STOP this Plugin Doctor MADNESS! (presented on Sa2rate 2 HW vs plugin)

Hey, people! Thanks for all the feedback on my previous vid on Sa2rate 2 hardware vs plugin! The vid got very positive feedback, but I was also criticised by one person for going too subjective, poetic, artistic, even spiritual and for... not using Plugin Doctor objective measurements.
I didn't use it for a purpose, because I believe it's just TRASH and waste of time in most cases. It takes you far away from music making and critical listening and leaves you nowhere, simple as that.
I'll try to make my point in the following vid, analysing Sa2rate with Plugin Doctor, as requested. Enjoy!
0:00 Intro
2:35 Making a bet before the test
4:42 Plugin Doctor madness
9:46 Checking the bet results
11:00 Summing tha thingz up!

[@DaveChips]

I don't need plugin doctor... But I'm also grateful for Dan Worral and Paul for calling out some companies and their BS marketing

[@compoundaudio]

👌🏼 well said

[@FoliaSound]

Yes, this is a valid use of Plugin Doc! I should have stressed it out more in my video!

[@st33Npuist]

@@FoliaSound Kurwa! 🤣🥰

[@thevi_olin]

I understand your point of view, and you have a valid point. When creating the dr serves no need. As an artist, my instrument is my guitar or keyboard. As an engineer the dr is however a valuable tool to understand what plug-ins do. It’s relevant to me as a curious engineer looking to understand the world of sound processing. That knowledge helps me to focus on my music when the time is there. I enjoy learning about music theory, and i enjoy learning about signal processing. Fourier analysis, electronics, music, we have so many beautiful fields of knowledge we can dive into. And critical listening is absolutely a vital skill, but the dr actually tells me a plugin is actually doing something so i know I am not wasting time listening for modelled capacitors, resistors and transistors when the dr confirms it’s just a bog standard digital eq that cramps at Nyquist. The artist doesn’t care, the engineer does :) .

[@FoliaSound]

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of this Dan Worrall vs Harrison thing. And yes, PD is a tool that has few applications, but in most cases - it's really, really overused.

[@Projektor_music]

I'd like to make a counter argument to this video, coming from the perspective of someone who makes tutorials & presents information to others I believe it is crucial that statements made in a video are somewhat backed up by evidence & logic. I, personally, don't like videos that claim things like "this plugin sounds good" or "these settings give you a better mix" without actually knowing what is going on under the hood. Plugin Doctor allows for tutorial makers to visualize what they are hearing for their audience and in that way it is useful. You made some assumptions and used Plugin Doctor to verify them, but claimed that you didn't need the visuals because you could hear it too. But are you certain that your audience can hear it too? Over 50% of my views come from mobile devices so I will assume a similar number for you. If you would not show Plugin Doctor then people watching on mobile devices won't be able to verify the assumption of the bass being louder, as mobile devices won't output content at the relevant frequencies, they won't hear it. From an artistic standpoint I agree more with you that Plugin Doctor is not needed in daily production. But I don't believe it should be avoided all together. For example synthesising a psytrance (the genre i produce) bassline requires control over the phase differences between harmonics of a saw bass. Filters will change those difference massively so any plugin using filters, like multiband effects or EQ's have an influence on the differences of phase between the harmonics. This is incredibly hard to hear when first synthesizing your bassline and will only become noticeable after processing and mixing. To be precise in order for the transient of the bass to stand out and have enough space, the sub bass and lower harmonics are shifted backwards in time using filters (often multiband filters). If you are in the process of synthesizing your bass it is almost impossible to hear these shifts until you add all the processing, which is often done after resampling the bassline. This means that if you don't know about these phase shifts it will be harder for you to create a good sounding bassline. Plugin Doctor could be used in this case to see the impact of plugins on your bass. at the end of the video you come up with 3 reasons to use Plugin Doctor, I'd like to present some more: - You can learn about different distortion types by looking at the harmonic series, giving you a deeper understanding of distortion. - You can use it to verify that a plugin does what it advertises, especially when running a demo if you consider buying a plugin. There have been cases of plugin developers trying to sell expensive plugins that turn out to be a simple digital EQ. - you can use it to verify that hardware units still work as they should. Finally I want to say that getting better at making music is just like mastering any other skill. If you ask a pro footballer what he does to become better you will hear him mention all kinds of exercises & routines he uses. He doesn't just play the game, he trains. musicians have to do the same and that training includes knowing the tools you work with well.

[@FoliaSound]

Hey, Projektor, thanks for a comment! Let me reply briefly: I believe that listening to mixing tutorials on mobile devices without headphones is the worst idea you might have. I also do watch vids on my mobile device, but I always use headphones. Trying to listen to anything without them sounds like a disaster and in this case - any graph or measurement won't take you anywhere. As for phasing issues: you can get rid of them perfectly witout using Plugin Doc or other measurin tools, Dan Worrall and Luca Pretolesi show it nicely in their tutorials. As for additional uses of Plugin Doc: I already mentioned hardware malfunctioning. As for watching dishonest marketing, I mentioned Paul Third, but I dod it the wrong, "funny" way. Yes, you're right: when there's clearly wrong with the plugin emulating the HW - go Plugin Doc and check on that. The case of Looptrotter Sa2rate 2 wasn't the case. My vid isna response to a critiqie that I didn't run Plugin Doc in this particular vid. i believe I showed thoroughly why it wasn't needed and, frankly, is not needed in most cases.

