Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S4E1&2: The Way Of The Warrior

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[@nickokona6849]

Re the root beer scene: for me, it seemed like a great affirmations of the Federations ideals and way of life, rather than some sort of rebuke. Quark and Garak. One, a capitalist Cyclopes, the other, a ruthless agent of a nationalist fascist empire. Both very unlike the Federation but in very different ways. They both are acknowledging that the Federation is essentially winning them over. Bit by bit. Not with proclamations or decree. The more time they spend in proximity of the Federation the more they like it. The Federation is either engaged in brain washing, or their ideals and way of life must be more effective at reaching fundamental goals. That’s how I saw it. The hing they seem most unnerved about is how slowly and incrementally their feelings toward the Federation have changed.

[@ifandbut]

Yep...the Root-beer scene is one of the best scenes in sci-fi history.

[@paulscott2037]

I have to point out that the search and seizure of the Xhosa was anything but peaceful. Kassidy specifies that they were under attack the her transmission was actively jammed and when the defiant showed up the freighter was locked in a tractor beam. Those are all acts of extreme belligerence. Now that is probably fairly restrained by Klingon standards but they are in Bajoran/Federation space and would need to play by their rules. This is further made worse by the Xhosa only just leaving the station an hour before so they didn't even have enough time to go anywhere that would change their circumstances from when they were likely just inspected at DS9. (They'd taken security procedures for shapeshifters on the station, you can't tell me they don't take precautions for ships docking with them.) Sisko's actions here are spot on..

[@Rasolisu]

In the Novel she goes to warp when the Klingons tried to first beam over, then got a message out. When the Defiant gets there it was attempt 2 and the ship was calling for backup to have another crew beam over. The beaming his crew out into space is what lead to the captain being executed.

[@captmoroni]

54:50 About that root beer scene, it’s amazing to me just how relevant General Chang in Klingon Academy continues to be. The Federation is the Klingons’ greatest (potential) threat because of its “institutionalized policies of subversion.” They have “subverted the cultures of every species with whom they coexist,” and will do the same to the Empire if they open themselves to the Fed’s influence. Like Lore says, the Federation does play politics. It is insidious. And (spoiler alert), at least other race will discover how they’ve been subverted. Gotta love DS9.

[@danielyeshe]

The Klingon’s may be allies but that doesn’t mean they can do what they want. To use a real world argument, sorry, if a ship from one nation was searching ships in the territorial waters of another there would be a response. That said kicking it up the chain of command would have been a good idea.

[@LostMercenary99]

I always saw the root beer scene, in hindsight, as a warm up to the epic Federation bashing a certain future ex-officer will give to Sisko later this season.

[@rexremedy1733]

Haha, the drinking trick is actually proof that the bloodletting is no measure to identify a changeling.

[@Nethar6]

I love the Rootbeer scene, it is one of these moments we only seem to get from DS9 where we see the Federation from an outside perspective. And why these outsiders are putting up with the sanctimonious bricks so much.

[@dylanlewis5113]

Voyager got the new Tricorders, but they still left with the TNG Phasers. Then they somehow got the First Contact Phasers and rifles. Must have come from the same place they got all their shuttles and torpedoes.

[@paulscott2037]

I'm really disappointed that you didn't talk about the point of the battle when the station gets boarded. Because I think it's one of the few occasions that does an action scene that is character driven. In ops you have Sisko is just being sisko fighting with his bare hands and giving it all he's got. Meanwhile Kira also is but she just can't quite keep up with everything that's going on around her and gets stabbed, but then keeps fighting until the Klingon who stabbed her is down before allowing herself to fall over. Dax and Worf go hand to hand with the Bat'leth and Mek'leth but while Dax does what she has to and is looking fatigued worf is downright enjoying himself effortlessly. Then there's O'Brien who literally stands right by his post and takes klingons out with his phaser, pretty proficiently. He stands his ground and doesn't budge until a Klingon gets close enough to actually hit him at which points just doesn't have the physicality to resist. Down on the promenade Odo is fighting hand to hand with no weapon on him which despite his own personal rule on weapons is pretty wise because a Klingon would not choose to attack him with a disrupter when he is unarmed and all these glory seeking klingons just want a piece of him. Bashir then makes what is probably up until that point the most long range and accurate phaser shot in history and then runs back into the infirmary. Then we have Dukat who is again fighting hand to hand, fighting behind Garek who is still using his phaser and taking out klingons surgically.

[@hughsmith7504]

agree, this is one of the few big fights in star trek that i actually thought was worth breaking down. If nothing else the fact that DS9 is putting some much of a fight that even the klignons acknowledged it was a great moment...plus that glorious torpedo guncam montage!

[@erikagardea8334]

In my opinion, these videos should have way more views. Great job on this series.

[@1987jock]

I don't think Dorn's acting really warrants criticism. He's recently just lost everything that meant something to him and has spent months doing Klingon rituals. He doesn't really know where he belongs or what to do. I think anyone would come across as a bit stiff in those circumstances. As for the root beer scene, it always makes me think that the Federation aren't really much different to the Borg - they just have a different assimilation strategy. The Borg's idea of perfection is something that is 'infinitely complex, yet harmonious', which I find strangely similar to IDIC.

