Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S3E21: The Die Is Cast

[@phemyda94]

Also what kills me is that last episode Odo watched as Tain successfully persuaded Garak to forget the past and "come home", but when the same exact shot happens in this episode between the Changeling and Odo (and Garak watching knowing how badly Odo wants to return), Odo refuses. Damn. You can tell Garak is humbled by that display of moral fiber.

[@phemyda94]

Garak’s character arc in this two-parter is about realizing that he has fundamentally changed and can’t go back to the life he had. His first conversation with Tain suggests that he really did enjoy his work as an interrogator. But Odo’s taunt during the torture scene (“Isn’t this what you’ve been dreaming of?”) rubs in that, despite his desire to return as though nothing had happened, he’s just not the same person anymore. Look at his parting words to Tain: “the fault is in our stars, not ourselves”. They’re from Julius Caesar, the play he was deriding to Bashir the episode before. He is finally admitting that he has been changed by his experiences and connections on Deep Space 9, that his values have evolved past pleasing Tain and he can no longer blindly follow him. Later revelations about their relationship will make this particularly poignant (no spoilers).

[@TranslatedAssumption]

Everything about the Dominion is what made DS9 great IMO. I have gone back several times and tried to watch the series in it's entirety and I always get bored and look up a listing of Dominion related episodes and just watch those in order. That's not what the show is all about but that's what got me hooked. There are countless great non-dominion episodes but the Dominion episodes with the way they're written and the intrigue behind that power and how they operate, they are the high point for Trek adversaries.

[@Danbutch24]

Superb analysis as always but you missed just one thing in the final moments of the episode. "Garak... I was thinking that you and I should have breakfast together sometime." "Why, Constable... I thought you didn't eat." "I don't." That very last line is very meaningful imo. :)

[@Galvion1980]

I always loved that line! It reveals so much about Odo's capacity for forgiveness and empathy, which are essential to true justice. That weird lump of ooze had so much more "humanity" (for want of a better word) than sooo many humans... There are a few strange paralleles (sp?) between Odo and Superman, if you look at their lives: Both aliens sent away by their parents to grow up among humans/humanoids, both having amazing powers and abilities humans/humanoids could never have, both possessing a total devotion to justice, both mega-awkward around the woman they love...

[@paulscott2037]

Garek 's conversation with Tain where they're discussing his previous career in the order I think is telling. Tain praises him for getting information out of a doctor by never even touching him. Just staring at him. It makes me wonder if Garek did develop a talent for torture but got even better at if when he started to try and find ways to avoid hurting his prisoners.

[@nodiceboss]

Paul Scott Did Garek spend time perfecting inane conversation with Bashir as practice then?

[@mardus_ee]

In this same episode, Gar*a*k never touched Odo either, in the sense of applying pain to him.

[@Dom-ns7pq]

Absolutely agree. DS9 was a perfect blend of action and character development. I’d started watching DS9 during Season 2, but “Die is Cast” cemented this as my favorite series ever. The action is exciting, but the show never loses sight of its characters. I used to have toy Romulan, Cardassian, and Jem Hadar ships and set them up in a diorama simulating the battle in this episode.

[@jamespepper8671]

Sisco immediately puts in a priority message to Star Fleet command. Reminds me of Star Trek VI when the communications officer who was in TOS as Kirk's Yeoman asks, Do we Report this? Sulu responds "Are you kidding?"

[@MissTea_Trekkie]

This episode is AMAZING!!! I love the Garak and Odo scenes - Rene and Andrew did a wonderful job!

[@FreihEitner]

I count "Improbable Cause" and "The Die is Cast", as a two parter, in the same light as "The Best of Both Worlds"--not only as the top two part episodes but as the very best of what Star Trek can be.

[@mr51406]

Superlative, exciting, profound, memorable episode. 🌟 An important turning point in Trek, in Milky Way history, in science fiction. The conjunction of an exciting space battle with a deep psychological examination of two excellent characters. Sci-fi at its best entertains but also informs. This is why DS9 is so significant, even legendary. And the wholesome tasty cherry on that delicious but also nutritious chocolate sundae is Lore’s rumination.

[@LostMercenary99]

Can we just appriciate how the Defiant killed 5 Jem'Hadar ships and disabled another with barely any damage taken? They lost only 20% of their shield strength and accomplished that? Don't f**k with the Sisko indeed!

