Stellaris Traditions Tier List

[@benoithudson7235]

Diplomacy for a fanatic purifier is ... why-the-heck-is-it-even-an-option tier.

[@briankearney5994]

Maybe for the off chance you have a same species purifier? Still hilarious. Also, possible to shed the FP with the god emperor/empress event IIRC. Devouring swarms truly can’t have any friends ever though so def useless for them.

[@ez_theta_z9317]

the envoys can be handy for espionage

[@Loki19810310]

"I am the Senate!"

[@therealspeedwagon1451]

@@briankearney5994 fanatic purifier explicitly says “cannot do diplomacy with other species” I’ve played as the Ordenstaat der Menschheit (basically the Commonwealth of Man but on steroids) and I’ve done diplomacy with the UNE, even though of course I was a purity order dictatorship and they didn’t like my blatant xenophobia.

[@briankearney5994]

@@therealspeedwagon1451 Yep, that’s why I said you pretty much need another purifier of your species to make diplomacy much of a thing. You get -1000 to your own species non-purifiers, but +200 of you are both genocidal maniacs of the same species.

[@spordlospardle7828]

Funny how those small buffs to ships make Subterfuge go C tier. Would probably be the very bottom without it.

[@TempestLM]

Would be even lower than F

[@Fynzmirs]

That and the envoy

[@Rotblattchinchilla12]

Subterfuge can be higher on games with tech cost increased by ridicoulus amounts, just by being able to steal tech from others :D

[@Zathurious]

I like the double agent of this tradition. It notifys me when someone is attempting shannanigans in my empire. And I know who did it. But, I don't disagree with montu's assessment.

[@poilboiler]

Since it's locked behind paid dlc making it A or S tier quality would have been an incredible shitty move by paradox.

[@lamename2010]

I would argue that starbase influence cost reduction, if stacked with some other reductions can be very potent. Of course this still puts expansion into the "fine" position of needing to be picked first to matter the most, but when the influence cost of a new starbase is at 30-something, you can build 3 for the price of one and just expand outwards like crazy in the initial rush for space. I can't count the number of times i have been able to rush forward and cut someone off into their own tiny bubble of space, while i then was able to easily gobble 5x as much space real estate as any of my neighbors had. (Might actually explain why the empire size reduction is there, as it takes time to get more of those scientists to counter the impact that that sort of real estate has on you)

[@matt46142]

Xenophobe + Expansionist and I can basically ignore my influence because there’s always going to be enough.

[@nicholasvogel9783]

the best is when you are able to steal a guaranteed hab

[@hannesgranlund8838]

Even if it isnt stacked, its still useful as influence is desperately needed for vassal negotiation

[@Slysheen]

I have a bit of a different view on expansion. It's a good "training wheels" tradition for new players as the bonuses help mitigate the problems they tend to run into. They did for me. The influence reduction is good when you don't know the relative value of a systems resources yet and spam starbases. It also helps you race for an important choke point if your planning isn't super great. The extra pop helps mitigate resource shortages when people are trying to figure out how the early game economy works, when pops are at their most significant. The sprawl reduction is significant when someone doesn't know how important early labs are And the extra district is good when you don't understand terraforming or habitability modifiers and need to make the most out of a few high compatability planets. Most of these advantages pale naturally as you improve at the game, but it really smooths out the early game experience for a newcomer. I still used to take it occasionally for the extra districts but now that orbital rings exist I fear I must retire it with a bittersweet smile, Happy Trails Expansion, our travels together were lovely

[@MontuPlays]

I think that's a very reasonable idea!

[@seandor]

I like going expansion tree for machine empire or subterranean cause I colonize every planet and those added pops def add up

[@Heshla_Biea]

On a huge galaxy, the influence reduction for starbases is more significant. It takes about 100 years to run out of space often and it makes you 11% bigger than you would otherwise be until that point.

[@MatthewChenault]

The extra pop helps out because you don’t have to waste another several years just to start making a planet productive. Also, the colony development speed is pretty good for getting your empire up and running. It very much is a “you must pick this first if you want it to be useful” tradition. I also wouldn’t call it “good for starting players.” It is still fairly useful even for experienced players just for that small influence cost reduction, which can speed up expansion rapidly and claim the good choke points fairly quickly. Also, with the new Teachers of the Shroud origin offering a new route for expansion very early on, it’s a critical tradition to pick up just to exploit the advantages of having an automatic gateway to another part of the galaxy.

[@janehrahan5116]

@@MatthewChenault No one in competitive mp uses expansion in a serious build.

[@cyanide7270]

To me, Discovery will ALWAYS be my first pick. Being able to survey systems faster, and therefore claim them before anyone else is always useful, and of course extra research alternative and research speed in the early game, carried through to late game is extremely valuable.

[@ener11454]

Map the Stars is the strongest part of Discovery, that early bonus to scouting range is just huge. The rest of the tree is just ok.

[@keagasourus9883]

I usually am between expansion and discovery first, but usually go expansion, but then discovery is always second, and the reason why is I can always survey faster than I can claim anyways so claim cost is better than survey speed hands down the best benefit of expansion

[@lucasbrant9856]

in every game my bottleneck to claiming has always been influence and not surveying. Science ships are not that expensive so its very to survey way more than you can claim

[@ener11454]

To be clear Map the Stars is not about the survey, it is about the scouting range. It lets you identify bottlenecks that lets you claim 5-15 extra systems if you reach them. It is not abnormal for me to control twice the number of systems as all of my opponents in a game because I can see the perfect systems to take early.

