Still talking about red dots

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[@noah.s95]

The funniest thing about the cost factor is someone on a very tight budget could have a Glock with good fiber front/black rear irons and live fire 50 rounds every other month for confirmation, but if they dry fire WELL multiple times per week they will still improve and shoot better than 98% of casual gun owners.

[@dannyd1213]

The Red Dot is just the next evolution in shooting, just like the rifle scope after World War 2. As more shooter's were introduced to optics, the optics became more popular and now you almost never see a rifle without an optical device. Now it's the red dots turn for pistols and revolvers. Great asset for older shooter's if used properly.

[@concealmenttraining9371]

Great content as usual!

[@kevinallies1014]

I think the gun industry itself and the gun community are really part of the problem. Optic cut slides were definitely not the norm until about two years ago. Sure you could find them if you looked hard enough or you could get them milled but the average shooter wasn’t going to look and had no idea where to go to get a slide milled or what footprint they wanted. The gun community contributed to the problem by making people who couldn’t afford top of the line optics feel inferior, like it was better to not have a dot at all than to have a dot that wasn’t an SRO. It is fantastic that someone with your wealth of knowledge and experience is actually having these discussions. Keep being the iconoclast that you are because it is good for everyone associated even the establishment who hate you.

[@robgrey6183]

My initial experience with red dots on handguns: -We bought 2 S&W Performance Center 9L's, milled for red dots. I bought two top of the line Trijicons. -While sighting them in they BOTH failed the same way: dot disappeared intermittently during string of fire. -Trijicon was unhelpful. The red dots went right back to the supplier, who took them no questions asked. I eventually found red dots that worked for those competition guns. But, I'm reluctant to use red dots on a carry gun.

[@robgrey6183]

@@coach-It's called poor quality control. The dot would disappear and stay gone. Then it might come back after a while. Or not. An internet search indicated that these Trijicons were having battery contact problems, and offered solutions, like shimming battery contacts. Shimming contacts on a high dollar red dot? I don't think so. I've since found better choices than Trijicon.

[@ShooterSway]

Production shooter here. I recognize the value of using a dot (efficiency; talent pool). I average 15k rounds annually, so cost isn't a barrier. I stick to irons simply because i still enjoy them. It's also satisfying when i beat dot boys at matches, but that's a side benefit 😂 either way, I'll main irons for the foreseeable future. Definitely looking forward to shooting rds on pistol at one point though.

[@greggarmin9426]

I’ve learned a lot since I discovered your channel and thanks! Yes a dot is cool and a crutch at the same time. I practice with irons and dots. If for some reason the dot fails I know I can use irons and place rounds on target

[@josh885]

I think the future is direct mount optics that come as different versions with the various gun manufacturers footprints like the Holosun SCS. Once optic ready guns became a thing making thr gun match the optic instead of the other way around became a backwards way of doing things. The SCS has made it way more accessible as it saves you the cost of a thrid party plate and/or getting a slide milled and saves the cost of suppressor height sights. Plus it's on the cheaper side optic wise at around $350. For example you can just buy any MOS Gock and throw an SCS MOS on it and be done. You don't even have to worry about a battery to change. Anyone who has a compatible gun and is on fence or struggling with the cost should really look at the SCS as it is a great way to get into a dot in an affordable and simple way. I personally think the SCS MOS is basically the perfect dot if you ccw a Glock. It's small, affordable, easy to mount, never runs out of battery, good quality especially for the price and looks like a factory part that belongs on the gun if you care about that.

[@usuckatshooting]

I made myself a promise to make M in production before making the jump to CO. I kept that promise. I think this idea provided me with enough information to choose to stick with the sport while also providing decent fundamentals before jumping into another division.

[@fyshstix1986]

The reason I run irons is for 2 reasons 1. I use the same handgun for both Multi-gun and USPSA. Getting the slide milled for a RDS would force me out of TacOps and into a division that I feel I would be less competitive in. The option of purchasing a second optic ready handgun and a RDS specifically for USPSA is too cost prohibitive for me at this time. 2. I have terrible astigmatism and adjusting brightness settings does help but it's not a perfect solution. Even when making adjustments throughout the match day to compensate for the changing ambient light, I struggle with shooting consistency when my perceived MOA on the RDS isn't consistent. I know this is probably a mental block that I could overcome with more practice on a RDS but that returns to issue #1. I say this as a relatively new shooter, so these hurdles could change with more experience but I'm no where close to my ceiling in the divisions I compete in now (production/tacops) and might still be years away before I approach that. Thank you for the great content, I've learned a lot watching your videos.