[@Projektor_music]

​@@FoliaSound even if you believe tutorials should be watched in adequate listening environments, you can't always make sure everyone does. In those cases plugin doctor provides a good way to get the information across, which is the point of the tutorial. it's not about reducing phasing issues (although that is also a concern). it is about introducing phasing deliberately in a way that shifts the lower harmonics of the bass backwards. In order to do effectively you need to know which plugins introduce phase shift and how much they introduce. Plugin doctor is the best way to do this. At the end of the day you are right if you said that for normal mixing applications Plugin Doctor is not useful, but it is like saying a gym exercise bike is no use to a pro cyclist in a match. Sure if you put him on the exercise bike he won't get very far but it was useful for him in training for the match. You will understand your plugins better when you know what they do both musically and analytically rather than just musically and therefor your mixes will be better at the end of the day.

[@MrlegendOr]

@@Projektor_music Perfect!

[@andrewwhitehouse1878]

Thank you for posting this.. while the analysis side of things can definitely help in some cases, and certainly some YTers who are dispelling marketing hype are doing a good community service.. you’re absolutely right and at the end of the day all this obsessing about tools is taking away from being creative and making music.. as with all hobbies or passions though, there’s no rules and whatever helps you get enjoyment from your music is valid for you as an individual ❤😊

[@flynnleese8222]

A more interactive way I test plugins lately is using delta solo in Reaper to only hear the differences when at unity gain. It's also good for catching out those plugins that mislead by boosting the volume without telling you. Plugin Doctor is a tricky program because it can give you the wrong impression on quality, like how brutal the visuals shows aliasing even on very clean sounding plugins, even if it is below 100db... or how messy the frequency analysis is with non-linear plugins. If I judged my plugins based on Doctor alone I would assume they'd all be an aliasy mess, but many times that's just not the case in practice at all.

[@EdwinDekker71]

Yes! I love the delta solo function.

[@joesalyers]

I beta test as well and the only time I use these types of tool is to double check EQ curves for deviations between the hardware and software, since my hardware unit might be drastically different from the one being modeled by the developer. Take for example the SSL G channel strip from plugin alliance the Orange Knob 232 EQ. The plugin was a cross between 14 different hardware units. Each hardware 232 eq (known as the passive SSL or pultec SSL) was drastically different in the Q control. There was even a huge deviation in the Q control on my 3 units. So what Plugin Alliance looked at all of the units and found the common Q response from the units and from the original schematics for each, and then overlayed their TMT algorithm on top of that as random deviations to that initial chosen curve. So it's not exactly a perfect clone of any one single SSL 232 EQ but with the TMT added on top to the SSL G EQ makes it more likely to be similar to the deviations you would see if you bought a SSL 232 and wanted to compare it to my 232s or Warren Huart's 232 EQ's in his SSL console or the units Dirk at plugin alliance had. A lot of hardware units especially those units which have been used for years begin to change (sometimes drastically) also internal parts changed during manufacturing due to supply changes can change the sound. I can tell you there was about a year of work, testing and analyzing the hardware before the first plugin was tested and another 6 months testing the plugins against the hardware for all kinds of things. Phase coherency, transient response, distortions, and so on. So Plugin doctor is OK for tools like that, I prefer to look at EQ curves with the Bertom EQ analyzer since it's always worked as a DAW plugin but that is just my personal preference. I'll probably get a ton of hate for this next sentence but the truth is the truth, Lets just remember most of the guys using plugin doctor to quote" call out" these companies aren't producing records, they are video content creators who's sole purpose is to get views and clicks. I don't have any problem with them making a living talking about audio products, it's no different than Linus Tech Tips talking about a new CPU or graphics card. But you should really test gear in a real world scenario. Just grabbing the latest plugins to make a video of you running it through plugin doctor is very weird. The no talking silent test is the best way to let people judge for themselves since you are influencing your opinion on them. All music gear, from plugins to hardware has been a a small community for decades. Most of the stuff we use is recycled from other industries. The first compressors came from Navy communications limiters used to boost a voice call over long distances, hence the Federal Limiters from the US Army were born. We think of SSL or Neve in hardware and Waves & UAD in plugins as these giant corporations but in fact they have a handful of employees and are VERY tiny compared to even most hometown grocery stores. Yet they make a ton of money so we see them as being as big as Coca-Cola or Pepsi. Your ears are the most important thing to judge any musical tool. Everything has flaws and noting is a perfect copy. But you might find a cheap DBX compressor sounds good on snare drums in your room where as I might find that for me it doesn't work in my tracking room or mix environment. But because it doesn't work for me does not mean it is junk and no one should buy it. The all or nothing thing is kind of old and outdated. Complaining about modern digital tools is silly. Everyone has their favorite 1176 plugin since they are all so different JUST LIKE HARDWARE. Ironically the sheer amount of gear available today was unthinkable when I started in the mid 1990s. It use to take $100,000 dollars to get the gear just make a record that was close to something you heard on the radio in prior decades. Now for about the cost of a few meals at McDonalds you can make a hit record. So in the end if you aren't making music then you are really wasting your time since you can make music EQUAL to any hit song on the radio today!!