[@cyanide7270]

@@lucasbrant9856 im the same as Ken in that regard. Ill have 4-6 science ships up ASAP, using half to actually survey while the rest are off looking for choke point systems and claiming those. Theyre more expensive, yes, but in the long run preventing others from claiming the systems behind them mkes up for it long term, or in best case scensrios, literally locking others into small pockets with no other way out. Again though as i originally said, discovery for me is more about the research speed and alternative. The survey speed and such is more a secondary, yet still very valuable bonus.

[@thefluffywang6100]

I’ve found that playing as a hegemonic overlord with the subterranean origin, adaptability and unyielding made my choke points with planets virtually unbreakable

[@MontuPlays]

Yeah, subterranean will do that. It is a beast for defensive planets

[@d-hat]

Colossus has entered the chat

[@TheArklyte]

@@d-hat and met 3 planetary rings and starbase all with 30+ platforms with neutron launchers with system wide range already there...

[@TheArklyte]

I would have thought that it would synergize well with being Bulwark instead. Pity that you can't(at least I assume that you can't) combine being megacorp reliant on mercenary enclave dividends, having subterranean origins for fortress systems and being bulwark for your overlord.

[@m4rt3rnus]

@@TheArklyte sounds like some multiplayer shenanigans for me :D

[@guti_____v1232]

Love these tier lists. Thank you for doing them so frequently, so everytime i come back to play the game im aware what is good or bad

[@airbournelover]

i kept saying "unless your a void dweller" only to have montu say it 2 seconds later

[@MontuPlays]

what can I say, great minds think alike

[@MrMarinus18]

2:30 By far the most important is that +1 pop at establishment. Establishing a colony with all it's nececcities is by far the hardest part.

[@doctorritos2114]

I feel you're underselling the compounding effect that expansion has. Assuming you have two guaranteed worlds, starting off with extra pops can allow you to bring these colonies into the beneficial logistical pop growth curve years faster (since it takes years to grow a pop) than if you didn't have it (assuming you don't resettle any pops). This snowball effect compounds exponentially, dwarfing the economic benefit of the other traditions (aside from prosperity). Stellaris is a snowballing game. While the other traditions may be more prevalent in the mid-late game in terms of benefit, none supercede Expansion in its early-game bonuses, hence its vitality as a first pick (contending with discovery or perhaps mercantile for some trade builds).

[@CM-db5cg]

So much this. Expansion as your very first tradition is a completely diffrtent beast to expansion later on. The only time I don't take it is recently when I've been doing a unity based mastercrafted trade empire, because getting marketplace of ideas and merchants to get my unity ball rolling just pays off.

[@stoopidapples1596]

yeah i think putting expansion in f tier is incredibly ignorant of its use early game. sure it doesn't do much for you 100 years down the track, but getting those early extra pops means being able to take over other empires extremely quickly, being able to build up your economy and outpace your neighbours, as well as easily capture the important choke points before your opponents do. these benefits may be exclusive only to the early game, making it quite irrelevant late-game, but the boost it provides early-game will mean you are far ahead of your opponents by that time.

[@jimmytickles9651]

"Say the line Montu!" "Prosperity is the best tradition in the game" "YAAAAAY!"

[@niteshade5783]

Money. Good.

[@roryatkinson1988]

I think your A tier is bang on. I hadn't thought of those benefits from the defensive tree as being as useful as when you laid it out. Will have to try it out. Thanks Montu for teaching me something new. Not being a competitive player rather doing RP stuff this passed me by.

[@MontuPlays]

I'm very happy to hear that videos like this help people try new things out!

[@doctorritos2114]

Yeah, unyielding is probably the best tradition to defend against competitive mp rush builds. not so great of a pick in solo play though.

[@Karou812]

When I saw the Evade Chance and Tracking in the Subterfuge tree, my first thought was they probably added that in to push it up from handsdown the most useless tradition. However I do think it fits in a thematic sense, you are learning about the enemy, and by studying them and their capabilities you learn how to better evade their shots and also their movement patterns making them easier to hit, in an RP sense it works.

[@Manoomu]

I don't know if this would work but it would be nice if it also gave you a damage boost against empires that's tied to your intel level, so if you have full intel you do like 10% more damage or something. Useless against crisis though.

[@MrMarinus18]

Subterfuge and the spy mechanic in general is the sort of thing that's extremely hard to balance. Since if they actually made it effective and worthwhile it would also be incredibly obnoxious. The best mechanics in a strategy games are not only fun and interesting to inflict but also fun and interesting to suffer through or at least defend against. I think they should expand the spy mechanic further and maybe create something to defend against it. Maybe even being able to turn a envoy into a double agent. On that I think having a seperate spy leader is a must. Not only could they be made to infiltrate a government but maybe also they could be used to infiltrate a planet to maybe disable their shields or give some kind of debuff. Maybe it could work that you can send a spy in and that means you will lose it. You then have several options of different difficulties. With something like that in place suberfuge could also do more like maybe increase the likelyhood of success or maybe add some strong ones like the disabling of shields or maybe if you have an empire highly optimized for stealth you could even disable the ground based FTL inhibitor.

