Stargate Lore: The Lilin

[@FattyMcFox]

Well it isn't all that far from the show, Teyla's ancestors were modified by the wraith to be "tastier" to the Wraith. That wraith could gotten that idea by feeding on a Lilin born person, but then found that the parents of such beings were maybe a little too strong to contend with. So that wraith tried to make something as tasty, but not as prone to fighting back. We then get Teyla and the others that can sense the wraith, but don't have feeding organs or DNA from the Ancients that likely gave them an edge. It also gives the Ancients a little more diversity in method. We know they had Genetic engineering abilities, but we never saw much of it, only their left over tech. We also know the ancients could be sadistic, in "Hot zone" they were revealed to have made a nano weapon that tormented those infected with violent hallucinations before killing them. I like that they are furthering the idea that pre ascension ancients could be just as flawed and twisted as modern humans, subverting the "ancient wise race that we are a degenerate imitation of" trope and making the ancients feel like humans are an accurate reflection of them. The show and the characters had an image of how the ancients behaved from their interactions with Oma and other ascended, who would have discard the worst qualities on their path to ascension. This kind of story goes "yeah, they weren't as perfect as we keep thinking they are, and maybe worse than us at times." It makes humans ascending ( with help ) seem less far fetched, because we might almost be there morally.

[@ladymecha8718]

Well, if it’s not on film, it’s only secondary canon at best.

[@Maelum_]

I like them as a one-off race that's Encountered, Plus their story (along with other books) further emphasises the splintering of the Ancients after fleeing Atlantis and realizing the situation on Earth, which I find intriguing.

[@sg-24]

@Maelum_ that’s a fair point of view and something I agree does sound interesting.

[@windgraceproject]

I am not a huge fan of this. Like you said, it's too much added baggage to our real world. That being said, having remnants of this race being discovered on another world COULD provide a pretty compelling story. Maybe stumble across a Victorian Age level society that's dealing with creatures they claim are vampires.

[@juniorg8162]

i think that is something i would enjoy seeing in a future Stargate show

[@windgraceproject]

@@juniorg8162 If there is one thing I want to see in a new Gate show, it's exploring more new worlds!

[@summerfield738]

They fell like they came out of a fan fiction. A hard no for me

[@samarat1]

Ooo do a lore video The Daedalus Variations aliens. That would be great please and thank you

[@sg-24]

@samarat1 I would, but I already did that video for GateWorld.

[@MrDj232]

Let me get this straight. There's an ancient race of vampires that cannot breed, have normal human lifespans, did nothing to help fight the Ori despite that being their sole purpose for existing, and probably should have gone extinct the moment people started owning radios? Yep, that sounds like a bad fanfic to me. Also, can't believe you had aliens being killed by music and you didn't use a clip from Mars Attacks.

[@sg-24]

@MrDj232 I have never seen that movie.

[@MrDj232]

@@sg-24 kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYDHfq2vrNSImKc

[@5226-p1e]

@@sg-24 i thought the star trek clip sufficed lol.

[@danielpiechowicz2898]

Since it's a multiverse, anything and everything is possible.

[@sg-24]

@Danuel Piechowicz true, and Stargate did set up a multiverse. But I’d argue just because everything and anything is possible, doesn’t mean you have to write everything and anything.

[@joncarter3761]

I'm guessing the writer of the book was an Evangelion fan, lilen is the angels name for humanity in that series because we are life forms born from Lilith. Kawuru used it in the 97 series and both him and Asuka use the term in the movies.

[@buklao8000]

Best Stargate channel)

[@sg-24]

@buklao8000 thank Yu.

[@JimmyBlether]

Nobody: That one book: JESUS DANIEL

[@mrbojangles8133]

having a vampire race looking more human ( think Dracula ) being the Furlings could work too

[@sg-24]

That could work, would be kind of funny.

[@mrbojangles8133]

@@sg-24 and of course we have 1. Humans ( Ancients ) 2. Elves ( Asgard ( 3. Faeries ( Nox ) 4. ? ( Furlings )

[@sg-24]

There’s nothing wrong with it, but it’s weird seeing fairly and elf on a list together.

[@mrbojangles8133]

@@sg-24 Suppose but that's what the Nox remind me of as for the elves, that is what I think the Asgard may have been like before they cloned themselves to extinction. anyway with Stargate using mythology the way they do using such mythological beings as a basis for the other great races makes some sense

[@sg-24]

I mean I always saw them as being more dwarf like, but I can see elves. Also true, but I kind of feel like they didn’t use that idea as much as they could have.

