Street Fighter's Mythical Unwinnable Matchup

[@TheoryFighter]

The bounty - twitter.com/TheoryFighter/status/1388419422210121728

[@Comboman70]

SNES version.

[@LIONTAMER3D]

The opening spd has certain limitations, but it works on EVERY version of World Warrior AND Champion Edition (where I became proficient with it): 1) Frame-perfect=there's no "window" for it, there's exactly 1 frame where it's possible; the first frame where the letters "FIGHT" disappear. Meaning your input must be completed on that frame & no other 2) certain characters are NEVER in range for opening spd: dictator, claw, and dahlsim...anyone else can be reliably spd'd off the bat. Those characters CAN be opening spd'd IF they hit a button that extends their hit boxes on that same opening frame while Zangief simultaneously completes his spd input on that same frame (i.e. if any of them start off sliding on the first frame), but under no other circumstances. Any other character can be opening spd'd even if they do nothing, or try to walk or jump back.

[@LIONTAMER3D]

@@Comboman70 correct, but only the snes version of World Warrior, not Hyper Fighting

[@danielwappner1035]

@@LIONTAMER3D Honestly, that doesn't sound too believable. Why just that frame? Got any footage?

[@6Diego1Diego9]

@@LIONTAMER3D is it possible to SPD in one frame by hand?

[@MrBroken030]

"Unwinnable matchups" could be a format for a mini series of its own! Lookin at really bad matchups and evaluating why they are so one sided would be funny and interesting :D

[@jasonjean5333]

Seconded

[@Artersa]

Yeah itd be cool

[@violetbrown6712]

Thirded

[@ningenslayer6306]

Quadrupled

[@danb1809]

Quintupled

[@wads80z]

Whats weird, is that Honda is one of Gief's toughest matches in most variants of SF2. Especially if Honda gets a life lead.

[@Ryusuta]

Same here!

[@dyldragon1]

The Honda matchup Flowchart: Opponent has a projectile --> Bad Matchup Opponent doesn't have a projectile --> Good Matchup

[@Bager_RBN]

Honda-Gief is one of the most lopsided matchups in ST, arguably _the_ most lopsided one that doesn't involve Akuma, to my knowledge. s.LP just invalidates Gief's entire movelist.

[@hdez.diMayo]

I hate E. Honda

[@MinogamiMakoto]

@@micahlambert5726 that's the point, it's a myth, and it's contradictory

[@taylorbee4010]

POV: You're Chun-Li in Super Turbo and Fei Long has you in the corner.

[@randomweeaboo]

What is the setup against Chun?

[@AgelessObsession]

​@@randomweeaboo cl.HP into Chicken Wing combos into itself as a blockstring several times in the corner against Chun Li, and her reversals are terrible. She wins the matchup as long as it's midscreen, but if Fei gets her in the corner it's really hard to get back out.

[@rzzz5946]

@@AgelessObsession it's not a true blockstring or no one could escape, reversal or not. Someone tried this on me in warmup for a tourney. But Chun has a 0f air throw. Problem solved.

[@Cardboxx]

@@rzzz5946 If they do it properly, it's really hard to escape, because for any of your option(jump/reversal tensho) you have to stand up for at least one frame before getting your invincible move out, so ou either get clipped, or forced into stand block and he can go for another loop. One solution is to kara cancel cr.jab into tensho, so you "skip" the standing frame. It's still hard but at least you can escape it.

[@smokeg1177]

Don’t jump I learned my lesson

[@bigbangbot-SuperSqank]

For those of you who don’t know, it was discovered that this 10-0 MU did exist in an SNES beta version of the game (I remember seeing it on Twitter but I do not remember where to find footage of this matchup in that version).

[@aesthetichistory9868]

Do you have any info on this? I wanna play this rom lol

[@dianauwu1312]

Proof? I want to know.

[@patomaletero]

I remember that in the SNES version it was possible to spd balrog beginning the match, but that trick only worked with bosses, I have no luck with the first opponents

[@InfernosReaper]

@@dianauwu1312 Pretty sure that's just a way to try to justify a rumor because no one can test this since no one has the *beta* version, which makes me wonder how anyone would even have known about it being specifically the beta now, but not back then

[@EnjoySackLunch]

Huh??

[@RiskyBiscuit]

To me it sounds like the kind of thing that was lost in the details. That walk up forward honda does or even a short walk forward from geif is all that's required to be in range for the throw. I think it was a lot of "you can get the throw basically at the beginning of the match bro" that turned into "i remember getting thrown by geif at the beginning of a match".

