Star Wars Will Never Be as Good as You Remember | A Star Wars Video Essay

Star Wars remains one of the most beloved -- and controversial -- film franchises in history. The sci-fi/fantasy movies have entertained -- and enraged -- generations.
So why is it that Star Wars fans can never seem to be satisfied? Does this have to do with Disney? With Kathleen Kennedy? Or is the problem more systemic and deeper?
Chapters:
0:00 Star Wars, Ruined Forever?
6:15 The Cycle of Star Wars Fandom
10:39 George Lucas, Disney, and Star Wars
14:10 The Old Star Wars Legends Canon
18:51 Star Wars Has Always Been Inconsistent
22:21 A Rant About Mandalorians
23:14 Modern Star Wars Fandom Has a KZbin Problem
25:20 Star Wars is an Idea
26:42 My Hot Take About The Last Jedi and Luke Skywalker
27:48 My Hot Take About Lightsaber Fights
29:33 The Fandom Needs to Chill Out About Harassing People
31:04 The Next Generation of Star Wars Fan

[@SaiyanHeretic]

Hey, you, reading the comments. Do yourself a favor and restart the video with "Pruit Igoe And Prophecies" from the Watchman Soundtrack queued up in another window. You're welcome.

[@agramuglia]

Seconded. If only KZbin didn't block videos for using music like that...

[@danielbloomquist9810]

Knowing the track and its use in Watchmen, I understood you immediately. Don't even need to do it to compare it to the perfection of Spencer & Burton as a complementary pair. Nicely done, Ser.

[@davidw.2791]

Also check out the KOYANNISQUASTI movie the music was first composed for. 🙏🏼 (Tho I do agree that putting it in that scene of Watchmen 2009 was a Kubrick-tier genius move.)

[@russellharrell2747]

This video is the YT version of that decades-old article that stated Star Wars fans love the idea of Star Wars but hate Star Wars media itself.

[@bonedaddy9563]

I think they just hate bad writing modern Star Wars could have been the best media around if they could manage to tell good stories

[@whaleping]

@@bonedaddy9563nah, it’s been pretty much all media after the originals. Only recently the Prequels are getting love.

[@williamdixon-gk2sk]

Sounds like how I feel about Christianity.

[@vaderkurt7848]

​@@williamdixon-gk2sk Catholicism is the true Christianity.

[@vaderkurt7848]

Star wars njo series still remains the best of what the fanchrise is able to offer.

[@lazymansload520]

Star Wars was ruined when it got one of the world’s largest fan bases

[@jesustovar2549]

This could be applied to a lot of franchises.

[@MilesDashing]

Star Wars appeals to the child in us all. Which is why the fans are so childish.

[@ComeOnIsSuchAJoy]

@@MilesDashing No, it's more because those now running Lucasfilm don't fundamentally understand what made SW so beloved in the first place (ditto those now in charge of Star Trek and Doctor Who).

[@sjdrifter72]

No it wasn't ruined by the large fanbase. In fact, if it wasn't for the fanbase, we would only had just one Star Wars film, there would have been no Empire Strikes Back or Return Of The Jedi and no Star Wars franchise, George Lucas would have just been another struggling director in Hollywood. Lucas was the one who ruined it with the cgi Special Editions and the mediocre Prequels. Disney on the other hand, totally killed Star Wars and are just milking the corpse dry at this point.

[@lazymansload520]

@@sjdrifter72 Star Wars appeals to people’s inner child. That’s why some of the people who whine about it some of the biggest babies I have ever seen. I had a disagreement with one and he called in a bomb threat to the school I worked at, so don’t try and tell me the modern Star Wars fan base doesn’t have an attitude problem. At least Lucas or Disney never threatened to kill me.

[@indianaCurtis]

1944: George Lucas is born in 33 years he'll write the screenplays that will become star wars.....at this time star wars is ruined forever! 😂😂😂

[@sem2412m]

😂

[@Tamlinearthly]

1976: George Lucas writes "Star Wars"; the 1999 short film "George Lucas In Love" is ruined forever.

[@ComeOnIsSuchAJoy]

Watching Star Wars for its acting and/or dialogue is like listening to '70s funk music for its lyrics. 🤷‍♂

[@Bionickpunk]

1913: George Walton Lucas Sr. is born, in 31 years his son George Lucas will be born...at this time Star Wars is ruined forever!

[@Teethmafia]

I can’t believe this video essay ruined starwars forever like that.

[@Gaia_BentosZX5]

The only way to cope is Star Wars Episode 1: Racer. Which is just F-Zero with a Star Wars skin. And Star Wars: Tie Fighter.

[@Teethmafia]

@@Gaia_BentosZX5 episode 1 racer was one of the first pc games I ever loved.

[@kpunk]

It is1428. Ashikaga Yoshimochi, the fourth shogun, was ill and the question of his succession arose. Ashikaga Yoshikazu, the 5th shogun, died of illness at the age of 19, so the 6th shogun was chosen from among Yoshimochi's four brothers, and to ensure fairness, a lottery was held. The sixth shogun was Ashikaga Yoshinori. However, he was not educated to be a shogun, and his temperamental and despotic behavior caused resentment. Akamatsu Mitsusuke assassinated him during the Kakitsu Rebellion. This led to instability in the Ashikaga shogunate system. The shogunate gradually lost influence and control over the daimyo. Thus, the Sengoku Jidai began.....ruining Star Wars

[@nont18411]

And that’s when Toranaga said “It’s Shogunin’ time!” And shogunned all over the places…ruining Star Wars forever.

[@Nonamearisto]

@@nont18411 Well, the rangers DID have the Shogunzords in season 3. :D

[@british_punk_1656]

​@@nont18411they shogooned indeed.

[@reybot5125]

@@nont18411 Ishido tried his best to stop him, but Crimson Sky ruined Star Wars forever!

[@travismatheson2884]

I am one of those Gen X'ers who grew up with the original trilogy, who pestered their parents to go and see it at the cinema (well, Return of the Jedi is the only one I clearly remember) but I had the movies on VHS. I was at Uni when Phantom Menace came out and most of my friends though the film was garbage. I didn't mind it, it wasn't the Star Wars I loved, but it was enough Star Wars for me to enjoy. It wasn't until I attended a midnight screening for Revenge of the Sith that I realised that this generation had a different view of Star Wars. Because I was a bit of a nerd I had an Emperor Palpatine robe and sitting in the front row. While we were waiting for midnight, a kid, 7 or 8 years old, in a Darth Vader costume ran up to me and knelt down in front of my and said "Your bidding master" (because he had clearly seen the original films) so in my best emperor voice I said "Rise, Lord Vader". The kid jumps up and runs to his father and is pointing to me. His dad came up to me after the film and said "Thank you for that, my son is so happy" That kid will be one of those who views the prequels to be the best Star Wars and I can't honestly say that it is wrong for him to think that. I might disagree, but I wasn't a 7 or 8 year old dressed as Darth Vader who met the Emperor at the cinema. But maybe I am not a true Star Wars fan because I can except that something i like does not mean it is objectively good.

[@KariIzumi1]

That kid story is so wholesome 🥰 But yeah, I'm one of the few who still refuses to rep for the prequels just because the sequels failed but I refuse to tell kids that it's not a good film or they can't enjoy it.

[@DWP102589]

It’s 1949, mythology scholar Joseph Campbell publishes his book on comparative mythology “The Hero With a Thousand Faces” where he argues for his “mono-myth” theory: that all myths across all human cultures follow a similar structure. This will inspire a promising experimental filmmaker to rework his many bizarre, creative, and outlandish sci-fi / fantasy ideas into this basic story structure. And so, Star Wars was ruined forever.

[@marveler8994]

Feeling like Marvel fans are becoming the new star wars fans, and thats coming from a guy who grew up with comic books and still likes the mcu

[@erikscottdebie7665]

Great video, per usual.

[@Mr.Starpop]

Same feeling here. I have to watch an MCU, in the back of my mind, all I'm thinking is "Someone hates this movie because of these five things"

[@Nonamearisto]

Star Wars declined slowly and with some brief periods of hope. Marvel's decline started out slow, but sped WAY up after 2021.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@Nonamearisto I'd say it's pretty accurate when considering how much now people are deifying the old MCU, citing how the first three phases were amazing because it was planned and had one consistent story while these days films are just spinning their wheels being more corporate endeavors. What they ignore is that the reality couldn't be farther from the truth. The MCU had NO plan whatsoever. It was being distributed by Paramount with the idea being that by making their own shared universe, Marvel could basically get the success of film series such as Sam Raimi's Spider-Man and Fox's X-Men while also seeing much, much more of the profits and having more direct control and we still ran into criticisms. People would call out certain films as feeling like plain filler even though their purpose is to be a good solo movie first and connect to the larger story second. I remember when just three movies after the first Avengers with the Thanos teaser people suddenly went "Okay what's going on with Thanos? Is this ever gonna go anywhere.". Thing is like Star Wars, those first three phases have basically gone down in history as a cultural event. You have people who can properly state they grew up with these movies now and are coming into it with everything laid out and are able to judge it as this one complete package but with that also comes nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses which brings along with it some light revisions to the history. We sweep under the rug that people were talking superhero fatigue as soon as we got past the first Avengers and act like now is when things got bad when really? I'd say it's more that people are just realizing that the long-running series which is gonna keep going basically is going the way of comics where unless the money truly dries up and the company just can't go on anymore? It's never gonna stop so you have to make a conscious choice. Are you willing to just move away from the series because the ride is growing stale and you're finding it's not working for you anymore or do you stick with it because it is?

[@fduranthesee]

or transformers fans they want HasTak to "stop redoing G1" but at the same time when HasTak does newshit, they whine because "it ain't GeeWunn enuff"

[@absoul112]

"Kids born when the Force Awakens came out are 9." Great now I feel old

[@rej3ktstudios986]

I’ve always maintained that Star Wars always thrives in the hands of multiple people. Star Wars has always been written by folks who aren’t George Lucas, Timothy Zahn, Micheal A Stackpole, John Jackson Miller, the clone wars writers team etc. I think it’s healthy to put this universe in the hands of multiple artists, hell a lot of my favourite stuff from SW Lucas probably never even glanced at! Hell nowadays I think I prefer Star Wars in cartoon form! The idea that a series like this can ever be permanently ruined is absurd to me. Folks are free to walk away at any time.

[@Bionickpunk]

Stuff like Visions, which is done by multiple different studios and creators, and where each episode is its own universe and story with a SW coat of paint, the sky is the limit with what you can write. Doesn't even need to be part of the main canon.