[@TA_Solberg]

You are using PD to validate your assumptions, for that I think this video demonstrated beautifully why a tool like this might be good to have. Should data from PD override your mixing decisions? . .No, absolutely not, your ears should be the deciding vote. There are however people out there with imperfect hearing and imperfect rooms, visual tools are absolutely helpful. When getting a new plugin, I will play around with it, read the manual, and finally pop it open in PD to get a complete picture. I have had great use for PD as a learning and teaching tool. I think it's great fun analyzing different plugins, matching what I see to what I hear, testing my own assumptions, and my own hearing. I do see your point though, it's far from an "essential" tool for musicians, and time spent in it could be spent making music 😊

[@jamespingel8730]

I beta test plugins for a few companies and I don't even own plugin doctor. When a plugin gets sent to me, I'm asked to look at it and make sure I can read everything, that I can figure out how it works without a manual (since the manual doesn't exist when I get the plugin in many cases), that it doesn't crash, that it works well when I want to move controls - or automate them - and there is often an issue somewhere in all of that the first time around. Then, and only then, do I even start to worry about the sound. Seriously, I don't even turn on my speakers the first time I load a new plugin, I test all that stuff before I'll even begin to listen. There's so much more to a plugin than just the sound, and I think a lot of the top companies out there know this.

[@rickythethird]

could you explain what else there could be to a plugin? new and thanks for your comment by the way

[@glennloopez]

Amen Paul. Continue to use your ears.

[@mrmorpheus9707]

Been saying that for years! WE MAKE MUSIC FOR THE CONSUMER", they dont think..hmmm hey that song has cramping! I dont like it! That dont give a damn about these things..THEY LIKE YOUR SONG OR THEY DONT!

[@aphexish]

Audio Engineering is the reason you need this. Like you said, naming things.

[@richertz]

I don’t totally agree that. I think it’s a tool that if you use it carefully can be informative. I used the demo to clarify what I was hearing between 2 similar plugins. One of these sounded better and sweeter - and indeed the harmonics showed me why I preferred the sweeter plugin. Also some companies are just remarketing basic algos and it’s good to call them out so we don’t end up with 10 plugins that do the same thing. I can use my ears for this to be honest but those with younger ears might pick up on this quicker. Whilst I agree we work with music but we are also audio engineers.

[@arendleejessurun]

I think a more measured (no pun intended) approach is called for here. This debate over focusing on the technical vs. perceptual aspects of audio smacks of the debate over whether musicians should learn music theory. I agree with the sentiment that we engineers should be training our ears and describing music perceptually, however, I use Plugin Doctor and other analysis tools as a way to help me understand and describe my tools technically. When a client describes to me what they perceive and what they want to perceive, I need to have the technical foundation of how to facilitate that. Having an understanding of both the perceptual and the technical together are, IMO, what makes a good engineer. We are engineers after all, as well as musicians. Going back to the music theory metaphor: music theory is a tool-not a rule-and it can be helpful for getting quick results without having to shoot in the dark; performing measurements of my processors grants me the same kind of knowledge and wisdom.

[@FoliaSound]

Hey, Arend, I really like your call to a more measured approach! The music theory comparison is also a good one. I'm gonna end up with a third Plugin Doc video, I learned a lot of great and totally valid points of view I didn't actually include in my own statemement. Thanks a lot, guys, I have learned a lot from this discussion, really a lot!

[@arendleejessurun]

@@FoliaSound I hope you get some good money from YT out of all this engagement. Cheers! :)

[@jerryg7491]

Art for the sake of art you’re right

[@sos-tegno]

i am not so sure anymore if there are any differences at all in the virtual EQ world -plug in doctor hepled me to come up to that conclusion. I did a test myself with 5 virtual eqs and the SPL EQ aswell... matched their curves with plug in doc, and they all sound the same... you can find the testvideo on my YT-page.

[@ReynaldoIvanPena]

Is there an alternative to Plug-in Doctor for Pro Tools?

[@FoliaSound]

Plugin Doctor works standalone, so no metter your DAW - you can use it as a separate app!

[@davidasher22]

This is perfect timing! Snake Oil guy just put out a video test some new high end enhancer plugin. And thought that it sounded good until he decided to run it through plugin doctor and saw the aliasing! Like really dude!? You gotta watch it.. it’s cringey. First he tries to null it with an eq and when he can he decides to open up plugin doctor and gets super upset when he starts cranking it and sees the aliasing distortion. Haha 😂. I was just dying thinking about you..

[@scottharris7222]

He saw the evidence of added harmonics which he said may or may not be complimentary on all sources and noted that there was no over-sampling to deal with the aliasing which can be an issue in mastering when the audio is exposed. You can't easily hear these artifacts on all sources and that is point the of using some analytic tools. There is no need for a plugin to introduce artifacts unless by design. His biggest issue was with the price. If anything, Snake Oil guy usually reacts emotionally in his reviews. He often takes a very shallow dive into the plugin (often doesn't read the manual), hates on skeumorphic interfaces and tinkers with the plugin for 8 minutes or so. He is someone that needs more rigour in his reviews. He also has very good ears. I have hired him to master my material. Using the tool and having good ears is entirely possible. Plugin doctor doesn't have to ruin your music and reviewers should be aware that they can't always trust their ear. Human auditory perception is tremendously unreliable.

