Stealth Test & Comparison: Hornet Ghost Mk I vs. Ghost Mk II | Star Citizen Science & Fun [4k]

[@jimrussell4062]

In theory (if the game were like real life) then it DOES make sense for the IR signature to go up with more/bigger coolers. The cooling is for components INSIDE the ship, and like air conditioning it has to take that head and move it somewhere (outside the ship) so that exhaust into space DOES make the signature go up because the sensors trying to detect you are OUTSIDE your ship. That makes perfect sense if you are talking about cooling computer systems inside a ship (like servers) and not cooling exhaust. Just like the hot air coming out of your computer.

[@NozomuYume]

This is correct, and in the old system you could do exactly this manually. You could set your coolers to cool less to reduce your IR signature, but that heat would be stored up inside your ship until it started to overheat. The best balance was setting your coolers such that they could gradually cool your ship but not cool your ship in spikes as you performed short duration heat-generating actions. The new interface and component system is extremely simplified over the old one, and while some of the simulation is still running internally, it's hidden from the user with no way to access the data of cooling rates etc. I guess they dd this to make the game less scary to console players.

[@jamaelhil4014]

Which would make these things terrifying to see on Microtech once environmental temperature affects your ship - and thus your signature.

[@jamaelhil4014]

@@NozomuYumehopefully, the full implementation of Engineering and the Resource Network allows them to let proper engineering terminals micromanage your ship systems while mfds are delegated to the simplified approach. Then, ideally, there’s a reason you’d have to use tune smaller ships before you launch, making larger ships with dedicated Engineering areas are much more valuable for long term use.

[@NozomuYume]

@@jamaelhil4014 "Engineering" shouldn't be based on where you sit. It's all a computer system, not physical valves and handles. "Engineering" should be a role that is taken because the intelligence and attentiveness needed to perform the task is greater than the pilot can provide while flying the ship. There should be absolutely not reason you can't pull up the engineering screens from any display on the ship. However my deep fear is that engineering will be glorified pipe puzzles and we won't get any actual numerical data on how our vehicle is performing or the ability to fine tune the numbers. i.e. engineering will be dumbed down so that anyone can do it easily without having to learn anything.

[@sc_cintara]

Also, the cooler itself draws power since it actively pumps heat out of your ship, adding it's own power draw to the heat.

[@nmtkawb]

I said it somewhere else, but turning off your cooler reducing IR makes sense. What cooler is doing is somehow actively emitting the heat from your ship and its components to outside the ship to cool it; thus larger IR. If you don't, your ship and component will continue to heat up, but it will only naturally emit, and in a vacuum of scape that should be very small. So what cooler must be doing is countering overheating but increasing IR

[@aleckotwaneb512]

it makes since unless we get heatsinks, coolers generate heat to pull heat from other systems like a heat pump

[@aleckotwaneb512]

maybe with heatsinks itll help more

[@anthonyrobinson4732]

​@aleckotwaneb512 Heatsinks, like for your PC, don't work very well in space. Way less molecules to exchange heat with.

[@rhadiem]

Overheating should cause damage to the ship components and eventually shut down the ship, or make things explode. So if you need to be extra stealthy you can take the gamble on component damage, because yes a big heat radiator on the outside of the ship should definitely affect IR values compared to keeping it in the internals.

[@carlosjackson6057]

Each cooler has a MAX cooling value, which should mean the maximum amount which it can cool. That doesn't mean that it should always pump out that amount of heat. The coolers should only pump out (and therefore be visible from outside the ship) the amount of heat which is being generated by the internal ship components/thrusters/weapons/etc as needed. Coolers need to be large enough to handle the maximum load required by the internal components, but having oversized coolers shouldn't generate more heat than appropriately sized coolers. Having undersized coolers, or correctly sized but under-powered coolers, should result in internal temperatures rising, and at some point taking damage due to heat. I haven't thoroughly tested cooling, but I have seen that you can reduce IR by reducing power to coolers up to a point, but below a certain threshold your IR begins to rise again. I think the system isn't fully implemented, but should in the end work this way. I totally agree with Cpt_FoxyLoxy, we shouldn't get in the habit of powering off coolers. Best strategy is to find what amount of cooling is needed for the desired ship/components/weapons, and keep those coolers powered.

