

[@jaceshad]

That Tony picture drew me in :D

[@timeflex]

The replication and the load balancing combined represent such a core level of the service that it is virtually impossible to design anything big (and reliable) in terms of the server logic before its full operational readiness.

[@shippingerror]

hes in my hanger having a joint waiting for server meshing

[@cb_the_kirb]

It’s been mentioned a few times recently, so clearly CIG haven’t forgotten about it but they also aren’t giving much information other than “VERY SOON:tm:” and that it might be renamed to something less confusing. … so maaaaybe?

[@flaiqe1316]

As a returning player who is still very rusty, I am quite disappointed that the prices of ships are changing but the missions aren’t paying more. It’s going to make most ships inaccessible for new players. Missions just don’t pay enough for ships in the first place, the only reason people can buy ships this patch is because of salvage

[@rolinthor]

Better pledge for a better ship. Pay to skip grind! They’re taking a page out of the Elite Dangerous book.

[@MrDometheo79]

One day....one day, in the credits, there will be a VERY long list of ALL the staff, backers and VIP players that contributed to the SIM, but, passed away......... The list will be massive...

[@philorkill]

We live in a simulation where Tony Z simulates he's working on the Quanta simulation.

[@Blackkatana]

Bault is the CTO at CIG. A little more than just a person on the economy team.

[@Manshima]

You're the best source of everything SC. I'm a newer player and get a lot out of your videos on both channels - Thank you very much

[@fluffyfussy]

I suspect they are trying to build the economic system according to their own rules. Many people have tried this in the history of the economy, but all have failed. Let the market decide. The players are the market. Give them total control.

[@XxXDOMINIONXxX]

cough eve online cough.

[@fluffyfussy]

@@XxXDOMINIONXxX exactly

[@Kurisu2019]

From the early days (2014-2015) when they built a tabletop game to show how to make the economy dynamic till now, you have a very smart and dedicated guy who has worked entirely on this: 10 years of working on this single aspect. What was shown in 2019 was amazing. The silence is what bothers me: too often, things are dropped after a long period of silence. Quantum was just too much of a leap forward in MMO's to be shelved. I hope it is far along, although my gut tells me things arent so good.

[@zantrag]

Either Tony Z. has Quantum all ready to go, when Server meshing drops, or Tony Z. will disappear, just prior, and the entire process will have to be "re-created" as Tony took the "knowledge" with him; and the next new "tech" will be the hold-up.

[@scottward8594]

We are the economy, the question should be "When do we get PvP trading network?"

[@Majelvey]

Thanks for your hard work putting this video together. Just finding you on KZbin. Will be following closely in the future.

[@Jangmo_SC]

CR has known Tony for a long time, and has given him the reigns to create his own masterpiece. This could be great! It could also go nowhere after years of CR letting him work on it with the office door closed.

[@NyaandereGaming]

Awesome video, your production quality and thoroughness are impressive

[@SpaceTomato]

Thank you!

[@jingels27]

Not sure if you caught it in the SCL, but they did mention "Quantum Simulation" but only called it "Quantum." Richie did say that he hated the name and wants it changed. I'll see if I can find the timestamp. ( it was around 14:20 of the SCL)

[@bshagopian]

I vote for renaming it to Qualia. qua·li·a nounPHILOSOPHY the internal and subjective component of sense perceptions, arising from stimulation of the senses by phenomena.

[@adnaneelbadri6613]

Another banger of a video! Didn't even know that quantum simulation was a thing and now I'm exited because it will make the universe feel so alive.

[@NoNo-f4h]

Why is CIG balancing static ship values for a dynamic economy where everything is supposed to be constructed and priced based upon gathered resources and their availability?

[@Dracounguis]

I vote for calling it Quanta, 'quantum' already has a meaning and pop culture has overused it already.

[@TennysonEStead]

This is a super concise and super detailed breakdown. Really nice work, gang!

[@alexpetrov8871]

LMAO what "economy overhaul" are you talking about - there is ONE system in the game. Gosh, I just started playing ED year ago, and I had to visit like 50 star systems while hauling goods, because of economy fluctuations. WTF SC "economy overhaul" can show in this area - jumping from Clio to Pyro I ?

[@LuiseSky]

Dude, right now entire human economy is located within one Earth, and that’s okay. And thats huge. With good game design it could be good enough within Pyro-Stanton. There is nothing interesting when all the emphasis in the cargo hauling profession is on the flight from point A to point B

[@Z3RO4351]

Great update on the current state of the economy and what the near future may hold. Within that is what truly is the elephant in the room. Where is Tony Z? He is a brilliant mind that not only laid the blueprint for what would be a compelling game economy, but also showed us the beginnings of this endeavor. The hope is that the pause in the economy due to the need of core tech such as server meshing is truly warranted and that Tony Z is still there working in the background on other aspect of SC and/or iterating the simulation.