[@CavalloDiSpade]

I just rewatched this and I have to say I really love Worf's acting here. I think it makes complete sense for him to be very stiff, for a few reasons. I agree with what you said, but the rasons I thought of (which I think also apply) are a bit different. Worf is actually quite an introverted person, and quite a private person. This was very clear throughout TNG. Worf opened up to the Enterprise D crew because he got to know them well over the years. At this point, he barely knows Sisko and co at all. Of course, he'll warm up to them as he gets to know them as well, but this is the firs time he's meeting any of them.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

to be literal: unwarranted is simply lacking a warrant (whoever has the legal power to grant that document) in certain cases, the warrant may be an office one holds eg: sheriff (a position which gives on the discretion to decide whether the search is founded or not).... in others a permission received from the court/authority (as is common in Britain and much of Europe, a magistrate must first issue permission, only then a search of any kind may be conducted) "do you have evidence" it is a common thing that evidence of reasonable suspicion need to be given to conduct a search (accept where a border is crossed), so in most places in Europe this would certainly be a very valid statement... I have a feeling in many states in the US this is also true, though probably not in all

[@Bradaphraser]

I love the root beer scene because it gives a great outsider view of the Federation by two characters who know they would not be welcome in the ideal society. They are two shades of rogue: Quark is the thief and Garrack is the liar. Because they wouldn't be able to do what they are comfortable with in the ideal society, they express an understandable hostility toward it. Even so, they have to acknowledge that they'd probably like it in the Federation... and that thought terrifies them.

[@CavalloDiSpade]

about sisko's hair style: over the course of the series, he just goes progressively more and more Walter White. Fits a little bit with the character arc too lol

[@mb2000]

Voyager didn’t have the new tricorders and phasers until about Season 2-3. They left the Alpha Quadrant with the bulkier TNG style ones and inexplicably changed to the new ones about a year or so after getting lost! Another thing the producers didn’t care about and/or thought the viewers were too stupid to notice. I’d think that DS9 could detect the cloaked Romulan/Cardassian fleet as it was moving, whereas the Klingon fleet here was virtually stationary. Also, I’m sure they could detect signs of a Warbird’s singularity core more easily than a normal engine. Plus DS9 has a Romulan cloak to examine.

[@rad666a]

The Federation is the Borg. The only difference is the Federation waits until you let them assimilate you.

[@steakman1989]

This is an fantastic DS9 episode, and I think you really nailed the analysis of the Federation with the Root Beer scene and the Klingons. Though the goal of the Federation is not homogeneity, it does appear so to outsiders, and the Federation has a way of engaging in a kind of imperialism that subsumes everyone under it (which a certain Maquis leader will point out). In turn, I can see how war between the Klingons and Federation is all but inevitable. Though there is Changeling interference that is driving the Federation and Klingon Empire to war, I think it would have come eventually. Even in TNG there were Klingons pushing for the Empire to become more expansionist, and that drive is not only for resources but because Klingon identity (broadly speaking) is built through combat and victory, and by being at peace too long with the Federation, they were likely to be subsumed under its cultural (re:human) hegemony. It is interesting to read this Federation-Klingon War (though not yet officially declared) in light of the War of 2256-57 which was driven by T'Kuvma and the Klingon xenophobia and fear of loosing who they are, hence the rallying cry of "Remain Klingon". This is a sentiment that continue until STVI with Azetbur's hesitancy at first with peace with the Federation (her calling it a homo-sapiens-only club) and General Chang who kept his head shaved in a manner like Klingons in that war. The Cardassians were a convenient target for the war, but the Council and Gowron probably knew that such an act would lead to war with the Federation, and I think that's what they wanted because the "old ways" of figures like T'Kuvma, L'Rell, Kor (and the House of Kor for that matter), Kruge, and Chang would mean fighting not only for the sake of being Klingon, but also against that which would deny their Klingon-ness. It makes you consider then the significance of the Enterprise-C's sacrifice on the Klingon Empire even more because that is what made the Federation and Empire into allies.

[@hat8918]

The idea Sisko would risk war to save his girlfriend is preposterous. He should have insisted to come along, at which he confirms with Starfleet the appropriate action. The idea Starfleet wasn't already checking every ship coming through the wormhole, given the events of prior episodes is ridiculous.

[@bbbbKeJodddd]

On the Federation not backing the Klingon in mounting a defensive line, remember that the Fed just saw what happened to a joint operation against the Dominion a season ago.

[@intrinsical]

It is an unwarranted search because they are in Bajoran space, hence under Bajoran legal jurisdiction. Sisko was also policing Bajoran laws, not Federation laws. And I am not sure the Klingons are allied to the Bajorans. This search would be the equivalent to a British warship conducting a search within US waters. Unless the British warship had permission from Washington or the Pentagon, it would be an unwarranted search. It is why, as you said, the Klingons had to move their search out of Bajoran space and into "international" space.

[@danielyeshe]

intrinsical Sorry for copying you. I missed your comment before I typed mine.

