Star Wars Legion 2nd Edition??

[@lordnovas]

The weight of unsold Shatterpoint is Shattering shelves. Every dad thought it. This dad said it.

[@dakotamike]

Going back farther, what killed me was FF releasing Legion shortly after Imperial Assault. I went all-in on Imperial Assault, and then they released Legion (which appealed to me greatly) but at a larger minis scale. None of my Imperial Assault minis would fit in with Legion minis. I spent hours and hours on the IA minis, and I wasn't prepared to paint squads of Stormtroopers all over again. Killed both games for me. Whereas if they had released them at the same scale, I would have been all in on Legion.

[@johnduval760]

You guys obviously have direct insight to the product and how people in your area are responding to it. The game has a strong community with passionate content creators and fairly active tournaments. Hopefully, the recently unveiled rosdmap and rule changes point to more frequent releases and renewed interest.

[@JbTexan-od7wx]

“Can they both co-exist”- instant headache

[@JMACCSArmiesOfMiddleEarth]

Love these vids great insight

[@matthewtaylor-h6q]

I’ve only played legion a few times. My brother has a good amount of it, but hasn’t played very much in the last two years or so. I can’t see a new addition, especially if it’s mainly based on new sculpts pulling him back into it and I think you’re absolutely right, that shadow point is eating the same pie that Legion wants to eat and doing a better job but even that is not going gangbusters it would seem at least in my area

[@star_wars_miniatures]

The models are beautiful but not a fan of the game system!

[@marekskyrim]

We have a big community of Star War Legion at the local club, quite active too. But indeed, I don't really see them buying again "new" stormtroopers or confederation droids. Even for painting : how many different schemes of Stormtroopers can you really do, in the end ? It's not like there are really blue ones, pink ones and so on...Card packs, I can totally see them buying. But a game can't be successful just by buying rules and card packs...We saw what happened with X-Wing too.

[@danielc-s8056]

We're in a recession, of course sales are down. Tat said, the critique here is very real.

[@vaderkoshpaints]

Sorry to hear it’s not doing well. I still buy just about everything they release for Legion. Just picked up the Clone Commandos and The Bad Batch. I plan on picking up the new plastics versions when they are released.

[@And-c7n]

Licencing and Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game - What are your thoughts on this product as its from Games Workshop

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

I'll try to do a video on this topic soon. Thanks!

[@And-c7n]

​@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905Thanks for considering. This came to me as an outlier - or maybe it's not from a shop perspective.

[@MuskokaEnjoyer]

I wonder if being able to dip into the extended universe / Old Republic would have allowed for more flexibility and a deeper reserve of future models. It might have helped fix some of the problems faced by Star Wars model-based war gaming.

[@nathand6467]

I think the licensing issue, isnt an issue for this game, due to the fact popular shows are still coming out. I think the game designers need to get closer with Disney to get models for the new shows out within a few months, and not a year or so. Bad Batch Mini's came out 2 weeks ago, the show has been out for 3 years and just finished. Theres still characters from trilogy they could make (No Old Ben for example, Only Han is based on Endor Battle, nothing from the first 2 yet). TLDR: Theres lots of popular characters they can still draw on.

[@bradp6452]

What has got me is that all these star wars games are similar in scale but not the same. Imperial Assault, Legion, Shatterpoint going like 28 to 32 to 36.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Utter madness. They want you to have 46 Luke skywalkers

[@bradp6452]

@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 I picked up Legion like a year ago as I was so annoyed by the scale change from Imperial assault I ignored the game for a few years. Mainly got into it since my son in a huge clone fan.

[@bassistcz]

Great video

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Thanks for watching :)

[@ghostmutton]

Atomic Mass recently did their Ministravaganza and showed off a slew of new models. It briefly reinvigorated my interest in the game, until I looked at their roadmap and the stuff I was most excited for was scheduled for 2026. I think you hit the nail on the head; SW Legion just took way too long to release new stuff, and it's been that way for 2 years now.

[@pug1184]

I agree that mixing scales can be an issue. I think GW found that with Inquisitor. (Eventually resulting in the Inq 28 and Inquisamunda communities.) And I imagine it might suffer from the edition effect that x-wing. (Too many components etc to replace.)

