STAR TREK Logical Thinking #59 - Moving the Goalposts

[@asvarien]

Moving the goal posts, a favoured tactic of petty managers everywhere.

[@paineoftheworld]

And the E4 Mafia. I was not here, I did not say this.

[@rsacchi100]

It's a good tactic. It takes time for subordinates to figure out results will never be good enough. Superiors will be pleased with the superior results. Ensign Chekov could learn from Lt. Commander Scott who beat the system.

[@thelaughinghyenas8465]

@@rsacchi100 , When it fails though, it fails BIG time. Everyone just gives up.

[@Shorty_Lickens]

I see it with major fascists everywhere, not so much petty managers.

[@thelaughinghyenas8465]

@@Shorty_Lickens , I see it with petty managers who want to become big managers and think they are the greatest. Usually, they are incompetent. Moving goals is an axiomatic no-no of Agile project methodology. I would research Fascism and the Fascism movement. This isn't a correct usage of Il Duce's political movement. I have seen more goal moving in the US Army than any place else, actually.

[@BradiKal61]

I needed to see an increase in the number of these episodes.

[@CHDanhauser]

I'm working on it. I plan to release a new episode next year.

[@aquariandawn4750]

Can we just imagine for a moment how wonderful it would be if after we corrected people they would say "yes I need to rethink my actions"?

[@jamesstutz6907]

Yeah more Star Trek. The Enterprise is a work of art.

[@CHDanhauser]

Thank you and I agree!

[@Potemkin1711]

My wife says this happens all the time in her line of work, but it's not always management but their customers who keep increasing their expectations when their first criteria are met.

[@roberthofmann8403]

Thank you, Mr. Spock, for enlightening the crew and the audience at home with your logic.

[@CHDanhauser]

You are very welcome!

[@jasontoddman7265]

And also for defending an officer who lacked the means to simply tell Mr. Sulu to get lost because of his lower rank. This is about the least sympathetic scene I have ever seen Sulu be a part of (excluding his Mirror Universe version).

[@vaughanjones5933]

How does a person come up with an idea for this sort of youtube content? This content is worthy.

[@CHDanhauser]

Why thank you! It is not always easy coming up with examples of these fallacies that fit with the Enterprise crew.

[@OGSontar]

This is probably the most common fallacy used in arguments. Most folks, however, don't react with understanding the way Sulu did when this is pointed out to them.

[@jacklarson6281]

yes, because it is typically narcissists who employ this tactic. and a narc cannot accept that they might be wrong.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

Sulu understands that Spock can nerve pinch him.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

A very common fallacy, well worth highlighting

[@CHDanhauser]

Thank you!

[@gr8oone007]

Spock will enlogic this crew of emotional humans if he has to beat that logic into them!

[@notpc48]

"Two weeks to flatten the curve." 🙄

[@jamiefoyers2800]

Makes logical sense to me that there needs to be more of these little nuggets of common sense being broadcasted...

[@CHDanhauser]

Thank you! I'm glad you are enjoying them!

[@aaronatherton7431]

Great lesson! Love the background!

[@CHDanhauser]

Thanks so much! I'm working on an Ice Planet location for Sulu and Chekov's fallaceous chats.

[@aaronatherton7431]

@@CHDanhauser So the next Sulu And Chekov conversation will be on Fallacious? Will they be wearing parkas or forcefield?

[@Baldmaxx]

It's going to be a great Friday evening now! I love these episodes. Thanks for all the effort in making them.

[@CHDanhauser]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@bentonmarcum8924]

​@@CHDanhauser isn't he employing a logical fallacy.? Whether or not Friday will be great is independent of whether he enjoyed this episode or not.

[@Xanthro2]

Thank you.

[@CHDanhauser]

You're welcome!

[@jasontoddman7265]

This is the closest I have ever seen Sulu acting like a prat.

[@lawrencemanning]

Dang I wish you’d just make a actual episodes. 😊

[@DeconvertedMan]

he made one :)

[@lawrencemanning]

@@DeconvertedMan oh yeah! Lol

[@thecaptain6730]

He has made four actually of various lengths. “The Element of Surprise,” “The Quintain,” “And Let the Heavens Fall,” and “Ptolemy Wept.” All Excellent!