[@badmaninc.536]

What I find rather interesting and in the Klingon conquest strategy and their renewed conflict with the federation is how actually ill thought it is from a logistical perspective. The territory of the Klingon empire is located (at least according to every map of the Trek galaxy that I’ve ever seen) in the Beta quadrant, while the Cardassian Union is entirely in the Alpha quadrant. Right smack between them is the length and breadth of the Federation. “Conquer Cardassia, and send resources back to the heart of the empire...and now we also go to war with the Federation.” Umm unless you plan on taking the absurdly long time to go around the entirety of Federation space to send those resources back home you have to cross through the Federation... whom you are now at war with. Cestus III is eight weeks at maximum warp from DS9 (as stated by Cassidy Yates) and that’s logically assuming that she’s taking a direct route through Federation space. Cestus III borders the Gorn Hegemony... which borders the Klingon Empire and you can see where I’m going with this. From an out of universe perspective having the Klingons as an antagonist again is actually pretty awesome (and sets up a fantastic joke which I will share when we get to the relevant episode) In universe, the whole occupation of cardassia by the Klingons, ( the first taste cardassia gets that we see of what it’s like to be occupied by a conqueror... nice touch) and the shipping of the gains of said occupation back to the empire must be a logistical nightmare given the state of open hostilities with the Federation. Excellent analysis as always Lore, thought I’d share my own thoughts. Super excited for next Monday’s episode!

[@Lonovavir]

It's possible Gowron was trying to distract the Klingon population from internal problems and started this war for political and not military reasons. Sadly that happens in real life.

[@redshirt5126]

I have a theory about the Klingon cloaking devices and how they avoid bumping into each other. In ww2 the Japanese Navy was able to operate at night because they had developed advanced training and night fighting tactics. They could literally sail in a tight formation without collisions and could coordinate weapons fire against American ships without the risk of friendly fire. I honestly think the Klingon ship crews are trained effectively enough to avoid running into each other by maintaining a pre-assigned position in a formation. Mix it in with some unique technology for limited communication between ships and you have an effective force that can coordinate their movements and bring a powerful first strike against an enemy at the same time.

[@stevemanart]

10:00 I can't speak to today, but I saw Avery Brooks about six years ago and he was still shaved bald and with goatee exactly like Hawk and Sisko. 31:40 Dorn has said in interviews that filming on DS9 was a lot stricter and less playful than on TNG, and this lack of onscreen chemistry may be attributable to that. 55:00 There's a clip of that scene on youtube that I've watched a good dozen+ times, especially when working on my sci-fi RPG setting that is Star Trek without the canon baggage and more Regency-era fashion and anime hair colors. Because I feel that line is an excellent look at how nonhumans see humanity. Not the Federation, which is a slant on your description of an empire, but humans. As they are the core of the slant empire that is the Federation. humanity is, in their desire to be helpful and make everyone's lives better, the single most effective empire in the galaxy. Simply by being kind and waving their medical technology around they get people begging to become vassal states to the human empire.

[@Guiscardr]

Sisko, last week: promoted to Captain Sisko, this week: starts war with Klingons.

[@charjl96]

Chris Darga plays Kaybok, the Klingon who stopped Cassidy. He was also the voice of Kenny Blankenship from MXC.

[@randybobandy3840]

My reason for DS9 not detecting the Klingon fleet but able to detect the Romulan/Cardassian fleet was them having a better (not full) understanding of Romulan cloaking technology because of the cloak on the Defiant given to them by the Romulans which would be worked on by the crew and maybe the reason they couldn't exactly identify the fleet straight away as Romulan is because the Romulans gave the Federation a slightly out of date model of cloak (keeping in line with Romulan thinking), so DS9 could detect "something" but because they were a newer model couldn't pin-point it as Romulan.

[@random_eskimo_in_the_rockies]

The root beer scene is one of the best Star Trek segments across the whole ST Universe.

[@tbk2010]

This is the episode that completely won me over. Before this one I only occasionally watched DS9, but when I saw this It was almost a "best of both worlds" kind of movie experience. I think I even somehow watched it before it was on local TV (months after the US airing of course). Bringing Worf over seemed a bit gimmicky even back then, but in the end it worked.

[@williammcguire130]

No lie this is my favorite episode of Star Trek. Love your breakdown of Sisko as a bad military ally. Always thought he was too quick to escalate with the Federations bedrock military ally to send an olive branch to Cardassians who couldn't be trusted anyway

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I figured the Root Beer scene was meant to be like this: Quark has already gotten used to having the Federation around (serving the root beer for Nog) and he isn’t sure he likes liking them. It’s not what he’s traditionally liked and what he’s believed in. Yet, he is coming to like serving it and having them around. Meanwhile Garak is less submerged into the Federation so far, and so it’s more stark to him. He understands assimilation under the Blue Flag is almost inevitable, but he has a sort of hesitation as to his feelings on it. Just my two cents, I’d love to get a real debate going with reasonable people for once (like the people who watch LoreRunner, because all of you are awesome and I love you).

[@thomaswalsh5848]

"I miss the Federation... I WANNA SELL ROOTBEER AGAIN!!" - Quark early season 6

[@MBF78]

I guess I'm the one on the other side, as far as the theme song goes. I prefer the version from the first three seasons. It's hard to explain how, but that one feels more solemn, while the later one sounds more like it's rushing to get through. In a way it's kinda like when a show that's been going for a longer time and has started with a longer credits sequence, decides to cut it short, as if to say "you already know who these guys are, you don't need to see them over and over again".

