STOP Doing This When Dialing In METAL Guitar Tones! | Power Amp Saturation Comparison

[@cajun3197]

This was a great point. Cranked power amp tones are what I would consider more vintage rock tone. Modern metal tones involve a clean power amp. Like some of the diesels and people modding bogners and such for kt88. As if you’re going to saturate a 200w tube power section. That old harmonic distortion vs transient distortion, power amp compression vs preamp gain and so on and so forth. 🤘🏽

[@deadtolove]

So is this why modern metal all sounds exactly the same?

[@cajun3197]

@@deadtolove it doesn’t. Plenty of modern metal I don’t like

[@cajun3197]

@REVOLUTION TV I’ve heard people using pa power amps with line 6 helix and such into a cab to play live with great sounds and no tube maintenance as well.

[@deadtolove]

@@cajun3197 The guitars all seem to sound the same. I'm not talking about esoteric differences in playing styles or what have you, I'm talking about tone. Damn near every metal album has the same guitar tone as the next. Everyone is using the same four or five amps with the same four or five OD pedals in front of them.

[@cajun3197]

@@deadtolove 🤷🏽‍♂️ don’t listen to it

[@Boogieplex]

Im one of those older guys(50 yrs) and I agree 💯 % with your experience. Hopefully you helped educate others. That said, there is a sweet spot on amps where the speakers interact with the power/pre tubes, but that spot is usually before the speakers breakup or the power tubes saturate. When you hit the right spot, you know it.Everything just works in unison to create crunch,thump,clarity and sustain.

[@ABHORRANCE831]

Exactly. Too cranked, it's a mess. Not cranked enough and it sounds anemic. The sweet spot is being just loud enough to get controlled feedback when playing in the room with the amp.

[@Boogieplex]

@@ABHORRANCE831 I would concur with the controlled feedback comment. You want a sustained note to bloom into musical feedback. That usually does not happen if you don’t have proper volume. But i also agree with the anemic comment,with volume comes a great many musical nuances. It all just comes down to experience and knowing your equipment.

[@salahbaker4089]

Kyle, who gets overly animated about replies. Seems to not understand the history what we did amps to the way we did.

[@Slidezy]

Yup, its like 10-12 o'clock on most amps. Some engage well at 9 but I've found most sound best around there. Below that some amps are thin, above that you damage your tubes.

[@BigTyronie]

@@Boogieplex when i hit a chord and it blooms and then it winds up sounding like im strangling a high spirited woman at the end via notes starting to feedback, thats guitar tone nirvana.

[@claytongouin5605]

I am always amazing at how little guitarists know about crafting tones. Anything from SET EVERYTHING TO 11 to NO MIDS to ALL THE GAIN. Your videos are a really great way to help high gain players understand how to actually dial in a tone. I think a lot of guitarists don't understand how to make a tone that fits the band mix because most guitarists play at home. At home, a big sound comes from loads of gain, loads of bass, lots of volume, but those are all terrible things to help you cut in the mix. It's a tale as old as time. Guitarists have their 'tone' but their tone is really garbage for a band application and they are unwilling to sacrifice 'their tone' for the benefit of how the band sounds as a whole. Anyways Kyle, great video. I appreciate that you're willing to share all this cool gear with us. If I can post one negative thing (and meant in a positive way), you should invest in some acoustic treatment for your video space. Some broadband absorption panels just to help with room reverb/echo when you are talking. I think it would really push your spoken audio quality up even further. Other than that, no complaints on my end. Really cool video.

[@ClaimedEagle]

I have two tones. One that I use mostly for playing alone with no backing tracks and another one that barely has bass and controlled mids that I use for recording and live applications, it isn't pleasant alone but once in the mix it sounds amazing

[@Ottophil]

Before the internet we didnt know. We just guessed

[@youcantdothisjack]

I think people often think the power section rating, with a peavey 5150, 120w, is for the extra power amp distortion, but they are designed to get all the distortion in the preamp stage and boost AS CLEAN as possible. And a lot of those amps came from taking this as a base, cleaning up the power section and add more stages to the preamp for distortion. Your video, I feel, demonstrates that nicely. Cheers!

[@girthydoinks]

p

[@cajun3197]

This is a prime example as well my friend. Some modern metal amps are el34 120w for the clean headroom when in fact it’s not possible to get 120w from 4 el34s they only 25w tubes...cheers!

[@JohnWiku]

@@cajun3197 it is possible to pull over 150W from a quartet of EL34s. The clean headroom is lower than 25W per tube, but power tubes have the property that it is still possible to get more power out of them, albeit introducing more and more harmonic distortion (up to a certain point). That can be good, or bad, depending on the application (HiFi vs guitar amp used for distortion). That is the reason why it feels that there is a difference in volume for the same power rating for tube vs solid state. Clean power might be the same, but exactly when the solid state circuit runs out of headroom and farts out, the tube starts compressing and still outputs more power!

[@BigTyronie]

Correct most old marshalls, plexi era for sure, will put out right around 140w at full song!

[@jasoncarlson7867]

Great demonstration and really gets the point across.