[@Level30Commoner]

Yes, I watched the entire video. Thank you very much for your great work. 🙂 Coming back after a long break from the game I had to discover myself that Expansion has fallen so far. Since then I was very unsure which traditions to pick and your video helped immensely (and reflects a surprising amount of my assessments).

[@MontuPlays]

Welcome back! I hope the video helped

[@Level30Commoner]

@@MontuPlays Absolutely. Your videos are a godsend. I'm only RPing on Commodore. So I don't need cheesy stuff but I really appreciate your tier lists to avoids the traps and duds from the f tier that can ruin a run.

[@gressorialNanites]

I applaud your bravery in placing Expansion into F. That's why I come to this channel, to challenge views I fail to review often enough.

[@isaacdalziel5772]

I don't understand that. It's just... really good. It is terrible late in the game, but early...

[@filipkrizan4857]

The Subterfuge tradition is like EU4s Espionage idea

[@luggy9256]

Useful for really niche builds sometimes? Lol

[@ziggytheassassin5835]

So true lol. For subterfuge youd only use it for the ship bonuses while espionage is only good for reducing aggressive expansion.

[@luggy9256]

@@ziggytheassassin5835 yea espionage is only good for trying to expand a little faster in the HRE.

[@Pedro_Colicigno]

actually used Espionage to form the Roman Empire before the 1700, I think it was 1670-80, as Aragon. Took the first 4 things, sgressively expanded into france, no CB declared in Byz to get claims in ottoland, and used the 3rd thing to give a lot of claims to Naples to expand in italy. That plus Aragon Missions works like a charm

[@ingold1470]

And like Espionage, it's only redeeming quality is semi-hidden military bonus.

[@scorbiot]

The greatest benefit of Unyielding is that it lets you have few ships at the start for longer (and before any defensive war, really), which takes a lot of pressure off your shoulders. Or, at least, it's really good for me. Also, I don't think additional ruler level cap is any good, because bonuses from ruler levels are nearly insignificant anyway. Wow, +5 edict fund per level! It's little early on and basically nothing afterwards. The main benefits of rules are traits and agendas.

[@TheNN]

Expansion, when coupled with Xenophobe (especially Fanatic-level) is a tremendous boon, because you are talking about spreading out as fast as possible. And with Overlord, the idea, the notion, of having multiple vassals is a very real possibility, and a very useful one too. So I don't think it should be dismissed too much Adaptability, I think what it needs is either a reduction in cost to terraform OR a reduction in time to do so. I think that would provide far more of a useful boon than some sad little Resettlement cost. Instead of Planetary Prospecting being random, I think it being more a choice would make it far more potent, with perhaps a higher cost. Domination is good if playing with something like Remnants, as it gives you an immediate reduction in clear-blocker cost, and thus for your Relic world you begin on, gives you far quicker access to not only the districts you have but the extra bonuses that can come from them. Diplomacy is pretty much a necessity if you want to even try to become Custodian, especially if going for Galactic Emperor. Of course you can get it without, and having a powerful Federation that you control can help push things your way. Not impossible without it, but it can be far harder. You pretty much have to play politics to some degree if you want to go that route. Supremacy is pretty much a self-nerf if you do not take it. It's the one tree I'd say anyone should take. Even the most hippie-dippie, Tree of Life-huggin, Fanatic Pacifists should take Supremacy. Even if it's the last one you pick. The use it provides is simply far too much to ignore, and not having it to counter when others get it, means you are gonna be at a major disadvantage.

[@mortache]

Expansion really depends on how many planets you find early. If you are a robot and have 6-8 planets nearby, Expansion gives 6-8 extra pops! That is a major boost at game start.

[@wagz781]

On the topic of discovery, A small tip to remember: You no longer suffer penalties for taking another tree if you haven't finished a different one. So going discovery first, getting the extra survey speed, and then immediately finishing supremacy is a surprisingly effective "search and conquer" opener. Especially with the vassalization options added in overlord. Then you can always grab prosperity/merchantile third depending on preference, and/or finally finish discovery once the early game bonuses start falling away more for the mid game bonuses.

[@feedthemeat543f]

The happiness malus from extended shifts is kinda irrelevant with stratified economy or slavery since their happiness counts towards pop approval far less than your rulers/specialists

[@luggy9256]

Great video, I was actually trying to find exactly this video yesterday. Keep up the good work.

[@MontuPlays]

Glad I could help

[@redeye4516]

I appreciate that you've slowed down the info popup and let the tiers remain on screen for a few more seconds. I take screenshots of your full tierlists like this to refer to while I play, they're very helpful.

[@jampine8268]

Discovery is an insta first pick, so I can scout out system to find planets to claim and choke points before anyone else can nab them. Supremacy is always one to pick for the war doctrines, no idea why you'd ever pass up on them.

[@cyruslupercal9493]

The Dominations -33% blocker clear is good when you have Remnants origin. Lot of (expensive) blocker tiles to clear for quick early tech and artifacts. With the right governor it gets very cheap.