[@jamesknapp64]

That seems like a very possible sequence of events. A Honda was walking up and got grabbed at 99. Story of "I walked up and was grabbed at 99" became "could be grabbed at the start" and with patches is slowly morphed into what we have today

[@raymxslappedyall3660]

I've never noticed how "veiny" the vs is between the fighters name is

[@walterreedjr6762]

I just been that too

[@dmdeign7116]

Oh man, I didn't need that pointed out to me lmao

[@esqueue]

lol

[@gansmith]

The round start SPD does exist, but there is a requirement to it: First, you must defeat Sheng Lon--

[@MrBroken030]

hahahaah :D

[@lancelance4582]

Haha

[@mackchop3274]

So you must defeat Shen long for E. Honda to NOT have a chance? Sounds legit.

[@underplague6344]

A matchup so vile the game version it was in was redacted from history. That would make a really funny creepypasta tbh. "Zangief beats E. Honda so hard he locks away the SF2 beta"

[@huevonesunltd]

This is basically the Mandela effect of fighting games

[@MrBroken030]

Could be right? I thought of that too, this could be a Bernstein Bear situation :D

[@huevonesunltd]

@@MrBroken030 You mean berenstain bears

[@MrBroken030]

@@huevonesunltd exactly :D

[@LIONTAMER3D]

"Bernstein. Mel Bernstein. Chief detective, narcotics." -Antonio Montana

[@TheGrayton2000]

@@LIONTAMER3D foreskin fore

[@happycamperds9917]

I thought about the matchups in Super Turbo that are simply depicted as “1” for like Zangief vs Akuma.

[@Larry]

It's the whole "Animal Farm" debate again, the ol' "yes it does exist, but the proof is in something always unobtainable". When the beta is revealed and it's shown not to be the case, it'll then be moved to a rumour "oh it was a capcom tester who said so in the Alpha version" Etc. And be honest, how many people not only played the beta, but were also good enough in that short space of time before it was updated to not only discover the error, but also pull it off.

[@Lovuschka]

Or only Todd Rogers did it by starting the game in second gear.

[@theotherjared9824]

It's a textbook appeal to ignorance. There is no proof for it ever existing, but there is also no proof against it ever existing either. People are using that flimsy technicality as their whole argument.

[@mafiousbj]

@@charleswebb1674 if we are honest a video capturing just the screen is little evidence. Could very well be an altered ROM. And people say they saw this in arcades, yet the ROM in question is a Beta SNES which no common person would have had access back then. Reminds me of Billy Mitchell's supposed world records at Donkey Kong ^^

[@abaddononion]

@@Lovuschka Underrated comment.

[@SolidSonicTH]

Basically how conspiracy theories operate. "THE GOVERNMENT IS TOTALLY MANIPULATING THE TRUTH." "Okay, can you prove that?" "I COULD IF THEY WEREN'T COVERING IT UP." >:|

[@Grummsh00]

I recall the early SF2 versions having some odd balancing choices. I used to main Blanka. If Blanka's rolling attack met E. Honda's super zutsuki it would one-shot Blanka. Literally 100 health to zero. Not fun, although I think it was fixed later.

[@usagijojo]

Yeah, that was an accidental design oversight. Initially they were going to have "critical hurtboxes" where if you hit the right spots or hit certain moves, you'd deal extra damage, but then after Capcom changed their minds and decided against the feature, they still forgot to remove it from Blanka's rolling attack. It was left in by mistake.

[@dethlady0]

@@usagijojo IIRC correctly, a certain frame of Ryu's dizzy animation had a similar oversight. It was mentioned in a tweet by one of the original game designers.

[@Ramsey276one]

NECK FRACTURE- *FATAL* XD

[@in_vas_por8810]

It's not a bad idea and I think many fighting games do have it, just not to that extent. It's basically a crit and it kinda makes sense to take more damage when you're not blocking or in the middle of an action.

[@piratesephiroth]

@@usagijojo I think Dictator's Psycho Crusher and Claw's Flying Barcelona Attack also had weak hurtboxes in World Warrior. But they're unplayable bosses so that might have been intentional.

[@oklimbo]

It'd be funny if there was a move Honda can do that immediately extend his hurtbox forward in a way that lets the SPD reach him and whoever first saw this was just a masher lmao

[@thechugg4372]

I think that might be it, someone mashing, hundred slaps comes out, gets instant grabbed, become legend.

[@danielwappner1035]

Pretty sure that's it tbh

[@Felipera_]

exactly my thoughts. knowing old school honda noobs, they were probably mashing punches.

