Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S3E26: The Adversary

[@johnashley327]

Sisko finally promoted to Captain.

[@johnashley327]

So this is when Odo accidentally kills a founder.

[@zephyr8072]

Sisko after being briefed on Omega particles: "Have you tried shooting them?"

[@lightsabermetrics]

Props for the reference to Screen Rant's fabulous Pitch Meeting videos! Also, I cannot give you enough props for your repeated props to Ron Jones. I'm no musician, but when I was 12 years old I had attended the only Star Trek convention I had ever attended. While I was there, I found a CD soundtrack to The Best of Both Worlds. I bought it (rather, my uncle bought it for me, but whatevs), and that was the moment that got me into movie and television scores. I agree that one of the dumbest mistakes that Rick Berman ever made during his tenure of running Star Trek was firing Ron Jones. I have never understood why music should only be "wallpaper" in a TV show or movie.

[@paulscott2037]

Yeahyeahyeah!

[@sharkdentures3247]

Can't say I am surprised LR is a fan of the Pitch Meetings too. With 'analysis mode' on, it is objectively awful. But I can't help to laugh at them & love it!

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

interesting how LowerDecks sort of does a similar thing to the chats discussed here with the guys in Trekyards and their subscriber base (I know I mention STLD way too often, but I can't help compare)

[@mb2000]

Ever noticed how the gold shirt that gets his head smashed against the bulkhead is the twin brother of the blue shirt on Voyager that gets eaten by the giant land eel? That’s one unlucky family! ;-) Blood tests - it didn’t take long for the changelings to get around the tests; the very next episode (Way of the Warrior) Martok does his own test with a knife... and he was a changeling the whole time!! Though obviously we don’t know that until Season 5.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

The test didn’t work *here!* Changeling Bashir faked out Eddington with ease.

[@NoelleMar]

I laughed aloud when you first mentioned Rick Berman... that guy...

[@allamaraine8066]

As did I. 😂

[@LostMercenary99]

The Visitor is the DS9 episode with the best musical score. Just listening to it nearly brings me to tears.

[@JS-wp4gs]

'you don't get to be a captain wearing a gold uniform' ....except for that episode where he was ordered to sabotage the cloaking device by an admiral....wearing a gold uniform

[@paulscott2037]

I think he meant captain as in Captain of a starship or given a command post. Just like in real life militaries I'm pretty sure it was possible for gold shirts to rank up as say ground forces and that's how you get gold shirted Admirals. I'd assume it's the same as with blue shirts and they can also become captains or Admirals. If you wear command colours it basically means you do a bit of everything which is why they are the most prominent in command roles because you need to know a bit of everything if you want to command a starship. But if you remain in a highly specialised field you retain a blue or gold shirt and continue to rank up. It just means you most likely won't get the prestigious commands like captaining a starship out on the final frontier

[@alexyoon-sungcucina7895]

Said it before and will say it again- DS9 music that resonates? "Come to Quark's, Quark's is fun!"

[@iBloodxHunter]

Don't walk, run!

[@BleydTorvall]

I feel like the reason the changeling didn't just "win" was because that wasn't its objective. I think it was sent to gather information on the Federation and Starfleet. Specifically, to determine how Starfleet personnel would react to a changeling infiltrator. How long would it take them to notice? What kinds of things would tip them off? How would they react? What would their response be? How would it impact their interactions? How would they go about identifying the infiltrator? What countermeasures would they attempt? All very important questions to answer before attempting to a major infiltration of Starfleet and the Federation. And of course, once the information was gathered, the crew would need to be disposed of to prevent anyone from warning the Federation before the infiltrators were in place, but tit would need the crew alive until then to get the most data possible. It would probably have worked too, except that the changeling never anticipated that Odo would harm it.

[@Tuvok_Shakur]

The true strength of the federation is...... Root Beer

[@captmoroni]

22:13 General Chang said of the Federation: “They have successfully knitted together countless worlds, plundered their resources, assimilated their technologies, and absorbed their wealth. That is their strength, but also their greatest weakness. Their size is difficult to defend, their resources scattered across time and space, their political system unwieldy. These races came into Federation not naturally through conquest, but through diplomacy. This last is the key, for it renders the Federation a brittle unity.”

[@MissTea_Trekkie]

I love this episode! It is like Conspiracy on TNG, but they follow up on the warning that trouble is on the horizon!

[@allennfla420]

Thank you for all the hard work!