[@ohgoditshimrun1346]

For how the cloaked fleet managed to stay in formation, I have always assumed that operating a ship under cloak has an impact on the sensors, and those species that routinely make use of cloaks develop different types of sensors that do function while cloaked, which entails the opportunity to properly calibrate those sensors and those cloaks to be able to keep track of your allies. Without having any magical ability to piece the cloaks of enemy craft that haven't gone out of their way to calibrate in coordination with you.

[@iBloodxHunter]

34:40 It's because they don't want any changelings to get ahold of their plan. (Ironic I know.)

[@plainbagel9192]

concerning the unwarranted search, if you're going to use a legal definition, the fact it was done in bejoran space , right there the Klignons had 0 jurisdiction in executing the search. I doubt an officer from one state/ province can exercise his legal right in another state/province , unless it's an officer holding federal authority.

[@paulscott2037]

The root bear scene I've always interpreted as Quark and Garek speaking as two members of their respective races both of which having a certain superiority complex over the rest of the galaxy. (The cardasians definitely do and the ferengi have the attitude for it even if it's completely unjustified) and they have the realisation that despite their own race's goals it's the federation who will always win because for better or for worse, they are the good guys.

[@NoelleMar]

I also love that Quark is so often RIGHT. I don’t mean morally (obviously…) but in terms of his observations. What I like is that the serious scene about the root beer is comedic because it’s the snarky Garak and Quark. I had no idea that this was supposed to show how the Federation sucks lol. Seems very tongue in cheek--both mocking and honoring the Federation. This seems less like the freedom vs. security debate to me and more like a jurisdiction issue. The Klingons might be the allies, but they are stepping all over other people’s territory. Before you said it, I was also thinking that Klingons’ main goal in expansion is probably fun lol. I’d say Klingons enjoy it MORE than humans since, like you said, they have a romantic connection with violence. Interestingly, I liked Worf’s lack of “chemistry” with everyone. I guess I did read that as discomfort, as he states throughout the episode. He meets a number of senior officers playing darts and dressed up in medieval clothing in a bar. And then Dax immediately flirts with him in Klingon, as you point out, lol. For a stoic Klingon and member of Starfleet, it’s all rather disconcerting. Ooh I forgot about the ambiguity of whether the changelings infiltrated Cardassia and helped overthrow the government. This IS Cardassia we’re talking about. Honestly, I always assumed Cardassians did that themselves, but revisiting the episode, knowing more about what happens later, does make me think it’s possible. SPOILERS: I HAD NO IDEA GOWRON WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHANGELING. I feel like it makes so much more sense for Martok to be the changeling, but I’m sure that’s only because of hindsight.

[@athrunzala6919]

Yes, one of the best obviously, in the whole Star Trek franchise. I want to know Meaney's first thought was when Dorn came on. " This is my turf Dorn" or something. I refuse to believe that that was the first time Worf learned about darts! Dax and Kira coming out of the Holo suite, priceless. "You punched Lancelot!" I thought Gowron's acting was like a drunk madman when he tried to recruit Worf, it was nuts and off putting Sisko going to his girlfriends aid, the Klingon's search would have been over by the time they got there. Garek was awesome in every scene! Martok is awseome, he's my favourite Klingon even more so than Worf. Worf is an outsider playing an idealized version of what he thinks his people are, Martok is the true Klingon. The battle was epic, lots of extras to do up, lots of tree ornaments to destroy. Loved the NegVar and its cannons As a history buff, even when I was a kid watching for the first time, their line really got to me. "History is written by the victor" That line -- that fact -- changed my life.

[@thomaswalsh5848]

Gowrons inflection in that scene makes me think of Cheech & Chong, the dialogue is very well written but the way alot of it comes out cracks me up.. At first it sounds like he says "Woof.. WOOOOOOFFF!!" Then again maybe he dipped into a bit too much blood wine or Klingon weed.. Or both.

[@paulscott2037]

The lack of support for DS9 is an issue in terms of the number of ships assigned to the station. But as far as engineering support goes I think that's highly believable. O'Brien will have spent the first year simply trying to keep the station running and learning about cardassian systems. I wouldn't be surprised if it then took the next two years to come up with a plan for how Starfleet tech could be integrated into cardassian tech including experiments into its implementation.

[@AdamCollings]

I'd known for about a year that Worf was coming to DS9 (because we always got shows a year late in Australi and I was active on Usenet) but it was still exciting to see it actually happen. It felt like a really bold move at the time, to take a regular character from one TV show, and make them a regular on another show. I don't think it had ever been done before. The difference in the tricorder prop must have been subtle, because I never notice a different, and I usually notice stuff like that.

[@wcoleman99]

All I could think of Martin with the bloodletting is when Old man Admiral owns a Cajun restaurant Sisko in a later episode mentions the horading blood to let out on command. Makes me wonder if the changling was already Martok or if they switched him out later.

[@Galvion1980]

I say he already was Changelling-Martok! The blood-test thing was just another trick from their arsenal of psychological warfare. Make the enemy feel safe while undermining them. It's as devious as it is clever.