[@rga1605]

"The fans didn't know what they wanted", yes, that's the problem, in the end a lot of old successful stories were lightning in a bottle, we try to replicate the unreplicactable, and the people who least understand that are executives whose MBA training just rot their brains to anything that's not profit-maximizing.

[@KariIzumi1]

I'm reminded of the Henry Ford quote after his Model A came out: "If I had asked consumers what they wanted, they would've asked for faster horses." Studio bean counters have got to let creatives sell our Model A rather than pandering to consumers who think a faster horse exists.

[@batfreeze56]

I love Star Wars, but it's not a perfect series. Even the original films are flawed. To use Luke's word, the series has been deified, and is now expected to meet standards no media could possibly achieve.

[@TheVeritas1]

That's a fair assessment.

[@haileyshannon7548]

Remember when they said Star Wars was ruined because it turned out they were all related, than they introduced the Ewoks, than came the special editions, than the prequals. There has been tons of hate long before Disney

[@Tamlinearthly]

I remember when it was ruined after "Star Wars 2."

[@TheVeritas1]

@@Tamlinearthly As a kid, the only part of The Empire Strikes Back I disliked was Lando betraying Han Solo. However, by the time Return of the Jedi, I was older and better appreciated Lando's moral dilemma. So, it is possible to change your opinion on a Star Wars story.

[@jaydenc367]

difference is the sequels are hated on another level and it makes sense really.

[@Nzosaba_Matenge]

​@@jaydenc367 In twenty years someone is going to say the same thing about the next film installments

[@jaydenc367]

@@Nzosaba_Matenge I doubt it lmao.

[@fanguy99]

I’m a casual Star Wars fan, but I am a hard core Transformers fan. And on the Transformers wiki fan page, they have an article called “RUINED FOREVER” whenever the same happens to that franchise. Like Transformers earthspark is woke garbage; ie Transformers is ruined forever

[@tharetsku]

I grew up on transformers prime myself and haven't really watched anything other than that (except the Michael Bay movies, which I thought were fun, stupid, and filled with extremely good vfx) but I remember that show being fucking amazing I think my morality and personality got affected in a major way by transformers, especially optimus I'm quite a big star wars fan, and the series will always hold a special place in my heart, but I haven't really enjoyed anything new that's come out so I disconnected myself from it entirely, stickigg to what I like. But I still think it has been "ruined" for me, at least a little bit. For that reason, I kind of don't even want to see anything else about transformers, and just hold on to my dear memories of being a kid and waking up at 6am to watch some big ass car robots kick ass before school.

[@killer92173]

I grew up with the 1st BayVerse Transformers, but I immediately snapped out of it when I hated Revenge of the Fallen. I couldn't stand the characters, hated the fact that Optimus Prime is dead most of the film cuz now we are stuck with the awful characters, and the Final Battle was a big waste of time.

[@b.h.4249]

I couldn't agree more, every new piece of media for Transformers gets immediate hate with very little basis. It's baffling to me how hateful and emotional people can get over new parts of franchises that they are very free to ignore.

[@Nzosaba_Matenge]

The page for Earth starts with a timeline for the real world earth and opens by saying Transformers was ruined since the big bang

[@Keldroc]

I'm a hardcore fan of both, but learned early on as a TF fan that hardcore fans are a tiny, though loud, group. And the first part of being a hardcore fan of anything is to realize that you don't matter. To be popular, a brand has to appeal to more than just a handful of loud nerds. TF figured that out eventually. Star Wars always knew it.

[@zainmudassir2964]

Good video. Princess Weekes said it best "If the parallels of original star wars to Vietnam war were more obvious and US was meant to be the Evil Empire, I don't think most fans today would've liked it" I'm paraphrasing but Stars wars always had a reactionary fanbase terrified of change and challenging their beliefs

[@azradun3903]

For us in Poland, it was a literal new hope against the oppressive communist regime (the same one that also used the word "reactionary" to put innocent people in jail for political dissent).The Empire was the Polish Socialist Party.

[@paulinagabrys8874]

​@@azradun3903niby tak. To wszystko zależy od czasów i od kraju. Na przykład teraz to Rosja jest Imperium.

[@Nonamearisto]

I find that very hard to believe, seeing as how Star Wars changed Hollywood in the late 70s, the story is about growing up and changing, and Luke's beliefs are explicitly put to the best in the OT. We don't want things to never, ever change, nor do we want the same story retold over and over again with some wokeness thrown in. That's the "sequels" in a nutshell. What we actually want is for the story to grow in a logical manner which respects the past, not craps all over it. We want believable characters, not MaRey Sue Palpatines. We want consistency in the universe, not stagnation. Labeling us with bad names just because we don't like what Disney has done to our beloved franchise is just an attempt to whip us into obedience, not actually address the real problems Star Wars has.

[@HolyknightVader999]

Actually, most fans would've loved it. Then they'd write an EU story where the Rebels get squashed by the Empire after ROTJ once some new guy, preferably Thrawn, takes over the Empire.

[@rikk319]

@@Nonamearisto I think you're exemplifying the original poster. The guy who made this video pointed out this exact response--sure, the sequels have lackluster writing and direction, but Disney is a corporation in the business of turning a profit, so they reacted to the reactions of the prior two films when making Rise of Skywalker and tried to satisfy both ends of the spectrum, and failed spectacularly doing so. If you know anything about story craft, any narrative is expected to see the protagonist change and develop by the end. All plots must have a problem. The protagonist is supposed to be the one who solves the problem or has a major part in it. The problem must be solved by the end of the narrative. If you don't want things to never, ever change, you're professing your diametric opposition to the very basis of storytelling--that all stories are, at their core, a retelling of the journey through life itself, as life is change, from birth to death.

[@mmeloy90]

to my 11 year old nephew, Disney star wars is star wars. Star wars is and will always be a cyclical franchise with little foresight into the future from the fanbase.

[@UlrichTheOmega]

Hoo boy, that Star Wars ruined line has gone back as far as 1991 with the comic release of Dark Empire. (Talking about the novel & comic EU).

[@Gaia_BentosZX5]

Once again, Emplemon had the last laugh. Abandoned Star Wars when things got bad but in retrospect, he was one of the first youtube video essay people to get the memo. "Watch something else". That was the whole point of his Matrix: De-Booted video. He did the unthinkable. Instead of hate watching, he up and watched something else. If the media stinks, just opt out. And if you were a creator who can't opt out, wreck it and make the worst version of itself in hopes that outrage culture doesn't become a norm.

[@rikk319]

I agree. I can't describe how annoyed I get whenever I check out Star Wars content on KZbin, look at the comment section, and inevitably find some sequel-hater bringing up...THE SEQUEL FILMS. Honestly, if you hate them so much, why do you spend so much time talking about them? Especially when it's content that has nothing to do with the sequel trilogy...

[@sneezyrat6732]

Hbomberguy said it best when he simply referred to Star Wars as an "above-average fantasy series"

[@SirDanFilmsUnltd]

I’m personally fond of Gus Zagarella (We Are Not Alive)’s take in his video on live action Avatar series: “When you take one of the greatest shows ever made and you make a noticeably less good version, what you end up with isn’t one of the worst things ever. You get something slightly better than any Star Wars piece of media that’s ever been made.” Rather flippant, but it gave me a chuckle.

[@civilwarfare101]

@@SirDanFilmsUnltd Funny because Palpatine is a far, far, far better villain than Ozai ever dreamed of being. If you remove Iroh, Zuko, the fights, the world building, it's no more average than Star Wars is.

[@HolyknightVader999]

Funny, because the fantasy aspect of Star Wars is rather subdued compared to other sci-fi stories. If Star Wars cannot be science fiction, neither can Star Trek. A common man with some luck, homework, and prep time can kill every Force-user from chump Padawans to Palpatine himself; you cannot say the same thing about the Q.

[@lorcannagle]

@@HolyknightVader999 Star Wars is actually harder SF than Star Trek, because Trek has every fantasy element that Wars has, plus teleportation. Which is a good example of why trying to pigeonhole things into classifications is stupid.

[@rotationalshorts9104]

​@HolyknightVader999 how can he kill them, genuinely asking

[@JulioLenin88]

If they do more projects like Andor, I'll still be watching.

[@TheVeritas1]

That's the best attitude. Watch the shows or films that interest you, and ignore the rest.

[@ChrisDeebo]

Problem with that is a big chunk of SW fans STILL think Andor is bad & boring. Don't ask me how to convince these guys but basicially any part of SW with no Jedi/Sith tends to scare these folks

[@TheVeritas1]

@@ChrisDeebo Andor is a MAJOR shift from what you'd expect from Star Wars, which typically has Force users, lightsabers, fast paced action, humor, and memorable alien characters. So, I can understand where fans who think the show is "boring" or not "really Star Wars" are coming from. You saw the same thing happen with Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, which had a darker tone, more fallible Starfleet characters, and a space station setting. Naturally, the show was a hard sell to Trekkies who equate Star Trek to being about space exploration in a bright, utopian future.

[@datoneguy436]

I've never been afraid to say i love the Sequel Trilogy. In fact, The Last Jedi is my favorite Star Wars movie. The point you made about Luke losing control of his emotions in RotJ has been one of the things i always bring up when people say "the Luke who saved his dad wouldnt try to kill his nephew". Luke basically self trained after Yoda's death. No way the most emotional Skywalker taught himself not to let emotions get to him. He lost that hope, even if it was for a brief moment. Great video

[@JustinW332]

I grew up with the prequel trilogy, and I didn't like The Force Awakens, so I just decided I'd grown out of it and moved on to better things in my opinion. But I don't hate the new stuff. It's just not for me.

[@tino9117]

Man that sounds like the life

[@ArcherJLady]

I think we found the one star wars fan (or former fan I guess) with a healthy and mature mindset

[@KariIzumi1]

This is the way

[@9TxONE]

"Somehow, they ruined it forever...again."

[@thefearofg0ds758]

No one hates Star Wars more than a fan of Star Wars.

[@TrackZero]

The real tragedy is Star Wars fans thinking the 3D Clone Wars is the good version.

[@Bionickpunk]

People hyping the 2D Clones Wars against the 3D one is equally a tragedy. Both versions have their flaws.

[@PopxTartxThief]

Nah. I like both

[@exquisitecorpse4917]

I love Star Wars, but I don't classify myself as a "Star Wars fan" because the fandom spaces are some of the most toxic places on the internet (which is *really* saying something). Star Wars is by nature pulpy, frivolous, childish, and ridiculous...which is not to say that quality doesn't matter or that it's impossible to tell emotionally deep stories. But it is to say that Star Wars was never meant to be meticulously studied as a single, consistent, perfectly aligned universe. It's just not built that way; it's a series of campy folk tales in space, and - when one relaxes and allows it to be that - there is so much to love in Star Wars.

