Stealth Rock's Future is Unclear

Entry hazards are a useful tool, should you choose to use them. They are an important inclusion to the series, because they add another class of options to the many ways a player can battle. They can be a strategy to include during a casual pokémon journey, a nuzlocke, in the official in-game matchmakers, in the unofficial matchmakers on online simulators, in official VGC tournaments, and in unoffical/unsanctioned matches in person where any two people with a Switch can have competitive matches following the exact pokémon company rules. Though you can legally use hazards in any of these formats, mentioning that this is a possibility is just that, mentioning that you have the agency as a thinking being to use hazards. Acknowledging the possibility that hazards can be used by any player for any reason in any game mode whether singles, doubles, triples, rotation, inverse battles, official, unofficial, online, offline, etc is not an endorsement of their specific or overall viability.
But Pokémon has a Stealth Rock problem, and can become more problematic as the game evolves around them. We aim to fix it today, now in 4K!
This video's script was written around the end of May, so things related to the meta changes after a month of Pokémon HOME release has not been factored in this video. This had to come out before I release any other type reworks since Stealth Rock will always be brought up if Rock-type effectiveness is ever brought up.
This video isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I have pitched this as if pitching it straight to Game Freak themselves.
As usual, check the pinned comment for corrections and updates from me and the community!
Timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction
00:18 - What is the concept of Pressure?
01:47 - Goals of this discussion
02:17 - Kinds of Hazards
02:58 - Spikes
03:51 - Poisonous Spikes
04:34 - Sticky Web
04:58 - Pointed Stones
06:07 - Hazard Control
08:19 - Hazard / Hazard Control Summary
09:22 - The Pointed Stone Problem
10:09 - The Rework "Rules"
10:51 - Attribute 1: Effective PP
11:38 - Attribute 2: Distribution
12:17 - Attribute 3: Damage/Type Effectiveness
15:29 - Attribute 4: Automated Mechanics
19:41 - Implementation & Possibilities
21:29 - Summary of Possibilities
21:45 - What if Smogon Had No Bans? (NOT SPONSORED)
22:24 - Revisiting this discussion
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Sources:
Bulbapedia:
bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/
www.smogon.com/forums/threads...
victoryroadvgc.com/2022/06/11...
Move Infographics:
Made by me, but inspired by the ones WolfeyVGC or his editor(s) use. Check out his channel here for VGC content: / @wolfeyvgc
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[@CammyMeeleTea]

ERRORS: A commenter pointed out: 1 Layer of Toxic Spikes is not bad. They're absolutely right. Someone else pointed out that where I'm explaining that we can't use all the rework ideas I put "5 five" in the graphic. I couldn't decide whether it looked better as the word or the number, and completely forgot to make a decision and clean it up. It says both and looks terrible now, but I can't change it sadly. A commenter pointed out that in the description it was confusing when I said "Entry hazards are a useful and an important option, especially in competitive singles". The reasoning is that they believe it is me implying: "Entry hazards are useful and an important option [*and completely viable*], especially in [*all official, Pokémon-sanctioned*] competitive singles [*metagames*]. In light of this, I've decided to update the description to avoid confusing players that were unaware of all the game modes that hazards are legally allowed in. The new description will hopefully reflect what I actually meant. I'm not above any of you just because I decided to make a channel. We will disagree a lot, I'm sure. Even if your belief is 180 degrees from my belief, as long as you are not misrepresenting my argument and putting words in my mouth, I'm fine with it. Thank you all so much, and please always feel free to speak your mind. On another note: Heavy Duty Boots are like the funniest thing ever. It's like handing out stabproof vests in London. Like, yes it helps, but completely misses the core issue. A big thanks to everyone that participated in the Stealth Rock Poll. It really helped me get some perspective on what factors would be more impactful. It also gave me some ideas for a different video. As always read the description, and check the pinned comment for corrections from the community. For an example of hazards from another game, check out Intercactus's video about hazards in Yo-Kai Watch: kzbin.info/www/bejne/roesq2NufK6pobs

[@go1den_berry]

What were the results?

[@AdminAbuse]

There are no official single meta games anyway

[@CammyMeeleTea]

@@AdminAbuse I think by official singles they meant those 3 v 3 formats like in the Battle Tower or some kind of mode online on cartridge. I have no idea, I don't like 3 v 3 since 6 v 6 is so rare in the story mode.

[@imaanlatios6790]

I can't tell if this comment is sincere or sarcastic, but if it's sincere, I think things were clear enough and you shouldn't worry so much about what people think. If you take on this much mental burden over people who don't understand context and everyday use of language, you're going to be very stressed and burn out. Just my completely unsolicited advice.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

@@imaanlatios6790 Oh, yeah, my bad. That makes sense. I guess I was afraid to look like I was ignoring or avoiding criticism, so I wanted to make sure I was taking it and acting upon it. But you're right, I should just accept that some misunderstandings can be clarified. Thanks, I'm too much of a people pleaser sometimes. I really mean it.

[@kabuto1584]

I like the idea of rock types shattering the stealth rock, gives them more utility

[@jaynajuly2140]

100% agree with this! I wish bad types had more effects, like what if Bug type moves used by a Bug type could bypass screens and substitutes?

[@BlazeSLK]

It’s also got precedent with toxic spikes and grounded poison types! That one in particular works really well, since a nongrounded poison gets to bypass one of its only weaknesses, but can no longer remove the hazard

[@hxlize4913]

this would be awesome and maybe add a similar version for ice to increase diversity of spike teams

[@BlindSwami_]

The move rock smash should also remove stealth rocks. Just makes too much sense.

[@wheelsdex7428]

I agree, one type should be immune to rocks at least. Akin to the other hazards

[@grunkleg.3110]

Funny that Stealth Rock on its own is so perfect a move, the ability to set pointed stones with an attack wasn't enough to make Kleavor an OU staple due to how easy and low commitment the base Stealth Rock is. Compare that to Ceasless Edge, a move that makes a riskier, more limited hazard like Spikes very simple to set up, and suddenly Hisuian Samurott is Number 5 in OU usage for June 2023. Stealth Rock on its own is already that close to being fully automated

[@Dinamosaur]

I think the best way to rework Stealth Rock would be to have it deal a flat 10% damage to grounded Pokémon and 20% to airborne Pokémon (either flying, levitating or with baloon). That way they still punish those Pokémon that get to dodge all other hazards

[@CammyMeeleTea]

That's interesting, I hadn't considered something so simple. A great middle ground between the type effectiveness and the flat damage.

[@moonman4307]

I really like this idea since i think the point of stealth rocks was to introduce a hazard that airborne pokemon would be hurt by. This would do that, while not screwing over the grounded ice fire and bug types that arent that good defensively to begin with.

[@knightpg3d162]

I actually really like this idea, it’s simple but effective for balancing stealth rocks

[@wienerschnitzel1739]

My biggest problem with stealth rocks is how much of a disadvantage some Pokémon are at simply because they’re weak to rock, which Game Freak doesn’t account for when making them. For example, Charizard is absolutely screwed by stealth rocks, making it basically unviable without heavy duty boots simply because it got unlucky Imo spikes are a much better and more fairly balanced entry hazard

[@walaceandrade4046]

This! ☝️

[@randyjr.arsenio5624]

Charizard deserves it.

[@victory8928]

NU Charizard: Doesn’t matter if I only can come in 2-3 times when I nuke everything

[@carnage0685]

@@victory8928 yeah Charizard is actually king in the lower low tiers

[@victory8928]

@@carnage0685 at least prior to gen 8 I have no idea what happened after gen 7 but it got harder somewhat for it.

[@androsp9105]

It wouldn't solve stealth rock's balancing issues but I think a fun gimmick would be to have rock throw double in power and clear rocks if they're up on your side of the field.

[@johnbauduin1563]

Or maybe it throws the Stealth rocks onto the opponent side. Though I am now laughing at the idea of two geodudes duking it out, passing the rocks back and forth.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

@@johnbauduin1563 I like both of these. Rock Throw has the low Base Power of Rapid Spin, but a strong effect. It's actively punishing the opponent by clearing rocks and moving it to the enemy field, and doubling the damage. The trade off is that you are stuck with Rock Throw if they aren't using Stealth Rock. It also has a nice bit of flavor to it, like how Stomp does double to Minimize or how Earthquake hits Digging pokémon.

[@floofzykitty5072]

You say that would be a gimmick, but if it threw SR back to the opponent's side it would be like a more situational Rapid Spin that can't be blocked by anything.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

@@floofzykitty5072 Kinda like Stone Axe, but weaker and it requires the enemy to set rocks first.

[@MrLuismancei]

On a similar note what if fling serves as a damaging tidy up once you use your item. And or has a 25% chance of setting them up in the enemies field

[@jjtjp2469]

I'd rather go with letting Stealth Rock keep its type-effectiveness, but nerfing the damage as I believe that's where the core issue with the move is. I'd be down with the other option too, but I feel as though it would make the move too similar mechanically to Spikes in a way

[@leebulger7112]

I think there should be a version of Stealth Rock for every Type that does damage similarly and does unique effects on the opponent.

