Meanwhile... | Shadowbringers FFXIV

[@Salt_Mage]

“The writers don’t like Merlwyb, she’s not given much to do” Kan-E-Senna/Gridania fans are the skeleton at the bottom of the pool in that meme.

[@xataru]

All two of them.

[@EloquentTroll]

Twin Adders rise up!

[@ahorseofcourse7283]

The WoL is the happy-go-lucky lorenerd RPer who does every sidequest and levels every crafting job, and Zenos is the guy who bought boosts, skipped cutscenes, and then complained about boredom.

[@jessecox]

As usual, love the convo.. and love knowing what you don't :)

[@yummypancakes7768]

I miss seeing your hype and crazy theories from when you were going through the MSQ, #1 Zenos fan Jesse Cox

[@TFalconwing]

Q+×​@@yummypancakes7768

[@arathain2]

You like Zenos for the same reason I do. He's surrounded by schemers. Everyone treats him like he must be a schemer too. No one believes he is as he seems. So a simple, predictable character becomes a chaos agent. He slices through their schemes not because he has some of his own, but because they are in his way.

[@ZekeRaiden]

I always thought he was exactly as he appeared to be, and that was exactly why I hated him. Because he was _dull._ His boredom was boring; his crazypants murderboner was boring; his forced, "no I'm totally cooler than you" auto-wins against us were boring; the game's refusal to ever _show_ him doing interesting things on-camera was boring. I love a well-made simple character, like the Joker. The Joker is an amazing villain, and yes, he is like a blade slicing through the spiderwebs of other villains in Batman--lovely analogy. But the Joker has, y'know, _emotions._ He hams it up on stage. He prances about, he _enjoys_ his villainy, and (perhaps most importantly) he has other characters to connect with (or, more accurately, manipulate) to show his cruelty, cunning, and charisma. I saw Zenos for exactly what he was: an emotionally-stunted, nihilistic jerk who loves to spout faux-philosophical speeches, that the narrative kept constantly pushing as So Ultra Special And Cool And Absolutely The Most Important Character™. His problem wasn't that he was immune to character development (most simple villains are; it's what makes their third-act breakdown so satisfying); it wasn't that he was cruel or selfish or various other wicked traits; it wasn't that he was a cutting blade as opposed to a mastermind in a spider's web. His problem was that they never had him DO anything, and when he did do things, he would be either dully emotionless, CrAzY-eYeD iNsAnE, or *GRAH, FEEL MY UNHOLY RAGE,* all of which are just...boring. He had no connection to any other character, and thus couldn't have an effective villainous foil. He is the most under-utilized, over-hyped "simple" villain I've ever seen, and it's terribly frustrating that everyone THINKS I'm saying "I don't like Zenos because he's a simple villain" (which is false) when I'm actually saying, "I don't like Zenos because he's *_BAD at being_* a simple villain."

[@ericbright1742]

"In a world where we all move in curves he proceeds in a straight line. And going straight in a world of curves makes things happen." ~ Sir Terry Pratchett, Night Watch

[@Harkmagic]

​@ZekeRaiden he is excellent at being a simple villain. Every one of you complaints is about how he could be more complex.

[@ZekeRaiden]

@@Harkmagic Absolutely not. The Joker is a simple villain, as Garrett said, and he's *literally* who I was contrasting Zenos against. Theatrical, showing emotions, being active, DOING things as opposed to merely TALKING about things, etc., etc. Good simple villains like the Joker thrive, in part, by having more complex villain foils (e.g. Harley) that they interact with and riff off of. But Zenos was so emphatically "I always go alone" that even when he cooperated with people he was effectively by himself. You absolutely, 100% could have written Zenos to be a good simple villain. They just didn't do so.

[@AuspexAO]

@@ZekeRaiden The only time I was ever scared for the life of the characters I loved (including my own character) is when Zenos was on screen. I think sometimes all the complexity of a villain can dilute their agenda. Zenos is a good villain because he's an archetype. The comparison to the Joker is not because he's anything like the Joker. He's not. It's because he serves a similar story purpose. He doesn't care about the villains, he doesn't care about the heroes. He just wants to test his strength against the world. He doesn't need to have complex emotions about it, he's elemental and pure. I would argue that adding too much complexity to Zenos would get you a Star Wars Prequel situation where you took someone intimidating and cool like Darth Vader and burdened them with a lame backstory. Zenos doesn't need to hate sand, he's fine just being The God of War.

[@evrfreez]

27:52 "When we talk with chat a lot, Zenos isn't one of the more popular characters." Garrett, my dear.. chat has been playing you for *fools.* Zenos is both one of the most and least popular characters. Very few people are lukewarm about him.. but let me assure you, that those of us who love him, love him dearly~

[@spuzzz3494]

In regard to the missing dad, Emet's son dying young is a big part of sending him back into a depression spiral and giving up on people again

[@kendric99]

@@Author_Gamer It's in another one of the short stories. Unfortunately, it's from one of the few that have to be purchased, in the short story collection book. I was lucky enough to hear a streamer read it live on stream.

[@OddManeuver]

@@kendric99 “Through his Eyes” briefly touches on it enough though that I think most people can infer that his son’s death was the nail in the coffin. That’s what I got out of it though. Do you know what the collection is specifically called?

[@kendric99]

@@OddManeuver It's called Chronicles of Light

[@siyrean]

@@kendric99 and this is different from what we get from Through His Eyes? I was not aware of this, must track down. I knew about the Zenos backstory one, didn’t know there were more purchase onlys.

[@siyrean]

I can only find the Zenos back story as being new and not on the website. Must be getting it from that one line in Through his Eyes. Bit of a leap to pull depression spiral and giving up on people from it, but it certainly contributed. Gotta also remember the history book points out he was also betrayed by his friends at one point as well as how the Garleans turned out once they were given power over others.