[@willhavelin796]

I feel like the refresh/new edition would work better if they had everything ready now. I have a painted legion army that I've never gotten around to playing. The refresh could be a good opportunity for me to try the game, but it feels like a hassle if the new cards and stuff won't be ready for like a year

[@ultimentra]

I have alot to say on this, Legion used to be really hot in my friend group and the larger community of my city 2-3 years ago. It died in the past year, and it's pretty simple. AMG have not been good stewards of that game. The rules changes were bad, the changes to organized play were bad, the way that large events and coverage were handled was bad, the model releases were fantastic but the rules were just all over the dang place. It killed the enthusiasm, and AMG/Asmodee stopped advertising it. Past 2 years I should have been seeing ads for star wars legion on star wars websites, star wars fan sites, youtube, amazon, etc. I never did. Incompetence killed legion, pretty simple there. The sculptors at FFG and AMG did an amazing job, and the original stewards of the game at FFG did great, but the rules and management team at AMG have just been incompetent, and the worst part is that I could tell they just did not care in their streams. It was bad, they knew it, and they didn't care.

[@star_wars_miniatures]

Yea I’ve noticed that too since it changed companies 😢 it was FFG’s baby from the start and I wished they stayed with it

[@timunderbakke8756]

If I could make an observation, I noticed you said things tanked right after the Shadow Collective box. That was also when FFG lost the game and AMG gained it. AMG is a poison pill who only struck it big with one limited shelf life game (Marvel crisis) and they ran every Star Wars game they inherited into the ground because they didn’t understand jack about the design philosophy. I will never purchase a game from AMG nor will I purchase a game by the developers who are on the AMG payroll (including if they move to another studio)

[@michaelfurlanic3505]

AMG seems to transmute any property they gain control of into a rendition of Crisis Protocol.

[@bryanvestal3923]

@timunderbakke8756 That's x privateer staff for ya. I mean they ran that game into the ground. Why not star wars?

[@timunderbakke8756]

@@bryanvestal3923once is bad luck. Twice is incompetence. I didn’t play their privateer game but I see now that it wasn’t just a fluke they murdered their game.

[@USALibertarian]

A lot of game companies seem to be doing their level best to destroy the hobby.

[@GaddisGaming]

There are Facebook groups where people are still playing West End games. 25 mm Star Wars war game. Still buying the Miniatures in metal, painting them and playing. I've been to conventions where people have put on entire weekend shows using those miniatures. I've been using the Star Wars Legion Miniatures to play other games. I just wish they had done them in 28 mm and not 32 because I have a ton of terrain and I could have used my imperial assault Miniatures with them. I'm not buying into Shadow point because it's a scale creep. I'm not buying Stormtroopers in three different scales. Even if I had the shatter point rules I would just use the legion Miniatures with it doesn't make any sense to me

[@star_wars_miniatures]

We still have a decent community playing Star Wars miniatures from WOTC 😊 best Star Wars table top game ever released in my opinion. The miniatures are no longer produced any more making them rare and expensive to get hold of, but the model range is incredibly large! 😅

[@GaddisGaming]

Also, there's so many sci-fi rule sets I can use my clone and droid armies with. I really enjoy building and painting the miniatures. I just hate all the tokens that come with Star Wars Legion.

[@nathand6467]

Super interesting perspective. I'm a Legion fan and player, and I do think you're correct, Shatterpoint eats into the player base a little. I know, I own a few Shatterpoint kits, but I'm not going to actively play both or buy new releases of both. I'm surprised that NO stores in your area have a community, but it does seem like the kind of game that shouldnt be at every store. Seems like it wouldnt be worth every stores time, but it would be worth it, if only 1 in 3 or 1 in 5 stores carry it. One store support Legion, one support ASOIAF, one support Bolt Action kind of thing. I don't think the licensing issue prevents this game from being strong and growing, but I think they need to have a way to have their releases come out while the new show is relevant, Bad Batch came out after the series finally, and the models were based of the first season. Din Jarin was released 2 and a half years after the shows first season. I imagine it would sell better, if you guys had it on your shelves during the height of the shows run. I'm a former customer of yours (moved, no longer live in the GTA), didnt realize you put out videos, will check out again.