[@MetalSandman999]

When push comes to shove, no one thinks worse of Star Wars than the "all Star Wars is good Star Wars" crowd. Because it doesn't matter if the story is even internally inconsistence. It's just stupid space stuff. And of course, fans od it are just the worst, while you're better than them...

[@exquisitecorpse4917]

@@MetalSandman999 I don't think I'm "better" than folks who joylessly catalog every detail of every piece of lore, compare them to one another, and use consistency as a yard-stick for quality. But I definitely like Star Wars more than they do. Because I genuinely enjoy myself when I watch Star Wars. And, no, not everything with a Star Wars label is great. But these are movies. They're not about real people in real places, there is no real history here. Good fiction is not about meticulous detail; it's about compelling character drama. If you're interested in meticulous detail, I suggest archaeology - a discipline which is about the cataloging of material culture in the pursuit of factual truth. As opposed to fiction which is about emotional truth.

[@MetalSandman999]

@@exquisitecorpse4917 things like compelling character drama and emotional payoffs rely on the more wooden, technical aspects of storytelling. If lore established that things work a certain way, then for there to be stakes that cause the viewer to get emotionally invested, they need to be consistent with what was established. Stakes rely on cause and effect. Imagine a gritty, realistic war movie where it is all about the protagonist trying to rescue his true love. And when he gets to her, a stray bullet hits her and he has to try to get her to the medics. That would be very dramatic. But not if, in this gritty, realistic war film, he sets her down and pulls out a jar of magical healing potion and then she's fine. Because we have established that this takes place in our universe, where magic healing potions aren't a thing. So to pull that out of nowhere deflates all the drama of the story. Now we have no reason to think if she or the protagonist ate in danger that they won't just pull out another potion or something. A story can be fun and about fantasy and still be enjoyable when you think about the plot. You shouldn't have to turn your brain off. And it's not unreasonable to expect professional writers who get paid millions of dollars to be able to master things, like plot consistency, that a college senior finishing a minor in creative writing would be expected to do

[@exquisitecorpse4917]

@@MetalSandman999 Richard Walter - one of the most influential screenwriting academics in history - has a whole section of his screenwriting book dedicated to the idea that plot holes don't matter. Which is not to say that one should go out of their way to be inconsistent, but it is to say that the emotionality always comes first. The professional writers I've known value character arcs, story beats, plant and payoff, and other such common storycraft concepts. Worldbuilding is useful and good and fine....but worldbuilding is for almanacs. Film is for stories. And I guarantee you - as the daughter of a creative writing professor - that most creative writing professors are grading based on the strength of a story, the beauty of the prose, and the journey of the characters. Not the ability of the writer to be entirely internally consistent.

[@MetalSandman999]

@@exquisitecorpse4917 the idea that plotholes don't matter is dumb on its face. Academics are not all created equal. Especially in something like the humanities, where there are not as hard and fast criteria as the natural sciences, you're gonna get influences from postmodernism, as well as just some people who give spicy, edgelord takes in an attempt to stay relevant.

[@thatlemur6065]

Here is what I think. Star Wars was great because when it came out it was never done before. It was refreshing and new and for close to three decades it was copied by other properties in there own way. It’s because of this that it’s become so mythical in pop culture that it essentially blinded people in not realizing how actually basic it was when the prequels and the new trilogy came out. It’s like dragon ball. Revolutionary for its time but has been done to death now

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

And like Dragon Ball, it has over time been deified to the point where every new entry will always fight a losing battle because what people want is basically to relive the memories of their childhood which by default a new entry can't really do. So really, either you're willing to go along with the ride and enjoy for what it is or you choose ultimately to just step off and seek other things.

[@sneezyrat6732]

Dragon Ball is a surprisingly apt comparison

[@gamervet4760]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Then why did all the Star Wars fans say it was timeless? Guess they were just basic fools then.

[@Nonamearisto]

Star Wars can easily be great again. The problem is that woke idiots at Lucasfilm hate what the fans love. We're not impossible to please. We like some things in the Disney era: Mando 1 and 2, Rogue One, Andor (to an extent), and even most of the cartoons. The problem is that those are exceptions, not the rule, and almost everything since 2020 has been garbage. Even The Mandalorian was ruined in season 3. At this point, there's enough material out there to analyze and tell why fans like some things and not others. Kennedy and her fellow termites have no excuse not to know by now.

[@Tamlinearthly]

​@@sneezyrat6732Sure it'd been tried before, it was called "Flash Gordon."

[@scripturalcontexts]

This video illustrates a point that I have observed for many years: Star wars is not a fandom, it is a religion. And like many religions it unfortunately has many people who are fanatically obsessed with it and idolize it and will do anything to promote it or harm others in the name of it, namely bullying actors and screenwriters.

[@williamhowe1]

Star wars has been "ruined" so many times I lost count.

[@dontmindme1025]

Starwars died in 1574.

[@jesustovar2549]

They the same about cinema, it was ruined with sound, with color, wide screens, tv, home media, streaming and so on.

[@TheVeritas1]

@@jesustovar2549 True.

[@blixer8384]

Honestly… The Mandalorian is what ruined Star Wars for me. And I actually like the Mandalorian a lot. It’s just also proven to me that the Anti-fascist, anti-imperialist, and anti-war themes are for the most part set dressing. If Star Wars was serious about anti-Fascism, anti-imperialism, and anti-war the show The Mandalorian would have taken the Mandalorians to task as a culture. The Mandalorians are a warrior culture and the thing about warrior cultures is that unless you are a member of the Warrior Elite they fucking suck. They suck to live in and they suck to live around. The Clone Wars understood this: Mandalore was a wasteland even before the Empire nuked it. The Mandalorians themselves destroyed the planet with constant warfare. Death Watch weren’t noble warriors they were imperialistic bullies who terrorized, enslaved, and murdered defenseless civilians. We saw Bo-Katan fucking massacre a defenseless village whose women they had enslaved to perform the labor they saw as beneath them as the Warrior Elite. The Dominant political faction on Mandalor were the New Mandalorian who rejected the war mongering of their ancestors and embraced pacifism. But The Mandalorian is utterly unwilling to engage in such iconoclastic critique of the Mandalorian War culture and so instead rehabilitates that culture and in doing so rehabilitates Death Watch and it’s former members.

[@cash5512]

This is so spot on...

[@ItsTheFizz]

Intrinsically tying one's existential crisis to a science fiction franchise made for kids is a hell of a drug...

[@Sam-gn3gp]

Bionicle had kind of a similar origine, a guy with a brain tumor is ask by Lego in financial difficulty to came with a concept. Warriors who needs to fight a being that want take over the giant organism they are all part of.

[@waltsapartment-105]

You need to stop being the most sensible critic on KZbin.

[@miaththered]

This'll be a fun comments section. I've never read any of the books and I've never given a crap about them because of that. I've heard they're amazing, I've heard they're terrible. I shrugged and read The Lord of the Rings for the fiftieth time instead.

[@azradun3903]

Some of the books are actually good. Kudos for reading Lord of the Rings multiple times.

[@senior_sakuga]

Based

[@jesustovar2549]

Yeah I never read them either, honestly I never read any cómic book in my life, which is why I have a hard time connecting to superheroe films, with some exceptions, Superman: The Movie, Tim Burton's Batman, Sam Raimi's Spider-Man, The Dark Knight Trilogy, The Batman anr some of the initial films of the MCU. Btw, I just have the whole LOTR trilogy on PDF and I just rewatched Fellowship of the Ring on it's extended edition.

[@rikk319]

I've read Lord of the Rings 15 times now and I'm in my mid 50s. Lucas is no Tolkien, but the original Star Wars is as fun an adventure romp as you're going to find in film. Unfortunately, it was a victim of its own success. Much like Lord of the Rings was an astoundingly successful sequel to The Hobbit, The Empire Strikes Back was an astoundingly successful sequel to Star Wars. That, however, led to unrealistic expectations from fans going forward. While the next film, Return of the Jedi, was a good film, it wasn't an outstanding film like the first two, and thus the law of diminishing returns began. People's expectations about Star Wars have never been realistic. The first wasn't expected to be so good, the sequel wasn't expected to match the first, and the following films until the present have never matched up to those first two. Catching lightning in a bottle twice was already hitting the lottery as far as probability. As for myself, I haven't become a fan who has wrapped his life around any story, franchise, or series. Star Wars was meant to be fun, but there are too many fans who make it a central part of their life. Perhaps they're missing something more substantial that it takes the place of. For me, even the worst Star Wars films have been entertaining, and that puts them above many films I've seen that have been absolutely horrendous to watch. I think we, as Tolkien fans, were lucky that the Lord of the Ring films were made by someone who loved the book, too, much like the recent Dune films were made by someone who loves the Dune books. Star Wars, though, has been stretched out far longer than it was meant to be, primarily in the name of profit. Everything has to come to an end. In writing, a story isn't a story unless the problem in the plot is solved. This is much the reason why I stopped reading comic books when I was younger--they just go on and on, month after month, with no ending. I wanted a final resolution, but being vehicles to make money and not tell a satisfying story to it's conclusion, they're ultimately unsatisfying.

[@azradun3903]

@@rikk319 Though the Hobbit movies were bad. I am a Tolkien fan myself, having read Lord of the Rings 7 times, same as Silmarillion, and I consider those tomes the best written literature in history. But I was bored, bored when watching Hobbit movies in cinema. Some scenes were literally pointless, like that dragon chase and statue of a dwarf made from liquid metal. They took a 200+ pages children's book and added things that killed the pacing of the story. "This is much the reason why I stopped reading comic books when I was younger--they just go on and on, month after month, with no ending" very much so. Though, it is like with the Smurfs or other periodic seris - they never end as conflict resolution would change the setting.Though it got worse with the most horrible invention that is the Multiverse. Time travel could ruin stories, but Multiverse makes them completely irrelevant, as shown in Rick and Morty. Beloved character dies? Dire consequences? Just get a version from another parallel Earth and be done with it. Rick and Morty was fresh for one or two seasons but it got old fast. Even Mortal Kombat does Multiverse now, with disastrous consequences. Because with the Multiverse, there is no consequences. If everything exists at once, everything loses its meaning. Let's see if the next Tolkien series will use Multiverse. That is the only way they could top the sheer badness of Rings of Power.