[@OddManeuver]

I’m actually glad Kyle liked the short stories. They’re pretty inoffensive and are basically just a garnish to the complete meal that is the MSQ.

[@kelathos]

I just pray they avoid spoilers for fanfest.

[@Tezasaurus]

@@kelathos I'm imagining their mods going with and steering them past merch and away from certain cosplayers; kind of Protect the Streamers (Ultimate)

[@darkedge221]

The most hilarious about the story with Tataru and Krile tricking Estinien is that Krile faked an echo vision and Estinien thought she saw uncompromising images from his past. And then Tataru and Krile promptly used this assumption as a blackmail material. I dunno if Kyle said to Garrett off cam the name Estinien gave to his blue armor but it's 'Iceheart'. :3 Also Kyle, if u go to the place where Estinien left the flowers, you will see it in-game. Also there's a number of the lodestone stories gets addressed in-game. The only question is when and where.

[@siyrean]

There’s also an excellent Heavensward yellow quest that takes you to those flowers an which you gain the Haurchefant emote for completing

[@FloorTankMain]

@@siyrean those are different flowers! Haurchefant’s flowers are left by Francel and the ones Estinien leaves are in Azys Lla :)

[@siyrean]

@@FloorTankMain pretty sure the quest takes you to the Azys Lla one’s too. I distinctly remember having to stand in sparklies right beside them, looking out from the harsh red and blue deck.

[@gateauxq4604]

Also of vague relevance is that Estinien loves dried squid )a huge snack in Japan) and that’s why he was in Kugane.

[@zecendia]

@@siyrean Correct!Haurchefant just sticks out more in peoples memories on that quest since hes the final location

[@Torlonus]

I remember seeing the Estinien stuff and thinking "Ah yes, he's the back up warrior of light for when we're busy."

[@patrickkershaw4885]

You should have done the Heavensward quest that wraps up the expansion. Do the quest from the person in Fortemps Manor and you will see more about the flowers Estinien has. It's easily one of the best sidequests in the entire game and you should really check it out.

[@TheIvoryDingo]

It even gives an emote

[@laxxboy20]

seconded

[@Bitts8142]

This to be honest. It gave me the feels when I did this quest.

[@jaesaces]

Fun fact: If during the Shadowbringers MSQ you go to Rhalgar's Reach you can actually hear about Arenvald and Fordola fighting primals without the short story

[@kendric99]

It also comes up during the Summoner level 80 capstone quest

[@treebush]

they also need to speak to NPCs after events because they always add new lore but they dont bother to do so

[@levantreven9659]

Arenvald is our Neville Longbottom. If we weren't the main character, it would have been him.

[@Rukdug]

We even both joined the Scions on the same day way back in ARR.

[@SUPERSIDESWIPER]

14:53 on the matter of Fordola. The events of that side story are referenced to in the summoner level 80 job quest.

[@anaalvensleben789]

Garrett: He's not black and white. Kyle: Sometimes he's gold! Garrett: That made me chuckle, good job guys.

[@darkedge221]

Don't worry Garrett and Kyle, you're not alone in your Zenos love. He's beloved enough that the community named a chicken Zenos because it looks like him when FFXIV partnered with a farm as a promotion for the Island Sanctuary. People even requested to Yoshi-P's face to get a minion of the said chicken (I think they named it Henos or something). The Zenos haters are but a vocal minority.

[@Spectacular_Insanity]

I don’t hate Zenos. I just think he’s lame and overused considering he was a one-dimensional character. He was fine in SB, but he should have stayed dead. He massively overstayed his welcome.

[@seekittycat]

I love Zenos he's such a meme. And as a raider and pvp player I can go "oh no he's me". "Look at him awkwardly trying to get the MSQ only players to play with him ouff"

[@EternaltheGrey]

Oh, is that where the picture of Zenos Yae Gallus came from?

[@darkedge221]

@@EternaltheGrey Most probably yes

[@JP11999]

​@@Spectacular_InsanityChad's don't ask for permission 🗿

[@italianradio6148]

I feel as if you've missed something about the Lyse hate. It's not the WoW Twitch folks that hated Lyse the most, it was the stormblood FFXIV community that did. If you look back there was a poll done on the JP audience around the end of stormblood talking about "Your most hated character". First place? Asahi. Second? Lyse. In my personal experience, it was the broad FFXIV community that hated her, not the tiny (comparatively) Twitch community. Of the content creators that started since the WoW exodus that I watch, none of them have hated Lyse. I love your videos. Thanks for making such wonderful content

[@LovelyRitaholic]

7:36 I don't remember if they only say this in the side stories, but Varis is the son of Solus' oldest son, who has never been named up to this point, who died relatively young. Which is why the war of succession after Solus' death was between Varis and his uncle Titus (who is only named in stormblood side stories).

[@OddManeuver]

The deceased son recently got named in the new Endwalker short story if you haven’t gotten to read it yet.

[@AutumnSteven]

I think what makes the side stories being outside of the main game ok is that they truly are side stories (and they truly are short). They fill in some gaps for people who do in-depth lore examinations and sometimes add little extras to characters but they can be skipped if you don’t like reading.

[@ninjafoxgamesgeekery]

Yeah, they are truly extra insight or details and nowhere near story necessary like WoW is bad about.

[@Asmodean1111]

Lyse hate was a big thing while Stormblood MSQ was current as far as in my circles. But I also put a lot of the hate at the time of Stormblood not being a focused story like Heavensward had been and it being more about the geopolitical events happening with Doma and Ala Mhigo. People loved to trash on Stormblood's story, but it made up for it with amazing Trials. Also postpatch msq helped a lot. Edit: The flowers can be found in Azys Lla post 3.3 msq (or at least can be found related to a side quest at some point.), so the side story being part of Stormblood's side stories would be at another time. Estinien also has side story related to Dragoon story related to 30-50 and 60-70 job stories.