[@sonictemple2925]

The reason they pushed the amp so hard back in the day is because they didn’t have a ton of options for distortion or what we consider modern gain. Yeah they had fuzz and Rat but nobody was really using them like we do now. I think a lot of modern players are so used to 3 or even more channels that they don’t think about how to use single channel amps. My main amp is a single channel master volume amp. I run mine to the point of slightly dirty clean and do everything else with pedals. When we play with hardcore bands they are surprised my amp is just a loud clean amp. I can make my amp sound like anything I want it to sound like.

[@AndyK.23]

I can't believe how epic a stock JMP 2203 can sound with JUST those two pedals (and the master below 12:00)! Well done Kyle!

[@ordohereticus3427]

The classic stock Marshalls have excellent voicing and simply need a fairly inexpensive boost and EQ solution to pull off a crushing metal tone.

[@TheCyberMantis]

What you said is true. You don't need to crank the power section. Every Marshall amp needs 2 things: A Boss SD-1, and an EQ pedal. With those two things, you can play metal with your Marshall.

[@almostliterally593]

Swap SD-1 wiþ MXR Diſtortion+ Randy Rhoads ſtyle tone.

[@WildChildMcCloud]

Boss SD-1 and MXR 10 band eq

[@TheCyberMantis]

@@WildChildMcCloud Perfect. If the amp is noisy, add a Fortin mini ZuuL.

[@seanfolk7133]

I always take this approach with my band: get my tone to sound amazing to me, then thin it out just a bit. Bass heavy tones sound amazing when you're playing by yourself, but you will immediately get lost in a band scenario. Rehearsal, show, studio, thin your tone out once you're happy with it and you can A) have it louder in the mix, because with fewer low frequencies your overall level will be lower B) have a tighter tone, which is exactly what you want for fast and powerful music and C) you don't get lost in the mix. We have to remember there is a bass guitar, a guitar, maybe two, a drummer and a singer in a typical heavy metal band. You have to fit in that spectrum, you are not the whole band. We as guitar players don't need to play the frequency part of both guitar and bass, let them have the low end, and your band will sound way, way bigger.

[@craigbromiley7837]

Thank you for mentioning the pickup. It doesn't matter how you get to your tone. It's just fun to get there. One day something works and then the next day your ears change or the humidity changes and things don't sound the same. Always searching for tone.

[@belligerentamateur]

Agreed!

[@Jeremynew98]

Like you said, all the guitarists we love that played modern(ish) metal past the mid 80's used an sd1 or had their amp modded...or both. High output pickups and/or or the 10 band. They are amazing sounding amps for classic tones with nothing up front ..but even the classic hard rock players use an sd1 or tube screamer. Its a fact.

[@DreidMusicalX]

A little trick if you have no attenuator. Get a cheap pre amp pedal like a MOOER series preamp pedal that I use. You can use the preamp pedals volume to bring down your amps volume to bedroom levels while still cranking your amphead. Its also can help color your tone depending on the model you get which is pretty cool. I have the Mooer 012 Gold. You can pick these pedals up new for about $85 - $100US. Put the pedal in your effect loop in the beginning of the chain as much as possible if you can but after your EQ pedal or a Mooer Cab Pedal if you use one like I do. You can achieve some serious killer sound using all 3 of these pedals. Myself I use in order, BOSS GE7, Mooer Radar Cab Pedal, Mooer012, then my delays, reverb, Boost pedals etc... Right through my Marshall DSL100 and it kicks ass! But I also kick the front of the amp driving it harder with an OD pedal, or tighten more with a compressor pedal in front of map chain. If you have not tried this, do it. You will thank me for saving your ears and you will be able to take a 100watt / 50 watt amp on stage easily and sound great with a few tweaks for live with your EQ. I was also able to downsize nicely from my 4X12 to a 2X12 Marshall Cabinet with a V30 and a Creamback H. But I am more of an 80's player than Metal player of todays music. But it will still work.

[@12_AX_7]

The first tube amp I ever owned (and still use) is a vertical input JCM800 2203 from '82 that my dad found in a factory he worked at. It's early enough in the JCM800 era that is still has the same circuit as the late 70's 2203 JMP's. I've never needed to take the master volume anywhere near saturation levels for a decent sound.

[@rickycompton2610]

Definitely one of your best videos Kyle. For me I just front end my 2203 with an SD1 or a Ts9 cranking up the preamp isn’t the tone for me either. This was a great explanation of how to get that modern metal tone out of a Marshall.

[@belligerentamateur]

Thanks Ricky!

[@slayabouts]

@@belligerentamateur hey man someone replied to a comment of mine saying i’ve won some contest and to contact them. Looks like they made their account soakedintormentx. Same thing happened to Glenn Fricker, might need to let your subscribers know there’s people trying to scam them

[@riffsnoleads]

I played a small dive bar a couple months ago that only had a vocal pa and I brought a 100 watt Plexi with a full stack. played it on 8 for our whole set. it was stupid loud. no one yelled at me. I love dives.