[@FoliaSound]

Well said, Scott! I actually stopped watching Wytse's videos for this very reason: they are shallow and tell very little about both plugins and mixing/mastering processes. I think that Wytse fell into some kind of routine that lets him simply sustain the channel. I can see he stopped developing/evolving as a YT person and somehow - let me say this - as an audio pro, at least from what I see in the vids. Everything-is-snake-oil reviews are definitely overdosed by him and take me nowhere. Hope he changes it one day :)

[@auralsunrays9229]

I agree that it's not needed to make great music at all. But imho you forgot a very important point: plugin doctor can help you against marketing traps. For example: one year ago i tested out Acustica Audio plugins and i thought their EQs sounded so good and marketing wants me to believe it's because of some kind of "analog magic". So i used plugin doctor to match the EQ curves with a digital EQ (UVI Shade in this case) and then used HOFA blind test to compare. And guess what...there was no difference between the two for me. So, plugin doctor can help you decide if a plugin really offers something unique that you don't have in your toolbox yet, or it doesn't and you can save your money.

[@FoliaSound]

Hey, thanks for a comment! Sure thing, I believe that there's a need of at least one yt person, who can check things with Plugin Doc for us. What I meant in my vid, that my particular test - and most of other yt tests - absolutely don't need running PD, critical listening tells you all. I was accused of not running PD in my particular Looptrotter vid - and my response aims this very particular case. I didn't have to run Plugin Doc to know that the plugin was close to rhe original and wasn't a hoax design.

[@Skyverb]

This. Can seriously help tone match guitars too. Like I'm happy with my physical amps and amp sims. But if a new sim comes out; I do the free trial for it; but tone match within the sims I own to create the tone I liked from the new one. Super useful tool. I do agree it shouldn't be used to make creative decisions; but it's a tool, not for use for composing.

[@RecordingStudio9]

I somewhat agree with you, as you don't need to test and analyse every plugin to be able to use it. I use it if I feel (hear) something is not right with a plugin I have chosen to engage, just to verify.

[@FoliaSound]

Exactly!

[@bontempo1271]

For music makers ? No. For mix and mastering engineers, it can be of service to identify exactly what your tools are doing. You'll either confirm what you heard or be surprised at some of the things you didn't know about it. And it's handy for our current quest of comparing the progress of software. I mean, look at your example. Howcome you can sit there with plugin doctor and find out huge differences in frequency response, and the developers can't ? It blows my mind. Is this not meant to be an emulation of the hardware ? Going by their advertising, it is : "Exacting emulation of the world class saturator, SA2RATE 2, endorsed and approved by Looptrotter". Blows my mind. I don't understand what's going on.

[@FoliaSound]

What I mean as "music making", was actually the process of mixing and mastering as an integral part of creating music. I wasn't too precise about it, my bad! As for the differences, I have to tell you that I believe that around 95% of the marketing telling people something is "exact" is complete BS and I also knew it before running the PD - I made an assumption in the beginning, that the plugin and hardware are going to be similar in general, but less alike when on extreme settings. I also stated that same tone needs different dials. I knew it BEFORE running Plugin Doc and this is exactly my point: in most cases it's absolutely enough to listen to things critically and draw conclusions. I don't need Plugin Doc for that :) Hope I clarified a bit on my approach!

[@bontempo1271]

@@FoliaSound I think we are both correct lol

[@cinemalulli]

I think you are wrong in putting PD as a plugin that distracts you from creating music because it is simply a tool that allows you to watch what your plugin does. A lot of plugin manufacturers take advantage of this by passing off as 'magic' what magic is not, when you realise that your money spent on that vintage-looking eq is nothing more than something you can do again for free, perhaps with a native eq. Paul is a good guy and many times also helps you not to spend money unnecessarily. That said, it's all very well not to get paranoid with PD, using the plugins we like best, but demonising PD is unnecessary, simply because it's an analyser, like so many analysers we use to make music

[@INeedsMoneys]

You should have analyzed the phase shift of the hardware like you show in the thumbnail. I was really interested in whats going on with the phase shift of analog saturation. I have some analog saturation gear that shows crazy phase shifting on the plugin doctor. What is this all about? 🧐

[@TheJohnsofDoes]

It's not phase shifting..it's just the delay that naturally occurs between passive components..you don't hear any of it though. Also, don't forget that analog is continuous and has noisefloors which are NONLINEAR behaviour. Anything nonlinear is going to look strange when looking at through linear analysis methods e.g dirac impulse responses

[@INeedsMoneys]

@@TheJohnsofDoes aaah, makes sense! Thanks for clearing that up for me. Ive always wondered. Component delay, so obvious when you think about it. So different frequencies goes through different components? Or maybe the whole frequency spectrum goes through all the components but some components alter the frequencies differently because of the nature of the component. Interesting nonetheless

[@timepainter6831]

Just saw your video, I own a lot of hardware, not for the reason that it´s essential, but for the reason it makes me creative. Technically it´s easy to argue that my walldorf quantum is completely redundant and dwarfed by pigments, UVI Falcon which I also own. And my tube equalisers and compressors, while I have great software emulations? Then it´s about not getting to technical. I like for instance quite a lot analyser tools, but for the most part learning purposes. I found, that slowly, because of twisting knobs, looking at professionals my ears start developing and hearing what I´m doing. For that technical learning is important, but it shouldn't kill creativity...