[@tbk2010]

Oh, the root beer scene: I never was quite sure what the intention was, but these day I would see it as a comment on the cultural problems globalization brings with it. The more all of mankind (or human-like-species-kind) is coming together, the more previously distinct groups will loose part of their unique identity as they become increasingly dependent on the whole. There is no ill intention and the upside may outweigh the downsides, but it is still kind of sad. Also, i think both Sisko and the Klingons acted recklessly, but the Klingons were WAY out of line. Would you accept some random NATO member (lets say Turkey) conducting random searches on civilian US ships?

[@francoislacombe9071]

"...the simple fact of the matter is they don't have a good way to detect changelings and, spoiler alert, they never will." I've been giving this some thought, and I wondered about something. Would changelings be detectable by dogs? I mean, if a changeling turns into a chair, it's not really a chair, even though it will appear as such even to tricorders. But that "chair" will still be a changeling, it will have a molecular composition different from that of a chair, and it will therefore give off scent molecules different from those a real chair would. So, do changelings have a characteristic scent that dogs, with their awesome sense of smell, would be able to detect regardless of the shape they take?

[@EnvisionerWill]

Letting the Klingons "peacefully" search Cassidy's ship would have been utterly dangerous. One crew member looks at one Klingon the wrong way, and suddenly the entire crew has been gutted. The Klingons are reflexively violent, fixated on intangible and incomprehensible concepts of "honor" and "respect" and the like, and have very little self-control (with obvious but rare and exceptional exceptions, Worf above all others). Nobody sane would allow Klingons onto their ship for any reason if they could possibly avoid it. So this is a VERY justifiable reason to take a stand on the "no unreasonable search and seizure" thing. I'd quote the Bill of Rights myself if there were a bunch of twitchy-looking thugs who *claim* to have a search warrant tried to march into my house and wave their guns around, even if they SAID they didn't plan to shoot; it's just not a good idea to have those kind of guys anywhere near you ever.

[@wendyheatherwood]

Klingons searching ships in Bajoran space is like a French cop doing traffic stops in Australia. They might have a reason to suspect the driver but they have less authority to do anything than a random local trying to carry out a citizen's arrest.

[@bobwill]

When you say "How do you define unwarranted." I just picture Kirk and Decker in TMP.

[@Norvo82]

Another reason for Gowron to want Worf by his side as the Klingons conquer Cardassia: it's great optics to have the one Klingon serving under you. What better way to prove to the public that the Federation was wrong and you were right?

[@BleydTorvall]

The Federation is always working towards that Diplomatic Victory. And by the time you realize it, you're too invested in them to stop them. They've drawn you in and made you want to work with them. It's insidious.

[@seaconfused]

Finally! After all these years I learn what Jadzia said to Worf lol!

[@jef_3006]

I took unwarranted to mean "without a judge issued search warrant", like what police in the US need to search your home. The search may be warranted, but they definitely don't have a warrant. Also, imagine for a moment that a French (Klingon) navy destroyer stopped and searched a cargo ship as it left a US (Baj/Fed) harbor, without anyone in the French navy contacting the US first. There would be outrage. Our military allies don't get to police our citizens within our borders whenever they want. They certainly aren't allowed to do so using their military. Now imagine a US destroyer that is present demands the French stop. The French do not. Calling the French President is probably not an option. At best you would call the US President and they would call the French, and even then, the ship is being illegally seized by a foreign power while you do so. So yeah, you fire a warning shot. "Well the French are our allies, and none of the cargo is time sensitive, so why does it matter." Because the US government lays down the laws in the US, not the French Navy. That's what makes it the US, not France. And that's only true as long as you enforce it. Sovereignty

[@UkrainianPaulie]

I never understood the continuation of using the cardassian systems on the station. O'Brien updates the guts, but the displays and Cardi "LCARS" remain the same.

[@Wizardof]

Mr. WORF, you HAVE been on a ship with a cloak before!!!

[@BleydTorvall]

Regarding the situation with the Klingons attempting to search Cassidy's ship, in hindsight, I got the impression that Cassidy might have antagonized the Klingons in some way before hand and brought in Sisko to intervene for her own personal reasons. Spoilers: Cassidy is later revealed to be a smuggler for the Maquis, so if she had any cargo or other evidence of such an affiliation on board that might be turned up by an impromptu search, it would make sense that she might attempt to run or at least be suspiciously uncooperative, drawing greater attention from Klingons who may have been far less aggressive in their initial attempts. And after failing to evade the check, she could feel the need to contact DS9 for intervention, where she is known to be on friendly (or more) terms with the station's captain, and is likely to get the benefit of the doubt over some random Klingons. Then again, this is DS9, so it's entirely possible that they hadn't even planned for Cassidy to be a Maquis at this point.

[@Spartanj42]

This episode shows more than most Klingon episodes, that they really are space vikings.

[@Jokie155]

It's the tempo beat of the new intro that makes me actively hate it so much. That 'one-two one-two one-two' tone that's most obvious right at the end when the rest of the music fades out is just infuriating to listen to. That and the old theme captured the frontier feeling far better. If there's more to add I'll edit it in, just wanted to get that down quickly.