[@sigmachad96]

Appropriation from Adaptability tree actually is -33% resettlement cost, wiki most be wrong on that one. Adaptability works relatively well for Subterranean empires

[@skullruss]

Thanks my guy, I've been using your tier lists to get a feel for the mechanics in the game and judging traditions against one another is HARD. I would LOVE to see a theory-crafting series or even just a single video on stuff that you think would be a good addition to the game, could be an interesting and freeing topic. Either way, thanks for the vids.

[@exgrinder]

Happy to see new tier lists with Overlord

[@MontuPlays]

Hope you enjoyed the video

[@N1ghthavvk]

The finisher effect on Adaptability for Void Dwellers (which you just skipped over) is actually so good, that I'd argue it is A or S tier. Being able to get Research, Energy, or Mineral Districts on every single Habitat... well that's just perfect and will set you up for perfectly. You can go Synthetic Ascension and use planets purely for Industrial districts (using Ecumenopolis if you really want). This allows you to infinitely expand, because you're not limited to deposits in your space.

[@marssguy]

Montu, I genuinely don't think I'd enjoy Stellaris as much as I do without your videos! Seriously, no one else produces as much high quality, informational content for this game as you do, and I thank you for that!

[@TheBrokenIce1]

Montu could you do some shorts or quick guides on how to play certain empires and their differences for beginners? Kinda separate from the meta videos, moreso aimed for people who got the game from the free weekend

[@Sonar90]

This would be great. I've been playing for a while now and have absolutely no idea how to run void dwellers, machines or hive mind empires. Have no clue what choices I should be making at the start or mid game to get ahead with those sort of empires.

[@MontuPlays]

That would be a great idea. I'll have to look into it!

[@rosuav]

For the record, I'm still here at the 38 minute mark :) It's interesting that you completely gloss over the impact of early-game influence on rapid growth. Expansion traditions cuts the cost of building starbases by 10%, but Domination traditions adds half an influence per month, so those two will affect how quickly you can spread out and claim systems.

[@PenitentChaplain]

Thanks for the deep dive. Always good to see a breakdown like this. I would actually push Domination and Harmony up to B for their value to a range of builds because they give decent bonuses on their own and then the -10% pop sprawl modifier is really good for stacking. You can get 75%+ pop sprawl reduction if you stack enough modifiers(flat reduction, which does not count pop traits. it actually makes unruly even more irrelevant to your empire because of the way they multiply), which is absolutely game-changing as far as how much unity you need to finish your later tradition trees. And that's completely ignoring the small but noticeable tech gains and reduced edict cost.

[@MrFunkhouser]

I'm so glad to see unyelding getting some love! As a more defensive player who does not play multiplayer, I find it very awesome.

[@jcwwwheeler]

I always grab Discovery into Boldly-Go first thing so I can use Map the Stars for all that survey speed. Then I go into whatever improves the situation I find myself in

[@RobBCactive]

Extra anomalies are nice too, picking up stored research points and extra early resources is a bonus

[@MasterElements]

If you do those 2 then go into expansion for the influence cost reduction on new starbases, plus being xenophobe you can set your empire up to gobble as much space early as you can so long as you focus on unity to get there quickly. As well as alloys to build the outposts and actual starbases. If I were to do that I would go discovery + survey speed/map the stars, then go into expansion for the influence cost, then go into unyeilding to build starbases more easily to hold that space.

[@RobBCactive]

@@MasterElements the starbase influence cost isn't as significant now as it used to be.

[@Fireballun]

@@RobBCactive Isn't it still significant if you go for far from borders chokepoint tho

[@wasteland-werewolf]

I was with you through the entire video. As a returning player...holy hell everything is different. Gotta say there is a lot I miss but the game is so much better now. This video was very informative.

[@smokinggnu6584]

Same, i also only get Expansion only to the 1 extra pop bit right at the beginning.

[@letsplaysvonaja1714]

discovery and expansion first, I level both at once, starting with the exploration effects and then getting all the fancy reductions for star bases and the increase to colonies and pop growth before going back to finish discovery for the less important tech boni and then I just pick whatever I happen to need or want to go for really wanna go to war? supremacy; wanna make friends and get a federation going? diplomacy; etc.

[@onehuman4853]

I loved the opening clip. So fitting

[@Chronowizpal]

I love this almost 1hour long videos, the production kept good through all the time. I had to watch it on the weekend though

[@MatthewChenault]

My go-to strategy for Traditions: 1. Expansion because early-game influence is too valuable. 2. Discovery for research boost. 3(4).Diplomacy for federations/reducing influence cost. 4(3). Prosperity for that delicious resource bonus. 5. Supremacy for fleet build-up. 6. Harmony for leader lifespan, food, and -10% empire pop reduction. 7. Domination to cap off.

[@talltroll7092]

Personally, I'd swap 1 and 2. I agree that early influence is valuable, but the increased survey speed and anomaly discovery chance (especially with Map the Stars running) lets you know where you need to spend it. Few things are more annoying than being locked out of a tasty expansion route because you didn't know it was there, or you just get beaten to the punch by a rival construction ship because you couldn't survey systems fast enough. I also quite like the leader XP gain increase as early as possible, because increased leader levels just make everything better, and you get to roll for their bonus traits more quickly. Having more anomalies to work on is good too; the outcomes are almost always positive, and a few are amazing

[@papercamera2989]

do you play xbox?