[@truescotsman4103]

I've had a '77 50w 2204 Marshall since 1991. When I discovered guitar playing I didn't understand tone or any of it. I had my head modified with a tube-buffered fx loop but the rest of the amp has been kept completely stock. I discovered the tube screamer a few years later and it was on. I soon discovered that I had the best guitar tone I had ever heard. I bought rack effects for the loop and more pedals and the rig became a monster. I still have that head and it still sounds better than any amp I own and I have a few Friedmans. It's interesting to watch this amp surface as a "holy grail" amp of sorts. Metallica uses an old JMP 2204 for much of their recording you can see it in videos of their studio. These master volume Marshalls are the sweetest sounding amps ever made. The master volume vibe is a bit more gainy and compressed than the plexi while the plexi is much louder, clean, and more open sounding. For Marshall your "sweet spot" is about 6 for gain and volume. That's where the frequencies come through and the poweramp saturates properly and you get that harsh Marshall bite in the top end.

[@CharlesWillisBonsai]

I think one thing people miss is that it's not just the output tubes distorting, but the phase inverter that's between the EQ and power tubes. Once amps moved the master volumes to post phase inverter it lead to amps that sounded good at bedroom levels.

[@KPGuitarStudios]

Well said. Pick your gear, then learn how to use it, as long as it works it's right 🤘

[@Eliphas_Elric]

Also, that last tone with the pedals on and the power section pushed into distortion was frankly the best tone in the video.

[@rickcrotts6673]

Even EVH aka the power tube destroyer ended up with a signature amp line that relied on preamp gain rather than running the piss out of the power section

[@mountainpeakcloud8442]

Yup, this is the conclusion a came to not so long ago. I have a 100W Orange Rockerverb, and a Friedman JJ Jr. 20W, and there are always those people telling me I needed to get an attenuator so I could push the power tubes into distortion, so I picked up an attenuator and did just that. I ended up playing it like that for a long time, forgetting what the amps sounded like before, and just recently I decided to remove the attenuator, and which made me significantly lower the volume and remove the power tube distortion, and it was like taking a blanket off of the amp. I got more high mids, more clarity, clearer saturation etc. the amps just sounded better in every way. I've come to realize, as you've noted, that these modern high gain amps really depend upon their pre-amps for the distortion. For a while I couldn't get my head around this, cause in my mind I felt like I was only making use of half the amp if the power tubes weren't cooking too, but this was really more a problem with my perspective, because in reality, the power tubes are still shaping the overall tone of the amp, they're just not distorting... and when I realized this, it really freed me up to keep the volume lower and rely upon pre-amp tube distortion. I think a lot more people either buy into the whole power amp distortion thing for the reasons you mention, and/or because they also feel like they're not getting the most out of their amp, like they're only using half of it, because they're not driving the power section into distortion... but that's just not the case depending on the kind of music you play.

[@RobertMastrolembo]

Know you learned this go buy a Kirk wah and really master that tone.😅

[@DontWorryImAPilot]

Just worked with this sort of concept the other day! It's something I've experienced a hundred times but it's always good to be reminded! An artist I'm mixing/mastering for wanted something reamped. My Single Rec into a Mesa 2x12 was the right tone so I went that way. Cranking the volumes made it mushy. Interestingly, the different volumes - channel and master - made them mushy in two different flavors. I was able to push one (the channel volume, if I remember correctly) to give a thin-ish DI a little more weight in the low mids while backing off the other volume to retain the clarity. ...I ended up reamping a lead guitar line, too. I used my Egnater Rebel for that. For whatever reason, that little amp LOVES to be cranked if you're playing higher notes. The power tubes/transformer help the notes bloom, compress, and sustain without having to drown the notes in gain. Good video! Hopefully this helps guitarists understand why I'm turning their master volume down a bit in the studio and help them understand my requests for that sort of thing live!

[@ghostinthetreeline]

15:28 in gets great sounding. The drop C tuning takes good advantage of the gain/tone you had dialed in. And you know I love them Hatebreed style riffs. As always, excellent content and production. Thanks Kyle.

[@belligerentamateur]

Thank YOU!

[@allengoeddey2719]

Nice video, thanks. I appreciate what you said in the last few minutes as well. We are all chasing our tone. Everyone’s tone is different (thankfully) and absolutely subjective. I am “older”, and even though the tones you were going for aren’t to my personal taste, I enjoyed this video. Seeing you set up the amp, and how you adjusted it to get your tone, gave me some ideas. I am a lifelong Marshall owner, so I’m anxious to try some different stuff. Thanks again!

[@MichaelDespairs]

Which Marshall do you have and how high do you ideally set the master volume?

[@belligerentamateur]

Glad to hear it, Allen!

[@eyeshredbmx]

Great video and great tone! These amps are fun and versatile. Personally, I enjoy how well these amps take boost and overdrive pedals. It’s fun to try different things.

[@travispierce76]

I agree with everything you said in this video. Ever since I dove into learning ins and out deeper into playing guitars. I have personally found that I get a better modern tone with greater depth and thickness in my tone with a lower master volume. Love your videos by the way. Keep it up.