[@SpaceTomato]

I hope we know sooner than later, and I hope 4.0 can include a major update with Quantum.

[@Z3RO4351]

@@SpaceTomato I hope so too. Despite us not being IN the economy, as oversimplified as this may sound, its clear all of it is there and it just needs to be slotted into the game. Hopefully yes, 4.0 would bring at least a base layer of what ahs been done so far, if not all of it.

[@BalokLives]

Quantum is the economy simulation as a whole. Quanta are the individual bits of AI that move around to update the simulation. At least, that's the way it was originally described.

[@ChrisRollason]

Quantum was mention in SCL on Friday briefly. Mostly moaning about the name of it!

[@Pharesm]

Good ole Tony! Always time for the Gym and the Solarium. But the one job he has, it just doesn't come together! When you're buddies with Chris, work isn't a priority . . . I get it

[@hallker]

Haven't watched the video yet. But what scares me is that it appears like data running has to be implemented first which on its own seems like a enormous task. At least from what CIG told us about it... as it probably will significantly change how economy works.

[@Minimum.maximum.effort]

If I'm remembering correctly cig said there were some things that were going to be surprises so I can only hope this is one

[@burningphoneix]

It's called Quanta btw

[@richardjaimepr]

I just think they where in love with saying the word Quanta and Quantum. They got bored and moved on.

[@heru_ur6017]

Diagetic is the new buzz word.

[@merclord]

I think CR locked Tony in the basement of the UK office and said "I'm not letting you out until we're ready to release Quantum because you talk too much"

[@uighkgui]

That's what i am waiting for the whole time, I haven't played star citizen since 2.4 or something, because without a functioning economy a game like that is not fun

[@Eagle6Airsoft]

As others have said cig have a tendency to ignore things they are no longer working on / not with the company any more. It’s not happening.

[@SpaceDad42]

Like most original devs, TZ left the company.

[@SpaceMike3]

How do you know?

[@zeektm1762]

Source?

[@SpaceMike3]

@@zeektm1762 I checked LinkedIn. He's still there

[@schmittmeister5460]

@@SpaceMike3 it was stated? he moved due to family reasons back to the UK.

[@SpaceMike3]

@@schmittmeister5460 are we talking about the same guy? TZ is from Austin Texas. CR and family moved to the UK

[@army12bc4]

Quanta died and Tony Z is never around to say antyhing. There is a team now dedicated to it

[@Crazy-Chicken-Media]

I'm hoping They have an economist on staff, Because there's a huge difference between a states economy and a country's economy. there are many economies within the macroeconomic system, from the raw materials all the way to the consumer, And that doesn't even dabble into the complexities of shipping and handling. until server meshing is a thing that is actually stable. I don't think a vast majority of the stuff they're spouting about going to have will even be in the game.

[@SpaceTomato]

This is true. I would certainly hope somebody on the team has the background to help build a system like this!

[@emoney7472]

It will never be the dream that is. Space dads are funny.

[@lootjunior]

How come it's called both Quanta and Quantum at the same time? I only ever heard Quanta, but your video proves there is something weird going on.

[@Syphirioth]

Great video!! I should do some catching up on these quality vids!!

[@anthonyclare6750]

Tony Z and Nepotism in hiring.

[@LucidStrike]

I mean, it's not literally without Quantum, just minimal Quantum. As far as I know Quantum has been in charge of fuel and quantum beacons - maybe combat assistance specifically - for years now. It's strange it stopped there, but it's still not true that Quantum hasn't been used at all.

[@AaronAlso]

"We all delays in game development are normal. Although in Star Citizen, they see more the standard than the exception." There, I fixed it for you.

[@toecutter9372]

I believe CIG is just waiting for server meshing. I don't know how they would test quanta with the backers with 70 person servers. When there is 400-500 people or more in a server, thats when its time to bring this online.

[@dashbolt101s]

Fresh info from today's Star Citizen live (May 3rd 2024) : Quantum will be discussed next quarter !

[@EvanRath]

i saw tony in vegas

[@TalosEscanor]

Star citizen will be the real star citizen when the economy and reputation are ready !!!!!!

[@thirdworldrider6991]

i can tell you now and i said it before, and i was right. quanta or quantum or whatever it is... is a dream in a man's head. theres not even a single line of code in the star engine for quanta. it might be a simulation somewhere but not one that can be "inserted" into the game. even if it now got started, theyd now have to put it in game lol

[@SolarTara]

Too bad they have been selling all the real ships this whole time. By the time the games out, with these players who have spent $2000 still want to play? What will they work towards and earn money for if not for ships? If they already own all the cool ships they like. Why play? Base building? Making friends? Sure these probably, but I just think it was slightly a mistake to allow players to purchases every ship in the game for real money, and I hope by release they remove this. I see it being a real problem of players who have spend thousands, struggling to find a real goal to play the game for

[@cos4779]

Watched intro, great questions.