[@MatthewChenault]

@@papercamera2989, no.

[@ez_theta_z9317]

@@talltroll7092 i agree with that one.

[@letsplaysvonaja1714]

how is -10% influence for star bases minor?! when you pick the tradition early game you will have next to influence yet, so the reduction is a real god send, especially when you're like me and just keep expanding early on until you hit either space fauna, dead ends or borders

[@jerryborths6307]

The main change I would make is to put Discovery at the top of S tier. I always take it as the first tradition tree, and I usually follow it up with Technological Ascendancy as the first perk to really get the research snowball going.

[@sketchbook8177]

Every time, I rush expansion to get the reduction to starbase influence cost, and then go to discovery to get the additional survey speed. Then return to finish expansion, then finish discovery. Doing this, I can reliably expand outward strategically to claim chokepoint systems so that when I meet other empires I can close my borders to them and keep them from accessing large chunks of the galaxy, effectively claiming dozens of systems all for myself before I even build a stare base in an of them, and can focus purely on my economy without having to go to war for space and resources until much, much later.

[@braedonkelly6565]

Not trying to make an argument about Expansion overall per se, but specifically for the -25% Empire Size from Systems/Colonies, Montu really blew past that as though it was nothing. But I just loaded up several save games and did the math. In the mid game era, this bonus translates to roughly +10-12% research speed and twice as much tradition unlock speed. Again, I'm not trying to make an argument for Expanion overall (though I do think it belongs higher than F tier), but is this perk for +10% research speed really a complete disregard?

[@csantana1]

expansion is S tier

[@brianrice4102]

You say expansion only has 2 good bits, the right side two, which yes when I first started learning the game is why I used to pick those two and then go full discovery generally but I think the influence reductions has got to be worth something, and especially early game where you want to edge out others for position and control of key systems. Now I've been just going Prosperity first generally, (obv it depends on empire) but I think more and more that getting those 3, or going full expansion and then prosperity might really be worthwhile no doubt you know a infinitely more about Stellaris than I do but a thought Thanks so much for teaching me so much about the game through your videos!

[@bronzejourney5784]

Picking prosperity first for economic boost is not really the wisest choice to be honest, because up until the mid game, your economy is bottled by your population growth, and you will not really see any benefits from those resource output buffs, on account of having not enough population to output anything. Once you properly settled on your "First Set of Colonies" with around 25-50 population on each, only then it starts to become useful. My order usually; Discovery Expansion Diplomacy Prosperity After the 4th, order loses its relevance.

[@dylangrizzle]

Nice tier list, I too agree with the majority of the placements. One other good note about the defensive starbases tradition is that it's great for Necrohives because all the extra starbases provide food and energy. Food for your livestock and energy because of the solar panels, freeing up alot of technician jobs which your Necrohivers aren't good at anyway.

[@Pan_Z]

Really think you're underselling Expansion. If it's your 1st or 2nd pick, it will pay off fantastically by the late game. Starting every colony with 2-pops & 10% faster pop growth is great for your production. The finisher forgoes needing to build an unnecessary city district on mining, generator, and agricultural worlds just to get max building slots. It makes a notable difference across multiple planets. It's certainly not worse than Subterfuge, at the least.

[@MrFunkhouser]

I have traditionally clicked the like button and will maintain this like button tradition

[@deanthelis5578]

Expansion is better for Machine empires than it is for organics, as machine assembly isn't affected by pop growth scaling mechanics like organic pop growth is. Because of how Machine empires' assembly works, it retains much higher value into the late-game, as machine empires have more growth directly from their Fabricator jobs that provides a fixed growth speed over time - it's completely unaffected by habitability, housing, amenities, jobs, etc. Considering that machine empires get an upgrade to their machine assembly plant in the midgame, it's very worth picking up Expansion.

[@MrKingJace]

I don't think I'll be offended.... *Watches video*... Listen here you son of a b****!!!

[@SilverGuard]

watched this and tried starting with discovery instead of expansion and wow, what a difference. That massive bonus to survey speed through "To Boldly Go" and the "Map the Stars" edict allowed me to blitz my surrounding area and b-line my control to favorable choke-points. My bottleneck was my influence amount, causing me to start rivalries with the first two neighbors just for more influence. I probably just got really lucky with my races placement, but by the time the lines between my neighbors was set, I had closed my borders and cut off every other race from a massive chunk of the galaxy for me to claim at my leisure. Edit: I also doubled down on this strategy by starting with the auto-survey technology just for the survey speed. this just gave me so much area to expand into and more habitable planets to grab, I feel like it was worth the slight delay with my colonies growth

[@patrickbarnes8149]

Watched the whole vid, great info as always!

[@GunLut]

Thank you for doing all this videos. They are very helpful. I'd love to see an updated version of this tier list. With all the new politics, statecraft, leader rework etc. I suspect that many things where added an switched around.

[@MontuPlays]

It's on my list to update! Don't worry

[@GunLut]

​@@MontuPlaysthank you looking forward to it

[@MontuPlays]

@@GunLut it should be out in about an hour actually...