[@connivingkhajiit]

I would keep the effectiveness but remove the 4x resisted and 4x effective, making mons only take 25, 12, or 6 percent. 50% is just ridiculous, but 25% can make it situationally better than or worse than spikes

[@leebulger7112]

@@connivingkhajiit What do you think of different versions of Stealth Rock for every Type?

[@e31174]

My issue with that idea is it only really works if the type in question can’t be made an immunity some how. That being said it does leave: Flying, Steel, Dark, Fairy, Bug and Ice as possible other types for Stealth Rock. Poison, Normal, Fighting, Ghost, Electric, Dragon and Psychic all have types that are naturally immune to it. Grass, Water, Fire, Ground all have abilities to make Pokémon immune to said damage type. Electric and Ground have both natural and ability immunities.

[@Thrillin_Chillin_Drillin]

And they should make it so that chip damage does not break focus sash.

[@gebis8515]

I think Stealth Rock clones would be fun if they couldn’t stack with each other. You would have to consider what hazard would benefit your team the most, and what hazard the opponent might be bringing. For example, if you use powerful Dragon types you could bring Ice type Stealth Rock to stop opposing dragons, but the opponent could devastate you with Court Change. I also think it would be interesting if hazards gained some level of viability in VGC, just far from the levels of Smogon to keep the two unique. It’s just a bit sad the mechanic is so polarised between formats.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

The non-stacking aspect is really interesting. They'd have to make sure to not allow you to set hazards then court change the hazards over to get two layers anyway. 🤣

[@BeanyBoi06]

You could pull off some sick combos with justified lucario

[@TheDarkSlayer415]

Honestly, I think the best way to balance entry hazards is to make them temporary like weather and terrains. By default, they should last 5 turns and 8 turns with a new item.

[@randaljr.8581]

now That is an interesting idea! i like that

[@Marcspielt]

Alternatively, you coupd make them last for a certain amount of switch ins. The opponent can't just wait them out but is able to make a decision on what Pokemon should absorb the damage or status effect. On the developers side, they could choose wether stacking the move enhances the effect or the number of switch ins it lasts.

[@SavveGaming]

@@Marcspieltyeah this is the take I think makes the most sense. If they offer a limited amount of turns but deal more damage that adds a whole new level to the decision making.

[@blip_exists]

I think that part of why stealth rocks are so good, is because of how bad they are in VGC. To Gamefreak, the move stealth rock is too weak, because in the main format, it is. I think that the best change would be if it was somehow possible to make entry hazards/traps balanced in all formats.

[@seiromem5708]

Definitely have stealth rock's damage scaling nerfed in my personal mechanics changes doc, although having rock types remove the hazard as poison types remove Tspikes didn't cross my mind. Having these two changes would be very successful in reining in SR IMO. Just as Freezai has a Pet Mod for his non-smogon rules ladder, I would love a showdown server or something with these changes implemented for testing; testing these changes in specific metagames like DPP would also be interesting.

[@KLIXORthe]

I think stealth rock could be changed to just do extra damage to non-grounded pokemon, keeping its synergy with ground coverage and other hazards. Then they can add a new hazard that does double damage if the pokemon being hit has more type resistances than type weaknesses, which would naturally counter stronger typings and more conventially defensive switch ins.

[@victory8928]

just what we need more stuff to make hyper offensive bust. If those two do happen jeez that would make steels so much worse same with poisons and will punish a ton of pokemon forcing it to become more of a boots metagame.

[@KLIXORthe]

@@victory8928 Steel is already meta warpingly good lol. Depending on who you ask it either resists or is the best type in the game. It can take the viability hit. Poison is an unfortunate one though. Ditching its mostly useless bug and poison resists if the second hazard got added would balance things out. That being said I think mostly hurting types like steel/water/fairy/dragon is more balanced than hurting already weak types like ice/bug as SR currently do.

[@victory8928]

@@KLIXORthe agree but if the old rocks were not removed then it would just hurt a lot more and there will be a lot more boot spam and less defensive teams

[@KLIXORthe]

@@victory8928 GF just needs to add more hazard clearing moves, honestly, because spin and defog have pretty terrible distribution. I think there should be another spin effect move that has better base power and distribution than spin, but only 80% accuracy and no speed boost. Could even be an electric type move for easier spin blocking.

[@moosen135]

19:55 Don't give the Koalas pink eye, they already have it bad enough with Chlamydia.

[@rooklordofmagic]

I like the idea of Introducing a few other stealth rock type variants but limit entry hazards to one floating hazard and one ground hazard. Flying types and levitators are immune to ground hazards, ground types immune to floating hazards.

[@FreeEOC]

This!

[@victory8928]

yeah that would also a good way to do thinks plus it means that you actually need to use two hazard moves inorder to cover both groups and not just spam Stealth Rocks like the meta of the past gens were. cause rocks are so good that ya just have tons of mons whose main job was setting it up like terra then being annoying. Ferra can still work same with other pokemon with both hazard as a nice change of utility and of course lowering distribution of it to pokemon that make sense.

[@tictacctical3030]

Those darned sneaky pebbles! Ok but, on a real note, this was a really well put together video, I’ve been a regular viewer of your channel for a few months now, and your stuff is always really well researched and really well made, keep doing what you’re doing

[@CammyMeeleTea]

I really appreciate it. I usually bite off way more than I can chew, but I'm glad it usually works out in the end.

[@yukiizura]

This was a very well put together video! Personally, I’d want to see the damage cut in half (max 25% to quad weak) and Rock Types shattering them on switch-in, then we could think about if Boots should block it or not (imo they shouldn’t). I think this would do a lot, if not outright fix the balance problems SR has had over the years. If it ends up losing its crown with these changes, well imo it’s more than had its time in the spotlight. I honestly think nerfs to Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge to 50BP, especially if distribution increases, wouldn’t be awful either - damage and hazards in a single move is very strong as is.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

A friend of mine named Intercactus made a video about hazards in Yo-Kai Watch 3. Watching that video and this one back to back made me realize a few things. One is your point about pressure. In YKW3, hazards still create pressure for area denial like a sniper in the distance or a projectile in a fighting game. However both those games have more real time functionssd to move AROUND the pressure like jumping. In YKW3, the grid system lets you walk AROUND hazards. Pokemon has no such thing. You just have 1 tile you are stuck to 1 tile and have to try to keep it clean despite the anime advertising the series with real time shounen action you would get from Yo-Kai Watch Busters. As a result, getting around hazards is way more restrictive. Another key thing here is distribution. As you said here, a good number of monsters have access to any of these hazards. In Yo-Kai Watch 3, out of its 752 monsters, a grand total of 15 can lay down hazards. I recommend watching Intercactus' video for dome insight on an arguably better hazard system. It also helps that hazards are often not automated and expire after a few turns. 14:03 Thanks for making me laugh at a T posing model of Carl Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

I'll check it out, someone else recommended trying Yo-Kai Watch, and I haven't gotten around to buying it or playing it since I'm too busy. But videos are great for long drives, especially ones like that that I can listen to. Thanks!

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

@@CammyMeeleTea It was me. I was the guy that recommended it on your Stealth Rock poll lol. Hope yiu find the time to consider researching it!

[@CammyMeeleTea]

@@DrCoeloCephalo Ahhhh no, I knew the profile looked familiar. KZbin Studio lumps all the comments together so sometimes I can't find a comment again because I forget which video it's under. I'm on my phone right now replying while out shopping, so I'm a little distracted. But I was serious about looking into it. Also, feel free to drop the link to your friend's video in the comments here, other people might wanna see it. I'll make sure KZbin doesn't remove it.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

@@CammyMeeleTea Here is HIS video tiering the hazards. kzbin.info/www/bejne/roesq2NufK6pobs Here is my OWN video detailing and explaining the competitive format of Yo-Kai Watch which will help to get a good grasp of the system. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnPbo6KPeaeHkM0

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

@@CammyMeeleTea I posted links. Let me know if you can see them.

[@chrisjohnsen8448]

Tightening the damage range and having rocks shatter would probably be enough to help things out. I would also enjoy if they introduced a few other hazards that stacked, but had limited distribution to increase the value of the few Pokémon that have them.

[@MegabombGamer-rb5kh]

I'm so glad I found your channel, I love your sense of humor, and you cover interesting topics too.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Welcome aboard, happy to let people hear the goofy things I come up with.

[@ZEYENSANDWICH]

I feel like a fire type entry hazard called scorching spikes that burn Pokémon when they enter and if it’s fire type they are absorbed would work well.

[@mamertvonn]

automatic half attack?