[@cmd_f5]

Well stated man. I think the main thing is to just use your ears and go from there. Great vid as always Kyle 🔥🤘

[@LookingForEntertainment112]

Stoked to see an EQ pedal make an appearance. Great thrash tones at the end of the video!

[@belligerentamateur]

thank you my man

[@judgeshred66]

See I really liked the sound you got at the end with master cranked and the pedals engaged. That’s pretty much what I do though the master isn’t quite as high. I have mine “on the edge” so when I dig in it hits the power tubes but not for the majority. I agree that the blanket statement of “it’s gotta be cranked” is wrong. It definitely depends on the style and indeed the amp. EG I have a couple of Marshall’s, the silver jubilee doesn’t need cranking in my opinion - sounds great as it is. The DSL on the other hand needs hurting. You can tell Marshall EQd it with power amp in mind as it’s way too thin. Great vid! Will check out your other Marshall vids now.

[@wctownsend]

Kyle is the man. Great video and I couldn't agree more. I had a TS9 for years and was never happy with it, but back then I never knew to use it as a boost like this. I know now, but wish I had then. Now my 808 is messed up and I need to get it fixed.

[@eranfalek]

I set my jcm800 very similar. But I add the extra gain using the gain knob on the overdrive. I prefer the EQ in the loop. Each player learns to get his tone slightly different. It's a good thing.

[@jordinc7074]

This is where it's at. Really nice demo. Best advice someone gave me is to stop looking at where the dials are POINTING, and use your EAR. Look away, turn to taste.

[@s.w.matteo6679]

Kyle wins. I do like a little balancing act between the the pre and post for a little hair. I go for a slightly flubby sound and then force it tighter with my playing. A sludgier thrash tone.

[@shawn1749]

Two things: EVH also used an EQ pedal out front & using a hot pickup in a vintage amp just sounds like a cranked vintage amp: not metal

[@EnvyGraves]

i used to love the really muddy, really grindy tone. but now that i've matured more on tones, i love the more crisp, clear and punchy tones without over-saturating the amp too much.

[@belligerentamateur]

Same!

[@EnvyGraves]

@@belligerentamateur funny how time changes your overall taste and preference. i love a lot of genres and artists across the entire spectrum, but hearing these sounds and tones just refresh me a lot.

[@lushkordz6643]

im not playing extreme high gain stuffs but i use the same trick to get good Jazz Fusion tones (both 4 Clean & OD/Lead) !!! by stacking 2 tube preamps (Brunetti Overtone2 + Bogner Alchemist tube head preamp) with specific tubes' choice in those 2 & a 7 bands EQ in between to refine the tone (as you're doing here in the vid) ++ a Chorus on the Detune side to add some complexity to the tone & a Noise Gate (@ min setting) that add some granularity as well ....i have also an Ibanez Tube Screamer Pro with a dual circuit (OD + Clean Boost) to get even more specific tones combining the circuits in certain ways .....it works superb 🚀

[@CameronForrester]

I remember getting an attenuator to get more out of my JCM 2000, and I could not notice any difference.

[@garyshelly6555]

That's exactly how I run my rig, crate blue voodoo or blue doo doo however you want to call it, metal zone out front used as an overdrive not as distortion, MXR 10 band KFK good old boss noise suppressor I'm good. And yeah I'm an old dude real to be exact lol but in my opinion I get some of the best metal tones you'll ever hear even with the blue voodoo.

[@jessebreakspear6656]

Awesome video! Audio amplification is a pretty technical subject and I 100% agree that you can't make blanket black-and-white statements like "you have to crank it full blast to get the best sound with every amp" I'm not an amp tech but I would say output transformer distortion is a real thing. phase inverter distortion is a final (or near final) stage of un hi pass-filtered distortion and adds a little more flub and compression in the low frequencies and overall clipping. I am not 100% sure how much power tube distortion factors in, but I think it is like a 4x6l6 amp that gives you 120watts is more power tube distorted than a 4 6l6 that only gives you say 90 watts but then negative feedback factors in and probably other stuff so yeah power tube distortion is a complicated thing. but I can say with confidence that speaker distortion is a myth unless you have a post-magnet assembly like an old alnico. but then the dynamic interaction between the speaker and your ears or a mic might cause some kind of distortion? and then there's cabinet rattle so it's no wonder people think speaker distortion is real, but with a ceramic disk magnet assembly the speaker would burn up, blow or the voice coil core might slam against the back of the magnet assembly before it would ever clip or compress the sound. so if you are getting speaker distortion from your vintage 30 you better turn it down because you are damaging it LOL.

[@brozio77]

i agree with some people that if you turn up the master volume you have to kepp bass pot max on 2. however this video demonstrates that for high gain metal tone it's not necessary saturate power tubes to have a very good sound :)

[@MrWillco007]

Hey Kyle, well done young man! As a youngster trying to 'make it' in Australia, playing in an original 80's hair metal band, I cranked my master volume to 10 on my JCM800, with an MXR Distortion+ as the boost. However, having 'matured' into a modern metal player, I agree with your outcomes related to the tone and the sound you achieved was excellent. Also, there are indeed great IR's, cheers 😎

[@reneemonroe4536]

I’ve tried attenuated cranked master techniques.Anything past 6 on my 1987x gags the amp plus for me I get a better tone without the attenuator and using SD1 and BE overdrive into the low input for plexi and same using clean channel on my DSL100.Neunabar Iconoclast is my secret weapon for recording and playing live.