[@michaelkotcher5491]

It isn’t alpha canon, but in the novelization, Drex and his cronies are actually trying to infiltrate the station computers to assess defenses. Garak sets up a fake profile and then goes with Odo and provokes them. They attack him, access his computer, get the fake profile and report the false info (that they think is true) back to Martok.

[@timf7413]

Regarding the way Sisko handled the Klingons and the frieghter, I think it's a reasonable assumption that Bajoran law does have some sort of provision for what constitutes a "warranted" search that was not being met, and even if there was, the Klingons were still acting improperly because they have no authority or jurisdiction to enforce anything in Bajoran/Federation space. Just because someone's your military ally doesn't mean they can come and do whatever they want in your territory, and even if the Federation did agree to cede them that right, Bajoran space isn't Federation space. Bottom line, Sisko was absolutely right to prevent the Klingons from doing what they were doing where they were doing it,even if the rationale behind what they were doing made sense. In fact, impinging on someone else's territory without an explicit invite, even if they are an ally could potentially be considered an act of war.

[@scd147]

This is one of my favorites of all of the series. I would argue that the battle at DS9 in this episode is the pinnacle of model work in television. After this was the push to CGI. I think the only model work that really rivals this is from Saga of a Star World and Mr. Dykstra himself.

[@allengarner3922]

In other words, not fighting back takes the fun out of conquering

[@George_M_]

Season 4 is where the show gets *good*

[@superbear4227]

I always liked the new DS9 intro over the old one myself.

[@ZonkPJ]

The klingon that stops the Xhosa is called Commander Kaybok. memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kaybok

[@allamaraine8066]

Bald is a good look on you, brotha, so don’t sweat it. 🍻🖖🏾

[@TroyeMB]

*sigh* -- I had a running commentary going, and then my internet crashed... ... but I wanted to say a couple of things (mostly just musing on my part) ... -- Lore, I had a mental image of Sisko with your TRUE preferred hair... um... no... ... -- I wonder how Lore knows so much about empires? ---------- The Empire ---------- (capital T, capital E) -- oh... right... ... -- good hiding of your true intention of conquering the universe, Lore (I meant a GAME... really...) ... Lore, I just wanted you to know that my way of watching your ruminations has always been to pause the vid whenever you bring up a point that gets me thinking, to tell you my thoughts, and then to continue the vid... (I know, I'm weird -- I'm a platypus... what do you want from me?) -- so your idea of ruminations actually being a discussion with your audience has taken root -- at least with ONE viewer... (PlatyMcBear)

[@ManicMTG]

I don’t know that much about DS9 but did the Cardassians remove the weapons from the station when they left? I would think given their mindset and the proximity to bejore it would have weapons out the ass.

[@MF-yt6to]

The door beer scene is one of favorite. I view the scene as, the two people who the Federation make life hardest, who's worlds view are vastly different then the Federation. Giving both real and bias criticisms, the Federation does improve the lives of their citizens and allies. Which is very addicting, and now the the Federation does make you act and thing like them. That both a good and bad thing.They do make the galaxy better, but they are so naive and blinded by their ideology. Which is totally naive and idealistic, that it is self destructive. I do like the end when both Quark and Garak, both say they need the Federation. Also, just a tangent, I would love to see a what if. Where Admiral Leyton and his supporters, find out about the Klingons invasion. Leyton then goes to Gowron and they work some type of deal. Wait until he can take control of the Federation, he could even bring them into his plan. Klingon warrior, would make very good security forces. Then they both could deal with the dominion and the other power in the Alpha and Beta quadrant.

[@LLoydNichols]

Best Trek ever

[@Tuvok_Shakur]

Hey lore, just fyi it's Marc A-lie-mo theres a panel clip on youtube where Ira SB says it

[@EnvisionerWill]

@Lorerunner: What do you mean by the way Ira Steven Behr wanted to end the show? If you don't want to talk about it directly, can you link me to a source that explains what you're talking about?

[@Lorerunner]

trekmovie.com/2018/08/21/ira-steven-behr-reveals-how-he-really-wanted-star-trek-deep-space-nine-to-end-more-ds9-at-stlv-2018/

[@wcoleman99]

I'm glad they didn't go with that ending. That was a little to Moonlighting meets Gary Shandling show type of ending. Might as well have had Bob Newhart wake up saying let me tell you about this crazy dream I had.

[@edro8826]

Throughout this episode Worf wasn't wanting to be part of the Federation, he was always talking and acting like he wants to be Klingon and then offered to be that... He says no... Now the Klingon's going on war path he should have said yes... otherwise he should have not complained so much about being part of the federation.

[@user-yv4mm6bx3c]

You're analysis on Empires is quite right. They inevitably collapse because the population is so focused on taking the natural resources and the creative ways to be more efficient that builds a stable economy, the Empire does not cultivate those traits within the preexisting Empire. Freedom to pursue ideas and the respect of private property for those that do create something that is in high demand are essential. If there is no personal incentive, the people don't do anything but take from others. This is not sustainable since, those that can and do create are either killed or leave such Empire. When the Empire can no longer expand, because it meets a force equal to or greater than themselves, it eventually runs out of resources. Germany, the Soviet Union, and Japan are all 20th century examples. 21st century examples will include, China, North Korea and Venezuela; even Russia again.