[@MirroredDreamscape]

Me, I just hated Lyse because she took Yda away from me. I had a lovable goofball and she got replaced by this kinda annoying ball of angst that was somehow at the same time super brash and shortsighted while also having this weird lack of self confidence. I'm mostly over my old hangups with Lyse by now, but I still really resent the fact that she retroactively demolishes Yda by making that whole persona a total scam. Maybe I'm in the minority for being so attached to Yda's airheaded lightheartedness through ARR and HW, but I feel like we had enough serious and complex characters and didn't need to add one more to the pile, especially when it came at the expense of losing one of the few genuine slapstick comedy characters on the roster.

[@Keldiur]

The problem I have with Lyse is that she changes very little throughout 4.0, and she is our only connective thread to very separate stories in Doma and AM. The post patch does help a lot in all those hangups, but I still get whiplash with the going back and forth just thinking about it.

[@nahuel3433]

I'll never understand the lacking focus critique for SB when HW was WAY worse than it. You are right in Niddhog's doorstep and whoop, you gotta go back to Ul'dah because we got some info about Ilberd You are right on the pope's heals and whoop you gotta go back to Dravania, get involved on a cheese war and some old sharlayan ruins.

[@the1ben]

@@MirroredDreamscape A friend and I have had lengthy discussions about how pointless the Yda/Lyse switch was and how it ruined a perfectly good character.

[@RavinousStudios]

People's fondness for certain solo duties is one of the reasons we have New Game+. That's the only way people can replay them without rolling a whole new character.

[@Jon0001]

I like solo duties they are nice interactive narrative moments and they keep progessively getting better in my opinion. The 6.3 solo duty is quite amazing to me.

[@inoob26]

The way I see why Elidibus changing his voice to not of his own is that Ascians are more reliant on "becoming that person" when they possess someone while Zenos is more of "I like everything about me more" and only bothered to alter his voice onto the body cuz who else is gonna have the BULK that is Zenos' original body

[@jellysharkbat]

Yes! I also see it as a matter of experience. Ascians have lots, and lots of practice at being someone else because it's necessary if they're planning to trick people into doing what they want. Zenos maybe doesn't and probably honestly doesn't care to learn.

[@aliciafraser1835]

Huh... I always just figured they were sick with whatever the body has when they take it, voice and all. Unless they go through the effort to fully change said body.

[@aliciafraser1835]

Stuck with* because mobile KZbin doesn't let me edit

[@ArakDBlade]

I figured maybe we were hearing Zenos's internal voice or how he sounds to himself rather than what he would actually sounds like.

[@r2dezki]

Yeah, I was thinking that for an all-powerful ascian changing their voice is child's play. And he would probably want to do that to masquerade as Zenos, so... Zenos doesn't need to do that.

[@NagaTales]

The addition of the "Meanwhile in [X]" scenes was a brilliant move that basically solved the problem that Stormblood stumbled the most over: how to have things happen in the WoL's absence. Up through Stormblood 4.0, it's clear they didn't really want to show much that the WoL themselves wasn't present for, except for ominous teasers. With late Stormblood into Shadowbringers, they clearly pivoted away from that and decided the only way to keep the pace of events on the Source going was to insert vignettes of what was happening. To give a sense that things on the Source didn't just stop (like the complete narrative halt that happened in Gyr Abania while the WoL was in the Far East), they let the other characters have agency in the WoL's absence, and that payed off HUGELY. Estinien and Gaius have a lot more character because we get to see them take action on their own, Zenos starts really cementing his position as a threat, world events keep advancing naturally, and by the time you hit 5.5 and into Endwalker... the background momentum locks into the momentum of the main narrative smoothly. It's something that books do all the time, but is hard to pull off well in other media because it can do more harm to the pacing than good when it doesn't stick the landing, so big ups to Ishikawa and the rest of the writing team for adapting that to the RPG format so well.

[@ChrisMorray]

Solo duties are alright in my book. I just see them as more interactive cutscenes. I do think it's best used when the WoL isn't present, since it just makes more sense to have interactive beats from the most relevant perspective around (which usually is your own). That said though, there will be more variety in the future. Y'shtola's solo duty in SB patches was more of a test run with just basic white mage abilities, but they've gotten creative during the patches and eventually they use it really effectively. Glad you found the side stories by the way! I agree that some of it should be in the game, but it's clear to me they just didn't find the time or place for it in the story but wanted to tell it anyway. Everyone of them is worthwhile lore for lore nerds. PS: Zenos is wildly popular, but there are some Zenos haters who are very loud. Most people enjoy him. Some people aren't into him and that just makes them creeped out by his obsession.

[@PokeRangerZ]

An essay about my beloved Zenos which ends with a clip from one of the best seasons of Power Rangers?!? Best video yet. Keep up the good work!!

[@knostic]

'Gaius and Estenien in Garlemald' is the buddy cop movie we have always wanted.

[@hobogray6385]

I'm glad Kyle likes the side stories. One thing I don't ever really see mentioned on the side story point is that they're *specifically* released during the Rising event. They're part of the celebration on the lodestone for the relaunch of the game. We get 4 short stories that are supplemental to flesh out the world that was reborn to celebrate. (Which is also why we have the formula breaking "Tales from the Twilight" when EW stories are "Tales from the Dawn", since Covid delayed everything for 6 months.)