[@calebmarmon1310]

I grew up on the OTs and it still boggles my mind that there are gatekeepers “protecting” the Prequels. Discovering there’s a reactionary “old guard” younger than you really puts things into perspective.

[@truteal]

Nothing will ever be as good as you remember it (realizing this is part of growing up)

[@MetalSandman999]

Some things are though. Some things are even better you're an adult and you catch references and clever twists and allusions to things that you didn't catch as a kid. Not everything ages like milk.

[@truteal]

@@MetalSandman999 I meant future products will never be as good as the stuff you first watched/grew up on (especially if you're a white heteronormative male)

[@MetalSandman999]

@@truteal a lot of adults, even white heteronormative ones, still really enjoy a lot of content that came put after they were kids. Yes, there isn't often the magic that was there. But a lot of people still like and even love new things and can recognize that, even without the childhood magic, this or that book/movie/TV show is fantastic.

[@sjdrifter72]

The Original Trilogy (and I mean the original theatrical cuts) will ALWAYS be as good as I remember them when I was a child growing up in the late 1970's and early 1980's. I despise what happened to the franchise after the Special Editions came out in 1997 and the terrible Prequels from 1999 to 2005. Don't get me started on the Disney garbage, because that is NOT Star Wars to me and will NEVER be!

[@MetalSandman999]

@@sjdrifter72 I tend to agree in large part. For me, Star Wars was never a major part of my childhood. I was aware of it. I saw some parodies of the OT in cartoons and stuff since Star Wars was ubiquotous, but I never saw the original, Empire, or Spisodes II-III until I was an adult. I saw return of the jedi and The Phantom Menace as a kid without context, and they were cool but not anything I even remembered. But once I saw the Ot and prequels, I always knew the former was better. Much better. Because George Lucas's career basically Benjamin Buttoned. The OT and prequels had the same kinds of flaws and same kinds of great things, but the good things were more pronounded in the OT, and the bad things less so. If you didn''t knwo bettert, you'd think George Lucas wrote the prequels first and then the OT came later after he had refined his craft. The sequels are just not good movies. While there has been some crying wolf abotu Star Wars being dead, the author of the video, like others with a similar optimistic outlook for the sequels, overlooks one thing: the OT is still the most popular by far. There are some voices who diminish the OT to make the sequels look better, but for the most part, people who like any Star Wars at all like the OT. There are many who only like the OT, but who likes the prequels but not the OT? The OT is timeless. Or at least it is timeless compared to the others. That's why the prequels and sequels are full of memberberries. It was revolutionary for its time, but even those who were not born yet when it took the western film world by storm still watch it and love it because it's pretty great in its own right. While the sequels *might* get an uptick in popularity when the kids of today get a bit older, how many people born after 2019 will watch the sequels when they get older and think they are great movies? My guess is, not nearly as many as there are young adults who love the OT now.

[@CinemageddonReviews]

Star Wars was never ruined for me when it came to the movies or shows or games. The only thing that got ruined for me is the idea of fandom and u can thank the godawful Star Wars fans for ruining that. Star Wars fans are truly the worst

[@Philip271828]

Not a Star Wars fan, but with the recent trajectory of 40K I've been pondering the progression of fictional worlds. Like Star Wars, 40K's creators have retired and passed their IP to money men which, combined with the sodding fans, may put a definite life limit on the settings.

[@tharetsku]

Hopefully Henry Cavill can breathe some life into 40k with the amazon series

[@rikk319]

Much like Judge Dredd, the "ridiculing fascism through a fictional world" of W40K only works with people self-aware enough to know that fascism is bad. For a lot of fans of both works, fascism is the whole point of their fandom.

[@Cappuccino_Rabbit]

Seeing how everyone is seething and fighting each other over the possibility of Female Astartes being a thing, i have the feeling 40k is heading towards some "dark ages" like how it was for Star Wars when The Last Jedi released, where it completely divided the already divided fanbase and turned everyone against said media they used to love so much, it's just a matter of time.

[@sternritternovad]

Honestly as someone who lived during the prequel bashing era, and still says revenge of the Sith is the second best movie of the original 3 I still love Star Wars, and as long as I get content like The Last Jedi, Ashoka, Star Wars Visions and the Book of Boba Fett I'm happy.

[@ReelPodcasts]

All "controversial" pieces of the Star Wars mythos and I agree build your own "cannon". Star Wars is different to everyone and I have nothing against people that like parts that I don't. Let it be for them and let what I like be for me. It doesn't have to be an all or not sum game.

[@rikk319]

@@ReelPodcasts True enough...but it's the people who lash out at what they don't like, make personal attacks, that are the toxic fanbase, or even toxic content creators on KZbin. They wear their issues on their sleeves for anyone to notice--the ones who are perpetually stuck in that era when Star Wars was magical to THEM, and screw everyone else's opinion.

[@rikk319]

The history of fan reactions to Star Wars media is a wonderful insight into the concept of Recency Bias.

[@TheVeritas1]

Good point.

[@schirry5144]

Star Wars fandom 🤝 Doctor Who fandom "Our decades-old sci-fi franchise that started as a kids' show is DEAD and RUINED FOREVER because of something we don't like!"

[@Nonamearisto]

That's generally what ruins franchises. If they liked it, it wouldn't ruin the franchise. Instead of dismissing complaints, you should see WHY they don't like that content.

[@TheVeritas1]

@@Nonamearisto Star Trek: The Next Generation wouldn't exist if its creators listened to fans who said "real Trek" must always star Captain Kirk and his crew. Not every fan criticism is credible.

[@Nonamearisto]

@@TheVeritas1 I agree that not every fan criticism works. However, you miss the greater point. The fans wanted to bring Star Trek back after it hadn't been on television for decades. They wanted a show which was true in spirit to the original, even without Kirk. And because they kept the flame going for so long, Star Trek first got its movies in the 80s, then a new TV show, and then several more shows in the 90s and beyond. If not for the fans keeping Roddenberry's vision going, it would have stayed dead.

[@jaydenc367]

@@TheVeritas1 Yeah....this youtuber is a very good example of that tbh.

[@TheVeritas1]

@@Nonamearisto And some of those Trekkies were furious when they learned the new Trek show would not focus on Kirk and company. So, they desired The New Generation to fail for not starring the "real Enterprise" crew. Never mind that the movies still featured the TOS crew they so loved. Resistance to new story ideas isn't just a Star Wars fandom thing.

[@jasonsadowski1070]

I think the biggest factor in the genuine disappointment of fans comes from the fact that when your a kid amazement of seeing something new & something that brings you joy is different than adult thinking. As kids we aren't as critical or concerned about believability. However when you are an adult it takes more than shiny objects to be satisfied. Secondly one of the biggest factor in how people become addicts or why serial killers escalate is because they are chasing that first high. However no matter what they do or try you can never get that back. Also Star Wars was written for kids but selfish people can handle that reality so they hate that naive storytelling isn't adult oriented. I really enjoyed the fact that someone finally had the guts to point out Star Wars has always be inconsistent it is why "From a Certain Point of View" storytelling exists. What bothers me perhaps more than anything is the revisionist history. People love to conveniently ignore that George Lucas was shredded and criticized for everything post Empire. The Ewoks were the original trilogy's Jar Jar. People destroyed the creator of Star Wars for updating his own creation when he released the Special Edition. They accused him of ruining Star Wars. The first 2 movies in the prequel trilogy were shredded by fans. Some demanded George Lucas let someone else take over the helm. Even to some extent people were overly critical of the Clone Wars series. They said it was to childish & they had Ahsoka for 2 seasons. So I find it hilarious that people people ignore of the first six movies half were hated/heavily criticized. Not to crap on George Lucas but when you really examine his 1977 & forward filmmaking most it is hit or miss with plenty of criticism leveled at. Therefore when you really think about the reasons George Lucas sold Star Wars to Disney you can't ignore that the Fandom made it easier for him to do it. I think people are fools to act like the criticism & angry fanbase is exclusive to the Disney era. Now I will not blame anyone who is critical of the sequel trilogy because it is absolutely obvious there was no road map or agreed upon story beats or plan when they chose who would direct or what the story was about. The worst part of Star Wars nowadays is the age of social media & KZbin. Views, clicks & clout chasing not diversity has destroyed Star Wars. Click bait & hate are rewarded by the algorithm allowing negativity to be be monetize. Sadly in our world scandal, fear & hate gets more attention than genuine critical analysis, enjoyment & positivity. As a result of that creators who have no principled belief or sense shame will crap all over things sight unseen to attract controversy that can be monetized. Take for example the Acolyte the showrunner made some comments that offended the sensibilities of racists, sexists, incels & revisionist historians so from that moment on shitting all over the show has been gold for those creators. Negativity is rewarded because human nature seems to be drawn to controversy & conflict it is far sexier than contentment. Proof of this can easily be found by looking the reactions to the Acolyte trailer. All of the ones that crap all over it have far more views than anything that is neutral or positive. Yet when you watch the hate reactions there is nothing of substance. People who have no idea that words & concepts have defined meanings love to throw around "woke" yet have no fundamental understanding of what that even means. They just know it gets them views and makes them money. I am completely open to things being criticized and people not liking something but the faux rage & anger is laughably ignorant & simply a performance. I am also so FN tired of the morons & fools that declare they are done with Star Wars and not going to waste any more time on it yet put out a video every time something new is released. Additionally they always tend to be the first one to be commenting on whatever just came out. I dont know about anyone else when I lose interest in something I sure as hell am not racing to put out content. If you truly have quit something you walk away your not the first one talking about it. There is no one who put out a hate video after the Acolyte trailer was released that judged it strictly on the content of what was released it was all culture war BS.

[@TheSmileMile]

I like stuff centered around the rebellion more than stuff centered around the Jedi. The Jedi where at their best when they remained mysterious. To me, the rebellion has only gotten more interesting with more information.

[@jesustovar2549]

What a way to say you prefer the original trilogy over the prequels.

[@TheSmileMile]

@@jesustovar2549 My favorite Star Wars movie is actually Rogue One.

[@rikk319]

@@TheSmileMile You must like Andor as well, then.

[@Fieryone233]

Great video as a Star Wars fan, but one point, Star Wars: Death Trooper and its sequel novel were the only two Star Wars Horror novels that featured Zombies when they were published.

[@agramuglia]

That is true....but there were some comics that featured zombie Gungans as well.