[@danielgodismyjudge]

After having a red/green dot on my first optic ready pistol… only took my wife 4 weeks of looking and shooting my gun and now she just bought herself a Sig and Holosun!!

[@VincentW2]

Very good normal person take 👍👍

[@piouswhale]

Holosuns are on the lower end price wise but they are okay. The original RMRs are still great. Dismounting them once a year to change the battery is actually not a big deal. Another option to consider is the upcoming Mepro MPO (Mepro Pistol Optic) line. They start releasing in a few months and are under $300, and for that you're getting a quality made in USA/Israel optic (except 1 model which eventually will be made in US) that are made for the Israeli Military. If its good enough for them its good enough for me. I have an order waiting for the MPO-F (that is Mepro Pistol Optic Model F). Also, all the Mepro optics are either RMR footprint or RMRsc for slim models.

[@liquid_shadow8690]

For me i shot iron sights for the first few years to get good at the basics. Made Master in IDPA then moved on to Carry Optics.

[@abadonael]

Hi Ben, I've started training in central europe around 2+ years ago and I try very hard to be a better shooter overall. In my club the production is very popular and around 60%+ of all shooters shoot iron sights. I shoot a gun with a mount plate for a red dot, so I could transition later. The main reason: i have read in multiple sources that its better to learn this way, to start iron sights and only then transition to a red dot. I spend so much on ammo, that price is barely important here, just I want to understand how to get better, doesnt matter the division. I place currently 70-80% in high level matches in my country.

[@Shadow__133]

HS ACSS Vulcan for the win! 😂😂😂

[@Vante512]

I just shot a friendly competition with my long term friend who’s active military who doesn’t run dots on pistols. After shooting red dots for literally 1 minute: his mind changed lol. Once you transition to shooting with a dot, it’s EXTREMELY awkward to go back. I originally couldn’t afford it. So I just saved up and got my first dot when I could afford to get one. Started making a little more money and used credit card reward points and cash back rewards to cut the prices down to make it more affordable to have dots on all of my pistols. It’s not necessary to have one but it’s a nice bonus to have one. I’ll also note: my friend shoots insanely well with irons. It’s definitely skill and fundamentals over gear. Gear is nice though.

[@mulder4528]

I was an iron sight guy and still am in some cases, but have hit that age where irons just got waaay too fuzzy and fighting bi-vocals became a thing too. So I sucked it up and learned to shoot with red dots. Took some time but feeling comfortable with it at this point. Do not get old, but if you can’t prevent age a red dot can buy you some more time to stay after it a few more years. Hit around 58 for me by 60 I had little choice.

[@daveshadenuff187]

I am new to red & green dots.I grew up shooting iron sights.I still have to get my green dot zeroed,but it is starting to seem very close.I think though I am not completely sold on the whole optics thing.I like it,but still enjoy shooting iron sights.I feel it is just the popular thing,and makes peoples guns look cool.I really think that is part of the reason a lot are going that way.I really don’t think either are bad,but I would definitely try to learn both ways of shooting.Iron sights before anything in my opinion.

[@MrZola1234]

Lot of guys treat optics like they are cheating. Some folks think there is a cool factor to the iron sight thing... just like old school cowboy guns are cool... and the manual nature makes them fun to shoot.

[@TheAxe4Ever]

The prices of a good optic have come down enough to where cost wasn’t an issue for me anymore. Some hate Holosun simply because of where they’re made. But I think the options they offer and reliability has upped the pistol optics game in my opinion. They brought the cost down to where those that are curious about a red dot can get into one and not break the bank. I never thought I would want an optic because I do just fine with my irons. But I bought a Holosun SCS for my PDP and I love it! Strangely enough, all the practice with the optic has actually helped me be more accurate and proficient with my iron sight pistols. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks.

[@Shaskis.]

I dont think cost is much of a factor anymore, for those that stick with ol reliable like HS, Trijicon, etc, they are still innovating but there are plenty of budget options, foxarmy, gideon, Cylee, swampfox, ive heard good things about vector optics as well, I think more and more people are learning that red dots provide more accuracy and faster target acquisition than iron sights everyday but, at the end of the day its use over form, gun goes bang with or w/o optic.