[@mihokspawn]

Federation is 'The Brave New World'

[@drakejohnson5386]

Something I've never understood is why the klingon empire, who has a firm allegiance with the federation (who hates the romulans) and gowron (who hates the house of duras which were known to be romulan allies) don't just colonize the romulan empire. The romulan empire would be just as good for expanding the klingon empire and the federation may actually act as military allies. The romulans are always worse in a fight than they claim, their strength is subterfuge. We see that only once the federation, klingons, romulans and cardassians unite can the dominion be defeated. The romulans helped, but weren't the kingmakers they thought they were.

[@Lonovavir]

Arguments about the real power of the Romulans aside they're more powerful than the Cardassians. IMO Gowron intended to attack the Romulans after acquiring the resources of the Cardassians or started the war to distract the Klingon populace from internal problems, it's a politically motivated war with no real military purpose.

[@KnightRaymund]

I'm with sfdebris on the hair thing. Why would it matter if he looked like some other character? Most people don't radically change their appearance between roles. If people recognized him, that seems like a good thing. And most wouldn't have a clue who he was or what that show was. I think it was how much more intimidating he can look with the bald head and goatee.

[@vesuvanprincess]

I too love the root beer scene. To me it showcases the inherant weakness of the Starfleet point of view: If all cultures are to be respected and embraced, but one of those cultures idealogicaly is opposed to your own culture, both can't simultaneously get along. For example, the Klingons value warfare while the Federation wants peace. What happens when there is nobody left who hasn't joined the Federation or been conquered? The two sides must turn on each other, there core philosophies demand it. And so, whatever the Federation itself believes about respecting all cultures, the end result must be hegemony or those many view points would tear it apart internally. Quark here is seeing this. The Federation doesn't even believe in money. The Ferangi value it to the exclusion of all else. They can't truly coexist and so to join the Federation will inevitably lead to the death f their culture as they know it. This is just evil from their perspective. And yet, the longer they're around it, the superior their culture feels. Your brother becomes more like them, your mother radicalizes, your nephew even joins them! And worse still, deep down, you like it too. So ultimately, the scene is true from either the happy bubbly perspective or the cloying insidious one- and I love it! 😁

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

Question that involves spoilers: Bashir saves Odo here. It seems really out of place. Backloading, does it make sense to assume Bashir was already replaced here? I personally think so, but it’s really strangely framed.

[@earthhound]

I actually really hate this episode. The main reason being that it's the biggest case of 'that escalated quickly' in Sci Fi history. Captain Sisko sides with a WAR CRIMINAL over the Federation's strongest ally, sparking a war with them that would weaken both sides. He completely ignored that the Cardassians had a reckoning coming for what they did on Bajor and he was so paranoid that the Klingons would attack the Federation next (even though there are more preferable targets). The whole episode was written just to make the Klingons the bad guys again and to hit the reset button on Worf's arc.

[@Galvion1980]

I love the rootbeer scene...I hate rootbeer, though ;-) It tastes like cough syrup mixed with tons of sugar to me...

[@timriggins70]

I guess Martok changeling was a good actor or Drax and Martok weren't close since he never realized that his father had been replaced.

[@joluoto]

Don't spoil.

[@ieatvirgins]

@@joluoto Oh, come on, it's just a comment.

[@DerBeppone]

I don't buy for a second, that we would've peace without the Klingons. The power vacuum in that region probably would result in a much stronger Romulan Star Empire. And then we run into that small world problem. Theoretically other powers would also rise, as long as the Romulans would'nt have been rushed in before.

[@mr51406]

⭐️ Root beer: it was Shimerman and Robinson who insisted to play it that way, and Behr went along. Source : kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6CucqijhbqZetk Intro: Excellent visual, irritating audio. They just tacked on the percussion track instead of re-orchestrating, it’s obvious. Which means it’s literally off-beat. Chacun son goût: Jessie Gender likes the dissonance. I come from a family of purists: Dad was a percussionist in a symphony orchestra... (However it irritates me a LOT less than that verkakte Enterprise theme song...😜)

[@Judokasting]

The only thing I had not liked in this one, aside maybe from Sisko seemingly doing a few weird things that make no sense tactically or politically, was the forced antagonistic interaction with Odo. This felt like they had an idea in mind, but this went nowhere, but just felt wrong.

[@jebes909090]

Hey arch, they just dropped the trailer for vampire the mascarade bloodlines 2!!!!!!!

[@dr.strangelove6118]

i cant wait till you get to review pale of the moonlight 5 years from now

[@captmoroni]

An hour long. Automatic like.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

having watched this again... Historically, I find the Klingons behavior here somewhat reminiscent of the action of the Goths under the reign of Theodosius.... stamping it's decision and will on the other members of the alliance (or the empire which "employs them" as was in original case) I feel Sisko here acted in a very Klingon like fashion, that is, responded with unwavering force & a showy stubbornness of character to a clear challenge to federations command of this theater/operation... if the Klingons had succeeded, it would have effectively been a coup de tête of the central-command/admiralty &/or diplomatic core. that is if the Klingons could be seen to wage war of their own volition (more so, using Starfleet associated facilities) without coordinating an agreement with the others, The federation looses its ability to negotiate the terms of peace... in fact, once it is clear it cannot control it's allies, it, kind of, loses it's entity as a political unit able to keep faith. becoming a minion of the will of the now dominant Klingon empire....

