Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1: PIN-to-PAP Distance

Part 1 of 3: The effect of the PIN-to-PAP distance on ball motion in Storm'sPin Buffer Layout System.
You can find the article about the PIN to PAP here.
Storm News : news.stormbowling.com/2017/05/...

[@dermetzger]

This video is extremely well done, informative, and concise. With these graphics and side by side comparison, it made understanding the entire concept of pin layouts (something that I'd always been curious about) very simple, straightforward, and easy. Wish other companies would do the same with their different cores. Thank you.

[@brianmontoya3788]

Really nice to see a visual representation of PIN to PAP. Stoked to see the next part.

[@XxDEMPOxX]

Very detailed and informative. Thank you for this. Can't wait for the next parts.

[@radicalfury710]

Love it ! The visuals made me understand even more of what I already know. Thanks

[@SacredSecret11]

Thank Mr. Hoskins, I appreciate you for helping me ovastand the science of bowling ball layouts

[@matthewpriestley7202]

Storm leading the way, thanks for your hard work

[@brandongoodman2619]

i know recovery ball age

[@dawmlw]

Thank you Alex! I'm looking forward to the next two videos.

[@lemmonadejuice3867]

Thanks. This helped me alot understand diff. layouts and how they can affect the ball motion as it goes down the lane.

[@coatero85]

This is great information. I just purchased a HyRoad Nano and Pearl. This helps a lot.Thanks! #StormNation

[@rickdavis8410]

Hyroad is symmetric so this video doesn’t apply

[@coatero85]

@@rickdavis8410 Yes it does. And the Phase II in the video is Symmetrical as well.

[@MrRicoBay]

Very helpful information. Thank you. Hoping to see the other 2 videos soon.

[@rieker1]

Excellent video and I'm looking forward to the next two parts. While I already understand the basics of what is being discussed the graphics display and explanation really helped me understand these concepts even better. This will be very helpful when laying out equipment in the future. #StormNation

[@LukeRosdahl]

Next level video, GREAT job!

[@thomaspoor8849]

This comment is ancient but maybe you know. Why does the six inch pin to pap hook more down land than the 1.5 inch pin pap. I was under the understanding that differential had a parabolic relationship with pin to pap distance but by that reasoning the 1.5 and 6 inch pin should have the same diff and very similar ball reaction. Does pap to pin also effect RG. I work in a pro shop and am having a small debate with another worker in the shop about the effects of longer pins compared to shorter pins….

[@drwisdom1]

Very good technical presentation with good graphics and video.

[@ZhouSensor_ZXZ]

forward to next part! very good video to understand the layout system

[@duffluv22]

First knowledge worthy video.

[@metinbaydere]

first class job. keep it up guys.

[@matthewcalabresi504]

Worth it just for the ability to watch Alex's release in slo-mo

[@spencergerhardt7424]

This is the video I've been looking for

[@santanah.6897]

Thank you so much for this information! Awesome

[@fd4292]

Very cool and informative

[@gabrielhuntington]

Thanks for the information!!

[@NickBowls220]

Great video but at times the music was slightly loud, drowning out Alex.

[@alfa-x6650]

this video let me know more about PIN to PAP layout good video

[@adrianramirez3599]

Very well explained video, ty! Maybe do this same video but showing the difference between drilling the finger holes left, middle, and right next to each other.

[@Jaowparokoba]

Nice Videos!

[@Spamski]

Great Video!!! Thanks!!

[@bigbluezo6]

that is a great video

[@kp5184]

Thank you for the very informative video. I would really appreciate if you could clarify for me a few things. I am slow speed bowler (12-13), stroker. Med. Revs. and 13lb ball. So, based on your explanation, 6" pin to PAP seems to be a better choice for me. When I select a bowling ball, does it matter what pin to cg distance it has and what is a top weight? Also, does it make any difference for the pin to pap placement whether ball is semetrical or asymmetrical, polished or solid reactive? I would really appreciate your advice!

[@ItzMe3224]

When do you plan on having the other two videos out?

[@hamboner2]

OK, never mind, just disregard my previous post. I get it now. Had to think about it for a while, but I finally get it. Man, sometimes, I can be DENSE! 😔

[@PendragonDaGreat]

Great video, one change I would have made is to make the second marker a contrasting color (like green) to make it even more obvious which is the first and which is the second marker.

[@DonaldDump2024]

Question: Can anyone explain the difference between a ball’s hook potential and ball’s performance? I basically understand the effect of ball motion from pin placement, surface composition and finish, but I’ve seen balls with much more hook potential cost much less than balls balls termed “high performance”. This is confusing. What does ball performance mean then if not hook potential?