[@ShoRyuBarbie]

I haven't played WW in ages, but I'm pretty sure HHS didn't move forward yet.

[@naotecurto]

Just posted the same idea. Should have scrolled down to your comment. Up voted

[@popixel]

From what I understand, when SF2 was in beta (location) testing they had found that Zangief was winning absurd amounts of games time after time. It’s possible that it, as you said, was in the beta that has not been publically released.

[@Emezie]

Longshot and I'm sure you already tried this...but is it possible for Gief to walk forward slightly and then SPD at a position and timing such that Honda can't jump out? I know SPD has instant startup and jump preframes can be thrown in SF2...so maybe? Probably not, though...

[@TheoryFighter]

Unfortunately not, honda can jump or HHS (as SPD doesn't reach). The closest we got was using the proximity guard on f.MK to trap him in place but that still has counters.

[@soggybread4583]

@@dantedeloden that's terrifying

[@dantedeloden]

@@soggybread4583 i pick zangief.

[@DaDoc540]

If this was possible, then "[STREET FIGHTER] meets [PORKCHOP 'n FLATSCREEN]!" would have ended-and started-very differently…

[@SMTDDR]

@@dantedeloden ooooh wow

[@Hotobu]

Wasn't there a version of Champion Edition where Zangief couldn't duck under Sagat's high tiger shot, and he couldn't jump over it? That's a 10-0 if so.

[@LucasHpm]

What about Lariat

[@Hotobu]

@@LucasHpm believe it only had midsection invulnerability.

[@lifeonleo1074]

@@Hotobu you are right lairat had only midsection invisibility, Sagats high tiger would hit gif on his head.

[@LIONTAMER3D]

It's was generally impossible for Zangief to get past tiger shot spam

[@ranhaines2012]

It was his World Warrior version. Against Sagat, you would have to jump at him as soon as the round starts.

[@WHIPLASHVideosTBT]

This yt channel is rapidly becoming one of the most interesting i'm subbed to. Auto watch tier.

[@Jazerus]

The SF2 devs have said in interviews a few times that one of the biggest changes they made after the first location test was a major Zangief nerf because somebody just bodied everybody who challenged him with Zangief. They overnerfed him which is why Zangief's hitboxes in WW are pretty bad. I find it hard to believe that this was the source of the rumor though - SPD is a really rough move to execute for a new player, would the first guy to ever play as Zangief, before anyone on the planet was "good" at fighting games, really have figured out such a memorable exploit with it, and then talked about it enough for people to remember? I don't think we'll be seeing this board dumped any time soon though - I very much doubt that it still exists.

[@mydemon]

Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@overkill1473]

Yoshiki Okamoto said there was a japanese location test player racking up a 60+ winning streak with Zangief in the beta of WW. He did not go into detail, but its on his youtube channel. I always thought the same. Like how can somebody be this dominant in a game that hasn't even come out yet.

[@hariman7727]

The most likely possibility, in my view, would be that someone just did not have the presence of mind to do something other than walk forward as E. Honda. It was most likely someone Young, as well as someone who had Honda as their favorite character and would walk forward against all the other enemies while almost never going up against zangief.

[@JackgarPrime]

World Warrior was some crazy, wonky stuff. The legendary "handcuffs" are a perfect example.

[@PrecludeLP]

I hope someone comes for that £100. This is pretty interesting. Great work so far trying to track it down.

[@gizaha]

Most likely someone will patch the rom with fake date and hack the honda hurtbox in order to work. That's what happens when you pay.

[@Bladieblah]

@@gizaha Just ask them for the version and let a TAS'er verify it or let a bunch of other people try to replicate it on that version. If only that one person can do that on that version, that is reason to doubt it's legitimacy. If they really want to prove it they can give additional proof

[@gizaha]

@@Bladieblah Me why? I don't care, i just told the dangers.

[@Bladieblah]

@@gizaha It's called reacting to someone, you said it could be cheated so I reacted to that with solutions. When you make statements you will find that this happens more often than you'd think

[@gizaha]

@@Bladieblah Read again what you said in the first comment. I said that someone would patch the rom with fake date in order to claim that this is a beta rom that only he has. Thus your second comment is not valid.

[@NotTheWheel]

I never knew arcade machines had balancing patch chips... This changed my perspective on a few things.

[@joshthefunkdoc]

There's a lot of hidden history there. With Tekken 2, for example, the first version had a very doable infinite for Bruce (any launch into looping b+4,3 over and over); one of the original top Tekken players in the US (tomhilfiger) talked about Bruce being banned in Korean arcades during this time! This was removed in their next revision, so it's not widely known anymore.

