Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S6E21: The Reckoning

[@AlcomIsst]

"...why is it always a beam battle?" What would the alternative be? Kira and Jake manifest prophet-stands and rapidly punch each other for an hour? (That would be amazing!) I get the sense that to the prophets, Kai Winn doesn't or shouldn't exist. They ignore her entire existence, and the prophecy doesn't take her into account and ultimately fails. Prophet-Kira is taken entirely by surprise. Was that deliberate? Was Winn engineered by the Pah-Wraiths to be completely invisible to the prophets? To rewrite history, or rewrite reality to the prophet's timeless perspective. (I semantic-satiated the word 'prophet')

[@sharkdentures3247]

I give props to two things here; The actress who plays Kai Winn is AWESOME! So wonderfully HATEABLE! Now that's talent! And Nana Visitor's scenes. Particularly when Kira verbally smacks down Winn! She does NOT hold back!

[@tbk2010]

When was Winn not a villain? Her faith and patriotism were mostly contingent on their public recognition. She loved the bajoran people only for the reverence they gave back. You can criticise the writers for making her (and Dukat) clearly evil, but at least in this episode it seems consistent with what we know about her.

[@Arbbal]

She may not have been a straight up villain, but she was at least certainly antagonistic since her first appearance. The switch from plan antagonist to straight up villain wasn't any sort of stretch for me, I viewed it as her finally showing her true colors.

[@glennwilliams2950]

Why is she a Villan now? It's only because you are looking at her through kira's and Lore's eyes. Nothing she did this episode is villainous unless you infer evilness upon her.

[@thedragondemands5186]

Well you see, the writers decided to shift focus from the Tangible to the Intangible.

[@ProfessorTerrible]

The first time or two that I watched through DS9 I wondered why the Prophets gave Winn the silent treatment so consistently. But watching the rumination just now it made me think of a verse in the Bible, Matthew 7:21-23. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" The Bajoran faith obviously isn't a direct analogue for Christianity, it has a lot of obvious influences. However, I wonder if their treatment of Winn is simply a case of knowing that she isn't sincere in her character or beliefs, and the prophets do seem to respond to sincerity. If so, then she is effectively a stranger to them, no matter how she presents herself. She doesn't act from faith. When this thought occurred to me I wondered about the fact that it seems to contradict one notable interaction of the prophets... Quark and Zek. But it really doesn't, because Quark and Zek may not be believers in the prophets, but they are true ferengi, in a way they are even sincere in their deceitfulness.

[@redpillfreedom6692]

Indeed Quark and Zek are both greedy and schemers, but neither is pretending to be something they aren't. Quark has never given a pretense being a virtuous person, not by human standards anyway.

[@jmiester25]

I think the term you were looking for is “false equivalency.”

[@self-transforming_machine-elf]

there's a bit of a strawman fallacy to it as well, methinks

[@rebeccaw6253]

i second the False Equivalency term...and anyone watching who doesn’t know the term Look It Up cuz it is used very often in political commentary (on podcast/politicians/and your relative at thanksgiving)

[@Afterburner215]

It really sounds that Deep Space 9 lucked itself into having a coherent plot line rather than intentionally.

[@tbk2010]

And it it's probably the only show where that ever really worked.

[@williamozier918]

Basically whenever Rick Berman wasn't paying attention they would write good episodes, and those episodes added up to a good show.

[@thedragondemands5186]

Timm I’m still bitter about how Ron Moore basically did the same thing for Battlestar Galactica, but it didn’t work at all, but he was honestly surprised at the backlash: “what? It’s what ds9 did” - yeah but 1, it was problematic even on ds9, 2, even ds9 did it better

[@vaskylark]

This episode was wild and fun. Shows me that the writers are creative and fun and not afraid to take chances. I really love this episode. It was great for Kira in that her love and faith paid off and was recognized by the Prophets. Showed the Kai as the super villian she is and gave depth to Sisko and even Jake. The earth quake tremors was from the unstable wormhole because the prophets and pah wraiths were warring. That's what I always assumed anyway. I'm a woman though and I seem to love most of the episodes that you hate lol

[@Edax_Royeaux]

This is just what Star Trek needed, angels fighting demons and Gul Dukat shooting ancient Bajoran laser beams out of his eyes. I'm so glad the show just told us what true evil is, it's very reassuring.