[@BBG07endless]

Burn is a very powerful status as compared to toxic, and especially as compared to normal poison, so the value per turn on this is insane. It’s also more difficult to play around than toxic spikes since there are two types immune to toxic spikes and fire types aren’t amazing

[@DuelingSteel]

Oh man! You have done your research! When I playing the OU tier in Smogon just after the Home update I realized the power of ceaseless edge and stone axe. I really like how you addressed those moves and discussed the precedent that those moves can set for the future. For that silly fan game that I'm still working on (currently just a bunch of tilesetting) I would probably most likely tighten the damage curves of stealth rock to balance it out compared to the other hazards. I'm considering taking an approach to giving weaker Pokemon new moves and/or abilities instead of directly buffing their stats. (if I can help it) I was imagining an ice type variant to stealth rocks that can be handed out to the more unfortunate ice types in the game- that would work well with the tightened damage spread. Also I really love your suggestion of rock types absorbing stealth rocks, thats a great way to indirectly buff the rock type. Another banger of a video! I can't wait to see more! :>

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Yeah, I agree with you. It's an easier ask for developers (especially in games with tons of monsters) it can be hard to realistically adjust stats for, say, all Rock types. It's why I was surprised we got stat buffs in Gen 7 or stat nerfs in Gen 9 for the 4 Treasures of Ruin pokémon. It's probably more doable because they have a whole development team, but for indie developers, it's quite the task. Look forward to seeing your game.

[@vitorluiz7538]

An Ice-type Entry Hazard was the first idea that came to mind. The second was a Bug-type Entry Hazard.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

@@vitorluiz7538 I did have an Ice-type one in mind for years, like many people, but didn't want to use it as an example. I just made three Ice-type videos and nerfed Stealth Rock, so I'm a little self-conscious about the viewers thinking I'm obsessed with Ice-types. 🤣 But for Ice-types something like Sneaky Icicles, Black Ice, Hidden Hailstones, etc. For Bug-types, it's funny to picture a hazard based on a Bee's Nest or Hornet's Nest that is triggered. Maybe it's a swarm that attacks (without overlapping with Infestation).

[@DuelingSteel]

@@CammyMeeleTea What do you mean? You're that cool ice type spokesperson on KZbin! 🙃

[@KnightLineArtYT]

Interesting stuff. I can see how this move needs adjusting if so much revolves around it.

[@christiancinnabars1402]

I'll probably repeatedly bring this up, but the type effectiveness modifier from Legends: Arceus should come back (the main difference being moves that a target is doubly weak to will deal 2.5x damage rather than 4x damage), and with it the Stealth Rock modifier for doubly weak mons should also change accordingly. If this is carried over to the current rocks formula, then a mon doubly weak to Rock would take damage equal to 31.25% of their max HP (very nearly 1/3) rather than 50%. If this is applied to the condensed formula proposed in the video, then mons doubly weak to Rock instead take only 18.75% of their max HP in damage. Pushing it even further, they can even make it so stealth rocks can only be resisted, with mons taking at max neutral damage regardless of how weak they are to Rocks. This goes in line with the other hazards; with match-ups only ever being situationally better for the opposing team and never situationally worse. Your mons don't take extra Poison damage from poison spikes if they are Grass or Fairy type, nor do they take additional Speed drops from webs if they are Psychic or Dark type, for example. In the same vein, maybe rocks can still do less damage than normal, providing a benefit for mons that resist Rock, but never more than the neutral 12.5% damage. This makes it so that the issues the sneaky rocks fix are still fixed, and the mons they limit aren't as oppressed by a single layer of hazards. Balance-wise, I think it's worth it. For every Volcarona that the rocks "keep in check" (that ends up banned anyways), the rocks have to also take half a dozen Butterfree clones as tax. Releasing all of them, and letting the few broken mons be sent to Ubers (literally only Volc is all I can think of off the top of my head that is a very strong mon who is also double weak to Rock) is a fine trade, imo.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

My sentiments exactly. Also, that Legends Arceus damage change is something I felt but couldn't put my finger on. There's a lot of attacks I dealt and took that just seemed way weaker than they should have been and that explains SO much. It was such a nice change of place to play a pokémon game 100% casually. It made me feel like I was playing Pokémon XD again.

[@walaceandrade4046]

I dont really see a point in tweaking SR dmg values, mainly because Boots are gonna be used in most mons anyways. Even mons who takes regular dmg from SR likes to run Boots, just because its that good. I really cant support the fact that the strongest form of Passive Damage (hazzards) counts as Supereffective. If you average the amount of dmg dealt by hazzards prior to the introduction of HDB, you gonna find out they deal way more damage than most of your usual attacks, while being amazingly consistent and since SR weak mons are rarely used in competitive play you cant even blame such consistency on its ability to apply for supperefective dmg. SR just so happens to be the most powerfull move ever while crippling bug, flying, ice, and fire mons for no reason.

[@tezminator]

Really good video and I liked the ideas for rebalancing Stealth Rock's effectiveness. Beyond that, I've seen one people comment in some other video that it would be nice if they added a move that creates a field effect that for a few turns that makes it impossible to set entry hazards while it lasts, saying that it could be an Ice type move that creates a layer of ice that makes the rocks, spikes or webs slip and thus unable to stay in one place (the position where the Pokemon would switch in). It could be a nice counterplay to avoid entry hazards even with the current automation we got with Glimmora, Samurott and Kleavor (and possibly even more automation in the future DLCs and/or games). If they had not changed Hail into Snow in this gen 9, I think it could be the perfect opportunity to rework the old Hail weather into an Icy terrain, that would increase the defense for Ice types as Snow does today with the added effect of negating entry hazards while the terrain is up, which would still have counterplay as the opponent could just set a different terrain of its own or remove it with Ice Spinner, which is a move that does have somewhat of a distribution outside of just Ice types and even some Rapid Spinners also learn it, like Great Tusk and Cyclizar.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

That would be fun to try. So you know how Primordial Sea and Desolate Land are just super weather versions of Rain and Sun? And how Mega Rayquaza's Delta Stream was like "super Air Lock/Cloud Nine"? Why not a weaker version of Delta Stream's strong winds that prevents hazards, Screens, and things that defog blows away for a few turns?

[@glitterishhh]

great video! i've always hated SR. you mentioning the evolution of weather and terrains over the gens gave me an idea: what if hazards lasted a limited number of turns?

[@RenegadeStriker7]

Water/ steel types can erode them

[@CammyMeeleTea]

I like that idea.

[@RenegadeStriker7]

@@CammyMeeleTea since it makes total sense

[@yasuohatsu3374]

Great video (and also your ice type vids)! I like a lot of your suggestions. Me personally, I find myself increasingly of the opinion that stealth rock should just deal flat, neutral damage regardless of type. To me that just makes the the (still daunting) task of balancing the types a lot easier. Yes the type based damage was a unique quirk, but IMO it's not worth it if rock-weak pokemon are going to be knocked down a tier or have their effectiveness neutered simply for having the wrong weakness. For me, more often than not balance should come before "flashy" or "cool" mechanics. And besides, as you were pointing out there's currently moves that set up hazards automatically, and the potential for abilities to do so, and with an increase in options to put the rocks on the field, it's all the more important to ensure those rocks are fair and balanced. I also really like the idea of rock types clearing them automatically, especially if means to set up stealth rocks become easier. It's one more option that gives rock type a cool, much needed niche and lessons the need to awkwardly slap on random utility move like rapid spin that you otherwise wouldn't use.

[@deathclawproductions6723]

Love the analysis of Stealth Rock and why it’s strong (in singles anyway.) Out of everything you said I think the best changes is allowing rock types to shatter them (to help them a bit) and lowering the range to a maximum of 25%. This still makes them useful against Pokémon while making them not nearly as defining.

[@qyxgames]

CammyMeeleTea with another banger. Thanks for these great videos

[@neversparky]

Really fun video! I especially like the ideas of reigning in the damage range and having fellow rock types shatter stealth rock! Personally, while I understand that Stealth Rock's type effectiveness doesn't play much of a balancing role in practice, I do think it would be a cool idea to actually re-balance the game to make it actually be an Achilles heel for powerful pokes. For example, perhaps fire types could be made deliberately stronger than average, and thus incentivize the delicate song and dance of hazard management to limit how many times they could enter, allowing Rocks themselves to be a form of counter play

[@CammyMeeleTea]

As long as there is a real trade off and it isn't a rich get richer and poor get poorer field effect, I'm happy.

[@artimist0315]

I think what has been the biggest problem for the entirety of stealth's rock history has really been the distribution. From its inception it has been a TM and it really shows, when spikes were only limited to 10 fully evolved Pokémon in gen 4, stealth rock was already learned by 65 families. What had always made spikes balanced is that no matter how good they were, the only already good Pokémon that learned the move were Skarmory, Ferrothorn and greninja, with a handful of other Pokémon that only got viable through learning the move, like cloyster, klefki, roserade, froslass and forretress. This really created an interesting dynamic by allowing otherwise weak and passive Pokémon to have a real OU niche and made Pokémon that got spikes have a real niche. Of course since gen 8 things have changed quite a bit, with spikes having a much wider distribution, but even then compared to stealth rock the move is still a fairly rare one (and tbh I don't think it was a good thing to make it more available). Stealth rock despite beinng arguably the best move in the game was always available to so many already good Pokémon. Rather than being the selling point of a Pokémon like spikes were, stealth rock has always been something you slap on an already strong Pokémon that happened to learn the move and was essentially no investment. If you take a look at the stealth rock setters in OU, you'll find the chansey, clefable, garchomp, Infernape, heatran, landorus, Azelf, Hippodown, Aerodactyl, Bronzong, swampert, metagross, gliscor, mew, celebi, jirachi, mamoswine, mega diancie, Tyranitar, mega mawile, kommo-o and excadrill. I truly don't think any of these Pokémon would have needed the move to be viable, these are Pokémon with already clearly defined roles in OU that happen to learn stealth rock. My idea is to keep the move more or less as it it, but greatly limit the list of Pokémon that can learn it. I think it should be exclusive to only certain rock types, like Aerodactyl, carbink, corsola, coalossal, drednaw, diancie, crustle, gigalith, golem, lycanrock, minior, regirock, rhyperior, relicanth, solrock, lunatone and Tyranitar, as well as torterra, marowak and steelix. This would really limit the move to a handful of pokemon that really make sens, which would both limit the occurrence and ease of setting up the move, and give this reduce list of users a massive edge over other creatures. Maybe that's still too much, maybe it's not enough but at least it will really put stealth rock on the same level as the rest of the hazards.