[@glimmer_twin]

In terms of being limited by an IP, how do historicals make it work? It’s not like you can invent a new red army tank to sell people

[@dwarrenmsp]

I used to play Legion, but realized that large scale wargames weren't my thing. I waited to see if they would release "Star Wars Kill Team" and they never did. They then released Shatterpoint and I thought, THIS IS IT! It was not it. I sold my Shatterpoint. I still hope they do someday and I've kept my painted Empire. I know they've showed Spec Ops, but it's not there yet. Maybe one day, or maybe it'll just go away and I'll have my painted Empire that I'm proud of.

[@michaelthebarbarian5527]

Spec ops is downloadable on the AMG website, along with all the army stats etc for it. It’s no longer just a beta document cdn.svc.asmodee.net/production-amgcom/uploads/2024/07/Spec-Ops_v1.1.pdf

[@reubenmccallum3350]

Star Wars is a great game that deserve more, but the dopamine machine of the GW fomo machine cannibalises it. There's things I like and think are cool but like Mr T at the mall, I always think "I could buy it later". I wish them the best but I can't see myself buying another storm trooper or clone.

[@star_wars_miniatures]

What does GW have to do with legion? 🤔

[@reubenmccallum3350]

​@@star_wars_miniatures because wargamers don't all exclusively play one game? Chances are, most Legion players also play a GW game. That means Star Wars Legion is competing with GW for hobbyists' dollars and time. Everyone has limited amounts of both, and if GW is more successful at capturing gamers' attention then it presents a problem for Star Wars.

[@star_wars_miniatures]

@@reubenmccallum3350 yea that’s actually incredibly true!! GW are incredibly good at doing that!

[@r31n0ut]

They did just publish a roadmap for future releases. are they just going to pull the plug halfway through?

[@bryanvestal3923]

Oh yeah my local shops have it . However it doesn't sell and neither does shatterpoint.

[@Icarus_789]

at my lgs they are mostly sold out of legion, but shatter point has been just sitting there. The star wars legion at my lgs is going well, regular leagues and tournaments. mixed feelings on this new edition. As for me personally i haven't purchased more as i still have a bunch to finish painting

[@paulmurphy5376]

Shatterpoint and Legion don't target the same people, other than "the set of people who like star wars", they were created by two different companies and design teams with differing goals. I don't think Kill Team targets the same people as 40k for example, and I'm referring to people who actually PLAY Kill Team, not 40K players who buy it to put into a 40K army. So just like KT and 40K have different subset of the markets, so do Legion and Shatterpoint, they overlap a little, but not a lot. The thing KT has going for it is that both games (KT and 40K) were created by the same company and KT is designed to draw people to 40K. Shatterpoint is a totally different animal, it was made by an entirely different company (at the time) that essentially would have been competing with FFG and Legion for Star Wars gaming market share, except that Asmodee bought them both and their parent company moved all the Star Wars wargaming over to AMG. AMG can't handle the workload and so Legion releases suffered. Long run, I think Shatterpoint has no longevity and is kept alive soley by consumers who will buy anything Star Wars. Legion has a future because it has many more active players and a community around it. The people who ask "Is [Legion] dead?" almost certainly don't play Legion, and probably don't even like it that much. The reason they think its dead is because you probably don't run any events for it at your store, and you don't try to teach people the game, or promote it in any way. Legion is really quite active at my local game store, and in Southern Ontario in general. My local game store are having events that attract a decent amount of people (18 players at my stores most recent event). We have built a community for the game by regularly playing it, the store regularly hosts and runs events for the game (Star Wars game night, monthly competitive events). You can't just buy a bunch of Legion product and expect a community and player-base to magically materialize at your store. It does with GW and MtG because those communities don't require any effort on your part, they are huge *already built* communities and you can just pull some existing players out of them to play at your store and buy product from you.

[@RyanGates-kq9tu]

I definitely think they waited too long, the shop i work at its pretty dead, everything has been out of stock. Even if i get someone interested, what do i sell them...nothing, its out of stock. Unfortunately because i genuinely love the game, i play it but i feel 2nd edition was unnecessary and also its on shaky ground and we have to wait almost another year for new starting products, i think legion is one step away from the grave. I also hope they prove me wrong, i love the game personally.