[@ShahabSheikhzadeh]

Is there software that will show and simulate what various balls have in them for a given brand? I know Ebonite has (or had?) Powerhouse software, but it seems to be a little hard to find and is more for showing and simulating what a ball will do down the lane. Fantastic video. Thank you! :)

[@jeffreygonzales4387]

I just ordered the Astro physix and soon to get the phaze 3, and I only bowl with 2 fingers as I spin the ball down the lane tweener/ stroker style and I like my ball to have strong hook in the back end of the lane, what layout do you think would be best for me

[@hysterheister0947]

How should I layout my bowling ball with no thumb hole or balance hole to meet the new specifications?

[@grrriddle9570]

Very cool

[@webslinger67]

When are the next 2 parts coming out?

[@flippperboy]

I thought the psa on symmetrical does not matter because there is no psa to begin with. I wish they used a asymmetrical instead

[@jordanjewboy1970]

just a idea but use different colors markers so the transition between the two is more clear

[@tagemandbagem9113]

What would you need for a small subtle hook?

[@andresmorales6357]

Hey the pin..to ...pap is great.. but what is the layout.. 70x4:5x50...Andy

[@DGV_Tips]

Awesome graphics and video...from a recent Jayhawk graduate

[@byronfranek2706]

Since the PSA ends up in or near the thumbhole after drilling symms, the distance from the pin to the thumbhole should be controlled in order to maintain a more consistent int diff value. There are too many uncontrolled variables in this comparison IMO.

[@freighttrain1695]

Ask Mo Pinel about Storm's pin to PAP ball motion. That would be a fun conversation.

[@quanlam6318]

I am beginner. Lefty bowler. I having Hustle. The bowling speeding is about 11.2 mph to 12.5 mph. Please give me a recommendation layout. Thank you!

[@thomaspoor8849]

Would the effects change or be more complicated on an asymmetric bowling ball.....I feel like for some reason it’s going to be different

[@9268]

Yoinkitydoinkity it will and I hope they make an asymmetric video to clarify to folks.

[@brandonsmith1768]

I didn’t know anything about this. Does this apply to other balls or only Storm balls?

[@cameronmorgan0203]

I love the Phaze 2!!!!

[@kratosisatreehugger8140]

Cameron Morgan I have one and I’m not a big fan lol, I’ve always wanted one and my buddy was like here I found one. I drilled it up and it’s the least continuous ball in my arsenal... great on dry lanes tho

[@cameronmorgan0203]

Kratosisatreehugger how do you have it drilled and do you have some uploaded videos on your KZbin account cause I want to see how you throw the ball

[@kratosisatreehugger8140]

Cameron Morgan I actually do have a few videos of me bowling. And it’s drilled pin below the bridge with a inch and a half pin

[@kratosisatreehugger8140]

Cameron Morgan it was recorded on my phone tho so the quality is garbage... I unfortunately don’t have the luxury of having a nice camera and a tri pod lol

[@cameronmorgan0203]

Kratosisatreehugger that's fine whenever you get a chance upload it on your KZbin page so I can see how you throw the ball.

[@flippperboy]

Which is more important, pin to PAP, psa to PAP, or pin buffer?

[@rousefire]

I'm a senior with wrist problems and slow ball speed 13 to 15 mph playing on old wood lanes . I need a straighter ball .

[@RAM_845]

I've recently purchased your Storm Phaze 2 Reactive Solid ball...haven't received it yet. I'm a straight bowler and what layout you recommend for my style?

[@9268]

Asymmetric video coming?

[@thomaspoor8849]

Hello again, why does the 6 inch pin hook more down lane than the 1.5 inch. I NEED TO KNOW!! I thought there was a parabolic relationship between differential and pin to pap distance with 3 3/8 inch at the vertex of the parabola. By this reasoning shouldn’t the 6 and 1.5 be the same….. does pin placement also effect radius of gyration?

[@baze3SC]

Yes. The pin marks the core's longest axis. If you choose zero pin-to-pap distance it means that the core will be rolling horizontally around its longest axis. The mass will be distributed within short distance of this axis (relatively speaking). However, if you pick 6" (which is basically 90 degrees) the core will be rolling vertically and its RG is going to be different because there's more mass at the outer edge. Because of that the ball will be "unwilling" to change direction, just like a bicycle wheel. It will roll straighter through the front part of the lane and conserve more energy for the hook.

[@snide3]

What do you mean by speed dominate? What is the threshold for speed dominate players? I throw anywhere between 14 to 16 MPH, dependent what the shot calls for. Would I be considered a speed dominate player? Sorry, I have 2 separate questions. Great video!

[@jamesm8360]

Speed dominate means you throw the ball faster than your rev rate. Ball goes down the lane long and starts up later down lane , ball could go behind headpin and or deflect of of head pin because of your speed. A rev dominate player has trouble getting there ball down the lane as it hooks earlier and forces them to move further into more oil. A matched rev to speed player has proper speed for conditions as ball and revs match and ball goes down the lane and hooks at correct time to flush strike the pocket. Moves are easier with a matched rev to speed player. Hope this helps some.