[@logannichols5848]

Ok I like the race, I'd have the bulk of them moved off world through the star gate during "the flood?" The hundred can't make it through to the to star gate and seek isolationism and believe the gate was destroyed in the rebellion against ra. Given their limited number I don't have a problem with them fighting a shadow war under the belief that there is no star gate. And now meeting the Lilianas Stargate tries to track down the survivors only for shadow worlds to collide.

[@nunyabisnass1141]

I had the same reaction when taila aamg in that episode. Not because it was bad or anything, just that it was so freakin out of place lole those stupid bean memes.

[@TaftisBack]

So wait, does the book touch on whether or not they have the ATA gene? Seems like a race of Wraith Ancients with all of the Ancient tech lying around would run this galaxy to the ground in no time.

[@sg-24]

@TaftisBack you know, I’m not sure if it is ever brought up.

[@Elliandr]

I found the concept of the Wraith an interesting one, but one that wasn't fully explored beyond mere space vampires. I liked, for example, the concept of a world in which the ruling class created a system of punishment in which the wraith would feed on prisoners first. It was too effective as a deterrant so there were too few prisoners to keep the system going, but why not? I would have expected a few hundred years of peace and prosperity to result in significant increases in population. There are other ways the stories could have used symbiosis as well. For example, we see in multiple episodes that the Wraith have the ability to give life healing injuries. There's an entire culture of humans following and serving the wraith and being rewarded with what would essentially be immortality. Imagine a system in which, in exchange for peace, every adult was required to donate a year of their life as a one-time feeding? Prisoners would then have X years taken by the wraith based on the severity of their crimes. Additionally, any person could petition the Wraith for a lived one to be healed in exchange for a fair portion of their own life. If I had a child dying of an injury and a wraith could heal that child and it would only cost me a year of my life I would absolutely pay that price and I suspect others would as well. With a symbiotic mindset a world could thrive, advanced in various agricultural matters by the Wraith.This would help increase population which would increase the food supply of the wraith. Logically it makes complete sense. A single culling doesn't take many humans at a time and it doesn't appear to take much to support a hive ship, but if all 8 billion humans on Earth each gave just one year of life to the wraith that would represent 8 billion years worth of life. If we assume the average victim would normally have just 30 years of life left in them that would be the equivalent of feeding fully on over 260 Million humans. That's far more life than even feeding on our prisoners could provide them. Imagine a story where a small group of wraith actually had a system like that and kept it hidden from the rest of the wraith. What would happen if the other wraith found out? And would the people who were "victims" of the wraith actually want to be freed from it if that means they would no longer have acccess to wraith healing? Also, what if the ruling class of that world was blessed with immortality to ensure that the status quo remained intact? They would have no reason to support any group that would betray the wraith and might even provide military support for the wraith. So many missed story possibilities that would have been far more interesting that merely space vampires on a rampage.

[@sg-24]

@Elliandr I do agree that the Wraith weren't expanded upon as much as they should have been. I'll admit when I read you comment I didn't like the idea. I just didn't see any Wraith doing something like saving a child in exchanged for a volunteer. Thye would just feed on the person volunteering, and then the child. But I thought about it, and you know what? I would love to see something like that! It remined me of this animation on YT about this dragon that took over a medieval village and demanded that it gets 1,000 people to eat each year. So, the humans set up a system to choose who gets scarified, and it continues into the modern day. I'd love to see something similar play out with the Wraith. A culture that is taught to see them as saviors, but in kind of a F-up way.

[@Elliandr]