[@nazeersadek6705]

Great video dude!! I fully agree with you that rock types should get rid of stealth rocks when switching in along with the idea of halving the damage it deals

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Thank you. That's good to know. I'm hoping we hear some more interesting ideas from the community. I'm sure there's a tons of solutions I didn’t think of. Even now, people are really popping off in the comments.

[@allengordon6929]

I'd only let all entry hazards proc once with increased damage. Also, we need clones of stealth rock in other types, or with other status effects: i have some particularly silly ones: Dead Hand (ghost): deals more damage if the pokemon that used it fainted. The pathetic normal damage means this is honestly more of a desparation attack rather than long-term offensive prediction. Blood Money (dark): an inverted entry hazard that works only on the user's side. When you switch in after a faint, that pokemon gains health equal to the fainted pokemon's level as well as stat buffs based off of that pokemon's three highest stats Macron shield (steel): another inverted entry hazard that only affects the caster's side. Grants a double-screen that only lasts that turn. Vine trap (grass): a particularly nasty reversed ingrain that pins an opponent in place Blast void (flying): this has a two-part effect: the first is basically roar as an entry hazard. The second is applied to whoever is used to replace the roar victim. This target gets spiked (as in, a single proc of the normal spike, not my hypothetical higher damage one-shot spikes).

[@moderateexistence377]

One idea I had, which is likely bad, is to weaken the damaging hazards but add some moves that can trigger them. Like having smack down trigger entry hazards.

[@bradfjord]

11/10 idea this is fucking hilarious. Smack Downing a pelliper into the Stealth Spike Toxic Webs

[@CrumblingLeech]

This was a phenomenal watch!!

[@Ninten-Durg]

It’s been almost a decade since I played competitive Pokémon, but even as a kid I remember thinking that Spikes where kind of awful when you can just throw up one layer of rocks and be set. I really like the idea of having multiple layers of rocks to get full effectiveness. Honestly I’d be pro decreasing layers of spikes to 2 for full effect if ceaseless edge weren’t in the game

[@FiboSai]

Overall a great video with multiple reasonable arguments. I'm only going to push back against one point, and that is the distribution of hazard setting moves. You are certainly right that the reason Sticky Web isn't used very often is that only otherwise bad pokemon can learn it. But lets just imagine for a moment that Sticky Web was made into a TM or move tutor move tomorrow. If good pokemon like Scizor or Volcarona could set it up, I'm certain that it would instantly shoot up in viability. I like to make the same argument for Stealth Rock, but in reverse. In gen 9, there are so many pokemon now that this is a moot point. But in gen 4, I claim that one reason Stealth Rock was so easy to fit on every team was that it was available as a TM with a wide distribution. Spikes, while having obvious downsides to Stealth Rock by design, was also much less prevalent because you had to use very specific Pokemon to set them up. If only a couple of otherwise mediocre rock or ground types were able to learn Stealth Rock, I think it would not have been nearly as ubiquious. If you have to use Steelix to set rocks for you instead of just puting it on your Heatran or Tyrannitar that you were going to use regardless, use of the hazards should naturally decrease.

[@chapman498]

imagine a fairy type entry hazard lmfao

[@SuperSdm7]

I feel like SR should have an interaction with rock types, either by healing them or buffing them by switch in. It would not only increase usage of some rock types like Aurorus and maybe Aerodactyl. It would also somewhat fit thematically. Like the rocks adding more rocks to the rock type pokemon or something.

[@johnbauduin1563]

I ran into a comment that got me going. With Hail and Snow switch out prehaps making a move called Ice Spike would be a good idea. Same thing as Stealth Rock but Ice type. I think its more likely then burning coal or other moves types. Ice and Rock have always seem complementary.

[@albnagithewoat1131]

I haven’t played pokemon in years (last gen I played was Kalos). I used to grind competitively and I definitely had a field day abusing stealth hazards against my friends. Setting up hazards should be an investment imo, and I can’t imagine that there are now damaging moves that also set hazards. Sounds op to me

[@ComicaPaloozaStudios]

I personally like the idea of almost any type having its own brand of Stealth Rock, having the same effect but of that type. The caveat would be that only one kind of Stealth Type Trap can be on the opponent's field at a time (so you couldn't stack 2+ and potentially One-Shot certain pokemon who are 2x weak to multiple types). If it's a bit much to do every single type, then at least an Ice Type one could be interesting (e.g. Stealth Icicles), but still being mutually exclusive with Stealth Rock as not to ruin every Flying Type that can't handle either. "Stealth Type Trap" can still stack will Spikes and T.Spikes, as usual.

[@jesuscryst3239]

Here's a thought I had: Make new entry hazards that get rid of other hazards. Hot coals: burns on contact and melts other entry hazards if entry hazards come on top of them it smothers them(also sending out a fire type would get rid of them and give the fire pokemon a boost to it's next fire move). Caltrops: similar to spikes, only one layer, damage based on weight of pokemon. Fairy ring: self inflicted, only usable when you have entry hazards, gets rid of entry hazards on your side and gives you left over recovery. Bladed grass: similar to stealth rocks, but weakness is based on grass weakness, and grows over other entry hazards(grass types take no damage). Icicle floor: bring back the frostbite status from legends Arceus.

[@taimur_rahman]

I like the idea of there being other type based hazards and their respective types shattering the hazard, like an Ice type variation of Stealth Rock that would be "absorbed" by Ice types switching in. It would give types like Ice and Rock some defensive use. I also don't want to be able to stack type based hazards, because as you said Stealth Rock + "Hot Coals" would completely reduce Frosmoth to nothing. If the stacking effect is what we went with, then there could be 2 stacks of "any" type based hazard, so you could have a combination of rocks and coals. There's just a lot of interesting room to grow here. As a side note, Stone Axe does not really see that much OU play because setting rocks is just easy as is, and most rock weak Pokemon already carry heavy duty boots. So dedicating an entire team slot just for Stone Axe is not really good in such an offensive meta. Ceaseless Edge is much more spammable and benefits greatly from being spammed (multiple layers). Probably the bigger thing people focus on is how H-Samurott is just overall better than Kleavor with types and moves but I just think Stone Axe wouldn't have been too impressive anyways when Stealth Rocks are just so easy to set up to begin with.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Agreed, that's why I asked people to not just consider existing pokémon but future moves and abilities that do not currently exist, but do the same thing.

[@that-guy-pearce]

Not saying that Stealth Rocks ruined Charizard's place in the metagame, but they certainly played a big role. To rectify this, I propose Stealth Rocks be changed to do 100% of Charizard's HP and no one else's so we definitively know what they're supposed to do.

[@hugomventura]

I think forms of negating hazard damage or changing the type of damage would be fun. Like let's say snow is reworked to turn hazards into doing ice damage or lessen damage of hazards on specific types. Either effect would add nice types of mind games.

[@chavonjames8941]

Hey Cammy, I know you covered the moves like scald, but should cover how scald affects competitive since moves like Discharge/Dragonbreath or Tri Attack (mainly on Porygon) arent as common even tho they have nearly the same % to inflict status

[@jimtsap04]

Quite simply water has no immunities and the only type immune to the burn is weak to it, making it incredibly spammable against any team without water absorb/,storm drain.

[@victory8928]

I think that keeping spikes as the airborne spikes to be a good idea as it came about due to how mons like gengar and birds could just ignore spikes damage but that is really it and it doesn’t work well cause it heavily affects types that are not flying and non-levitate mons

[@lemonzealdao6360]

I feel like they are missing a chance to make a bug type pokemon that gets stronger in hazards. For example, caddisfly larvae use silk cocoons camoflauged with surrounding debris. I love pokemon like lokix who dont have great stats but have good niches.

[@trinitydalfae8478]

The concept of having a hazard with type effectiveness is interesting in theory but unfairly disadvantages pokemon of certain types in practice because those types are always the ones taking extra damage when switching in. What if instead of changing rocks there were more typed hazards but only one could be on the field at a time like weather. A fire/flying pokemon wouldn't be at an immediate disadvantage anymore if the opponent had to choose between setting stealth rocks, steel spikes, hot coals, or jagged ice.