[@Sanjarih]

Please make a detailed comparison between the Ghost MkII and Sabre (base)

[@gryphon3241]

Others have said it here, but in space there is no atmosphere to bleed off the heat buildup from your ship. it literally just builds and builds and builds until something breaks or melts down from the heat, so coolers increasing your ir sig when on is the definition of logical, because the whole point of a cooler is to bleed that heat out into the space outside your ship. Just like how the fans that cool your pc pump hot air out of the case, the heat has to go somewhere

[@Voss44]

Super helpful info to build out my 4.0 loadout for the MK2. Cheers.

[@entropyapathy]

tl;dw MK I: 1063 IR - 1369 EM - 1357 Front CS - 4860 Side CS - 5254 Top CS MK II: 900 IR - 1475 EM - 1495 Front CS - 5355 Side CS - 5789 Top CS

[@Xaveth]

Ahhhh.... this is one I've been waiting for. Thank you Cpt_Foxyloxy!

[@Vioblight]

Nice 👍🏼 I’m still a Sabre fan tho

[@viktorkiss3495]

Thanks this amasing presentation!

[@Citizen_Slambo]

Amazing! Thank you

[@LittleTed2]

These Science & Fun vids just keep gettin better. Keep it up Foxy! o7 from SMaloo16

[@tumoril_6398]

Unless the coolers use some sort of transfer of the heat to pocket universe, would it not make sense that less coolers would lower the IR since the only way the can cool it to radiate heat into space? That's the concept behind the Normandy's internal heatsinks in mass effect for stealth, though they still have to eventually dump heat or cook the crew.

[@Royaltea_Citizen]

Love the thumbnail!

[@Chili-Lochnagar]

Good testing thanks Foxyloxy

[@boxofcannons600]

Nothing stealth about that color. lol.

[@ripl0x]

Way better than the 2054 BIS paints, LMAO.

[@karmabad6287]

​@@ripl0x true

[@Armabelico]

They're looking for military spaceships that's perfect :D

[@Arcova]

Dunno what you on about, Magenta is just bright purple, and purple is the sneakiest colour

[@protoni6996]

😂 you are so right. i have start use way more 100x zoom and overall visuals bc so many ships are really stealth. and you can see even F7 really far. and this is gonna definitely help that 😂

[@TiltedTortle]

I always guessed that coolers create IR when on because they are moving the heat from your components to external heatsinks. So turning a cooler off will lower IR, and a bit of EM, at the risk of damaging your components.

[@Patch1xo]

I love your stealth videos

[@asiftalpur3758]

foxy that thumbnail alone is amazing

[@ndrekorte]

Nice video! Have you already compared the F7C Hornet Ghost MKII and the F7A Hornet MKII when both are configured for maximum stealth? I would be interested in seeing that comparison.

[@Hemebean]

Coolers overall increase the heat signature of the ship. That is correct. They use energy to take heat from components then dump that heat somewhere else in the ship, radiators for example. They do not and cannot make heat simply dissapear (Law of conservation of energy).

[@circuit014]

Could you compare the Ghost MK II vs the Eclipse when it comes to stealth?

[@Reivbv]

They put the F7A on the IAE showroom floor but aren’t selling it on the shop 😢

[@Hunikengt]

It was never sold. F7A MKI was a gift from CIG for who had the F7A conversion kit just for the looks, not the hard points and weapons. The F7A MKII was an event reward which was basically an upgrade token one time deal, you had to buy F7C MKII then upgrade it to F7A MKII ship.

[@Reivbv]

@ Yup. I’m talking about the F7A MKII. They gave upgrade kits to people who finished Xeon Threat. I’m just saying they put the F7A MKII on the Anvil IAE showroom floor but it is not for sale on the website. A bit strange of a decision to show off the F7A when they don’t plan on selling it. My theory is they will sell it on the finale day.