[@fabiannarvaezdegarcia619]

For extra lore and shipping power, estinien's armor is named Iceheart in honor of ysayle so personally i take it as a mix of respect and love by wearing her close to him

[@ericbright1742]

Regarding the Love him or Hate him character of Zenos, my opinion on him evolved. Even before he died, I loathed him as a character, but I felt his story was worth telling. He was a bored psychopath who only found any worth in others in the moments where (to steal a phrase from Firefly) they were dangling over the lip of the volcano, and he could see their real self. He saw nothing as a challenge, and everything was fake. He lets us live because he sees something in us, the spark of determination. And then we finally face him in Ala Mhigo, and he has to make an effort. He has to go all out. He has to hop in Shinryu to face us, and it is still not enough. And in the end, he basically steals our kill. I felt disgusted. I felt dirty. I felt entirely unsatisfied... and I agreed with your opinion, it was a perfect end for him. Zenos was a static character that didn't change, but had a story worth telling. And then he came back, and I didn't know what to feel. He became almost laughable with his obsession with the Warrior of Light... preferably laughing from a safe distance. At the same time, I trusted the writers to tell a good story with this character. Ultimately, my opinion on Zenos is summed up by the phrase "I hate you..." spoken with no hate, but a kind of incredulous, exasperated respect.

[@dahZeee]

There is such a staggering amount of dialog in the game, that voice acting everything would pretty ridiculous. They have to choose carefully which scenes to voice act, and since they can't even voice act all of MSQ, they definitely don't voice act the majority of side content. Shadowbringers 5.0 itself is 15+ hours of cutscenes (including non-voiced, just using the journal). That being said, the amount of voiced cutscenes has been steadily increasing over the years, but the amount/runtime of cutscenes has been increasing as well.

[@Grig_Orig]

Do the yellow side quest "The Paths We Walk" and find out if you haven't already. Edit reason: spoilers.

[@edstairs4888]

He even named his new armor after her.

[@rajabuta]

​@@edstairs4888 yeah, that was a sweet short story

[@Yume03]

Not sure how they missed that if they read the short story. The flowers were for Ysale and he had a whole finding himself again after vengeance arc. I loved that story and his character development overall ❤

[@rajabuta]

@@Yume03 garrett does not like outside material because of WoW PTSD. Kyle started reading some when he was sick 🤣

[@Qrczaqq]

Jesus, you could tell them to play that side quest, and not just spoil it best moments entirely.

[@Ower8x]

That said while the way he conducts himself and the voice goes through quite a changed ... his principles are surprisingly consistent through you would need to look up 1.0 story for him. He refused to take part in Project Meteor calling it genocide not conquest .... and even at a point aided the Eoreans with the reason that he wants to conquerd them not turnt the land into charred remains ... In ARR one of his top lieutenant was a Rhogadin and we are even shown that Gaius values skill over origin ... If you then listen to to the things he says during the Pretorium and his reaction to the Ultima spell its shows he holds to these principles with his famous meme line showing him appealed by the indiscriminate devastation it brought This is reinforced in main Stormblod when we learn Gaius as a ruler was quite fair and reasonable trying to actually incorporate the people as equals into the empire ... there is a side quest that introduces you to Black Rose quite early ... it later leads to a beast tribe story but we learn that the Empire was experimenting with Black Rose in Gir Abania and when Gaius Learned about it he put a stop to it and had all the supplies destroyed - of course at that point they already had the Shadowhunter story at least somewhat prepared But it clearly fits with what was established before about him and his principles

[@KharaChmiel]

As for the "Lyse hate" or "Zenos hate"...the devs have come out and said they write the story at a pace where they are usually about 2 expansions ahead. So they don't really change a character's appearance based on the words of the community.

[@xenomemphate]

Remember how Zenos takes over Shinryu? That was my thoughts on what he meant when he said "Gorge on their strength" - he wants to possess Zodiark or Hydaelyn.

[@inoob26]

Man I wish B plots involving Gaius and/or Estinien gets added at side content eventually

[@ericbright1742]

A while back, these two suggested a spinoff DMC/MGR:R style action combat game called Final Fantasy XIV: Estinien, where you play through his antics during Stormblood and Shadowbringers, and I am _all for it!_ EDIT: They brought it up again! Still all for it!

[@truthless4720]

There are some great narrative solo duties. My favorite is in Endwalker though.

[@jlGenozzV]

Same, I'm really excited for their reaction for EW

[@firedrake110]

I think of my favourite eight, seven of them are in EW lmao

[@LucificNight]

I love the switch in perspective to Gaius & Estinien! It simultaneously mixes things up and keeps things fresh; While keeping you informed of the happenings back on the Source; And makes the world feel alive, like events don't stop whenever the WoL isn't there. It's basically an emotional/expository/world-building hat-trick! The fact that it's focused on 2 of the most badass characters in the game, both major players in their own right? Just the cherry on the top.

[@farli]

Each year for The Rising, a series of short stories are released for each expansion that's active at the time of the anniversary. These often touch on backstory and offscreen incidents for characters that don't make it "on screen" since it's not directly relevant to the Warrior of Light. These include certain post HW plot points (including the question mentioned in the video about a certain set of armor). They're really good and worth checking out when you have time. (Also Fordola returns later in the Summoner questline at level 80 during SHB.)

[@neoshadow5192]

Solo duties are some of my favourite parts of the game, you couldn’t pull off what they did with the Thancred v Ranjit duty in group content

[@pwii]

I can't wait for Endwalker videos. FFXIV turned me into a vampire feeding on others' reactions to the game

[@SventFulgur]

There's also an in game quest that shows that Estinien visits Azis Lha (sp?) to leave flowers for Ysayle

[@baneh1329]

During the first time I saw Zeno's my friend speech I immediately thought "Oh cool we have a Joker now "

[@KyrialArthian]