[@AquacyWatch]

I hear they are coming out with Plug In Nurse next.

[@JoaoRelego]

Some years from now there will be a plugin to introduce alias because some famous album/artist used the "wrong" plugin.

[@KYTHERAOfficial]

Yes and no. You are not wrong. But for something like Spl Vitalizer I think of installing plugin doctor to learn the curves better since they are not doing stuff intuitively

[@agentviktor3297]

In defense of Paul, he did a LOT if blind testing before he put his paws on PD. And he still does actually.

[@GospelDjshane]

I have plugin doctor and use it a few times to look at a few plugins. But I totally agree with you you're 100% right 👍🏽

[@benjaminjoeBF3]

You are measuring a non linear processor with a linear test. Switch to Hammerstein. Just saying.

[@jamescuttsmusicjcm5013]

What are you talking about dude? plugin doctor isn't for composing. lmfao. smh.

[@FoliaSound]

I know it, come on :) What I mean is that it's taking you away from music making in general - saying this I don't mean composing, I mean mixing as a part of music making process. In most cases I see on the web PD is overused and totally obsolete and I decided to talk about it in a vid. That's it!

[@jamescuttsmusicjcm5013]

@@FoliaSound I do not understand what you mean about it being obsolete? It is a tool for a job. Are hammers obsolete? Lol. No. Would you use a hammer to fry an egg? No. Why would people be using plugin doctor during the music making / mixing process? It is for analysis. As a developer all I can say is that it is a brilliant piece of software. I have never once used it to mix or master a track. Also, it is great for catching the snake oil before it takes hold. For example, you can have aliasing come out of your eyeballs, and that is fine as long as you do not try to claim that your plugin is emulating analogue behaviour. You can have completely linear processing in your plugin... so long as you do not claim (like a certain particular group) that your plugin models an analogue EQ. People simply cannot argue with Plugin Doctor. It is an objective analysis tool that so long as it is used correctly, is 100% accurate. That is why people use it.

[@bobpaker430]

lol for distortion vst (same for compressor who add distorsion) you can't use the linear analysis, but you have to use the hammertein, with distortion or saturation vst linear analysis will always react bad, it did peak close to the nquyst and when you more the parameter it don't represent the reality, the linear frequency isn't good. This is what a sound engineer must know but no luck, so need to go back to school to improve knowledge like you said a 13'20 This tool is very usefull to know what vst really do or the brand don't fool you just by boosting the volume, do a small EQ curve, how it deal aliasing,..........

[@firstnamesurname6550]

Agree, but at the same time, it seems not 'bad' a couple of gear head nerds doing their quantitative analysis of software products ... specially, when/where the sellers base their sales in 'hardware emulation BS' ...

[@bradleypower4803]

I disagree - Plug-in Doctor is helpful for me as a reminder I don’t need to buy new EQ plug-ins just because I like the GUI

[@FoliaSound]

Good for you then!

[@RipleySterling]

In my opinion, tech specs are useful, but I trust plugin alliance, and I'm sure their plugins are fine and well made enough for all of my use cases, and I don't need to diagnose them myself. All of the time spent looking at specs is simply time away from being creative, I agree.

[@xzxz2169]

People who are into plugin doctor /who always complain about loudness matching/ who always cry about 44.1khz rate sounds same as 192khz,384khz/ who says digital sounds same as analog type of people always forget that music is about listening +Their music/mix/master never sounds professional or good Its just all talk

[@anissbenthami]

You don't need PD for music making that's obvious but you need it for analysing purposes to make sure the plugins you bought deliver what they promise

[@TheMixClub]

Good video. I agree with you on this.. Stay Safe My Friend.

[@thakeyzzle]

I don't totally agree with you. Plug-in doctor made it possible to confirm your predictions. So plug-in doctors was useful. He also helped you quickly understand what settings you had to make to be able to replicate the settings on the hardware. You also understood that without the 'magic' button you didn't have the right dose of low frequencies. We better understand what's behind the magic button

[@MrlegendOr]

I don't care and I will continu to use it to monitor and understand plugins before buy it . Too many snake oil in this industry 🙃

[@FoliaSound]

Fair point, man, I respect that :)

[@Mike_Benz_]

Plugin Doctor just makes me hate all plugins..

[@MrlegendOr]

And it a good thing because many of theses plugins are just marketing algo 🙃

[@duncan.o-vic]

Sorry but you don't know how to read Plugin Doctor.

[@kaisersoze9488]

Nobody used plugin doctor in the early 20's, 30's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's etc., to make good music I believe back then everybody used their ears....plugin doctor was made for plugin engineer designers to compare and diagnose problems with their algorithm from the hardware response to get quite close to the original design but never to emulate it since every hardware design is and sounds different.

[@FoliaSound]

Exactly!

[@scottharris7222]

Your point is we’ll taken but over stated. If a plugin’s marketing claims are proven to be false through data obtained with plugin doctor, that may provide actual evidence to support a contradictory opinion. Measurement is important to validate or dispute claims. I am glad some KZbinrs use the tool to hold marketing to account.