[@Hunikengt]

@Reivbv oh but they did showcase it before in the previous IAE while it wasn't in player hands. The F7A MKII was just this year in player's hands. But yeah, hopefully they sell it as an upgrade token so people can get LTI on it using a base F7C MKII.

[@ddavis5442]

​@Reivbv won't sell the f7a, they'll sell the f7c and run the event again. They said it will be an event again in the future.

[@Reivbv]

@@ddavis5442 Knowing CIG man, they dropped the Tracker and Ghost first because people who missed out on the F7A will buy it. Then to double down on sales they will sell the F7A for the Finale. From a Marketing and Sales point of view this sales strategy checks out.

[@telum9861]

If you could provide a URL for that ship viewer site, that'd be great... Thank you!

[@snowmind]

Now I've seen it all! The Star Citizen flying UNICORNS are real! How could you @FoxyLoxy? PS: BTW I'm throwing a tea party later on today, come join us, I'll bring my trusty F8C all dressed up in its BIS uniform and we'll have such a great time comparing paint varnish... yay...

[@Alundil_55]

Nice vid Foxy. My wife wants to know where you got that pink skin lol.

[@cpt_foxyloxy]

That is a visual bug in the 4.0 patch, but they've already fixed that.

[@Alundil_55]

@cpt_foxyloxy lol ok she was so excited when she saw that pink paint lol

[@Ono_on0]

what paint is that? cant see it in the store

[@camblackwood6414]

Would also like to know

[@Depriest42]

Wonder if cutting your engine changes the detection range in relation to orientation to target.

[@WTenno]

Still love the pink paint! 😁😁😁🫡

[@ikuk_u]

was this an actual paint?

[@panakajack1525]

​@@ikuk_u Its a bug

[@ikuk_u]

@@panakajack1525bummer, thank u

[@corwyncorey3703]

To summarize : *Assuming both use stealth components and ballistics, the F7A has a lot more guns, with only 0.9km more detection range.* F7A Mk. II configured for max stealth, can get down to 2.3 km detection range. F7C-S Ghost Mk II configured for max stealth, can get down to 1.4 km detection range. Biggest difference in stealth is that the F7A gets a 13% signature *increase* (The Ghost gets 28% decrease, total of 41% gap) and that is where the difference is, since the components are the same. The *other* big difference is the extra (ballistic) guns you might have mounted, such as 2xs4 Revenants, which is the same on both, but the F7A can also have 4xs3 Tigerstrike T-21 (they all have the same bullet speed, giving them all the same pip, with no more EM Signature or capacitor usage. (edited error in base Hornet stealth, thanks Kentyannayon3741)

[@unloyal4847]

So given the choice, which one would you bring in the field, thanks for the write up, for me I'd still prob use the F7A vs the Ghost since I'll be able to pick if I want to go stealth or just a brawler type.

[@corwyncorey3703]

@@unloyal4847 Since I have the harder to obtain F7A already, it would be my choice by default... But I won't deny that the Ghost has one more trick up its sleeve that it has yet to deploy: the "Ghost Center Cap", whatever that turns out to be. It may *just* be the bespoke extra 41% stealth item. (28% Ghost reduction, plus the Hornet's default 13% increase being removed) Neither ship would be a wasted spot in one's fleet. *Both* is, of course, ideal. Claim times are certainly a thing. Both have advantages. 1.4 km lets you slip in and out of stealth almost at will, breaking lock during a dogfight easier. Byr 4xs3 ballistic gatlings or canons does allow that initial "Surpriise MotherF'er!" moment to have a hell of a lot more kick. I think the "best choice" depends on "can I get onee" and "what kind of pilot am I, that fall more into my wheelhouse for combat style?" (edited the math thanks to Kentyannayon3703, nice catch)

[@unloyal4847]

@@corwyncorey3703 I really hope we get more concrete stuff on how stealth really works in the game, specially like what you said about the ghost's back item. I love the hornet series, evenmore so the mk2 2s, I fell inlove with the f7a mk2 when I first saw it during iae a few years ago and its cool to think theres a variant for different types of gameplay.