[@matthewpriestley7202]

Do the conclusions apply to Asymmetric balls as well ?

[@Monk-Amani.]

Matthew Priestley : Yes it does. Pin > PAP.

[@kylewagner6607]

Yes. And part two covers psa to pap for asym balls

[@crio2366]

NO it does NOT! Longer pins in asym's don't reduce flare as much as sym's. do! AND all these balls have different VAL angles & Drill angles therefore although the other 2 measurements are held constant they aren't in effect the same core orientation as this would have you believe. The balls will roll differently because the other 2 measurements { buffer & psa -pap} are in different locations, especially the psa on a sym.

[@rickdavis8410]

What is ground zero 9r the starting point for finding the PAP?

[@tommytexter4054]

I have a question. In order to find PAP, you need to throw the ball and get a oil ring first. But to throw the ball, you have to drill it first. However, didn't you need to know where PAP is before you drill a ball??? I am newbie to bowling. Isn't this a chicken and egg problem? Or you need to "waste" your ball to know you PAP? Does PAP differ from ball to ball? (If so, you will need to buy 2 balls to know the PAP???) or style to style (two hand vs one hand)?

[@jamesm8360]

Good question. If you bowl already you can get a pap off of an existing ball before drilling new equiptment. However if your a new bowler it can happen 2 ways. 1.....Being a new bowler your learning the game basics first and therfore your pro shop will drill your ball with known drillings that work while your learning and profecting your release......Or. your first ball will be a spare ball drilled which you will throw and you can get your pap off of it before you drill your strike ball.

[@alsheps300]

Generally a brand new bowler technically hasn’t established their PAP yet. You would normally drill a generic layout of a first ball, until the bowler has some experience then you would measure their PAP once they’ve established their technique.

[@rooklv]

Where's the other two parts? How you gonna drop this and then stop? HOW YOU GONNA JUST LEAVE ME THIRSTY LIKE THIS?

[@edhouse1951]

been away from bowling over12 years, considering getting back into the sport, anyone know of a good pro shop in the bay area california who has good knowledge in laying out a ball

[@nelsonpangilinan6891]

Why oil track runs thru my middle finger and thumbhole?

[@TenthFrameStrike]

How about Cg position?

[@jomaavila9720]

My brain hurts Edit: 76 likes?!?!! Thanks guys!

[@flinch622]

It's the music: custom selected by some chicken plucker. Audio needs remastering...

[@joeykretz7461]

This video has soooo much info. To put it in simpler terms, the ball is like a figure skater going to do any type of spinning jump. The skater starts with their arms spread wide into the jump, then tucks them in while in the air to speed up their rotational speed. The same concept applies to these balls. The ball may not have arms but it does have a weight block meaning that the majority of the weight can become closer or further from the center of rotation when it spins on different axis. There’s so much different garbage you can do to change the reaction of a ball, the biggest thing being pin to PAP distance. The longest pin to PAP distance in this video is like having the ball start with its arms spread the widest when starting the jump, and it doesn’t “tuck its arms in” until just before it hits the pins. The shorter pin to PAP distances don’t spread the ball’s arms out as much upon release and the ball slowly brings its arms inward the whole way down the lane instead of all at once right at the end. These two different motions can be used to a bowler’s advantage to impact the predictability of a ball or its carry percentage.

[@1398go]

Joey Kretz So which of the little piggies do you want? The one with 1 1/2 ball to PAP? Thanks for your message.

[@shawnwade4062]

Wheres part 2 and 3?

[@benrynes289]

Perhaps could’ve done an Asym ball too

[@Monk-Amani.]

Ben Rynes : Pin > PAP (positive axis point)

[@kylewagner6607]

Part two dingus

[@benrynes289]

Kyle Wagner Part 2 covers PSA to PAP on Asymmetric balls, not Pin to PAP on asymmetric balls

[@kylewagner6607]

@@benrynes289 its the same. You essentially have two pins with an asym

[@nordattack]

Why didn't they use two different colors for the markers? Duh.

[@amoschew7905]

Hi im not too sure what Flaring of a bowing ball means. can anyone explain it to me?

[@TDarKL]

Flaring is the amount of "hook" potential the ball has. The PAP (aka the drilling or layout) is a precise tool that can dictate ball motion. Flare and motion are confused normally and sometimes can be used in the same sentence, but think of flare as "potential" and motion as what the ball ACTUALLY does when you throw it. An example would be a Storm Pitch Black (low "flare" urethane) compared to a Storm Sure Lock (high "flare" solid reactive resin). Both balls can create a motion, but the flare potential in the Sure Lock is higher due to it having an asymmetrical core (creates more force at the backend, stronger motion) and the amount of friction it has on the lane (Solid Reactive Resin ball, grips sooner, hooks faster) compared to the Pitch Black (hardly any core, and urethane, will hardly read the lane at all depending on condition of lane, same as Sure Lock). What this ultimately means is that if you throw both the same, you will see more "hook" or "flare" from the Solid bowling ball (Sure Lock, in this example) compared to the Pitch Black. Sorry for the wall of text, this can be an extremely confusing topic. Hope this helped!