​@@sg-24 Oh, I agree that the wraith as a culture - or rather the culture we are shown - wouldn't do that. However, as we've seen in Todd, the Wraith can have a sense of honor in keeping promises even if it would potentially harm themselves to do so. We have also seen examples of Wraith doing things the rest wouldn't tolerate, such as the origin story of the ones who could tap into the Wraith Collection Conciousness. We have been told in the story that there are many civilizations in the Pegasus galaxy hiding from the Wraith. Imagine if, while all the events of Atlantis was going on, that story played out with a small group of Wraith who were acting separate from the rest. In such a scenario the Wraith wouldn't actually be working as saviors. They aren't being good for the sake of being good. It's simply a business transaction. If the wraith are promised 1 year of life per person in exchange for peace they'd have an incentive to find other clever ways of getting more life out of the people if we assume they are honorable. If one year of my life saves my child, but the wraith only needs a month of life to heal the child, the wraith benefits from the arrangement and is seen as a savior. (Plus, when that child grows up, it will give a year of it's life to the Wraith as well in gratitude for it's life) It's a win-win for the wraith. The tax wouldn't be of direct benefit to the people, but if the wraith worked to keep the world hidden from the others it would look like a twisted "Lord Protector" arrangement. Again though it would be serving it's own interests. They don't want to share, after all. Still, in a galaxy filled with violent space vampires it would be a very profitable move to make. If such a colony was doing this for thousands of years they would be growing in strength and numbers while the rest of the wraith were collapsing as a civilization meaning that their eventual discovery would likely create conflict between the two groups of space vampires in a manner similar to what you talked about in your video, but without causing the issues you mentioned since the story could take place after everything else happens. Or what if these Wraith were setting themselves up as the God kings of these people actually living among them as seemingly benevolent gods? Unlike the body snatcher type Aliens in Milky Way, these Space Vampires wouldn't be motivated by the glory of worship nor would they be motivated by the need for worship that the Ori have. Rather they are motivated by food and as a good farmer tending to it's herd the Wraith have an interest in growing the size of the herd by protecting them, nurturing them, helping them achieve agricultural advances, etc. And we've seen other examples of Wraith scientists taking steps to improve their food supply so it's not a huge leap to suggest that a few would go in this direction especially when we've seen what happened to the wraith that feed without considering the long term food needs. We've also seen an example of a Wraith Female who decided it didn't want to live like the other Wraith. Granted, that was a situation where she was raised by a human, but if she was praised as some kind of God that fell from the heavens and took only a small amount from each follower to sustain herself and gave back to those in need I believe she would have so there's plenty of examples to suggest that it fits within the existing narrative of what's possible for the Wraith as a species to do.

[@sg-24]

@@Elliandr Well when you put it like that now I really do want to see something like this

[@Elliandr]

​@@sg-24 Yeah, but the one problem with the concept is that there always has to be an enemy in one of these stories, so here's a thought: What if the humans from Earth end up being the bad guys, at least from the perspective of these "victims"? One of the issues I have with the franchise is that American culture in particular is universally accepted. There are rarely if ever any points where another cultural perspective is truly alien from how things are done in America. Even on Earth that's not realistic. There should at least be cases where Ethnocentrism makes a mess of things. (A few exceptions exist, such as a planet of relocated Native Americans where SG-1 planned to blow up their mountain for Trinium, and only backed off when Earth was powerless to stand against their "Great Spirits", but stories like that are pretty rare.) If the Atlantis Expedition finds such a world they would naturally view the Wraith as an enemy to kill, but how would the people of such a world view such an attempt? Picture this: They find an address in the database, but the Stargate doesn't reach it. They decide to take a ship to see what's there. It wouldn't be the first time they tried that. On arrival to the surface they find what appears to be an advanced civilization, but with the occasional Wraith Fortress present. (think that cloning facility episode. A really nice design.) They beam in on a location where a single Wraith lifesign is detected surrounded by human lifesigns. They see the Wraith feeding on a human and start shooting. Before they could kill the Wraith the humans swarm the Atlantis Expedition to the ground with no regard for their own safety. One of them looks up to see the Wraith look at them, turn around, lean over an injured child and to their surprise heals the child. They are then taken to prison for the high crime of attempting to kill a Wraith where they have to discuss what they saw and try to get a handle on the situation they are in. How would the story progress from there? It's just one of many ways such a world could play out, but I think a story in which our heroes screw up royally could be interesting. Then if the system is explained to them what if they still don't agree? They could say that the war is over, etc. That they don't have to give their lives to the Wraith anymore. Of course, what if the people reject that position? What if they don't want to change their way of life at all? Can the people from Earth tolerate such an alien way of life? They could try flexing details on some treaty, but that would be like holding one country to the treaty made with another, and what if the other Wraith learn of this? That while they've been starving there has been a rich feeding ground in the Pegasus galaxy? How would they react? Lots of ways to explore the concept.

[@Darkcloudalpha]

I'm split. Yes I don't think that this particular idea is good enough to be canon...but something similar a bit more fleshed out? Sure. While Stargate Earth is our Earth, it's only on the surface that holds true. You can add a lot of stuff in the shadows. So maybe some alien born vampires could find a home there =)

[@sg-24]

@Darkcloudalpha that’s fair, and others have suggested ideas that could work.

[@ericandes4288]

Great video. I'm not a fan of the idea tho. I would like to see more unique races instead of more human based life forms

[@logannichols5848]

Ok based off you description I kind of like them.

[@sg-24]

@Logan Nicholas that’s fair. May I ask what you like about them?