[@corwyncorey3703]

@@unloyal4847 Agreed 👍

[@kentyannayon3741]

F7A has a signature increase, not a reduction. It's still a good idea to use stealth components because they keep the signature lower to beat missiles with CM, but all hornet variants have a signature increase besides the ghosts.

[@deio977]

Interesting video :) May I ask how you get a pink Hornet paint? I am not aware of a pink paint in Star Citizen for Hornet variants.

[@AJxB]

Foxy can you test something for me. Hypothetically we can fit 2 Firebirds in the Polaris hangar, what if we outfit both of them with rattler ii's, that would mean a single volley of 6 rattler ii's would break up into a barrage of 42 mini missiles, and with two sabre firebirds that would be 84 minimissiles. completely oversaturating the pdc's of any ship, allowing for a volley of 4 size 10 torpedo to thread the needle and make contact with its target with ease. or maybe it wont. who knows. lol feel like testing this wild strat? id love to see it!!

[@gyratingwolpertiger6851]

Rattlers are size 2s and Firebirds are locked to S3 missile only.

[@AJxB]

Thank you, I think having a solo hammerhead instead with its 64 rattler ii’s would suffice

[@ReeseKerrigan]

Careful about the ranges guesstimation. You mention Pyro and in 4.0 EPTU there is a diff in ranges for different drives now.

[@carlosjackson6057]

Regarding cross section (CS) values, as far as I recall this value is only relevant when the detecting ship actively pings with their radar. In other words, cross section does not affect passive detection values. At least, this is how it was in previous releases, but I stopped following development a few patches ago. What it means is that your cross section probably isn't very important unless the other ship(s) which you are trying to hide from are alerted and actively pinging. Perhaps this behaviour has changed though, so I can't say with certainty. I also can't test it myself since I merged my alt account many patches ago. It would be a good test case for another video though, maybe equip stealth components on a ship with high cross section to get the IR and EM values well below CS value, then see if the ship actually remains undetected when beyond IR and EM range, but inside of CS range, until actively pinged. Edit: I should have watched the entire video before commenting, I see that you actually do test the cross section detection quite conclusively. The CS value does affect detection even without active pinging. Well, it's good to know how it works, but now I am even more confused about the thought process at CIG. If CS can be actively detected without pinging, it means that each ships radar is actually transmitting radio waves and detecting the returns, as radars do. If the stealth ships also use radar (which they do) then there should be absolutely nothing stealth about them. Any radar which is transmitting can be detected at much, much, much longer range than it can ever detect the echo/return from anything which it is trying to detect.

[@mateoemanuel3517]

did they release it to the game auec shop in 4.0?

[@BenitKolburn]

TYSM! o7

[@Solo_01]

@Foxy in @10:28 you show the Hornet Ghost I and that paint looks amazing. It reminds me of the Disney movie "Redtails". Anyway is that the original paint that comes with the Hornet Ghost MkI or was it a purchased paint scheme? Is it a UEE exclusive paint job? It looks amazing. Would love to see a squadron of Hornet's with that paint scheme.

[@clownlover1257]

This paint (Ironheart paint) was only available once to buy on the pledge store, at the time when the Mk1 serie stopped being sold to be replaced by the Mk2. It is supposed to be "exclusive" to this event, and will supposedly not be sold again. Nothing 100% sure but thats most likely what will happen.

[@Solo_01]

@@clownlover1257 Oh bummer, yet cool. Do you know if the paint can be used on the Mk2 variants as well?

[@Solo_01]

@@clownlover1257 Actually I think I found it. Is it the "Ironscale" paint. It's still on sale.

[@systemerror0101]

Ghost MkII vs Sabre

[@ghobii_x]

Has anyone confirmed or not if the stealth module does anything?

[@665Jan83]

What has the smallest signature a ghost or the stealth razor (both all stealth components)?

[@ddavis5442]

Your saying only a couple hundred but is that state to state? Is it only a couple hundred if the mk 2 has shields on (its signiture)?