[@Joseph-wh5of]

Star Citizen has many large elephants in a small room.

[@narosushi]

IDK bro.. i can be super wrong on this BUT they didnt even talk a bit of the quanta on last citzencon.. and CRIS loves say things are not even close.. so u can imagine the state of quanta.. OH MAN.. thats SAD!!!

[@Jarvis_aka_UgunnH8This]

Every year is the year people think everything is just about to change. But does it though?

[@danny1988221]

Not getting paid for gas 💀.. soany times this has happened

[@moontreecollective6718]

Eve figured this out 20 years ago. They really need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel or fix what isn’t broken

[@PbPomper]

Another excellent video! Without a dynamic economy the game will be dead before long. It's the driving force behind most of the emergent gameplay.

[@sanctred]

I suspect server performance is holding this back

[@warren3174]

Tony Z? Blink twice if you need help

[@SpaceDad42]

He is being held hostage by Sandi until he figures out a way to increase profits for her shoe closet.

[@EricMartindale]

Their approach to the economy shows they know nothing about economics - you cannot control prices from the top-down, only the market can solve "the calculation problem"

[@jmann3598]

Anyone that thinks this ship price update is anything but a way to push more ship pledge sales is brain dead and coping. If it were just economical changes for balance then some ships would have had their price go down along with some going up.

[@rolinthor]

Some ships did go down but most of them were just doubled, quadrupled, or increased by suspiciously even multiples, showing that the new prices are just as arbitrary as the old ones.

[@NightNord]

IMO (slightly tinfoil hat edition): Tony was (probably no longer works at CIG) the main proponent of the originalish economy-centric design but he had an opposition in form of Todd (confirmed to be no longer working at CIG) who was pushing towards the pvp-centric design. This conflict was never properly resolved thus resulting in stalemate, strange development priorities and even potential sabotage. That is, until Rich came back from SC and Todd was given an ultimatum and left the company (Tony probably left before that since the previous CitizenCon which was basically the Todd's vision triumph. Probably Todd failed to prove that design since that moment). Now we will know what the game will be after 1.0 design will be published. P.S. BTW, Quantum, probability volumes, vnpcs, ship and shop prices and commodity lists - all that is handled or tied into the backend service infrastructure they call diffusion. It's global for all shards and had been since sons 2.something, so server meshing doesn't change anything about it

[@SpaceTomato]

Hopefully they clarify why they bring up server Meshing then! An interesting theory, we'll see how it all plays out!

[@stundardutch5320]

No worries in the next 12 years it will be good.

[@DrFrogglePhD]

They took out everything interesting from 3.23 but still spent most of the promotion on the nonexistent features. Anyone that actually falls for their nonsense deserves disappointment.

[@SpaceTomato]

Promotion?

[@DrFrogglePhD]

@@SpaceTomato Promotion as in media used to promote a product. The videos they upload such as "Inside Star Citizen". Such a deceitful, manipulative group of goblins they are.

[@Sacred421]

With the way insurance is, I could care less about what they are calling economy. If I don't see a player economy, none of this matters to me. Mining consumables and selling that to players is the bridge we need. Along with rarity. Price alerts are almost useless and your still forced to use third party websites for any meaningful trading. But aside from learning where to go, it doesn't change. Basically, you will do the exact same run over and over and over because there is no meaningful change.

[@davewills148]

We cant wait for 3.23 to go live, and even better when 3.23+ drops, we are closser to NPC Crew and AI Blades, thedevs have said it wont be long, and its on the ROADMAP, so not long now, i really wnat to SOLO my Javelin, Perseus and Polaris, will also make using the Mole easier with my NPC Crew, cant wait for my BMM also, fully crewed and a real bitch in Pyro. Coming soon i am told by the community

[@restwellcloud-ix8ee]

Tony z quit cig. He’s gone I hear

[@epiclittleman90]

Salvage gets a pass, no more millions from salvaging. Does this mean mining has rose back to the king of Cash, 🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@madislanddoctor]

CIG is mostly hot air and very very little action. It's become their business model for what, a decade now?

[@TripleXGames]

Great stuff

[@-ZeroRed-]

I don't understand, isn't this absolutely backwards? Why would you jack up prices to such an extent without adjusting payouts and fixing money making opportunities first? Are they trying to keep new players away or what is going on?

[@walawala-fo7ds]

Is he even working at cig?

[@toyahinata]

its this time... right guys? :(

[@Fahd511S]

Beautiful clip

[@citizenbane0115]

scarcity is the name of the game..