[@wafflebroz]

Another thought on the weak to stealth rock damage is that it’s capped at 2X damage (even if four times weak)

[@thenerdbeast7375]

How about hazards only last 5 turns like weather and terrains? Rocks smooth down, spikes become dull, toxins fade it makes sense that they would get worn away by switching in. In fact a number of charges might be the way, in which after a certain amount of uses they get used up. It doesn't make sense for their to be an infinite amount of Stealth Rocks floating in the air, or spikes on the ground so let them fade like other field conditions.

[@j.corbygaming]

You can also just ignore the hazards if you are a set up sweeper/tank. Especially if you have an ability that cant make them be switched out by whirlwind or something. Using the hazards could lead to turn for the set up mon to get a free stat boost. Also Smogon is not official competitive so id look at VGC or Battle Stadium Rules

[@CammyMeeleTea]

For the first part of your comment: That's a perfect example. A great example of maintaining good positioning and having better options than the opponent. Now they have to worry about Taunting your offensive or defensive set up. Regarding the second part of your comment: I know Smogon isn't official, I never said it was. That's why at 1:16 I showed both an image of Smogon usage stats and an image of VGC stats. Because no matter what rules and communities you are in, people will use the most effective tactic available to them. In addition at the end of the video at 21:45, I advertise a Freezai's tournament (who I call a competitive pokémon youtuber, NOT Pokémon Company) which is specifically about testing *the difference between Smogon clauses and official pokémon clauses*. Lastly, hazards are used for the same purpose whether it's Official Battle Stadium, Unofficial Smogon rulings, Official VGC tournaments, or with your friends in the school yard. The mechanics of pokémon do not change based on what community you are in. Just like how a video called "How to Swim" is just a video on how to swim whether you show it to a small child or an olympic swimmer, there's no need to bring up "official rules". So it's pretty nonsensical to imply that I think Smogon is official competitive when I didn't say that and when I've explicitly shown examples of non-Smogon rules, and specifically referred to Smogon as their own community. By the way, I don't think your comment was malicious, I think you were commenting while the video was going so you may have made assumptions based on what you missed. However, I do need to explicitly address this because there are people who are obsessed with Smogon and people obsessed with disliking Smogon, and I don't want a target placed on me for either. This kind of discourse happens with pokémon, smash, and even politics, and I want no part of the extremism. There are KZbinrs and their fans out there who behave ridiculously and cause trouble because of foolish assumptions, and I will not let that happen to me. Please do not imply things that I did not explicitly say. Bringing up Smogon or VGC as examples is not an endorsement of either. It's being thorough, inclusive, and accepting of all the ways that viewers may personally play pokémon. It's not a big deal now, but don't make hasty assumptions, it will cause trouble for people even in your personal life if you do.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

​@@AzaytioThat's not my belief. Where did I say that? I want a timestamp or a quote of me saying explicitly that hazards are viable in VGC. If you can't find that, you're putting words in my mouth, which is misleading. In the section at 1:16, I'm explaining the concept of what a meta is, using the most effective tactic available, and showed pictures of the most effective *pokémon* being ranked in Smogon and in that specific tournament at VGC. There was no mention of those lists being because of Stealth Rock. Through out the entire video, not one time do I say Stealth Rock is viable, nor do I use "Stealth Rock" and "viable" in the same sentence. In the comment above, I do not mention how good or bad hazards are in any format. I said that the purpose and mechanics of hazards do not change regardless of format. I did not mention how often they are used in VGC. For example, the statement "The purpose of using Powder Snow is do damage and maybe freeze a target" is not a statement that implies viability, it explains a mechanic and purpose of a move. To make a logical leap like that and say that someone is advocating the use of the move would be nonsensical. What are the mechanics of hazards? They have an affect when the opponent switches. Do the hazards MECHANICALLY work differently if you play Smogon singles, smogon doubles, battle stadium singles, VGC doubles? The answer is no. What is the purpose of hazards? The player would used them to pressure and punish switches. Do the hazards have a different purpose in smogon singles and VGC? No, they do not. Whether or not you would actually use hazards, or how viable it would be to do so in smogon singles, battle spot, VGC, etc You are part of the problem. You are reading and listening to comment, not reading or listening to properly think or respond. You had a kneejerk reaction and interpretation of an opinion you disagree with. Because you had a kneejerk response, your interpretation was misguided. I play almost entirely on cartridge and console (some friends don't have the latest console), and I find it extremely disrespectful that people assume you don't play on cartidge for talking about Smogon at all. (Not saying you do this specifically, but in general it happens.) But it's something I see happen very commonly. There is toxicity in a very vocal minority of the Smogon community, the Pokemon Showdown community, the console community, and the VGC community. There's immature and rude people everywhere. So which subset of the community are you? Given your propensity to put words in people's mouths aggressively and call people liars for things that they definitely did not say, I've got a pretty good idea of which channel you are or have been a fan of. I know exactly who. "Listen twice, speak once." This expression exists because of people like you. The previous commenter was a little silly for their mistake. But because you (presumably) read my response to them, or had the opportunity to read my response to them about putting words in my mouth, and you did it anyway, it's absolutely fair game to call your behavior foolish. Like watching someone touch a hot stove, and immediately doing it again. I read my script, my comments, and your comments 5 times just to make sure before responding. Maybe I missed something, please let me know if I did, and I will apologize. 100% promise it. You can say whatever takes you want, I'm fine with you disagreeing with me 100% a 1000% percent. I will not tolerate you or anyone putting words in my mouth because of your hastiness, laziness, or assumptions. We agree on a few things: We play pokemon and love VGC. But we don't like when people have a lack of thought or mob mentality. The difference is that I actually practice it. I don't know where you learned this behavior, but don't let me catch you acting the way you are to me or any of the other commenters. Poor behavior and misinformation is not welcome here. You are an adult, act like one.

[@Azaytio]

@@CammyMeeleTea I am in no way trying to disrespect you but in your video description it says "Entry hazards are useful and an important option, especially in competitive Singles" this implies viability. I only say slightly misleading cause you didn't use those phrase exactly but the discussion is very much something that applies to one format that is a casual format and not one of the ranked or sanctioned formats by Pokemon. I think the discussion is just as relevant as to why such a discrepancy exists and why gamefreak decides to buff hazards. I am just trying to be respectful and point out a flaw in your discussion. I am open to the idea that stone axe and ceaseless edge are too good or there is any need to buff or nerf any hazard. I just want the data to prove it so.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