5:30 I don't think the decision as to whether certain scenes get voice acted is typically a narrative decision. Yes, the example you mentioned with the Exarch's flashbacks likely WAS, but most of the time, I think it comes down more to "can we get schedules worked out to get voice actors into the studio and can we afford to do so" than anything else. Heck, at some point in the Shadowbringers patches is when Covid hit, and that caused even more problems with this. I think that started around 5.4 though. 6:10 Actually, it's been shown in a few scenes that when Ascians are possessing a body, they can choose to speak in that body's voice (for deception's sake, or just because), or with their own voice. So it comes down to the decision of the Ascian in question, which voice they are using. Zenos, of course, would only ever bother to use his own voice. 18:30 The baby dragon is actually not only in those stories, but the entire series of Stormblood DRG job quests revolve around helping him. Basically, his... friend? Father? Someone's he's close to had a mate in Nidhogg's brood who fled Eorzea back when the Dragonsong War started, so that she wouldn't have to fight her mate. The quest series has you helping this baby dragon find her so you can let her know the war is over and she can come back and be with her mate again. At some point, Estinien shows up and helps you out, and in the end, gives you a set of armor identical to his, which is the level 70 DRG set. 27:20 That's actually a good point that I hadn't thought much about. My guess on why Zenos wanted Elidibus's secrets would be that he knows the Ascians are the WoL's ultimate foes, so maybe he's trying to find some way to get our attention? ....Or maybe the writers just needed a reason for Zenos to find out about Zodiark and Hydaelyn. :P 30:00 Honestly, I don't think the Zenos hate has ever evolved over time. The people who hate him at the end hated him from the beginning. They don't like that he's a simple, straightforward villain; they only like the complex, layered villains. That's not to say everyone who hated him at the start still hates him; some grew to like him. But I think everyone who still hates him by the end of the story, hated him from the start, and their reasons for it have never changed. 31:30 I get the feeling they just wanted you to do that so you had background when it came up in MSQ and didn't seem to come out of nowhere, rather than because it was some hype, awesome thing. 35:13 My interpretation of this when I was at this point in the game (by which I mean this is NOT a spoiler; just what I was thinking of this line when 5.0 was still brand new), was that Zenos wanted to basically turn Zodiark into Shinryu 2.0 and relive the favorite moment of his life, possibly after forcing us to do the same with Hydaelyn so that we could combat him.

[@Kekira]

Spoooooilers

[@tttzzzuuutttzzzuuu]

Correct me if im wrong but the Estinien flowers were for Ysayle. At some point in the story, you can see them in Azys Lla at the end of the first platform you arrive at.

[@TheIvoryDingo]

Something I like about the role play solo duties is that they give players a very basic version of a job that they may not have picked up a try. I know I certainly hadn't given a try with Gunbreaker before the Thancred vs Ranjit solo duty.

[@siyrean]

I never would have thought a full video could be made from those little “meanwhile” asides, let alone keep me engaged and grinning like an idiot through the entire thing, but you got me. I’m glad Kyles reading the short stories, because while not necessary, they do help flesh out a lot of what would not make sense to include directly in game. I also recommend checking out the Stormblood Dragoon class quest. I love the Estinien Gaius story but the one thing that makes me roll my eyes every time is how Gaius notes a missing Centurion and from that extrapolates that clearly he must have become possessed by an Ascian and is on their way to the capital. Like that’s your logical string of thoughts? Not that he was killed or captured on the battlefield? Nope, must be a new Ascien possession. 😂

[@xhlman]

well, about the time flow. 「A space of a single hour in your home world, an entire year might pass in the first,and the reverse could also be true.」 when we came to the first, Exarch did said it to us

[@vexhardt211]

It’s important to remember that they do not have infinite time, budget, or guaranteed access to their voice actors during the patch cycle. They have 4~ months to develop and test it and the VAs they need may not all be available or it may be cost prohibitive depending on the scale of the patch content.

[@tngdragon]

Waaaay back in ARR when you're with Kan-E and the other early Alliance members - she informs you all that Solus failed to name a successor after the "untimely death" of his son, thereby leading to the 'War of Succession" in Garlemald - a war fought between the grandson (Varis) and his uncle> That war was won by Varis, (and you see a cutscene of Varis spitting on Solus' coffin.) So Solus had a son who died quite some time beforehand and as I understand it, shortly after Varis was born.

[@edstairs4888]

You might just be reacting to a small sample of the community, there is a large amount of people that love Zenos. He's my favorite antagonist in the game. I could talk for hours about why I love his character and everything he does.

[@Korynith]

There is a large amount (me included!) but man the Zenos haters are VERY vocal.

[@siyrean]

Everyone loves Emet Selch (edit: by everyone I mean a majority agree he is a good character, not a good person) but there is a strong amount of people who dislike Zenos. The fandom is definitely split on him.

[@tibowmew]

I mean, to be fair, there are people who dislike Emet-Selch too, but they're overwhelmed by the insane love most people have for him. I mean, he HAS killed and enslaved thousands of people and basically said he sees humanity as cattle and therefore doesn't mind committing atrocities against them.

[@MissKashira]

@@tibowmew And never takes it back. *SPOILERS FOR ENDWALKER* People think he's upset in Elpis hearing what he did, but what upset him was the suggestion that he'd give up before finishing the job. The most he gives us is to admit the methods of the Ancients wouldn't have gotten them as far as we'd gotten. He acted like 12,000 years of genocide was a prank Venat and Hermes pulled on him. Not even a little bit sorry, and I love him for it.

[@Kritigri]

I generally like solo duties, they're more involved than other MMO single-player quest objectives like "go kill six of these". They can be challenging sometimes, too.

[@Keldiur]

The Meanwhile segment for me is something I respect FF14 for doing immensely throughout the game. That is, that the Warrior of Light is not needed to continue the story. The world keeps moving without them. Even if they die, the world would move forward and not instantly collapse. There would be future Warriors of Light like how there have been countless in the past. We just happen to be in this time period with this one.