[@tinkerer3399]

Yeah, it always sounded like a myth to me. The distance is just too great, either the fighters would have to be closer together (which I haven't seen) or Zangeifs hit box would have to be TRULY monstrous (and that would be more memorable than the 10-0). That leaves glitches which is possible but seems odd. I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible but my gut has always steered me towards it being false.

[@charleswebb1674]

Apparently not: twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@tinkerer3399]

@@charleswebb1674 Yep, although to be fair I was basing my judgement off it being a version of an arcade machine since those are actually played by the public. With it being a SNES beta my only guess is that the rumor started in the early days of emulation.

[@SubduedRadical]

@@charleswebb1674 Oh wow!

[@feliciavale4279]

That is some melee Marth-tier grab range

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Exactly lol

[@possumverde]

I'm pretty sure the myth has it's origins in "casual" play. A lot of young/casual players were aggressive and had a tendency to move forward as soon as they had control. If both did so on the first few frames in a Hondo/Zangeif matchup, the range would be right to start the combo. Over time, people remembered it as a completely lopsided match up to be avoided but forgot that forward movement was needed from both players for it to lead to the lock.

[@austinreed7343]

Also, Honda is a CHARGE character, he has to move backwards.

[@michiganjack1337]

So if you do a SPD with Fierce on both sticks at the same time during the 1st round start, Gief will then transform into Hagger from Final Fight. But first you must defeat Sheng Long.

[@ultimateman55]

Ah yes. I remember hearing about this back in 1992 on the playground in 4th grade.

[@ErwalDeeas]

My uncle who worked at Nintendo told me about it.

[@michaelbelmont5305]

Shit bro that's cool but it ain't got shit on what dudes uncle at Nintendo told me?...he said after you beat S.L?....if you play mortal Kombat and make it to Shang TSUNG?...terry bogard be ones playable on both games

[@misterguru5135]

I just saw this video today - and YES! YES it was real!! We used to witness it in the arcade all the time - The thing is .... it was 'nearly' always on an arcade box that had some sort of action replay device! You know, you could do fireballs in the air, no cooldown for sonic booms that sort of thing. So, I'm guessing that people are remembering matchups on those machines, where Zaingef really could just grab you right at the beginning, and there was nothing you could do about it!

[@universalperson]

Ah, Rainbow Street Fighter

[@Ken-zg3ze]

Is this the answer? @theoryfighter

[@SrSacaninha]

This is what I thought as well. Street Fighter de Rodoviária.

[@pandedon]

i remember those in the arcades, those versions will definitely be omitted in the match-up bracket data for sure

[@KevboKev]

I remember one of the arcade boxes had a glitch that would allow you as Ryu (probably Ken, too) that once you took away more of the enemy's life than yours, you can jump, do a helicopter kick, keep mashing the button, and you would float to the top of the screen and pop up near the bottom and you could keep going up. However, once you were up even just one screen, it was like you were completely off, as the enemy could not attack you at all. When time ran out, you won by default, and you would fall rapidly through all the screens you went up.

[@GustavoSilva-ny8jc]

4:06 Respect the commitment brotha. It's the kind of thing a help would be the best tho, what could take days might be done in 1 or 2h.

[@CB66941]

That SPD range on one of the versions is as if Honda teleported into Zangief's arms for an upside down hug

[@LIONTAMER3D]

In Super Street Fighter 2 (not super turbo) Zangief has full-screen SPD range, one frame only =)

[@CB66941]

@@LIONTAMER3D now you got me interested. Does that have video proof? I know with Sim it's possible

[@LIONTAMER3D]

@@CB66941 you can block projectiles @ full screen & spd counter anybody @@CB66941 kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppurY4ttnK-An80 I stand corrected: you CAN do it in super turbo with O. Zangief

[@LIONTAMER3D]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6LJlq1_Yr2jjpI 1 frame window

[@CB66941]

@@LIONTAMER3D lol the quality of the first one. I think I saw this before in a Zangief compilation. Thanks!

[@Zetact_]

I severely doubt it. Even in the messy dev cycles of the 90s I really don't think that anyone on staff would look at the hitbox of SPD and allow it to reach anyone at the start of the round. Glitches can exist but they tend to be based on doing weird stuff that that confuses the game and in SF2 they seem to mostly involve hit boxes disappearing when they have boxes getting involved and not moving. The only glitch I could see working for is if there was some glitch that caused the starting position to be a little closer between characters.