[@photonfartsqueeze6694]

Don’t buy games from stores? The stuff is all over the internet. Down with stores, form gaming clubs.

[@nathand6467]

This does seem weird how, many shops arnt selling it because its not popular, but even shops willing to sell it can't get some kits. So people wanting to get into it have an easier time going to Amazon or general online. Which in turn doenst help because if its not on shelves, and being set up on a table in the store, how does anyone know it exists.

[@voice_of_terra7228]

People have checked out of SW. The Disney era of Star Wars being a complete trainwreck is what killed the games. Wasted potential of sequel trilogy, expanded OT/PT universe and even Old/High republic stuff.

[@danielc-s8056]

I don't spend money on franchises that don't want me as a fan. It's a pretty simple equation.

[@star_wars_miniatures]

The way legion was released was weird to me! Still waiting for some of my favourite models and characters to come out 😅 been a while now

[@itsallfunandgames723]

I don't think it was that amazing of a game (even though it was based on a pretty amazing game), but I did buy a decent collection because of big sales and I can still make use of/collect Star Wars miniatures. I'm also now thinking I was bamboozled at the idea that the Prequels were popular enough to sell a tabletop game, and all the content I saw continuing for Star Wars Legion after they went to the Prequels was just about superfans embracing more of the game, whatever it was, and survivorship bias for the minority of people who care to play in the Prequel setting. Also I remember thinking $25 for four Wookies was too much a few years ago, and now it's like seven Range Troopers for $50, and I don't even have to think about that, I'm not paying $50.

[@bentaylor9775]

Aren’t they changing all the models into hard plastic though? Surely they wouldn’t do that if they thought the game was dead?

[@AaronSmith-t6r]

What wargames other than warhammer are worth playing/spending money on?

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

Any wargame that you like and have a friend or two to play with? Unless you are completely reliant on playing at a store or club for your games, there's a world of options out there.

[@cadiastands8]

I heard a rumor recently online that Legion was AMG’s best selling game. Not sure if that’s true or not. I mostly play MCP, but I do buy a bit of Legion with the expectation of learning to play it someday. But I’m a pretty casual Star Wars fan, and all the extended universe and animated stuff isn’t really my cup of tea. I only recognize stuff from the first two trilogies, don’t know what a lot of this stuff from the cartoons is. I’m sure it’s good, but I don’t really have the bandwidth to get invested. Give me Dengar and Jabba and his criminal empire, and I’ll drop cash.

[@Rsma77]

I think its too little too late. The hardcore and current fans will continue to play but plenty of old heads will leave because 'they changed x' or whatever and it doesn't have the churn of new players to replace the old heads. Also that they refuse to call it a new edition means they won't even get that brief New Edition bump even smaller games sometimes get. They released their 'roadmap' of releases for 2 years and it just looks sad. Like no one is expecting GW output but its sad like 2 new kits every quarter.

[@johnb.2107]

Legion has been doing fine though, so not sure where the information on it is not doing well is coming from. The Legion Worlds Tournament last year was close to 300 players, and the ICv2 rankings for top non-collectable miniatures game for early 2023 had Legion at the number 5 spot. Other than gut feeling, or it not doing well in your store... where is the data coming from that saying people aren't playing or the game isn't growing? The amount of players for Legion is absolutely growing, while it dropped out of the top 5 spot for Fall 2023, the game is selling well. While there are issues with how the new ruleset has been rolled out, Legion is not a struggling game.

[@earnestwanderer2471]

I’m sure I’m repeating myself but... if the product isn’t in the FLGS, I’m almost certainly not interested. The last thing I ordered online was some rereleased Commissar models that were make to order from GW. Two years ago maybe? I look at my hobby purchases as paying rent for the space I use to play the games. So, unless the minis are amazing, the rules are outstanding and the books and models are available from the FLGS, I wouldn’t even think about anything Star Wars related.