[@ironshield1342]

there is a quest after heavenwards that explains where he was going with the flowers

[@a365andromeda]

If you want more about what Estinien was up to post 3.3. There was a series of side quests released in 3.3 that start in Ishgard, The Paths We Walk is the starting quest. It's meant as an epilogue to Heavensward, but you do learn some details about Estinien which the story Kyle brought up fleshes out more. Also, if you want more Fordola, the lv80 Summoner quest basically is the game version of that story Kyle also mentioned. Might make for a good chill stream if you want to check them out.

[@Fiarlia]

Not even finished with the video yet and I just feel like smiling. No context on what part made me start smiling, of course.

[@brendamcvooo6460]

Exactly…😊😊😊….stuff😊😊😊…things😊😊😊, words😊😊😊

[@SPAMCAN29]

Yea.... Weeerrrrlllll *redacted* *redacted* ... Then *redacted*

[@bakashinobi42]

On the topic of solo duties, Endwalker has some solo duties I really liked. And some of the ones I liked people **really** disliked for personal and valid reasons. I do feel they get better with them as they go on and some of those solo duties add a lot to the game experience. I do recognize that they can be very clunky but also add some interesting twists to the gameplay and narrative experience.

[@josephsheehan6079]

I don’t respect people who disliked that solo duty. It was extremely good

[@Kassilphe]

I'm one of those who hate the solo duties you refer to. I would like if the game gave the option of "easy" from the beginning. I KNOW I'm bad at this stuff so don't let me play until I am like 80% done and then have to do it again because I failed...

[@etchyasketch2851]

Another week another episode of me holding myself back and giving you guys a :)

[@tjl9458]

If you do the SMN level 80 quest, it touches on Fordola too. It covers the same kind of material as the short story. So, yes it's in the game too.

[@jellysharkbat]

I am not in love with solo duties. 😂 Also I like the meanwhiles. It's a good reminder that while we're off in a different world with a different timeline, our world hasn't stopped running. People are still living their lives, creating disasters (*cough*Zenos*cough*) with massive implications, and we don't need to be there for any of these to occur. It's gonna happen with or without us and we'll just have to deal when we do return.

[@smilerat8070]

I personally love solo duties, but I also recognize that not every bit of content is for everyone.

[@darkvalkyrie7]

I just thought it was super odd that they were asking for more combat... but didn't like the combat bits

[@DreadKyller]

One thing I find is that Garret will tend to start complaining if the game starts going too deep into all the small lore details. Yet also dislikes the idea of lore being available outside of the game. The stories outside the game are geared towards the part of the userbase that are in it for all the lore, the main game provides plenty of it for most people but for those who really want to get invested there's access to more lore without forcing it on people who don't care. This being said, please be careful Kyle, many of those stories will provide pretty massive spoilers about things you haven't seen yet, best not to read most of them until you become current.

[@Kekira]

If he sticks to it by expansion and patch he'll be fine. But yeah that does irk me, I feel like Garrett would enjoy a lot of the side stories, but if he was forced to do it in game he would probably hate it. They're optional, but reward you with a little extra character meat.

[@KLGChaos]

I believe there is something about Varis' dad out there, but I'm not sure of the source. There is a Shadowbringers side story that's really good called "Through His Eyes", but I'd wait until 5.3 is done to read it.

[@deadnoobie2859]

32:30 Black Rose was/is important because its the Sources half of the calamity of Light that we were working to prevent in Shadowbringers. Without doing the sidequests about it, you would miss some of that context. Not only does it flesh out the full context of what is happening, but it also shows that your friends and acquaintances are working towards your end goal even when you aren't around. It fleshes out the story, world, and characters much more if you know about that part of the story. That is why the community felt you should/needed to do that side quest.

[@NibelungJ]

13:29 If you don't know what the flowers are for, it means you didn't played the epilogue of Heavensward. There is a yellow quest inside Fortemps manor that unlocks after you kill Nidhogg for good, and makes you walk around all the zones of HW checking out the aftermatch of the entire Dragonsong War. And then you'll learn what Estinien did with that bouquet. It's about one hour of dialogue. Just remember it's time bubble happens before you start the Griffin plot.

[@miqoteshalott]

You'd also have a pretty good idea about what Estinien is up to if you had played Dragoon. He's in the Stormblood job quests.

[@miqoteshalott]

Also Garrett have you done your Summoner level 80 quest yet? From what you said here I think you may want to.

[@MoonwalkSA]

The flowers from Estinian are actually *completely* in the game, you guys just didn't do the followup quest to revisit the various plot threads of Heavensward yet. It's in Fortemps Manor and is called "The Paths We Walk." Highly recommended.

[@hounddog5]

It's not necessarily winter. Garlemald is in a cold mountainous inhospitable region. Centuries ago, they were driven from their more temperate homelands by the magic using races. This is one of the reasons they have a hate boner for everyone. EE 177. Other than that, you should revisit this video in the future, there's a LOT of :-) to various things you've said. Great video as usual!

[@SPAMCAN29]

I see Garlemald a little like England. Spring: rain, summer: rain, Autumn: rain, winter: rain, sometimes more rain, sometimes less but always a reasonable chance of rain, just replace rain with snow.

[@Zeet1]

The latest few expansions the do up to 10 side stories and they’re short and sweet and add more color to characters and the world. They’re very well received in the FF community. They release about 5, weekly, sometime after the .0 patch and some again after .3 - the ones from Shadowbringers are really good. Gives you some extra moments with characters

[@hobogray6385]

The short stories are released specifically during the Rising event. The FFXIV exclusive event that doesn't have a real world equivalent, since it celebrates the successful relaunch of the game. You get 4 stories every Rising. :)

[@Snowmanse]

Been waiting for this one for a while, the "meanwhile, in the empire" was one of the highlights of the story for me.

[@sitarsenshi8512]

More about Emet’s son is mentioned in a pretty interesting side story about him. I would love to hear your guys thoughts on the side stories!