[@mydemon]

Its been proven true: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@TheBlueArcher]

YES! I"VE BEEN TESTING EVERY WW I"VE COME ACROSS FOR YEARS SINCE I FIRST HEARD OF THIS ABOUT 6 OR 7 YEARS AGO AND NEVER CAME ACROSS IT! I WILL ADD $100 CAD IF SOMEONE CAN GET VIDEO FOOTAGE FOR THIS

[@Rayuzx]

twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@TheBlueArcher]

@@Rayuzx Yeah I was notified on twitter within minutes of her posting that. I've already been in contact with her. Paypal didn't want to convert to BRL so I was checking whether she wanted USD, or something else.

[@ghin780]

That's weird because I remember playing Turbo and Honda could basically walk around using hundred hand slap and make it so you as Zangief could never be in a position to hit him out of it.

[@listerofsmeg884]

Remember when SF2 first came to the SNES , people were always refering to Zangrief, because he was such a tough character to master. Clearly over the decades, that changed

[@marcellachine5718]

I remember in about 1994, I was at an arcade, an older kid challenged me as I was playing the computer. He said choose which character he was. I smugly said zagnief. Well my chung li got her ass handed to her. Never saw someone use zagnief like that till then.

[@shrikelet]

Could such a glaring oversight slip through Capcom's testing process? Thank you, I'll be here all night.

[@orbitaljellyfish808]

Great vid 👏👏 My guess is Honda walked into it and people remember it as round start It is a ridiculously distant grab after all

[@Ciara0]

Your content consistently gets better all the time. Great stuff

[@Prisoner-jf8vi]

As a kid growing up in Brooklyn that I was straight up punching with Chun Li and no one could beat me. It was the light jab and she would punch punch and throw you down. . Those were my sf2 glory days

[@stonebeard2194]

So cool of you to put up a bounty and such an interesting story. I’ll fire up the roms that I have just to check. Sending Good Vibes

[@yakovhadash]

The real SPD was the friends we made along the way.

[@sadiceninlordoz4378]

I liked the spirit for chasing a myth. I recall that I could manage KO Sagat with only 2 LP DPs with perfect timing by whiff punishing his tiger uppercut in SF2 World Warrior. I searched it but there is no footage of that. It may be a good challenge to record that one.

[@TheSpectre2300]

That's not farfetched. Sagat DID take double damage if you punished a whiffed Uppercut in World Warrior.

[@sadiceninlordoz4378]

@@TheSpectre2300 Fair enough, I know it is not a rumor but my point is I am not a good player and could not do it again and also couldn't find any footage of it with perfect KO.

[@paulguthrie6736]

Have u seen the damage from blanka,s roll into a dragon punch it’s about 70%

[@TheSpectre2300]

@@paulguthrie6736 Indeed I have!

[@PsychokoreUndergroundRap]

On the SNES.. Honda always wins against Zangief. Because Zangief can't jump high enough to get over the 1000 hands attack. You might get lucky from time to time to get a sweep in. But if the Honda player mashes high and fierce, its basically impossible. The only saving grace in sf2 on the snes is, that honda can't move forward like in turbo with that move.

[@joseluki]

That piledriver range is wild.

[@JannPoo]

It's amazing how certain myths about video games spread and everyone accepts them as facts, until someone asks "but where's the proof"? Another one that I was convinced was true was the aggression level overflow bug of Ghandi in Civilization. There's a whole article about that on Wikipedia.

[@NathanMarchandAuthor]

I was expecting the 10-0 matchup to be in Honda’s favor. In SFII, he can’t jump over Honda’s Hundred-Hand Slap.

[@joshdavis8381]

So, 6 months later, has anyone been able to find this? I'm really curious. I occasionally rewatch this video, not just because it's interesting on its own, but to look at the comments to see if something was finally found on it.

[@SolidSonicTH]

Someone did, actually, and claimed the bounty. I don't know if there's a KZbin video of it, though. It's on an early version of the SNES game.

[@0f128]

Svc is a damn underrated game there should be a 2nd one someday

[@huevonesunltd]

It was broken as hell but it had it's charm Just like SF2 but not as broken

[@0f128]

@@huevonesunltd sf2 is even worse broken wise but fun as hell

[@LIONTAMER3D]

I'd rather have cvs3

[@TheTrueBro]

SvC isn't underrated at all. Latinamerica, China and Mid west play it like hell. It's a broken unpolished mess though. It needed more development time.