[@IsaiahAmos017]

Don't you diss the Star Wars holiday special every time I see Mark Hamill's makeup infused smile it makes me happy and Carrie Fisher singing brings me to tears Hell are you even like the grandpa who's on vrchat looking at p***

[@chefkochkawasaki4127]

This video honestly made me think a lot about how I approach Star Wars. And especially how for a long time my opinions were just those of KZbinrs. To start at the beginning, I was born in 2004 but I never grew up with the Prequels or TCW, instead I grew up with the Original Trilogy. I saw the Prequels as a kid but I vastly preferred the OT. Around the time TFA came out I was 11 years old, I liked the movie and Rogue One the following year, but I wasn't too big into Star Wars at the time. When TLJ came out I neither hated, nor loved it. And I'm not sure I even saw Solo in cinema. I did enjoy TroS on my first watch but I really wasn't into Star Wars at the time, so I had 0 expectations. My love was reignited with The Mandalorian. I then also over time watched TCW and Rebels. But when it came to the Prequels and Sequels, i hated them because of KZbinrs talking badly about them. But I eventually gave them a shot and enjoyed them more than I thought (especially Episode III). Until recently I hated all of the Sequels and I was fully on board with the whole "Ahsoka will use the World between Worlds to reboot the Sequels" bullshit. Until I gave them a shot, I thought TFA was okay, loved TLJ and despised TroS. I realized that most of my option was formed by my idea of Star Wars (OT) combined with KZbinrs visions. I now stay away from such people and just watch the stuff, some is trash, some is decent, some is good and sometimes there's a masterpiece waiting for me.

[@jesustovar2549]

Bro, why I feel like you're talking to me? I was born in 2004 too, I've been a Star Wars fan since I was 10 years old, my love started with Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga, incredible game, I also like the OT and I love the prequels (they were my introduction) but I also had that phase of hating them, cause KZbinrs and they repeated them a lot on tv, just like the 4th Indiana Jones film, I love it but I know it's not the best. I have the six movies on dvd (I'm going to see The Phantom Menace on cinemas). I also watched the sequels on theaters, I loved The Force Awakens, I knew it had similarities with A New Hope, I also liked The Last Jedi but I see it's flaws, The Rise of Skywalker is really undefensible. You know, I haven't seen most of the new shows but I think I'm going to do so and form my own criticism. Cheers buddy.

[@rikk319]

Definitely don't use KZbinrs as a basis for your information on anything. There's little to no screening of what is said, and a lot of toxic people end up spewing absolute bullshit. Better to develop a skeptical mindset and verify what you're hearing. Star Wars is fiction, it's art, and art is always subjective, so like what you want to like, not what someone tells you what to like.

[@TheVeritas1]

I really love your comment. It's always important to watch a film or show for yourself and then form your own opinion. You can miss a lot of enjoyment by blindly following the crowd, online or off.

[@MetalSandman999]

I mean, you definitely should see the movies to know if you like them or not, and not just rely on KZbinrs. But KZbinrs can raise some good points. For me, I liked TLJ when I first saw it (I even still consider it the best of the sequel trilogy). But when watching some of the better critical reviews, I found myself agreeing with their arguments for why the movie was bad probably 75-80% of the time. As a result. I think pretty poorly of it overall. But I do so because, having seen the movie first, I evaluated their points, changed my mind when a weakness seemed to really be a weakness that I hadn't thought of, and still disagree that 20% of the time or so (not every point made against the movie is valid).

[@CinemageddonReviews]

After finishing the video, I can say first hand, Jesus this is all very much on point. As someone who grew up loving the prequels, it was a huge culture shock for me to find out that these films were being hated by fans everywhere as I couldn’t understand why. Now seeing the revisionist history for these movies while people refuse to accept that Empire was never that well received in the first place until years later and failing to see the irony in how they’re reacting to the last Jedi by comparison, the only thing I hate about Star Wars, are the fans of Star Wars. The basement dwellers, the KZbinrs, the grifters, the man children who treat Star Wars like a parent coddling them from the problems of the world. These people are no better than Zack Snyder cultists and honestly idk which are worse

[@tharetsku]

I get what you're saying but saying empire strikes back and the last jedi are comparable in quality is fucking insane Reception may have been similar, though (which I think is what you're saying) I like the prequels too, but did you/do you actually think that they are good movies? Because I think they're a hell of a good time for a nerd like me who knows quite a few things about the series but critically they aren't great Maybe the same could some day be said about the sequels, if they could be padded up with lore linking the movies together better and fleshing out the characters, but currently they're just objectively bad movies that feel like they were made by Disney only to milk all the money out of their new acquisition.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@tharetsku A movie cannot be objectively bad, plain and simple, it can't. The act of critique and review is opinion, what ultimately matters is whether or not you like or dislike something. Reviews from a critic can say a film is technically inept and point out what they consider asinine writing decisions... but then another critic can say that same is put together solidly and that the writing is actually pretty good and serves the story well. In other words, you can absolutely be of the opinion that ESB and TLJ are comparable in quality and you're not wrong for that thought or fucking insane. You have an opinion. The only time is objectively bad is if we're talking stuff that promotes outright bad ideals like say Birth of a Nation which is a technically impressive film... but it's also a racist propaganda piece for the KKK.

[@cinemagoose]

Same! The worst thing about Star Wars is the fandom. Which is sad because the best part of Star Wars can also be the fandom sometimes.

[@Nonamearisto]

Star Wars is itself a reconstruction of old adventure and space opera scifi. It was "obsolete" in 1977. People looked at George like he was crazy to want to make something "like Flash Gordon." Yet he was right. There's no point in deconstructing it; space opera had already been taken apart long before Star Wars and George put it back together. A deconstruction was seen as offensive and pointless. Case in point, the box office numbers plunged. It still made money, but that was only due to people still hoping that TLJ would make TFA make sense. It didn't.

[@Chadjr2009]

I can see that SW for many toxic nostalgic fans, as their fanfic idea of what franchise should be. Based on their childhood memories or what time they joined the fandom.

[@KariIzumi1]

It ain't just SW fans either. We have this same issue in Trek right now in part because Paramount flinched when _Picard_ season 1 was met with mixed reviews and decided half way through filming season 2 that they were gonna go all in for TNG nostalgia in season 3, which started filming the day after season 2 wrapped up. If Paramount had been responded to the admittedly disasterous season 2, I could've understood and maybe even supported that myself, but most of the S1 reviews boiled down to the show not having a narrow focus moreso than not being TNG season 8. But then we got what we got in season 3, the fanboys hailed it the best season of Trek since DS9 (which they all probably hated on release 30 years ago because of the setting and/or its Black lead) and have spent the last year screaming about a "Legacy" memberberries series and blaming Paramount that Terry Matalas got picked up for a Marvel show (thank fuck, because I don't think he has an original idea in that brain of his for Trek) That one truly stands out for me as a franchise I've been apart of over half my life and distinctly remember being an _Enterprise_ fan that fanboys accused of being an enabler for the studio to continue pandering to the lowest common denominator and fans very much wanting a new show that broke from virtually unchanged TNG formula. And then we got that in Discovery, which they hated the first two seasons of Picard which they hated for the entirely wrong reasons; Lower Decks, which somehow managed to break through despite its own Black lead with an authority issue and; Prodigy, which is geared at a 6 to 11 audience but seems to be the only show not interested in living in the past. The only one they do seem to tolerate is Strangers New Worlds and I'm sure the white male lead whose actor pissed off half the only fanbase with his goy-centric takes on Israel is just a coincidence, I'm sure. 🫠

[@wanderingfool6312]

I’ve very fond memories of watching the original trilogy in cinemas with my dad. Some of the sequels have been good, some not so much, but as I’m now looking after my dad who has Parkinson’s, they’re some of the memories he still has, for the time being anyway and so are precious to me. Such things shape your ideas of what’s important and while I might be disappointed or hear outrage about the latest instalment, it’s always transitory to me, some things just remain.

[@caseythedigger4526]

Seeing Rise of Skywalker in theaters was an… interesting experience. However, there was one moment that’s always going to stick with me. When I walked out of the theater, there was this small child dressed as Rey about to see the movie at 10:00 at night. I‘ve long since lost interest in Star Wars due to how much of it there is, how I’ve realized how uncomfortable the fandom is, and just the fact that I’m an adult now who has more stuff going on in my life, but I think the beautiful thing about Star Wars is how it continues to live in with each passing generation, and whenever I see grown adults complaining to such an extreme extent about how the movies aren’t for them anymore, I can’t help but feel like they’re missing the point.

[@oexplorador6840]

Star wars fans are the reason the word "ruined" doesn't have any meaning anymore. And i for one like the franchise. To be honest, if i had to put a word to descibe the ENTIRETY of the star wars fanbase it would be this: "Hypocrisy", the entirerty of the fanbase and community is hypocrisy manifest.

[@HolyknightVader999]

The problem with Traviss' books is not that she made the Mandalorians into Mary Sues, it's that she couldn't sell them as Mary Sues. There's been plenty of Mary Sues and Gary Stus in Star Wars. Damn near every main character for an EU work, as well as every OT main character, is one way or another either a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu, but we overlook that, because they way they were presented is awesome. Revan and the Jedi Exile from the KOTOR games. Jaden Korr and Kyle Katarn from the Jedi Knight games. Starkiller from the Force Unleashed games. We accepted it all because they were presented well. The problem is, all the Mandalorians do in the Traviss books were not presented well; all they do is whine about how evil the Jedi were and how the Mandalorians are so much better, but all they do is hunt chump terrorists and barely back up the claim that Mandalorians are better than Jedi. So all you get are a bunch of whiny little twats who would probably die the moment Meetra Surik, Darth Sidious, or Luke/Anakin Skywalker show up to fight them. Hell, someone like Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura, Asajj Ventress, or your average Imperial Shadow Guard would probably be more than enough to slaughter them like animals. KOTOR 2 did a better job of selling the Mandalorians as a peer culture to the Jedi, especially when they make your Jedi character walk a mile in a Mandalorian's shoe when you meet the Mandalorians and have to help them out in order to progress the story; you see what makes them tick and what makes them a match for the Jedi, and they actually respect the Jedi who can match them, making the KOTOR Mandalorians respectable even from a Jedi perspective. They respect the Jedi as warriors even though they disagree with the Jedi Code. You even get to fight the Mandalorians in a contest of strength, and you realize that they're more than a match for you. Hell, you realize that in KOTOR 1 where all you do is fight them when you see them, save for Canderous and a few others, and they're tough hombres to boot. That way, you actually walk away with a sense of respect for them; they were the Old Republic's equivalent to 40K Space Marines, and they back up that talk with strength and action. The last time they went to war with the galaxy, they almost burned the Republic down, if not for some Dark Jedi war criminal annihilating them all by using their tactics against them and slaughtering them in the final battle at Malachor V. Mary Sues and Gary Stus work well in Star Wars because it is a power fantasy story. The main heroes are all far more powerful than the average goon, and they take on villains who wield incalculable power, through the Dark Side, through military might, or commercial/industrial might. Or a combination of all three. It's how they're presented which makes them work well or not. Nobody batted an eyelash when Mara Jade became every SW novel reader's favorite female Force-user during the novel years; nobody batted an eyelash when Mace Windu became so powerful he kicked the Emperor's ass as if the man owed him some money. It basically showed that the SW fanbase is more than happy with minority and female characters so long as they're presented well. But like Karen Traviss, the Sequel main characters were not presented well. Rey was just sold based on her sex, Finn was sold based on his skin color. Take those two away; make Rey a man and make Finn white, and what you have is almost nothing. If they added other characteristics and sold those characters based on that, like say, make Rey a genuinely wise Jedi from the start, or make Finn charismatic and funny, it would've been more interesting, and the fans would've accepted them more.