[@TOjJeto]

No idea if anyone mentioned it, but since you guys finish the role quest, there are lvl 80 quest back home with each job quest npcs. SMN is rather interesting so I recommend Garrett checks it out.

[@TheIvoryDingo]

Kyle did a solo stream where he did the ones relevant to his jobs. Afaik Garrett had not done that

[@temisu_namisu]

With the voice acting "issues", there's probably some budget reasons but a lot likely are scenes that are not ready. We know that details are still worked on right up until release. Even some of the key story points are not final until very late into development long after the date has been announced. As much as we'd all really love to have everything acted out, it probably does just come down to schedules and readiness. If something isn't ready when the voice schedule is, it may end up cut altogether. Makes you wonder how many scenes are mostly voiced but one incomplete part at the time of voicing means the whole scene is not voiced...

[@lissyraineart7726]

As to who varis dad is please read the side stories Tales from the Shadows (check with someone to make sure you read ones which arent potentially spoilery). This fleshes out more about Emet and explains about Varis' father.

[@Anonumia13]

If you want to know where Estinien was taking the flower bouquet, you need to do the yellow side quest called "The Paths We Walk" given by House Fortemps Manservant.

[@midnightmiqo]

I like solo duties, I think they are a really neat narrative tool, especially with the introduction of the Roleplay Duties where we step in someone else's shoes. My only issue was with the length of them in ShB, but I think they do better about that. ----- Re: Elidibus, except for that on moon scene, anytime we have seen Elidibus labeled as Elidibus, is he voiced? Are the scenes where Elidibus is pretending to be Zenos the only voiced one (i.e. does the text box say Zenos or Elidibus?). I am curious if you only hear Elidibus voice (again, minus that one moon scene) is him pretending to be Zenos. ---- Side Game: FFXIV: The Dragon and the Wolf ---- I think I just realized that the villains of FF are often the superhero trope of the strong hero's foils are the smart/plotting villains. We're the bull in the china shop of their well laid plans. ---- Here for the Power Rangers in Space call out. It was a surprisingly good arc.

[@tyler5013]

I love how much unintentional foreshadowing happened

[@noOtherFs]

The story of how Estinien ended up with the new armor is part of the DRG Stormblood class quest, iirc. It's really interesting, even if not the best

[@destinykazuya]

The Estinien bouquet doesn't get addressed only in the short story. There is a yellow quest inside Fortemps Manor called "Tales from the Dragonsong War" that is a sort of epilogue/capstone quest for Heavensward that has you go on a pilgrimage through all of the Heavensward zones, talk to the people you've met along the way and reflect on what happened in that expansion. At one point you get to Azys Lla and see the bouquet placed there, with a sweet blurb attached to it.

[@deeeebeeeee]

You find out where the flowers were placed if you do the side quest given to you in Fortemps Manor. If you're feeling nostalgic for HW, it's a really good quest for that.

[@TheoVorster]

When I first finished 5.0, my immediate reaction to those final lines of Zenos was “omg Zenos want the WoL to participate in Primal vore with him”.

[@lorcan4]

The flower s are for lady iceheart he left it at the flat form near the place where she died and the new armor of eistineen is base or has a reference for lady iceheart

[@Merusdraconis]

The big difference between the WoW side stories and the FFXIV side stories is that the FFXIV writing team treats the in-game story as needing to stand on its own feet, so anything in the side stories that becomes important later gets re-introduced.

[@uwu-cx2yc]

25:10 Both Garrett & Kyle REALLY nail why some of us adore Zenos' wild card one-track mind so much! Zenos killing his low poly dad & spiting Black Rose is *such* a "HERE COMES ZENOS WITH A STEEL CHAIR!!" moment. And it gets *even better* (not spoilers anymore below imo) ...when you catch that Elidibus & Emet planned to bring Twin extinctions (aka Calamities) to both The First & The Source in tandem to cause the Rejoining (kill all shards & everything will Rejoin).... & in Exarch's timeline branch they *really did succeed*, as the WoL in Exarch's (not Crystal Tower G'raha) timeline branch died from the Black Rose some time after killing Zenolidibus's vessel (like in the trailer). So not only Exarch transporting your WoLs to the First rescued it... the WoL not being there to kill Zenos's body allowed Zenos to STOP THE BLACK ROSE from causing an extinction in the Source of our timeline!! That was sooo mindblowing to me, such an eerie yet SICK turn of the story for me 🤯

[@UncleFenris]

I was successfully comment-baited: "that Baldesion woman" refers to Krile, not Tataru. But I'm sure they're both working hard together while the Scions are indisposed, so it's academic

[@PaulaVieira]

19:50 i think the thing here with his sinister look is that he's essentially approving of unleashing black rose into the world, and in the _original_ timeline that was the beginning of the end for the scions/seventh astral era. It brought on the rejoining. Like we saw in the CGI intro: the WoL defeated Elidizenos, the Empire was cornered, they probably unleashed Black Rose at that time. When Graha Tia started gacha-pulling scions, though, that changed the Alliance's strategy, which in turn changed the Empire's response-- they were not as cornered as they'd originally been-- and Estinien's entry into the fray meant that Gaius' factory-destroying efforts were more effective. Zenos was able to reach daddy dearest before Black Rose was unleashed. Varis' terrible, no good, very bad decision to engage in chemical warfare was successfully thwarted.

[@luc1ferous]

I love the solo duties of all varieties!