[@wratched]

I'm a bit surprised you didn't mention Babylon 5 in your discussion of string continuity. I am pretty damn sure that viewers' reaction to Babylon 5 had a massive impact on the writers' thoughts on how to carry the show forward.

[@vesuvanprincess]

It's definitely a strategy in my mind. I think it's to teach them to fear one another. Given the later 2 parter, where the changeling sits down to talk with Cisco at the end and asks how many he thought was on Earth... It just makes sense they are revealing themselves on purpose to sow discord and fear- they want the word to get out. They need people to know they are there, ironically, to be most effective at destabilizing the Federation.

[@francoislacombe9071]

This episode is basically a less horror oriented version of John Carpenter's The Thing, complete with perfect shape shifter, paranoia induced mistrust, confined setting and blood test. 😉

[@allamaraine8066]

Exactly what I was thinking watching the episode! Anytime a show does a riff on The Thing, they have my attention.

[@NoelleMar]

I also screamed at your final quote haha. Somehow, so effective!

[@athrunzala6919]

I got that, getting that is TIGHT!

[@elenarossi8398]

I´m retty sure it was established in the Pilot that Kira is the first officer?

[@johnforbes8282]

Just a thought they are trying to catch a changeling and split into teams of 2 so that one of them could be jumped by the changeling one on one, why didn't they split into teams of 3 to sweep the ship.

[@NoelleMar]

Having some technical issues, so I’m going to comment as I watch-hopefully that’s not too annoying. LOVE your comparison of the Borg and Dominion. It seems that shapeshifters have a near telepathic ability when it comes to observation and imitation. As they say, they “become” whatever it is they change into. I would say that the Borg are existentially terrifying because they don’t just destroy you, they use your body *and mind* for their own purposes. Not that you say anything to contradict this. But the two powers are an interesting comparison because the Dominion is so much subtler, whereas the Borg are essentially a monster. The dominion is very recognizable to us humans who are familiar with empires and conquering. But they are massive, inexhaustible, and relentless. On top of that, as you say about the shapeshifters-they are “magic.” It’s uncomfortable (in a good way) how paranoid the founders are about being hated and feared by solids since their very nature IS terrifying to many of us, as Quark later days.

[@paulscott2037]

I've often wondered why Odo and Kira were on the ride along too. I can only guess that since DS9 and by extension Bajor was apparently so close to the Tzenkthi border that the Bajoran government decided they should go along to observe too.

[@nathanschultz5538]

My guess is that Berman was concerned because the show was syndicated and still not a network show. Selling a serialized series may have been more difficult.

[@paulscott2037]

This is highly likely.

[@quasimodojdls]

Then why wasn't Voyager ever allowed to become serialized? Weren't they the flagship show of the UPN network?

[@newfontherock]

The Siege of whatever number it is, pretty sure it's hummable.

[@Bojack727]

I've revisited both TNG and DS9 over the years and more recently, and of the music post Ron Jones, it's like whenever I think something along the lines of "wow, that music was really effective" or "wow, the soundtrack in that one scene made it EVEN more impactful", I go check the composer credit... And so far, it's either Jay Chattaway (a man I think doesn't get enough credit) or someone else- like Paul Baillargeon, who I previously mentioned scored the amazing DS9 episode "The Siege of Ar-558". I really am trying to come up with *something* positive (at least better than indifferent) about Dennis McCarthy's musical contributions, I *really* am... But nothing has stood out to me so far.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

Welcome: to the Dominion Cold War.

[@Ravix0fFourHorn]

with all the Senior staff on the Defiant who is looking after DS9? Odo and Kira shouldnt even be there, its just strange to me.

[@TroyeMB]

Lore, Maybe it's a good thing that you're "insignificant"? (your term, not mine) -- at least that means that those of us who follow you (well, most of us at least) don't get lost in the "noise" of the crowd, and we can actually "talk" with you... (comment @ 9:32) The changeling fostered far more distrust amongst the team (messing with the team loyalty) by "playing with them"... If it had "disappeared" too quickly, the team would have thought they'd defeated it, or at least stymied it (however temporarily) -- but its "playing" made them more doubtful -- every time one member of the team was out of sight, they became suspect... (Which is very efficient of the changeling -- it didn't have to actually assume the forms of the others in FACT -- the doubts it fostered did much of its work for it...) (comment @ 29:45) *giggle* -- see I told you... (comment @ 33:22) Odo rolled a 1 on perception (he had a Mathias (Jonathan? Michael?) moment and hit the door frame -- sorry, I'm watching Other Dust right now and I just watched that episode)... (comment @ 33:40) --- so... for once, rather than just pausing the video and talking to the screen, I thought I'd share my thoughts with you as I went through -- to make it more of a "discussion" -- after all, "Star Trek is awesome! Let's discuss..." (PlatyMcBear)

[@Lorerunner]

And here I thought no one watched the Other Dust stuff! (also I'm telling you, arrogance... friggin' Founders)

[@TroyeMB]

oh, @@Lorerunner , I'm quite addicted to Other Dust... (but I can't watch the stuff live via Gwydo's Twitch because of the vid settings...) is this Thursday an Other Dust week via your channel???