[@TheStapler9000]

I wanted to win the local IDPA match with irons before I went "all in" on reddot competitions. That happened and now Im considered a "gamer" at the local match. Its all jokes until I bring a revolver and make top 10 😂.

[@PrintWizard89]

I enjoy shooting both iron sights and RDS. My carry gun typically has irons mainly because I’m terrible about remembering to adjust the dot brightness and half the time my dot is adjusted too low anyway.

[@bobb8423]

AGE drives red dot also.

[@steven1365]

Astigmatism kills them for me Just a big blur, can’t even use eotechs on rifles cause of this

[@anthonyferguson8857]

As a newbie to dots I’m learning they don’t always stay mounted like a rifle scope does even when installed by the gun shop. I’m learning how to do it myself but I don’t see this discussed much.

[@joie0]

After 10 months of shooting Prod, I found it quite difficult to see how I stack up at my local matches. Even with prod 15, there’s maybe 3 shooters at any match that take is seriously and they are often shooting prod because their main gun is broken or something. In my area, there’s 4 clubs that all host huge (70-90 shooters) matches. All those shooters and 40-60% is carry optics. I think it’s partly because the classification system is falling apart. Direct comparisons on match day with local M’s and GM’s is slowly becoming the only way to compare skill and personal growth. It’s sad honestly because I enjoy iron sights more as well.

[@ecalzo]

i just swapped my glock 19 because it was not mos for a canik with optic ready cut.. if i want to shoot with iron sights i can... if i want to shoot with a red dot i can.. but it happens that i instantly mounted a red dot on it ..

[@user-ms3lw3gi4f]

👍

[@sgtsawhill1]

I must be a FUDD. Started training with a red dot last year, but shooting with irons for 20 years is still more fun for me testing my skills....

[@andrewschulte3024]

Slide milling is better than MOS imo

[@um4668]

MOS gives the flexibility in the future

[@andrewschulte3024]

@@um4668 that’s true but adapter plates exist

[@Slackwise]

My astigmatism is 95% corrected, but I still have halation around my dot causing a sort of large halo of blurring or dimming AROUND everything near the dot. This obscures quite a lot, actually. I'm going to get a new script next month, but if this persists, I'm just going back to irons, I think, unless I find one that doesn't cause this.

[@kevinallies1014]

If you aren’t looking for a poseur sight and just want something that works look at the Cyelee Wolf 2G. It is specifically a sight for astigmatism. It is a green Circle with 3 moa dot but it doesn’t starburst at all.

[@Slackwise]

@@kevinallies1014 Thanks, I'll check that one out. I have a 507K on my Staccato, but the issue using the dot isn't bursting so much as this halo of darkness around the dot. It's a bit hard to describe, but it's like a sort of black hole where the light is dim and blurry all around the dot. My other theory is maybe this will go down with a larger MOA dot, so that's another thing to try.

[@subysrfast]

@@SlackwiseI have a bad astigmatism as well. I played around with a lot of different options and the larger dot works better for me. I use a CMORE RTS2 in 10 MOA on my limited optics gun and it works for me at least.

[@Slackwise]

@@subysrfast Sounds like I need to explore more to see what optics work differently. Not enough were in the stores I visited that I could handle and look through.

[@subysrfast]

@@Slackwise for good or bad I just asked a bunch of people at a local USPSA match about their gear and in my experience everyone seems more than willing to talk about/show their stuff. I probably looked through 10-15 dots of varying brands and sizes of reticles by the end of the day. It was a lot of help for me.

[@Nick--_]

I haven't put a red dot on my gun because I think the difficulty of irons is kinda cool. I shoot production, often by myself, with a G34. However, I'm not the best shooter and so I'm wondering if I'm doing a disservice to myself by not using a red dot because I've heard how beneficial they can be to learning and training. So, if I can afford to just buy one, should I?

[@johnmh9264]

Gotta disagree a bit. I work part time at a gun store for fun (helps with ammo costs too!) Casuals, old people, people with NRA hats, women, etc. are buying up red dots. Can't sell a non-mos glock or non optic cut gun at all. The price holds them back sometimes but we've noticed they always come back to eventually put a dot on. Holosun whether you like them or not is killing the optic market right now.