[@LIONTAMER3D]

@@0f128 it's broken in a fun way, like roll cancelation in cvs2

[@Gelwain]

I enjoy your process of ensuring credibility by refusing to dismiss the possibility that it exists. You work though all known vectors, expand your search, and continue. That's a very professional way to do it!

[@CherryPixelBun]

I know the comments mentioned it already but perhaps this came from one of the console ports. Granted World Warrior was only on SNES (not counting the obviously drastically different 8bit and computer ports) but I guess it wouldnt hurt to check the Genesis version of Turbo. Perhaps someone misremembered "Special Champion Edition" (which despite the name was basically just the genesis version of Hyper Fighting) as being one of the early editions

[@Lukmendes]

Someone seems to have done it on the SNES beta version twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@jackcoleman1784]

Man the Genesis port/s were such garbage. I remember years ago I had to explain to my cousin who was ten years younger than me about how the Genesis controller didn't have enough buttons for a six button like SF but still had it anyway. He didn't believe me until I showed him a picture of the controller and booted up a ROM.

[@dimitaraleksandrov6381]

Very interesting. I really like the scientific approach and testing of every version you could find. My personal theory (not proven) - when playing the game as a kid you wanted to win as quickly as possible and start as quickly as possible which usually meant heading in the direction of your opponent, not opposite. Like you said - if Honda moves forward at the start - the SPD chain can start. And afterwards it has just been passed from generation to generation :)

[@Tim85-y2q]

Even with a game this old and effectively obsolete, I would have to imagine at least one person would make a video if it were indeed possible. I suspect this is one of those gaming urban legends that just took on a life of its own.

[@charleswebb1674]

twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@mydemon]

It's been found and the bounty has been paid. The update is in the video's description.

[@Tim85-y2q]

@@mydemon Yes, but it was in the beta, so it's an arguable point how much it counts. I've yet to see evidence it can be done in any version of the game that actually saw release.

[@SyntaxHeir]

I love the dedication. I love the research. Great video. Thank you.

[@unagisauce]

Sean vs Chun-Li: SVC Chaos

[@Thelowestofthelowtiers]

2ndImp Sean vs Everyone in SF: SvC Chaos

[@danobra]

Sean in SvC Chaos? Is this a meme I don't know about?

[@Corpstoucher]

@@danobra it’s a real Game! PS2, XBOX AND DREAMCAST.

[@theonewiththeeyeoftruth884]

Zangief can't do this combo (jump-knee, crouch-jab, SPD) against Ryu or Ken, right? Because they can just Shoryuken, which is invincible and hits anyone out of any move unless he's blocking. Does that jump-knee hit before the Shoryuken can be started by a rising Ryu or Ken?

[@Rapid98k]

It is possible on SNES version

[@axebox]

Some moves increase hitbox. So on round start, if Honda did a move that increased his hitbox while Gief simultaneously did an SPD, theoretically it could connect.

[@mydemon]

Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@routercoach]

There was another one which I only saw once in the arcade many years ago (I was the one that actually did it) - short uppercut with Ryu taking over 3/4 health energy from Blanka when he was using the spinning roll attack. Almost 1 move kill!!

[@Lastjustice]

Early versions had character take critical damage If their special attacks got hit or countered. I remember taking nearly half of Bison's health when he psycho crushered into my electricity as Blanka. The charge back moves seem to be the ones that all suffered from this weakness.

[@hachi666roku]

As someone who used to SPD ryu’s guile, anyone with a fireball - if your opponent’s shadow comes into range with Zangief’s Throw range, you could SPD. If you block the right frame of a move, like Ehonda’s Hard punch / sweep, you can input SPD and before Honda’s done - caught. You also could use the spd as a landing capture, so if you can range yourself out of the jump, direction did not matter, input the SPD and the second the opponent lands, captured. This dominance is why Zangief started getting grab animations and capcom toyed with his technical aspects. If you could not bait zangief players, you lost

[@tw1c_]

Saw this discussion in the Alpha 2 discord. Really hope this gets solved! Edit: yea it was found like, immediately after the video was posted lol

[@LIONTAMER3D]

It's been "solved" a long time ago lol

[@mydemon]

The link has been added in the description. Someone found the version of SF2 where this 10-0 matchup exists.

[@LIONTAMER3D]

@@mydemon it exists in every version lol

[@Ayuima69]

The only thing that makes sense to me is the game was probably an arcade cabinet of one of the "unofficial " knock off versions with broken moves. I can imagine of the didn't have a zangief infinite with a farther range throw.