[@mandelbrot5]

Don't take this the wrong way Lore, but I wish I had found your channel about 6 months from now. Then I could I could binge all the DS9 and TNG Ruminations.

[@grantlloyd9131]

23:25 - I've always thought she just panicked.

[@DJonScott]

I think Kai Winn stopped the fight because the Pah Wraiths were influencing her. They knew they were losing, they knew that Jake knew they had to be destroyed, and they needed a way out. It wouldn't surprise me if in that moment, Kai Winn had what from her perspective seemed a legitimate attack of conscience. I think for a moment she actually feared for Jake's safety, because the Pah Wraiths needed her to. And I think they had future plans for her when they did.

[@williamozier918]

I appreciate your positivist view of Winn. However for sake of fun discussion I would like to discontend: Winn's position is summed up perfectly, and completely when she mentioned the Reckoning would bring about the end of the need for Vediks, no need for Emmisaries, and no need for a Kai. That's why she stopped the Reckoning.

[@Spartanj42]

Man you guys are all so jaded. I always greatly enjoyed this episode and it holds up.

[@KertaDrake]

That energy battle out of context could mess with a person's head considering what was on TV in that era. Next time on Dragon Ball DS9!

[@thomaswalsh5848]

At least the Pah Wraiths didn't know the Kaioken technique.

[@ohgoditshimrun1346]

Two things. First, I believe that Kai Winn prematurely ended the battle simply because she was afraid of two things; that it would destroy the station while she was on it, and that the Prophets who had just brushed her off without any care at all would not be waiting with open arms if she died that day. And second, I believe that the reason why the Prophets had never spoken to her before is because they always "remembered" what she would do this day. Because she would not have faith in The Reckoning, the Prophets had no faith in her.

[@ricknbacker5626]

I wondered if Kira would have died. As you noted, Good was prevailing. By intervening, Kai Winn may very well have. inadvertently, saved the life of her constant thorn in the side, Major Kira.

[@FreihEitner]

Is Winn "evil" or just ambitious and using faith as an excuse for her actions?

[@Infernal460]

5:23 Fire Caves.

[@williamozier918]

The Prophets didn't create the Prophecy because they knew Sisko would smash the tablet at just the right time; Being a hothead and a sore loser, Sisko smashed the tablet at coincidentally just the right time, the Prophest remembered this and one day told it to another Linear being using an orb., it was neither their fault nor intention that Linear Being was in the past relevant to Sisko's actions, and wrote it down millenia before Sisko was even born.

[@AdamCollings]

I like the Pah Wraiths, and I like the spiritual plot. But this episode always fell a bit flat for me. But I really like your observation about how Jake is no longer an outsider regarding this stuff.

[@marginbuu212]

Why did they have to take the tablet? Couldn't they have just imaged it with a holographic imager? Or, you know, taken a picture of it?

[@maisiesummers42]

I always wondered if the Prophets deliberately ignored Winn because they knew how selfish she was, and decided to use her as their pawn in their battle to destroy the Pah Wraiths. Like they were always watching her, and from time to time gave her a nudge to make her more of an antagonist.

[@ecarlm]

Kai Winn acts like someone who is trying to do something to be of some importance (like a politician). First she wanted to communicate directly with the prophets and tried to brush aside Sisko (just to feel important). When she failed communicating to the prophets (likely because they recognized her political motives), then she organized a public prayer vigil. It was all about image. I don’t think she ever considered the actual impact or implications of what was occurring. When the public vigil failed she was about to leave the station and like a politician make up a story about what she did.....But then she saw another opportunity and just decided at the end that as Kai those two things weren’t enough of an image booster. She had to make the prophets recognize her by doing something (even if it was destructive). She says “May the prophets forgive me” which means she knew she was doing it for herself. It wasn’t about sisko or the station. Just her political ego and the need for her to have done something that mattered and not be cast aside like a footnote in a history book on this day....