[@krvnavatra2215]

I have one of these, too. And I use mine with master volume down even further than you do. I’m sitting mostly at about 9 o’clock. However - and you might laugh, I’ve found using a line 6 HX stomp as my boost works better than anything else I’ve used to boost out front. I’m using the gate, the ‘king of tone’ model OD and much like you did, an eq at the end to remove more bottom end. It’s seriously one of my favourite amps when boosted this way. Strange, but true!

[@belligerentamateur]

if it sounds good, that's all that matters my dude!

[@Ratso_DeLynch]

@@belligerentamateur Kyle Bull Hey man! unrelated question and NOT trying to hijack this thread; but I just sent a burning question to your direct fb msg about speakers in a 2x12 cab. I don't like my current g12 65 and g12m 20 watt for rock / hard rock. ^^ I sent you a direct msg on fb message request inbox when you get a chance ?? ^^ I was wondering about combining 1 warehouse reaper 30 with 1 celestion g12H30 together because of your awesome video demoing both. I REALLY want to know if you stuck 1 of each speaker inside 1 2x12 and got amazing results for hard rock - OR if it was shite?? ^ You would save me money and time if it was the latter 😂🤟🏻. I hope you see this message and my fb msg to you. IF you wish to reply over email mine is [e-mail] Please help! Any feedback is appreciated man. ^ thanks and keep it up the amp, cabs , pedals etc content coming on your channel. Love to see / hear it. Cheers from Niagara falls Canada enjoy the weekend brother 🤟🏻🤟🏻🙏🏻

[@lespaul667]

I’m a 2204/2203 fanatic, these amps don’t need to be pushed that high to sing, especially high gain with a boost pedal in front. I usually find that both volumes have a huge swing in output from 7 to 10 on the dial that is like Armageddon on steroids. The highest I’ve had them is both preamp and master on 7-8 with EL34’s, and lower on the master with 6550’s. I would dare to say that most 2204’s have more apparent upper midrange gain and tighter low end than most 2203’s. Might be the Drake transformers. This video shows exactly how I use my rig as well. Mid gain amp, boost and roll down for clean. One channel. One love.

[@KidNato]

A cranked power section also leads to speaker compression / distortion, which is also a NO NO for modern high gain.

[@belligerentamateur]

exactly

[@moparbryan]

I totally agree with your point. I think part of this argument came from a couple things like obviously the Plexi which doesn’t have a MV and the jcm which you do need to get the volume up to overcome the harsh brittle bright cap. That said nothing sounds better than an amp really moving some air and imho there is something pleasing that happens with Marshall’s when the transformer and speakers are working together but it’s not a thrash metal tight sound, definitely 70’s 80’s hard rock sound.

[@antonstefanov2146]

I agree. There's a really good video of Pat Quilter showing the sine waves of the clipping preamp stages and the clipping of the output section /JCM800/. You don't really need to push the master very hard but for a fuller tone you definitely need a bit of the power section saturation too. Not very much but just enough to interact with the preamp stages.

[@FEAROWNAGE]

With some amps it sounds great and adds a unique layer of saturation.

[@robertkornblum4127]

I would love to see the same process done on an old recto

[@johnjohnstone8506]

yes. 100% a 5150 has something like 5 gain stages. on my mesa the pre amp is rarely past 6, driving bass into saturated power tubes just makes it muddy. great video. non master plexi baseman's are completely different

[@jspacone]

I’m an 80s guy, and I was expecting to like the tones of the amp when fully cranked. Maybe it was the EQ settings, but none of those first few tones lit my fire. True, I was just listening on my iPad speakers, but those tones sounded thin and ice picky. The first tone with the OD engaged was really nice, and the 2nd tone with the EQ engaged was crushing, IMO. I fully admit my technique might be lacking, but I find I play much cleaner with slightly less gain than what I really want.

[@robertolsen9721]

I didn't like the power amp distortion and it wouldn't get me the Dokken BFTA tone that is my 80's preference tone.

[@firststep7750]

Vintage Marshalls are the only amps that let you SEE what you're playing too when the Master is cranked; just watch the power-switch light flicker in time to every riff.

[@danielsaturnino5715]

Check out the power botton light when you have the amp crancked :) its in pain. Some people call it sag. I dont think it likes it.

[@deantaylor9352]

I totally agree with you. I think the amp sounded like complete garbage when you cranked it. Then you made it sound really good.

[@belligerentamateur]

thanks man!

[@freddyleal1756]

Cool vid Kyle!! One day sale all those amps and somehow get a Larry Dino head so we can see you demo and here it!!

[@mykneeshurt8393]

A decibel meter would be cool to see. What volume do you usually play at?

[@skyleranderson1984]

5:05 I have seen small local shows where the guy who showed up with a mesa boogie dual rec 4x12 and cranked it loud loud. so some places

[@JakeTerch]

Lots of truths in this video! I run my 2203 master at 4 and preamp at 7, and then boost if the extra saturation is needed.