[@kaisersoze9488]

@@scottharris7222 The 3 reasons why you need Plugin Dr. 1. If you're a plugin maker 2. If you're a hardware designer or repair person 3. If you think you are Paul 3rd. and use it for whatever reason to collect data, graphs, and analysis to prove the world your the best If none of these describes you throw it away and use your ears!

[@scottharris7222]

@@kaisersoze9488 I don’t own it. You need a 4th. You are a reviewer and you want to verify or dispute the claims of the developer. That is a legitimate application of the tool. There is a lot of marketing hyperbole out there. Measurement is one tool that reviewers use to help sort through the claims.

[@scottharris7222]

Time to trash your thermometers I guess. Don’t need no stinking ’ Celsius to tell me when I’m cold.

[@risingphoenix1484]

So at the end of the day... the plugin is not what it is advertised. In other words.... buy the hardware if you want the actual hardware sound is doing. or actually know how what the software does and just listen for the sound you want.

[@BorisBarroso]

Thanks, I agree with You, I think over all most of us are artists and not engineers.

[@FoliaSound]

Even if we're engineers, I still believe that PD is totally overused in many cases.

[@FrequencySummoner]

If there is a problem with users who misunderstand analysis tools, we should educate users not reject analysis.

[@QuabmasM]

You were right because youre well trained but I disagree w/ your conclusion that the plugin is harmful or even merely more harmful than trusting your ears. Long rant for those who wish to learn from my pov: Even when it comes to visual truths like shooting a gun & hoping to hit a target, you need more information to know whether or not what youre trusting in is accurate. Per say a guy w/ one lazy eye may overly rely on sight & think hes pointing at his target but when he closes that eye to look w/ his good eye alone, he notices he was actually pointing beside it & wouldve hit something else. Likewise, audio accuracy & proficiency is often greater achieved by NOT overly relying on what youre hearing & how it feels but rather investing more in a visual aid & focusing on what you can mentally conclude especially when feelings can deceive you(like thinking youre just boosting 100hz on a pultec when youre actually boosting 400hz & down as well). Tools like an eq analyzer are as great for beginners as they are for all imperfect people w/ imperfect ears who have human flaws like flawed logic & conflicting emotions that FEEL like something sounds better when in reality, the audio sounds exactly the same but is just 1.5 db louder(something one can visually note quicker as surely as harmonic volume can sound louder but in fact be quiet in dynamic volume). Perfect example of imperfection: a world where men wash hands in public restrooms before touching the dirtiest handles to leave that restroom. They know men who dont wash their hands touch that handle too & if they study the habits of men theyd see most men dont even wash their hands in certain cultures yet despite such facts, men still make dull choices because they lack visual aids such as the ability to see germs via a convenient green glow. Visual aids make learning easier hence why children's books are picture books. This is the same world where people will see signs their spouse is cheating but wont believe it until they see VISUAL evidence of the act. Emotions & their biases often deceive the mind. Many audio only led decisions come from emotional feeling where as visually checked audio choices more often lean towards intellectual knowledge & reasoning. Music that felt right at night might feel wrong in the day. The mind is less biased & benefits more from visual aid than audio alone. Its hard to make audio only mixing decisions w/ your emotional opinion turned off so that potentially misguiding bias is always there often deceiving you if you arent aware of it. So to avoid chasing your tail in the mix & never quite catching it because your are unknowingly undoing balances your previously set, its nice to quickly identify the culprit using a plugin like this...yet even this plugin cant be 100% trusted so its nice to have multiple ones to even contrast it. Besides, so much of truly great mixing is done via mental strategies the educated mind makes while sitting in complete silence or during breaks AWAY from the music. I swear by the proverb that one should learn all the rules of music as to better learn how to break them. Many people still dont know what theyre doing half the time & wouldnt do what theyre doing if they DID know. By relying on visually studying audio I liked, I believe my creativity in mixing lapped many people who've done it longer than me. You have dudes in their early 20s who mix better than some who've done it 50 years all because they broke a mental barrier the old men were told not to DARE cross. We wouldnt even have modern DAWs of today in this home studio era if we all listened to the "old experts" who used to say we can never compete w/ state of the art studios & make industry standard music using plugins. Yet 2 decades later & we have not only proven otherwise but even most studios today arguably focus on working predominately in the box than out(especially for mix recall reasons). So yeah, not relying on visual spectrums etc may be something the older generation taught, but let me assure you everybody who BROKE THAT RULE has leveled up from what they learned unlike those who didnt...especially when it comes to inventing new solutions to compete w/ analog while quickly mixing or mastering multiple songs in the box a day using customized presets for a faster work flow. Having the option of visual information to quickly trust & lean on is not wasting anyone's time. One could just as well say "dont rely on the saturation of analog gear, just use your ears & invent a competitive sound using stock plugins only" lol. Its possible but that doesnt mean analog gear is useless anymore than the conclusion that the visual eq analyzers are. Again, if kids never had picture books, their education would be far slower than those who did. Even the bible uses pictures via allegoric pictures, parables, & metaphors to educate adults. Notice you never hear anyone say "dont look at the meters on your compressor, just rely on what youre hearing". At some point we all must learn that punching a tree w/ a blindfold on like in kung fu films doesnt make you stronger, it just breaks your hand & leaves you less informed than people enabling all their effective senses. Dont musically shoot yourself in the foot trying to look cool...its 2022, break more rules! Modern music is in dire need of evolution & it comes when people trailblaze. Some say eat the fruit & spit out the seeds...I say "havent you heard of the life saving nutrients found in most fruit seeds & the disinformation used to vilify that nutrient? Crunch on a few a day & youll be less prone to develop cancer". But your MD wont tell you that & thus cancer thrives w/o an effective affordable natural solution. Some would say THATS by malicious design not unlike the old studio generation that seemed to misinform us w/ rules & tips that led us to crappy thin mixes that couldnt compete w/ their expensive studios. The lack of saturation options in home studios for over a decade was malicious...then when they came out, most truly didnt sound the same nor all that good when you used more than the least amount you could apply. Yet people TRUSTED in their ears & emotionally were sold via trusting in the brands. However, thanks to people OVER TIME realizing the error in their purchases, Ive noticed many mixers these days use less & less retro compressor emulators apart from subtle amounts in parallel for this very reason & that thanks to those who studied all these issues via hardware vs plugin shootouts like this using their ears, eyes, &.....EQ analyzers. Moral of the story: similar as they may be, you can make orange juice out of tangerines but in order to better FULLY taste the difference in an audio analogy, its wise to RELY both on audio & visual information.