[@Tamamo-no-Bae]

@@sg-24 I like the idea of an ancient going rogue and trying to make this race that ends up a secret cult. If someone like Setesh could survive, so could the Lilin. Liking the idea doesn't mean I don't have a problem with the execution though. This whole idea would have worked way better if it happened offworld. Imagine they found a planet that was Lilith's headquarters after the other ancients exiled her from Earth for her experiments. And that's where you'll find the Lilin. Who once they learn of the arrival of the Ori, and the fact that humanity has access to Pegasus, would try to usurp the Daedalus and go there and the crew would have to stop them. The two factions would have differences in opinion and SG-1 convinces the good faction to stop the bad ones, resulting in only a few surviving. Also, tying Nirrti into this makes sense, if Nirrti had experience with Ancients, it explains why she was obsessed with trying to get an advanced host on that evolutionary level.

[@robkemp598]

My problem is these vampires aren't really equipped to fight the Ori so their whole existence is kinda pointless. Also the idea that they've been on EARTH all this time and not a random planet doesn't feel very stargate to me, if feels more like an underworld movie

[@jonreese7066]

I thought you were planning to talking about Michael. He could have been SGAs Baal. Dont get me wrong Baal has charisma and can be lighthearted. Michael was genocidal but he was the most dynamic of the Wraith. Resourceful and cunning and Smart enough to learn from humans amd Wraith. Hunted by both. But more importantly he was a monster created by SGA

[@sg-24]

@Jon Reese I will probably do a video on Michael in the future. While you are right in that he was not as charismatic as Baal or Todd. He is a really interesting villain.

[@shmee123ful]

I actually like the idea in conspect as it's kinda similar to what Michael was doing with his hybrid faction. And who doesn't like vampires? But the idea these guys were on earth all this time is kind of dumb. Maybe rather than be ment to fight the ori, perhaps these lilin, were Liliths adtempt to create a benine wraith species. Or an ally faction that could use wraith tech and numbers to fight the ori should they ever return and snuck their templet into the Decakara super weapon after the plague that whiped out sapent life in the milky way. so they might out there soon were on a hot topic planet being all edgy and speking in bad Transylvania acents Or Perhaps it started as an attempt to cure the wraith of their hunger and their need to feed on humans. Like what the Atlantis expedition would attempt But it didnt work as expected It could expain why some humans in Pegasus can sense the wraith. Which I don't think were ever really explained.

[@sg-24]

I think the Wraith sense thing was the Wraiths own experiments on humans. But overall I like the ideas you had. The at may be a better way to explain the problem with them. It’s not that they exist, it’s that they existed on Earth this whole time.

[@Durakken]

This is a great idea... save for the whole, still waiting for a savior thing. Stargate has so far kept away from Christian and Sumerian mythology (for obvious reasons) but I wish they wouldn't. It's a huge plot hole when you say all the mythologies on Earth are based on events that really happened and had something to do with aliens.... but we're going to just ignore that one... that single one right there. To be fair they ignored a lot of Greek and Asian mythology too, but that largely has to do with too much Greco-Roman already and people are unfamiliar with even the baseline of most Japanese mythology/history... since we're not quite sure where the divide is for that and they already stepped on those toes. The largest problem with it is trying to weave a coherent narrative that works while also avoiding Ba'al and Yahweh and all those implications or dealing with Sokar, Satan, and the Unas... And lets not forget the fish alien....without causing an uproar. I think it'd be cool to take all mythology and retell it with in SG lore so as to have it all set out there. Heck, a tv series based on doing that would be fun. As far as whether the books should be cannon or not... It's no because it is not primary source and not fully overseen and therefor the casual viewer will always be like "wtf is going on." when you bring up info from there.

[@sg-24]

I suppose this might be a different of opinion. I do agree that SG should address more elements of Christian mythology. I still don’t like the way it was handle in this book for the reasons I stated.

[@dyent]

I like the concept but based off the precautions we know the Ancients took to prevent the Wraith reaching the Milky Way it seems highly unlikely that any research involving cloning Wraith DNA would be conducted outside of Pegasus, and if it were there would be containment protocols in place. Yes, there were some renegade Ancients who went against the laws, but they were never stupid. Any vampiric hybrid that inspired Earths legends would've had to be Goa'uld, or an unknown species. More likely it was just the Asgard though.

[@Elliandr]

What if it was an Ascended Wraith that did it?