[@DefaultProphet]

“Cinematography is great, directing is great, writing is good but it’s just a forgettable show cause there’s screws in the wall” kind of sums up the majority of Disney Star Wars hate imo

[@WorldWeave]

That first section is literally just “no one hates StarWars like StarWars fans”

[@DefaultProphet]

Still can’t believe they never made a sequel to The Last Jedi

[@theazurefire91]

If they had and if it had been good, maybe Last Jedi would be more widely accepted today.

[@amethystimagination3332]

I avoided Star Wars like the plague for a few years because my only real exposure to it was fandom racism towards Finn and sexism towards Rey. It put me off, I didn’t want to be in the company of a bunch of bigoted man babies having a perpetual temper tantrum. Once the heat died down I eventually did watch the original trilogy and I had fun with them, I can understand why they’re so influential. But I was way too old to have my mind blown like people who watched it when they were kids, and to some extent I think you need to have nostalgia for the franchise in order to be a super fan. The loudest parts of the fandom keep demanding the same experience they had when they were 11, but they’re not 11 anymore and instead of appreciating new Star Wars media for what it is or god forbid find something new, they lash out and attack the actors who are just doing their job. While I can now separate the art from the fans, I’m still put off from engaging with the Star Wars fandom because most of them need to grow up but refuse to.

[@rikk319]

Bigoted man-babies is right. I was 8 when the first Star Wars came out and loved it. When Empire came out, I was starting puberty, and Luke's journey of discovery affected me deeply. But by the time Return of the Jedi came out, I was a teen, and Star Wars no longer had a deep hold on me. Since then, Star Wars has been entertainment, not the meaning of my life. For some of these fans, I feel they've never developed emotionally past the 3rd grade, and act like it when their personal relationship with Star Wars is nudged by someone else's take on the Star Wars universe.

[@NiamhIsBig]

I can’t find the specific time stamp for it but the clip of that one guy talking about Andor kinda hits the nail on the head for what I think is up with modern Star Wars. The large scale conversation is dominated by people who don’t really give a shit about artistic quality. They just want the aesthetic of Star Wars. Because how else do you describe someone confidently saying “yeah the cinematography and acting and writing were all great. But I can see the screws holding the set together so it’s a disappointment.” That’s someone who doesn’t value the story the show’s trying to tell, they value the idea of a made up place in a story they watched as a kid and never thought critically of since.

[@rikk319]

I also think that a lot of KZbinrs who focus on specific content (like Star Wars) eventually have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for ideas, because basing a career on discussing one fandom is going to eventually run out of reasonable stuff to talk about. Not to mention that it smacks of obsession.

[@MetalSandman999]

The people who just want the aeshtetic of Star Wars are the ones keeping rhe franchise going. Those who make specific criticism about artistic quality are usually the ones written off as toxic manbabies. After all, "all Star Wars is good Star Wars" (which really means it is all kinda dumb and just about lasers going pew pew). Shows like Obi-Wan Kenobi were big hits because it had laser swords and nostalgia, not because it was a great story choice in the context of the greater canon. Not because its own story was very good. Not because of the charactwrs either. But because it was so cool to see Obi-Wan Kenobi and Vader have the rematch of the century (even though, storywise, they havmd that in A New Hope).

[@nunosilva369]

Well done! Glad more and more people seem to be finally realizing the cyclical nature of the fandom.

[@lazylefthand]

Star Wars will always be a story about Luke forgiving his dead beat dad and using love to defeat hate, for me. Thats always what made it so special to me.

[@TherealMatthias1998]

First impression: hard disagree with the title. Andor might not have filled me with the same kind of wonder, but it was one of my favorite seasons of television I’ve ever seen

[@indianaCurtis]

But in all seriousness though I'm so tired of the endless regurgitation of "mAh star wars is ruined forever 😩" especially in the so-called "Disney era" it is ridiculous non-troversy that has plagued this franchise for decades I personally blame Gen X and early millennials for this blind worship of star wars and letting their overhype and expectations get in the way but that is just me

[@rikk319]

As a man in his 50s and a student of history, I've found it ironic to blame an entire generation for the flaws of a segment of their population. Realistically, the blame lays on the prior generation for parenting the next into that kind of behavior.

[@christianstephan7301]

I'm kind of in a tight spot where I like the prequels and original trilogy, but also dislike aspects of both of them. I'm kind of comfortable there. The prequels had way too much "toys" incorporated, where the movie was a big showcase for stuff you could market, but at the core I really love the story of the politics playing out in those movies, where I really love the story of the original story as a kind of gold standard for the heroes journey. Neither was perfect, which is why I think I'm not really a "prequel" or "original" type of guy, but just someone who is really in love with the IDEA of what Star Wars is or represents.

[@MLPGamer44]

Being a child growing up during the prequels, I learned all about the EU from wookiepedia. It gave me an almost “pseudo” lore of what came before the prequels which I was loving. I grew up in the drought of the early 2000’s desert of EU. My appreciation of star wars came from learning of Star Wars, from what fans put on wookepidea. I learned so much about the eu and OT from wookiepedia. Im now all about headcanons. I didn’t know the 80-90’s Star Wars lore, so I learned from the fandom, and I loved it. It sucked how much the prequels got shit on during that time. I just love star wars

[@senior_sakuga]

Every single talking point is basically how I feel abt SW and it’s insane asylum of a fandom. It’s always been a sliding scale and too many very sweaty neckbeards wanna keep gate keeping and move the goalposts of what is and isn’t SW. Also all the bigotry and death threats don’t help either😭

[@rikk319]

The fandom has grown so large that there's bound to be people in it now who says crap like "The Empire wasn't wrong." I swear, it makes me wonder the average age of those kinds of fans, because I can't see someone growing up with the original trilogy and siding with the Empire. Probably more likely fans of Ben Shapiro.

[@latrodectusmactans7592]

As someone who read a lot of the old books… God were they bad. I loved them as a kid, but I basically only read the bad ones. I cringe thinking about stuff like the giant earthworm scene in Courtship of Princess Leia.

[@rikk319]

I've read a lot of books in different fandoms over the years. Going back to read stuff you loved as a kid is usually a recipe for disappointment and disaster. I did the same with The Hardy Boys series, a lot of Star Wars expanded universe, D&D novels...but I have to say, there were novels that stood out among the trash.

[@Veylon]

I remember people being upset that Rey was Palpatine's granddaughter and wondering why when he already has an grandson in the novels. I thought you guys liked the EU?

[@Yusufqxq]

@@Veylon Triclops CLAIMED to be Palpatine s kiddo, several writers disaggred on if he was true son of Palpy or not and he is a silly cartoony idea that no one takes seriously from what ı know.From what ı remember he was a warden that tried to take over the empire with his Moff buddy (Who has lines like "I bid you all dark greetings!") . He ended up failing miserably. Not really defending it since ı havent even read those books but know about him from some memes. Just saying there is a gap between Palpatine s heroic daughter oc that saves the galaxy and obscure guy that may or may not be related to Palpatine that dies in a ditch before achieving anything.

[@Veylon]

@@Yusufqxq I was talking about Ken (the titular Jedi Prince), who IIRC, was the son of Triocules, Palpatine's real son. I did read the books and however bad and silly you think they were, they were definitely worse. I like to bring these series up any time someone puts on their rose colored glasses about the EU and it's lore.

[@theazurefire91]

Courtship is...weird. I recently listened to the new audiobook, which was my first experience with the story so I don't have the nostalgia filter for it. It simultaneously has some of my favorite and stupidest moments in the EU. Luke's force healing scene? Fantastic, love it. Perfect explanation for how Force healing works and is consistent with how Qui-Gon couldn't be healed. But it's followed by Luke acting arrogant to the point of being out of character and doesn't gel at all with how he acts in the Thrawn trilogy which immediately follows it. The courtship between Han and Leia itself? Boring and at times outright cringeworthy (you know what I'm talking about). Isolder? Wonderful new character. I had more fun with him and Luke than I did with the two characters the book is supposed to be about.

[@JS-bu4xt]

You went off! This is honestly the thinking the average person has about the franchise. Once you get to the people that would attack a creator online, you get into a whole other level of fan. It’s a cycle, and people refuse to accept that history just keeps repeating itself with this franchise.

[@cmfort2696]

I was homeless when I was 17; I fell asleep in the theater after using movie money to watch the Star Wars "special edition". I had a nice nap.

[@azazel166]

Turns out the biggest Wars are in one Star, ours. Because somehow we're even more petty that that galaxy.

[@TheIMP2010]

Guess it was a short jump from "Reaction Content" to "Reactionary Content" for Ol' Magnus there.

[@JediJared-bs1wt]

Actually Boba Fett had five lines in the trilogy, and one of them was “AHHHH!”

[@ZILtoid1991]

My biggest grief with the sequel trilogy is that Ep. IX felt like they tried to make a compromise with the big haters too much. They even retconned the "compressor" bit, because Stefan Molyneux used that originally to argue that Rey was a Mary Sue.

[@TheVeritas1]

Lucasfilm and Disney really freaked out over Solo doing poorly at the box office and concluding that a boycott by the Big Haters (great term) was responsible. Hence, we got Episode IX. The Last Jedi isn't among my favorite Star Wars films because of Canto Bight, which doesn't lead to significant character growth for Finn. Still, an imperfect swing for the fences is better than a film by committee like Episode IX.