[@MrlegendOr]

Thank you!!

[@hevaldosouza4979]

I totally agree!🎹🎼🙏🏽

[@braindaletube]

what if there's people overusing it but still making "beautiful music" to your standard. let people have their own choice, if things didnt work for you just stay calm.

[@audioprotaro1338]

guy makes really good point.

[@iam_geyed]

I approve this msg. 👌🏾

[@albertorolon137]

100%

[@EnervatedSociety]

Bu bu but you don't understand! It's a doctor in a plugin! 🤪

[@MTEC-Electronics]

100% , PD for the sound engineer and real plug-in ratings is nonsense, we will soon start mixing and mastering only graphs from analyzers? Nothing can replace the experienced ear of the sound engineer. If I hear the plug does what I need, I don't give a shit about the graphs.

[@tayyabamansoor5887]

If you need to know why, then see a video on KZbin as to how your ears can fool you. People have dozen of listening devices and controlling the environment all the time. A plugin does that visually providing utmost ease and u call it BS ! Wow

[@FoliaSound]

When you train your ears, they don't fool you just like that. I'm quite aware of psychoacoustics, it doesn't change my point of view. Cheers!

[@khalilroukoz]

what a clownish to say,eff outta here

[@FoliaSound]

Byeeee! :)

[@viciousblissvideos]

I think you are dead on here. Lot of OCD people who listen to and make music. Reminds me of a time a guy told me he wouldn’t listen to a flac rip of some out of print, expensive cd because the EAC settings were off by a few milliseconds. I asked him if he could hear the difference in milliseconds. Then he felt like maybe he was being too compulsive. I’m guessing a lot of guys get too wrapped up in checking plugin doctor before they get down to work. That’s a problem. Funny you mention Paul Third. I like Paul and have been sort of debating him about this whole ID14 vs Lynx Aurora N thing. I have both. If I had had an Aurora N years ago and hardware like Fusion instead of getting bogged down with plugins, I feel I would have been better off. Paul thinks that starting with hardware and high end conversion isn’t great of an idea. Here’s what I know. A lot of plugins don’t work properly. They have the issues you describe here. If someone starts with the real thing instead of a plugin approximation, then they don’t get into all this compulsive plugin doctor stuff. Sure, they can own a few plugins with hardware, but if hardware and conversion are good, the problems with the plugins are not on your mind so much.

[@FoliaSound]

Very well said, nice point of view, man. Thanks, this is a really valuable comment! I agree with mosty of your remarks, though I think I also missed some point in my vid. I'm seriously thinking about one more vid to make it 110% clear on my side!

[@viciousblissvideos]

@@FoliaSound Another thing about trying hardware is that you save a lot of time by not bothering with so many plugins. Everyone gets so preoccupied with whether plugins can match hardware. They almost always sound thinner and with less bass than hardware. Now I only bother with plugins if they are cheap and also great or if they are a real accomplishment like Atlantis Dual Chamber and Overstayer. I agree with the point you are making. You are essentially telling people to forget Plugin Doctor and to just make music. To try the plugins and see what you like instead of letting Plugin Doctor determine whether you want to try something. Even the best plugins cannot do what good hardware can. What I try to do with Fusion is to add these analog qualities that modern plugins cannot do. So, I no longer really worry about analog this or that with plugins. All I need from plugins is to set things up for Fusion. Paul Third was talking to me about affordability. Well, lots of plugins cost money and a lot of people spend more on plugins in two years than if they bought Fusion or some other hardware with a payment plan. This kind of work is not as cheap to get into as some on KZbin will say it is. I’ve been teaching myself and learning everything I can for years. One of the first things I noticed was that it is not easy to get a smooth and thick analog sound with plugins no matter how much the companies say it is. Nor is it easy to hear things correctly if you can’t treat your room or have to mix on a flawed headphone setup. Even if you can create balanced mixes, that’s no guarantee of success. When I first tried mixing, I had people tell me not to try and be creative. That instead I just had to balance bare bones stems. It’s probably the same type of person that obsesses over Plugin Doctor. This is not a pure analytical job. And so many of these guys just focus on analytics and not creativity. All this “industry standard” and “The pros say this” nonsense. I got into this because as a musician, all the pros I could hire were not creating portfolios that showed what I wanted for my band. Everyone was trying to do the same barebones production style with loudness war mastering. A good example of this style is on a lot of modern Metal records like the newest Megadeth. Compare that with Peace Sells and you see why so many prefer the old albums. These days we are seeing some more creativity again. The last Foxes album with Body Talk. Jake from Blood By Design told me he just used plugins to produce the album and had someone master it. The mastering guy may have added all sorts of tubes and tape and hardware. But that is evidence that the hybrid approach can work really well. Emerge from Drown Again and Optimist by Anathema also have some of the best sound I’ve heard for rock music. There is a role for plugins and then a role for hardware, and I think if someone understands that then they won’t worry so much about plugin Doctor.