[@Lorerunner]

This thursday is Other Dust, yes.

[@earlwatt7677]

Two problems with the blood theory. One, the blood would die, and two, the blood would read DNA of the creature it was. So, only human to human. The changeling would have to have blood from multiple species and keep them all alive.

[@newfontherock]

I'd like to see a "Pitch Meeting" for DS9. It'd be barely in an inconvenience.

[@Davlen]

There is a new Doc coming out about DS9. Should be out soon.

[@athrunzala6919]

An Okay episode to watch. Why wasn't he a Captain the whole time before now? If Changlings are "A drop in the ocean and the ocean becomes a drop" thing, then why would blood revert to Founder goo instead of remaining blood? Their physiology seems advanced enough for drops to hold form as well and probably grow into new Founders one day if taken care of and trained the way Odo was.

[@Archanea]

I wonder if the reason Berman was so adamant against serialized storytelling, is because it's harder to sell that kind of show for syndication? Business getting in the way of story telling like always.

[@MF-yt6to]

All of questions have simple answers, the Federation and Starfleet is Lawful Nice to Lawful stupid. The Federation is so idealistic and pacifistic, even with 'combat training'. They just can't comprehend when to use it.

[@danielkubin3878]

Lorerunner would you rather send on mission Oberth class ? xD. Beside that, Tzenkheti homeworld is according "oficial" star map right next to Bajor and next to Cardassian Union. Sisko is probably responsible for that sector so, it could be explanation. Good thinking was, that he should check this situation with Tzenkheti with..for example Starfleet intelligence which could have better info than some " ambassador".

[@nickokona6849]

I always felt that the Tzenkethi were this episodes Legarans from TNG Sarek. They don’t matter. But they matter to Sisko, but also, because plot. They didn’t want to use the more obvious Klingons (though, I think that would have made perfect sense), and they were mostly keeping the Romulan out of DS9. It just always felt like a fairly meaningless plot point. It, for me, felt like how TNG alluded to the Border Wars to bring in the Cardassians, but for this one, they just said, nah. I think this episode really establishes the idea that the Dominion actually behaves in some wats very much like the Russian Federation does. The Russians are described as experts in the idea of reflexive control. Basically introducing a stimuli to both train their opponents reaction, but also, to provoke specific reactions that tong obviously point to fulfilling a Russian objective. That’s basically the Founders MO in the series.

[@quasimodojdls]

How could they introduce the Tzenkethi into lore and yet never show them? Seriously, huh?! They introduce an Alpha Quadrant power that is capable of waging war with the Federation itself (so therefore, MUST, be an important player on the political scene - akin to the Cardassians, a.k.a. a formidable and important but not-quite-A-list player) and yet we never see them? That and Sisko never once confirming his orders to go on this mission are the only flaws I have, however. I'm not and never have been a member of the military but even I know that confirmation of orders is "a thing". Sometimes I think that Trek writers' only exposure to military stories are 1.) previous episodes of Trek or 2.) Hollywood depictions of the military. It's a shame that actual military logic never seems to reach the writer's room door. 8/10

[@AdamCollings]

Yeah, it kinda bothered me, when I first watched this one, that we had this new race that had fought a war with the Federation, that we'd never heard of before.

[@mattthericker]

"Take from your hole..."

[@davidkoritan1692]

If Sisko isn't a variable, wouldn't that make him a constant? (Sorry, bad programming joke.)

[@TheMarcHicks]

Damn it, Deep Space Nine was brilliant......but could have been so much better without executive meddling-& especially no Rick Berman.

[@paulscott2037]

The first 3 seasons certainly. But I think it fit just the right note from 4 onwards between serialization and individual episodes.

[@AkoramericaBlogspot]

On average, I don't like total serialized show. Usually devolve into Soaps or have tons of filler episodes. Also less structured in their story telling. Startrek is basically philosophy essays. You don't want an essay that drags on

[@connormccloy9399]

How do you feel about the Xindi arc?