[@Peaty1992]

Started wargaming again back in 2022 with Legion, moved to MESBG. Legion just wasn't exciting and the models were cheaper but constant QA misses on all the starting boxes.

[@tragicthegarnering3619]

I was a i will start both a sob army if we get plastic sisters and a eldar army if we get new guardian. I did both times though started the eldar for 10th and have no interest in 40k at the moment. Mostly interested in imperlalis and old world.

[@samlarson3908]

I'm definitely in the never Shatterpoint group. If AMG truly kills Legion, I have no interest in their other games.

[@bernhardeisl7382]

I think it is quite unfortunate that they went down the cardboard thingies rout again. It would be better if they created a simple app and print to play documents instead. Easier to adjust the cards and such. I sorted all my cards beautifully, but now 75% are "obsolete" i am not salty rly, but it is still a hurdle for potential new players. Also don't hate in my boy crab droid haha. Either way I really want a SW wargame to succeed, but the trust in the company is pretty low, but hey if they kill it i will just buy what I am missing and play with homebrew rules :D

[@bernhardeisl7382]

My local store has a full shelf btw :)

[@iceniwargames6347]

The legion revamp has been handled so poorly. Firstly they have released it like an FAQ when its huge changes to the game and clearly a new version. Secondly the unit cards and upgrades have all changed, but the card packs aren't going to be available to buy until Q1 2026! Then they release weird models like the crab droid, half seen in the background of 1 shot, but stuff thats been asked for ages like mace windu or jango fett are nowhere to be seen (except shatterpoint!) They should have held off with the changes and just released them as part of a new starter set with the redone stormtroopers etc next year.

[@gamelover260]

IDK, it seems you guys tend to be a little hard on things that are not GW, while giving alot of grace to GW.

[@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905]

We preface these videos with context that matters - this is a retailers perspective. These small games are getting very hard to carry, that's an economic point - not a value judgement on liking or disliking any game. Hope that helps

[@gamelover260]

@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 I have been watching you guys alot since my friend recommended, and while you offer alot of insight, it does feel like you can be a little lenient on GW, such as ij this video you said it's not a good idea to release the same trooper in plastic and yiu are not sure many will buy them, but GW says the same.

[@star_wars_miniatures]

To be honest I wished Games workshop got their hands on Star Wars and made their version! I know it would never actually of happened because they’re currently still paying for the LOTR license and I doubt they’d take on two licenses at the same time! But I feel like they would have done a much better job than both the companies that have had legion

[@bryanvestal3923]

STAR WARS could be cool, but that ship has long past sailed. Thanks Disney for ruining the franchise.

[@photonfartsqueeze6694]

This is a really misinformed take. Were you at Adepticon? Did you see how many people were playing Shatterpoint? Barely anyone.The only game that had more players than Legion was 40k. What’s going on at your store is a poor representation of what is going on nationally. Rebuying minis. How many times has people rebought space marines? The space marines they sell are always exactly the same. You saying they are different is laughable at best. It’s part of the hobby.

[@timunderbakke8756]

All that Adepticon anecdote tells us is there are a lot of people who are serious about playing it competitively and willing to travel to do so. However, the competitive community makes up the tiniest segment of the gaming population. A better health check is “how many units are the local stores selling” or “how many people show up on local game night for this game”. And in my area, an area known for a healthy wargaming hobby scene, all the Star Wars stuff is dying.

[@travisskane5459]

Keep going: there's lots more to the story here and some poorly worded statements in the video. There are comments riffing off of incomplete information.

[@bryanvestal3923]

@photonfartsqueeze6694 Star Wars is dead . I mean I hate that it is, but Disney and mismanagement by AMG has killed it. To be honest it really wasn't that good of a game anyway. Way too much proprietary crap like dice and cards. Stupid shit just to clutter up a table. Of course that was FFGs fault.

[@timunderbakke8756]

@@bryanvestal3923I mean, that comes down to “would you rather have a book of record sheets or cards of record sheets.” I didn’t see anything too bad with the custom material aspect under ffg. It was the mismanagement since that murdered it

[@mogwaiman6048]

They did say in their market it isn't doing well and other store owners in their area concur with them. Space Marines also can be modified and changed while Storm Troopers can't.