[@rolotomase1440]

So you don't need a red dot to be good but if you shoot USPSA you need a red dot because Production and Limited is dead and if you don't shoot CO or LO you have nobody to compete with. Still curious how much better and at what distances, what targets a red dot shooter is going to be better (if at all?) than an iron sighted shooter. I have red dots on my GSSF Unlimited and MOS Guns because that's what's needed for those divisions. Thanks.

[@ravener96]

it's only a money thing if you can only afford a gun. someone with two pistols could have had a pistol with a dot and a bonus case of ammo. i live in europe, we dont mind spending some money, and we dont value as much having a huge amount of "cheap" guns.

[@dylanholbrook6239]

If you carry everyday, you need a few sizes of gun. Most people like a full size (Glock 34/17) and a tiny pocket rocket (43), a compact (19), and something in between (43x). Then if you want optics for all of those you have to buy at least 3. When you carry 3 different guns you spend more on ammo to stay proficient. Just a different perspective

[@alexglenn2122]

You can regularly grab a Holosun 407 for sub 200…Price is a scapegoat

[@n0tthemessiah]

$200 is my budget for ammo for 3 months. Price is not a scapegoat, it's an actual obstacle to training.

[@John.VanSwearingen]

I did a shopping circuit through several local gun shops yesterday-which unfortunately included a Bass Pro Shops. I heard many classic nuggets still being regurgitated at that counter: get a .45 over a 9mm because of knockdown power, don’t get an optic because defensive shooting will be point shooting, get an M&P over a Glock because the gun needs a safety, if you have a safety then you don’t need to buy a holster, don’t carry JHPs because they’ll jam the gun… Cost is pretty irrelevant to the unwashed masses. Most of the shooting public is just dumb and can’t be considered at all. So, most chatter about optics is about as valuable as most chatter about calibers. The serious shooters and agencies for whom cost is a barrier now… it’s understandable, but that’s basically a question of time. At some point, they will go RDO. It’s inevitable. That is a minority that will shrink every year. “Good” red dots are super affordable now. There’s a weird niche of people that insist on irons as an affectation or a way to ensure division wins, but optics are now the default for modern carry, duty, and competition.

[@danhanus2294]

Cost aside from the dot, I hear a lot of hang-up on guys sending slides off for machining. Fear of something going wrong I guess? I've sent 4 or 5 off for milling without issue.

[@austinmurphy6359]

No just too much money.

[@elijahanderson6736]

The biggest issue besides the "picking up the dot" issue and price for newer shooters is this. Most people don't understand the nuances of a dot and dont put in the effort to understand them. Brightness level management, battery replacing, cleaning, etc. This goes for cops. The people pushing for dots on everyone is disingenuous. The beaty of irons is they are simple and require little to no maintaince. I love my SRO and Holosuns. But on my 43x Irons all day for my gym gun.

[@um4668]

Its honestly not that complicated. Set the brightness level where you like before going in service, change the battery every 6 months to 1 year and you're problems are solved.

[@WyattDerpTheNotSoEarp]

Of all the dots I've owned the only maintenance I've done is change the battery and clean the lens only because I hate having small specs on any glass I look through. Can't get much more low maintenance than that.

[@seanoneil277]

Good one, Ben. When I read comments talking about costs, I always see rationalizing for poor budgeting. Can't spend $150 to get slide milled? Dovetail mount plates are about $35. That $150 spent on something other than slide milling, was it junk food, expensive reastaurant meals, etc that got in the wallet instead? And no to them being "a necessity." But also no to the lazy excuses for spending priorities.

[@n0tthemessiah]

This is some classist bullshit.

[@seanoneil277]

@@n0tthemessiah Maybe, if your dictionary has "custom" definitions of boolshyte and various -isms.

[@n0tthemessiah]

@@seanoneil277 When you have a coherent argument beyond complaining about simple two-syllable words, let me know.

[@seanoneil277]

@@n0tthemessiah You have a funhouse mirror, I see.

[@davetripper]

“You need a red dot” “You don’t need a red dot” Both camps are wrong. Red dots on all my rifles. And going to be on most of my handguns. For me it’s a matter of want and need. The latter becomes more evident the older I get and farther away from my face my 20/20 vision goes.