[@valhallasashes4354]

Looking at the tools, it looks like reason the Hornet Ghost Mk.I has better stealth than the Mk.II is because of the Radar (which we can't change). The Mk.I has a stealth grade radar on it, where as the Mk.II has a military grade radar on it. The stealth radar on the Mk.I having a considerably lower EM rating to be added to your totals compared to the Mk.II. But even with the Mk.II's higher reduction values, it's not enough to compensate for that difference and even if you can get your overall levels low enough to be "comparable", you're left with a lot less room to run additional systems than the Mk.I.

[@ghazman6141]

I equipped my Ghost MK Deux with all Class A stealth (2 power plants) the night it went on sale. I put on Lightstrike lasers. Then I had a friend sit in space constantly scanning. I approached with my shields off, and got to 3K and he didn't see me. At around 2.6-2.8 he did. With shields on I think I got to around 9K. This ship is deadly the way it is now, but traditionally, you can expect them to nerf it in the next patch. The center and nose turrets available at Dumper's do not work on it.

[@MikeP2510]

Do you know if they work now with 4.0?

[@ghazman6141]

@@MikeP2510 I put all the stealth on it, but have no had the time to test it yet. Been salvaging and mining to get the buckazoids. :)

[@MikeP2510]

@@ghazman6141 same mate

[@WethDeath]

however, the factory set of Mk1 is stealthC, but MK2is military C... So, if you want to use the stealth build, you need to spend plenty of game credits to build it up first?

[@VarriskKhanaar]

Is the Mk2's signature the same as the Mk2 Ghost's signature?

[@shmayazuggot8558]

A pink stealth, lol… You should of tested the Ghosts unique capability - Void armour - aka invisible to ping’s..

[@Cozzyhane]

Still don’t understand how stealth works in this game. Can you make a detail explanation of how it works? Thanks in advance.

[@cpt_foxyloxy]

I've already made a lot of videos for this, here are some of the links: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jV7dlXtqjauXrq8 kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4O5qJVurdSZndk kzbin.info/www/bejne/fpjSZqKpgNJsfqs kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHyveqqIiKiHgrc kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4SThqmeopqDqNk kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaDCgZd7ht6fgKs Just to list a few

[@Cozzyhane]

@@cpt_foxyloxythanks I will check them out

[@Cozzyhane]

@@cpt_foxyloxybtw have you tested tracker ships against stealth ships?

[@PsyEm-p1j]

Not sure but SC Performance says 1346 m when powered off. You were in SCM which has a different value of 1675 m. Closer to the 1.5 you experienced I think. The site could do with expanding in this as my understanding may well be wrong but powered off is surely when you have no power to the ship and it’s just CS you are exposing to other radars?

[@yawnbox]

what about a recon with the ghost components?

[@CopperRavenProductions]

Foxy why! I got onto you about the white color for the eclipse. Now neon pink, in a stealth ship. I get it, you like the rare paints. But just because you can does not mean you should. Let the Look at me I have rare paints collection when it comes to stealth ships. Let it go bro Let It Gooooo

[@cpt_foxyloxy]

lol....I tried, but somehow the blackwidow paint turned into this neon pink.

[@th0_]

Very thorough as always. One thing I'm wondering though, how does the Hornet tracker play into this? I have no idea how radar works. Can the new Tracker find the ghost at longer ranges or is that not how it works? lol

[@Krieghandt]

That side of stealth hasn't been revealed yet. The Terrapin, Tracker, and other sensor ships should have something extra, but CIG isn't talking.

[@th0_]

@@Krieghandt I figured as much, thanks for the reply!

[@xXE4GLEyEXx]

Rented the Mk2 from IAE and took it for a bit of PvE bounty hunting and... Eh. I rather pick a Sabre (and will grind for once the 4.0 wipe goes down ^^) Going back to the Ghost Mk1 would be lovely without CIG making it removed from ingame shops... But oh well.

[@skankhunt9078]

Hmhmhm Dududududdu.. hmhmhm funky toooown

[@RoskoFig]

Ghost II looks like a cool little fighter, I'd love to try it, does it cost much?

[@Kothar-]

$165 warbond

[@RoskoFig]

@@Kothar- Jesus nevermind....