I have no problem with your belief about hazard viability. I take issue that in your mind if someone says useful, you hear viable. If something is consistently useful, it is more viable. If something is useful in a specific situation, but not all. It's less viable. Viability can be thought of as a matrix of usefulness and percent of the time that is useful. I called hazards useful, especially in singles. That could be hazards being useful 10% of the time, especially in singles where it's 20% of the time. Just to throw meaningless numbers out there. It’s a useful and unique option, no mention of viability. What about that one time Pachirisu was useful? It was useful, but calling it useful in that instance in a video covering it, is not an implication that the species is viable even now. My biggest argument is how important hazards are to have as an option in the game, especially for game modes where you switch more. Nothing else does what hazards do, so regardless of how viable they are, they have a unique use, and thus it's important for it to exist in the game. However, compared to other hazards Stealth Rock has overall been too good. Throughout the video I compare the strength of hazards to the strength of other hazards. For an example in another game, in Overwatch 1, Doomfist is one of the worst characters in Overwatch 1. People debated his viability. Regardless of where he was, he was a useful and important character to the game. He had such an engaging game flow and a unique style of gameplay that made you feel like you were a speedrunner in a First Person Shooter. He had so much mobility techniques. Doomfist is useful, but not as viable as somewhere characters. Because overall viability is about consistency, and he is a demanding, feast or famine character. Next thing I take issue with is how pedantic you are being about the word choice as if people are not allowed to use competitive to talk about any competition. It's pretty common for people to call the VGC, VGC. Or just say Battle Spot or Battle Stadium or what ever league they are specifically talking about. If I host a Smash Tournament using Slippi, is it sponsored by Nintendo? No, it isn't because it is on an emulator, which Nintendo doesn't like. But it IS competitive because it is a competition at all. It would be fair to say that Fox is useful in competitive smash bros. Not the most viable in the official Smash Ultimate or Smash 4 tournaments, but very viable in the grassroots Melee community. Thus useful somewhere, but not viable everywhere. It doesn't need to be officially sponsored by the company or the official format to be called competitive. If I meant Battle Spot singles, I'd say it. If I meant VGC, I'd say it. I absolutely understand how you could misinterpret what I'm saying, but if I'm telling you what I mean past your interpretation, and you're insisting what I'm saying, you are telling me what I am saying. There is a difference between telling someone HOW they sound vs telling someone WHAT they re saying. It's like if a girl dresses provocatively, and you say "You're dressing sexy, which implies you want to be hit on" and she says, "Right, but I'm not dressing up to be hit on. If I wanted that I'd flirt with people", and the guy insists "Right, but when you dress like that, you imply that you want people to hit on you." That's the mentality that's frustrating. Telling a person what something implies is an excuse to make assumptions. I totally don't mind if you disagree with the video or the viability of hazards in singles, doubles, official formats, unofficial formats. The difference between casual and competitive to me is simply whether you are competing or not. Trying to win a battle or not against another human. Do you play street fighter competitively or casually? -Oh just casually, I pick up each one to play with siblings. -Yeah, I play ranked online. -Yeah, I go to tournaments like EVO. Do you play smash casually or competitively? -Nah, I mostly use items and weird stages. I only play when the new characters drop. -Yeah, I play on For Glory, 2 stock, Final Destination only. -Yeah, I go to Smashhouse, we play 10 minute, 4 stock, and this is the stage list for starters and counterpicks. Do you play overwatch competitively or casually? - Nah I just play with friends. - Yeah, I'm top 500 on PC but only Masters on console. -Yeah, I'm actually a streamer and I play DPS for San Francisco Shock in Overwatch League. Do you play Pokémon competitively? -Nah, I just play the story and hunt shinier. -Yeah, I grind it out on the Showdown ladder. -Nah, I just lurk on the Smogon forums. -Yeah, I play VGC, world champ difference babyyyyy. -Yeah, I love the Battle Stadium seasons. -Yeah, me and my friends have tournaments for the Lickitung minigame in Pokémon stadium. After all of these questions in many games, if someone says yes, the normal response is to ask if it's ranked the ladder, on what console, and other things that a normal person would ask. Notice how after not knowing the exact meaning of what someone means, people ask questions or a follow up question? Asking what meta they play? So I say again, and double down on it. Hazards are useful, especially in competitive singles. Which competitive singles? Who knows? Was it battle spot? Didn't say. Was it Smogon rules? Didn't say. Was it on cartridge? Didn't say. Was it on showdown? Didn't say. Is it official or unofficial rules? Didn't say. It really could imply anything, couldn't it. It could imply anything from none to all. But you specifically interpreted it as all. You could ask, you could have asked at any time. But you didn't. You choose to tell me what I meant, rather than ask. So I'll tell you what I meant. I use hazards in my casual playthroughs a lot of people actually do, and they are extremely useful in Nuzlockes too, for me, in multiple generations. And I use hazards when I competitively play against people. I play a mix of games from old generations to new generations. A mixture of online simulator and cartridge. A mixture of official and unofficial. Sometimes I even play Stadium, the N64 game, competitively. So what I said in the description, still applies to my experience. I'll say VGC when I mean VGC. I'll say Battle Stadium when I mean Battle Stadium. I'll say Official Format when I mean Official format. What if I made a video and called Articuno useful casually? What does that mean? By the logic you've expressed, casual is any unofficial competitive play. I'm going to assume you also think single player and nuzlockes are casual play. Let's see, Articuno is bad in unofficial competitive play, can be alright in a Nuzlocke, and is fine in singleplayer. It's useful for fly and for Ice coverage in the single player experience and not as useful in the unofficial competitive metas. Guess what, that's a mix of viable and unviable. But Articuno has a purpose and a use. It would be fair to say that Articuno is useful, especially in casual play. Because in at least some of the many forms of casual play, it is useful. That is not a statement saying it is viable in all casual play. I said what I meant and meant what I said. I mean what I mean, and told you what I mean. I really think we may just have to agree to disagree. Because fundamentally it is your belief that to call something competitive play, it has to be the official format. Even when it's a common colloquialism to call both ranked, tournaments, and try hard practice matches competitive play in games. Do you exclusively play Pokémon and no other competitive game? Games without official backing? You ever race in the school yard? Or were you not competitive because there was no Olympic official? It's annoying on VGC videos when people write off doubles as not being competitive, even though they compete officially. It's annoying when people on Smogon or Showdown videos write it off as not being competitive even though people compete unofficially. Competition is competition, official or not. So it rubs me the wrong way when people tell me over and over Smogon isn't the official competitive play, when I didn't say that. It's just a type of unofficial competition. Then people call it uncompetitive. It's dismissive and gatekeepy to a whole group of players. It's reductive. Both communities do it where some look at videos purely from the lens of the gamemode they play and dismiss the others. Fundamentally, we are having a disconnect about language more than the actual topic about hazards. How we define competitive is at odds, and that's the main thing I'm focusing on in this conversation. I may use formats as examples, but I don't want to exclusively cover any specific format official or unofficial. Heck, I don't exclusively want to cover Pokémon, because I play all sorts of games competitively (official and unofficial), and the skills and concepts transfer, regardless of vocabulary. I want to discuss mechanics and changes that can make the single player, nuzlocke, spinoff, and competitive experiences (official or not because if you COMPETE it's competitive) more enjoyable.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

​​@@Azaytio It's mostly the fixation about it being slighty misleading. The video itself and the commenters don't seem confused. The title and the thumbnail are pretty spot on too. So in the grand scheme of things, if you're the only one detecting this meaning, it could just be you. There are people out there that think Stealth Rock shouldn't be touched, some people said "Just get good", and I'm fine with those comments and those disagreements. I'd offer to change the description, but I think that if I list out all the game modes, you're not going to like that i will call unofficial and offical game modes competitive, even thought everyone else can tell the difference between official and unofficial. What gets me is that you're acting like a tiny detail in the description (a tiny detail that you're forcing one interpretation of), is going to make people unable to tell the difference in which competitive scenes I'm talking about. Whereas people that watched the video looked at the topic of hazards, and was instantly able to make an abstraction and apply it to the game modes they play. People in the comments were talking about VGC, people in the comments brought up their single player experiences, people in the comments brought up their unofficial romhacks and talked about those mechanics. Again, it seems like everyone else is able to take information that is general and can apply to the mode they play in. Because the point of the video was that Stealth Rock is poorly designed compared to the other hazards and it feels bad. And that if you made a community where you can just ban broken things, just ban something broken rather than use a bad mechanic to check it. So for you to be so hyper fixated on how a generic phrase like competitive is misleading because I didn't specify which competitive play, that would lead me to believe that you think people should be very specific, with no room to be misleading, right? Well, you don't. And I think it's unfair that you don't. It's arguably more misleading to title a video "The RAREST Shiny in Pokémon Scarlet Violet" when it's a 1/25 Birthday Marked Shiny Pawmott. Yeah, in the description and comments you clarify. But the title is front and center incorrect and explicity said. If a commenter felt clickbaited, it wouldn't be their fault. By saying, "the RAREST" (you used caps in the title) instead of a generic statement like "one of the rarest" or "a very rare", you show specifically Shiny Pawmott and the Destiny Mark in the thumbnail (can't be argued that you mean something else). This isn't even me forcing a meaning to your title, you said it definitively. I'd have to be a lawyer to argue that you meant anything else or were being sarcastic. Unless now, because it's about yourself it's okay, because what you really meant was "the RAREST shiny in [my file of] Pokémon Scarlet and Violet". Tell you what, I'll update my "misleading" description when you update your video title and description to no longer say "RAREST" unless you specify that it's just the "RAREST" one you own. Otherwise your focus on detail and accuracy and data over a generic statement, is a double standard. Here's some data for you, a post of "one of the rarest" (just one of an undefined group) Shiny Pokémon obtainable in Scarlet and Violet. A Rare Mark, Three Segment, Shiny Dudunsparce: www.reddit.com/r/ShinyPokemon/comments/zhhgrp/gen9_did_i_just_get_the_rarest_marked_shiny_in/? Really, it's a double standard to force the meaning of a generic statement, when you outright make a highly specific and unfounded statement with little room for interpretation as the TITLE and thumbnail. Especially, when you're calling my non-specific description misleading, based on your own interpretation of what counts as competitive, when your own video title is specific and misleading based on the average person's idea of "the rarest".

[@tysondennis1016]

Here’s my entry hazard ideas: -Metal Spikes: Steel-type Stealth Rock. Users include Ferroseed family, Forretress, Cufant family, and Maractus, among others. -Loose Thorns: The signature ability of a Grass/Ground-type cactus Fakemon. Sets up Spikes when hit by a physical move. -Minesweeper: Is immune to entry hazards, and removes them when switched in. -Ice Slick: An Ice-type entry hazard that damages grounded Pokémon that switch in for a percentage of their max HP determined by their weight (so the heaviest lose up to half, and the lightest lose a negligible amount). Ice-types won’t slip. Users include Iron Bundle, Bergmite family, Snorunt family, and Cryogonal, among others.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Those are fun ideas. I have a feeling that if Game Freak added minesweeper...they'd take the literal approach and make it a random chance to "Minesweep" or take damage like in the PC game. (-T^T)

[@brianzmek7272]

Caltrops were also used in the age of sail on ships

[@edwinschanel]

I don’t mind the double layer idea

[@rgmoses2189]

17:51 😂😂😂 you're too great for this world

[@tommydlh]

Small thing, but I noticed a note in the vid saying one layer of toxic spikes is bad I think one layer t spike (and poison in general) is pretty underrated, and at least as good as setting 2 layers in many situations given it takes half the setup. You get the same boost to moves like hex, and 12% damage each turn is extremely good for momentum-heavy teams and battles, making so many 3HKOs into 2HKOs. Toxic is great vs stall, vs setup, and for stall, but otherwise I usually prefer regular poison

[@Aegisdex]

Idk if someone pointed it out yet but before gen 6 manually set and ability set weathers were permanent so it technically was a goon investment, its just that it wasnt good enough as just attacking the snorlax to chip it down or ttar just existing to negate all of that. Gen 4 ou was basically built around sand chip and hazards and gen 5 is called weather wars for obvious reasons.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Oh, that was me, I pointed that out. Also, no, manual set weather has always had a 5 turn limit in mainline games (without the special held items.