[@5226-p1e]

not a whole lot of the fan fiction novels i really like all that much, however one idea i liked in at least one of the novels was the idea of where the Wraith came from, instead of them being an evolution of humans and eratus bug, i liked the story where it was yet another creation of the Alteran trying to save themselves from that Ori plague, when they were experimenting on the eratus bug and mixing it with human DNA in order to create a highly resistant hybrid to live through that plague effectively, but the experiment's escaped and the Ancient responsible, i can't remember if he dies or if he just cleans up shop never to tell anyone about how this species exists. but anyway i like this idea in how they were created over the in cannon explanation of evolution, i also don't like the in cannon explanation of where the Humans came from in that galaxy. i mean i wish these two examples were in the cannon as it makes much more sense, it also makes sense that the humans came from the Alteran, i mean they were the most likely to have the means to do so, they seeded an entire galaxy after killing an entire galaxy of humans effected by the plague according to Anubis who gained this knowledge through the ascended realm. i don't remember which novel had that story, but it was probably the only one i wish was cannon, as for the other novels, well i haven't read all of them but a lot of them go into some really weird directions and i just take them as badly thought up fanfiction.

[@sg-24]

I agree, the book explanations for the Wraith I always thought was more interesting. Did the books go into details about where humans comes from?

[@5226-p1e]

@@sg-24 i can't remember a whole lot from that novel, i had a copy for a while but then i misplaced it, and now i have no idea where it is lol. maybe if i come across it, i will let you know, but that's kind of a slim to none response sorry.

[@DaoFAQ]

If you’re willing to do videos on Book Only ideas, any chance that a video on the Eidolons is in the cards? I think they’re an interesting idea from a societal level, like they are to the Wraith what the Tokra are to the Goauld

[@sg-24]

@DaoFAQ I’ve not heard about these guys people, will need to do some investigating then.

[@sg-24]

So I looked into it, but these guys seem to be in books as well and I couldn't find anything about cards. Never mind I am stupid, and miss read you comment.

[@juniorg8162]

if they maybe left their origins or backstory a bit shrouded but have some hint to the book a i think it would be okay

[@theblackwidower]

First thought: Isn't the whole idea of Wraith-Human Hybrids a bit redundant since the Wraith are already Iratus Bug-Human Hybrids? So what we have is Iratus Bug-Human-Human Hybrids. This is dumb. I mean, how exactly does making them more human make them better than humans or wraith are already?

[@sg-24]

A very good point!

[@LCliffhanger]

I do think the idea of the Lilin as a species is an interesting one, with a good degree of potential. Conceptually, I like the idea, but i dont think they did a good job with the idea.

[@VampireNewl]

You know I think I could take the Ancients arrogant attitude better if they didn't keep creating new threats to the universe and then not doing anything about it.

[@Vesp3r1987]

Honestly the Ancients are the dumbest smartest race ever created 😅 They ran around the galaxies creating weapons of mass destruction, time travel machines, and predator races and then they are like "we wont do anything to fix our mistakes but we also wont help those who want to fix our mistakes

[@ObserverDoel]

So, uh, great video but uh, legitimate question, after doing all this research, making some notes presumably, writing a whole script, recording and editing the video, did you actually, truly, cross your heart, never consider that the name Lilin has the same root or is derivative of the name Lilith and so, naturally, the word, would be emphasized in the same place? 🤣 It's all I can focus on bahahhahahahah

[@sg-24]

@ObserverDoel I’m not really sure what you mean. Did I say Lilith and Lilin too similar to each other?

[@ObserverDoel]

@@sg-24 The opposite 😅 , it's practically the exact same word with a different ending. It's LIH-lin not li-LIN just like it is LIH-lith (which you pronounced correctly). For extra context, both these names are biblical, Lilith was Adam's original wife before Eve who long story short, didn't find the idea of submitting to Adam all that appealing so she f'd off and became a demon. While I've seen Lilin used as a name for Lilith's children in many places, it's mostly in fiction (Neon Genesis Evangelion, Diablo, Marvel etc) and while I know there is a correlation between Lilith and the Lilin in scriptures, the only actual info on them I know for a fact is that they're some kind of night spirits.

[@sg-24]

@ObserverDoel oh I see. Whoops on me then. I plugged it into google translate and that’s how they pronounced it.

[@ObserverDoel]

@@sg-24 Yeah Google thinks it's the Indonesian word for candle or sth random like that by default :P

[@sg-24]

@ObserverDoel well something to keep in my for future. 🤷

[@huanhoundofthevailinor2374]

David Childress is cursing u right now saying there is no ancient aliens have u not seen the evidence hahahahahaha

[@sonicninja3434]

"climate change" hahahahahahahaha