[@huntergalbraith2771]

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Right down to Sailor Moon being more rewatchable than Star Wars lol

[@Bionickpunk]

It helps that Sailor Moon stories are fairly contained, no multiple different media muddying the main story of any given adaptation.

[@360Jopo]

I've always loved Star Wars even if its always been inconsistent. Andor is especially great and the "bricks and screws" comment is some of the worst reaches I've ever seen holy shit.

[@clonemarine1]

I grew up during the CGI Clone Wars series, so that period of Star Wars is the most nostalgic for me. The Last Jedi is the first movie where I felt that "I don't care about this anymore" emotion. I didn't hate the whole movie, but there were some particular fake out moments where it felt like the writers didn't commit to sacrifices that would have given meaning to the events on screen. But I came to a realization that the movies just aren't my thing, anymore. They belong to a different audience, now. The best thing for me to do now is sit my old-ass in the corner and let the kids have fun, lol.

[@MCDreng]

Gave up with TROS, came back for Mando and Andor.

[@ender7278]

There's this tongue in cheek Doctor Who website that has a list of times Doctor Who was ruined forever, and it's rather lengthy.

[@Theguy493]

For my money the best piece of Star Wars media is KOTOR 2.

[@agramuglia]

Yeah, that's a fair argument to make. That or the first game.

[@civilwarfare101]

Nah, Jedi Outcast is the best, at least it's finished.

[@TheBlackOtaku]

What killed Star Wars? It wasn’t George Lucas. It wasn’t a prequel trilogy. It wasn’t Disney. It wasn’t Kaplan Kennedy no it was you the fandom itself

[@maylabrown4584]

No it was Disney hiring Kathleen Kennedy, who started the Sequel Trilogy.

[@da_BemBem]

Legitimately, my biggest qualms with the new star wars movies really comes down to how I wanted more for Finn and Poe. I didn't mind Ray, I thought she did well. I don't like the sequels, but honestly, I don't think 7 or 8 are that bad. 8 had less garbage in it as Attack of the Clones. 7 added some things and iterated old things and was fun, exciting, fine. Never saw 9. Don't intend to. Didn't seem to develop the storylines I wanted to see, Didn't find the time investment to be worth the potential entertainment. Honestly, you're right on the money. It's a lot of first-time-new-to-me and nostalga filter. And second hand nostalga filter is a powerful thing.

[@MCDreng]

Yeah I don't hate TLJ but I was really hoping for more from Finn than we got Edit: I wasn't really upset that Rey was the big focus, but I thought the former stormtrooper story had a lot of potential.

[@petevaldezbc1]

I'm not a Star Wars fan, but I find the decline of the franchise fascinating (hence why I'm watching this video). But from the periphery, I worked in a kitchen when TFA came out, and all the men in the kitchen I worked with were absolutely obsessed with the movie. They were speculating on Rey's lineage and were keen on repeat viewings in the theater. I didn't see any backlash on the ground with (those) fans. I'm also old enough to remember when the prequels came out...the hype was huge for all 3 and I didn't get any impression that people weren't happy with the prequels until Disney Star Wars (TLJ specifically) and I started watching "Star Wars is Dead" type videos on KZbin

[@KrazyStargazer]

Ive thought about this for a while. And its because Star Wars is a religion. (Stay with me here) You have the "sacred texts" the "prophesy" and "destiny". Stand ins for cannon, nostalgia and emotion. Both the beauty and curse of Star Wars is its maliability. It can mean anything. A western? A romance? A war drama? A pulp fiction? Add that with the fact alot of people likely watch this when their young and forming their identity. So what their defending is there version of Star Wars. I think...all the ugliness stems from love. You cannot hate something you didnt love first. To alot of fans Star Wars represents a time in their lives. More so than the characters and story it represents their "good memories" So when spmething new comes along... Its like watching your childhood home be destroyed. You feel hurt...you might not even have liked that house...but now that its gone it hurts all the more... I basicly think these fans refuse to move on because it means so much to them. But its inevitable that it must change. And so you rebel agaist the new...because it hurts to mich to move on. The solution? Dont take it so seriously. Remember its just a story. It doesnt hold any intrinsic meaning so it can mean anything. Let it go and you will be free and see new oportunities. Holding on to the past will lead to fear, then hate...than suffering. Letting go of control is the answer. Leting things run their course and helping where you can is the answer.

[@jesustovar2549]

Bro, your last lesson is what Yoda taught to Anakin in Episode 3, "train yourself to let go, of everything you fear to lose", that's George Lucas lesson, attachment can be dangerous. Also Inception.

[@jesustovar2549]

Also, my Great Aunt's house was sold to another people cause she died, so I totally get what you're saying, childhood memories.

[@KrazyStargazer]

@jesustovar2549 yea I was being a bit meta and cheeky. Its a shame that fans don't reflect a bit more on the message of these movies rather than the lazerswords

[@commandZee]

Good job on this-great thesis! LOL, I'm only a year older than the OT and was a diehard fan of them. As films I hated the execution of the Prequel Trilogy, but still appreciated the lore. Like you, I thought TLJ was a good film and made complete sense based on Luke's OT character. And I agree, _Andor_ is also imo the best Star War to date, rivaled only by TESB.

[@jesustovar2549]

TLJ could be better if it was not a Star Wars film.

[@StevenJG]

I think the healthiest approach to all this, at least to me, is the route of making our own personal watching orders or ‘headcanon timelines.’ Just pick and choose between what you like and if anything new comes along that you end up enjoying or you feel enriches your experience with the story and characters then tack it onto the end of your timeline. We each have our own tastes and interpretations which shape what the words ‘Star Wars’ mean to us. Much like we have our own favourite versions of Batman or Spider-Man. For me, I really only stick with the Clone Wars and OT eras. I just kinda skip over Episodes 1-2 and just start right where the Clone Wars picks up. I care about the Clones, Anakin, Obi Wan and Ahsoka, so I keep to what stories and plot lines are pivotal to their characters. I also enjoy a ton of the spin off materials with Bad Batch, Rebels, Jedi Order/Survivor and Rogue One and the characters within them. The story of Star Wars for me ends with Return of the Jedi, with Mando Seasons 1-2 being somewhat of an epilogue. Past that, not much else really matters to me. Have yet to see Andor for myself yet, but I’m sure going to give it a shot and if I like it I’ll add it into my headcanon. I don’t care what implications came from any of the hundreds of novels I haven’t read. I don’t have to care about what the sequel trilogy did to any of the characters and lore, I can just ignore it and maybe imagine different scenarios in my head as to where those characters might have gone….or just simply move on.

[@MightyTuna221]

remember when everyone hate the prequels pepperidge farm remember

[@chedder_chandlure4363]

It have never felt better to be apathetic towards Star Wars. I don't really care if Star Wars isn't my cup of tea nowadays. I just go watch and play media I do like. also based Last Jedi liker?!?!

[@hacman8732]

Hearing people talk about Andor is so infuriatingly unsurprising

[@MrBadAppleZ]

Not at all. One of the only disney-era projects worthy of the praise it gets

[@cakelover699]

@@MrBadAppleZBut it’s filled with boring and confusing filler

[@dillon4821]

@@cakelover699 you people are so weak, you probably can’t even get through one breaking bad monologue

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

Andor is fantastic but I get what you mean because the conversations around it like with basically any Star Wars thing is just the worst shit. Either you have people out here shouting that this is how Star Wars should always be when really it's more a testament to how versatile this franchise can be that it can have goofiness and this and yet both still feel like they belong in the same universe or you have those that frankly when it comes to their criticisms are baffling.

[@rikk319]

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 With social media now you get the loudest of both ends, hating and loving...what you miss in social media is the majority of fans who were probably entertained, but not enough to gush over it one way or another. This promotes a continued clash of the extremes, while most people who nominally enjoy Star Wars but aren't rabid fans have no idea of the level of vitriol the two extremes throw at each other.

[@jeremyhague2119]

I grew up in the 90s and saw all of the prequels and the rereleases of the 2nd and 3rd films in the theaters. I didn’t even see the original Star Wars until I was in the hospital two years ago when I caught it in TNT. I really didn’t see what everyone liked about the first one. But, I was highly medicated at the time. Though, I loved Rogue One that was probably the best of all of them.

[@jleary0077]

This is the very same conversation I've been having with some of my friends. I can't tell you how good it feels to hear someone else saying the same things. Mark my words- In time the sequel trilogy will be re-evaluated the same way the prequels were. Personally, I still don't like the prequels, but I respect them. I think the sequels are better than the prequels. And while I may not like all Star Wars, I do love all Star Wars.

[@greyshinobi1]

as a star wars fan I say, "Star wars fans are the worst"

[@yraaklen]

21:18 my man, the (movie)game of Star Wars ep.3 : revenge of the sith, was amazing.

[@agramuglia]

That's fair. But Phantom Menace's game wasn't

[@toomberrebmoot9244]

Yeah, that was the one part where I HARD disagreed. I mean, he's right about every other movie tie-in game but the ROTS game actually felt like it had passion and effort put into it.

[@yraaklen]

​@@agramugliayeah, but still, i liked walking around on Tatooine, in the Phantom Menace PS1 ( I was only 7 though).

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

ROTS was the diamond in the rough I'd say but most of the movie tie-ins? Still ass. Hell I'd say ROTS it's mostly that it had a great combat system that lent itself well to its genuinely solid duel mode but in terms of the campaign design? It kind of was a decent-enough beat-em-up.

[@yraaklen]

​@@the-aspiring-creator4249 Come on, it was more than decent. It was dope that you could go through the movie as either Kenobi or Skywalker(with Anakin winning in his). The original trilogy GBA game was good fun too though.

[@rhymeswithghost]

That first 6 1/2 minutes was so on point I haven’t got the words. One of those things I’ve always known, heard said, even lived through, but wow. Really drove it home. Well played, sir.

[@gallifreyanknight1355]

I actually just finished rereading Darth Plagueis a couple weeks ago,and I loved it, tbh. To me, both continuities are just two different timelines with some common events to occur in the span of 35 years, that have both given me things I both like and dislike.

[@WillisRude]

That intro went so long and I just kept laughing with each edition.

[@TheVeritas1]

I actually through those fandom cycles and still couldn't believe that spot on intro.