[@TeslaOsiris]

The Dan Worrall fan cult will be rather cross with you speaking ill of their Arc of the Covenant, Plugin Doctor.

[@jamescuttsmusicjcm5013]

lol. as engineers we use plugin doctor for analysis. it is objectively correct. you are not supposed to be using plugin doctor for composing.

[@FoliaSound]

Hey, James, I replied to your comment, please take a look :) I totally didn't mean any composing, I meant mixing and mastering as a part of music making process. I wasn't too precise describing it in the vid maybe, sorry for that!

[@jamescuttsmusicjcm5013]

​@@FoliaSound What numpty would be using Plugin Doctor to mix / master? That would be a new one on me. As I said previously, it is for analysis only. As a developer all I can say is that it is a brilliant piece of software, but as great as it is I have never once reached for it to mix or master a track. Lol! It is also great for catching the snake oil before it takes hold. For example, you can have aliasing come out of your eyeballs, and that is fine as long as you do not try to claim that your plugin is emulating analogue behaviour. You can have completely linear processing in your plugin... so long as you do not claim (like a certain particular group) that your plugin models an analogue EQ. People simply cannot argue with Plugin Doctor. It is an objective analysis tool that so long as it is used correctly, is 100% accurate. That is why people use it.

[@FoliaSound]

@James Cutts Music [JCM] , James, I believe your approach is absolutely legit, but I don't think you're getting me right. I never said that Plugin Doc is for composing, I never said it's for mastering and mixing: IT TAKES YOU AWAY FROM THEM, because instead of simply using your hardware or software tools to create, you start overanalyzing them :) This is what I solely meant and expressed in video. Also, I never said that Plugin Doc isn't a good tool. I think it's marvelous for many reasons and yes, it can detect software bullshit spot on. Just in case of my particular Sa2arate 2 vid there was absolutely no need for running it, as some people suggested, because I could clearly hear that the plugin was a quality one. Despite this, some people insisted that I should have included the Plugin Doc run in my Sa2rate 2 review and I didn't agree with that. Thus I made this video and made my point, which I still find valid: Plugin Doctor makes you sometimes overanalyze tools you have in the studio instead of simply using them and listening to what's going on. Plugin Doc should be engaged when something is clearly wrong with the equipment or the software and then - yes, it's priceless. So, I think we somehow even agree on a couple of things, I was just talking about something else and I believe you somehow misunderstood my point. Hope it's clearer on my side now, cheers!

[@jamescuttsmusicjcm5013]

@@FoliaSound I only just found your channel so I haven't seen that particular video, but from what I gathered based on what you said in the video the problem might be that you did a comparison between the plugin and the hardware and didn't include any analysis to compare them in depth. People these days like to see how it compares at a technical level in those kinds of videos. Raising of the bar if you will. That doesn't mean that you HAVE to accommodate that outlook though. It is just that there is so much marketing garbage around these days that people want to see the working out as it were to know that they are not being conned. A bit like with the answers in a maths paper. Lol. However, I have never heard of Sa2rate - the hardware or the software and so I have no opinion on either at this point. I will check your other video out though.

[@jamesrutherford]

[@johnnyvegas2015]

I was always under the impression that we were supposed to our ears not our eyes while making music.

[@FoliaSound]

Me too, but there is a growing number of people thinking the opposite, I'm afraid, and I'm trying to adress them in my vid :)

[@kalidesu]

"supposed to" even that is imposing rules on an an artist, out senses do overlap. When I paint, I also use touch.

[@vroteg]

If it’s dangerous and harmless use a helmet and protective gloves while using plugin doctor and you will be ok!

[@vroteg]

I’m sorry. Couldn’t watch past the half of it as tests are actually show you there are big differences between in plugin and hardware. And I’m not in favour of one or another, they just different. Also calling plugin that help you understand how plugin works “harmful” is an overstatement. Many users who want to know what happening inside the signal chain would agree. Also the slight remark the overtone below 100hz is virtually unhearable… it well may be unhearable but it will eat your headroom like there is no tomorrow when you use few of this plugins…

[@FoliaSound]

Hey, Siskin! I got your concerns, I made my point in other comments and I actually meant something else. I agree with you, I seriously was trying to express a different kind of a concern. I didn't succeed fully. Cheers!