[@ToastNova]

just looked into it, its from the BETA of the SNES version of WW, no wonder you didnt find it on FBN

[@fezzwheel2572]

Isn't it referenced at www.eventhubs.com/news/2020/jul/22/one-unbeatable-street-fighter-2-zangief-expert-was-reason-character-was-weak-so-long/ **"Regardless of how much we balanced Zangief in-house, this one Zangief expert would win all the time," Okamoto said. Capcom would send employees out to these location tests to take notes on how characters were faring against one another. The calls back to HQ reported that Zangief was strong, explaining that one Zangief player had won 85 times in a row at one point."** So an early version of the game eventually got nerfed

[@Everdistance]

In Dissidia 012 for the PSP, Jecht vs Emperor is 0-10 in Emperor's favor on most tier lists. Granted that game never really had much of a competitive scene for a variety of reasons, but it's the only time I've ever seen a 0-10 matchup that didn't involve a banned character.

[@zero123alpha6]

Why?

[@tinyhowie]

I did that all the time with Zangief when I was a kid in arcade centers. It has a requirement, your opponent has to do something to expand his hitbox. Ryu always starts with a Hadoken, grab. On high difficulty Honda will use Hand Slap as first move, grab. If any of these didn't happen. You won't get it. Back in the days arcade centers loved to wind up the difficulty which it always have some moves at the start. If it's not a jump or moving back, you can pull this trick.

[@EastyyBlogspot]

Not a hacked version like black belt or rainbow edition ?

[@mydemon]

Its been proven true on the SNES Beta version; mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@brainysmurf74]

There was a glitch in Super SF 2 turbo where if Z gets hit by a projectile he can go straight to piledriver even if the opponant is on the other side of the screen.

[@Majkels]

MANDELA EFFECT SPOTTED

[@mattryan7124]

Funny thing is I remember doing all those soft lock, crash, and other glitches on original sf2. Especially with Guile, dhalsim, etc.

[@neontetra1000]

Did you try it with Honda crouch blocking? It may make his hurt box thicker.

[@kevingriffith6011]

That might get the round-start SPD, but not in a way that would create the legendary 10-0 matchup, as all Honda players would have to do to avoid it would be t o not crouch-block to start.

[@ThePallidor]

It would explain the mistaken memory though.

[@jackburton3212]

I seem to recall seeing a video where zanguief would pile drive people from across the screen but that would require him to move back to put some distance between characters.

[@wrentheenby]

babe wake up new theory fighter video

[@nottobay6768]

Aaaa, funny seeing you here. 😃

[@DBear789]

This is gonna sound random but when I was a kid I was on holiday in Spain and I completed the street fighter 2 arcade game in the hotel. I used guile and I figured out a way to throw a very slow sonic boom thing and you could cover the screen in them. Once the first one hit you could just load up loads of very slow sonic booms and the opponent could not escape. It was so strange that I’ve remembered it to this day:

[@Mascabar]

That’s rainbow edition, it’s an unofficial mod of the game that has a bunch of really dumb stuff like that

[@AzraelThanatos]

Considering the setup of the move forward, that actually seems like there might be another explanation that would also cover why the roms aren't working for it. It might have been a hardware bug that was rather minute but uncaught and thought a part of the game, something that has popped up in even modern consoles. Drift...the same things that the Nintendo Switch joy-cons have had since that came out and has been a relatively common mess with just about every joystick to some level over time. Basically, having something going wrong with the stick that it might register movement and start it just enough that it dumps him into range for it with hardware having the issue.

[@mydemon]

Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@natara1976]

The fact that you re from europe too made me happy. Keep up the good work

[@tonyg_fgc8152]

Be careful man, someone may make a rom hack (modded rom) and sell it to you as the beta. In any case, good video :)

[@firstnamelastname8534]

Holy shit you're right dude

[@mydemon]

The version has been found and verified. You can check the video description for the update.

[@PsychoJosh]

Maybe the round start SPD was on one of the home console versions and Chen mixed that up with the arcade version.

[@denjin_hado]

Could this be possible in the SNES port? Maybe since it's been a long time the games got confused but idk

[@LucasHpm]

We gotta have some people trying now.

[@mydemon]

Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version. The bounty was claimed and discussed here: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@Learnjapanesefromsomeguy]

How is Zangief doing the SPDs without jumping? I thought SNES Zangief not leaving the ground to SPD was something only the computer could do. I always had to jump and while in the air start the 360 motion on the d-pad, or start it while getting up from a knockdown, or something.