[@SledTillDead]

@@RoskoFig Haha my thoughts exactly. Combat ships in SC are ridiculously overpriced.

[@RoskoFig]

@@SledTillDead 😅

[@Lambonights]

I am sticking with my Mk1 regardless. The Mk2 is just too expensive for me.

[@xXE4GLEyEXx]

And frankly the MK1 matte black paint looks just waay better than the black/red on the new MK2

[@Lambonights]

@@xXE4GLEyEXx Agreed, although I do have a blue Invictus paint for my Mk1 Ghost too. Nothing beats the standard black livery, though.

[@combatbeard9937]

Cig give pink paint XD

[@xinj6142]

I feel like the tuning for the Ghost 2 is off. Definitely needs another pass.

[@Sidewayyss_gaming]

I understands your theory about the stealth and your doing it correctly "BUT" there's to mutch variable's going on for that game play to work correcty if your target moves just a little bit your stealth is gone so you must have your position right aaaand try to compensate for your target that is moving on 6 Axis 😵😵😵

[@KiithnarasAshaa]

Maybe it's just me being weird, but I personally like the Mk1 look far more than the Mk2 look.

[@SICARiO_H88]

Do you know the prowler is more stealthy than sabre and hornet! .... You should check that drop ship

[@seanwarren9357]

Im blaming youtube for my 18 minute tardiness.

[@wrextheblind3787]

It’s the pink for me boo boo

[@Ono_on0]

where to buy this paint btw

[@wrextheblind3787]

@ I hear it’s a glitch and not a actual paint option

[@RavingNut]

What I find BS about the Mk 2 Ghost is that it doesn't even come stock with stealth components (and no Mk 2 Civi nose mount models for it too).

[@SiewcaPozogi]

3:40 Its not really agains logic. You have ship in space. Components getin hot, but the heat is spread among all of them inside the ship. Cooler takes all that heat and concentrate it in heat spreader which emits IR. One less cooler means component run hotter, but less heat is dissipated outside.

[@mrvei-vg7et]

sabre wins lol, but if cig fixes the MKII for use more guns, then mkII would win

[@specialcircs]

That paint isn't very stealthy ;-)

[@mo2gotchas419]

Mk1 ghost: more hp, more stealth, more power. Mk2 besides s4 weps is the worse ship.

[@theamericanaromantic]

It’s like you read my mind

[@emperor_pewpew2903]

Makes no sense thay mk1 is stealther that mk2 lmao

[@Lambonights]

In a way it does, as the Mk2 carries bigger guns. That's the possible trade-off CIG are thinking about. Time will tell, as it could all change.

[@emperor_pewpew2903]

It makes even less sense now that you said that be 1 the guns are ballistics they don't give of ir and 2 the cross section of the weapons are basically 0. Have a mark 2 would mean that they made improvements in stealth capabilities and warfare. Why upgrade if the previous version is better?

[@rory-red]

god luck with that stealth isn't even implemented in SC

[@SickPrid3]

dude is flying around overheating and without life support systems 😂

[@OffgridBetaFish]

So they still did not complete MK1 ghost and they took a massive shit on all old owners and released and MK2 version. Great. Another proof that CIG don’t deserve any more money till they start releasing and completing older concepts

[@TiltedTortle]

Did I watch a different video? It looked like the Mk1 was actually better at stealth than the Mk2. What was "not complete" compared to the mk2?

[@SledTillDead]

@@TiltedTortle The guy's having a Karen episode, ignore him

[@carlosjackson6057]

There is nothing “Karen” about that post. The ghost mk1 is missing physicalized components and has no weapons rack yet. On top of that, CIG added lights in the cockpit which shine directly in the pilots face which makes any nighttime planetary combat extremely treacherous. I don’t think it is any coincidence that change occurred as they were releasing the Hornet Mk2. It follows the usual CIG pattern on nerfing the living shit out of existing ships to push people to buy newer, more expensive ships.

[@SledTillDead]

@@carlosjackson6057 Carlos must be the male version of Karen it seems. Get a grip dude