[@HubPie3]

Speaking as someone who loves most of what the Disney era of Star Wars has given us (even Rise of Skywalker), I don't have the energy to confront Star Wars fans. I was a Prequel era kid, who grew up on the LEGO games, who went through his own "Prequels bad" era that *everyone* was going through at one point in time. I just want to be able to explain why I love the things I do without being hounded by fans. Rey Skywalker is my favorite Star Wars character, so whenever people compare her to Asohka to bring Rey down (before the Asohka show would make these numbnuts turn on her), it turned me away from talking with other fans and turned me away from looking further into the Clone Wars TV series. Meanwhile characters like Starkiller (an extremely boring protagonist who indirectly ends up being the inspiration for the Rebellion, which I hate on a conceptual level) get a pass. Not everyone will agree with my opinion on Starkiller, but I hate how I will potentially get more harassment for liking Rey and disliking Starkiller than the other way around. It's frustrating. I just want to be able to give my perspective on Star Wars without feeling like I have to paint a target behind my back, all because I think the new movies are respectful to the previous movies.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

If you don't mind me jumping in with some of my own thoughts, I think one of the reasons why Starkiller gets a pass is the same reason a ton of the video game protags of Star Wars got a pass. Nostalgia and people being able to control them. I guarantee you if Starkiller was introduced in a movie or a TV show first? People would HATE him. Hell, I remember people didn't really care for him back in 2008. Same with Ahsoka, there are several comments from people back when the old TCW movie came out where these same fans shat all over her and the series that followed. Hell, I remember when season 5 was announced to be where the series ended and after the response to that where people started petitions and more? They announced the then Netflix-exclusive season and showed a clip as a preview... and that clip pissed these same people off because they thought it was retconning and ruining Episode III because these fans to be blunt are not fans of Star Wars, they are SLAVES to its lore. They are fans of the Star Wars they grew up with and would rather that be constantly preserved in amber and whenever ANYTHING threatens that they complain and cry and claim it's ruined. It happens with Marvel, it happens with Star Wars, anime, video games and more. Really it's people refusing their childhood isn't ruined but rather they're grown up and are finding that certain things aren't vibing like they used to and instead of doing the thing people really should do when that happens which is accept that a series is not for them and then move on? They're too prideful and ignorant to consider that. To paraphrase the Simpsons meme with Principal Skinner almost verbatim. They don't want to admit they're out-of-touch, it's the children who are wrong to them.

[@tharetsku]

First off, I may come across a bit heated here, but I seriously do want ok have this discussion, so bear with me. Why do you think the new movies are respectful to the originals? The reason they exist is for teen to make profit for Disney. They aren't made by one crazy guy who had a vision about a galaxy far far away. They're made by loads of people, who all have different views of what star wars is and should be, making the trilogy an absolute mess. I think that Abrams could've made an interesting trilogy, and I think the same of Johnson. But together, with conflicting views on the characters, settings, themes, rules, *everything*, the trilogy comes out a mess. I am very curious as to why Rey is your favourite character also. I know favourite≠best, but I know that it's possible you think she's both. I think that it's definitely OK to like her, of course, as it is to like jar jar binks, but I think saying that they are better, or even good for that matter in terms of character writing is about equally ludicrous to me. I have so many thoughts about this series, and presumably so do you, and I'd be happy to discuss them with you as it seems mine seem to be quite different from yours.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@tharetsku If you are asking the questions like this? I'm just gonna be blunt here, I believe you when you say you want to have a discussion, I just don't think you're as open-minded as you think to accept that. The thing is, you have these opinions of the sequels, another doesn't and it's simple as that. Two people can come into one piece of media and come out with very differing opinions. Since I saw one of your comments mentioning this, I'd ask why you'd ask this when you liked the Bay-led Transformers films. I'd say that because critically? They are very much not considered good movies with quite a few fans even hating them. However there are people who have come out of those movies liking them just fine and really it comes down to different tastes. Them reviewing badly doesn't mean they're "objectively" bad. What it means is that the general consensus among critics are that they're bad but otherwise people are still free to have their own opinions. The only time you can bring objectivity into the argument is if you are stating the facts in like an article so if you are writing an article about the Bayverse films and their reception? You have to acknowledge they are generally not well-liked. But if you enjoy them? You're free to enjoy them and you can have your own rationalizations for why scenes work for you and so on. It is not a fact the sequels are disrespectful to the original films, it is an opinion and really it's not even that, it's disrespectful to how you view the old films which is likely because unlike the old films? The sequels are not your childhood. You didn't grow up with TFA, TLJ and TROS, you likely grew up with there being one Star Wars trilogy and thus your views of those movies will always have that advantage of being the thing that got you into it and sparked your imagination. To use Transformers as an example, I grew up with the Unicron Trilogy which were three localized anime series and the movies. It took me years before I went back and watched G1 and I found from watching it that I didn't like it, finding that while it was fun? It was little more than a cheesy glorified toy commercial with the standard production values one would expect from a cartoon of its day. Of course that's not to take away from the experiences of those who grew up with it and thus recognize it as their Transformers and how they love it but that's my reality. Hell going back to those old shows and movies I used to like? I found I didn't care for the Bayverse films upon rewatching with fresh eyes free of nostalgia and really that's the thing about long-running franchises. Star Wars is as perfect as any other series in that it's not. It's just that depending on the person getting into it, what age you're getting into it at, what's available and what notions you have going into it? Each person is gonna come out with differing takes. There's no such thing as objectivity with this series because your reaction is based entirely on your personal feelings. Case in point, if you don't like the ST or the PT? It's not that the other person's wrong, it's that you just don't like them, they just didn't click with you like they did with others and for a great deal of movies, there are always things to find that people will like. CinemaWins in particular is a great KZbin channel for pointing this out because it even covers films that the person running it may not even like and they will be honest about it but they'll still cover a movie fairly in terms of counting off the wins and one might find through the experience there's things they didn't consider. Perhaps they don't walk out with the opinion changed but that's not the purpose. In particular one thing I'm drawn to is how there's a point during specifically his video on Joker where he explains how if you pick apart any movie, you will always find problems, flawless movies don't exist and how problems bother us depend on how we feel about the movie and it affects everybody. Critics for example will often be harsher towards movies because due to the nature of their job they have to watch several movies, even those of genres they may not like and sometimes multiple films in a row. They love the art of film but they also have spent so much time dissecting it as a job that it's hard to sometimes watch a film to enjoy it or even get with a movie's vibe right away depending on when they got to it. It also could've been watched on the day of a tragedy which means they end up associating unconsciously that film with the tragic event. Also every movie falls to pieces when you pick it apart. When you stop watching it as a form of entertainment and are looking for the seams and imperfections, you'll see the cracks.

[@albertthepeacock8020]

You're a good man,you should not be shamed for liking a character

[@tharetsku]

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 I was 9 years old when the force awakens came out, and I liked it more than episodes I and II. I had shirts, posters and a pencil case with Kylo Ren because I thought he was very cool. I've always been kind of a negative person, but fiction has always been my escape. Things like transformers, star wars, the lord of the rings, and the hobbit make up over half of my fondest memories with my family and friends. I don't know what you consider "growing up" but I don't think being 17 currently that I'm even close to being done. So I'd argue that I grew up with the ST. And I can't remember what I exactly said about the bayverse, but what I think about those movies is that they're very dumb and very over the top, but to me they're a pretty good time. But in those films I think the character of optimus prime is brutally butchered, much like I think the ST did to Luke. In the bayverse optimus is a somewhat edgy killing machine, not the compassionate loving giant capable of great things he is in for example in transformers prime (the show I grew up on). Luke in the sequel trilogy has his moments obviously, but I still think that him almost killing *the son of his (best?) friend* is not in his character in the slightest. That's why after the last jedi I started viewing the ST as its own thing, separate from the complete story of Anakin Skywalker that is episodes I through VI. I'm pretty much rambling now and I can't really see what I'm exactly trying to say or the point I'm trying to make, but I still think that the main thing the ST is, is a whole lot of wasted potential. Also sorry if there are typos, English isn't my firtt language and my autocorrect is absolutely feral. And thank you very much for your well thought out and well worded reply.

[@jasonreynolds6643]

At the end of the day it just comes down to when have you had enough of it. Eventually most people reach a point when they are done with Star Wars. There were always movies/shows that didn’t live up to expectations but there was still a hope that a new movie would be great. Eventually we realize it isn’t getting better and then we walk away. We lose the fear of missing out and we leave.

[@hidicproductions4849]

Maybe the best video on Star Wars as a whole online. It explains, how our nostalgia works and why the fans will never be satisfied. Especially through the internet loophole. I slowly start to understand, why disney acts how it acts. They gave up and do, what the fans want, and it doesn't work. That's not how art is created. Sadly they have to make money. I love star wars. But since a few years I moved on to other science fiction. Especially since the Fandom started to get more toxic per day. I can handle a bad movie. But I can't handle people harassing actors, who just do their job.

[@CompComp]

Regarding the books you're 100% right sone of them aren't good. But I recently read through the original Thrawn books and the rest of the main sequel timeline books and I did enjoy most of them. Regarding the sequle movies. The first one was ok and had potential. But I did not enjoy the 2nd & 3rd. To me they felt like there was no semblance of a plan from the start. I'm sure was a fun movie for children, and I know Star Wars & Disney is for children. But that doesnt excusing it for being bad. Also all the chuds that harassed the crew and eat a bag of Ds.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

There will always be exceptions in regards to certain pieces of media. It's how one person can watch the prequels and see them as ass and another can see them as great. The point is that regardless of your thoughts on Star Wars content, Star Wars cannot be ruined, it's never going to appeal to everyone and it has always been imperfect. It will always spark different reactions.

[@theazurefire91]

I just reread the Thrawn trilogy and despite a few hiccups they hold up surprisingly well. I attribute that to Zahn's worldbuilding.

[@metal_fusion]

Star Wars is like that abusive relationship between the male and female characters. Neither of them are smart enough to realize how dumb they are with/against each other

[@heliax9924]

that intro perfectly summarizes the fanbase this is also one of the best videos on how nostalgia and childhood hood can influence your opinions its crazy to me how we are ganna see an era of people praising the sequels because they grow up with them and i dont mean this in the (its the sequels they suck lmaooooooooooooooooo) way just thats its fascinating how history truly repeats itself This open minded videos on star wars are such a breath of fresh air compared to most nowdays hope this style gains more traction

[@SomeBlokeOrWhatever]

I feel like Star Wars is a lot more enjoyable if you don't take it so seriously People hold these movies up as these great epics -- They're just... Fun fantasy/scifi movies. And they never stopped being that, yanno? The OT is fun and I _adore_ the 80s special effects in the despecialized editions. The Prequels have a lot of fun setpieces and they try desperately to be "serious" movies and fail so hard I can't help but be fond of them. The new trilogy is also fun, albeit the amount of Discourse (tm) on it has me afraid to say anything positive about it.