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

I think the only reason Kai-Winn is alive is because Sisko chose to send Kira to tell Winn she is an idiot... have a feeling if he had come in person, he might have just wrung her neck

[@mr51406]

Winn, like Dukat, aren’t “evil.” They’re just petty, pretentious, mediocre, bitter, jealous and angry. If chance places them in a position of power, they’ll do even the nastiest, meanest, even “evil” things to stay on top. Being deprived of power would mean having to face their mediocrity and that makes them scared and desperate. They may even accept losing once. But if they do by chance rise again, they won’t accept defeat a 2nd time. A non-controversial example would be Napoleon.

[@paulscott2037]

I have never seen Winn as a villain or evil in this episode. Actually I think this is one of the few episodes that redeems Winn, which is ironic because the fact that she stopped the battle at the end is probably the reason why the Pah'Wraiths became interested by her in season 7 and realised that she did not have true faith in the prophets. But otherwise she acts exactly as I would expect someone to act if they were representing their people, because we know that she does not completely accept Sisko as the Emissary. He takes an artefact from Bajor unilaterally. I can completely understand why she'd be miffed about that from a Bajoran perspective. She even tries to give Sisko an out by asking if the prophets toldhim to take it and it's only after he said no and asked her to take it on faith that she lodged a protest with Starfleet. The next scene you see her in she is bringing up the climate changes on Bajor and yes she makes an assumption that it is because the tablet was taken by Sisko but it is a reasonable assumption and I think the fact that Shakaar agrees with her in writing tells us that she is not the only one who thinks so. And Sisko responds by being actually kind of obnoxious like "oh wow you and Shakaar agree on something? What did you tell him to make that happen?". Admittedly the conversation she has with Kira does show that she enjoyed getting one up on Sisko but that's just Winn, as in "she likes to..." Then he smashes the tablet... well it's kind of understandable why that wouldn't go down well and I don't blame her honestly. When the reckoning begins that is when I think she actually finds her faith in the prophets because she gets to see them first hand. And she acts like a true religious leader for the first time. Now the reason why Winn stopped the battle is the real question. Kira's assumption is that it's because she couldn't stand the thought of a human having greater faith in the prophets than her and that may well be true but I don't think that was what made her take the definitive choice to go up to ops. In her own mind at least I think she thought she was making a moral choice. Because she had no idea what would happen any more than anyone else so she made a pragmatic option of saving Kira and the Siskos and the station because so far that was what had been keeping Bajor safe, as much as she didn't like it.

[@phillipdando9006]

I think you hit on something here: trying to ignore what we know later, she does have faith when prophet-Kira is revealed. In her head: All this time spent going through the motions finally is going to pay off. She’s been a loyal follower of the prophets even when she didn’t believe and now here they are. Surely they will shower her with praise for her faith and she will become even more powerful and influential because The prophets will reward her and... nothing. No word, no thanks, Not even a look in her direction. No damn acknowledgment. That does it. She would rather have the influence and power that she does as the spiritual leader of Bajor than take a chance at being ignored, being a nobody in the possible post-Reconing world. How DARE the prophets ignore her: the Kai!! They didn’t show any physical influence before, so she’s not afraid of any real punishment as a result.

[@glennwilliams2950]

Thank you. Lore loves the nazi Gul dukat but says Winn is the worst villan? It's insane.

[@Helyyx]

Kai Winn basically just called Sisko, the Emissary of the profits, Hitler... I know we don't like being political here, but I know some of us do engage in politics, just take note of that scene and how serious that is, and how much of a jack-ass Adami is for saying that. Being I grew up a lot on star Trek (TNG and onward) I do take some morality from the show. So when, IRL, we call people something horrible like that, make sure it's well deserved first and not just your bias/opinion talking.