[@petelee2477]

3:54 here's a fun fact. Despite being a ground type move not a single ground type Pokemon can learn Spikes unless you count Greninja with protein.

[@teeweezeven]

You just gave me an idea: hot coals. Basically fire type stealth rock, but it would take two turns to set (so one charging turn like solar beam, then the coals are set), maybe make it do damage too, like 65 base power? Idk what number would be good.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Hot Coals would be a hot idea for Stealth Rock clone, wouldn't it?

[@browncow5210]

I've always thought Stealth Rock was OP, and screwed over some types and mon for being weak to this one move. Flying distinguished itself by being immune to spikes, but then they made one that kills fliers. My suggestion would be to simply destroy SR by switching in a rock type, similar to toxic spikes. Rock could use the boost. For a fire hazard, I like the idea of a lava pit trap that burns the next grounded target to switch in and disappears afterwards. Switching in a fire type will absorb it.

[@supermudkipz]

I heard an idea before for Rock Smash to become 75 Base Power and have it shatter Stealth Rocks when used, like Brick Break but for breaking Rocks. It was an interesting idea.

[@jimtsap04]

Yeah but it can still be blocked by ghost types so it's effectively just as easy to play around it as rapid spin, if it were on a type with no immunities to it or at least immunities that aren't ghost I could see it making more of a splash

[@supermudkipz]

@@jimtsap04 you could make Rock Smash, well, Rock type in that case

[@tomlom69]

Stealth rock just shouldn't have a weakness mechanic. Its still different enough from spikes, as it would hit all mons for 1/8th damage regardless of typing or ability. Spikes can be stacked to do more but doesn't affect flying types and mons with levitate.

[@MyHandleIsAplaceholder]

Before watching: I hope this video talks about an ice type stealth rock because I actually had the idea of one and I called it "Trolly Icicle"

[@ghetoknight7801]

Hot coals is such a nice sounding ability

[@enkidude]

Sorry for my newbie takes: Just make rocks be neutral and only affect flying types. So theyre just sky spikes. Sorry gliscor. Or... make hazards for all types. Make a limit for the amount of hazards that can be up, and only two "typed" hazards up at once. Add more spins/defogs but lower distribution. Dual weak mons should not take 50%. 12.5% per weakness, to a dual max of 25%. If you want 50% you'll need Gravity to be active. Also entry heals. Adds some interesting strategy dynamics. For example, you really want to set up. Maybe your opponent does too. Maybe you're bluffing. Maybe you're setting something else up. Either way it will churn the tides somehow. Lower hazard PP. Amend some very common abilities (such as sturdy, keen eyes, run away) to ignore/dampen hazard damage, abd have some healed by hazards. Make normal types take less hazard dmg than any other type. Other hazard setups that can raise or lower stats, like web. The thinking being, if its all possible, matches will be more interesting and less predictable (esp now with tera) and top competitive team trends could possibly become less homogenous and more amorphous, and possibly jailbreak banned mons.

[@drowzypollinator640]

I think the argument that stealth rock should be only limited to rock types is a bit too general of fix and doesn't get to the issue with is availability. Like you mentioned, the ability to add pressure should come at a cost or investment. In it's current state, stealth rocks is available on mons like garchomp and landorus. You would expect stealth rocks to be set by Pokémon that are mostly defensive or have strong rock or trapping theming. Pokémon that might have to naturally rely on stealth rocks to ensure their biological niche, not the strongest earthquake spamming monsters there are. One might expect the opportunity cost of bringing a Pokémon that puts less immediate offensive pressure but brings more passive offensive pressure would be worth the team slot. But you get best of both worlds when your pressure is both strong stab earthquakes and stealth rocks or extreme defensive staying power of most steel types and the passive offensive pressure of stealth rocks.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Yep, we agree. Limiting it to Rock-types doesn't fix the core issue.

[@logicavietii4461]

Hello, so I want to point out something, in the current generation (gen 9) spikes are the superior hazard and the reason for it is simple. Because of heavy duty boots a majority of pokemon with rocks weeknesses hold them, and because of this most other pokemon are just hitted neutraly, so in most cases spikes and rocks would do the same amount of damage, but they are pokemon with rock resistence witch means most times spikes do more damage +the posibility of haveing multiple layers+ the most used pokemon rn is Great Tusk witch is the beat form of hazard control because it is a spinner witvh can beat ghouldengo.

[@artje90]

heavy duty boots for me fixed the issue of over use and effectiveness of hazards and keeps focus sashes in check for screens tbh only gen 3 had the max 5 turn screen time, the screens worked different in gen 1 and 2 and gen 4 as stated gave light clay so it always was kinda an option for the 8 turns

[@ucjepkjl7fbne6shltft3mlw8]

Since the move is both mechanically strong and weirdly specific in what it does in-universe ("floating stones", huh?), I think it would make good sense to restrict its distribution to Rock-type Pokémon with a solid levitation-affiliation: Lunatone, Solrock, Nosepass & Probopass. (Maybe 5 more Gens down the line Claydol & Cryogonal can get it as part of regular movepool creep).

[@wheelsdex7428]

I like a half approach, where you let stealth rock keep the type effective damage (while slightly nerfing it) but it doesn't stack for dual types. Which would also means dual types couldn't resist it. It'd just check to see if a bug/flying/rock/fire mon was on the field and deal them a slightly increased amount of damage. Keeps the flavor but isn't as outright countering to weaker mons of those types. I also think a good balance is to have the base damage be a bit more than one layer of normal spikes

[@wheelsdex7428]

Also on the topic if automation, I've always held the opinion that any automated form of a field move should be nerfed in some way compared to the original to turn them from replacements to fun gimmicks that do not outright replace the normal status move

[@walaceandrade4046]

Well, in this case the flavor just support a bad game balance and honestly, it should get Axed.

[@OtherMinfan]

What do you think about rocks "breaking" after dealing a certain amount of precent? (100% for example)

[@CammyMeeleTea]

I like that. As with many Stealth Rock changes, it's just an abstract mechanic, it's something I'd really have to get my hands on and get a "feel" for it.

[@Redpoppy80]

So, about the opportunity costs of temporary effects like screens, weather, terrain's ect. Something that needs to be said is that 5 turns is not long enough of a base for most of these effects. They need to last longer by default. I like the idea of an attack doing direct damage and setting a tempory effect and in those cases, 5 turns is fine but using a dedicated move and turn for the action should last longer as a balance for giving up all other actions that turn.

[@fillphd]

nice video!

[@SavveGaming]

What if stealth rock was just a damaging move that set up stealth rocks for a few turns but they did the same amount of damage or more since it’s limited. Just something to consider.

[@Bravooo524]

Anyone else notice the stomach noises 5:55 lol! Great video though:)

[@CammyMeeleTea]

That was my cat Yuri. He was dreaming in the room while I was recording. Sometimes he'll make weird noises.

[@cariboowho]

the axes in the graphic at 15:45 are rotated 90 degrees compared to the graphic that came right before them

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Yes.

[@Bayzer0191]

It would help if *more* hazard removing *attacks* existed. The only ones that exist are Rapid Spin, and Glimmora's exclusive move Mortal Spin. Rapid Spin's distribution is small, and Defog is out of the question against Stone Axe or Ceaseless Edge spam. Judging by Rapid Spin and Mortal Spin, it seems that spinning moves can launch any hazards away from the field. There are a HANDFUL of spinning/rolling moves that don't have this effect. Ice Spinner, Flame Wheel, Gyro Ball, Steel Roller, ETC. Giving these kinds of moves (or at least a select few) the hazard removal effect would make hazards less oppressive, and would allow for more team compositions that have at least ONE way of removing them. Attacks that use *waves* of water should be able to *wash away* hazards. It would give more reasons to run Surf or Muddy Water over Scald. Maybe even *Sludge Wave* can have this effect... but maybe it doesn't work on Toxic Spikes. There should also be a case with moves that use *harsh winds* to attack. Air Slash and Air Cutter wouldn't exactly count as they use wind to CUT, but moves like *Hurricane* should be able to blow hazards away like with Defog. There could be an argument for Earthquake and Magnitude being able to remove *Spikes* and *Toxic Spikes* by launching or scattering them with the shaking/quaking. It wouldn't affect Stealth Rock/Steel since they *float* in the air, thus unaffected by those moves.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

I like that, totally agree. I think it's great when the game evolves and adds new ways of doing things. It is contingent on how it is done which is why whenever I mention nerfing something, it's to create room for future additions. I like the idea of automated hazards, and automatically removing hazards. And if the existing hazards/hazard removal has options that are too strong, adjust them so that we can move forward. They've done it before with weather, terrain, and the screens. There's a reason I'm making videos and getting my ideas out there rather than posting on a forum somewhere. I'm not appealing to tell the community to adjust their unofficial simulators or ban lists, I'm trying to make the ideas, good or bad, get noticed or discussed. Even if some random Game Freak developer notices my video browsing KZbin while taking a dump, clicks the video and agrees with a few ideas. That would be great. I don't need the series to be exactly in my image, I just need to see it steadily progress. Heck, a few of my videos are basically nitpick that don't really affect any competitive format too intensely. Like my Pickpocket or Revavroom videos, but they're little things that could mean the world to a singles player or nuzlocker, and I feel like we leave players that don't do competitive PvP behind sometimes and are highly reductive and gatekeepy about their opinions.