[@djabthrash]

Not the first video on that subject but one of the good ones !

[@fullmetalsal]

Loved it. This video should have included a 5150 style amp as well to find the sweet spot between power and pre amp tube saturation in those designs. Maybe a part deux video is in the works? 😊

[@FreightCarPatterns]

That riff at roughly 16 mins in had me searching my tracks. Aha...found it: All Out War "soaked in torment". Good stuff! Cheers from your lake erie neighbors to the north!

[@AndrewStonerock]

There's a reason we go for CLEAN headroom these days. Plus, all that power amp distortion feels weird for me. The compression doesnt sit well with my play style. To be honest, i hate marshall amps. There is just something in the mids that i do not like.

[@vondragonnoggin]

Definitely not a blanket statement appropriate rule. On the flip side of that, all the Marshall In A Box type pedals people buy to try and duplicate the cranked Plexi or JCM800 sounds but can’t seem to nail it, fail because they miss the compression and distinct saturation of power tubes. Why did most of the modelers start coming out with their own power tube modeling and things like the Two Notes Torpedo and Fractals Axe FX model power tubes to the point of adding the saturation and compression? Those were heavily requested by customers because of a distinctly missing piece of the tone when modeling Plexi, Deluxe, JCM800, Mark IV, Supergroup, Orange GRO, etc sounds. Blanket rules on tones just never apply when you cover a genre of music that has spanned 7 decades (60’s - 2020’s). Use what is appropriate for the tone and era of the music you are going for. You can definitely use cranked power tubes and not have muddy tone, but you need to know when to add more push to the front end, type of clipping, and where a bass cut works best to tighten it. Don’t expect to get modern metal tones with cranked power amps though. Interesting video and I agreed with a lot of it and disagreed with some of it too. In the end the message was spot on - if it sounds good to you, that is the most important factor.

[@curtisprice9806]

Love your video and your channel! You are a very cool and hilarious guy! Output transformer saturation is what you meant...nobody talks about power transformer saturation. Yes, an output transformer is the heart and soul of an amp. My experience is a cranked 100 watt Marshall Superlead sounds too muddy, mid-range "y", and not very articulate...very blurred. Just what you said. It is because the output transformer is distorting! Halfway cranked using a post phase inverter master volume installed on model 1959 and 1987 sounds best. The output transformer is adding its pleasing tone, the output power tubes also are adding some harmonic "color", and the speakers are moving some serious air! A stack not cranked sounds thin, fizzy, and the speakers aren't even moving back n forth...awful. Just like you said again...experiment and find what you like and what your amp can do!

[@masterchain3335]

Great video. I've always wondered why, as you say, the accepted dogma of guitar tone is that you need to crank an amp to get it to sound good. I don't even really play modern metal, per se, but I do like a tighter sound regardless of what I'm playing and I don't really like the sound of PA distortion.

[@MetalHeadPyro510]

It's more about cranking the gain on the clean channel for a distortion pedal platform. The treble and mid knob on the amp is pretty useless at that point and adds nothing but hiss. Leave them at zero. Presence on 8 and bass on 2. Sounds monstrous.

[@chrjesusfuckist4415]

It's actually a little known fact that all the best thrash tones were made using a cranked 4 watt champ with a torn speaker cone

[@DemonKingOFFICIAL]

Crazy how you can see the sag in action with the dimming of the power switch LED when it’s really cranked up. Another cool vid, sir!

[@ByrdWhiteMovie]

Late to the thread, but this guy gets it! It's tedious listening to people yell back & forth about this when neither side understand what the other is talking about. Old Marshalls sag when you crank everything to 10, and this is a good thing... for playing that doesn't involve tight response & precise tracking. 32nd notes on the low strings are flubby & virtually indiscernible through a maxed-out plexi, but then switch to Blue Cheer or AC/DC through the same settings and it's going to sound amazing. After that power section starts clipping, the master volume becomes more about how extra gain affects the eq profile than decibels.

[@belligerentamateur]

Glad you get it, my friend!

[@superZEROKID]

I love that you made a video just for the naysayers 🤘 lol keep up the good work

[@olanilsenkjren2667]

your channel is way underrated. 500k sub content.

[@belligerentamateur]

thank you my friend!

[@stinger720]

I like to play at half or 1 o'clock. the sag in the low end is much clearer than trying to push power section. pull back on the gain to right before it fluffy out but keeps tight.

[@belligerentamateur]

I have no idea what you just said

[@s1wheel4]

Kyle is always doing something cool. My favorite channel. Great point!

[@belligerentamateur]

Appreciate you!

[@justinainsworth6264]

The master cranked really sounds great for lead tones which when you think about rhythm to lead sounds volume difference makes perfect sense. Also with Super Leads it was common to run the bass off because of the natural low end both loud resonance and the amp circuit dimed creates which gives a much tighter sound, but definitely not a huge chunky metal sound no doubt about it.