[@MontuPlays]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/laKWoI1ug7poiq8&ab_channel=MontuPlays

[@Darkn3ssF4ll]

Keep helping me be a better player Montu!

[@bravalloy]

Espionage would be great if, like Master of Orion (I, best Orion) you could not get some techs because they are not in your tech tree or even in Master of Orion II, because you have to pick one or another. So you would have to trade or steal the missing techs!

[@HairyTuttle]

Expansion as 1st tradition should be a lot higher i think. Faster colony set up means your initial colonies are established 1-2 years faster and start with 2 pop. Making them productive even faster. 10% pop growth costs two trait points if you want it as a species trait and my colonies are always thirsty for more pop. 10% influence savings on starbases is somewhat map dependant. It's always nice and in situations where you have a lot of space to peacefully expand into it is excellent. The same applies to the empire size reduction, it's always nice and gets better as you get bigger. 20% upkeep savings on starbases is pretty meh. The extra district per planet is very nice as it adds to your planetary capacity as well as allowing another district. As a 1st tradition, I would rate it a high B or low A tier.

[@aenarioncourts9516]

Thanks!

[@MontuPlays]

Thanks for your support!

[@cameronpearl2323]

Always watch till the end. Montu gang for life.

[@matthewedwards6025]

Note: planetary prospecting from finishing the adaptability tree doesn't always give you one district. It unlocks a new blocker that can give you 1 to 3 districts. Of course, there's no way to control what you're going to get so it's a crap shoot.

[@jameshildebrand907]

I recall when all traditions were still fixed and research was always the given first pick for me. Now... I actually don't take research tradition anymore.

[@AusFirewing]

Personally I think Discovery is a mandatory first-pick unless you're going for a specific Tradition build. The extra leader experience and levelcap, plus the extra research bonuses can really help you snowball. This is especially true in the early game when your empire size isn't big enough to give you penalties to research costs, so all of these bonuses have a lot bigger of an impact.

[@bigbenhgy]

Planetary prospecting has never ever gave me a rare resource deposit and because of specialized worlds it's 2/3 usually that it gives an absolutely useless one and even then it can be 1 more district from what you want, but the Orbital surveying for Void dwellers is really good, you can have more research and mining habitats that way. So for Void dwellers it's basically an auto pick for me (not the first tradition but it's definitely one of the 7).

[@johnnyb175]

Another benefit to mercantile that wasn't mentioned: if you play it right, you can print alloys. Getting all of your consumer goods from trade value allows you to switch your economic policy to militarized economy with no tradeoff. On top of that, you can give every industry-focused planet the foundry world specialization.

[@TekGriffon]

Adaptability as C tier for void dwellers is mind boggling. Orbital Surveying is essential, arguably the most important finisher for VD, and you didn't even mention it. I've had more than a few games where RNG has given me only 2 research habitats. Orbital Surveying can quintouple that. It also evens out any bad RNG for minerals and energy, especially useful if you get bad luck and can't build a matter decompresser due to no black holes in your space. Expansion as C tier for VD is highly questionable as well. It's always my first pick and is why I'm building a 5th habitat by the time anyone else can afford their 4th, and why I'm sitting on 5 extra pops in the process. A 20% bigger empire at the same time/cost isn't C tier, not in my opinion.

[@doctorritos2114]

agreed. he seemed to heavily discount or even outright neglect the compounding effect an extra few pops have on the early game.

[@TheHamsterJD]

Extended shifts is great! Worker slaves get +20% output for only -10% happiness.

[@Sanvone]

Wasn't it patched in 3.0 so Worker/slaves no longer double dip on bonuses?

[@MontuPlays]

Yeah, that was patched back in (I think) 3.0

[@arandomoctopus2532]

@@Sanvone Taken directly from the wiki: "If a modifier affects the resource output of both workers and slaves, it actually affects slaves in worker jobs twice. "The Extended Shifts edict increases slaves resource output by +10% and workers resource output by +10%, resulting in an total +20% bonus to slaves in worker jobs. "Modifiers that affect workers aside from the resource output ones don't affect slaves."

[@arandomoctopus2532]

@@MontuPlays Taken directly from the wiki: "If a modifier affects the resource output of both workers and slaves, it actually affects slaves in worker jobs twice. "The Extended Shifts edict increases slaves resource output by +10% and workers resource output by +10%, resulting in an total +20% bonus to slaves in worker jobs. "Modifiers that affect workers aside from the resource output ones don't affect slaves."

[@TheHamsterJD]

@@MontuPlays Just tested in game and it still works. In 3.0.1 they made it so indentured servitude no longer gets slave bonuses. Workers still double dip.

[@MatthewChenault]

Prosperity has always been my go-to for a third (of fourth) pick because of the +1 housing for all city districts, which stacks with the housing expansion techs to give you +8 for a normal planet. That +1 on a planet with seven housing districts equates to +7 housing (nearly an entire city district), which can help with pop growth speed. Also, the +1 clerk job is great, since I always have an issue with pop unemployment and the clerk jobs help provide critical amenities without needing to burn exotic gasses to upgrade entertainment buildings and, instead, means the resources can be used to upgrade research buildings. Also, +20% mineral production from mining stations is ridiculously powerful considering, in the early and middle game, most of your mineral production is going to come from mining stations and will constitute the majority of your mineral production until you get at least several mining worlds up and running.