[@randaljr.8581]

if i redid it, id have spikes stay the same (having 3 layers and only hitting grounded pokemon), but have stealth rocks ONLY hit flying types/levitating pokemon and do a flat 25%.

[@opposumness3107]

That's probably the low key best one I've seen yet. And I'm been looking for a while. Well done

[@pikminman13]

who you expect to wear timbs: volcarona, charizard, frosmoth who actually wears timbs: blissey, slowbro, pex i think the damage dampening is the best option. the point of the hazard is to make it do a variable amount that sets it apart from spikes.

[@typemasters2871]

I like the idea mixing 2 layers with tighter damage range, 1/4 to double weak with one layer, 1/12 to double resist with two layers, Pokemon that take neutral damage take same damage no matter if it’s one layer or two layers. Ice type version of stealth rock called “Ice spike” or “Icicle shard” would be a cool addition (pun intended) Of course if other type versions of stealth rock are added, then they would either have to automatically replace stealth rocks (only 1 type of type effective entry hazard at a time) or can’t be set until stealth rocks is removed manually

[@CammyMeeleTea]

I do like that idea of "one type effective hazard at a time". It forces you to commit to just one, and not mindlessly throw up one.

[@nathanblumprazeres3617]

in 2 specific fangames I've seen a very cool rework, similar to your 3rd attribute essentially, it hits airborne pokemon with 1/4 whereas non airborne pokemon with 1/8 with this rework mediocre types like ice and bug don't get further gimped, but the flying type and levitate spammers do. With this change stealth rocks become a very good complementary hazard to spikes instead of being "spikes but better", nerfing pokemon like skarm and zapdos but not making pokemon like frosmoth effectively useless

[@CammyMeeleTea]

I really like that! Maintains the uniqueness, and is fair in what it targets.

[@MrEntinen]

Isn't that quite literally spikes but better? You get the effects of having one spikes along with an upside. It's basically same as old rocks or better on everything but few dual types. Extra 12.5% on skarmory and landorus-t alone makes it a terror.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

@@MrEntinen Makes sense, we can rework the rework.

[@MrEntinen]

Would have to be worse than spikes in some interactions for one. Maybe a simple 1/10 and 2/10 for landed and airborne. It would still be very meaningful on airbornes while being somewhat inferior to a single spike on groujded without being stackable. Or just go full nuclear and make it do nothing on grounded mons and do 1/3 on levitators.

[@joewrape1471]

I don't know if we should change stealth rock to this, or just make a new hazard, but i want a hazard which only activates once, but does a boat load of damage. Imagine doubling stealth rock's power, but it only hits once.

[@zelz3011]

I have an Idea. What if abilities like Heavy Metal Take Half effect from any Hazard and Shatters Hazards under them like Stealth Rock and at least 2 Layers of spikes with a 50% Chance of a 3rd Layer Maybe though they might only shatter the Steel one or maybe they just wouldn't. Light Metal would then avoid Hazards in a specific order starting with the highest one Stealth Rock then avoiding Spikes and then a 50% Chance to avoid any Hazards from then or I guess if the steel one is up. The Intimidate style boosting some abilities and maybe Items. Like doing the RR Change of Shield Dust being immune to hazards and I think some other abilities could be made to be immune to Hazards.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

That Heavy Metal change is pretty fun. I agree, both those abilities should have some other utility too. My partner nuzlockes Radical Red, so I'll ask her about it.

[@supremeoverlordfallen5]

My own rework: making signature move of Kleavor. My inspiration: Volcanion's Scald.

[@johnbauduin1563]

From what I read it seems that rock types being able to move, switch into, or get buffed by Stealth Rock is a very common idea. Moves like Rock Throw removing or switching the Stealth Rock to the other side. Maybe Rock types gaining 1.25 more attack when Stealth Rock in on their field. If I was gonna be extreme, I would even make rock types gain leviate when on Stealth Rock and gaining immunity to Ground moves. Overall though your ideas on limiting damage to being a baseline or its type effectiveness not reaching over 25% are genius. PS. Someone said that Rock Smash should remove Stealth Rock.

[@CammyMeeleTea]

Oh man, someone mentioned that idea on one of my ice type videos and I completely forgot to talk about Roch Smash breaking Stealth Rock. I'll have to add it in a follow up.

[@FireShell8415]

I think rock types shattering stealth rocks would be good for giving rock types more utility and stealth rocks should allow be limited to rock types. Also 100% lower damage output.

[@Alexs23743]

7:51: lol wut 17:49: bigger lol wut...now I want to catch a Gumshoos and nickname it "D. Trump", just to see what will happen. 20:50: Hey, that's kinda my move! (My idea for a "Hot Coals" entry hazard had it burn instead of do damage.)

[@PokeBrodie]

i think SR is the most healthy move in the meta game since it’s release maybe besides one

[@ShadowXeldron]

Only doin 1/6th (or even 1/7th) seems like the best option to me. That way it doesn't make Stealth Rock weak Pokemon completely useless whilst still having a noticeable effect. It also makes it more viable to. See, I like Stealth Rocks. When my Shuckle who I'm going to make viable by my dying breath is the one using them.

[@CoralReaper707]

Oh boy. Stealth rock. Never liked this move. Thank you for making some changes. If I'm not mistaken, would this be foreshadowing to a general rework of the Rock type? Also, thank you for nerfing the quad weak damage.

[@SagaciousSilence]

SR exists to balance Flying types, which were immune to other entry hazards. The change SR should get is obvious: it should only do double damage against Flying types. Boom, balanced.

[@jameswalker4344]

I'm shocked we still don't have an ability that sets gravity

[@mirac8803]

I don't believe the devs will care about reworking Stealth Rock because Pokémon, it's still very cool to see these ideas! :)

[@floofzykitty5072]

In Singles, switching is extremely powerful and is one of the reasons why VoltTurn is so annoying and powerful to have on a team. This means Stealth Rock is borderline necessary for a team to have in its arsenal. Even hyper offense teams utilise Stealth Rock and Spikes to ensure crucial OHKOs are secured. That being said, Stealth Rocks type effectiveness damage amp is ridiculous. This one move has single handedly gatekept several Rock weak Pokemon from being viable in OU + UU before HDB, and the huge prevalence of HDB on even non-Stealth Rock weak Pokemon says a lot about its' strength. I think rather than the damage scale being exponential (3 - 6 - 12 - 25 - 50), it should be linear (3 - 6 - 9 - 12 - 15).

[@99999bomb]

Sticky Web should affect flyers tbh, afterall its a spider web, which is used to catch flying insects, when is the last time youve seen a cockroach walk into a spider web?

[@saltlakeatrocity9771]

I think the core of the issue is guaranteed damage. Just like with reflect and light screen being split so neither has a guaranteed effect, i think making stealth rock only deal damage to some subset of pokemon. My argument would be in favor of only dealing damage to pokemon weak to rock type, and for it to deal a fixed % of damage regardless of single or double weakness. Id argue for 12.5%. But the point being is that spikes cannot hit flying or levitating pokemon, so making SR not have some similar limitation just makes it the empirically better option and removes decision-making. But that said, i do think some other entry hazard should be introduced to help counter bulky steel types like Magearna. Id argue for something electric in nature, like "Conduit" as one possible example. This could also check bulky water types. These specifics out of the way, the point is that i dont think SR should be one size fits all. But thats just my take.

[@theruleroftheinternet8260]

I don't play competitive so take my words with a grain of salt. I think it's damage just needs to be lowered a bit and I think more hazards with different types should be made. This will make it so every type haves something interesting about it

[@randomprotag9329]

current state stealth rock should be exclusive to rock types. it would help rock as rock has a niche for more powerful hazards and every non rock has spikes instead. even a nerfed stealth rock should still be exclusive to rocks so that theres not the ice beam issue where a water with icebeam can replace a ice type.

[@VegaPhil]

I hate all hazards so I build my teams without them. It maybe to the detriment of winning a few extra games but I’d rather stick to my principles and tbh in Ubers where I like to play it doesn’t make as big a difference. I still have to account for them in some way though by including a defogger which annoys me. I actually wish there was a mode where they weren’t a part of the game, just for fun, and actually would be cool if you could toggle on/off certain clauses but we’ll never see this