[@UkrainianPaulie]

Ben Sisko's mother f-ing pimp hand!

[@ChocolatierRob]

If Tain were really considering killing Mila he would have already done it in the last episode with the others, the way i see it he was just trying to keep Garak off balance. Quite frankly a woman like that is too valuable to throw away on a whim, he would still need someone to fulfill her role and vetting someone new is far too risky for someone in his position. It is not the kind of stupid evil he goes in for. The risk of keeping her is far lesser than the risk of replacing her. On Garak going to rescue Odo I don't doubt that he is doing it because he promised him but being such a massive pragmatist he would certainly also have considered that Odo is also his best chance of getting away. His life is now in the hands of the Founders, dumping Odo to try and get away would most probably be suicide. I'm not saying that the pragmatic reasons take anything away from the honorable ones, just that Garak is the sort of person to be aware of both points.

[@sharkdentures3247]

The Garak/Odo (torture) scenes are SO well acted, it draws me in & practically makes me cry. SUCH GOOD ACTING all around! The terrific space battle stuff (which is usually my first focus) was simply the icing on the cake of this episode.

[@UkrainianPaulie]

Never understood why Odo didn't break that device.

[@Galvion1980]

@@UkrainianPaulie Because then we wouldn't have gotten that amazing, gloriously acted scene!

[@evalramman7502]

This episode and the previous one were one of the subtlest and interesting episodes in all of ST.

[@jameswhite153]

this episode felt like the bay of pigs, a bunch of spies carrying out an invasion that ultimately ends in disaster.

[@tomgriffiths2622]

These 2 episodes really kicked it into high gear The slow burn started with the jem'hadar

[@tomgriffiths2622]

Admiral toddman is following orders...and to cover his ass from a non sanctioned scout mission

[@michaelkotcher5491]

This is one of my favorite episodes of the series, well the two. But Tain's last line was so powerful and delivered so well. "These Founders, Elim, they're very good. Next time, we should be more careful." Tain, the pragmatist, is making a detached soliloquy, but do you think he's going to let this stand? No! He's a survivor, as well. Oh, I'm not done here. And while I might not be the one to bring them down, this isn't the end, it's only round one. Well done you, for getting me this time, but next time? Next time, we'll be ready. And I quite enjoy the hero rescue by the Defiant. Though the thought that they're moving at a speed where Dax can call out the number of METERS that separate the Jem'Hadar fighters and the Defiant is ludicrous. 2000 to 500 in two seconds? More like the instant the words are out of her mouth. But that's a minor complaint. Love seeing the Defiant do what she was designed to do.

[@athrunzala6919]

The most amazing thing about this episode is that the Romulans actually shared cloaking tech with the Obsidian order Spy Masters "Equip our ships with your top secret cloaks, we won't be able examine them at all while their on our ships and develop the tech later" Dumbest Romulan Ever "O kay"

[@Lonovavir]

My head Canon is the Tal Shiar was trying to compete with the real Romulan military, saying look we can do it better than you!!!! Like a cocky kid. Tal Shiar: We'll even give the Cardassians cloaking devices. Romulan military (thinking to themselves) Morons (spoken statement) sure go for it, you can steamroll the founders in one attack (internal thought) They'll get massacred and we'll gain power.

[@Redshirt434]

ODO!!! Talk to me!! Tell me something!! Lie if you have to, but say it NOW, PLEASE!!! That whole scene was insane for me then 12 year old brain.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I find it funny that when Odo and Garak torture each other: they each get the answer they want most. “Who are you?” “What do you want?”

[@francoislacombe9071]

When I saw the fleet enter the wormhole, and later heard Tain's telling of their plan, I could only think of the following saying: The best way to lose a war is to underestimate your ennemy (I don't know where I first heard it, I may even have come up with it myself). Tain had definitely and massively underestimated the Dominion. I guess that's what hubris does for you.

[@paulscott2037]

Point of order. Admiral Toddman was Chief of Starfleet security, not science admiral, hence the gold shirt and not a blue shirt. There was also the communication and listening post on the other side of the wormhole now so having the defiant serve as an advanced scout would likely be a little redundant.