[@eyedunno8462]

The Phase Invertor cap on most Marshalls and stock 800s is pretty unecessarily large .022uf, lots of 4 and 5 stage gain amps will use a .0022 or .0047 here to tighten things up, then use the Resonance through the Negative Feedback to regain some low emd thump, but is much clearer. Changing that even to a .0068 would allow you to push the power amp section much further before flubs creeps in, honestly still sounds like a classic Marshall just some fat trimmed out

[@TheKLeifheit13]

I'm definitely finding that true master volume Peaveys have a sweet spot right around 4-6 where the treble and presence comes alive and the bass gets punchy. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with overall volume level, moreso just getting the tubes warm enough to wake up and push all the frequencies through. Never really any added saturation. Also, as a whaleshit heavy southern rock guy I enjoy both the tight non-cranked tones and the cranked, flubby tones you get here. Definitely see why you want the tighter tone for your music though.

[@lukecoverdale1]

I think a big thing about why the saturated power amp was sounding so bad in your video was how high you were running the bass, having it on 10 and then down to 7 at the lowest. When I crank the master on my 1979 2204, running into a captor and IR also, I always have the bass on 0-2 at most, it still has plenty of load end but tightens up the amp a ton and reduces how flubby and overblown it can sound with the bass higher. I get Van Halen I levels of gain just by running the master on 9 and the preamp on 4. Turn on a SD-1 and its instant Kill em All era Metallica tone. Worth a try if you haven't already.

[@belligerentamateur]

just to counter what you're saying here, the eq knobs on these amps are known for not doing much at all, including the bass knob. sure, it would have pulled a little low end our, but all that saw and swell would still be there even if I turned it say down

[@joshuakern7078]

I love that you touch on tone being a subjective thing. In a live setting, front of house is trimming your dirty frequencies and adding back things that are loss…..meaning you don’t sound like your amp through the mains. Pedal board chains, amp settings, speakers…..blah blah blah - most of the shit we have spent all this money on sounds exactly like something else that was cheaper, we just decided a name means more than it does.

[@crucifixgym]

I only put the master on 11 when I echo riffs and leads off the mountains across the valley off my porch.

[@TheOtherJohnBrowne]

Forget bleeding from the ears. I'd be worried about bleeding from the asshole as the insane volume might turn your organs to mush Great video! I think a lot of people might be confused by the word "cranking", myself included. Does that really mean turning up all the way? Because turning up the volume to the point where the amp gets to breathe is a valid concept to me. The Peavey 5150/6505 amps for example only really come alive for me at loud band practice volumes but that's like between 2 and 3 on the post gain. No where near being maxed out or close to power section saturation. That's why I love the Herbert so much. 180 watts of tight, clean power section

[@fredmachine]

I agree, to me "cranking" is just pushing the MV to like 4 or 5, not necessarily setting it to 10. You can play those 2203s at nearly bedroom volume with carefully putting the MV at like 0.5, but there's something lacking in the sound then.

[@belligerentamateur]

People mistake the "amp breathing" for speakers actually moving air in the room. That's usually what they're referring to.

[@TheOtherJohnBrowne]

@@belligerentamateur Valid point. In the case of the 5150 I notice it through my Two Notes Torpedo Live too though. There are likely several variables here

[@armandomorenotherevival7827]

Something to add with old Marshalls, is if you want a tight but punchy in the power section you probably want to use 6550 tubes or KT88’s . There is lil to no breakup compared to El 34’ s

[@resington]

Cranked power sections are only good for leads to be honest and we don't do that here! Great vid Kyle. More like this.

[@thomasterry1685]

Very true. Acdc the amp was great , but then Metallica came out we loved it but needed more gain . We hunted for the best dist. Pedals. I liked the Washburn stack in a box. But what your saying was true back then.

[@almostliterally593]

Try uſing an MXR Diſtortion + in front of þat amp, wiþ volume turned all þe way up

[@riffmondo9733]

I never cranked my 2203 back in the 80’s/90’s. Way too loud for most bars. We always got complaints to turn it down. So this way how I ran mine, pretty much as you are here.

[@ltxr9973]

I think the 2203/2204 sounds great at any volume and I like the transparency it has on lower volume. Cranking the master and turning the preamp to about half is a great, more plexi like tone. Both on 10 is almost too much gain, you wouldn't need a pedal anymore gain wise but there needs to be something that cleans up the low end a little, unless you're playing doom metal. They're brutal if you crank them, especially the 100W. But a open back Twin Reverb would be even more brutal if you were to crank it.