[@amoschew7905]

Ok i got it! Thanks alot :)

[@gouthammeruva]

How would you know your PAP without throwing the ball at least once? How would you throw the ball without having the ball already drilled? Isn't there a chicken-egg paradigm here?

[@Cartybowls]

You can find your PAP on previously drilled and thrown bowling balls. The change in PAP from ball to ball is extremely negligible.

[@brandonferris8934]

You're correct - you have to throw an existing ball to measure your PAP. It's easiest with a sanded, solid colored ball. You have to throw a shot with your normal release (on a house shot, throw it through the heaviest oil in the middle part of the lane), trace the first oil ring, then find and mark the PAP using a tool called an 'armadillo.' If you have a Pro Sect, you can also measure the diameter of that first oil ring to determine your axis tilt, which should also be factored into the choice of layout.

[@jjohn8989]

Would have been easier to follow along if the two makers were different colors

[@TonysMusic1974]

I find this video informative, but the music in the background is distracting and annoying. Maybe it's too high in the audio mix.

[@chihfeng7943]

My English is not very good.But I can let the people in proshop to see this video.Number three is my type.

[@lolakirschner9090]

A straight bar

[@lolakirschner9090]

First time Bowlin straight ball those trees that from the

[@ultimatewerewolve9508]

Ohhh mb I thought the video said pin buffet 😅 banger video idea tho

[@davidpena63]

It is not zero axis rotation.

[@susanagreen2021]

Has anyone tried a 6 inch pin?

[@jamesm8360]

I Did. 6 inch Ball was clean through the heads, but backend for me was sharp. I tried a pin on my pap, ball was smooth through heads and heavy roll on backend, shot 300 first game of summer league with it. For me 6 inch was long and strong.......pin on pap was smooth arc to controlable backend for me.

[@brandongoodman2619]

build a lay out

[@KrustyKlown66]

Could they have made the music any louder or more annoying? Jeez guys. Just talk about the topic and dispense with the dance party music.

[@freighttrain1695]

Tell Storm to adopt Mo Pinel's drilling techniques and they would corner the market.

[@brandongoodman2619]

nothing easy i build one its how mechine is

[@brandongoodman2619]

i recovery bowling balls

[@denmanfite3156]

Why are the subtitles in Korean? Hahah

[@user-mm2bn2gj1o]

Japanese subtitles

[@hamboner2]

The balls are drilled for a right handed person, and thrown by one as well, yet the animation shows the pin in a left handed orientation as it travels down the lane?

[@kylewagner6607]

hamboner2 dont know what you're watching lol

[@hamboner2]

Kyle Wagner Evidently not. Can’t get my mind wrapped around it because the animation on the short pin to pap ball just looks way to far around for it to look “right” to me, like it’s a straight up the back, no axis rotation release. The 6 inch pin to pap looks much more correct. Guess I’m just envisioning it from a skewed perspective for me. 🤓

[@NPMystikal]

The video is correct...take your right hand and place it on the ball, your pap will be to your right. Keep your hand on the ball and turn it over as if you were rolling it. After release, the pap would be on the left as well as the 2 inch marker for visual purposes...

[@benlaser6417]

The company should make a discord server! (cough id be willing to help make a bot or something cough)

[@freighttrain1695]

Since Storm doesn't believe in Mo Pinel's dual angle it's no wonder why Parker Bohn is using Radical equipment on occasion.

[@882828jc]

Right , everyone who follow the layout could be a champ. I am no fool, They just want to check my brain and hurt my wallet. That is the marketing.Only fool would play their game.

[@freighttrain1695]

Guess what Storm? Continuation off the pin deck.Radical vs. Storm. Look at where Storm exist the pin deck vs Radical. Storm deflects more than Radical. Storm might want to get into the business of continuation. I think Storm might want to invest in Radical stock when it comes to ball reaction.

[@stormbowling]

Lane Quenemoen Thank you for your opinion. We’ll take it into consideration.

[@hwwvinyl]

lol. i think it's more down to speed and entry angle not brand. you can have just as many flat 10s/7s, 8-10s or 7-9s, 5s, 5-7 and 5-10s with a radical ball as any other brand.

[@ragnarthered6459]

Doesnt hold a candle to Mo Pinel though.

[@JamesSmith-vl8ps]

is it possible for this guy to say one word without using his hands? lol smh

[@jamesmatheson4746]

Storm , Balls for cheaters

[@thetrain3302]

See this JR? Layouts do make a difference