[@jimhall583]

Watched the whole thing, so you know. I love your explanations.

[@ElementZ3ro]

your opinion on trickle up economics is insane. You are right that you don't see the benefit for it right away cause you fill in those merchant jobs first but on a dedicated trade planet you will have plenty of pops working clerk jobs and this +1 is extremely good. Could not believe you said it was pointless.

[@MontuPlays]

If you have pops working clerk jobs, move them to a new world with merchants. There is no excuse for allowing clerks to flourish! Unless you are doing zombie clerks with the permanent employment civic, in which case carry on!

[@sunso1991]

would be cool is Subterfuge give you +2 code breaking instead of 1, or double debris reverse engineering research points or hyperlane sensor +1, or +10 ship tracking come on, give the spy masters some more love!

[@Vherstinae]

I made it all the way through the video. I'll agree with some of the other commenters that you may be undervaluing Expansion simply for the ability to snowball in the early game as well as the reduction in Influence cost for building new outposts, but in comparison to everything else available I think I get where you're coming from.

[@yahelgamer32]

I personally dont decide the traits of my empire and species based on how good they are but rather on how fun i think they will be

[@CrazyVolus]

-Expansion is obscenely powerful as Void Dweller imo. Once you get your eco going, the main throttles on your growth are Influence and Pop Growth. 20% cheaper Habitats is a lot of extra Habitats. But for a non-Void Dweller imo it is underwhelming. -Adaptability is also very useful for Void Dweller, but is also underwhelming for non-Void Dweller. Building slots are golden on Habitats. -Diplomacy's opener can fix a busted Influence economy in a pinch, even without going for a Federation. -No surprise about the S Tier. Though I often stall as long as I can to grab Supremacy as a Pacifist. I also think if there were ethic-specific traditions, or some other way to get to unique tradition trees, it would spice up the system massively.

[@sovietunion7643]

i would argue that prosperity's allowing 2 clerks per city district is better than you say because they also add +2 amenities per job, and if you have 3-4 city districts thats already a nice little amount of bonus pop happiness. obviously bonus pop happiness increases stability which increases production.

[@joshuaghozeil8061]

I would bump up mercantile into A tier if you are mega corp your trade value from your mangers and executives (politicians and unity jobs) fall in love with that 10% boost and lets be frank you're a megacorp your moto is "screw the meta I have money"

[@elischrock5356]

This made me rethink some things. Thanks for that.

[@deanthelis5578]

Insider Trading from the Mercantile tradition is a BIG deal. It doesn't seem like much, but the later the game goes, the more raw volume you're likely to be trading - probably, all the extra consumer good from your trade value, or excess alloys if you're not at war, or whatever - and, thus, the more lost income you're suffering from market tax. That, alongside owning the Galactic Market, is just a 10% tax!

[@ez_theta_z9317]

you can get that right down to 5% with the right leader trait or agenda

[@beastebeat4956]

Domination is incredibly good with the not so good syncretic evolution start. Slaves also benefit from their specific job class they are in along with slave benefits (for instance with indentured servitude slaves would still gain the boost from meritocracy in specialist positions). So with the edict extended shifts from domination you get a boost of 20% from the edict and you also get the added 10% from the workplace motivator tradition on it's own. Add that with the 10% worker output bonus from serviles, 5% from slave proccesing facilities, and (You should be doing this with your serviles) 5% worker output from very strong trait you get a 160% percent efficent working slave class. You could also get a leader with slave optimization for an added 10%, and 10% from an iron fist governor so you can basically get 180% efficent slaves if you keep adding buffs so yeah. Edit: forgot about the buff from chattel slavery slave type so it is actually plus 170% or 190%

[@Vonhoz]

Its probably a little etheral numbercrunching but enforcers provide 2 defensive armies each and thus with police state, unyielding and/or Domination can end up producing up to 3 Unity net and 1 stability each. Only two of these unity-points benefit from job-boni but at this point they are effectively 1 unity short of the actual bureaucrat but without upkeep. Its actually a pretty rounded out package if you run Slaves that usually produces a little more crime than other builds.

[@littlelambchop7985]

I do like how the lower tier traditions are fully explained rather than just listing the downsides, really puts into perspective player values and what is looked for when it comes to such an important decision

[@penguinsrockrgr8yt216]

Strange my first pick for tradition was always discovery for the Buffs for tech and survey speed

[@ez_theta_z9317]

same here

[@bvav9678]

There is one very nice use of the versatility tree as a genocidal robot, once you have all the territory you want but still want to be raiding (always want to be raiding). You can take a planet, move all but one pop to your processing centers to purge, then liquidate all the buildings and districts for minerals. Remaining pop will die and you leave an empty planet behind that no longer belongs to anyone, pure profit. Also ai will probably recolonize it and you can come back a few decades later and harvest again.