[@Norvo82]

Not necessarily. When a Dominion invasion fleet started to move towards the wormhole in season 5, Sisko ordered the Defiant into the Gamma Quadrant for early reconnaissance despite the numerous listening posts Starfleet had left there since season 3. A starship can provide more accurate intel than a glorified relay station.

[@wcoleman99]

The only real problem I had with this episode is the whole Odo could sense the one admiral was a channeling from the we got to secure Earth episode. But that could be the whole we don't know Romulans well and his sixth sense on his people is never used outside that one episode.

[@coffeeveins]

To be fair, the biggest hint about the Admiral actually being a changeling was the barely restrained disdain and resentment it was showing towards Odo that didn’t fit for the Admiral to have. That only existed because of Odo doing the unthinkable and killing a fellow changeling in the season 3 finale. Since that hasn’t happened yet, that clue wouldn’t be there for Lovak to need to hide. Plus the reveal about how large and widespread the changeling infiltration had become hasn’t happened yet, so the instinct to suspect everyone of possibly being a changeling wasn’t as prevalent yet.

[@gingeroverseer9302]

Wonderful analysis thank you Lore I too thoroughly enjoyed this episode and was pleasantly surprised by the battle sequence. I was accustomed to two ships spraying lasers pew pew two shot up until the borg but ds9 was so much bigger much broader in its visual presentation.

[@MF-yt6to]

This was one of the best episodes of DS9, also I would loved to see a what if about this episode. What If the Cardassians and Romulan fleet actually wiped out most of the Founders ?

[@butcherjsy8]

The remaining Founders, along with the Jem'Hadar and Vorta would've wreaked untold damage to both empires.

[@athrunzala6919]

Great episode Would love to see the episode redone in HD along with a few others to come The scene when the girl calls out the Dominion fleet is coming - best smallest role performance ever

[@UkrainianPaulie]

Love DS9 for more ship battles, war/ground combat, darker/grittier edge etc. Oh and the Defiant! I agree. The station was on the front line and Starfleet didn't seem to give a rats ass.

[@butcherjsy8]

It was all to create tension of course. Another thing that makes little sense, why didn't the Dominion heavily fortify their side of the wormhole? Because it wouldn't serve the show well!

[@tobiaswalker7562]

I'm sorry if this is spoiling it...but I knew ever since the wire Enabran was Garak's father...and it's fairly easy to guess when Mila spoke to Garak who she is.

[@shinsenkitsune8823]

You commented on the admiral not being in red, or in essence the command color. In TOS there were commodores that wore non command colors. For example red, ironically.

[@TheMarcHicks]

I was hooked on DS9 from the moment I saw Duet, but this two parter is definitely one of my favourite episodes of DS9 (alongside Sacrifice of Angels).

[@saxbend]

I've always felt that the "secret" Odo reveals following his torture undermines the rest of the episode. It's unsurprising, tells us nothing we wouldn't have imagined, and reveals nothing about Odo's loyalty and it gives no useful information to help any party deal with the Dominion. Odo wants to return to his homeworld and spend more time among other members of his species and learn all about what their life is like. There are probably biological drives. So what? Why is this important or sufficient for Garak to stop the torture? And then he keeps it a secret anyway, which suggests that he needn't have gone to the lengths he did to uncover it in the first place.

[@johnashley327]

The best part of the episode is the interrogation of Odo by Garak.

[@michaelkotcher5491]

Maybe Admiral Toddman is a Changeling. Keep the Defiant there so Starfleet had no real idea what happened, only that the R/C fleet doesn't return.

[@nickokona6849]

Loved this episode. I live Garak as a character. Admiral Toddman is the only admiral I recall ever seeing not wearing Command division colours. I loved how Sisko kind of sarcastically pokes at the level of support from Starfleet. 9 whole starships kinda deal. This exact same thing kind of happens in a future episode. This is also the first time you get to see the Defiant as Siskos Pimp Hand (to borrow a phrase from Lore Reloaded). Ya, it does ok in Defiant, but it’s ultimately a failure, and it’s only ever shown fighting two ships. Neither of which are blown up.

[@kevinrussell3501]

Garek tortures Odo to find out the both have the same desires, to go home. But they can't no matter how much they want to. It's pretty awesome. BTW, this episode has my favorite action one liner in Star Trek, "Not as singed if they're going to get".