[@gamfc]

I find it very interesting that you guys said that we prevented the 8th calamity by time traveling, because I didn't see it that way during my playthrough. Yes, time traveling was part of the method we used to prevent the calamity but I placed importance on the parallel of "overwhelming light" in the First and "black rose" of the source. If you remember both Exarch's "powerpoint presentation" about the source + 13 shards and Urianger's explanation of light and darkness: Calamity comes to the source when one of the shards are experiencing an abundance of an element and the effects of the shard's circumstance bleeds into the Source. For example, if a shard were to be overwhelmed by water aspected ether, the shard would eventually be destroyed and absorbed back into the Source, and creating a flood of water on the Source with its joining. Now using that knowledge to speak about the relationship between the First and the Source: Urianger said darkness represents activity and Light represents stasis, and the first was literally being overwhelmed by too much Light. At the same time, Black Rose was being developed and was getting closer to being released across the Source, and we heard from the explanation of how Black Rose works is that it basically halts the bodily functions of the victims, or in another word, kills them by putting them into stasis. I kind of appreciated this parallel of the two world's impending doom by similar effect, stasis. And by saving the First from being eaten up by Light, we also saved the light aspected ether from bleeding into the Source, or by some weird parallel, by Black Rose. Of course, we couldn't have done any of this without time traveling being a thing to begin with, so I guess there's that. :) Sorry if this made no sense. I thought it interesting how our experiences differed ever so slightly!

[@Awksipherd]

Solo duties are by no means created equal, both in terms of mechanics, as well as narrative impact. Without any spoilers, I will just say that I do feel they stepped up their game in both aspects (mechanical and narrative) for the solo duties for the Endwalker expansion.

[@Norbert_Sattler]

You can head-canon the voice matter like this: Elidibus wants to be seen as Zenos, so he makes an active effort to sound like him. Zenos too wants to be recognized as Zenos so he has no reason to disguise his voice as that of his host. And in the confrontation with Varis he even wants them to recognize him for who he truly is, so he too would make an active effort to sound like his own voice.

[@fredt1983]

If you go back to Azys Lla and walk backwards you can see part of Estinien's flower offering to people, along with a few other locations if you look for it like alpha/omega's adventures. Near the end of the video you forgot something, but you'll quickly be reminded as you progress :p

[@DisappointedRaccoon696]

Estinian and the baby dragon were part of the Dragoon quest line.

[@AuspexAO]

Tataru is basically a "fixer" in the criminal sense, ha ha. I like FFXIV acknowledges that understanding finance and logistics is a super important role and it's one that none of the heroes really understand. Alphinaud especially is a rich kid who has never had to pinch a penny in his life, and I imagine that him and Estinien are exactly the same in that sense. Two rich boys, scared of the treasurer.

[@lampdevil]

All of the various speculations about Elidibus's deal are SUPER interesting to me, because they outline just who Elidibus as a character IS at this point in the story, that's hard to fully grasp as a person that's up to date on MSQ. The questions being asked are excellent questions, and I certainly won't even take a stab at answering them here, but they've given me some food for thought about the guy!

[@stevespain6445]

Shots every-time Garrett says something sacrilegious :P

[@DLMoridin]

During SB I thought Zenos was a very flat and one-note villan. and that our ability to beat him and then him fused with shinryu at ala'mhigo to not be done right on a power scaling thing. we go from barely being able to touch him to perhaps we're making him work for it to easy win. while my damage and hp growth didnt feel like it matched what we were being shown visually and there wasnt anything narratively about us getting stronger. admittedly part of that may have been that i started with full augmented HW tome gear and maxxed out Relic that i only had to swap out at about 66-67 and even then it did not feel like i was getting stronger that much. Unlike with Ranjit where, for me, it always felt like we were strong enough to beat him, it was just his combat style being new to us and our objective to get minfillia and leave that lets him almost win the first time.

[@evrfreez]

No spoilers here, but regarding Zenos and that line about Zodiark and Hydaelyn and gorging on strength and stuff.. I took that to mean that he was gonna do like he did with Shinryu. And kinda.. fuse with one? Or both? There were so many theories about this in the time span between Shadowbringers and Endwalker, it's fun to see you guys living the wait as well, taking things slowly to have time to digest and theorize like we did.

[@EionBlue]

I think people were down on Zenos at this particular point because it felt like he wasn't utilised well enough prior to this point, you just fight him as Shinryu and you're done. But as you guessed, there's more Zenos coming and I think people responded (mostly) positively about it all in the end.

[@Adu767]

Remember that time in the First moves differently than in the Source, and it can change unpredictably. Thancred spent 5 years there when for us it was only a matter of days. The Exarch said things had become relatively equal but... that's relative. It's just the writers hand-waving and saying "don't worry about it, the Norvrandt adventure will get time to breathe, and the situation in the Source will only progress as much as it needs to for Endwalker." Honestly it's a clever solution, otherwise the Shadowbringers story wouldn't have time to breathe or worry about its own problems because we'd be in a hurry to get back to the Source.

[@Adu767]

7:34 Varis only became emperor fairly recently when his father (who he hated) died. This was a development that happened in ARR, but was quickly forgotten by everyone because it involved characters we had never met and didn't become relevant until halfway through Heavensward.

[@Adu767]

29:55 Zenos haters can STFU. Literally the only reason Zenos gets hate is because people compare him to Emet, and are mad that Zenos stuck around a lot longer than Emet did. But BOTH are amazing in their own right, and for different reasons. It's not a villain competition, and they don't serve the same role either. A story has room for both sympathetic and psychotic villains. The dynamic between Zenos and the WoL is so much fun and has so much potential, but people are blinded by their desire for yet ANOTHER sad-boy villain.

[@Artnotavailable]

35:55 now all I'm picturing is Zenos using the ascians like batteries for the machine. Does he have to remember to swap them out? Do paragons provide more energy than regular ascians?

[@PumpkinHeadLemure]

I'm a huge Zenos fan... one of my fav chars in the game. Our insane dear friend that wants to kill us. I think too many people look at his motives in such a shallow view because off hand he is kind of shallow and does seem to have very shallow motives. I don't think he is that shallow though =\ I think he's horribly tragic. Looking forward to see your thoughts once you get caught up.