[@bbbbKeJodddd]

The term you were looking for is false equivalency.

[@Spartanj42]

Win wanted to have political leverage with Sisko for saving his son's life.

[@jeffborowiak8992]

I thought that was weird that you forgot about that episode.

[@KnightRaymund]

The Pah-wraiths and making it a good vs evil thing was a mistake. Sisko's mom thing was an even bigger mistake. The war stuff was great. This faith stuff, not so much.

[@athrunzala6919]

I just watched this one last night, and I thought to myself, 'I've already vooted on my skip list' Things didn't get good til the final act, it was all predictable (except for breaking the artifact) I've often wondered how the actors feel when they're portraying the prophets in the vision, cause just the weird wooden performance they have have to give is so different from anything, only possessed Kira was a prophet worth watching. And of course the same pedantic happenings from POPE RATCHED, I love that she's just Ratched basically every time we see her She was just jealous basically

[@Infernal460]

Producer: So 15 days what could go wrong.

[@iBloodxHunter]

Your clone could become self aware and attempt to flee instead of giving you his brain tissue?

[@DerBeppone]

I do Enjoy my shonen Anime Ki-beam struggle! Wait... this is Star Trek? Huh.

[@videogenics86]

I think Sisko and Dax are reading too much into Sisko having to talk the Prophets into "saving" Bajor. He really didn't, he talked them into saving the FEDERATION. This episode strongly suggests that Winn has never had an orb experience, which is something that everyday Bajorians have, good grief, Shakar and Kira get RELATIONSHIP advice through an orb experience and the Prophets can't even acknowledge Winn's exsistance? No wonder she'd be bitter about that. And it is constently thrown in her face that this non believer, this non Bajorians is the Emissary just really sticks in her craw. Which brings me to Starfleet, I would think they would be comfortable with the title of Emissary cause he IS effectively the Federation Ambassador to the Prophets, which brings me to Dax's complete disrespect of the Prophets. The Prophets are the proper name of their species, imagine if anyone in Starfleet referred to the Tholians and the crystalline aliens or Vulcans as the green blooded aliens? It's very disrespectful of her to refer to beings who at THIS point are effectively war time ALLIES as wormhole aliens.

[@terrathelunatic]

No the problem is that Sisko is the Emissary not TO the Prophets but OF the Prophets. To Federation Admirals, they didnt like the fact that Sisko was simultaneously the Captain of the most important post in the galaxy, and working for an alien race they dont know anything about.

[@francoislacombe9071]

How did Kai Winn manage to reach such a high rank in the Bajoran clerge if she never had any support or even contact from the prophets? 🤔

[@aredub1847]

Go look at real life religion.

[@AunCollective]

How do certain politicians get elected when nobody admits to supporting them or their policies?

[@geoffreycannon2197]

Francois Lacombe even in the real world, the ability to play politics-to convince the followers of a religion that you are their gods' voice-can be as much a talent as anything. To convince them that to publicly object to you is to invite their own destruction... In short, you don't have to convince them all; you just have to convince a few that are extremely passionate.

[@tbk2010]

Such a thing is very rare. She's a skilled politician, and that's probably the only requirement there ever was. Also, I think the position of "Kai" is something the bajoran people made up to begin with, not something the prophets actually cared about.

[@francoislacombe9071]

I understand how that happens in other religions, but Bajor's religion is different, its deities are real, the Prophet orbs are actual, if somewhat cryptic, means to communicate with them, and people like Kai Opaka would have known that Winn was faking it. I find it bizarre that she could have achieved such a high position under those circumstances.

[@jeffborowiak8992]

Beam battle? Like in Dragon ball z?

[@Eelco_de_Boer]

Summary: The discovery of a 30,000 year old Bajoran tablet buried under the holy city of B'hala announces the Reckoning, the time when the future of Bajor will be decided. This leads to a battle on the promenade between a representative of the Prophets, who took over Mayor Kira's body, and a Pah'Wraith, an evil counterpart who took over somebody else's body! (Pfff...)