[@DeconvertedMan]

@@thecaptain6730 oh! I only knew about the Scotty one because Scotty rocks and needs more screen time. :D

[@CHDanhauser]

Why thank you, @thecaptain6730! I'm working on new stories as we speak. One should be ready by 2024.

[@jongilbertson2106]

Oh God! Here he comes again!

[@mattproctor4333]

Love these! So awesome!!!!

[@CHDanhauser]

Glad you like them!

[@gwgux]

Interesting. I've seen this done many times, but didn't know it was defined as a logical fallacy.

[@jacklarson6281]

"Mr. Sulu..., you will spend the rest of the week in the Agonizer!!"

[@tetsujin_144]

I feel like this one wasn't really about the rhetorical tactic of changing the goal posts, Sulu was changing his demands but he wasn't really using it as the basis of an argument... But I love the whole concept of Spock actually applying logical principles instead of just talking about logic, and running around correcting everyone on their applications of logic. Also I really hope there's one on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

[@karlc2869]

Nice to see a TAS depiction of Chekov had Filmation included Walter Koenig.

[@CHDanhauser]

Thanks! I wanted him to interact with Sulu as they worked together at the Helm/Navigation console all the time. Chekov also appears in almost all Mirror-universe Logic Lessons.

[@karlc2869]

@@CHDanhauser Yup.

[@balrighty3523]

Sorry, but I think this only barely captures the essence of moving the goalposts. It qualifies in the most technical sense, but there are other dynamics at play in this scenario. Namely, Sulu is Chekov's superior officer and is allowed to change his mind and decide to require a superior navigation course whenever he wants (assuming his own superiors don't overrule him in turn). He still marginally exhibits the fallacy in how he phrased his new orders, but given that that could be addressed simply by Sulu phrasing it as "Yes, Chekov, that is correct, but I've since decided I don't want to risk more than four spatial anomalies, so we'll need a revision to your revision", I don't believe this was the best example.

[@Jr-qo4ls]

TOS Spock should have had dialogue like this.

[@jonathanmyers2867]

Great animation, Curt! Are you planning to upload new episodes of Star Trek Animated Series fan film on your channel?

[@thecaptain6730]

Yes, Curt, please!!!

[@thelaughinghyenas8465]

That would be logical.

[@CHDanhauser]

Thank you and yes. Next year should see the release of a new TAS episode.

[@okbruh]

And Spock doesn't even consider the emotional implications of this fallacy for those who suffer it.

[@kingbeauregard]

I don't know, it doesn't feel like this captures moving the goalposts. I'd imagine something more like: S: Romulans are completely cowardly. C: I don't know about that; those Romulans in "Balance of Terror" [which I was not in] fought bravely. Their commander was tired of war, but even he wasn't afraid to fight. S: But they use a cloaking device! They won't fight unless they have an unfair advantage! See that? Chekov refuted the original premise pretty successfully, so Sulu shifted to a different claim without admitting that he was wrong.

[@CHDanhauser]

My example wasn't the best but it was an example of changing the rules of the game slightly to make the other person wrong. Your example was of the technique of changing to a different argument after your first argument failed. Yours is not a fallacy.

[@answerman9933]

What was the fallacy of "moving the goalpost" called before goalposts existed?

[@aquariandawn4750]

Moving the goal

[@wtk6069]

Personally, I've never liked this term because the only time goalposts are actually moved in football is after a big win when fans storm the field to tear them down in celebration. When I hear it, I have flashbacks to driving past a college dorm that had a piece of goalpost in the yard in the 90s.

[@Noonien96-nx6yj]

Spock's time would be better spent figuring out how they wound up in Oregon, rather than pointing out logical fallacies by the crewmen.

[@DeconvertedMan]

This video would be correct if ....

[@r0bw00d]

I'll return in three years. Perhaps by then your lazy ass will have finally finished the thought.

[@r0bw00d]

All of the religious apologetics people need to see this.

[@aquariandawn4750]

I was thinking the same about abortionists and Hamas supporters

[@Jr-qo4ls]

All the various contradictory self delusional belief systems that go by the protected name of religions are irrational and illogical and harmful to varying degrees to both individuals and societies.