[@andrewdenine1685]

Whatever floats your boat , it really depends what type pickups single or h.b or p90s (pops rocks ) more headroom without the preamp cranked unless you got a marshall DSL 15H on classic tone lol

[@jrlee243]

I inherited a marshall jmp 50 mid 70s, marshall bass amp, I think that's the oldest one out of the bunch. Pretty much the same one Lemme used. early Laney 100, and a Gibson PA combo amp. His band used it for vocals. His hay day of live shows had no P.A. system. He cranked everything on the master and the eq. The eq was not much help. It seems all of the tone came from the power section. What you hear is what you get. The cab seems like more of a EQ than actual EQ. Are they better for metal in my opinion. No not at all. When we would play, he would lose his mind if I plugged in an over drive or an EQ pedal. Lol. He passed years ago and he wanted me to have them. I love them and how they sound depending on the type of gig we have, or if I have session work in a studio. My favorite thing is to run a modern amp with one of them. But that's just my experience with these types of amps

[@needsLITHIUM]

put the MV and preamp gain at 2 o'clock, ride the high and presence controls if you have them, and then still use an OD or boost pedal anyway. Problem solved. Power amp saturation is great - in moderation, especially because EL34 tubes tend to be brighter when not pushed, but get flubby and tubby when they get the juice. 6L6 tubes are the opposite. They lend to darker tones when not pushed so hard, but their breakup character can very quickly get into ice pick overtones and sound really harsh in a way that is by all means very unpleasant. Most amps need a bit of power tube saturation, even modern amps in my opinion, but they still need pedals out front to push the preamp harder to get the right balanced timbre and the big, yet tight and focused, low end.

[@akaboo69]

I've always loved marshall tones but today the ENGL tone is more my speed these days. It covers power metal Melo death.

[@dixonrooster5954]

Hiya Kyle. Dude, you make some fantastic content. You have a good sense of what's what's and you don't get too hung up on the "small print", which is good cause most folks don't care. He's the part where I contradict myself, here me out. You should invest in a Boss Waza TAE. It IS far better than a torpedo. Reason. It doesn't attenuate, its a load box that reamps your signal. (I'm pretty sure lol). But we all know attenuated amps sound mostly shit when heavily attenuated. Some folks will say you loose the analog thing with the Waza, but guess what, you loose that analog thing when you go into a DAW. Anyway. I used to own a JCM 2000 100w DSL, shitty master volumes. I had a Friedman be100, which had a great MV, and I currently own a 50w Plexi. The boss worked very well with all of them.

[@kingnick6260]

We’ve probably read the same forum posts from the last 15 - 20 years. I’ve owned my Marshall JMP 2203, 2204, & Cameron modded Marshalls for a couple of years. The master volumes set past the 12 o’clock level have ALWAYS sounded like balls 😆. These forum bedroom noodlers had no idea what they were talking about… and I’m nowhere near playing Hendrix tunes at a 10k stadium. If anything, my master volumes set to the 9 o’clock level was THE sweet spot (for me)

[@angrybadger616]

This is why a modded vintage Marshall is so kick ass for metal. By juicing up the preamp or boosting the signal up front you get the gain and still keep the tight power section. Metal tones are different from rock tones.

[@heavilymedicated321]

No need for a marshall. Just buy the loudest best clean amp you can find and use your favorite distortion pedal. Mine costs less than 50$. I got my 75 watt randall for 160. And it sounds just as good as this 2000$ or close setup. It helps to have good pickups and strings on your guitar too

[@yearginclarke]

I find when using a master volume OR non-master amp, cranking the power amp while trying to get a typical metal tone just sounds like flubby garbage with no clarity. Early on when I got my first tube amps I tried the "crank it" approach, but quickly found it doesn't really work for metal. On my Marshall SV20, with just a guitar plugged in and no pedals, I will crank it up to medium levels for a basic classic rock tone. But when using a distortion pedal with it for metal tones, again it just doesn't sound good if the power amp is saturated. I've had other non-master amps in the past that responded pretty much the same way.

[@HyBr1dRaNg3r]

Why don’t you take out bass and add treble when you have it pushed into power tube distortion? You should still be able to dial out the flub and add to the highs, with the extra gain…? Right? Or am I missing something?

[@The_Bass_Stunters]

Bro it’s criminal that this channel doesn’t have 100K subscribers yet…. God Speed sir.

[@creatio1]

Great vid Kyle 😊 BTW - what gauge did you use for the lowest string in drop C? Cheers!

[@rdavid3848]

I use a THD Hot Plate. Master sounds great at around 1:00 o’clock. But if it got flabby, I roll back some bass. No problem.

[@guitarandmore69]

Btw get a power soak for cranked tones live or at bedroom volumes.

[@andrewrobert5019]

First video of yours I’ve seen and I love it. Thanks for the GREAT info. New subscriber

[@rocketpigrecords3719]

Which metal, which amp, which situation? Got to record with my dream drummer, platimum selling arena rocking guy. Amp was a YBA1 (plexi reimagined as a 60w EL34 bass head), dirt was Tri AC. On my suggestion we tracked simultaneously in the same room, for live feel + little rehearsal time. He used his arena kit from the 90s, so cool. That little fucker was LOUD by itself, but with a Thiele it was just enough to stand up to his onslaught - wide open AND boosted slightly by the Tech 21 Amps have changed; drum kits hit like a MAN haven't, and old bands played in situations where loud amp volume was necessary to just hear themselves! Plus 100 watters weren't really a common thing till the 70s. Many old cats simply had to crank the 30, 40, 50 watts they had. If you're in the doomier, stoner end of the pool, or have more "classic" tastes, you might like a 50 watter or using half power. Drop A, heavily gated meyalcore guys want that modern "mesa" power setup.