[@mikedench1110]

The title of this is misleading. I thought I'd be seeing at least some clips that justified the title 'The Way of the Warrior'. NOT an hour of ruminations from a talking head! I'm not complaining about your interesting points of view, just that the title led me to expect some DS9 clips. PS:- I apologize, this is the first Ruminations I've seen so I wasn't aware of your producing these as a regular feature. I shall search out some more now I understand what to expect

[@rmsgrey]

Yeah, Lore used to use clips, but, well, Paramount... copyright... KZbin... If you've been paying attention online over the last half decade or so, you should be able to fill in the gaps there.

[@1987jock]

You bring dishounour to your House.

[@JimBob_Joe77]

Hey guy... You should thinkk about wearing a stocking cap or something if you're gonna insist on doing your episode reviews outside while its snowing. Just a heads up. I dont want you catching a cold. ;)

[@AlucardNoir]

You are right, TNG isn't better then TOS, it's far, far better.

[@random_eskimo_in_the_rockies]

Your analysis of DS9 is superb. This tells me you really know the Sci-Fi television industry in a top notch fashion. Your inability to understand why the Klingons may NOT stop and search civilian ships tells me you know little about politics.

[@johnashley327]

Captain Yates looks good. They are always hooking Sisko up with some fine women.

[@johnashley327]

This is when I really start paying attention to Deep Space Nine.

[@NoelleMar]

I recently rewatched parts of this episode, so I have a lot to say! First off, I’m unsubscribing because you didn’t remember the tricorder name. XD LOVE Martok, I’m actually reading a book about him right now lol. Though… obviously he’s a little rough around the edges in this episode… Does anybody NOT like Martok, as a character? I also noticed this time around that the loudest, most obnoxious and aggressive Klingon is Martok’s SON. Come on, man. I did notice that the characters who ACTUALLY stick around tend to show up sometime in season four. Regarding backloading, I recently watched “Duet” again, perhaps the most powerful episode of Star Trek I’ve seen. I noticed some serious foreshadowing when they discussed Cardassia having to face its crimes and needing a certain kind of Cardassian to actually “save” Cardassia. (I’m keeping it vague here.) I’m thinking of starting Next Gen, but I’m nervous lol. I’ve seen a lot of episodes but mostly when I was younger, and I love Deep Space Nine so much, which seems to be a deconstruction of TNG, to an extent. But it would be fun to start from the beginning and watch your reviews along the way!

[@dylanlewis5113]

I prefer the Season 4-7 intro.

[@aredub1847]

oh you really are that guy arent you.

[@MissTea_Trekkie]

Hairstyle 😂😂😂 aka, no hair!

[@EnvisionerWill]

I tend to confuse the Root Beer Scene with a different Quark scene in DS9, where he's talking specifically about humans, rather than about the Federation (though there's obviously a HUGE overlap there). I'm trying really hard to focus on only the RBS itself here, and come up with what I think about it. The intense bitterness that Quark displays really resonates with me; I think he views the Federation's M.O. as being fundamentally insane, and is sickened by the idea that their way seems to work so unstoppably. It's somewhat similar to the way I'm disgusted by the success of Western Capitalism in today's world, when there are so many obvious and seemingly unforgivable negative aspects to the way it operates. You sort of can't believe what you're seeing, and yet it's obvious that this thing you think shouldn't work at all, instead works so unstoppably that you can sit there hating it, and yet find yourself getting fast-talked into cooperating and actually becoming part of this system that you're so deeply troubled by. I don't know if that's what ISB had in mind as a reason to question the Federation's goodness, but it certainly feels like what I would have been thinking, if I had written that scene. (Then, of course, if I take a step back from the symbolism, I'm also inclined to just nitpick the fact that there's more than one formula for Root Beer; if what Quark is serving tastes similar to A&W, then maybe a cup of Barq's or IBC or 1919 might have been more to Garak's taste. But that's just one of the obvious holes in Star Trek's worldbuilding that we just aren't supposed to think too hard about.)

[@kelaEQ2]

To the whole unwarranted search thing...Is Sisko saying that Bajor does not have a Customs office on DS9? Or anywhere before they get to Bajor itself? She was coming from outside Bajor Space...they where just "helping" their Ally with customs enforcement.

[@dereckaddie408]

Mark of shame? I'm shamed as well and don't see it.

[@rpra6435]

If I ever have motivation, I will write it correctly, for now I will say only briefly - namely - this episode is extremely idiotic if you try to take the so-called Star Trek canon seriously or if you try to take individual episodes seriously. The whole plot of this episode makes no sense. However, this is something similar to the movie Star Trek VIII First Contact - a great action movie with an idiotic storyline. (That's why, unlike most, I don't like Star Trek VIII) When our beloved Lorerunner will finally start to analize Star Gate SG-1 we will all see how much better is SG-1 cannon with much less amount of "problems".