[@awc7279]

Pretty sure the rainbow edition can SPD grab from any distance :D

[@daithiocinnsealach1982]

I sort of found myself in this part of KZbin. I'm amazed at the level of interest Street Fighter still draws. I used to play the original SNES version back in the day 30 years ago. Man that makes me start to feel old 😂

[@Anjohl]

I always hated that "cheaty" AI. The CPU should have to play by the same rules the player does!

[@whirl3690]

The video does not mention AI a single time

[@Anjohl]

@@whirl3690 um, that's the whole premise.

[@whirl3690]

No, it actually isn't. You watched the video, no?

[@Anjohl]

@@whirl3690 yes it was, and yes I did

[@whirl3690]

Tell me one of the points of the video that mentions AI.

[@subliminal6969]

It will either be a Kara throw or cancelling the first frames of a jump to slightly increase grab range.

[@mydemon]

Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@AuntBibby]

see, @TheoryFighter you really put in the effort. that's what makes you more trustworthy than the average r/streetfighter edgelord funhater. you tried it in every version of street fighter world warrior, which was probably a really tedious boring task, and then you posted the bounty and request in a bunch of places. there isnt much more you could have done. Real Science is testing things that have already been deemed proven, to see if they still hold up. you are a true FGC scientist, not just a videocreator

[@dargkkast6469]

4:52 I once was against the CPU, and I think the enemy honda (I remember it was a honda) may have moved some pixels forward just before he got grabbed. Maybe that's the secret sauce...

[@squilliam0909]

I thought it’s was gonna be about Dhalsim Gief lmao

[@Switcheroo4542]

The only 10-0 match up I've heard of is Akuma vs Gief in SF2, I expected that lol

[@Grogeous_Maximus]

@@Switcheroo4542 Akuma in SF2? O_o

[@Switcheroo4542]

@@Grogeous_Maximus super turbo, my bad

[@aoisora1445]

what about dhalsim getting grabbed when throwing a punch and hit with a spinning piledriver, or was that just a random bug

[@Brianchse]

There was definitely a version back in the day where if you were on Hondas stage using Guile against Honda that you could do Guiles invisible throw every time right out of the gate and Honda couldn't avoid it. However because you could only do the hold back then forward version of the invisible throw,, Honda would be out of range to get a second invisible throw. It may be possible to hold forward at the beginning and then go back and hit FP FK to get Honda to be thrown toward you instead but I've never been able to get it to work. Maybe someone else has. Anyone else an og guile player who discovered the invisible throw and used it to kill other players without them being able to even do a move? 5 invisible throws in a row, was hard to do, but when you did the people you beat weren't even mad they lost their .25 cents, they were just amazed it happened.

[@Qnzdipset1]

Did you try the console versions?

[@battleboo4u]

found u on reddit. 4:05 is why I subbed. jesus that must have taken eons

[@ShaolinTech_]

Good vid, worthy of an episode of Pop Fiction.

[@JagoShogun]

this is the "babalities, animalities, living-forest-eats-you, purple-rain ninja" of Street Fighter; An urban legend.

[@swagger5979]

Opening with Snk vs capcom chaos my 2nd fav fighting game of all time!!! Nice.

[@MichaelBackwards]

Maybe this myth comes from some Honda’s not moving at the beginning of the match and the Gief player doesn’t realize that he made a step forward and did the spd.

[@mydemon]

Not a myth. Its been proven true: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@willmoua1]

Round start spd? Never heard of it. Playing since 91

[@mydemon]

Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512

[@djslip_irie]

The CPU must do it. It's godly with Zangief. He would bolt forward using the facing direction as start and end the SPD command. The slower circle allows zangief to step forward for half of the command.

[@karue7581]

Wait for people to mod the game just to try and get the bounty

[@TheoryFighter]

That's why the ROM is a requirement!

[@karue7581]

@@TheoryFighter Ohh, gotcha! Very interested to see whether this actually exists or not

[@jimdotcom808]

who remembers Guile's upsidedown roundhouse freeze handcuff and magic throw glitch? damn. i still remember the button sequence 30+years later

[@dantedeloden]

too bad i didnt get that 100 dollars, someone posted an hour before i found this

[@M-E-G-A]

In the Turbo Version Zangief bounces higher and away from the opponent making his opponent get up in time to get ready.

[@mattgoo]

mandela effect mannn...

[@avensCL]

What about Rainbow Edition, Turbo and the other games of the series? Back in the day pretty much everybody was a noob, therefore bound to confuse very similar games with each other.

[@mydemon]

Its been proven to work on the SNES beta version: mobile.twitter.com/ElenoreHU3BR/status/1392631406124224512