[@brightenblack207]

I'm playing as a Crisis Terravore currently and I was kicking myself when I saw that lithoids can gain resources back from demolishing structures if they took adaptability. I had already taken more than half the huge galaxy and, with all the buildings I was having to get rid of, I would've never had any issues with minerals if I took the tree early on. Eating bad planets only gets one so far~

[@SuperThest]

Subterfuge is C only because of 5 evasion and 10 tracking. Those are worth something, especially when some battles can be balanced on a knife's edge, but early Expansion can generate you dozens of pops you otherwise would never have which can be hundreds of resource income per month. This comes down to play style, but if you don't mind having a lot of planets/sectors, expansion is a force multiplier. The finisher is also worth getting because it gives you more room to put your pops and that extra district actually increases growth rate too. Subterfuge on the other hand is never worth finishing except for an ascension perk, and for some reason it's still a tier higher. The economy advantage of Expansion should let you support more powerful fleets anyway. Expansion really shines for Void Borne though because it lets you have more habitats which means more pops, which means more everything. We're talking about more than a 25% increase to your economy over time as long as you're willing to organize your worlds.

[@EVWeb]

I disagree with expansion being in C tier for Void Dwellers, for them I feel it is S tier required simply due the fact that it will allow you a snowball so hard compared to any other tradition. It not only speeds up the pop growth curve, negates the pop growth speed nerf of being void-born, and reduces the impact of having several hundred habitats on empire sprawl, but it also allows me to build more habitat and start building them sooner. It also reduces the cost to upgrade them.

[@DawnTyrantEo]

I find that Subterfuge is a pretty comfy opener for a Tall playstyle vs AI- not necessarily optimal, but very convenient! The total +2 Codebreaking means you can effectively call dibs on any First Contacts, letting you get a nice chunk of Influence to help you compete with neighbouring empires for those first few vital systems. On top of that, getting spy networks set up quickly and easily on AI in the early game is very useful- it lets you quickly identify the traits of other Empires so you can better evaluate your expansion plans, and as long as you've got good alloy production, you can get enough warning of an invasion to focus on expansion and invest materials in the military reactively rather than proactively. It's pretty easy to just build ships and build up your border starbase(s) until an enemy empire backs off!

[@zestypigeon2729]

So 2 of your F tier traditions become must picks on Void Dwellers (which holds a special place in my heart) because the reduced influence cost of habs will mean more worlds and orbital surveying means potentially infinite mining worlds for all your alloy production (since 9 times out of 10 you'll get a mineral deposit) and also makes you less dependent on having planets with mining deposits already on them to build your habs over (since void dwellers tend to be small and you can have bad rng with how many you get)

[@slipknottin]

I always take discovery as my first pick, just to enable the edict. Then I complete the prosperity tree, then go back and finish discovery. 3rd pick is usually either supremacy if I am fighting neighbors, or harmony to keep my leaders alive a bit longer before I ascend.

[@mackenziebeeney3764]

I will still go to bat for Expansion. The influence cost reduction is by no means OP but it lets you expand must faster and more liberally than otherwise. A few games I’ve gotten to the point where I have plenty of influence to expand but the bottleneck is the material to build a starbase. One mining world later alleviated that. Plus the entire right side is also good as you said so it’s C tier for me in larger galaxies. But being able to effectively expand 11% faster than your neighbors will scale up very well, making it a must in larger, modded galaxies.

[@ZacmanTheRed]

I do find Expansion rather critical if you take the Imperial Fiefdom Origin, to counteract the Influence Tax the overlord inflicts on you for expansion. It can also be valuable as a Hegemon/Common Ground, to let you race past your federation mates and lock them out of chokepoints.

[@ez_theta_z9317]

I'd think that domination and harmony would be higher up. Less empire sprawl from pops and more edict fund from both, more stability, lifespan and governing ethics attraction as well as unemployed demote reduction from harmony and more influence, ruler level cap and worker output from domination. Both very handy, especially with 3.3's changes to sprawl.

[@j0nasbs]

Void Dwellers with two trade stations early on + mercantile is pretty silly. You can buy the minerals, you can afford to ressetle to get your habitat buildings up early too. Great stuff.

[@Manoomu]

I definitely agree that Discovery is A instead of S tier, but I can never resist picking it first. Unlocking that edict and activating it right away feels great because otherwise that edict fund just sits there for 30 years until you start unlocking the other ones through tech.

[@OGSaltBreaker]

Would be really nice to see a kind of deep dive into starbases and defense platforms

[@asteropax6469]

Here is the order I tend to go for on this tier list: 1 = Expansion 2 = Discovery 3 = Prosperity 4 = Supremacy 5 = Unyielding 6 and 7 varies between playthroughs due to ascendancy.

[@Delphineas]

Feel like Federations should be unlocked by their unlocks, without needing to go to Diplomacy as a asecond unlock. Although maybe put it in an Ascension Perk?

[@nicklasgriphemandmyself9420]

Tack!

[@nocturnalangel8056]

I like how there is like 6 traditons he said take as you first, second, and maybe third

[@davidburton9690]

I always first pick Discovery just for Map the Stars. Research boosts and upkeep reduction just help me enjoy having it after exploration is finished. I need anomalies, need more chances for the rare ones, and anything I can do to gain more is good for me. Usually Supremacy second or third for a first war against a neighbor. I also like Expansion second for the starbase discount and bonus pops. Sometimes I'll take it as soon as I open Discovery for Map the Stars.